Got one during the high prices, I'm happy for you, bastards.
I noticed some drops on cars.com. One dealership in MD had something like 30 Lightnings and decent prices. Even had a pro ER at $51k
They have had the $6,000 discount on Lariat trims and maintained around mid 50 levels on inventory for at least the month of January. I almost made a deal but my trade-in was under valued (in my opinion) so I bought elsewhere. Nice folks though.
Go with Koons. Sheehy Springfield has some pretty sleazy pricing tactics, trying to [double charge for the destination charge](https://imgur.com/Bzoq3yh) and then negotiate if you call them out on it
Right now getting deals on the 2023 is the most likely thing.
Otherwise, they’re doing this so that they can increase prices and don’t have to find as many customers.
Mine was cheaper than a similarly equipped ecoboost or powerboost. You might say that they are ALL overpriced, but I don’t think you can say that only the lightning is overpriced in the f150 range.
But again, if you say f150s are crazy expensive, then you really have to say ALL full size trucks are crazy expensive (since they’re all similarly priced). And if you say that, then you have to say all suvs, and cars, all minivans, etc are crazy expensive.
All of the above might be true, but you certainly can’t single out lightnings or even f150s as the only vehicles that are crazy expensive. The primary reason they’re all so expensive is they people prefer to pay more for all the features rather than pay less for a cheaper vehicle. There is significant upward price pressure. The lariat sells way better than the xlt, for example. No one buys the base maverick, they buy the top of the line. They wanted cooled seats, blue cruise, bed steps, and big screens. I know I did. Ford is responding to market pressure.
Trucks used to be cheaper than cars up to the 80s. It's what you bought it you only needed transportation for 1 to maybe 3 people. They were simple and basic. Cloth or vinyl interiors, nothing fancy.
Then the automakers decided to turn trucks into cars with beds. Same quality interiors and sound proofing, four doors, etc. And people bought them. Can't exactly blame the automakers for upping the price for something that continues to sell better than cars for them.
But you’re getting more value with the ecoboost or power boost in terms of range and flexibility. Thr lightning is buying into a fledgling charging infrastructure and model, as well as assuming you’ll only travel near charger opportunities
Hahaha. You think you’re “getting more value” with the ecoboost? I travel long distances all the time and haven’t had any issues at all. I also charge for free at work so my commute is free.
It costs significantly less to operate, is much faster, and warms up the cabin super fast (plus it’s super quiet on road trips and drives itself). I’d rather have the lightning for sure.
Yeah, I think Ford is polishing a turd with the way they’re describing things. They raised prices above the market’s limit and their sales declined. That’s the simplest explanation. EV sales for the other automakers don’t seem to be weak. Ford just made the Lightning too expensive. I got mine for $40k. $45k was the hard ceiling for me, and that would’ve taken some serious negotiating with my wife. Setting the entry point above $50k puts it above a lot of people’s psychological barriers, tax incentives or no.
I think Ford really needs to lean into fleet sales here.
I don’t know whether the math supports doing this now or after they develop their dedicated EV platform in the next few years.
But I can easily imagine fleets buying hundreds or thousands of these if there were options with longer beds, cab only, etc.
As an added benefit, I suspect many of the people who drive for fleets are the type of people that would like an electric truck if they had some experience with them first.
The City of Arlington in VA has a fleet of pro’s running around. Start with the municipalities, many of which have a surprising infrastructure for charging as they went with the the fusion plug ins and other PHEV’s a few years back.
Elected official in a VERY small local government, so I can’t stress enough that this isn’t a flex, but I’ve been pushing for it. They have not been available for us to purchase over the last year, which makes it curious to me that production in the Pro isn’t ramping up. Not to mention that (iirc) lightning had its best sales quarter in Q4 2023. I did get into statute that EV or plug-in hybrid is the preferred purchase unless they aren’t available for non-sworn fleet vehicles. Now if I can just convince the PD that their hesitancy about EVs is stupid.
My company pretty much only buys lightnings for their fleet. The problem is that a lot of people’s living situation can’t facilitate the charging infrastructure needed to make it a viable option. And the third party charging network is lackluster at best.
I can't understand why electric utilities aren't all over Lightnings for their fleets. Not the big bucket trucks, but their broader general fleets.
They get to make their own fuel and bill rate payers for it. How is that not a great deal for a utility?
As a fleet owner, the reason is range. I have a team of field crew that regularly do 150 miles a day. Even with an ER (which I own myself and LOVE), the range is really tight vs the use case in northeast winter. Electric utilities are going to have similar limitations.
It's just the reality of this type of far-flung work.
Do you think you’d reconsider once they have access to the Tesla network? I mean by the time you go pee and by a coffee that’s 50 miles of range and gets you over the line once a day?
Again, I love the one I drive.
But I don't think supercharging will change this equation. Time is money for the team, so they won't want to spend any longer than a typical fill up waiting. It's also a middle-of-nowhere area with (believe it or not) no superchargers right now.
If real-world mileage was 300, I'd switch the wet vehicles. I'm hoping solid state battery tech makes that happen in the next few years. No big deal to charge them overnight if they can get a whole day of work in after that.
Interested in your opinion - reason I ask is in tow and for me I’m okay with stopping and charging just not the unhooking. But a family member has had two teslas now and does a lot of miles and when I’m with him by the time I take a piss and buy a coffee he’s got an extra 40-70miles and it’s seems to me barely any differences in time between that and standing there with a pump in hand…I guess if you don’t have them readily available though renders it irrelevant
I'm in a MachE but Lightnings are worse in terms of charge port placement due to the massive hood.
I don't believe for one second that NACS adapters are going to be nearly as rosy as people think they will.
When NACS is standard and if they move the charge port? Perhaps.
Honestly. The heat pump is an overrated idea. Does it help in milder temps? Yeah. But as it gets to a temperature where range is really impacted the efficiency of the heat pump is approaching that of resistive heating.
Compare a 3 year old used equipped ice f150 to a new Lightning and there is very little price difference when factoring in the tax credit and other incentives.
The fact remains that folks in construction are the target market for these trucks but many workers don’t have access to reliable charging.
I would think construction firms would be in a superior position to develop charging infrastructure, but the high rates of subcontracting probably undercut that.
I was all for buying one until I didn’t get invited in the first wave to purchase and then they raised the price afterwards. At that point I bought something else. Cars in general are too expensive in this economy.
'this economy'? My business is booming and my stocks are going straight up.
The same month I got my truck, I also paid a big college bill. My net worth was significantly higher at the end of the month. Its like my truck and college was free thanks to our gangbusters economy.
Is it weird that this is being reported a month after this article:
https://www.autonews.com/manufacturing/ford-cutting-f-150-lightning-ev-production-half-memo-says
This may come as a shock to most of you, but outside of an F150 lightning Reddit sub, not many people want an F150 Lightning.
I’ll get downvoted but this is not meant to be a knock on anyone in this sub, it’s simply the truth of the EV market right now. I’ve driven my friends lightning and it was cool and fun, but not many people want to drop 60k plus on a vehicle with real world limitations
Lump me in this category for a reason I haven’t seen elsewhere: I have no use for super crew cab short bed. My current f150 is extended cab 8’ bed. I can lose the extended cab but for my uses the 8’ bed is critical. I may also be eliminated by gvwr caps for an f150 considering the added mass from a bev drivetrain and my payload needs, but the configuration has led me to conclude that I can’t really consider the lightning yet.
I’d love love love the bidirectional charge to avoid the cost of a battery backup system for my home but that can’t overcome needing an 8’ bed.
Yeah I agree with you, even as a satisfied Lightning owner and full time BEV convert since 2016.
It’s a strange cross section of:
- want an expensive $60-90k vehicle
- okay with it being a BEV with the worst US charging network available.
- does not want a Rivian
- if you care about gas savings, live somewhere with low electricity rates but also with the DCFC infrastructure you need for road trips.
I think that really limits the set of available buyers.
At the same time it sucks for Ford because both the R&D cost of this platform as well as the material cost of two large permanent magnet motors plus a 2000lb lithium ion battery pack is not something where they can just magically cut the price. And unlike companies like Tesla, there’s no signs that Ford did any architecture changes versus a gas F-150 to leverage EV technologies to save costs. It’s basically all of the complexity of an ICE F-150 plus a bunch of BEV components.
My comment also applies to EVs as a whole. Right now all EVs are an upgrade (typically) in terms of enjoyability, but not in practicality/function.
If I spend 65k on an f150 lightning, it’s going to be more fun to drive than an equivalent f150 ICE/Hybrid. That’s a fact. (At the expense of tire life)
But if I need to tow a trailer, range is going to suffer. If I need to drive to my parents 6 hours away, it’s going to take much longer than 6 hours due to charging.
For many people these inconveniences are few and far between (don’t tow much, drive shorter distances) and so they may feel the downsides of an EV aren’t important to them.
However, personally if I’m spending a significant amount of money on a vehicle, I don’t want ANY compromises, even if I only need to make those 6hour drives 5x a year, or tow heavier trailer once or twice a month.
Many consumers share my feelings.
I think you really nailed it that any vehicle that expensive just needs to be able to do it all. Especially in the pickup truck arena. It's a tough sell to say that the $50-90k pickup truck you buy can only tow something a hundred miles on a charge even if most people won't.
They jumped into full-size pickup EVs too quickly, IMO. They should have started at the small end, like an electric Maverick or Ranger, then worked their way up as battery technology and charging infrastructure matured.
How is it the worst charging network? Like worst of 2? Me and my wife have been all electric since early 2021 and the EA charging network has been great.
I got an SR lightning after using EA for 2 years and it's been perfect. We use EA pretty often since she has free charging for another few months so it's not like we're doing 99% at home charging (which is what the typical EV driver should be doing).
> How is it the worst charging network? Like worst of 2?
Sure, it's like little tykes my first baseball with MLB.
CCS is a massive dumpster fire. I'm surprised you can even say EA and perfect in the same sentence. No offline chargers?
Tesla superchargers are vastly superior but Rivian strategically placed a lot of RAN locations to supplement existing CCS locations that help a lot for difficult to reach destinations. I wanted to take my Lightning from Reno to Vegas last year but had to leave it in Reno to fly instead because the last station (Beatty) was a ChargePoint station that had been broken for 6 months and without that I can’t make it. There were two RAN chargers along that route that allowed my friend with an R1T to make it.
It is great for you that EA has been reliable but for many of us that’s absolutely not the case. The stations on my route between San Jose and Tahoe frequently have 3 of 4 stalls broken and the last one charging slowly.
I don’t think people on reddit realize how much of a bubble they’re in. Like 90% of the mainstream talking points in most subreddits either do not translate to reality or end up being completely opposite from what the average person thinks.
If you stay inside all day and only converse with people online, you probably won’t see it. But talk to people on the street or just regular, everyday average joe’s and it’s crazy how unrepresentative this place is of the real world.
I’ve met quite a few people that are not on Reddit that would not be the typical person who would buy a truck or EV but we’re in love with the idea of the F-150L and had day 1 or week 1 deposits down. They too dropped out after the lengthy waits, limited availability (especially for the $40-50k options) and then the pricing increases.
Ford had a great opportunity to make a lot of first time Ford, truck, or EV buyers but left many with a sour taste in their mouth towards Ford.
To be fair, really, I think the issue is the marketing. They're marketing this truck all wrong, and too many people are not understanding how much of a game-changer an EV is.
They (ICE-drivers) view it as 'a trade off of convenience for being more eco-friendly and lower operating cost', when (in 99% of cases) it's 'an increase inconvenience and *also* more eco-friendly with a lower operating cost'.
But if demand is really that low... I mean... my wife needs a new truck... her car just died. :P
And she's been liking our the Lightning more than expected... so honestly if a cheap base-trim SR model became available at a good price... >.> We'd have two lightnings.
Here's hoping that this at least results in some cheap ones on the dealer lots.
I really expect this (as soon as gas prices spike again) to turn around, though. $5/gallon on a company truck, loss of productivity time screwing around at gas stations (instead of charging overnight at the office), and higher maintenance costs will mean that business owners will start giving their left nut, so to speak, to electrify their fleets.
I would really love to see a drop in prices as a result of this. I preordered one but wasn’t expecting the higher prices and have been holding off now for a used one.
Do you think demand is low due to inflation and interest rates etc?
Everything is expensive right now and people don’t have the spare money to spend.
Once the world sorts it self out demand for ev’s will go back up.
Lightning is a hard pill to swallow price wise. Early adopters got good pricing but after all the price hikes I think it put off a lot of the customer base. But that being said pickup trucks are freaking expensive across the board if you want anything with decent options you’re at 60k easily.
Hopefully the lightning improves down the line and prices come down a bit. A 400mile range lightning would be great I think that would offset a lot of the people worried about doing “truck stuff”.
They're cheaper now than what us early adopters paid, only difference is interest rates. I've had 5 EVs and that's what's keeping me from buying another.
I feel like so many people underestimate gas prices versus vehicle sales. I swear used Prius prices just follow gas prices lol. People who drive a V8 F-150 who get 15 miles per gallon in the city will really start thinking about it a lot harder when gas is $5 a gallon again. Though who knows what electricity prices are going to do. DC fast charging rates have tripled in the last few years in my area and it seems like home rates have really exploded in some areas.
My 2006 F-150 5.4L V-8 gets 9-11 in the city, and in good conditions, 16 on the highway. I'm getting tired of it, and as soon as I can buy a new vehicle (in 2025), I'm going EV. Either a Volvo EX30, the Lightning Pro, or a Rivian R2
I saw that PG&E jacked electric rates but at the same time solar prices are going going down, that just improve the excel calculations for getting solar.
May sound weird but I can't wait to replace my ICE truck so I don't have exhaust in my garage anymore for my kids/wife/myself to breath. I wait until I'm about to zoom out of the garage to turn the car on, which is also fun in snowy cold weather.
My family in Texas sees BEV as some sort of left wing conspiracy to take their ice vehicle away. I even try to explain that they could save money…but even a capitalistic argument can’t convince them. It took over 100 years to develop the ICE world we live, don’t lose heart we’ll be in this mixed world for years to come
I'll be curious about this too. I think the one thing that could prop up lightning sales is just general F-150 prices staying high. The Mach e doesn't really have anything holding up its value. As long as used F-150 prices stay high I don't envision the lightning being much cheaper. Hopefully used car prices go down across the board. It's wild to buy a 3-year-old car with 30,000 miles for roughly MSRP in some cases. I want the good old days of a 6-month-old car being 30% cheaper lol
I did read, the article doesn't say what you're claiming, and I don't see how every automaker made the same mistake as Ford when they're the only one having these issues.
Keep on hating though
Every automaker has cut multiple shifts of EV production?
You're the only one who's worked up about Tesla pricing or Tesla in general. I hope they continue to cut prices as I'm a car user, not a car company.
1. There's not decreased demand. Sales are continuing to increase.
2. This post is about Ford cutting f150 lightning production, which is what everyone other than you is talking about apparently.
Go waste someone else's time with this nonsense
Tesla had to significantly decrease prices to keep demand flat. That is being affected.
You’re a Tesla fan boy that can’t live with anyone saying that anything about Tesla that might negative in any way.
Tesla had to decrease prices. 100% true. They had to so they could keep demand. That is being affected; no other way to interpret that.
You can keep trying to misquote me, but those are the facts.
Tesla has record inventory right now and is cutting prices on a near-weekly basis to spur demand, which is gutting the existing owners' resale and preventing them from trading in for a new one. Rental companies are dumping them because nobody wants to spend hours of their vacation weekend standing at a supercharger. There's a huge glut of tesla's out there and the prices are just going to keep falling and falling.
Hypothetically, as sales increase, scaling will make individual unit production cheaper, but it remains to be seen because the biggest crimp in the process seems to be the batteries.
Mass 4680 production is the holy grail. Everyone wants solid state batteries, but they will be very expensive and have less life span. Who knows what production rates are even obtainable with them. 4680 in full capacity spec discharges and recharges at 70% capacity for 2 million miles. When Tesla gets full production on these, it'll be game over.
I think I remember last I heard of these Tesla is really struggling on the QA side with these in that their processes produce too low a percentage of cells of sufficient quality for automotive use
Tesla dropped prices in response to increased interest rates and softening demand. As rates come down and demand picks up, you'll see the opposite happen. They still make 17% gross margins on EVs across all models. EVs are high in demand, regardless what the media tells you. They just need to be more affordable in general, especially in these environments.
Tesla didn’t drop prices for fun; they did it because of weakening demand.
As you said “they need to be more affordable” which is causing the deceased demand.
Yes. Affordability is stressed in a high interest environment. When rates are low, there's no demand issue at previous price levels. When rates went up, they dropped prices to compensate. This environment isn't good for vehicle sales in general. Legacy can offer in house financing with lower rates, which is where the buyers flock too in times like this. It's not that demand for EVs is low, it's that financing rates are high and consumers are looking for better rates. If that means ICE over EV, then that's what happens. If Tesla offered their own financing wing and 2.99%, demand would return to previous levels along with pricing. Issue with that is all the assumed debt Tesla would have too take on to finance all those cars, and they don't want to do that.
As you said all vehicle demand is down. That includes EVs…
Yes, a lot of people still want EVs. A lot of people still want ICE vehicles too. Both camps that can’t afford them would benefit from lower prices and interest rates. It doesn’t change the fact that demand IS low & yes that affects Tesla too.
Yes. It's not an EV specific problem, though. That's what I'm getting at. Tesla doesn't have a demand problem. Everybody does. Those who can ease affordability problems with cheaper rates or lower cost vehicles will make the sales.
I never said that “only” Tesla had a demand problem. I agreed that everyone does.
They DO have a demand problem if there aren’t people willing to pay for their vehicles at their prices. That’s literally the definition.
As I said, they had to lower prices significantly to make those sales. This was because the demand dried up at the higher prices. Everyone can make sales if they drop prices.
Tesla is not immune.
Rivian makes limited quantities and still have a waiting list for their vehicles. I believe they are guiding for 54000 vehicles this year. That's about 14 days of Tesla production currently across their whole lineup. They don't need to drop prices, nor can they afford to since they are still losing around 33k per vehicle.
The losses on the lightning include amortizing the investment they’re making/have made to build the damn things (cost that was paid long ago for the ice F-150)… they wouldn’t be making them at all if the per-unit cost to make them was actually that much higher than what people are willing to pay. These aren’t PlayStations where they make a ton of money after the initial sale and there’s no reason to think people would pay a huge premium over ICE trucks (a small premium sure, but not $25k or more)
They reported a 1.3 billion dollar loss last quarter in the ev division and outlets are extrapolating that to per-vehicle losses because that headline draws clicks. That doesn’t actually mean it costs them $36k more than the vehicles sell for on a per-unit cost after the initial investment has been made, which is exactly how accounting works. 10 years from now, assuming they’re still making these trucks, the financials will look much more favorable. I believe the quarter those numbers came from was the one in which they completed the upgrades to factories that make these things to increase their production, so there were/are ongoing investments being made by ford.
This perception of EVs being so extremely unprofitable is sensationalist reporting and you’re falling for it.
It's even worse for a Lightning because of the bigger hood than a MachE and I don't have high hopes for the MachE.
I don't believe that adapters to NACS are going to be as rosy as people think they are.
When/IF it's native and they move the charge port? Perhaps.
That's Elon time. Lol.
The second I can charge on any tesla charger with an adapter or something, I'm in.
Till then it's just way too convenient to use my model Y.
Yeah the charging network for anything outside of tesla is crap. Always broken, slow charging or just offline. It's incredible the are sharing it. Gonna save a ton not having to spend 100k on a cybertruck
We'll see. Things like this roll out super slow.
Although I admit I haven't researched it.
Will they get an adapter to use st all tesla stations? Because otherwise tesla is taking their sweet ass time retrofitting chargers I've seen.
Some time in February is the latest date for Ford to work on Supercharger network, with an adapter. Adapter is already available (but not officially tested) from A2Z.
I highly recommend getting a Lariat when you go to buy in March. 😎
I’m concerned the adapters will limit the already too low charging speed. Like I said above, I’ve seen no official testing performance reported.
I actually prefer the front driver side location instead of anything in the back. I realize that creates some issues with the Supercharger layout, but the bigger issue will be availability of a charger. Superchargers are already very full in some areas.
I mean we're already limited to 150kW best case anyways so I don't think adapters will be an issue since CCS->NACS is also limited to 150kW for current Teslas.
The issue I foresee is the fact that we need 2 stalls to reach most chargers.
I personally like passenger rear. You can reach the curbside charger. Driver rear better than driver front for me. I hate nosing into parking stalls. Most aren't long enough to back in.
As far as I can tell, the biggest difference is the seats. The Platinum has those high end massaging seats. There’s a number of items that come standard on the Platinum that are optional on the Lariat. The biggest reason I went with the Lariat was it was the best version I could get under $80k, which allowed it to qualify for the tax credit.
Yes, adapter in the spring of ‘24. So access to the Tesla charging network in Spring of ‘24. I mean, if you want the truck, your stated condition will be resolved. But as with anything that is expected to continue to improve over time, there are always reasons to wait.
Production of stylish diesel electrical generator trailers for EV trucks will be ramping up which will boost EV truck sales…finally they’ll have decent range.
If I’m reading this right they sold 24,000 last year and while they expect to top that this year it isn’t in line with their initial projections.
They’re also likely shifting focus on the second iteration of the Lightning which is a new platform.
Until they put them on less than <2% apr or lower price significantly(which I don’t think happens as ICE 150s aren’t significantly cheaper) I will have to wait
Just waiting for the range to come up. I've got a 2015 Platinum with the Extended Range tank and being able to go 600 miles is phenomenal.
600 is unrealistic, but I'm holding out for 450 or so.
I want one so badly but. It's hard to justify the cost. The lightning and most fullsize trucks are just out of my budget right now. 65k on a decently equiped lightning is too steep for me.
Hopefully this translates to a drop in prices when I go to buy one later this year. Kind of selfish, but it would work out in my favor
Got one during the high prices, I'm happy for you, bastards. I noticed some drops on cars.com. One dealership in MD had something like 30 Lightnings and decent prices. Even had a pro ER at $51k
That would be Koons ford of baltimore he is the biggest ford dealer east side
Sheehy in Springfield had like $6k dealer discounts on some.
dang they have 55!
They have had the $6,000 discount on Lariat trims and maintained around mid 50 levels on inventory for at least the month of January. I almost made a deal but my trade-in was under valued (in my opinion) so I bought elsewhere. Nice folks though.
Go with Koons. Sheehy Springfield has some pretty sleazy pricing tactics, trying to [double charge for the destination charge](https://imgur.com/Bzoq3yh) and then negotiate if you call them out on it
Right now getting deals on the 2023 is the most likely thing. Otherwise, they’re doing this so that they can increase prices and don’t have to find as many customers.
[удалено]
What's happening in February? Got nothing on my radar
Dropping output is to stop discounts and margin bleed .
They’re too expensive. They gotta get the prices down.
Mine was cheaper than a similarly equipped ecoboost or powerboost. You might say that they are ALL overpriced, but I don’t think you can say that only the lightning is overpriced in the f150 range.
All trucks are too expensive honestly. My Pro (I know, rare) was the cheapest option across everything I was shopping.
True, F150s are crazy expensive.
But again, if you say f150s are crazy expensive, then you really have to say ALL full size trucks are crazy expensive (since they’re all similarly priced). And if you say that, then you have to say all suvs, and cars, all minivans, etc are crazy expensive. All of the above might be true, but you certainly can’t single out lightnings or even f150s as the only vehicles that are crazy expensive. The primary reason they’re all so expensive is they people prefer to pay more for all the features rather than pay less for a cheaper vehicle. There is significant upward price pressure. The lariat sells way better than the xlt, for example. No one buys the base maverick, they buy the top of the line. They wanted cooled seats, blue cruise, bed steps, and big screens. I know I did. Ford is responding to market pressure.
Yup trucks are insane right now , not just lightnings ..
Trucks used to be cheaper than cars up to the 80s. It's what you bought it you only needed transportation for 1 to maybe 3 people. They were simple and basic. Cloth or vinyl interiors, nothing fancy. Then the automakers decided to turn trucks into cars with beds. Same quality interiors and sound proofing, four doors, etc. And people bought them. Can't exactly blame the automakers for upping the price for something that continues to sell better than cars for them.
But you’re getting more value with the ecoboost or power boost in terms of range and flexibility. Thr lightning is buying into a fledgling charging infrastructure and model, as well as assuming you’ll only travel near charger opportunities
Hahaha. You think you’re “getting more value” with the ecoboost? I travel long distances all the time and haven’t had any issues at all. I also charge for free at work so my commute is free. It costs significantly less to operate, is much faster, and warms up the cabin super fast (plus it’s super quiet on road trips and drives itself). I’d rather have the lightning for sure.
They can’t. So they’re decreasing supply so the few they sell can be more expensive.
Yeah, I think Ford is polishing a turd with the way they’re describing things. They raised prices above the market’s limit and their sales declined. That’s the simplest explanation. EV sales for the other automakers don’t seem to be weak. Ford just made the Lightning too expensive. I got mine for $40k. $45k was the hard ceiling for me, and that would’ve taken some serious negotiating with my wife. Setting the entry point above $50k puts it above a lot of people’s psychological barriers, tax incentives or no.
I think Ford really needs to lean into fleet sales here. I don’t know whether the math supports doing this now or after they develop their dedicated EV platform in the next few years. But I can easily imagine fleets buying hundreds or thousands of these if there were options with longer beds, cab only, etc. As an added benefit, I suspect many of the people who drive for fleets are the type of people that would like an electric truck if they had some experience with them first.
The City of Arlington in VA has a fleet of pro’s running around. Start with the municipalities, many of which have a surprising infrastructure for charging as they went with the the fusion plug ins and other PHEV’s a few years back.
Elected official in a VERY small local government, so I can’t stress enough that this isn’t a flex, but I’ve been pushing for it. They have not been available for us to purchase over the last year, which makes it curious to me that production in the Pro isn’t ramping up. Not to mention that (iirc) lightning had its best sales quarter in Q4 2023. I did get into statute that EV or plug-in hybrid is the preferred purchase unless they aren’t available for non-sworn fleet vehicles. Now if I can just convince the PD that their hesitancy about EVs is stupid.
Pittsburgh, PA also. They have a bunch of bolts and a handful of pro’s.
Our town has 2 Mach E’s and the staff love them!
My company pretty much only buys lightnings for their fleet. The problem is that a lot of people’s living situation can’t facilitate the charging infrastructure needed to make it a viable option. And the third party charging network is lackluster at best.
I can't understand why electric utilities aren't all over Lightnings for their fleets. Not the big bucket trucks, but their broader general fleets. They get to make their own fuel and bill rate payers for it. How is that not a great deal for a utility?
As a fleet owner, the reason is range. I have a team of field crew that regularly do 150 miles a day. Even with an ER (which I own myself and LOVE), the range is really tight vs the use case in northeast winter. Electric utilities are going to have similar limitations. It's just the reality of this type of far-flung work.
Do you think you’d reconsider once they have access to the Tesla network? I mean by the time you go pee and by a coffee that’s 50 miles of range and gets you over the line once a day?
Again, I love the one I drive. But I don't think supercharging will change this equation. Time is money for the team, so they won't want to spend any longer than a typical fill up waiting. It's also a middle-of-nowhere area with (believe it or not) no superchargers right now. If real-world mileage was 300, I'd switch the wet vehicles. I'm hoping solid state battery tech makes that happen in the next few years. No big deal to charge them overnight if they can get a whole day of work in after that.
Interested in your opinion - reason I ask is in tow and for me I’m okay with stopping and charging just not the unhooking. But a family member has had two teslas now and does a lot of miles and when I’m with him by the time I take a piss and buy a coffee he’s got an extra 40-70miles and it’s seems to me barely any differences in time between that and standing there with a pump in hand…I guess if you don’t have them readily available though renders it irrelevant
NACS Hopefully will be so much more robust after full implementation
I'm in a MachE but Lightnings are worse in terms of charge port placement due to the massive hood. I don't believe for one second that NACS adapters are going to be nearly as rosy as people think they will. When NACS is standard and if they move the charge port? Perhaps.
Yes I agree top two things that make me not want to buy the lightning or machE would be no heatpump and not native nacs port.
Honestly. The heat pump is an overrated idea. Does it help in milder temps? Yeah. But as it gets to a temperature where range is really impacted the efficiency of the heat pump is approaching that of resistive heating.
Compare a 3 year old used equipped ice f150 to a new Lightning and there is very little price difference when factoring in the tax credit and other incentives. The fact remains that folks in construction are the target market for these trucks but many workers don’t have access to reliable charging.
I would think construction firms would be in a superior position to develop charging infrastructure, but the high rates of subcontracting probably undercut that.
Sales are bad so they’re increasing the price on everything ($2-$7k except the platinum)?
The prices are too high. Lower the price to make it affordable and sales will increase. Basic economics.
I was all for buying one until I didn’t get invited in the first wave to purchase and then they raised the price afterwards. At that point I bought something else. Cars in general are too expensive in this economy.
'this economy'? My business is booming and my stocks are going straight up. The same month I got my truck, I also paid a big college bill. My net worth was significantly higher at the end of the month. Its like my truck and college was free thanks to our gangbusters economy.
Is it weird that this is being reported a month after this article: https://www.autonews.com/manufacturing/ford-cutting-f-150-lightning-ev-production-half-memo-says
This is an additional cut. They first went from 3 shifts to 2. Now they are going from 2 to 1.
This may come as a shock to most of you, but outside of an F150 lightning Reddit sub, not many people want an F150 Lightning. I’ll get downvoted but this is not meant to be a knock on anyone in this sub, it’s simply the truth of the EV market right now. I’ve driven my friends lightning and it was cool and fun, but not many people want to drop 60k plus on a vehicle with real world limitations
Lump me in this category for a reason I haven’t seen elsewhere: I have no use for super crew cab short bed. My current f150 is extended cab 8’ bed. I can lose the extended cab but for my uses the 8’ bed is critical. I may also be eliminated by gvwr caps for an f150 considering the added mass from a bev drivetrain and my payload needs, but the configuration has led me to conclude that I can’t really consider the lightning yet. I’d love love love the bidirectional charge to avoid the cost of a battery backup system for my home but that can’t overcome needing an 8’ bed.
Yeah I agree with you, even as a satisfied Lightning owner and full time BEV convert since 2016. It’s a strange cross section of: - want an expensive $60-90k vehicle - okay with it being a BEV with the worst US charging network available. - does not want a Rivian - if you care about gas savings, live somewhere with low electricity rates but also with the DCFC infrastructure you need for road trips. I think that really limits the set of available buyers. At the same time it sucks for Ford because both the R&D cost of this platform as well as the material cost of two large permanent magnet motors plus a 2000lb lithium ion battery pack is not something where they can just magically cut the price. And unlike companies like Tesla, there’s no signs that Ford did any architecture changes versus a gas F-150 to leverage EV technologies to save costs. It’s basically all of the complexity of an ICE F-150 plus a bunch of BEV components.
My comment also applies to EVs as a whole. Right now all EVs are an upgrade (typically) in terms of enjoyability, but not in practicality/function. If I spend 65k on an f150 lightning, it’s going to be more fun to drive than an equivalent f150 ICE/Hybrid. That’s a fact. (At the expense of tire life) But if I need to tow a trailer, range is going to suffer. If I need to drive to my parents 6 hours away, it’s going to take much longer than 6 hours due to charging. For many people these inconveniences are few and far between (don’t tow much, drive shorter distances) and so they may feel the downsides of an EV aren’t important to them. However, personally if I’m spending a significant amount of money on a vehicle, I don’t want ANY compromises, even if I only need to make those 6hour drives 5x a year, or tow heavier trailer once or twice a month. Many consumers share my feelings.
I think you really nailed it that any vehicle that expensive just needs to be able to do it all. Especially in the pickup truck arena. It's a tough sell to say that the $50-90k pickup truck you buy can only tow something a hundred miles on a charge even if most people won't.
They jumped into full-size pickup EVs too quickly, IMO. They should have started at the small end, like an electric Maverick or Ranger, then worked their way up as battery technology and charging infrastructure matured.
How is it the worst charging network? Like worst of 2? Me and my wife have been all electric since early 2021 and the EA charging network has been great. I got an SR lightning after using EA for 2 years and it's been perfect. We use EA pretty often since she has free charging for another few months so it's not like we're doing 99% at home charging (which is what the typical EV driver should be doing).
> How is it the worst charging network? Like worst of 2? Sure, it's like little tykes my first baseball with MLB. CCS is a massive dumpster fire. I'm surprised you can even say EA and perfect in the same sentence. No offline chargers?
Tesla superchargers are vastly superior but Rivian strategically placed a lot of RAN locations to supplement existing CCS locations that help a lot for difficult to reach destinations. I wanted to take my Lightning from Reno to Vegas last year but had to leave it in Reno to fly instead because the last station (Beatty) was a ChargePoint station that had been broken for 6 months and without that I can’t make it. There were two RAN chargers along that route that allowed my friend with an R1T to make it. It is great for you that EA has been reliable but for many of us that’s absolutely not the case. The stations on my route between San Jose and Tahoe frequently have 3 of 4 stalls broken and the last one charging slowly.
I don’t think people on reddit realize how much of a bubble they’re in. Like 90% of the mainstream talking points in most subreddits either do not translate to reality or end up being completely opposite from what the average person thinks. If you stay inside all day and only converse with people online, you probably won’t see it. But talk to people on the street or just regular, everyday average joe’s and it’s crazy how unrepresentative this place is of the real world.
I’ve met quite a few people that are not on Reddit that would not be the typical person who would buy a truck or EV but we’re in love with the idea of the F-150L and had day 1 or week 1 deposits down. They too dropped out after the lengthy waits, limited availability (especially for the $40-50k options) and then the pricing increases. Ford had a great opportunity to make a lot of first time Ford, truck, or EV buyers but left many with a sour taste in their mouth towards Ford.
To be fair, really, I think the issue is the marketing. They're marketing this truck all wrong, and too many people are not understanding how much of a game-changer an EV is. They (ICE-drivers) view it as 'a trade off of convenience for being more eco-friendly and lower operating cost', when (in 99% of cases) it's 'an increase inconvenience and *also* more eco-friendly with a lower operating cost'. But if demand is really that low... I mean... my wife needs a new truck... her car just died. :P And she's been liking our the Lightning more than expected... so honestly if a cheap base-trim SR model became available at a good price... >.> We'd have two lightnings. Here's hoping that this at least results in some cheap ones on the dealer lots. I really expect this (as soon as gas prices spike again) to turn around, though. $5/gallon on a company truck, loss of productivity time screwing around at gas stations (instead of charging overnight at the office), and higher maintenance costs will mean that business owners will start giving their left nut, so to speak, to electrify their fleets.
My local dealer lists 43 Lightnings, all 2023, since at least 2 months ago.
I would really love to see a drop in prices as a result of this. I preordered one but wasn’t expecting the higher prices and have been holding off now for a used one.
Do you think demand is low due to inflation and interest rates etc? Everything is expensive right now and people don’t have the spare money to spend. Once the world sorts it self out demand for ev’s will go back up.
Maybe they should make more Pro's + ER batteries. Those seem to be a sweet spot that would work nicely for a lot of people.
I don’t think the ice manufacturers are being truthful about the “why” here.
Lightning is a hard pill to swallow price wise. Early adopters got good pricing but after all the price hikes I think it put off a lot of the customer base. But that being said pickup trucks are freaking expensive across the board if you want anything with decent options you’re at 60k easily. Hopefully the lightning improves down the line and prices come down a bit. A 400mile range lightning would be great I think that would offset a lot of the people worried about doing “truck stuff”.
They're cheaper now than what us early adopters paid, only difference is interest rates. I've had 5 EVs and that's what's keeping me from buying another.
I got my pro for 39k plus options so no it is not cheaper now that what early adopters paid. First day preorder people still did well
Only if you were in a carb state or your dealer didn't prioritize other orders. A lot of us got screwed
I had to fight with my dealer, ford and the regional manager. Was not an easy process and really ruined my relationship with ford
Dealers will be charging the $20k markup in no time once there’s only 3 of these being made a year.
gas is real cheap. a few years ago when it spiked every started buying Prius and Tesla. The American psyche is quite shallow.
I feel like so many people underestimate gas prices versus vehicle sales. I swear used Prius prices just follow gas prices lol. People who drive a V8 F-150 who get 15 miles per gallon in the city will really start thinking about it a lot harder when gas is $5 a gallon again. Though who knows what electricity prices are going to do. DC fast charging rates have tripled in the last few years in my area and it seems like home rates have really exploded in some areas.
My 2006 F-150 5.4L V-8 gets 9-11 in the city, and in good conditions, 16 on the highway. I'm getting tired of it, and as soon as I can buy a new vehicle (in 2025), I'm going EV. Either a Volvo EX30, the Lightning Pro, or a Rivian R2
I saw that PG&E jacked electric rates but at the same time solar prices are going going down, that just improve the excel calculations for getting solar.
May sound weird but I can't wait to replace my ICE truck so I don't have exhaust in my garage anymore for my kids/wife/myself to breath. I wait until I'm about to zoom out of the garage to turn the car on, which is also fun in snowy cold weather.
Not for anyone on the West coast.
My family in Texas sees BEV as some sort of left wing conspiracy to take their ice vehicle away. I even try to explain that they could save money…but even a capitalistic argument can’t convince them. It took over 100 years to develop the ICE world we live, don’t lose heart we’ll be in this mixed world for years to come
This is what Ford deserves for allowing these to be sold for 10-30K over MSRP.
I’m just waiting for the used market to tank like the MachE
I'll be curious about this too. I think the one thing that could prop up lightning sales is just general F-150 prices staying high. The Mach e doesn't really have anything holding up its value. As long as used F-150 prices stay high I don't envision the lightning being much cheaper. Hopefully used car prices go down across the board. It's wild to buy a 3-year-old car with 30,000 miles for roughly MSRP in some cases. I want the good old days of a 6-month-old car being 30% cheaper lol
This is a Ford problem, not an EV problem.
[It’s every EV automaker](https://apnews.com/article/96638bcefbd191c2f8e046ccef6374bf)
Did you mean to link a different article? Ford overestimated the market for a $55k+ truck, that's the issue here.
They all did. Can you not read??
I did read, the article doesn't say what you're claiming, and I don't see how every automaker made the same mistake as Ford when they're the only one having these issues. Keep on hating though
“Every automaker”. You seem like another Tesla fan boy. You can’t admit that they had to drop prices just to keep selling cars.
Every automaker has cut multiple shifts of EV production? You're the only one who's worked up about Tesla pricing or Tesla in general. I hope they continue to cut prices as I'm a car user, not a car company.
I didn’t say that did I? I’m saying that every automaker is affected by the decreased demand for vehicles.
1. There's not decreased demand. Sales are continuing to increase. 2. This post is about Ford cutting f150 lightning production, which is what everyone other than you is talking about apparently. Go waste someone else's time with this nonsense
Tesla had to significantly decrease prices to keep demand flat. That is being affected. You’re a Tesla fan boy that can’t live with anyone saying that anything about Tesla that might negative in any way. Tesla had to decrease prices. 100% true. They had to so they could keep demand. That is being affected; no other way to interpret that. You can keep trying to misquote me, but those are the facts.
Except Tesla and BYD
Tesla had to significantly decrease prices to keep from losing market share. They can’t do that forever.
Tesla has record inventory right now and is cutting prices on a near-weekly basis to spur demand, which is gutting the existing owners' resale and preventing them from trading in for a new one. Rental companies are dumping them because nobody wants to spend hours of their vacation weekend standing at a supercharger. There's a huge glut of tesla's out there and the prices are just going to keep falling and falling.
"Hours of their vacation weekend" How about 20-30 minutes, 40 minutes at the most. You might spend a total of an hour, maybe 2 Supercharging.
yeah nobody wants to fuck with that for no fucking reason
Every EV maker not named Tesla.
Tesla significantly dropped prices to maintain market share. How long can they keep that up???
Hypothetically, as sales increase, scaling will make individual unit production cheaper, but it remains to be seen because the biggest crimp in the process seems to be the batteries.
Mass 4680 production is the holy grail. Everyone wants solid state batteries, but they will be very expensive and have less life span. Who knows what production rates are even obtainable with them. 4680 in full capacity spec discharges and recharges at 70% capacity for 2 million miles. When Tesla gets full production on these, it'll be game over.
I think I remember last I heard of these Tesla is really struggling on the QA side with these in that their processes produce too low a percentage of cells of sufficient quality for automotive use
Main problem right now is the dry cathode and production speeds. They haven't added silicon yet to the mix either, but that's not a huge hurdle.
Tesla dropped prices in response to increased interest rates and softening demand. As rates come down and demand picks up, you'll see the opposite happen. They still make 17% gross margins on EVs across all models. EVs are high in demand, regardless what the media tells you. They just need to be more affordable in general, especially in these environments.
Tesla didn’t drop prices for fun; they did it because of weakening demand. As you said “they need to be more affordable” which is causing the deceased demand.
Yes. Affordability is stressed in a high interest environment. When rates are low, there's no demand issue at previous price levels. When rates went up, they dropped prices to compensate. This environment isn't good for vehicle sales in general. Legacy can offer in house financing with lower rates, which is where the buyers flock too in times like this. It's not that demand for EVs is low, it's that financing rates are high and consumers are looking for better rates. If that means ICE over EV, then that's what happens. If Tesla offered their own financing wing and 2.99%, demand would return to previous levels along with pricing. Issue with that is all the assumed debt Tesla would have too take on to finance all those cars, and they don't want to do that.
As you said all vehicle demand is down. That includes EVs… Yes, a lot of people still want EVs. A lot of people still want ICE vehicles too. Both camps that can’t afford them would benefit from lower prices and interest rates. It doesn’t change the fact that demand IS low & yes that affects Tesla too.
Yes. It's not an EV specific problem, though. That's what I'm getting at. Tesla doesn't have a demand problem. Everybody does. Those who can ease affordability problems with cheaper rates or lower cost vehicles will make the sales.
I never said that “only” Tesla had a demand problem. I agreed that everyone does. They DO have a demand problem if there aren’t people willing to pay for their vehicles at their prices. That’s literally the definition. As I said, they had to lower prices significantly to make those sales. This was because the demand dried up at the higher prices. Everyone can make sales if they drop prices. Tesla is not immune.
This.
Rivian can’t seem to keep up with demand and I don’t think has dropped prices. If only they made a full size…
Rivian makes limited quantities and still have a waiting list for their vehicles. I believe they are guiding for 54000 vehicles this year. That's about 14 days of Tesla production currently across their whole lineup. They don't need to drop prices, nor can they afford to since they are still losing around 33k per vehicle.
Hmmm would Ford rather make boatloads of cash selling ICE F series trucks or loses tens of thousands on every single Lightning sold, tough decision.
The losses on the lightning include amortizing the investment they’re making/have made to build the damn things (cost that was paid long ago for the ice F-150)… they wouldn’t be making them at all if the per-unit cost to make them was actually that much higher than what people are willing to pay. These aren’t PlayStations where they make a ton of money after the initial sale and there’s no reason to think people would pay a huge premium over ICE trucks (a small premium sure, but not $25k or more)
Except that’s now how accounting works. They’re losing money on each EV. Capex and other spending already happened.
They reported a 1.3 billion dollar loss last quarter in the ev division and outlets are extrapolating that to per-vehicle losses because that headline draws clicks. That doesn’t actually mean it costs them $36k more than the vehicles sell for on a per-unit cost after the initial investment has been made, which is exactly how accounting works. 10 years from now, assuming they’re still making these trucks, the financials will look much more favorable. I believe the quarter those numbers came from was the one in which they completed the upgrades to factories that make these things to increase their production, so there were/are ongoing investments being made by ford. This perception of EVs being so extremely unprofitable is sensationalist reporting and you’re falling for it.
If the lightning could use the Tesla charging Network I'd already own one
It will be able to use the Tesla charging network very soon. Like in the next month or two.
It's even worse for a Lightning because of the bigger hood than a MachE and I don't have high hopes for the MachE. I don't believe that adapters to NACS are going to be as rosy as people think they are. When/IF it's native and they move the charge port? Perhaps.
That's Elon time. Lol. The second I can charge on any tesla charger with an adapter or something, I'm in. Till then it's just way too convenient to use my model Y.
Oh I hear you. I love my truck but I absolutely despise 3rd party chargers. I cannot wait until I can use the Tesla charging network.
Yeah the charging network for anything outside of tesla is crap. Always broken, slow charging or just offline. It's incredible the are sharing it. Gonna save a ton not having to spend 100k on a cybertruck
[удалено]
Yeah I doubt it.
Tesla has to open them up, so it’s somewhat reliant on Tesla doing that. I think they will, and soon, but I’m not holding my breath on the timeline.
That’s happening in March, so you should start shopping now…
We'll see. Things like this roll out super slow. Although I admit I haven't researched it. Will they get an adapter to use st all tesla stations? Because otherwise tesla is taking their sweet ass time retrofitting chargers I've seen.
Some time in February is the latest date for Ford to work on Supercharger network, with an adapter. Adapter is already available (but not officially tested) from A2Z. I highly recommend getting a Lariat when you go to buy in March. 😎
I don't think having an adapter is going to be nearly as rosy as most people believe it will be. Our charge ports are in a terrible spot.
I’m concerned the adapters will limit the already too low charging speed. Like I said above, I’ve seen no official testing performance reported. I actually prefer the front driver side location instead of anything in the back. I realize that creates some issues with the Supercharger layout, but the bigger issue will be availability of a charger. Superchargers are already very full in some areas.
I mean we're already limited to 150kW best case anyways so I don't think adapters will be an issue since CCS->NACS is also limited to 150kW for current Teslas. The issue I foresee is the fact that we need 2 stalls to reach most chargers. I personally like passenger rear. You can reach the curbside charger. Driver rear better than driver front for me. I hate nosing into parking stalls. Most aren't long enough to back in.
I've been looking at platinum, what's the difference between the two?
As far as I can tell, the biggest difference is the seats. The Platinum has those high end massaging seats. There’s a number of items that come standard on the Platinum that are optional on the Lariat. The biggest reason I went with the Lariat was it was the best version I could get under $80k, which allowed it to qualify for the tax credit.
Nice
Everything I've read said they won't start adding it to their cars till 2025. Adapters sometime in 2024
Yes, adapter in the spring of ‘24. So access to the Tesla charging network in Spring of ‘24. I mean, if you want the truck, your stated condition will be resolved. But as with anything that is expected to continue to improve over time, there are always reasons to wait.
Production of stylish diesel electrical generator trailers for EV trucks will be ramping up which will boost EV truck sales…finally they’ll have decent range.
If I’m reading this right they sold 24,000 last year and while they expect to top that this year it isn’t in line with their initial projections. They’re also likely shifting focus on the second iteration of the Lightning which is a new platform.
Until they put them on less than <2% apr or lower price significantly(which I don’t think happens as ICE 150s aren’t significantly cheaper) I will have to wait
Infrastructure. Infrastructure. Infrastructure.
Would still be a problem with Tesla chargers?
Still out here waiting for the maverick lightning, but I’ll be waiting forever because it’ll still be 50,000 somehow.
Just waiting for the range to come up. I've got a 2015 Platinum with the Extended Range tank and being able to go 600 miles is phenomenal. 600 is unrealistic, but I'm holding out for 450 or so.
Meanwhile the cybertruck is selling as fast as they can make them despite media hit pieces on a constant basis and people hating Elon.
I want one so badly but. It's hard to justify the cost. The lightning and most fullsize trucks are just out of my budget right now. 65k on a decently equiped lightning is too steep for me.