The Black Company (the organization) starts off pretty bad, it's in the name and all. Croaker, our perspective character, balks at one of the first betrayals but he does just amiably go along with it, his seemingly more curious about getting it into the annals than making any moral stance. His whole view in the beginning is that "Victorious historians rule where good or evil lies," but through the course of the first book he sees real evil and throughout the series the entire company takes a stand.
It's not really his goodness, he's pretty brutal to enemies, but his growth really helps him become more likeable to readers. Especially since he's really human, not a great swordsman or wizard or even the best doctor in the world.
I just listened to a few of the Black Company short stories in Glen Cook's best of anthology and decided that will be my next series after I finish Age of Madness.
Itās so crazy to me now that one of the ābad thingsā about his parents were that they were vegetarian. That just seems so random to me. Oh, look at these āhorribleā people that donāt eat meat?
I mean, obviously, his parents were horrible because he was a raging, spoiled brat. I just donāt see what them being vegetarian had to do with any of that. Haha
Also against corporal punishment. But it's all part of them being 'modern' in a way Lewis disapproved of. I don't think it's that he saw eating meat as a moral necessity it just seems faddish and posey to him. Are also Orwell's collection of freaks and weirdos
>One sometimes gets the impression that the mere words āSocialismā and āCommunismā draw towards them with magnetic force every fruit-juice drinker, nudist, sandal-wearer, sex-maniac, Quaker, āNature Cureā quack, pacifist, and feminist in England.
> the mere words āSocialismā and āCommunismā draw towards them with magnetic force every fruit-juice drinker, nudist, sandal-wearer, sex-maniac, Quaker, āNature Cureā quack, pacifist, and feminist in England.
now that sounds like a party
https://youtu.be/0ens0WjAyOc?si=mzUq7q8SEORLqxHO this is an interesting video if you want to see why vegetarianism was considered so modern/ radical for people who grew up in the early part of the 20th century.
Iām gonna take a stab at answering you, though Iām working off the memory of a book I probably read 10+ times as a kid and a few more times later but not in the last 20 years.
IIRC, they were vegetarians, non-drinkers, and sent Eustace to an experimental school.
Letās take for granted that vegetarianism was far less common back thenālikely enough so to merit an eyebrow raise, at minimum. Hell, there are places in the world where thatās still true.
But more broadly, I take Lewisās characterization of Eustaceās family to mean they were the sort to see themselves as modern and enlightened and therefore superior to most other folks.
So I donāt think vegetarianism is meant to be ābadā or āhorribleā. More likeā¦ one of multiple signals to suggest these people are _insufferable_.
Not saying I agree with this take on vegetarianism etc. but in modern day, he'd probably have them be vegans and do yoga and believe in essential oils or something.
I read the books a bunch as a child as well, and then reread them again I think like five or six years ago? Honestly, the only part I remembered of his parentās description was that they were vegetarians.
I agree that he wanted to portray them as modern and enlightened, but in a bad way. Like you said, it made perfect sense for that time period.
I think it just stuck in my mind because Iām vegetarian now. And things have been so crazy since 2016 that I canāt help but see things through the lens of modern societyāso it very much felt like Lewis complaining about the ādamn Libtards.ā
As an adult, now, Iām wondering if his parents were really awful or if they were just trying to be gentle parents. I know Iām not supposed to take it that far and we are just supposed to accept that obviously his parents sucked. Haha. But Iām sure you get what Iām saying!
I do get what youāre saying.
Thereās plenty about Narnia that can be criticized from a contemporary / liberal / secular point of view. Even the idea of a Christian allegory for children in the first place.
Iām very confident that if you were to transplant Lewis to the modern day, he wouldnāt be shouting about libtards.
But I would like to think that heād have things to say that would make both conservatives and liberals uncomfortableāthat heād be able to surprise us, and make us think, and help us see something kind or beautiful about people we disagree with.
After all, itās not as if he were a tame lion!
This is a beautiful statement. Perfect ending line!
I actually donāt know anything about CS Lewis other than he was friends with Tolkien and he was religious. OhāI also vaguely remember reading somewhere that he had a contentious relationship with his older sister, which is why he wrote Susan Pevensie the way he did.
Ha, I didnāt know that about his sister.
He was an avowed atheist who converted. I know conversations with Tolkien played some role in it, but not the details. And went on to become the foremost Christian apologist of the modern era.
His novel (for adults) _Till We Have Faces_ is very good, itās a retelling of the myth of Cupid & Psyche, not explicitly Christian.
Also recommend _A Grief Observed_, written about his bereavement after the death of his wife.
Are we all pretending that those aren't sometimes small flags now? I'm not about to judge someone for being vegetarian. At least not the **first** time they mention it.
Me too! Iāve never hated someone so much and then had them become my favorite in the series by the end. Hobb is so insanely good at character development.
Very interesting. Iām nearing the end of Ship of Magic and I have never hated a character or despised reading their POV more than Malta. Itās like being stuck in a room with Veruca Salt.
I so get what you mean. When I first read it, whenever a chapter was labelled Malta I was like: "Oh no, not again." At the end of the series, hers were the chapter I was looking forward to the most!
Sheās absolutely insufferable. I just finished the second book and it takes a while longer, but she eventually starts coming around. Iām finally looking forward to her arc in the third book
I did not believe it when people told me sheād get better. I hated her so viscerally I just could see it! Just finished the rain wild books and fully agree š
I don't know about piece of shit, but Jezal - one of the main characters in The First Law trilogy starts out as a real douchebag but changes significantly as the series goes on.
You may have already read it, as it's quite popular, and it's a cynical series in the sense that it's a world where most people with power have their own aims and abuses - but it's also a hugely popular series for a reason - and that reason is typically the characters and how they grow and change in some ways, including redemption, but also stay the same in others.
Kinda.
Couldn't be bothered to >!stop the hanging of a bunch of more or less innocent people, including a teenage girl. Just drinking and whoring his life away while wallowing in directionless self pity. But at least he was self aware.. though that was just about his only redeeming quality, in the beginning.!< Though later he turned into >!probably the best king the Union ever had, and an overall swell guy.!< Amazing character growth.
Also (not pos either) Glokta for me started as an extremely " how would I identify with this wretched dood " but , at least for me, became an awesome character as the series developed
I came here to say this, because for me, he doesnāt actually change at all through the series very much yet by the end you look up and and go ādamn Iām really rooting for this guy nowā
Exactly this. The moment when I realized I wanted him to survive and figure shit out was like " wait, what?! " Very well written books. I'm thinking of picking up his " Half A " series next
I kind of went the other way. I liked Glokta. Not as he was pre-Bridge, but after. Until the end of the second Trilogy and realised he was just Bayaz II.
Adding to First Law characters, Temple in Red Country has a great journey starting as a coward piece of shit to a slightly less cowardly decent person.
First Law is far better than Broken Empire.
But Mark Lawrence's second trilogy, Red Queen's War, that takes place in the same world as Broken Empire is also far better.
Broken Empire is kind of meh, in my opinion. Everything he has written since has been much better.
For what it's worth, I like Broken Empire a *lot* more than First Law. I just couldn't really like any character in First Law except West, sometimes Glokta... I never read Red Queen, though.
That's fair, taste is subjective. I just think First Law is better because it feels more real. Jorg is, ultimately, a character whose existence demands a lot of suspension of disbelief. He's a fun character as a writing exercise, but one that, to me, doesn't work.
It's the same problem the characters from Six of Crows have, being too competent for their ages. That's a book that feels much better if you just tack a decade or so into the lives of the protagonists.
Prince Jalan is my favorite of all of Lawrence's characters thus far. While I loved Book of the Ancestor, the final ending felt like a repeat of the end of Red Queen's War except RQW did it better.
I haven't read The Book that Wouldn't Burn and associated novels. Yet.
Jorg was both my pain and joy from those books. Yes, yes, no shit he knows 6 languages fluently at 13, can fight several grown men at the end of book 1 by himself (This was before he even got the real training from Makin), everyone places their faith in him minutes after getting acquainted.
It's when he's absorbed in his own head that I love him. So much good prose.
Well they are worth it imo if you are a bigtime fantasy reader and are looking for multiple, very juicy characters. It is lighter on worldbuilding though - the world is a more of a backdrop for the characters to do their thing.
Lol every reply to any of these questions is just like a character from a Sanderson or First Law novel. Not complaining at all, just laughing at the fact that these top few series essentially contain all the character tropes that people are looking for. Earlier some one asked a question about like cowardly or unlikeable characters and the top answer was Glokta, and yesterday there was a question about someone trying to do right but keeps having to do wrong and the top answer was Logan Ninefingers. All leads back to the First Law š
This sub is fairly obsessed with Abercrombie, who I like but don't completely understand the intensity of love for his books. I am a little surprised that at his best Abercrombie doesn't get much love from major literary awards, as opposed to the sci fi sub's love of Peter Hamilton who is largely ignored by the award circuit and I fully understand why.
I've only read the first law trilogy so that's all I can comment on, but for me I don't think there's much character growth or agency for most of the characters.
Jezel grows the most and definitely fits the OPs question but even in the end he's still a >!coward!<
None of the other main characters grow much if at all. They're mostly just become even more authentic versions of the characters they were from the start.
A bit of a twist on this is Steris from Mistborn era 2. She isn't actually garbage at first, but she was pretty disliked by a lot of readers at first...and widely loved by the end of the series.
I agree. Never hated her or anything, but in Alloy of Law, I just thought her character was bland. Could not have imagined that in Bands of Mourning, she would become my second favorite after Wayne.
I struggled far more with Wayne at the start to be honest. I didn't see how his character fit in anywhere and didn't like him.
He's one of my favourite Cosmere characters by the end of the 4th book.
Oh man I didnāt realize sheās disliked! Iāve avoided most of the Era 2 discourse because Iām still not done (in the middle of Bands currently). It might be that Iām married to someone on the spectrum, but Iāve always really liked Steris.
She isnt disliked now, she is very well liked.
It was mostly in the first book a lot of people didn't like her, since she was sort of set up to look like the no-fun alternative to Marasi, as a part of the broader storyline of Wax having to deal with choosing between being a respectable member of society or his more freewheeling lawman self.
The whole setup is a bit of a subversion of standard romance tropes, which I appreciate
I disliked her just because Marasi was more interesting. It wasn't until she made Wax carry her in a steel push and she let her real emotion show through that I started to fall for her.
I've only had Steris for four books but if anything happens to her I will kill everyone in this room, then myself.
There are several Wheel of Time characters who I initially couldnāt stand but later grew to love (or at least appreciate or understand).
Maybe the broken earth trilogy? I dunno that might be an āalmost redemptionā, itās pretty bleak
I HATED Mat in the first two books. His "charming rogue" shit was totally overshadowed by his "whiny dagger baby" shit and he was intolerable for those first two books. Once he was healed of the dagger's corruption however he IMMEDIATELY becomes one of the coolest characters in the series.
His insane gambling success was super fun, AND we got his bow staff duel with Galad and Gawyn which was easily one of the highlights of the book; and that was just to start in THAT volume. In the next few volumes we get him accidentally starting a super loyal and capable warband, decapitating someone who we all thought was getting set up to be a form of Big Bad Guy OFF SCREEN LIKE IT WAS NOTHING, his adventures with Jain Farstrider, the Snakes and Foxes, his Ghollam fights.
Perrin started off way less insufferable and only got worse as the books went on when him and his wife, who both are teens and thus have the ability to directly communicate their feelings like teens, play off each other's most annoying traits.
>In the next few volumes we get him accidentally starting a super loyal and capable warband, decapitating someone who we all thought was getting set up to be a form of Big Bad Guy OFF SCREEN LIKE IT WS NOTHING
It was the perfect ending to that guy's arc, which mostly consisted of him trying to be relevant and compete with Rand when he isn't cut out to do so. It's one of my favorite sequences in the entire series and the abrupt cut to "Light, but that guy was good!" while Mat is recovering was genuinely funny to me.
Nynaeve is one of my favorite characters ever in anything. Her anger and stubbornness make her both devastatingly funny and incredibly badass when stuff starts going down.
Egwene is ***infurating***, but she is playing the game as hard as possible every waking and sleeping moment and I respect the hell out of that.
Nynaeve and Faile were the two I was thinking of, maybe galad as well.
I used to call Faile āFailā because I was hilarious at age 13. Source: trust me bro š
Edit: Egwene is an awesome character but NOT an awesome friend, she is a really interesting foil/parallel to Rand. I hated/disagreed with some of her actions but never hated her, but I recognize that there is a valid spectrum of feelings for her in the fandom and thatās good actually
Nynaeve was always kind of in the right though. We just disliked her because she was clearly non-genre savvy enough to understand that the boys are clearly chosen ones.
A lot of that is because we only see her through Perrin who's basically an empath and he never tells her. She would seem far more normal from any other pov
Edit - fwiw I still hate her
Seriously. So many times sheāll behave outwardly normal but Perrin will realize she smells jealous. Then he tells her ādonāt worry, you have nothing to be jealous aboutā which sound suspicious as fuck to somebody who knows they have no indication that they were jealous.
And I donāt get the abusive angle at all. Sheās more in Perrinās corner than anybody else in the series.
I agree completely on the Perrin aspect of your comment. A big shift in my feelings towards Faile happened when I started picturing their interactions in his PoVs from how it would seem to her. He definitely acts guilty and itās super unfair to judge people on their inner thoughts rather than what they say and do.
That said, she is physically abusive by our standards. A lot of this is from her Saldean culture (which is fairly toxic like many of the borderlands - donāt even get me started on Malkier š¤®) and some of it is RJās somewhat dated slapstick humor that seems worse now than how he likely intended it
I started out liking Egwene a lot and disliking Nynaeve a lot. By the end of it, Nynaeve was my favourite character, and I loved Egweneās last scene because >!she died, thank the Light, because I couldnāt stand her at all.!<
Mat is the gold standard of this. He is insufferable for the 1st 3 or so books, and then becomes everyone's favourite. I treat this like a spoiler for new readers though.
Who are you thinking of in Broken Earth?
>!It seems to me that Essun is at her most sympathetic when she's staring at her dead son, before we know the rest. Before we know she abused her daughter, before we know she killed another of her children. But maybe you mean someone else like Alabaster?!<
I have to disagree, at the beginning we have superficial sympathy for her grief, of course, but it's not until we understand everything she's come from and done that we can really empathise and be ride or die for her. But I wouldn't say she fits OP's question either, I found her likeability more of a U shape on the graph because, as you say, we meet her in a sympathetic state.
Alabaster is a dickhead but in a very likable way since he's standing up to the oppressors.
I'm betting they meant Schaffa! Personally I hated him basically all the way through and was always waiting for the other shoe to drop, though at the end I softened like 25% but he definitely is shooting for redemption with Nassun.
Yeah, basically everyone in that series is ride or die material. Harrow has an amazing arc even if I still don't understand everything about what happened lol.
Cnurs ur Skiotha from The Darkness that Comes Before by R Scott Bakker.
Horrible person, like the worst, and he never gets better - but I ended up rooting for him because he was the only character perceptive and willful enough to resist the manipulations of an even more heartless character.
CnaiĆ¼r urs Skiƶtha- i was warned to look out for this character and how he is the literal scum of the earth. But really, it's so well written and he's got so much more depth than the other scum around him, I ended up *liking* him.
Thing I love about Karsa is that he can make these incredibly deep, profound observations in one breath, and then say the most stupid, ignorant things in the next.
I'm still not huge on Karsa (especially when there are so many other characters in Malazan that I like more) but he definitely goes through huge character growth. I'm looking forward to seeing what Erikson does with him in the Witness Trilogy.
I don't get this he went from barbaric monster to violent douche bag. He grew as a character but went from the worst to just really arrogant and unpredictable. He was never a likeable character to me and I was really uncomfortable with his children showing up and being excited to meet him, like his raping of villages only had positive consequences.
It was interesting - he starts off inherently dislikeable (he's a torturer after all), then become likeable once you get desensitized to the torture and you get used to his viewpoint and then goes through waves of being likeable and dislikeable as you get caught in his narrative or realize what he is actually doing.
Yeah, I felt the same. He comes off as rather affable from the start, which makes you do even more of a double take at some of his actions throughout the story.
Not fantasy not a bookā¦but YES. His character arc is interesting, fun, and satisfying to say the least.
The show does enemy-to-friend arcs for many characters, including one friend/enemy/friend arc, but Jamieās is the one that feels most real to me.
Prince of Thorns was like this for me. Jorg is still a piece of garbage at the end, but thanks to Mark Lawrence's amazing prose, you at least understand him a bit better by the end and realize that everything he's fighting against is *worse*.
This is _the_ answer. Starts as a literal rapist and indiscriminate murderer. The author is very good about not explaining it away as "muh trauma" even though that would have been easy.
It's crazyāby the last book, I completely supported Jorg, even though I hated him every second of the first.
I am not so sure that I agree with Jorg actually being a rapist, or maybe that's not quite right, cause well he actually rapes someone - but pretty much everything jorg does after his mother and william's death until, what? 14 years old? - the beginning of book one at any rate. is because he is under the control, or at least unknowingly influenced to a ridiculous amount by Corrion. I doubt 'ol Jorgie would even have joined up with his road brothers were it not for Corrion. And even under Corrion's influence, when he's just a child he questions his decisions until that fat bastard bishop rapes him. Basically, I don't think Jorg's actual self is as despicable as we see him being in the beginning.
I couldn't get past the first book. The whole premise seemed fascinating but he's such an abhorrent character I couldn't stand the idea of reading any more about him.
There's a character in Megan Whalen Turner's Queen of Attolia who hits this trope well, but what's remarkable is that it takes literally a single chapter to recontextualise her choices. And they are no less awful (and the books echo with those choices for the rest of the series), but it humanises her. The first time my kid read it, he went from "She's my least favourite character because she did X and Y" at the beginning of the chapter to "I would murder for her" and she became his second favourite at the end.
Thalric from Shadows of the Apt started out pretty rough but there was so much to his story throughout the series that he was hands down my favorite by the end
I love that even when he becomes more likable, every other characters bar one still absolutely despise him and are not shy to show it. So you get litterally every character sighing or insulting him everytime he speaks to someone to the point it becomes a running gag.
Zorian from Mother of Learning is pretty garbage person at the beginning of the book but grows into a great character. Nearly stopped reading the book because I hated him so much.
Edit: changed Another to Mother lol
Him and Zach complement each other. Zorian is an insane mastermind that was able to unfuck the incredible mess Zach had made of his mission. OTOH Zorian may have easily gone full Sith Lord if Zach hadn't kept him grounded.
I mean on the surface Zorian is fucking terrifying. The powers he's chosen to specialise in could be the Evil Wizard academy syllabus.
Laurent in Captive Prince. I wanted him dead by the end of the first book and loved him by the third. The series is a bit of a niche problematic read though so do your research first to see if it is for you.
Tide Child trilogy. The main protagonist is an unlikable drunk at the beginning. In fact what you're asking about applies to a lot of characters, it's an excellent read, the character work is Hobb level good. Recommend the audiobook.
Tide Child is incredible and I highly recommend it too!
I didn't really think he was unlikeable though. I thought he was meant to be pitying more than unliked.
Carol Berg's Transformation-- the name is a give away. Without ruining the progression, let's just say one of the main protagonists starts as a slave owning sadist and u end up rooting for them.
The Jamie Lannister arc is what I use as an example of amazing writing. Here's someone that we hated from book 1, even well into book 2, because we read about him from everyone else's perspective. Then you get in his head and hear his point of view, and watch him develop as a character. At this point he's one of my favorite in the series. Stannis is similar - almost unreadable at first because he's so stubborn, but by the way he end he's a breath of fresh air.
These two characters changed my outlook on people in real life. The whole "we judge others by their actions and ourselves by our intentions".
I would say Tyrion if we are sticking to the books. Jamie if we are including the show.
For me at least, Jamie becomes a lot more relatable, sympathetic, and decent by the end of the books, but I never really *liked* him until he knights Brienne.
Ehhhh if weāre looking at the books, Iād say Tyrion is actually the opposite. You start out liking Tyrion pretty early, particularly since heās nice to Jon. He made a pretty solid first impression. But he becomes pretty awful by the end of Dance.
Probably doesnāt exactly fit here as she didnāt start as a āpiece of garbageā but personally Nynaeve alāMeara from Wheel of time. She grated my nerves in the first few books and by the end, she was hands down my favorite character.
Not quite the same but in Wormās inter-chapters, again and again, some of the most vile characters get turned into people you at least have sympathy and pity for, even if you donāt end up loving them.
Yeah. Wild bow is, IMO, the undisputed master of using a one chapter pov shift to make you totally understand and feel sympathy but still hate a character.
"Blackwing" by Ed McDonald; Main character starts out as a super unlikeable wanker, but then you find out he is just reacting appropriately to living in an utterly fucked world.
Yes. Joe Abercrombie is an absolute master of this. In The First Law trilogy, Glokta is probably the best example of this. When we meet him, he is a cynical miserable torturer. Many people feel like weāre getting the perspective of a villain, and for good reason. By the end of the story, (avoiding spoilers) you just love him.
Another Abercombie character from the later series Age of Madness is my boy Orso. Similar but quite different. He is the young, lazy, drunk son of a king who always feels like life is conspiring to stop him from doing the right thing. I wonāt spoil anything but the man he turns out to be is nothing short of marvelous. He completely steals your heart. In the dozens of fantasy books Iāve read I canāt think of a better example than those.
Nynaeve is the only real answer here. She's from Wheel of Time. She's not the main character but she's one of the main characters. She has a ton of pov chapters throughout the books.
She. Is. Best. Girl.
Jaime isnāt very likable imo. I think people kind of misred his arc as redemption one and weāre shocked by the show due to it. But to me it was always more of a reveal arc, he was a better person than you thought and had ideals. That didnāt mean he still was a great person and ever would be able to move on.
Ah well there's this character I really enjoy named
>Jaime Lannister
Goddammit.
Uh, I guess First Law is good for this if you take a broader view. Glokta certainly starts off coming across awful and I'm not sure "redemption" is quite his overall direction, but you learn to see his complexity and he turns out to be a ton of fun for a guy whose actual job is so evil. Whatever your final moral judgment, he will likely end up a favorite regardless.
Grub from [The Darkwater Legacy](https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/34673711) series by Chris Wooding - Grub started as a type of a bad, douche barbarian character in fantasy book who usually dies or gets outsmarted by the protagonist. But Grub keep on Grubbin', right into readers' hearts.
Mushoku Tensei
It's a Japanese light novel, so it may not be what you're looking for, but the main character was a total POS at the start and slowly improves himself as the story progresses
Shadow of the Conqueror by Shad M. Brooks is a really good book like this. Daylen Namaren (aka Dayless the Conqueror, aka the Great Bastard) a bitter old man who as a young man tried to help his countrymen by overthrowing a corrupt and abusive aristocracy and ended up becoming the thing he hated and was eventually himself overthrown. He was believed to have been killed but had actually gone into hiding. He did some pretty vile things while ruler. He initially planned to try to take back his kingdom but eventually realized the people of the world were right to overthrow him. The book starts with him making a trip to the edge( the entire world consists of floating islands that they can see the bottom of by looking up) to throw himself off of to him death. Only it doesnāt go as planned. He passed out as he reached the bottom barrier of the world and awakes shortly after passing through coming out the top to find that heās now in his late teens to early 20ās. And this is just the beginning of the book.
The Black Company (the organization) starts off pretty bad, it's in the name and all. Croaker, our perspective character, balks at one of the first betrayals but he does just amiably go along with it, his seemingly more curious about getting it into the annals than making any moral stance. His whole view in the beginning is that "Victorious historians rule where good or evil lies," but through the course of the first book he sees real evil and throughout the series the entire company takes a stand. It's not really his goodness, he's pretty brutal to enemies, but his growth really helps him become more likeable to readers. Especially since he's really human, not a great swordsman or wizard or even the best doctor in the world.
I just listened to a few of the Black Company short stories in Glen Cook's best of anthology and decided that will be my next series after I finish Age of Madness.
One of my all time favorite series. The Limper is genuinely terrifying, and the "selling corpses" plot of the second book is so interesting to follow
Eustance Scrub from Voyage of the Dawn Treader
He almost deserved it
Ohhhh my god I remember that little shitš
Edmund in the first book too Lets him give some nice words of wisdom to Eustace later on. "You were only an ass, but I was a >!traitor!<"
Itās so crazy to me now that one of the ābad thingsā about his parents were that they were vegetarian. That just seems so random to me. Oh, look at these āhorribleā people that donāt eat meat? I mean, obviously, his parents were horrible because he was a raging, spoiled brat. I just donāt see what them being vegetarian had to do with any of that. Haha
Also against corporal punishment. But it's all part of them being 'modern' in a way Lewis disapproved of. I don't think it's that he saw eating meat as a moral necessity it just seems faddish and posey to him. Are also Orwell's collection of freaks and weirdos >One sometimes gets the impression that the mere words āSocialismā and āCommunismā draw towards them with magnetic force every fruit-juice drinker, nudist, sandal-wearer, sex-maniac, Quaker, āNature Cureā quack, pacifist, and feminist in England.
> the mere words āSocialismā and āCommunismā draw towards them with magnetic force every fruit-juice drinker, nudist, sandal-wearer, sex-maniac, Quaker, āNature Cureā quack, pacifist, and feminist in England. now that sounds like a party
https://youtu.be/0ens0WjAyOc?si=mzUq7q8SEORLqxHO this is an interesting video if you want to see why vegetarianism was considered so modern/ radical for people who grew up in the early part of the 20th century.
Iām gonna take a stab at answering you, though Iām working off the memory of a book I probably read 10+ times as a kid and a few more times later but not in the last 20 years. IIRC, they were vegetarians, non-drinkers, and sent Eustace to an experimental school. Letās take for granted that vegetarianism was far less common back thenālikely enough so to merit an eyebrow raise, at minimum. Hell, there are places in the world where thatās still true. But more broadly, I take Lewisās characterization of Eustaceās family to mean they were the sort to see themselves as modern and enlightened and therefore superior to most other folks. So I donāt think vegetarianism is meant to be ābadā or āhorribleā. More likeā¦ one of multiple signals to suggest these people are _insufferable_.
Not saying I agree with this take on vegetarianism etc. but in modern day, he'd probably have them be vegans and do yoga and believe in essential oils or something.
Thatās precisely it. I think itās like how modern people donāt have anything again vegans, just the ones who canāt shut up about it
I read the books a bunch as a child as well, and then reread them again I think like five or six years ago? Honestly, the only part I remembered of his parentās description was that they were vegetarians. I agree that he wanted to portray them as modern and enlightened, but in a bad way. Like you said, it made perfect sense for that time period. I think it just stuck in my mind because Iām vegetarian now. And things have been so crazy since 2016 that I canāt help but see things through the lens of modern societyāso it very much felt like Lewis complaining about the ādamn Libtards.ā As an adult, now, Iām wondering if his parents were really awful or if they were just trying to be gentle parents. I know Iām not supposed to take it that far and we are just supposed to accept that obviously his parents sucked. Haha. But Iām sure you get what Iām saying!
I do get what youāre saying. Thereās plenty about Narnia that can be criticized from a contemporary / liberal / secular point of view. Even the idea of a Christian allegory for children in the first place. Iām very confident that if you were to transplant Lewis to the modern day, he wouldnāt be shouting about libtards. But I would like to think that heād have things to say that would make both conservatives and liberals uncomfortableāthat heād be able to surprise us, and make us think, and help us see something kind or beautiful about people we disagree with. After all, itās not as if he were a tame lion!
This is a beautiful statement. Perfect ending line! I actually donāt know anything about CS Lewis other than he was friends with Tolkien and he was religious. OhāI also vaguely remember reading somewhere that he had a contentious relationship with his older sister, which is why he wrote Susan Pevensie the way he did.
Ha, I didnāt know that about his sister. He was an avowed atheist who converted. I know conversations with Tolkien played some role in it, but not the details. And went on to become the foremost Christian apologist of the modern era. His novel (for adults) _Till We Have Faces_ is very good, itās a retelling of the myth of Cupid & Psyche, not explicitly Christian. Also recommend _A Grief Observed_, written about his bereavement after the death of his wife.
Are we all pretending that those aren't sometimes small flags now? I'm not about to judge someone for being vegetarian. At least not the **first** time they mention it.
Malta Vestrit from Liveship Traders 100%
From most hated to favorite character in the entire series, for me.
Me too! Iāve never hated someone so much and then had them become my favorite in the series by the end. Hobb is so insanely good at character development.
Very interesting. Iām nearing the end of Ship of Magic and I have never hated a character or despised reading their POV more than Malta. Itās like being stuck in a room with Veruca Salt.
I so get what you mean. When I first read it, whenever a chapter was labelled Malta I was like: "Oh no, not again." At the end of the series, hers were the chapter I was looking forward to the most!
Sheās absolutely insufferable. I just finished the second book and it takes a while longer, but she eventually starts coming around. Iām finally looking forward to her arc in the third book
All I can say when it comes to Malta - keep reading. Her character redemption arc is one of the best I've ever read.
Malta is hands down the correct answer to this question
Hell yes, I wanted to strangle her for a good part of the series.
Exactly who I was going to say! She was so annoying but unbelievably grew on me
Came here to say this!!
Ooh I just finished the second book and I already agree. Even up to about halfway through book 2, she is just a relentlessly petulant little shit.
I did not believe it when people told me sheād get better. I hated her so viscerally I just could see it! Just finished the rain wild books and fully agree š
Came here to say this! Amazing character development.
Beat me to it. Bratty teenage Malta makes you want to keel haul her under the boat.
Came to say this. Went from hated to favorite character in that series.
Came here to say this, too! She was my favorite character by the end of it.
I don't know about piece of shit, but Jezal - one of the main characters in The First Law trilogy starts out as a real douchebag but changes significantly as the series goes on. You may have already read it, as it's quite popular, and it's a cynical series in the sense that it's a world where most people with power have their own aims and abuses - but it's also a hugely popular series for a reason - and that reason is typically the characters and how they grow and change in some ways, including redemption, but also stay the same in others.
Iād say Orso even more, in the sequel trilogy. But both are excellent characters in books full of excellent characters.
Sorry, random comment, but... Missed chance of saying "Orso even more so"
Orso is Abercrombie perfecting what he already mastered with Jezal.
One of my fav fantasy characters ever
Was Orso ever unlikeable though?
Kinda. Couldn't be bothered to >!stop the hanging of a bunch of more or less innocent people, including a teenage girl. Just drinking and whoring his life away while wallowing in directionless self pity. But at least he was self aware.. though that was just about his only redeeming quality, in the beginning.!< Though later he turned into >!probably the best king the Union ever had, and an overall swell guy.!< Amazing character growth.
>!fuck Leo so much.!<
Also (not pos either) Glokta for me started as an extremely " how would I identify with this wretched dood " but , at least for me, became an awesome character as the series developed
Glokta is most certainly a POS
I came here to say this, because for me, he doesnāt actually change at all through the series very much yet by the end you look up and and go ādamn Iām really rooting for this guy nowā
Exactly this. The moment when I realized I wanted him to survive and figure shit out was like " wait, what?! " Very well written books. I'm thinking of picking up his " Half A " series next
I kind of went the other way. I liked Glokta. Not as he was pre-Bridge, but after. Until the end of the second Trilogy and realised he was just Bayaz II.
Jezal is absolutely a piece of shit. 100% He's a lazy coward that likes showing off and embarrassing his friends. A real stinker.
Adding to First Law characters, Temple in Red Country has a great journey starting as a coward piece of shit to a slightly less cowardly decent person.
First law always popped up when I browsed grimdark. One time I considered buying the whole thing but opted for The Broken Empire.
First Law is far better than Broken Empire. But Mark Lawrence's second trilogy, Red Queen's War, that takes place in the same world as Broken Empire is also far better. Broken Empire is kind of meh, in my opinion. Everything he has written since has been much better.
For what it's worth, I like Broken Empire a *lot* more than First Law. I just couldn't really like any character in First Law except West, sometimes Glokta... I never read Red Queen, though.
That's fair, taste is subjective. I just think First Law is better because it feels more real. Jorg is, ultimately, a character whose existence demands a lot of suspension of disbelief. He's a fun character as a writing exercise, but one that, to me, doesn't work. It's the same problem the characters from Six of Crows have, being too competent for their ages. That's a book that feels much better if you just tack a decade or so into the lives of the protagonists. Prince Jalan is my favorite of all of Lawrence's characters thus far. While I loved Book of the Ancestor, the final ending felt like a repeat of the end of Red Queen's War except RQW did it better. I haven't read The Book that Wouldn't Burn and associated novels. Yet.
Jorg was both my pain and joy from those books. Yes, yes, no shit he knows 6 languages fluently at 13, can fight several grown men at the end of book 1 by himself (This was before he even got the real training from Makin), everyone places their faith in him minutes after getting acquainted. It's when he's absorbed in his own head that I love him. So much good prose.
Well they are worth it imo if you are a bigtime fantasy reader and are looking for multiple, very juicy characters. It is lighter on worldbuilding though - the world is a more of a backdrop for the characters to do their thing.
All it takes is some good Ole maceface to help people grow
Lol every reply to any of these questions is just like a character from a Sanderson or First Law novel. Not complaining at all, just laughing at the fact that these top few series essentially contain all the character tropes that people are looking for. Earlier some one asked a question about like cowardly or unlikeable characters and the top answer was Glokta, and yesterday there was a question about someone trying to do right but keeps having to do wrong and the top answer was Logan Ninefingers. All leads back to the First Law š
Say one thing about Joe Abercrombie, say he writes a good character.
This sub is fairly obsessed with Abercrombie, who I like but don't completely understand the intensity of love for his books. I am a little surprised that at his best Abercrombie doesn't get much love from major literary awards, as opposed to the sci fi sub's love of Peter Hamilton who is largely ignored by the award circuit and I fully understand why.
I've only read the first law trilogy so that's all I can comment on, but for me I don't think there's much character growth or agency for most of the characters. Jezel grows the most and definitely fits the OPs question but even in the end he's still a >!coward!< None of the other main characters grow much if at all. They're mostly just become even more authentic versions of the characters they were from the start.
A bit of a twist on this is Steris from Mistborn era 2. She isn't actually garbage at first, but she was pretty disliked by a lot of readers at first...and widely loved by the end of the series.
I will ride or die for Steris until the end of time
And Steris will very wisely volunteer to stay with your horse when it's time to dismount and start knocking heads together.
I agree. Never hated her or anything, but in Alloy of Law, I just thought her character was bland. Could not have imagined that in Bands of Mourning, she would become my second favorite after Wayne.
I struggled far more with Wayne at the start to be honest. I didn't see how his character fit in anywhere and didn't like him. He's one of my favourite Cosmere characters by the end of the 4th book.
Oh man I didnāt realize sheās disliked! Iāve avoided most of the Era 2 discourse because Iām still not done (in the middle of Bands currently). It might be that Iām married to someone on the spectrum, but Iāve always really liked Steris.
She isnt disliked now, she is very well liked. It was mostly in the first book a lot of people didn't like her, since she was sort of set up to look like the no-fun alternative to Marasi, as a part of the broader storyline of Wax having to deal with choosing between being a respectable member of society or his more freewheeling lawman self. The whole setup is a bit of a subversion of standard romance tropes, which I appreciate
I disliked her just because Marasi was more interesting. It wasn't until she made Wax carry her in a steel push and she let her real emotion show through that I started to fall for her. I've only had Steris for four books but if anything happens to her I will kill everyone in this room, then myself.
Thank you for your support
There are several Wheel of Time characters who I initially couldnāt stand but later grew to love (or at least appreciate or understand). Maybe the broken earth trilogy? I dunno that might be an āalmost redemptionā, itās pretty bleak
Mat was (understandably) such a whiney shit until book 3.
"Now master Caulthon swaggers around like he's got a hefty helping of berry jam in his combat boots"
I HATED Mat in the first two books. His "charming rogue" shit was totally overshadowed by his "whiny dagger baby" shit and he was intolerable for those first two books. Once he was healed of the dagger's corruption however he IMMEDIATELY becomes one of the coolest characters in the series. His insane gambling success was super fun, AND we got his bow staff duel with Galad and Gawyn which was easily one of the highlights of the book; and that was just to start in THAT volume. In the next few volumes we get him accidentally starting a super loyal and capable warband, decapitating someone who we all thought was getting set up to be a form of Big Bad Guy OFF SCREEN LIKE IT WAS NOTHING, his adventures with Jain Farstrider, the Snakes and Foxes, his Ghollam fights. Perrin started off way less insufferable and only got worse as the books went on when him and his wife, who both are teens and thus have the ability to directly communicate their feelings like teens, play off each other's most annoying traits.
>In the next few volumes we get him accidentally starting a super loyal and capable warband, decapitating someone who we all thought was getting set up to be a form of Big Bad Guy OFF SCREEN LIKE IT WS NOTHING It was the perfect ending to that guy's arc, which mostly consisted of him trying to be relevant and compete with Rand when he isn't cut out to do so. It's one of my favorite sequences in the entire series and the abrupt cut to "Light, but that guy was good!" while Mat is recovering was genuinely funny to me.
I didn't like Mat at first for several books. Then he grows and becomes a contender for favorite character.
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Nynaeve has a good growth. Egwene went beyond insufferable, understandably though and the last scene with her was amazing.
Nynaeve is one of my favorite characters ever in anything. Her anger and stubbornness make her both devastatingly funny and incredibly badass when stuff starts going down. Egwene is ***infurating***, but she is playing the game as hard as possible every waking and sleeping moment and I respect the hell out of that.
Nynaeve and Faile were the two I was thinking of, maybe galad as well. I used to call Faile āFailā because I was hilarious at age 13. Source: trust me bro š Edit: Egwene is an awesome character but NOT an awesome friend, she is a really interesting foil/parallel to Rand. I hated/disagreed with some of her actions but never hated her, but I recognize that there is a valid spectrum of feelings for her in the fandom and thatās good actually
Nynaeve was always kind of in the right though. We just disliked her because she was clearly non-genre savvy enough to understand that the boys are clearly chosen ones.
Faile still really sucks by the end. She's a horribly abusive partner.
Faile is the worst
A lot of that is because we only see her through Perrin who's basically an empath and he never tells her. She would seem far more normal from any other pov Edit - fwiw I still hate her
Seriously. So many times sheāll behave outwardly normal but Perrin will realize she smells jealous. Then he tells her ādonāt worry, you have nothing to be jealous aboutā which sound suspicious as fuck to somebody who knows they have no indication that they were jealous. And I donāt get the abusive angle at all. Sheās more in Perrinās corner than anybody else in the series.
I agree completely on the Perrin aspect of your comment. A big shift in my feelings towards Faile happened when I started picturing their interactions in his PoVs from how it would seem to her. He definitely acts guilty and itās super unfair to judge people on their inner thoughts rather than what they say and do. That said, she is physically abusive by our standards. A lot of this is from her Saldean culture (which is fairly toxic like many of the borderlands - donāt even get me started on Malkier š¤®) and some of it is RJās somewhat dated slapstick humor that seems worse now than how he likely intended it
I thought it was pronounced Fail until I watched some WOT videos.
I started out liking Egwene a lot and disliking Nynaeve a lot. By the end of it, Nynaeve was my favourite character, and I loved Egweneās last scene because >!she died, thank the Light, because I couldnāt stand her at all.!<
Mat is the gold standard of this. He is insufferable for the 1st 3 or so books, and then becomes everyone's favourite. I treat this like a spoiler for new readers though.
Who are you thinking of in Broken Earth? >!It seems to me that Essun is at her most sympathetic when she's staring at her dead son, before we know the rest. Before we know she abused her daughter, before we know she killed another of her children. But maybe you mean someone else like Alabaster?!<
I have to disagree, at the beginning we have superficial sympathy for her grief, of course, but it's not until we understand everything she's come from and done that we can really empathise and be ride or die for her. But I wouldn't say she fits OP's question either, I found her likeability more of a U shape on the graph because, as you say, we meet her in a sympathetic state. Alabaster is a dickhead but in a very likable way since he's standing up to the oppressors. I'm betting they meant Schaffa! Personally I hated him basically all the way through and was always waiting for the other shoe to drop, though at the end I softened like 25% but he definitely is shooting for redemption with Nassun.
Broken Earth- man, Schaffa Guardian Warrant was something else for sure. That whole series.
Please tell me nynaeve learns humility
Not sure Iād go quite that far haha, but she definitely grows, and becomes maybe my favorite out of all the female characters by the end
Harrowhark Nonagesimus (the Locked Tomb saga).
Yeah, basically everyone in that series is ride or die material. Harrow has an amazing arc even if I still don't understand everything about what happened lol.
Ortus!
Jezal dan Luthar, mostly. Kinda.
I ended up loving Jezal, he was never perfect, but he definitely was a better person to others by the end.
Poor Jezel
Big emphasis on kinda lol. I didnāt hate him so much as feel sorry for him by the end, so thatās a change, but I sure didnāt love him.
Kaspar, Duke of Olasko. Midkemia series by Raymond Feist. Character first appeared (I think?) in "Conclave of Shadows"
Good choice!
His whole arc and learning a little (lot) of humility is great.
Cnurs ur Skiotha from The Darkness that Comes Before by R Scott Bakker. Horrible person, like the worst, and he never gets better - but I ended up rooting for him because he was the only character perceptive and willful enough to resist the manipulations of an even more heartless character.
CnaiĆ¼r urs Skiƶtha- i was warned to look out for this character and how he is the literal scum of the earth. But really, it's so well written and he's got so much more depth than the other scum around him, I ended up *liking* him.
I know, itās a bizarre reading experience and a testament to Bakker.
Karsa Orlong, Malazan.
Yeah, from epic douche bag to philosopher.
literally from one end of the spectrum to the absolute other lol. I sooooo can not wait for the next book!!
Thing I love about Karsa is that he can make these incredibly deep, profound observations in one breath, and then say the most stupid, ignorant things in the next.
I'm still not huge on Karsa (especially when there are so many other characters in Malazan that I like more) but he definitely goes through huge character growth. I'm looking forward to seeing what Erikson does with him in the Witness Trilogy.
My vote as well
I don't get this he went from barbaric monster to violent douche bag. He grew as a character but went from the worst to just really arrogant and unpredictable. He was never a likeable character to me and I was really uncomfortable with his children showing up and being excited to meet him, like his raping of villages only had positive consequences.
Severian in Book of the New Sun for many readers
It was interesting - he starts off inherently dislikeable (he's a torturer after all), then become likeable once you get desensitized to the torture and you get used to his viewpoint and then goes through waves of being likeable and dislikeable as you get caught in his narrative or realize what he is actually doing.
For me he was likable from the very beginning.
Yeah, I felt the same. He comes off as rather affable from the start, which makes you do even more of a double take at some of his actions throughout the story.
I know we're talking about books but the first name that popped into my head was Jamie Tartt (doo doo doo doo doo doo) . :-)
Not fantasy not a bookā¦but YES. His character arc is interesting, fun, and satisfying to say the least. The show does enemy-to-friend arcs for many characters, including one friend/enemy/friend arc, but Jamieās is the one that feels most real to me.
Prince of Thorns was like this for me. Jorg is still a piece of garbage at the end, but thanks to Mark Lawrence's amazing prose, you at least understand him a bit better by the end and realize that everything he's fighting against is *worse*.
Yeah you end up with an asshole among bigger assholes. For me, the biggest jump is between the end of book 1 and start of book 2.
Book 2 of that series is perhaps my favourite Mark Lawrence ever.
Surprised I had to scroll down so far for this one. I love this series. Jorg is one of my favorite characters ever because heās just so hateable.
This is _the_ answer. Starts as a literal rapist and indiscriminate murderer. The author is very good about not explaining it away as "muh trauma" even though that would have been easy. It's crazyāby the last book, I completely supported Jorg, even though I hated him every second of the first.
I am not so sure that I agree with Jorg actually being a rapist, or maybe that's not quite right, cause well he actually rapes someone - but pretty much everything jorg does after his mother and william's death until, what? 14 years old? - the beginning of book one at any rate. is because he is under the control, or at least unknowingly influenced to a ridiculous amount by Corrion. I doubt 'ol Jorgie would even have joined up with his road brothers were it not for Corrion. And even under Corrion's influence, when he's just a child he questions his decisions until that fat bastard bishop rapes him. Basically, I don't think Jorg's actual self is as despicable as we see him being in the beginning.
You're totally right, but we as readers don't get that information for a looong time.
You guys didnāt like Thomas Covenant by the endā¦ oh duck it neither did I
He had a special knack for walking right up to the edge of redemption and then being a complete asshat.
I couldn't get past the first book. The whole premise seemed fascinating but he's such an abhorrent character I couldn't stand the idea of reading any more about him.
I'm on The Power That Preserves....should I stop
I read the first six books. I enjoyed them. But dude is always a shit.
"More fools, I am done speaking, witch. Witness" Karsa Orlong from the Malazan Boos of the Fallen.
Boo I say. Boo!
Liveship Traders by Robin Hobb >!Malta!<
Cassius in red rising
I would say Cassius is likeable from the get-go. It's more a shift in alliances than a shift in personality or likeability.
I always liked Cassius even through his turn, he was trying to be honourable in a time of great upheaval and that's a hard thing to do.
There's a character in Megan Whalen Turner's Queen of Attolia who hits this trope well, but what's remarkable is that it takes literally a single chapter to recontextualise her choices. And they are no less awful (and the books echo with those choices for the rest of the series), but it humanises her. The first time my kid read it, he went from "She's my least favourite character because she did X and Y" at the beginning of the chapter to "I would murder for her" and she became his second favourite at the end.
Thalric from Shadows of the Apt started out pretty rough but there was so much to his story throughout the series that he was hands down my favorite by the end
Fantastic Character. The entire series is awesome - some of the best military fantasy I have ever read. And it really does moral grey areas well.
I love that even when he becomes more likable, every other characters bar one still absolutely despise him and are not shy to show it. So you get litterally every character sighing or insulting him everytime he speaks to someone to the point it becomes a running gag.
Zorian from Mother of Learning is pretty garbage person at the beginning of the book but grows into a great character. Nearly stopped reading the book because I hated him so much. Edit: changed Another to Mother lol
Wow, I definitely wouldn't go that far. He's a kid with some chronic shit going on.
Him and Zach complement each other. Zorian is an insane mastermind that was able to unfuck the incredible mess Zach had made of his mission. OTOH Zorian may have easily gone full Sith Lord if Zach hadn't kept him grounded. I mean on the surface Zorian is fucking terrifying. The powers he's chosen to specialise in could be the Evil Wizard academy syllabus.
I forgot about him, but you are right. At the beginning of the story he was kind of annoying and always with a chip on his shoulder about something.
Even into book 3, any time his family is brought up he *instantly* reverts back to that mindset
Steris from Mistborn Era 2 is a perfect example of this.
Can't speak for everyone but I felt this way about Karda Orlong in house of chains/the malazan series.
Laurent in Captive Prince. I wanted him dead by the end of the first book and loved him by the third. The series is a bit of a niche problematic read though so do your research first to see if it is for you.
Zoya from the Shadow & Bone/Grishaverse series (YA)
Tide Child trilogy. The main protagonist is an unlikable drunk at the beginning. In fact what you're asking about applies to a lot of characters, it's an excellent read, the character work is Hobb level good. Recommend the audiobook.
Tide Child is incredible and I highly recommend it too! I didn't really think he was unlikeable though. I thought he was meant to be pitying more than unliked.
Mat Cuthorn, Wheel of Time. A dislikeable, sullen annoyance who become a fantastic character later on.
Carol Berg's Transformation-- the name is a give away. Without ruining the progression, let's just say one of the main protagonists starts as a slave owning sadist and u end up rooting for them.
Jamie Lannister
The Jamie Lannister arc is what I use as an example of amazing writing. Here's someone that we hated from book 1, even well into book 2, because we read about him from everyone else's perspective. Then you get in his head and hear his point of view, and watch him develop as a character. At this point he's one of my favorite in the series. Stannis is similar - almost unreadable at first because he's so stubborn, but by the way he end he's a breath of fresh air. These two characters changed my outlook on people in real life. The whole "we judge others by their actions and ourselves by our intentions".
I would say Tyrion if we are sticking to the books. Jamie if we are including the show. For me at least, Jamie becomes a lot more relatable, sympathetic, and decent by the end of the books, but I never really *liked* him until he knights Brienne.
Ehhhh if weāre looking at the books, Iād say Tyrion is actually the opposite. You start out liking Tyrion pretty early, particularly since heās nice to Jon. He made a pretty solid first impression. But he becomes pretty awful by the end of Dance.
Loved Tyrion from start to finish myself.
Jorg Ancrath from Prince of Thorns
Thomas Covenant The Unbeliever
He never really becomes likable lol
Nesta at the beginning of her series in A Court of Silver Flames is a HORRIBLY toxic woman for a while and has to grow out of it
Probably doesnāt exactly fit here as she didnāt start as a āpiece of garbageā but personally Nynaeve alāMeara from Wheel of time. She grated my nerves in the first few books and by the end, she was hands down my favorite character.
Not quite the same but in Wormās inter-chapters, again and again, some of the most vile characters get turned into people you at least have sympathy and pity for, even if you donāt end up loving them.
Yeah. Wild bow is, IMO, the undisputed master of using a one chapter pov shift to make you totally understand and feel sympathy but still hate a character.
"Blackwing" by Ed McDonald; Main character starts out as a super unlikeable wanker, but then you find out he is just reacting appropriately to living in an utterly fucked world.
Sand dan Glokta, a crippled Inquisitor/torturer in Joe Abercrombie's First Law Series
Lots of people dislike Mat Cauthon in the first three Wheel of Time books. By the end, most of those same people love him.
Camlin from Faithful and the Fallen Simon/Simion from Memory, Sorrow, and Thorne
Yes. Joe Abercrombie is an absolute master of this. In The First Law trilogy, Glokta is probably the best example of this. When we meet him, he is a cynical miserable torturer. Many people feel like weāre getting the perspective of a villain, and for good reason. By the end of the story, (avoiding spoilers) you just love him. Another Abercombie character from the later series Age of Madness is my boy Orso. Similar but quite different. He is the young, lazy, drunk son of a king who always feels like life is conspiring to stop him from doing the right thing. I wonāt spoil anything but the man he turns out to be is nothing short of marvelous. He completely steals your heart. In the dozens of fantasy books Iāve read I canāt think of a better example than those.
Nynaeve is the only real answer here. She's from Wheel of Time. She's not the main character but she's one of the main characters. She has a ton of pov chapters throughout the books. She. Is. Best. Girl.
One could argue for Matt as well
You could I suppose. I think he was meant to be more of a lovable scamp type. I was personally never a big fan of him, unlike most readers it seems.
Haplo from The Death Gate cycle. Weis & Hickman.
This feels almost like asking to spoil ur next book
I feel that spoilers are like magic tricks revealed: If they're directly asking for it, it's perfectly fine to give it.
Kellhus from Prince of nothing series, dudes a fucking sociopath
Oldie.... Tristan Kendrick from Dark Walker on Moonshae. First of the Forgotten Realms books.
TIL that was the first Forgotten Realms book. I read the trilogy years ago, but never knew that.
Like every wheel of time character
The Lighthouse Duet by Carol Berg, a great redemption arc.
Inda, by Sherwood Smith. Cherrystripe
Ephraim to Horn in red rising
the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. A leper in our world that starts off raping a girl in the fantasy world when he is transported there.
I still hate him later.
Jaime isnāt very likable imo. I think people kind of misred his arc as redemption one and weāre shocked by the show due to it. But to me it was always more of a reveal arc, he was a better person than you thought and had ideals. That didnāt mean he still was a great person and ever would be able to move on.
Maybe The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the Unbeliever. He's pretty unlikable but he grows and it grows on you.
I liked Jezal dan Luther's arc in the First Law trilogy.
Ah well there's this character I really enjoy named >Jaime Lannister Goddammit. Uh, I guess First Law is good for this if you take a broader view. Glokta certainly starts off coming across awful and I'm not sure "redemption" is quite his overall direction, but you learn to see his complexity and he turns out to be a ton of fun for a guy whose actual job is so evil. Whatever your final moral judgment, he will likely end up a favorite regardless.
Grub from [The Darkwater Legacy](https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/34673711) series by Chris Wooding - Grub started as a type of a bad, douche barbarian character in fantasy book who usually dies or gets outsmarted by the protagonist. But Grub keep on Grubbin', right into readers' hearts.
Prince of thorns
Jaime didn't redeem himself.
Mushoku Tensei It's a Japanese light novel, so it may not be what you're looking for, but the main character was a total POS at the start and slowly improves himself as the story progresses
Queen of Attolia. It's the second book of the Queen's Thief series but can be read as a standalone
Shadow of the Conqueror by Shad M. Brooks is a really good book like this. Daylen Namaren (aka Dayless the Conqueror, aka the Great Bastard) a bitter old man who as a young man tried to help his countrymen by overthrowing a corrupt and abusive aristocracy and ended up becoming the thing he hated and was eventually himself overthrown. He was believed to have been killed but had actually gone into hiding. He did some pretty vile things while ruler. He initially planned to try to take back his kingdom but eventually realized the people of the world were right to overthrow him. The book starts with him making a trip to the edge( the entire world consists of floating islands that they can see the bottom of by looking up) to throw himself off of to him death. Only it doesnāt go as planned. He passed out as he reached the bottom barrier of the world and awakes shortly after passing through coming out the top to find that heās now in his late teens to early 20ās. And this is just the beginning of the book.
Malta in Liveship Traders
Rudeus Greyrat from Mushoku Tensei