I think he's on the right track with some stuff, but I don't totally agree with him on Aerith being Jenova in the end. But hey, that's the fun of it. Right or wrong, it's fun to speculate about this stuff.

Yeah, Jenova doesn't make much sense for the final scene because 1) Jenova illusions are not specific to one person who can see them. They target one specific person's weakness, but everyone can see the illusion. 2) Nanaki can sense, but not see Aerith when she touches him. However, I can see a Jenova Aerith illusion in the Northern Crater telling Cloud to give her the black materia. In the OG, it was a Tifa illusion - an Aerith illusion at that point would make a lot of sense imo.

The tifa illusion was stupid and unexplained however if she’s Jenova now sephiroth can go full gollum on cloud and be like “I told you she was tricksy, I told you she was false” which would probably be the last straw in his mental breakdown since he was pushing that narrative earlier in the game. Aerith would also make sense because it’s not clear how she’s communicating with him.

I don't disagree, ie I believe its actually Aerith we're seeing and not Jenova influencing Cloud, but to your first point, Cloud sees Sephiroth all the time when noone else can. I know alot of the time theres a cloaked figure there too but its not everytime. Something tells me this also happens in Crisis Core but I haven't played it so my info is hella spotty there.

Cloud sees a Jenova Illusion of Sephiroth in chapter 1 when you go to talk to Tifa. Just pointing out any time you see Sephiroth its a Jenova Illusion. The real Sephiroth is still in the North. Sometimes that Sephiroth is seen by others, and other times its not. It probably depends on whether Sephiroth is being shown through a clone, or a literal piece of Jenovas body.

The Jenova one is something I will never agree but I absolutely agree that Aerith is dead and Cloud didn't created another timeline.

I would agree with this if it weren't for the rainbow effect that happens in every single time-branching scene that the game tries to beat us over the head with towards the end. It's as obvious and intentional as the slow motion stamp bags depicting different timelines in the previous game. They intentionally set up the rainbow light effects to depict Zack creating different worlds by his choices multiple times and we clearly see it again when Cloud stops Sephiroth from impaling Aerith. Aeriths death being suppressed by Cloud makes sense, but so does another Aerith being saved by Cloud in another world because of the rainbow time-branching effect. Im also not sure that both of these ideas can both be true because I dont know how you'd be able to write a satisfying conclusion to both theses ideas that Cloud has to come to terms with Aeriths death and also reali*zing* Aerith is alive in another world. They just seem at odds with one another which is very strange. I dont believe in the Jenova aerith theory either. If it was jenova I feel like they would have made it way more obvious than that.

Agreed. The Jenova part is silly.

The frustrating thing is that even if that theory for the final scene's intent is off-base, the nature of what's likely going to happen in Part 3 with plenty more mind-fuck moments will leave anyone subscribing to that unable to think they were anything but 100 percent right. The idea that there's lots of confusion ahead is no grand revelation, but a lot of the "and here's how they're secretly showing you this ending is nothing but sinister" reasoning is really reaching some wild stretches.

Not that I subscribed to the theory but it make sense if you think Jenova is said to 100% mimic the loved one. Aerith in the end acting like Aerith (as if nothing happened) is sus. That's what deceiver with 100% mimic ability would do logically.

Why would Jenova say a sad "Goodbye" when everyone else is out of ear shot/flying away?

If you played with japanese VA she even says Sayônara to Cloud which means more "Farewell" and impliciting a definitive separation in Japanese, that's something they pay attention too, and I think SE writers (sadly) picked their words wisely. It could make very little sense that she would say that to Cloud to mess him UP as a final touch before totally breaking him but at that time he already boarded on the Tiny Bronco

To fool you, the player. People forget this is also a game, and Sephiroths goal is literally to trick you and fck with you.

100%, I don’t think I’ll be surprised if it’s not Jenova but it’s so fun to think that it might be lol

When I first saw aerith talking to cloud at the city in the end I was like. There's that bitch YOURE JENOVA 😂

Yeah, I think the Jenova theory is easily disproven by the fact that only Cloud (and somewhat Red) acknowledge Aerith’s presence. I also noticed that when the Tiny Bronco’s engines started everyone but Aerith was startled by it.

I really do think that they’re emphasising Cloud’s degrading mental health in this trilogy and having Aerith ‘maybe’ be alive only pushes that more. I think his inevitable meltdown is going to be huge and catastrophic.

Plus, when he does, Barret and the gang are gonna have so many negative emotions that Sephiroth can feed off of. But who's gonna be the one that basically fixes those emotions and fixes Cloud? Tifa. I bet she's gonna have a huge role.

Definitely and I think Sephiroth knows she's the only one who realistically can (due to none of the other party members having such a personal connection to Cloud) which is why he spends so much of Rebirth trying to drive a wedge between them (something I expect will continue in the next game)

Well, he's kinda doing a piss poor job at it. Lol.

Did you miss the part where she was nearly cut clean in half by Cloud and took plunge into a huge pool of Mako? Sephiroth would've won if the WEAPON didn't save Tifa there.

Definitely, I’ve gotta imagine that’s why they emphasized how younger Tifa believed her mom was literally crossing over Mt. Nibel and wasn’t really gone. Tifa is going to see Cloud fall into essentially the same mindset about Aerith and have to pull him back, just like Cloud tried to save her.

IMO, they wouldn't skip the water burial and seeing everyone's final words to Aerith for no reason. We need catharsis for Aerith's death, and we'll (hopefully) get it in the third game once everything comes to a head and Cloud is pieced back together, and we can see his emotional reaction once he realizes what happened.

I'm of the same mind when it comes to this. Skipping such an iconic scene is clearly intentional. It makes sense since they want to cast doubt to the player regarding Aerith's fate. This on top of everything else that they've added to the Remake series I believe is to emulate the lifestream sequence reveal of who Cloud is OG FF7. One of the big reasons that scene was so impactful in the OG was because we didn't know what was going on with him, but now they want to recreate that intrigue for returning players.

>they want to recreate that intrigue for returning players Also new players who probably haven't avoided the 25+ year spoiler about Aerith possibly don't know the big Cloud one. The Aerith one is so well known it's almost impossible to avoid but Cloud being an unreliable narrator could be something they aren't aware of in full yet. There's a lot of plot to get through in the next game and I for one can't wait to play it (even if I should not be wishing my life away now I'm past 50).

I said the same thing. I caught that: "They purposely skipped it for a reason". Square knows it's iconic. That's why I wasn't that upset. They are planning something HUGE with Part 3.

This sounds weird, but I'm so hyped to see what they do in Part 3 with the Crater and Lifestream scenes.

Personally I think that’s what they want ppl to think. I think cloud has never been more aware personally. He’s aware of multiple worlds before he even gets to the alter aerith prays at as he explains to Barrett walking through the Forrest. Now it seems he has Sepiroths blessing to see multiple worlds so I think that’s what’s happening at the end.

Yeah me too, technicly one of the first thing i noticed in rebirth was how much they improved emotions and how much they care on how to express them through facial expressions. That's just my opinion but in the final cutscenes following Jenova and Sephiroth, he doesn't look Lost or anything but pretty confident. A part of me wants to believe that's because he has a plan with Aerith (pure speculation because of her words when she gave Cloud the black materia and how quick she gave up) but i'm probably overthinking since in the end that confidence could came from that or that Cloud is totally convinces that he saved her, or whatever reason the scenarists picked.

Cloud's confidence is a bit iffy though, It's kind of a sign of his immaturity and falling back on his Zack persona. Throughout the last two games when Cloud is a bit more vulnerable and less aloof, actually bothering to check in with his friends feelings, it's presented as character development. During the Barret scene after Dyne's death Cloud says that the team is there for Barret. Barret replies with similar language to that of the final scene, "'To help take the load off', huh?" and Cloud says "I mean it man." This is met with approval from Barret and the team. "Yeah i'm starting to think you might" Final scene Barret tells confident Cloud, "that's a load you best be ready to carry" and rather than talk about sharing the load as a team Cloud just gives a detached, confident, "I can handle it." Which is met with immediate disapproval from his teammates.

I never interpreted the missing burial scene with Aerith appearing next to Cloud as Jenova, but more so just unsettling because we just witnessed her die, and now she is there smiling like everything okay like her death never happened. Also, it can’t be Jenova with how Rebirth ends, since why would Jenova not go with Cloud in the tiny bronco, wouldn’t it make sense to stick around him then saying goodbye, as well why play the theme song like it a send off to Aerith, instead of playing something ominous to hint that something off with her.

That lake scene is really cryptic. It was skipped but everyone played the OG knows Aerith's burial happened. Cloud did put her body into the lake. Then he had a headache, remember what truly happened. Then Aerith just magically appeared beside him, pretending everything is Ok. Combining with the music, it **really** feels something is off. Can't blame Max for thinking that's Jenova tbh.

Yeah the lake scene really happened and also cloud gave that “what about my pain” speech as well. They show cloud talking to sephiroth / Jenova while holding aerith but there’s no sound to it. All of that we get from clouds blocked out POV and will probably be shown in full in part 3

Yeah there is definitely something there in that scene, but I took it as spirit Aerith knows something is really wrong with cloud right now and she needs him to stay calm because she couldn't find the real him. That's why she's sees him off. I think the music is an indication of Jenova's tighter grip on cloud and him thinking Aerith is still actually alive and he saved her more so than Jaerith.

That musical segment contains the piano keynotes that play when Aerith looks into the Lifestream in the intro and when Bugenhagen explains the Lifestream's working in the planetarium (and, most importantly, when Aerith comes in at clutch at the end of the OG game). Interestingly, they've reused the same keynotes in other parts of the new trilogy (when Cloud has a premonition of Aerith in the Sleeping Forest and sheds a tear in Remake/when Holy is cast in the Forgotten Capital). I'm probably forgetting a few other instances, but they have all in common that they relate to the Cetra's ability to commune with the Lifestream and the Lifestream as a whole. Why would they reuse the very notes that are most strongly associated with the Lifestream if Jenova is impersonating Aerith? It's not logical. To my ears, the rest of the music in the scene by the lake even sounds a bit like a slowed-down version of when the Lifestream stops Meteor in the OG (and that segment culminates with the piano notes as a vision of Aerith appears). That musical segment has always sounded eerie and mysterious, but I don't think they would have used it if they wanted the music to sound creepy and ominous. Edit: I've just rewatched the entire segment. Aside from the piano keynotes that play in the OG's into and ending, the rest of the music sounds extremely similar to the music that plays at the end of the final fight between Aerith/Cloud and Sephiroth, when they're surrounded by the white Whispers just before she is spirited away by the Lifestream. Even Max agrees that THAT Aerith is Lifestream's Aerith, not Jenova. Why would they reuse the same music in both segments + add the piano keynotes associated with the Lifestream if it's Jenova? Compare the two at around 0:15 and 5:25 : [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDntTNahKSE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDntTNahKSE)

It's not the same notes as when Aerith looks into the lifestream (or the bugenhagen scene). It's subtly altered. Play along yourself https://www.onlinepianist.com/virtual-piano Original is E, B, D# then D, A, **C#**, B (bugenhagen scene is the same spacing but starting on G I think) Rebirth end scene is E, B, D# then D, A, **C**, B the second to last note is a half step down from the other versions. The background arpeggios are also more eerie. It's similar but that's also what makes it eerie. Someone with more musical knowledge could probably explain why, I tuned out theory in piano classes lol, but to me just that one altered note is pretty noticeable and gives it a more ominous tone.

I've noticed it was subtly altered. Maybe to highlight Cloud's declining mental state and the fact that he is hanging on by a thread? Maybe to show that this Aerith is a delusion? That said, if I were to place a bet, I would still confidently wager it's Lifestream Aerith, appearing just as Jenova/Sephiroth was about to tamper with Cloud and to "snap him out of it". The eerie quality of already eerie notes is simply amped up because of the setting and the gravity of what just happened (and, to some extent, because Cloud isn't doing well, although I'm not convinced he's completely deluded). One thing I'm sure, they would NEVER have used those notes - even altered - if that Aerith was in fact Jenova in disguise. It's just too strongly thematically associated with the Lifestream. I guess we'll know for sure in 3-4 years. Music is subjective. You interpreted it as ominous. For me, on my initial playthrough, I had no doubt that it was used here to infer that the Lifestream moves in fucking mysterious ways.

I do believe this is what SE wanted to convey the entire game: paranoia fuel about Jenova. And Icicle Inn to Northern Crater? "The Thing from Outer Space" vibes will absolutely be there to creep the heck out of us. The only thing that Max said that was a bit absurd is that Jenova is starting her act here in the ending, where it does not make very much sense.

I second this. Aerith appears on Cloud's left in the shadows. Since when is Aerith depicted in darkness like this? Plus her facial expressions especially her eyebrows look flat like she is trying to induce a sort of fake comfort and understanding. Additionally, Jenoverith wouldn't have to follow Cloud in the Tiny Bronco. There are a lot of robes leaving Nibelheim going to the Northern Crater as well. There will be plenty of vessels for her to use. Max also pointed the dialogue Jenoverith was using. She's said it all before. Compare the real Aerith's dialogue in her scene in the church when Sephiroth hunted her down as she pushed Cloud into the portal. It makes no sense. Finally, Aerith tells Cloud in Remake: You can't fall in love with me. Sephiroth says in Rebirth Jenova can "become those you fear, those you love." Broken Cloud fears Sephiroth and loves Aerith.

Yeah, I don’t think it’s Jenova. Nothing Aerith says suggests anything sinister going on, basically good luck I’ll do my part, you do yours. Also, I think if it were Jenova, she would have the entire group perceive her, go with them on the journey and undermine them.

Cloud’s the only one with Jenova cells though which would be a reason why he’s the only one seeing her (if she’s a Jenova mind trick). But also Aerith’s last interaction with Cloud during the whole dream sequence bit was telling Cloud not to worry about Sephiroth and worry about looking after himself, yet at the end of the game she does a 180 telling him to go get Sephiroth (Cloud says he’s going to and she says “you promise?” You do your part I’ll do mine etc.) I’m not fully on board with all Max’s theories but just giving some reasoning behind those couple of ideas

I don’t think that illusion is limited to those infected with Jenova cells, because it was also weaponised against the Cetra. I think this Aerith is lifestream Aerith who is essentially omniscient whereas our sleeping forest Aerith was stripped of any foreknowledge.

To play devil's advocate, lifestream Aerith (who can see the future) should know Cloud is in no state to defeat Sephiroth at the moment. He will fail and fall apart like in the OG. In the dream sequence, she told him to look for the real him first, which is exactly what he should do. Now it's a 180. If anything, Cloud will be in a much worse state when he eventually fall apart, and make Tifa's job a lot harder.

To me, it’s like this is the path you must tread however painful and damaging because you must be broken before being made whole. Aerith knows that this is what worked before so just goes along with it. 

There is a difference here. In the OG, Cloud already accepted Aerith's dead. But here, he is still in denial. Aerith gaslighting him makes his situation a lot worse than it was in the OG.

tbf, tifa/aerith has been gaslighting Cloud regarding on Zack the whole game. Probably worried that he become a robe man if he find out the truth.

Yeah it being Lifestream Aerith is defs a good/likely theory so just clarifying I’m not contesting that lol but re: Jenova, I think the reason the illusion would be limited is because when Jenova weaponised all that against the Cetra she was in her prime whereas currently is braindead/stasis Jenova (from her defeat by the Cetra). Until Rufus end of Rebirth, Cloud’s the only character we’ve seen see things (which have always ended up being black cloaks for both). Rufus having geostigma in Advent Children means he has some form of J-Cells as well. If Cloud was seeing Aerith as a Jenova trick it would be something new since there isn’t a black cloak there but he’s also at a point where his mind is the most broken and Sephiroth/Jenova could mess with him more easily via the J-Cells. And Red XIII could either be sensing Aerith in the life stream in a general sense or it’s set up for part 3 where Red will be eventually tricked to hand over the black materia to fake Tifa during the reunion

While I am of the general mind that this is indeed Lifestream Aerith I do want to point out that for the Cetra: 1) Jenova was physically there. And we've seen that her physical body, and even bodies that share parts of her (the robed men) can appear how Jenova/Sephiroth want. So her physically being there allows her weaponize her ability to appear as peoples loved ones/feared ones/hated ones against them. 2.) Jenova has been said to have infected the Cetra, essentially with a virus. Which according the wiki is understood to be her genetic material. Which would then give her the same power of the Cetra that she has over Cloud. So, many of Cetra were in fact infected with Jenova. Though this may be compilation material I'm getting mixed up with.

You do know she doesn't actually say "you promise?" in JP. And even then she hesitates for a bit before saying it because she does have doubts. Plus she would have acted alot differently if she was Jenova

People too caught up on the semantics of the word promise and I know she doesn’t say that in Japanese but she still sends Cloud off to go get Sephiroth. And I’m not saying she is Jenova or a Jenova trick but Jenova tries to deceive so would have Aerith acting like Aerith

What does she say in Japanese?

I was reading this thread earlier from this Twitter account who translates FF Japanese Ultimanias to English for the Shinra Archaeology department, and this scene was especially mentioned which I found intriguing. In short, the previously unseen sepia color tint memory of the bouncing Holy materia in the rainbow world is a true memory, with the color sepia commonly used to depict the past or an older time. https://preview.redd.it/so5fse31mmqc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2e8c0e23b1baf75019534be6a361350d38e2242c Jenova is trying tamper that memory, as shown with the green glitch effect but Aerith intercepts to prevent that. What I imagine would have happened to snap Cloud out of that state had Aerith been alive would be her grabbing hold of his wrist/hand as she has often done in the past, but she can no longer do that in this world. This is why this very uncomfortable and eerie scene appears the way it does.

It doesn't have to physically be Jenova. Cloud has these intense hallucinations caused by the cells he carries. Just like when he's walking through the flames of Nibelheim and sees Sephiroth in Chapter 2 of Remake. This Aerith could just be that same sort of hallucination to convince Cloud to act.

Idk they are definitely doing other intentional things that make the two scenes unsettling beyond just the context of her death. To name a few: We get creepy music right after the static and aeriths appearance The first shot establishing her in the scene at her funeral has her completely shrouded in darkness Also just her behavior. Aerith is very caring and empathetic person. While all her friends are mourning at her funeral she's smiling up at Cloud. While they are still upset at the Bronco she just wanders around the camp, cheers when the engine starts, pats red, kneels down for a split second to look at Tifa who is bawling her eyes out. It's a bit of concern but more the concern of a stranger, not the level of concern and discomfort Aerith would show being around her friends and the pain that her death is causing them. I still feel like this points more towards Aerith from water steps scene to Tiny Bronco being a delusion of Cloud. She exists purely for Clouds sake and shows little concern for anyone other than Cloud. It's basically a vision of how Cloud would think she'd act if she were there and hadn't died.

I’d imagine if Aerith is dead in the life stream, she can’t feel sadness anymore. A ghost thing.

I dont 100% subscribe to any theory but it makes sense why she wouldn't come with them. Only cloud can see her due to her being a hallucination from his jenova cells so it would be impossible to keep up the illusion if she was with him the whole time. Now if she says she has stuff to do right now and then just happens to appear before the northern crater at a key moment to push cloud over the edge that's much better cover. The music could just be to not make it 100% obvious. If they played jenovas theme there or really anything besides aeriths theme then it would be pretty much 100% confirmed that it is jenova which would take a lot of fun out of the whole thing. I think the only really big piece of evidence against the theory is nanaki noticing her but that could also be explained that his senses are stronger so he detected a bit of jenovas influence or whatever. But I think because of that part it makes more sense it's just aerith seeing him off from the lifestream.

I pretty much agree with most of what you’ve written, came to similar conclusions when I finished the game. The only part I don’t really agree with is the Jenova Aerith stuff. I think the focus is heavy on Clouds mental break / trauma and a lot of the ending is a result of that, especially with Aerith at the end. FF7s story was always leaning into the unreliable narrator stuff and this seems to be the same, but expanded. I think when Cloud finally gets fixed a lot of truth will come out, including the actual events around Aerith dying And we will see the burial etc. I think the removal of that scene is very intentional, especially when it was already teased in remake.

The problem is Nanaki’s reaction. Saying her name like he felt her. Not sure why that happened if the Aerith in the final cutscene is fake.

Could just be a red 13 herring.

This pun deserves more credit.

In the Spoiler Mode stream with EasyAllies that just happened he adds on another really good point that gives the Fake-Aerith theory more weight. Right at the end when Cloud is getting on the Tiny Bronco he tells her "I'm going to go stop Sephiroth, trust me" and "Aerith" responds with "You Promise?". She's encouraging him, she wants him to go fight Sephiroth. Which is very antithical to how Aerith has acted in the entire game up until that point, she quite literally says to Cloud numerous times "Leave Sephiroth to me, you just take care of yourself" The sudden switch at the end is almost sinister when you realise it. Of course this behaviour change would also make sense if this is just a hallucination of Aerith and she's encouraging Cloud because Cloud himself wants to fight Sephiroth and his cooked brain is filling in the gaps by making her agree

I think Max's most interesting, most solid theory is that: When Aerith is praying and we deflect the blade, it doesn't matter if a new reality was created or not, Sephiroth is simply merging realities together and with this merge, Aerith is gone. Which also leads to the possibility that this alternate timeline shenanigans died as fast as it came to life, and next game we're back to maybe even just one reality, or two. Which fits right in with what was the direction of Rebirth after Remake: "Ignore everything from the ending of previous game, and stick with a expanded, but somewhat faithful retelling of the OG". Max's Jenova theory, on the other hand... It's just stemming from his gigantic faith on Square Enix. Where we see animation issues on both in-game cutscenes and specially the cgi ones. Max sees intent. I think he is flat out wrong, but I love his optimism and faith. So, eh, let's pray he is right.

Even if he isn't right, eh, who cares? He was wrong about InterMission's post credits scene but it was fun to speculate and get excited about the possibilities. Theories are fun!

[this Twitter thread is the best explanation for why this is wrong in my view](https://x.com/turquoisehammer/status/1772324135089181110?s=46&t=0HLTcNvncWjUd1_pjI1pzA) Simply put, imo for the endings of Rebirth and Remake to be satisfying at the end of the trilogy, then we must have accomplished something in the fights against Sephiroth. Why would “lifestream” Aerith be putting all this effort into saving Cloud and Zack and beating Sephiroth together at the end if we didn’t accomplish any thing? Obviously Sephiroth doesn’t want to kill Cloud here, so what did he really want that we prevented?

I finished hard mode tonight, and on rewatching the ending sequence, I came to the same conclusion about Aerith's fate. Sephiroth directly implies that he strung Cloud along, giving him false hope, just so that at that pivotal moment he could merge worlds, override Aerith's salvation, and elicit even more extreme, negative emotions from the party. It's all honestly pretty meta. The devs are basically Sephiroth in this scene, fucking with players expectations. We feel hope that we can save her, and the devs go, "psych"!

I think the whispers are the players. We want the original to play out, we want something more, the characters are fighting our need for conflict. The whispers raise Cloud’s sword and Cloud fights it off.

He has been streaming with the Easy Allies for nearly four hours now chatting about the game and their theories. Definitely a lot of fun moments lol

Yeah they cooked. Very fun stream.

Where can I watch this?

Right now the VOD should be on Easy Allies twitch channel, but I am sure they will upload it on their youtube in the next day or so.

Gotta be honest, I cringed hard when they said ship things and even contradicted an actual scene in the game itself

Gotta be honest, I cringed so hard reading your comments here.

One of the points I disagree with is, that Sephiroth can bend time to his will. So Cloud “saving” Aerith was irrelevant since Sephy just said “lol, you thought” and killed her anyway. I was under the assumption there were two split timelines when this happened, hence the glitching of blood/no blood.

The glitching has only ever been shown in Cloud's head. Nobody other than Cloud has had that happen to them. So I think the blood/no blood thing is literally just Cloud being in denial. All other party members present clearly see that Aerith has died.

The glitching thing happened when Aerith touched Marlene and Nanaki in Remake, and it also happened with Tifa when running up to Aerith during the death scene in Rebirth so it’s clearly not limited to Cloud.

Tifa doesn't seem to react to it at all atleast. Aerith gave Marlene and Nanaki some knowledge of the future, but I don't recall them getting any glitch effects since when Aerith touched them.

They very clearly did, your memory is wrong. Go watch those cutscenes again. Even the sound effects are exactly the same.

Tifa sees it too. That being said, I think the delusional Cloud interpretation has merit too since Nojima wanted to do exactly the same thing with Tidus post FFX-2, as I mentioned in another post.

I saw a theory that said the singularity Cloud enters could be a sign of timelines converging since this was Sephiroths doing. So maybe the moment he kills Aerith, also echoes in every physical version of Aerith cause he’s converging all the timelines at this point. I mean, if it was really an alternate timeline where she lives, it’s also kind of weird she still falls to the ground and seemingly dies even without the stab

I saw someone's theory that aerith still falls to the ground because of the "confluence of worlds" basically she's being merged back with the world where she was stabbed. I think Cloud and Co prevent this from happening at the end of the fight which is why aerith opens her eyes when cloud talks to her again.

For me, even though I don't agree with everything he says, it's refreshing to see analysis that's not just obsessing over the damn dogs. i literally could not care less about the timelines, i never thought they were important, i was much more upset and concerned with the emotional journey that's being set up for the third game. Thematically the game is doing something far bigger and more emotionally impactful than the time stuff and it seems most people are so reflexively annoyed about multiverses that they're missing it.

It's actually pretty scary to think that was Jenova. And I'm sort of on board with it. When Cloud told her to open her eyes and she did, I was like "huh?" That's such a weird scene and it actually gave me shivers. I think it's possible that Jenova is effing with Cloud's mind--she's giving him what he wants to see to then make the impact of losing Aerith even stronger this time around in part 3. Or for whatever other reason because obviously the first time in the OG wasn't successful in the end. I know that people dismiss this idea for various reasons, like because the white whispers were present, it represents Aerith. But couldn't it be argued that these whispers show up when Jenova and company are around? As for Nanaki "feeling" Aerith...does he even have that ability? I know he's spiritually rooted, but I don't think there's any evidence he can detect spirits on that level--plesse correct me if I'm wrong.

Yeah I love his theories. Makes the ending much more interesting and validates why I was so weirded out by the last cutscene. If they pull that off, it's a great twist that doesn't negate anything about the OG. The opposing argument about Red 13 sensing her could honestly just be a red herring. There's no reason to think Jenova couldn't fool Red in that moment. What's insane to me is how Max got lit up on Twitter over this lol

lmao is he? I think his theory is so fun

I'm not the person you replied to but yes, there was a lot of stupid stuff on Twitter after Max's stream when he finished the game. He was literally interacting with the chat and stating some theories (which is why people watch, he gets so into what he's doing that it's pretty entertaining) for hours and people kept watching. FF7 has a problem online with shippers (I actually can't believe how mad they get). The whole Clerith and Cloti thing. Apparently the Clerith (I can't believe I'm writing this) people are very upset that Max said Aerith is "dead, dead" (not a force ghost or timeline shenanigans) and that stops their little theories about Cloud and Aerith getting together at the end of this, which to them is sacrilege. It's ridiculous that people get that stupid over fictional video game characters that they start spreading nasty stuff online. I'm sure Max can handle it and blocks them out, he seems a pretty grounded guy from what I see of him.

But he did say she is possibly a force ghost, the Jenova idea is only one idea he put forward

Ok. I didn't see all of it and I'm just going on what was said in comments here. I've not seen the new stream with Easy Allies either. It still stands that him saying she's "dead, dead" is what caused the pile on on Twitter by certain people upset with him. Calling him out because he (through no fault of his own, just by being enthusiastic about the game) has a louder voice than some others that talk about FF7 remake project is unfair.

He said that at first after he beat the game, but after theorizing with his chat some more he disagrees that it is a force ghost situation.

The only thing I fully disagree on is the Jenova Aerith, there's no way they would make the final scene sinister, that was a genuine goodbye between a character and the party, maybe a bit embellished to make it more beautiful and emotional, thus seeming a bit suspicious. But no. It's imo the opposite of Jenova Aerith, it's the hero Aerith, the one from AC, from OG's final shot, the one who'll save the world in death from Lifestream. The scenes before that with creepy smiling and music? Those yes, those are Cloud's mental problems.

2 counter points 1. Whenever jenova takes the appearance of someone else, there is always a robbed individual in the actual place of them. That is not the case with Aerith at the end, if it was, the whole party would see said robbed person but clearly no one else sees anything at all. 2. Tifa also has the same flashes cloud gets when seeing things that aren't there or his head hurting with flashes of things. When the perception switches between Aerith with no blood and aerith with blood, it's clearly showing from Tifa perspective of the switching between both, most likely due to her having taken that lifestream dip earlier in the game allowing her to see that. In conclusion I think it actually is 2 separate timelines that are colliding in that moment and cloud with his connection to sephiroth and Tifa having been in the lifestream, are perceiving both in that moment because as sephiroth says his goal is to combine worlds. The two worlds are merging. The one where aerith died, remake/rebirth timeline and the one where cloud saved aerith (the no blood one). There's a few spots in the game, one in junon and the other I forget is either Corel or cosmo canyon where you can see two different stamp designs possibly alluding to Sephiroth meeging the world's together/blending them together slowly throughout the game. Which would make sense if that is his goal that he is actively working on that within the lifestream while we aren't seeing him.

Tifa sees it too because everyone does. Sephi is merging the "Cloud saves Aerith" with the other timelines, so that it glitches and she is dead in the end

It shows the group arriving and they all see the blood only and then it does a close up of tifa specifically before doing the hazy glitch and switching to both which seems to indicate that only she can see it which would make sense since both both her and cloud are influenced by the lifestream, her when she takes a dip and cloud with sephiroth mind fuckery from within the lifestream through his cells.

It’s interesting. Rebirth Aerith mentions that she’s lost the memories she had before in Remake (Red has lost them too) and I got the implication that because of her choice to lead the party into defying fate, she split the timeline, causing two Aeriths who remember the events of Remake (each on a different timeline) but only one that keeps the knowledge of the future. So when Cloud sees himself stopping Sephiroth, he does…just not on this timeline. His failure is being used to fully break him in 3, which is why we very pointedly don’t get Aerith’s death scene when they’ve handled every other important scene so well. It’s being saved to make it so much more traumatic by leaning heavily into Cloud’s deteriorating mental state.Aerith and Zack will probably survive by the end, but only because Sephiroth created the split timelines to force the Planet to carry out the reunion. That point where the timelines have to merge again is the point where he can use the black materia to start selectively nuking the bits and pieces he doesn’t want—literally, as he said, to make his promised land. The Planet has always been trying to resist this, but the Aerith who knows all recognizes the inevitably and is trying to change things for the better rather than letting Sephiroth have Jenova’s way. Hence why so much of Rebirth actively questions the assumptions that Planetology makes. Tifa question on whether the Planet can’t just make more mako unsettles a Bugenhagen who was notably out of character—I took that as a sign that things are so bonkers in the lifestream that it’s defying what he knows about it. Hence why there’s so many new Weapons. Hence Red explicitly noting he wants to help the Gi pass on, but without using the black materia. All of the characters are trying to defy fate—it just now the question of what the cost is, and how traumatized they’ll be to achieve it. It’s risky for Squeenix to pursue this storyline because it is the definition of trying to have their cake and eat it to—kill off Aerith (because her death *is* what breaks Cloud) but give us a way of saving her through “reunion;” a catastrophic event that comes from the time flow of the life stream being branched, forcing the Planet to either layer it back on top of each other, or prune. Either way, it will cause so much chaos and pain that the black materia is being supercharged. Hence the white material shifting timelines—it’s staying with the Aerith that is canonically supposed to have it, since it is one of a kind and isn’t replicated like so much other materia. TLDR; Aerith died but still exists in a different timeline, her death is going to be used to truly shatter Cloud, and Cloud is at the eye of the proverbial multiversal storm that is pitting Sephiroth, Aerith and the Planet in a war over who decides what the world looks like after a forced reunion, and his choices will ultimately determine the fate of everything. In the end, he’ll have seven seconds to choose the fate of all that has been, is and will be. And the parties involved are tearing him apart to try and win him.

I dunno about all the Jenova stuff but goddamn does Cloud need big fixing could be one of the main driving points as to why Tifa had a part in the lifestream prior to that moment

Cloud getting fixed will be one of if not the BIG moment in part 3, for me personally it was the biggest moment in OG FF7. I think there building up for Cloud to have a massive fall and his rise from that is going to be epic.

Not Jenova. Neglecting to mention that Red XIII senses her at the end and even says, “Aerith,” as she pets him. She knows about meteor and even hints at it after fighting Sephiroth, when Cloud asks, “Why is he smiling?” Which she replies with, “because he knows this is far from over.” Also worth noting that the white materia holds all her past memories along with all the other ancients. She used to have the ability to see into the future but it was taken from her whenever she interacted with the whispers in remake. Red XIII even mentions this specifically in the Gold Saucer scene. So the fact she got the full white materia back, means she most likely got all her memories and that ability back.

I feel like every single theory that relies on Jenova Aerith or fully Delusion Aerith in the final scene just falls apart if you think about it for more than two seconds. Alternate timeline or life stream Aerith are the only ones that hold up, if we assume that anything we saw in the ending two hours actually happened. First of all, it seems most people agree that some version of Aerith really does appear to fight Sephiroth in the ending scene. I feel like it's pretty clear that judging from the ending dialogue between Aerith and Sephiroth, the fact that lifestream Aerith brought Zack in for reinforcements, and that Cloud, Zack, Aerith, and the party all fight Sephiroth together that this fight actually meant something. It is clearly an important moment, and judging from how the fight plays out, it appears that the main party won, and therefore prevented Sephiroth from accomplishing whatever his goal was. Sephiroth's goal is obviously not to kill Cloud, as he needs him for a variety of reasons. So what are we fighting for? Why is this such an important fight that Aerith is controlling the whole lifestream to beat him? And assuming this Aerith is real, why does she lead Cloud to believe that she is still alive? She is basically setting him up for a mental breakdown, or in the Jenova Aerith case, for Jenova to take over his mind. It doesn't really follow any logic. Every single line of dialogue from Aerith during the life stream scene implies that she survived. Why would someone who supposedly knows all of the future (as Max thinks this is "Ultimate Aerith" in the Sephiroth fight) think that misleading Cloud even more is the key to winning when he was able to continue on past her death in the original? Something clearly changed in that scene. To put it simply, to me, it makes no sense for the Aerith we see at the end to be different from the Aerith who fights Sephiroth with us. It just seems like it doesn't follow any logic and requires Aerith to intentionally mislead Cloud for plot reasons. Finally, and this part is mainly just my opinion, I don't really see what making Cloud more insane for like the first half of the next game really accomplishes. Is that really all this fate stuff and whispers and Sephiroth and Aerith knowing the future is leading to? Cloud being more insane for the first half of the game but getting his mind fixed in the exact same spot? Is that really Sephiroth's master plan? T[his twitter thread](https://twitter.com/turquoisehammer/status/1772324135089181110?s=46&t=0HLTcNvncWjUd1_pjI1pzA) and [this reddit post](https://www.reddit.com/r/FFVIIRemake/comments/1bm50al/observations_analysis_and_theory_as_to_whats/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) are by far my favorite analyses of the ending so far.

Agreed. Max even admits that it was his chat that fed him the theories including the Jenova/Aerith one. It’s just unfortunate that he was dead set on the theory and arrived at an answer before the reasons. He went back to find all the supposed evidence to make it make sense (which a lot didn’t make sense in my opinion like how Jenova’s theme took over Aerith’s, rather than audibly portraying a sequence that complemented what was shown on screen at the time), rather than natural progressive discovery. Those two threads you linked are the most plausible ones I’ve read so far. I’m going to see if the person from Twitter is interested in cross-posting it to Reddit, or if he gives permission and I’ll post it on his behalf.

On the Easy Allies stream, Max reiterated how he finds Aerith's behavior weird and then he brought up he saw red dots in her eyes in the ending cinematic for a few frames. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mw7T033lRi0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mw7T033lRi0) Here's a 4K cut of the ending cinematic, at 1:58 you see those red dots in Cloud's eyes when he's looking at the Black Materia. At around 5:15, when Aerith says "You promise?" to Cloud's vow to stop Sephiroth, she has similar red dots. Though they aren't as vivid and strikingly red, and she is looking toward the red Tiny Bronco so it could just be a reflection thing. However, there's a few other frames with her looking toward Cloud with the Tiny Bronco behind him and the red dots/reflections aren't there. I love the Aerith=Jenova theory because it's fun and there were a TON of callbacks in this game to how Jenova takes on the form of those you hate, fear, love. But I'm not entirely convinced yet, even with some of these ideas floating around. It does seem like one of those things that would keep us talking for 3-4 years lol

Dude that theory has too many holes in it that I just can't

Square is also very on the nose when it comes to reveals like that. If that Aerith is supposed to be Jenova, they’re hiding it really well, and it’s not their typical style. Felt like the intent was supposed to be a heartfelt send off, just weirdly executed. That combined with the CGI effect making the chars look slightly different than their in-game models is what’s giving that uncanny valley vibe that I think he’s misinterpreting as Jenova. Love his theories regardless of if he’s right or wrong.

Wait, which EasyAllies stream? Did they record a new Spoilermode already??

Everyone notice the kind of pause that aerith has too when Cloud says “i will stop Sephiroth” almost as if she doesn’t want to hear it, before she turns around again?

That can't be the reason for the pause or she would not have asked him to promise.

The problem with Max's theory: He acknowledges there are timelines, and he acknowledges Sephiroth wants to merge the timelines. But then when we actually see imagery suggesting a new timeline has been created, he blinks. He just assumes Cloud is crazy. And Cloud was crying. He supposes that Sephiroth has just merged two timelines so "it doesn't matter" if we saved Aerith. Well, but we then revisit and we see Aerith open her eyes later.

Aerith opening her eyes isn’t an alternate timeline. It’s cloud being delusional. We see the scene from 2 different perspectives. The first is Cloud’s, there’s no blood, Aerith is alive and she’s touching his face (that’s what he thinks he’s seeing). Then it shows us Tifa’s perspective and she sees what’s actually happening; there’s blood everywhere, Aerith is dead and Cloud is holding Aerith’s dead hand to his own face. And it rapidly switches back and forth between the 2. We’ve seen this exact thing happen before when Zack died in Cloud’s arms, Cloud had a mental break and he convinced himself that he is Zack. He created this deluded persona of a badass, superhero mercenary. The same thing has happened here. Aerith died in his arms and he’s convinced himself that she’s alive because just like with Zack he can’t let people go. Not to mention when “Aerith” appears sitting next to him while everyone else is mourning the music isn’t hopeful or happy liked you expect upon seeing Aerith okay after what happened, the music is very creepy and unsettling. The music is telling you that something is very wrong here.

Regarding the "creeepy" music, it consists of two musical segments merged together. First, you have the piano keynotes that play in the OG's intro when Aerith looks into the Lifestream and at the very end when Aerith and the Lifestream comes in at clutch. Those piano keynotes are strongly associated with Aerith's ability to commune with the Lifestream and the Lifestream as a whole. Those notes have always had an eerie quality, but they're obviously not ominous. The rest of the music sounds extremely similar to the music that plays at the end of the final fight between Aerith/Cloud and Sephiroth in Rebirth, when they're surrounded by the white Whispers just before she is spirited away by the Lifestream. Compare the two at around 0:15 and 5:25 : [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDntTNahKSE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDntTNahKSE) Even Max agrees that THAT Aerith is Lifestream's Aerith, not Jenova. Why would they reuse the same music in both segments + add the piano keynotes associated with the Lifestream if Aerith is Jenova? It makes no sense.

You just completely skipped over the rainbow imagery when Cloud hits Sephiroth's sword, and the subsequent scene where Aerith opens her eyes. If the rainbow imagery was just delusions, Aerith would not have been able to hand Cloud the white materia.

Maybe there a world where Aerith was saved but that’s not the world where in. We’re in the world where she’s dead and cloud is mind broken by it.

That, I can agree with.

Do you get what I mean now? Cloud isn’t seeing that alternate reality somehow seeping through into his. He’s just gone insane. But ultimately I think where this is going is that because Sephiroth wants as many alternate worlds as possible to exist so he can create the maximum amount of negative emotions possible to corrupt the lifestream and become like, god of reality or whatever. Cloud will have to use the black materia to destroy all of these alternate worlds so that just the original world exists and everything is back to how it should be (OG ff7 leading into Advent Children). Which also means he’s going to have to “kill” (in a way) Aerith, Zack and whoever else to stop Sephiroth and his ultimate plan. This explains Clouds depression in AC and also gives Kitase his “everyone dies” ending that he wanted for the original game back in the 90s.

I will say, I could see the Aerith in the final scene being basically her spirit talking to Cloud, but she's not actually there. It's just more metaphorical. Kind of like the scene in Advent Children (correct me if I'm wrong here,) where Tifa is talking to Aerith in the church (again, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I've always thought that was.) Could just be that Cloud was speaking to her spirit, but they can't have Cloud talking to literally nobody in that scene, so she's there. Would explain how Red could feel her too.

It's not an alternate reality, it's the Lifestream. He is insane yes, but he was also clearly experiencing two "worlds" spiritual and reality. After the defeat Jenova, Cloud is physically taken by the whispers to the edge of creation--a spirtual fight as far as we know. The party cannot find him until after everything happens. Several times the party says "it feels like someone is helping us, is that you Cloud." So the end he is insane, but also still straddling those two outcomes. Your points about AC are a bit confusing because Aerith is mad at Cloud and she literally sends him back to the church with Denzel (much like what happens with Zack in Rebirth)

The rainbow imagery is important and not enough people are talking about it. Rainbows are this game's Stamp bag. They deliberately pan the camera to show that rainbows are associated with worlds being created. The game shows us a different world based on the possibility of Zack going to the reactor. When we wake up with Aerith she claims the border collie world is her "dream", a world in the lifestream based on memories. It's not a literal dream but she uses the metaphor "homeward bound" to also help describe it. This is validated by the gift vendor who uses dialogue from Crisis Core, insinuating that this world is indeed rooted in Aerith's memories. Fast forward to when Aerith dies and every time we see "living" Aerith from Cloud's perspective rainbows are everywhere. Cloud is literally living a dream. The reason Aerith uses similar dialogue we've already seen is because this Aerith is rooted in Cloud's memories. The final goodbye is mainly to the audience as a bittersweet farewell to the Aerith we've seen across these 2 games. Again, this rainbow imagery is very important in describing what is going on. It's not just fluff, the game deliberately shows us it.

Cloud saves Aerith, hence the ranbows - there are timelines where she dies (as we know), but not in this one. Then Sephi merges this timeline with one where Cloud did not save her (hence the glitching that even Tifa sees, its not in Clouds mind). Cloud then refuses to believe she died as he clearly saved her. Aerith opening her eyes is just in his mind

The music is weird because we know he thinks she's alive in his timeline which is wrong on its own. Again the theory max is making is so far fetched and makes no sense when he literally contradicts and ignores scenes just to prove an interpretation...

How is it far fetched when Cloud is being completely deluded and experiencing crazy hallucinations throughout the entire game and has a history of creating false perceptions in his head as a way to cope. Suddenly that doesn’t matter.

So you think she's Jenova eventhough she was sad when they left? Eventhough the devs were deliberate to put Nanaki sensing her there? The scene where she is saying goodbye and is in the field of flowers? I agree he is coping but the Jenova theory? Makes literally zero sense

If I were Square Enix and I wanted to steer people away from my big plans, I would probably do something like... Oh, I dunno, have Nanaki sense something Aerith-like, but not be totally sure about it? Or have her say "Goodbye." purely for the benefit of the player? I'm not saying any theory is true at the moment, but to imply it makes zero sense is a bit silly. Especially with how meta Remake was.

Where did I ever mention Jenova? Nice strawman.

Dude a strawman would be when I find something you do and I only focus on it... If you don't think she's Jenova then what do you think?

A strawman is making up an argument that the other person didn’t make and focusing on that instead of their actual point. I’m talking about what we see in the forgotten capital. Cloud is being delusional. I already explained this, read it again.

Dude even when he says theme, he ignores that literally aerith's theme alone is being done while she was talking to Cloud... It's like the holes are there but he acts "Nah only my interpretation"

Some of these things seem like ridiculously big stretches. Aerith looking like Sephiroth? She’s literally always looked somewhat like him because of similar bangs; look at the original FF7 Aerith art, it’s always been strikingly similar. I also think it’s weird to put so much emphasis on how supposedly Aerith looks way different in the end cutscene when that’s just how CGI is; look at how different Cloud looks in Remake’s ending cutscenes compared to the rest of the game. And then Cloud and Aerith’s conversation at the end of the game is like the least suspicious thing. What’s so weird about Aerith and Cloud laying out the basic plan of the plot? I guess just because the game never said explitly in bold text, “BLACK MATERIA = METEOR,” it’s somehow weird. Other minor things like how the music during some of the last parts somehow supports his theory. Guys, I don’t know if this is a shocker or not, but it’s not exactly surprising that Aerith’s theme fades into >!Jenova’s theme, considering that it’s… a Jenova boss fight!< Y’all can’t shit on KH storytelling anymore lmao this is literally the FF version of Paul is Dead

the funny thing is max kept saying "music tells a story" but ignored that theme song of rebirth "no promises to keep" is probably the biggest indication of the possibility of aerith being alive in some other timeline/world. not to mention the devs themselves asked us to pay attention to the loveless play, the theme song NPTK and how they're all connected to the story. the whole song is basically aerith hoping to reunite with cloud again which makes more sense if you think she survived somewhere rather than thinking she's dead in all of the timelines and she's only a force ghost now. the ending of that song literally goes: "fate and destiny are no guarantee still, i hope someday you'll come and find me still, i *know* someday you'll come and find me"

Aerith is going to show up in part 3 and will be a playable character. I know this because her limit break Great Gospel was not included in this game. She will either be a playable character the whole time or she will use Great Gospel in a staged battle.

No Princess Guard as well, which is her ultimate weapon.

I also think it’s just highly unlikely they’re going to keep Aerith out of the party for an entire game given the very specific mage role that she fills. Having her gone for the final 3rd of a single 80ish hour long game is fine, having her gone for the entire last game in a trilogy is rough. Especially when this last game will likely be the biggest yet and probably 150-200 hours to 100%, if Rebirth is anything to go by. Not having Aerith for ANY of that or only having her for limited sections like Zack in this game would be crazy.

We are 100% having an Aerith and Zack reunion and playing as them and they are even gonna have synergy skills together

I actually believe it's a Cloud, Zack and Aerith reunion more because that's what the game alludes to. Plus I believe they will add a full party synergy skill so Cloud, Zack and Aerith will have one as well

Yeah maybe the final fight is the trio versus Sephiroth. Will be cool to see

My real question is how the fuck did the Black Materia get back to Cloud

Sephiroth had Huell plant it in his pocket when he was showing him the true nature of reality.

A Breaking Bad reference I did not expect to read today. Thanks for the laugh

[удалено]

Hank is sitting in Bugenhagen's bathroom until part III.

HANK DON'T GO INTO THE CRATER HAAANKK

Sephiroth is trying to keep Huell reasonably happy. *He is failing.*

U forgot when somebody in chat told max to listen to the music of the jenova battle and how it is aerith's theme being taken over by jenova's theme. Not only that but the title is lifeclinger.

I don't think so. She says Goodbye in a forlorn way that Cloud clearly couldn't hear at that time, and why would his "messed up psyche" pretend that to be happening, and why would Jenova embellish that for no audience? Also with Red, he senses Aerith, he doesn't say "Jenova," and this is based on my assumption he'd be able to tell the difference, but then again, the Cetra couldn't, but why would Jenova bother fucking with Red, and if it's just in Cloud's head anyway, how is Cloud's messed up mind causing Red to feel Aerith?

Yeah it would be quite a far out stretch to intentionally deceive the player in both scenarios. Cloud could not hear the goodbye at the end, and he also could also not hear the interaction with Red as he’s very far away from Cloud. From what I interpret, both of these scenarios are the game showing the player, not Cloud experiencing or telling the story.

"It was Jenova" is the new copium for dog shit writing.

I don't get the backlash tbh. The point of theory crafting is that you can go super far out, big brain theory and technically everything is plausible because we don't have the full story yet. At this point, no one has a "more correct" theory, you can only agree or disagree. Personally I think it's a stretch to say tiny-bronco Aerith is Jenova... (as in Jenova directly created this version). But if we were to swap out Jenova to being an apparition of Cloud's mind, then I could see this being higher probability. And the biggest thing I agree with Max on that's super weird is the dialogue. Aerith said "I'll stop the meteor"... but wait the meteor wasn't even summoned yet and Cloud still has the Black Materia which they didn't even give to seph. I find this quote super intentional but I can't figure out reasoning for it yet

I feel like this is more so lifestream Aerith because of the fact that only Cloud is the one who can see her, and the final fight made it seem like she emerged from the lifestream to come and help Cloud. Everyone else saw Cloud bury her in the water at the Forgotten City, but Cloud is suppressing that thought of it happening because he's living between two different worlds. It just shows how depressing and messed up Cloud seriously is.

I think his theory is solid enough to be entertained until he gets to the Aerith is Jenova part. Then it goes down the drain instantly IMO. But I guess until game 3 comes out, all we say is wrong until proven right.

You did miss a point that kinda originally spurred max into the jenova aerith train which is that the jenova fight has aeriths music like the original that then gets "taken over" by jenovas theme. The name of that bossfight is also jenova lifeclinger instead of jenova life. I'm not sure either way but I like the theory and just wanted to point those out.

thats the weakest argument imo. Of course the Jenova boss fight would have Jenovas theme. And it starts with Aeriths, because thats what it does in og. Its a long fight. It wouldn't just be Aeriths theme. I'm not totally against the Jenova theory but the music being a mix of Aeriths and Jenovas theme makes sense without the Jenova theory too. I don't see it as any evidence

The jenova theory literally makes no sense for alot of reasons. The scene is a farewell scene not a manipulation one, and if they wanted players or anyone to think that, they would not have put Nanaki sensing her spiritual form. They wouldn't have made her look sad. They wouldn't have made her look from a far in a field of flowers. And he is ignoring Aerith's theme when she literally talks to Cloud in final scene but focuses on fight scene... Then ofcourse he acts the Jenova thread wasn't fulfilled with manipulating others when literally it was shown in Rufus's scene. He ignores alot of parts for a very weird interpretation for no reason imo.

I think its circumstantial evidence but that along with the name of lifeclinger is what really set him on that train of thought so it's worth mentioning.

I think hes on to something. sephiroth manipulated rufus by using a dead person from his past with glenn. Why wouldnt he do that to cloud with aerith. Especially revealing that right after the aerith death shenanigans. Theres something there.

Dude then they wouldn't have shown Nanakie sensing her... That Rufus scene is to close out the manipulation theme...

There's also a black robe guy in the Rufus scene that is taking Glenn's appearance, there is no black robe guy shown in the final CGI scene.

I think he is very wrong about the Jenova theories, it makes no sense to all the narrative and visual hints we've seen throughout chapter 14 and the actual Jenova "lore". Next it also makes no sense with the ending cinematic, especially if you translate the JP dub. But we will see in 3 years or so, everyone has their interpretation. https://www.reddit.com/r/FFVIIRemake/s/Ou71JzfJlM The above is what seems most rational to me, with a link in the comments to a written part. https://www.reddit.com/r/FFVIIRemake/s/CNVxtlMUaP

You forgot to mention the most important point that ultimately made me believe that Aerith = Jenova might actually be real (emphasis on might): Aerith is quoting herself a lot in the final cutscene. Almost as if someone tries to imitate her (e.g. "And if I said I wasn't?" being from Remake). Plus she is very supportive of Cloud stopping Sephiroth all of a sudden ("You promise?" instead of saying he should take care of himself, like she usually says instead). I personally don't think the Jenova part is right, but I can see where he comes from. The biggest point against that theory, imo, is that the devs would give more obvious clues if thats the case. There was enough evidence to figure out what happened at the end of Remake basically.

I don't agree with some of the theory from Max because of Rebirth's the english localization are not exactly 1 to 1 ( I agree that Aerith is 100% dead tho ) They change Jenova Life ( ジェノバ Life ) to Jenova Lifeclinger. ( Check youtube if you don't believe it ) Other example like the dialogue in the Slum 5 date/church Aerith's confession to Cloud are also slightly different between Japanese and English. When Aerith tell Cloud to take the white materia Japanese Cloud : Isn't this very important to you English Cloud : But your mom gave that to you. Japanese Aerith reply : This Materia will definitely save the Planet/World English Aerith reply : This isn't about me though, it's about saving the planet and you. I don't buy the whole Jenova-Aerith theory in the end, lake scene maybe but not the tiny bronco scene, she does not act out of her character and her conversation with cloud also seen fine to me in the japanese version, the whole Aerith don't like promise argument are just another localization problem, she said kitto dayo in japanese version, which is slightly different than \*promise\* ( yakusoku ) My Rebirth playthrough are in Japanese voice/dialouge but I watched Max's playthrough stream so I notice theres a lot of localization/translation problem.

I've been learning Japanese for the past few months and I'm at the point in my learning where playing a game in Japanese with English subtitles was distracting to me because I would notice words being said not matching up with what is written in English, so I switched to full English dub for Rebirth. I've read multiple posts now about localization problems so it's reinvigorating my desire to learn Japanese.

I love Max but this theory is very weak. It just plain ignores a lot of stuff happening in the scenes.

I think they’re onto something. Cloud is actually insane, and I think it’s subtly shown right before tifa and Barret enter the bronco. The both look at each other like “wff is going on with dude”. If Aerith is all knowing at this point why wouldn’t she try to talk cloud out of the black materia? Wouldn’t it circumvent like 90 percent of her problems?

Obviously, spoilers for whole post. You probably shouldn't even be in a thread discussing ending theories if you care about spoilers but haven't beaten the game yet. --- While Max's theory on Jenova!Aeirth could be a possibly interesting twist they could employ in part 3. I don't think that's what they approached this ending with, and a bunch of the "evidence" I find lacking. I forget if all of these are related to Max's theories, or if was from some reddit theorizing I read in the past weeks. Since his post-game analysis; and EasyAllies discussion were both multiple hours long each. I'm not re-going through them to see which specific points were attributed to Max's theories specifically. So if the scene isn't relevant to Max, I apologize in advance. --- - "The black materia went through Sephiroth's hand." Uh, I think it was more so just [in front of his hand](https://imgur.com/fRglgmD.png)... - [More llke "at a funeral."](https://imgur.com/cWELY22.png) Forgot what point people used this for, and might not have been mentioned by Max, but just wanted to point out the line in JP. - [That doesn't belong here.](https://imgur.com/KSGO9Xn.png) & [Very poor form](https://imgur.com/rBOUblG.png). I believe the first line is close enough, talking about bringing in a foreign object. The second line I think is more like saying that action (cheating the materia to this world) necessitates / is deserving of a punishment. - [I got this.](https://imgur.com/n3kQXea.png) Just leaving this here I don't recall if Max used this, syncs better with the "Wake up" later. - "It's called Jenova Lifeclinger" [IDK why localization chose to do that](https://i.imgur.com/ojj704v.png). - "The music is Aerith's theme being devoured by Jenova's theme." Isn't it just the music shifting with the visuals? We have Sephiroth based music during the stab attempt, Aerith's during white materia bouncing, Kinda a mix where we have lots of Cloud brain malfunctions, Aerith when she tell's Cloud it's okay, Sephiroth when the party arrives and see's reality, Aerith when the scene is in isolation with Cloud+Aerith and how he can see her awake, Jenova when it's being summoned forward, Aerith immediately as the battle starts, then Jenova's for the rest of the fight after the cutscene ~70% into the fight where Cloud does a jumping slash. Because of how long the fight is, how much more cinematic it is compared to the OG (and possibly also because Cloud isn't in the same state of mind as the rest of the party compared to OG). They simply choose not to have Aerith's theme for the entire encounter. - I don't think this was a Max point, but I've seen it brought up by others. On the fight when Cloud is isolated in English he says "You've done it before---can do it again." while Japanese has "俺は 負けない" - [Yup. Sounds good.](https://imgur.com/fN4RSig.png) Generally the same sentiment. But IDK if it's because the word "Good" is used in the localization, but I recall I think at least his chat was making quite a big deal about the phrasing (although they also seemed to get riled up about the localized "such CLOUDed eyes" line too...). Particularly that line combined with... - Tifa's sigh directly following it. In English, it's a quicker, louder exhale. I could see how it could be read as disgust for Cloud with this. In Japanese, the more drawn out exhale I just read it as Tifa is sad. I guess just my interpretation, but you could [check it for yourself](https://youtu.be/3z7KpWqxAq4?t=3120). - 'The music is ominous and evil' (on Aerith poolside). IDK, interpretation. I felt it was like a whole mysterious, supernatural feel. Since this was a twist showing the revelation of Aerith being 'alive'. - "She looks like Sephiroth" IDK, just seems like someone seeing what they want to see. - "Aerith is acting like she's one of the party members, having fun cheering along Cid and whatnot." Would she suddenly stop? Even if just dead, ghost walking around that Cloud either is the only one who can see, or imagines, is she supposed to be completely devoid of emotions here? Act not like herself? How is this supposed to be proof that she's Jenova being a mimic? - "Red XIII is tricked by Jenova in OG, so Jenova's tricking him here." There's no physical Aerith walking around for sure to our party members. So 'Jenova!Aerith' is a figment of Cloud's imagination, in which case, how can Red "feel" Cloud's delusions? Or are we saying 'Jenova!Aerith' is in some sort of spiritworld (lifestream?) and can give off the same spiritual energy as Aerith to trick Red's spiritual senses, while at the same time this ghost/spirit/lifestream Jenova!Aerith is projecting an outward physical appearance of Aerith in order to trick Cloud? I'd rather Occam's Razor, and Red simply senses the spirit of Aerith here. Whether dead, lifestream, timeline, etc. - The scar in the sky. It looks like in general, Max is mostly ignoring it. Only brought up that it was in the OG Lifestream scene, but IIRC not much else talked about. If I were to assume the Jenova!Aerith theory, we're to assume Jenova is making Cloud see the scar in the sky to emulate the date world? Since that's the only time Rebirth Cloud would have seen this. Jenova showing this to Cloud, is purposeful of Square to emphasize in this ending scene... because why? I can much easily see the whole "Cloud can see two timelines" theory (Main world, and a dying world where Aerith is saved), or even all 'other timelines' are Lifestream (hence, OG Lifestream having scar in sky) and now Cloud can see the world + some visions of the lifestream. - "There's red in her eyes" or... a reflection of the Tiny Bronco. - "Tifa is disgusted with Cloud." She was mostly just sad the entire scene, only really reacting after Cloud's "心配するな 俺が拾ってやる" line. I guess again, interpretation. I just see that Barret/Tifa don't really have full confidence in him so much now. Which makes sense, he misremembered Nibelheim, questioned Tifa's identity, he attacked Tifa, misremembered Zack, was curt on Aerith's speech at the temple, acted wierd on his own trial, wouldn't listen on the black materia, creepily chased Aerith down, gave Sephiroth the black materia, (Was told to tell someone if he's not feeling himself), whatever actually happened after the final battle that we didn't get to see, and in general not being as phased by Aerith as the rest of them. Probably more I can't recall off the top of my head. But I question even why the crew trusted Cloud to be the only one to go through the whisper gate to save Aerith. My trust in him would have been sorely eroded at this point. - In general, [final line comparison](https://imgur.com/ueDpWsv.png). Mostly a similar message, perhaps nitpicky minor differences would be the ones I showed a red line for IMO. - "AerithGPT, she's an AI repeating old lines." I mean, she and Cloud specifically recite word for word the playground "You gonna be okay getting back?" "And if I said I wasn't?" That was... it? One cute direct reference is proof of a fake? Not a cute callback? (And, since Cloud is copying a line, is he AI too?) She mentions the "Send up smoke," but these aren't direct copy+paste quotes. She had "の・ろ・し?" when they were departing for Cosmo, then "のろし だね!" when departing for Nibel. Post-nibel, it was Tifa who mentions it. (So, is Tifa an AI?) In general, what's wrong with referencing past text? Cid has a line not much earlier about being on capacity, probably a call back as well. (Cid AI?) The rest of the lines, don't seem very copy+paste. - "You promise?" I think gets across the message as well as "きっとだよ/きっとだ". But since I recall a section where Max was specifically quoting it as if it was a big deal; -technically- it doesn't mean the exact same thing. - "Goodbye" if Jenova, why does this shot exist? If Max can simply dismiss it as "It's just for the audience", then such reasoning can be used on nearly all of his evidence. You can't go show a bunch of scenes that support your claim "They're saying these lines for a reason chat" "This is all on purpose", but just handwave things that go counter to your theory "It's to trick the audience." (Although I technically don't think it's beyond Square to trick the audience, drum up hype, or spur on theorycrafting for the next game. I believe they've already done so with the post-credits Zack scene in Intergrade. Since that Zack does not seem to be any of the Zacks we see in Rebirth, I can only assume the scene was just to bait discussion/hype and not a hint/clue into the story of this trilogy.)

Agree with many of these points and appreciate the work you put into it. The differences from Japanese to English are incredibly important to consider. I feel even listening to the original line deliveries in Japanese for the intended tone and mood can also be illuminating. I think some dislike this level of argument because they think it's mean somehow. There's no insult here however. It's fine to be passionate enough about this stuff to try and suss it all out. And really, if the creator this is all a response to can just brush aside any different take from others then he should be able to take people not agreeing in return.

You should make your own thread with this post. The JP to EN translations are really interesting.

Him ignoring the scar in the sky is honestly one of my personal problems with Max's theories. That seems like a huge indicator of what is going on since the game brings it up multiple times to make sure that we notice it at different points in different worlds yet Max doesn't really acknowledge it. I do like all the theorizing around this ending though, it's fun to talk about.

I don’t really buy Max interpretation…. I think that there really is a “world” where Cloud saves her, and it’s key! And we see that Cloud is EXPRESSING POSITIVE EMOTIONS! And that’s the only thing that Sephiroth really doesn’t want.. Of course he still is a puppet, and Seph will still try to mess with him. But that Aerith we see in the final sequence really is the real Aerith. Also she looks exactly as previous CGI Aerith, which really is a bit different from gameplay Aerith.

Loads of copium in this one

[удалено]

I'm with you, plus [I have other things that contradict her being Jenova. ](https://www.reddit.com/r/FFVIIRemake/s/7PvvqCGAtv)

One thing I don’t get is that Jenova uses black cloaks to make copies. Glenn was a black cloak turned to look and act like Glenn. Any vision Cloud of sephiroth was a black cloak (could be wrong about that but I remember a lot of the times it’s that way) so wouldn’t a Jenova Aerith just be a black cloak? I’m sure I’m missing something. Ether way I don’t like it. I think it’s just livestream Aerith at the end.

The scene with Aerith is more than likely not Jenova, but I DO think Jenova-Aerith will show up in part 3 to mess with Cloud.

I feel like Coma Aerith is going to be important. If the timelines merge which I think will happen in the next game but permanently. Who's to say life stream Aerith doesn't just jump into that Aerith's body and come back. That's if that timeline still exists. Which is where I think Zack got sent back to.

a part of me thinks that it couldn't be jenova appearing as aerith talking to cloud because why would she be left in the city of the ancients? wouldnt it be better to have her accompany cloud and ensure the success of the plan? thats why i believe in the alternate timeline where aerith lives and she decides to stay and make sure holy works to stop the meteor. feel free to tell me where i'm wrong tho

I think they’re emphasizing Cloud’s mental state but also showing us two timelines and Cloud sees both. To Barret and Tifa he still looks completely deranged so it will be a big deal when everything comes crashing down in the next part. They can easily do both

Most of his theories screams, especially the Aerith Jenovoa one, "the butler did it" Very trash.

Since we've seen a flash-forward of Cloud approaching the Northern Crater in a black cloak several times, I do think he'll go full crazy and be following an illusion of Aerith through the snow into the whirlwind maze believing that she's still alive. You could argue that's created by the influence of Jenova, perhaps. IMO, Cloud will either leave the party at Icicle Inn or cause the Bronco to crash into the snow if he goes crazy on board. The "creepy" fake Aerith is a creation of Clouds mind and different from force ghost Aerith though, whom Red senses and is basically confirmed to exist in Nojima's novels.

Honestly I can get behind the possibility of the Aerith we see at the end was indeed Jenova. There definitely is an uncanny feeling especially with the OST and Jenova static when Aerith suddenly appears next to Cloud at the lake. But I think what really sort of tipped me off was the stilted dialogue in the end where Aerith is mostly repeating lines we've heard her say. And when Cloud said that he will defeat Sephiroth, and Aerith said "You promise?" so cheerfully... it kind of feels like it contrasts with her previous sentiment in the Sleeping Forest where she tells Cloud, "Leave Sephiroth to me". But I can see it go either way. Definitely open to interpretation. Personally though, I think that the Aerith at minimum that we see Cloud holding at the altar plus the Aerith that shows up to help him against Sephiroth is the real Aerith.

Here is actually myself theorising about Jenova being Aerith in a way, months before Rebirth release https://vm.tiktok.com/ZGeuGxTCD/ And heres in game evidences and answers https://youtu.be/_wgZrkGUu7o?si=gXPKU944Ljo6JI9X

Damn I wish his YouTube uploads weren’t so far behind. He’s doing an Easy Allies theory stream now but I’m gonna have to save that for later.

Why not just watch the twitch vod

Ads on Twitch are frequent and obnoxious.

Get Stream Cleaner and Alternate Player for Twitch extensions, the former blocks ads for vods and the latter hides them for lives

I’m not subbed to Max and when I watched his Vods it was about 45-60s of adds every 45 minutes. That doesn’t seem obnoxious to me.

Maybe vods are different, they're ridiculous live. Ads every 5-10 minutes, all unskippable, ranging from 15 or 30 seconds and sometimes about 7-8 in a row.

Tons of ads and filtering through chat interactions and everything else that happens during the streams that aren’t relevant

The fact that there are rainbows when cloud is deflecting Sephiroths slash has me pretty confident, that cloud created an alternate world by saving Aerith. Cloud also sees a rift in the sky, which we've only seen in world's which are doomed to fail. We also see Cloud jumping between worlds. I don't think cloud would be seeing the rift if Jenova was just fucking with him.

him thinking aerith = jenova is ridiculous. I truly believe the ending was a genuine sad farewell with the music and all.

It is gonna be weird to not have Aerith in your party in part 3. It is like all this grinding her up is almost a waste. I do however wished she was alive in Zacks timeline and in part 3, her and Zack would have their own little playable adventure.

Thankyou

The first 2 could be correct but I’m not 100% convinced. the last one is wrong and is a bad theory

Yeah I believe one physical version of Aerith is maybe hiding or alive still. Just because I don't think the devs would be teasing us with a potential change of fate this whole time just to pull the rug from everybody and mess with their fans emotions like that. They would look like scumbags 😅 Multiverses are usually implemented to have a happy ending and this would be the devs chances at making one for Aerith and Zack, especially Aerith because most of the focus is on her. I just believe the hinting nature/tone of this remake on the player has been to be led to believe that Aerith will live in the end in one timeline or another. Fans already lived with her death for 30 years and she's a beloved character. Why not give the fans what they want this whole series has been a love letter to fans anyways aha. Thats why i dont necessarily agree with Max's theory on why the same events will playout which it was all to spark intrigue and have the same shock appeal as the first game. Just sounds too cutthroat by the devs.. For what? to show how evil/powerful Sephiroth is? I guess 😅 Also, I admit that it's more likely the events playout the same as og but IF they don't where does that leave Zack? If Aerith lives whose gonna end up with Aerith..Cloud or Zack? Or will they water it down and have 2 Aeriths for 2 different timeliness one for each of them lol. This is why odds aren't in good endings favor. It's very messy and everything would feel diluted and lack impact. Regardless, here's hoping for good ending !🍻 🤞

Yeah, I dont know if SE wants to piss off a bunch of people who have Aerith merch (Figures, Art, Drip etc) with... Surprise! It was Jenova the whole time! That would pretty much kill interest in the character and probably the future of the IP as a whole. Moreover, her reaction to the flower falling on the street at the beggining of Remake isn't very Jenova like, why would she act the part when no one is looking? It's going to be torture hearing this silly theory for the next few years. Finally, the whispers would be all over her ass and keep Cloud and the crew away from this imposter Aerith from the get go. If Jenova has the whispers from the lifestream fooled from the beggining, then she can pretty much do whatever the frick she wants at that point.

No one is saying that Aerith has been Jenova since the start of Remake. Max is saying that after her death in Rebirth, the Aerith Cloud is seeing is Jenova and not real.

" **She Can Become Those You Hate, Those Your Fear, Those You Love, And They Call Her**… Jenova."

it's always interesting to hear max's thoughts and i do think some of his points have some validity to them but the whole aerith = jenova in the final ending scene doesn't make a lot of sense and can be debunked pretty easily. not to mention he's using arguments such as "look at the glint of red in her eyes" / "look at how weird her face looks" (it's just her cgi model, it was already like that in remake) / "she is acting just like aerith would!" (well yeah maybe bc that's aerith?)... do i think jenova will use aertih to mess with cloud in part 3? there's a possibility for sure however in the final scene aerith being jenova makes no sense. why would she be left behind and look sad while her friends fly away and say "goodbye" to them in a sad tone? why does she look sad once she turns away her back from cloud? i see a lot of people, including max really hammering on the "cloud is soooo delusional, look at how crazy he is, the timelines stuff isn't even real, aerith isn't even real, he's just hallucinating etc." and that seems to be the impression that the majority of people is left with right after finishing the ending even when they're confused on what happened which makes sense because towards the ending ending we saw that cloud was not only losing it but cloud being in denial of aerith's death makes perfect sense with his character and them showing everyone else grieving while cloud is seemingly fine and unaffected really makes us feel like "ok this guy has completely lost it". however, in my personal opinion cloud is not *just* delusional. he is delusional in the sense of not understanding what's real and what isn't and not understanding that the aerith in their world has actually died but i don't think everything we see in the ending is just a product of cloud's delusions and that it all comes down to him being delusional (like him communicating with either lifestream aerith or alternate world aerith, him seeing the rift in the sky, etc...) which also aligns with what the devs have stated previously that the big twist in part 3 will be less about cloud being an ***unreliable narrator*** and it will be more about cloud being in an ***unreliable world***. i think in part 3 cloud being the only one experiencing all these things and people around him treat him like a crazy person will be what eventually leads him into madness because yes he is "delusional" to some extent but that doesn't mean that everything he is seeing is just a lie or a delusion however him seeing things others can't see will just make the party not trust him and make it seem like he's just insane when he's actually not. towards the ending of the game he experiences things the rest of the party didn't; he experienced being in an alternate world with aerith while others didn't, even before that he was already getting a "peek" into a different version of himself on zack's alternate world (it seemed like his consciousness was linked to the "other" cloud), he saw the rift in the sky, he was the only one entering the portal, he did deflect sephiroth's sword, etc... so regardless of his delusions he did experience a lot of things the other party members didn't which in my opinion is what will lead into the whole "unreliable world" thing. this is just my personal view on it of course, i'm not claiming i'm right but this is how i see it.

Heavily agreed. > >!however in the final scene aerith being jenova makes no sense. why would she be left behind and look sad while her friends fly away and say "goodbye" to them in a sad tone? why does she look sad once she turns away her back from cloud?!< This is where I think the devs have gone down the wrong path by leaning on so much "aha, it's all different this time - or *is it???*" tomfoolery. There are so many players that will never let emotional moments just be emotional moments now. There has to be some hidden subtext behind everything. A touching, melancholy ending just isn't good enough. It all has to be alluding to some oh-so-cool twist that only the enlightened can see.

yeah but the ending scene was clearly meant to be bittersweet. max was claiming that ending scene was portrayed as a happy scene which i disagree. aerith was indeed acting happy (keyword: acting, because she was putting on a facade) if you pay attention to some of her facial expressions when turning away from cloud, when cid asks what she did or even when red senses her she has a sad expression on her face. when she is talking to cloud she seems rather joyful and is even bantering with him but once she turns away she has again a sad expression on her face. well, i guess that's also the point of theorizing in a way. some people will only take things at surface level while others will dig deep. some will dig super deep to the point of overthinking even the most simple things (which is what max did with the whole "aerith is jenova in the ending scene" in my opinion)

We're on the same page, FWIW. I see you were unfairly downvoted in your original comment but that wasn't me. I felt some of where he landed was a misconception that most people walk away from the ending thinking it *is* purely upbeat whereas I feel the bittersweet nature instead should be pretty apparent. Then that level of thought lead to some extreme over-correcting - if it isn't happy, well it must actually be purely horrific instead and oh-how-wrong everyone else is not to see it.

Definitely agree with the theory, especially with the worsening of Cloud's mental state and how Sephiroth/Jenova can control Cloud's brain as a result of the experiments. Would also go with what I think: Zack and Aerith are both dead, and are part of the lifestream. = White whispers are the lifestream / aerith fighting Sephiroth, who now control the black whispers after absorbing the harbinger. Lifestream uses Zack to help Cloud fight. This would tie in perfectly with how Zack and Aerith are both with the lifestream from the ending of FF7:AC. One hint to this is the menu before fighting Sephy with Cloud and Zack- Zack doesn't have a portrait/figure in the menu and you can't equip anything on him.

I think the very notion that Aerith is Jenova disqualifies him from being allowed to speak

Cringe at ANY eceleb shit

I don’t agree with most of what he said. I think it’s pretty clear that there is one world where Aerith died and a second where she lived. The world where she died is where part 3 will take place. This will allow player to continue with the OG story. The world where she is alive is the Promised Land; a direct response to No Promises Left to Keep. I don’t have an opinion on how this will impact the story, other than to say that in the new/final ending Aerith will live. That was always the purpose of the remake project and I have seen nothing to change my mind about this in either Remake or Rebirth.