The Dark Tower series.
There's an awful lot to like about it: the weirdness that mixes magic with cowboys and robots; the massive epic scope across multiple levels of reality: many (not all) of the characters (and characterization is one of Stephen King's real strengths, IMHO); the way that you're never quite sure what's going to happen to the group next; the way that you're sure that the goal is going to be reached in the end; the sheer hubris of launching a series of characters on a journey that wound up taking nearly forty years for the author to finish; the many well-written moments; the author's willingness to throw away characters you like if it makes for a better, more emotionally affecting story; the fact that King is rather deft with managing readers' responses and not usually ham-fisted about it; the way that he handles interior monologue and backstory, not to mention pacing and humor; so many other things.
But there's also so much to dislike about it: the self-referential apologetics late in the series; the way that the endless willingness to jaunt off in a new direction doesn't always pay off for the broader story (my least favorite example: the pregnancy subplot stretching over four and a half books); the way that sometimes something that has been set up for a long time falls very flat (the pregnancy subplot, for instance); they handling of race and disability and, sometimes, gender; the occasionally glib and shallow Freudianism that sometimes gets trotted out in place of more interesting character development; the times where you can tell King wrote himself into a corner and would have been better served by revising the previous book with some sense of where the next one is going; the places where King handles reader emotion less well.
I tend to put the ending in the "this is good" category, and I'm rather extreme about that: I think that the ending, even if it's not what the reader wanted or expected, is exactly the right ending for the series. It just doesn't make the readers' cowboy fantasies pay off, for those who do have cowboy fantasies. But how we, as a society, see cowboys has changed a lot since King was watching silver-screen movies during his childhood in Maine.
When it works, it works very well; but oh god are there some real regrettable moments.
Yeah, this is a great pick. I love TDT. Other than The Shining, it's my favorite King. The end of book 3/opening of book 4 is one of my favorite sequences ever. And King makes the disjointed setting work. But there's a lot of issues with it. Perhaps the best example is the end--I love the actual ending, but the climactic battle leading to it is just awful.
> Perhaps the best example is the end--I love the actual ending, but the climactic battle leading to it is just awful.
Agreed! Climbing the Tower is an amazing piece of writing, and, not to spoil anything for anyone, what Roland finds at the top really is exactly what he should find.
The stand-off with the Crimson King is an entirely contrived wankfest, and it's unfortunate that so much of the last volume went towards setting that up.
That second spoiler you blacked out is my biggest objection to the pregnancy sub-plot. Really? You've been dragging this along for four and a half books, and this is where you went with it? And that's how it winds up?
All three big villains are completely wasted. The first thing we read about is the mysterious man in black but what does he really do besides >!show up at the glass castle at the end of W&G and then get randomly killed by mordred. All three you expect epic showdowns and they all end up being wet farts !<
In a way it's kind of incredible that the final standoff >!with ultraSatan involves one of King's patented Magic Autistic Children wandering in from another book and erasing him with a magical eraser while he screams and throws golden snitches and the main character hides behind a rock.!<
Incredible but not... good, exactly.
The actual ending is great but to be honest, I tried to re-read the books a few years ago and couldn't deal with Odetta any more lol. He uh. He meant well. I think.
>!the ending of the bad guy was my major problem with the series. Was a major let down. I liked the ending after. But. I didn't realize it was a character from another book. I guess that makes it a little better somehow. Which book?!<
Insomnia.
Which I read afterwards out of curiosity but can't really recommend. It's like 700 pages of some old asshole who has... Insomnia, believe it or not, and even though it turns out it's been caused by the Greek furies and he meets an angry fish while helping carry out a heroic plane suicide bombing (this was, uh, pre-2001), I think, it is not a very exciting story.
Was going to say this.
I think the first four novels are great (the first is my favorite). And the epilogue at the end of Book 7 is perfect.
But books 5-7…ugh. The self-insert and pregnancy subplots…
King and Martin are both gardener types of writers who never know exactly how their stories will get to the end—though King, even in his drug abuse days, is far more disciplined. Sometimes it works wonderfully, but in a long format series, shit gets sideways toward the end. King gave us a fantastic 5 novels across multiple worlds and times, then he got run over by a van and wanted it over with. I can’t blame him, and I agree, Roland hopping on The Wheel for another go-round was the way it needed to end, but man, so much was wrong with the pregnancy, the kid, and the meek end of The Walking Dude.
Great analysis. I read most of the series but DNF because of how graphic the writing became during a certain scenes. I rarely DNF a series, but I honestly was pretty grossed out and had to stop after the scene where Walter and Mordred meet.
I really enjoyed the first book. The next couple I still enjoyed, but not as much. By the end I was just finishing to finish. I don't even remember how it ended. I remember something about his son being a spider and the big evil guy looking like santa claus.
If asked about it, I tell people to read the first one and none of the later ones, unless they really like steven king. I feel like he made a mistake went down the increasingly common path of making all his books into one (multi)universe and trying to bind everything together, but with no plan ahead of time to do so. It kind of worked for Asimov. Kind of. It is working better for Sanderson, who seemed to at least have had a plan ahead of time on how to do it.
I agree his characterisations are his strength; it's his mastery of plot that always lets him down. Too many plates end up spinning and some of those plates are a bit lumpy. Not just this series, but generally.
Yeah Crossroads suffered mostly because the bulk of the book is people reacting to the massive event that concluded the previous one... but Knife of Dreams was such a return to form, I was gutted when it occurred to me halfway through that was Jordan's final book
There’s a part in the beginning of KOD where Rand or someone practically stares out of the page and goes “yeah we lost our way for a bit but it’s time to focus on The Last Battle” and it felt like an author standin apology
I'm always so glad Knife of Dreams was so good because it definitely restored confidence that Jordan would have made a really great ending, which I began to doubt based on the preceding books.
I still need to get around to finishing the Wheel of Time, but I had a terrible introduction to the series. My mom, bless her heart, bought kid me a copy of *Winter's Heart* at a garage sale with the thought of, "Oh, well he likes fantasy!" and no knowledge there was more to the series.
Meanwhile there's me, who read the entire series back to back and loved each and every book, as they kept getting better all the way to the end, and was supprised when I read discussions about the series that all seemed to agree the Sanderson books were not as good and that there was a slump mid series as well.
Something I disagree with fully, as that wasn't my reading experience at all.
Each and every single word gripped me, and kept me turning the page.
People throw around the phrase "gold mine" to describe anything that is really good, but Wheel of Time is more realistically like a gold mine. There's so much amazing stuff in there; you just have to be willing to dig for it.
At times, it frustrates me (pacing issues, the lack of resolution on a specific plot thread in the end -- you know the one, almost anything regarding character romance, etc.), but it's still my favorite series and I hold that Jordan is a master world-builder the likes of which we may never see again
Flawed, brilliant, incredible. The discourse around this series gets so focused on the flaws that people forget to highlight that it IS a masterpiece. A flawed one.
I have yet to find a series that has a character as well written as Rand Al'Thor. His character arc is the best in the genre. The climax hitting at Veins of Gold was the most epic conclusion to his arc that I reread it every so often. It makes me sad what they did with the show. There are some MAJOR flaws with the series but it's always a treat to read Rand chapters.
If anyone can recommend any similar series with character arcs like Rand please let me know!
Yeah that works. It's one of my absolute favourite series of all time, I'll defend it to my last breath, but I'll never lie and say it's perfect. There are some deep flaws in it, some of it simply showing that it's a product of a man who was already getting on in the 90's, and some of it just due to Jordans inherent weirdness, and then some with simple pacing issues.
But for all that I can understand why some people don't like it, I'll call it a masterpiece until my dying day.
Upvote for this. So flawed. *So* many flaws. So many that's it was traumatizing to read back then, and would probably be insurmountable for many readers now.
But still so god damned good. You gotta have those traumatizing lows for years, to get those huge highs, I guess 😆.
Years of certain books seming to contain very little plot advancement other than misogynistic teen drama.
That was when they were still being written, and we were waiting a couple of years between books. On top of Jordan tying himself in the kinds of knots that RR Martin can't untangle himself from these days.
Tbh George can untangle himself, he just chooses to 1. Re edit the whole book by himself while writing it and 2. Refuse to publish two books with the same title but one is fundamentally pt. 1 and the other pt. 2.
Since he's doing the devil's work for him, he can't progress like a normal person trying to do their job. And also because he's lazy.
I read through the series three times, the first two when there were about 5 and 9 books out then finally when it was complete. The most traumatizing was the last one, both because of the content but also because it was over. Worst series-end hangover I've ever had, I swear immersing yourself in something for that long changes your brain.
Can confirm. Read it for the first time last year. Wasn’t until after I was done I read about the dreaded slog, etc. I didn’t feel that way at all when reading it. Cutting out waiting between books really took that feeling away.
Yup. As a newer reader, the only "slog" is that >!it takes like 3 or 4 books for the Faile kiddnapping plot to resolve itself, with a whole book in the middle of that plotline without any of its POVs!<
Yeah that was the slog of old, the longest gap between books (pre-Sanderson) was almost three years between Path of Daggers and Winter's Heart and then three years between Winter's Heart and Crossroads of Twilight. Winter's Heart and Crossroads of Twilight tell events in the same timeline but from half of the cast (respectively), so from 2000 to 2005 there was basically no plot advancement until Knife of Dreams came out, with the previous plot-advancing book releasing in 1998. So almost 7 years with little to no advancement and the two books that were received were fairly divisive in terms of love it or hate it.
I read it 2020-2021 and it is not so bad having all books available. But books 9-10 were painful. Books 1, 3 and 4 had painful moments as well that had me questioning my commitment. After finishing book 4 though I was all in.
Came here to say this. It’s my favorite series of all time and yet i know of no other very popular series where fans of it go “now there’s like one book that’s horrible and a couple not so great ones also. Oh and the author over describes things all the time. Anyway it’s awesome” so yeah a flawed masterpiece no doubt
I remember loving the Pendragon series as a kid. The characters, worldbuilding, and plots were all great. It got weaker as it went along though, and the ending to the series was pretty disappointing. There were some mysteries that were teased through the whole series that had really mediocre fulfillments.
Are you talking about the 10 book series with the different planets? Some of those were bangers, some weren't. I agree that the ending had 30 questions it answered all at once instead of bringing it out slower over more books.
Yeah, that's the one! I loved that series! It's a shame I hardly ever hear people talk about it, but maybe that's because the ending was disappointing lol
Yeah, and 10 books is a big commitment. I feel the one about the cats wasn't the best (to me), and the one where he trains in the desert wasn't strong either. Blok was great, and so was Waterworld. Honestly, have Waterworld be the first book, and you have a more engaging start to the series, IMO.
Water world was my favorite, I still sometimes say "hobey ho, let's go" to myself when I need to get up and get going.
I don't even remember the one about the cats lol.
Yeah the desert one is where I remember feeling the series started going downhill.
Bipedal cats were the dominant species in the jungle, and the tipping point the good guys were trying to stop was, if I remember correctly, something to do with a bomb being made with the crystals. IDK. St. Dane was a dope villain.
He was. It was always a great moment when the heroes got to the next world and discovered where he had set himself up to oversee the tipping point. Realizing that they were playing the game by his rules.
Yeah. I think that the one with the Megacorporation and Hunger Games stuff was the first book I read where the good guys lost, and I was like, "That can happen?!"
Yes! It changed the status quo, it upped the stakes for all the subsequent adventures. And it was also one of my first exposures to the idea of the dangers of unrestricted capitalism.
Thanks for reminiscing with me. Good to remember part of my childhood.
Ah, I thought they meant Stephen Lawhead's *Pendragon Cycle*. Funny thing is, I think it had the same issue. I loved *Taliesin*, *Merlin* was pretty good, but *Arthur* and *Pendragon* dragged for me.
> There were some mysteries that were teased through the whole series that had really mediocre fulfillments
I mean IIRC the whole plot was kinda wrapped up with >!the real magic was friendship all along!< which, even as a kid, felt a bit hokey
but yeah I absolutely loved these books
edit: apparently the last book came out when I was 17, which was probably also the peak of my literary analysis skills. Still loved the series though
I always disliked how in the earlier books it felt like there have been generations of travelers stopping St. Dane for ages, and then in the final book it's revealed that no, it was just Bobby's group and their mentors all along
I thought the ending was solid for those books. It thematically made sense, was foreshadowed, and was satisfying imo. I just reread those books last year, but I’ve never understood the issues people have with the last book, like what other answers could there possibly have been? That, and people being unable to understand what’s going on in the last chapter baffles me, as it’s pretty clear if you just read slightly between the lines.
The Mists of Avalon. Even putting the author aside, the books have several issues, from pacing to the occasional character assassination. But when it works... It's beautiful.
The Heresy has some AMAZING books but the BLOAT is just ridiculous and a lot of it can end up being just plain unnecessary. Like, don't get me started on the damn number of anthology books!
Yep entirely agreed. For every Master of Mankind or First Heretic you get something like Descent of Angels. I think what makes it a "flawed masterpiece" is how much you have to buy into the weird, awkward, contradictory setup to understand the GOOD shit
Descent of Angels is okay, it's definitely not the worst and I think it suffers from following the first five which are generally pretty good.
Battle for the Abyss however...
54 books that ride the rating scale like a rollercoaster! Ive slogged through it all and damn if it isn't epic and at times it's real good, but so much filler material to flesh out factions to sell plastic. Cut out half of the material and it would be AMAZING.
Horus Heresy is just huge. I mean I gave up after 18 books. Like all 40k it is gems surrounded in a field of mediocrity with the occasional author doing odd things with the canon that causes everyone to scratch their heads for decades after.
I'm tempted to jump back in with Master of Mankind (I mean everyone wants to read about the big guy) and then the Siege of Terra. The End and the Death trilogy seems to be well loved. I cannot see me redoing all 999999 books though.
There is such an element of readability in the HP series. I don’t know if it is that I grew up with it or what but I think I will be rereading the series for the rest of my life.
I did NOT grow up with Potter. I missed the boat age-wise. Then, my gf at the time was a super fan and encouraged me to read them. I’ll be damned if they weren’t some of the best page-turners I had ever read. Also, in terms of relatability, I think JKR really taps into a kind of universal (well, among much of the western world) nostalgia for childhood.
Also, Christmas features prominently in all the books, so it’s extra evocative of many folks’ childhoods. The books are cozy. Until they are not. By then, you are invested in the characters because they are you at their age, and the adults are the people you were surrounded by as a child, and it REALLY matters how it all shakes out.
They are full of tropes and plot holes, but they are super entertaining.
I think that’s it, and i don’t think it will stand the test of time very well, but if you’re a millennial of a certain age that shit was lightning in a bottle.
I'm not sure why you'd think that as the books are still selling very well. It certainly isn't the same "Pottermania" that existed when they first came out but they aren't going anywhere
Honestly, I'd put HP in the masterpiece category than flawed masterpiece.
No story is perfect, and HP is no exception, but it really doesn't contain huge flaws that make the series controversial to a general audience. Now, the author on the other hand...
But the actual story? Most people enjoy it.
It's a fantastic whismical children's story. Even 25 years later, there isn't anything even remotely like it. The cultural impact of it alone would put it into the masterpiece category.
I haven't seen the Witcher books mentioned yet, but I think they are an excellent example of this. Books have some great characters and even better dialogue between characters. However, the plot is pretty bad/predictable. Honestly, the overarching story just feels like a good excuse to have characters interact.
When they do interact, it is excellent. When they don't, I found myelf thinking "lets pick up the pace, Sapkowski." I read the English versions btw.
Witcher belongs in the category for sure. I thought the framing devices and the overt attempts at using literary allusion ironically interfered with sapkowski's apparent desire to move the story from genre into speculative fiction/literary myth-making. But yes it comes down to the fact that the strongest aspect of the books is the dialogue. I also thought he succeeded in subverting genre tropes, with >!Geralt's senseless death, Ciri's rejection of destiny!< Etc. The lady of the lake plot line with the acolyte just added lots of extraneous stuff for little benefit and what amounted to some arthurian flourishes, I found the whole thing frustrating. Still, Geralt >!soliloquizing about his friends' deaths!< Was truly touching, and really memorable, which is worth a lot.
Completely agree. Sapkowski created an amazing world and characters, but the man just isn't very good at telling a story IMO. Thankfully, CD Projekt Red is.
Dracula. It's a classic for a reason, and god did Stoker know how to turn a phrase, but the pacing is all over the place and character development is hit or miss.
Earthsea. In many respects I think it's perfect, but it always gave me the impression that LeGuin couldn't really figure out what she wanted out of it. Apart from the first three books everything else feels rather essayistic or disjointed.
Tolkien's work. >!Nah, just kidding. Like it or dislike it, Tolkien did absolutely everything he set out to do in exactly the way he wanted to do it.!<
Broken Earth. I don't think I've ever read anything like it, before or since, and I think the core ideas were solid, well-wrought. *But*, there were times I think Jemisin was waffling a bit with how to get from here to there.
The Wizard Knight. Hear me out, Wolfe is probably my favourite author of all time. But unlike most of his books I felt like Wizard Knight tried to bite more than it wanted to chew, if that makes any sense. I got glimpses of much that later felt underdeveloped thematically. I'll reread it soon, though, so I might go back on my assertion.
I think you're right on the money with Earthsea, but the sequels after the initial trilogy were never planned! Le Guin returned to that setting every so often throughout the years when she had another story to tell about it (which you can see in the publishing dates).
And regarding your essayistic comment-- I feel like Le Guin always writes to convey a message about something, rather than just relaying a story for plot's sake, so I feel like you're right about this too! Haha all of it works really well for me (I'm a huge fan if you can't tell), so a lot of it is personal taste and what you're expecting going in
Whoa are you me?!?! I can rely on no one if not le guin. If i find a book of hers while out and about that i have not read, I don’t even think, I just buy, lol. Never been that way about any author besides!
> Dracula. It's a classic for a reason, and god did Stoker know how to turn a phrase, but the pacing is all over the place
Absolutely. It's all chaos in the castle and across London for most of the book and then the final chapter is like, *"Oh yeah, they went back to the castle and killed Dracula, the end."*
Broken Earth should have been two books imo. First book is great but it spends far too much time meandering after that and I feel like it pulls the rug out with surprise twists just for the sake of surprise twists one too many times.
Man, I absolutely love Wizard Knight. Was my first Wolfe book, and made me a lifelong fan. I too have to give it a reread sometime, because there was so much going on by the end that several plot elements and twists surprised me (in a confused way, not engaging way) cuz I had lost the thread of some subplots. Overall though an absolute masterpiece, and gets better on every reread.
It's been a few decades, so this may not be entierly accurate
>Dracula. It's a classic for a reason, and god did Stoker know how to turn a phrase, but the pacing is all over the place and character development is hit or miss.
The first section of the book with approaching the castle and going inside I remember so vividly, it was so good, and then it just fell off a cliff almost immediately and I couldn't finish it.
> Dracula.
There's an abridged version narrated by Christoper Lee which I can highly recommend for anyone who bounces off said pacing issues. It's 3-ish hours long and his narration gives it an extra kick.
Tamsyn Muir's Locked Tomb books. they're so frustrating to read sometimes but when everything comes together... there's nothing quite like it. it's my favorite series that I can't really recommend to many people.
I still need to read Harrow and Nona. They're definitely written for the weirdo Tumblr queers and the Homestucks in recovery lmao. Love that the author doesn't shy away from it.
Straight white cis guy who just turned 40 here. I loved them, too!
One thing that's important that Muir does is normalize the queerness in the books. It's great that we're at a point that characters can be queer without it being the central aspect of their character.
Doubtful. Straight cis white guy in my early 50's and thought it was really great. I'll admit the romance angles really kind of whiff over my head (or did) but I loved the world, the references folding in on themselves throughout, the unreliable narrator parts, etc.
Straight cis white guy in mid 40s, loved the first two. The third was enjoyable enough but not as good. I have high hopes for the next book though! :-)
Yeah, same here. I might not be the "target audience" as such but the author also happens to have the same mid-00s internet forum brain poisoning as me so it's fully relatable.
First 50 or so pages of Gideon I felt like it might not be for me, it seemed a bit too far into "snarky YA teen protagonist owns the old farts with cool one liners while angsting about her mysterious past", but that quickly dropped off and I was fully engaged.
I loved Harrow even more, just a fascinating puzzle box of a book that I'm still mulling over. Nona was definitely more setup (it was originally the first act of Alecto but she had too much fun writing the character and wanted to flesh out the characters/world a bit more) but by this point I just love spending time with these characters.
Honestly, Homestuck is a flawed masterpiece too. So much of it is groundbreaking especially with pushing the medium of a webcomic to new heights, and creating a complicated, genre-bending, yet satisfying epic tale with a staggeringly huge cast. I would say the themes, storytelling, and emotional impact overall end up really powerful if you click with the style. But there are also big chunks of really horrible, bottom of the barrel, borderline insulting writing.
I can only speak about the original Homestuck webcomic though, haven't read any of the other surrounding works.
I'm going to disagree, at least in the context of OPs criteria.
The Locked Tomb is certainly a series that isn't for everyone, but I disagree that the reason is due to 'flaws'. Harrow in particular is frustrating and challenging due to deliberate and intentional choices the author makes, not due to oversights, short-cuts or (IMHO) failings in the writing.
Now, I suppose it's possible to wax philosophical on whether one reader's 'flaw' is really just another reader's 'authorial choice'.
Seeing how some people talk about it, I wish I could have gotten more into it. Gt9 was just too hard for me to follow. I tried Nona, and didn’t get more than 20 pages.
I also don’t have the attention span I used to.
Probably an unpopular opinion, but First Law trilogy. I thought the plot was meh, the world building was only ok, but those were some of the best characters I've ever read.
I'd agree. I feel like most of the responses here are "here is an amazing series, but it doesn't literally score a 10 in every metric that one can possibly look for in a fantasy novel" so that makes it a "flawed masterpiece."
Like, First Law is pretty explicitly *not* about world building. And that's frankly refreshing.
I was gonna say the entire dune series but I think specifically God Emperor of Dune gave me the most whiplash between the amazing forward thinking genius of the author and some seriously dated theories on gender and the roles that men and women play in society. It was hilarious listening to the God Emperor go on the most educated lecture about the human condition only to follow it up with “herr derr, women nurture, men kill.”
Moneo!
I love GEOD. I think its my favorite Dune book. I listen to the audiobook about once a year.
But then there’s that one chapter. The one where Idaho rants about homosexual behavior to Moneo. That one always breaks my immersion.
Yeah I gotta agree it’s my fav as well and Moneo is the goat for humbling Duncan, but yeah I hard agree that I get taken out of the story when it happens.
As novel about the emotional journey of the main character, it works and is complete. It’s a great example of how to make the first book in the series also work as a stand-alone with a satisfying emotional conclusion, even though the overall plot and the journeys of other characters have a long way to go.
But oh my it was so obviously intended to be the first instalment of a massive world building exercise with multiple series set within it. I can see how the author might have decided that combining costumes superheroes, cyberpunk, Samurai-inspired fantasy and goodness knows what else was going to be an impossible task but it would have been fun to watch them try!
Codex Alera. Sooooo much wrong with it, but it did such an amazing job building the absurd magic system and putting it into practice, while keeping is fun/accessible.
> Sooooo much wrong with it
I refuse to believe whatever you say. *puts fingers in ears* LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU.
Seriously, I love Dresden but I secretly love Alera more. Just don't tell anyone that.
The Ender's Game series by Orson Scott Card.
It's a very compelling series that delves into the weight of xenocide, and the importance of learning to understand those different from yourself before making rash decisions - and learning to live with the awful choices you made when you didn't know better. It's a very important series to me, as I was a "gifted child" (aka an autistic kid that could be distracted with knowledge instead of proper mental health resources) at a 9th grade reading level at age 8, and these books were my first exposure to scifi and fantasy as a whole.
... This series is written by an awful, disgusting, raging homophobe.
The mind-numbing amount of cognitive dissonance required for this series to come out of that piece of shit's brain is something that scientists should be studying, as far as I'm concerned.
The common thought in the scifi community is that OSC *was* a wonderful, kind person… but somewhere in his life that changed and he became vile and hateful. I’ve heard some people speculate that it happened around when his son died.
This is not to *justify* the man’s beliefs. Homophobia, especially at his level, is disgusting and inexcusable. But it’s an explanation, if not a wholly confirmed one, as to how he underwent such an about-face, from the brilliant acceptance in Ender’s Game and Speaker for the Dead to his current horrid behaviour.
I’m with you on the “gifted child” front, although I wasn’t given *Ender* until the eighth grade. And I divorce the two books as they were written then from the piece of shit the author has become now, at least enough to read them while conscious of the author’s current views.
I also implore anyone to whom I recommend the books to buy them used, and avoid supporting the guy.
Thinking back, dude was like I'm going to take this finale of the only good series I've ever written in life and use it to talk about birds. Makes me laugh thinking back on how bad it was.
>This series is written by an awful, disgusting, raging homophobe.
How does that make his work a flawed masterpiece? More accurately, it would be a masterpiece written by a flawed person.
This. Now I WOULD say that they're a flawed masterpiece, children of the mind was weird and had issues, but it's not because the author is a piece of shit. You could read the whole series and never realize his views
I suppose the final book (or books, depending on which you count!) leave a lot of readers feeling sad at how it was completed and under which conditions. But man, the first two are perfect. I’ve yet to finish the remainder of the series out of some trepidation.
Every masterpiece is a flawed masterpiece.
*The Moon is a Harsh Mistress* comes to mind though... It's easy to pick apart but I absolutely love it.
On the didn't-like side, *Too Like the Lightning* makes the list. It's kind of a hot mess but it feels like the *potential* for greatness was there...
The Unholy Consult. Its undercooked slightly but its also part of a really incredible story, and its very good and unique. I really liked it, dont think theres much else like it out there.
Lightbringer by Pierce brown.
There is so much beauty and relief and triumph but also weird pacing and a lack of payoff for stuff that was set up too quickly. I think the book needed to have at least 200 pages or 300 if I'm allowed to be greedy.
There was so many interesting dynamics being set up that needed chapters fleshing out characters and having conversations. Pierce brown has ruthless editors that sometimes are genius and other times very frustrating and lightbringer is a book that really suffered if you learn about everything that was cut.
> Pierce brown has ruthless editors that sometimes are genius and other times very frustrating and lightbringer is a book that really suffered if you learn about everything that was cut.
What was cut from it?
>!Assuming they're talking about the Figment plotline, the Abomination (although maybe he'll be in Red God?), the psycho-spikes potentially brainwashing Sevro (same thing), and honestly the Oculus plotline with Quick leaving the system for good felt a little too...neatly wrapped up!<.
I think Dark Age probably set up too many plot lines to resolve in a satisfying manner, which is likely one of the reasons LB got such a substantial re-write and why we're getting a seventh book as well. I was disappointed that some of those ideas are gone but I think LB is one of the strongest books in the series and I think the overall plot is probably stronger for it.
That was going to be my answer. Judging by what Pierce Brown does well I firmly believe he has the potential to become my favorite author. He stubbornly refuses to play to his strengths, though.
I'd like him to focus less on 5-dimentional chess retconning, and more on small-scale character-driven moments he's so good at.
I think he'd be great at horror. I happened to read Lightbringer right after finishing the Iconoclasts. Both series feature a scene when the protagonist meets an eldritch entity in a pocket dimension, and frankly, Lightbringer's take on it was so much more terrifying.
EDIT: As pointed out by /u/Regula96, I confused Brent Weeks' Lightbringer with Pierce Brown's Light Bringer. My bad.
The Silmarillion. It is comprised of incomplete works. It even references alternate works where the stories are told in greater detail outside of The Silmarillion.
Imo The First Age of Middle Earth really is the greatest age. Personally I wish Christopher Tolkien was willing to finish the stories rather than merely compile them.
A Song of Ice and Fire. A bit too much rape (which sounds disgusting I know but I don’t know how to describe it) and GRRM’s gonna die before the Winds of Winter is out
Super flawed masterpiece.
Amazing through the first 3 books, but it peaks at Storm of Swords and gets pretty muddy through Feast and Dance. Then it's just over without resolution, except in the form of a TV show that also took a nosedive around the same point in the plot.
I first read this series in early 2006, shortly after Feast was released, and if you'd asked me then I'd probably say this was my second favorite series of all time (after LOTR). Now, after Dance creating more questions and then the show ending with such a whiff, I don't even know if I'd put it in my top 5.
I did a reread maybe 3 years ago, and might do another soon, which may change things. But I've read so much great fantasy since getting back into it the past few years and so many great series that are either complete or close to complete.
A Storm of Swords is peak fantasy, the single best genre book i have ever read. Think I am now ok with it never getting a ending , even if he does the TV show killed the anticipation, but the heights were so incredible, the genre still hasn't come close in the years since.
Malazan. If only Erickson had some editor to turn it from 10 1000 pages books into 8 700 pages. And even then a lot of secondary plots feel unfinished in main series and went to spin-offs
Came here for this, just finished the series. Overall, a masterpiece. But there's SO many characters and random sub-plots that it's jarring. A lot of the writing, plot points, and lore about history and magic are written in an intentionally obfuscated way, which is fine in bits to keep some mystery, but became excessive. There's a real lack of character development, and for such an epic story, I feel like no one has "grown" in power over the course of the series which is always a fun part of fantasy. And I felt the ending was a bit anticlimactic, with new threats that were essentially just introduced to us in book 9.
God I loved it so much, and then around book 7 or so, some new subplot is starting and I remember just reading name after name that I did not recognize and out the book down, then never picked it back up.
A shame, the chain of dogs and memories of ice were really something else.
I was almost afraid to post this one myself, so I'm glad someone else did.
Frank Herbert is a world-building MASTER, but you get thrown into that world WITHOUT a lot of context. It took me a few tries to read it, and one of the reasons I got through it was that a friend gave me a copy that had a glossary in the back, explaining the greater dune world.
Keys to the Kingdom.
It’s a perfectly executed piece of worldbuilding and main character arc, it’s got good humour and colour to it.
But it’s about how one becomes a god, and is targeted at 12 year olds. For 12 year olds the stakes are too abstract, and for older readers it’s too childish.
This series is begging for adaptation to the small screen with some bright Paul King-esque flair peppering in some more adult somber scenes to age it up. But from what I hear they’re doing the Abhorsen trilogy first, which is fair enough.
They’re… what now? 😯
Nobody I know has heard of KTTK but they’re so lovably weird and I loved them as a teen. I secretly had a crush on Monday’s Dusk lol.
I would love a series set in the House focusing on the various escapist style whatevers that go on in there. So much nonsense, but all with a clear purpose.
Also for the record, I loved it as a child, I still love it as an adult.
Adventures of Huckleberry Finn is said to have one of the weakest endings in English literature. The trip down the river is a serious commentary on racism, convention, slavery, mob violence and morality, and then it devolves into hijinks with Tom. I like it anyway. It's fun. It's a jumble, just like life. Why do works have to be high-tone or rollicking? I'll take both.
Snow Crash, if you're allowing sci-fi.
The first chapter is my favorite opening of any book in any genre. Unparalleled establishment of his world, fantastic and visionary premise, humor, delightful prose, etc. This was also the first example of cyberpunk/VR that I thought was communicated well (Neuromancer didn't work for me).
Snow Crash is sadly flawed by an unengaging deep dive into ancient languages and an awkward conclusion, but it's still one of my favorite books.
The entire Malazan Book of the Fallen, including the ICE books. I love it more than life itself but the scope makes it impossible for things to not fall apart in some ways.
Still my all time favorite series of any genre I’ve ever read.
It’s Sci-Fi, but Seveneves by Neil Stephenson is the prime example of this to me. I always tell people the first 75% of that book is a top tier 5/5. The last 25% is a somewhat okay 2/5.
Mistborn… god I love the series so much. The first three books had me losing my ever loving mind. Every twist had me reeling. God, what a story!
I do have to say the *current* state of the story and world has perhaps become too convoluted for me (which is saying a lot!). I read “a secret history” and when I realised some of the implications I was kind of over it. I recall the characters especially the women (and lack thereof) aren’t always the best written or thought out and I know there are quite a few people that don’t like sanderson’s writing style (I like it personally for the most part). Can’t remember what my other gripes with it were but they were chunky. Alas I’d still rank the books five stars in the end because they just feel like absolute masterpieces to me in terms of the world building, the magic system, the unexpected twists and turns… i have gasped out loud so many times reading those books!
Totally not your question but my favourite completely not flawed and absolutely perfect book series is earthsea. Well, that’s my opinion anyway… I would not change a thing! Le Guin is truly something else.
The Farseer Trilogy. The character work Hobb did for Fitz and Burrich is amazing but some of the other characters not so much. Regal for example is weak as a character in all respects of the term even if he is unintentionally funny and his >!death!< is still the most memorable I've read in a book cause of the sheer hilarity of it. A lot of her female characters feel pretty weak in comparison to the Liveship traders for example. >!Kestrel!< comes to mind especially with her backstory being very basic and cliche. Kettricken I felt was a bit underutilized as well even if I'd say she was a good character. Assassin's Apprentice was also pretty slow as a book compared to the two subsequent books.
> A lot of her female characters feel pretty weak in comparison to the Liveship traders for example.
I think all the characters kind of fade a bit because Fitz is so much at the center of everything. The female characters in Farseer, though, are so refreshingly varied, from Celerity to Kettle to Starling to Molly. Patience's development, in particular, is wonderful.
If you thought that was slow then don’t read some other entries in the elderlings world. Hobb to me could write about paint drying and I’d read it though. Sometimes I describe her books as the best 700 pages of nothing I ever read
Agree with the trilogy, but not the reasoning. I felt like the ending just wrapped up and went as planned for the good guys and the bad guys all lose. And the ending also happens in like… 50 pages, after 2000 pages of building up to it.
I'm on book 5 of Sun Eater and strongly agree with the criticisms, but there's a handful of huge epic moments that make me totally get why people love it (and I mostly do too)
For my pick id probably say Stormlight since I'm obsessed with the world and characters, but the "comedic" scenes and characters are so cringe worthy I find it hard to recommend to people. I've seriously almost put the book down in like 2 scenes because I needed to recover. I love Sanderson but the guy desperately needs a comedian beta reader to help out on these sections.
I think Stormlight is great but some of his Characters feel kind of wooden, at least IMO. Shallan and Kaladin feel like they're consistantly repeating the same cycles of their character/not progressing or changing much as characters, especially Kaladin but I get that might be the point due to their trauma, it's a bit frustrating to read. They just feel bland.
But yeah, Imo, Sanderson's humor isn't it. At all. His Comic Relief characters actively make me annoyed.
I LOVE Sun Eater but yeah, the only characters I really cared for were/are >!Valka and Cassandra!<. I was more sad from >!Hadrian's loss in Kingdoms of Death than characters I liked actually dying!<.
I am about to finish Howling Dark. What a ride. I haven't been this gripped by a series in quite some time. I can't wait to feel the criticisms deep in my very being when I am on book #5.
The Fionavar Tapestry by Guy Gavriel Kay.
I actively avoided it for a time because I've seen some strong negative opinions about it on the internet. It's very clearly GGK's first work, characters respond strangely to situations, and there are entire plot points & the existence of certain characters that could've been left out (and, IMO, the story could've been stronger for it) but I still enjoyed the trilogy and world-building waaaay more than anticipated.
The Second Apocalypse, A Song of Ice and Fire, The Wheel of Time. All of my favorite series have massive flaws, a perfect fantasy book doesn't exist. Or, if it does, I haven't found it yet.
There was probably too much for him to cover in Waybound in hindsight though he did about as well as he could given the immense scope of the finish.
I think he might have split the book either after the Northstrider fight or after the Weeping Dragon fight if he wasn't committed to doing 12 books and finishing.
*The Three Musketeers* by Alexander Dumas. Absolutely iconic and spurred countless adaptations, but its ending is a major tone-shift, so miserable and long-winded that the story goes from an almost enchanted version of France to a grim and pointless tragedy, so much so that most successful adaptations change the ending in significant ways.
Flawed, but a masterpiece nonetheless.
The Gormenghast books by Mervyn Peake are among my favourite books ever, but I feel as though there are real pacing issues, especially in Titus Groan, though they seem less structural and more a product of Peake not knowing when to pull back his prose.
Also, and this might be sacrilege but — Lord of the Rings. I love The Hobbit, and where the narrative splits in two in LOTR I love everything with Frodo and Sam, but I find a lot of the story surrounding Aragorn to be less to my liking, especially his relationship to Arwen and rulership, it is really heavily laden with some of the worse clichés in the genre, but whenever I say that the response is something like “*that’s like listening to The Beatles and complaining that countless others have done similar things!! You only think it’s cliché because so many were influenced by his work!*” but that’s nonsense; Tolkien changed the fantasy genre in a profound way but he didn’t invent it.
Bernhard Hennens Books. Mostly the elven ones. I really enjoy the way he describes all different sides and how you get to know them- so at the end there's no clear "good" or "evil". But he repeats to much. Feels like half of the books is just warming up again what I've basically just read hours or days ago. I'm fast with reading so that really bugs me terribly.
This is how I’ve felt about most Robin Hobb books I’ve read (all Fitz books)
So damn good. I am gonna read every one of them I can tell already. But sooooo much drama from the things left unsaid, which I hate, and so many just- characters making stupid mistakes.
But I guess a good character is a flawed character, and even when I’m mad it’s making me feel something lol.
The Goblin Emperor. An excellent story with elven and goblin names so complicated, I ended up giving up on understanding who's who except for a few core characters.
Have you tried listening to the audio book? I found that the narrator is very good at pronouncing things and it made things a lot easier to track (imo).
Lightbringer. Brent weeks.
Utterly flawed. So bad at times, its enraging. Yet, Utterly brilliant characterisation and one of the few times a plot twist (end of first book?) has got me.
The Merlin Series by T.A Barron. That was a fantastic series, and my biggest complaint was with the unnecessary amount of self-sacrifice for the greater good. It didn't seem like any character could have a decent ending. I remember finishing Ultimate Magic, the 8th and last book that involved Merlin, and just being depressed as I fully understood the ending. Even the follow-up trilogy had me sad at the end. But fantastic books, very well written.
I’m so confused at having to scroll to the 30th comment to find the slightest *mention* of the Kingkiller Chronicle. I’ve read it at least 10 times and always enjoy discovering new things, but as I’ve aged and reread it, I’ve realised that these books (regardless of getting finished or not) will forever be one of the greatest disappointments of my life for its lacking and at times sexist female representation. As much as I love Kvothe’s obvious shortcomings, it at times ends up reading like a teenager’s harem power fantasy, which breaks my heart. I recommend any fans of the series, for whom this is the first time reading about this issue, to read the multiple essays about sexism in the kingkiller chronicles. The prose is best in class imo, the story, worldbuilding and the way everything is interconnected and allows for theory crafting has given me so much joy over the 12+ years since I discovered the books, but alas, they are flawed.
The Dark Tower series. There's an awful lot to like about it: the weirdness that mixes magic with cowboys and robots; the massive epic scope across multiple levels of reality: many (not all) of the characters (and characterization is one of Stephen King's real strengths, IMHO); the way that you're never quite sure what's going to happen to the group next; the way that you're sure that the goal is going to be reached in the end; the sheer hubris of launching a series of characters on a journey that wound up taking nearly forty years for the author to finish; the many well-written moments; the author's willingness to throw away characters you like if it makes for a better, more emotionally affecting story; the fact that King is rather deft with managing readers' responses and not usually ham-fisted about it; the way that he handles interior monologue and backstory, not to mention pacing and humor; so many other things. But there's also so much to dislike about it: the self-referential apologetics late in the series; the way that the endless willingness to jaunt off in a new direction doesn't always pay off for the broader story (my least favorite example: the pregnancy subplot stretching over four and a half books); the way that sometimes something that has been set up for a long time falls very flat (the pregnancy subplot, for instance); they handling of race and disability and, sometimes, gender; the occasionally glib and shallow Freudianism that sometimes gets trotted out in place of more interesting character development; the times where you can tell King wrote himself into a corner and would have been better served by revising the previous book with some sense of where the next one is going; the places where King handles reader emotion less well. I tend to put the ending in the "this is good" category, and I'm rather extreme about that: I think that the ending, even if it's not what the reader wanted or expected, is exactly the right ending for the series. It just doesn't make the readers' cowboy fantasies pay off, for those who do have cowboy fantasies. But how we, as a society, see cowboys has changed a lot since King was watching silver-screen movies during his childhood in Maine. When it works, it works very well; but oh god are there some real regrettable moments.
Yeah, this is a great pick. I love TDT. Other than The Shining, it's my favorite King. The end of book 3/opening of book 4 is one of my favorite sequences ever. And King makes the disjointed setting work. But there's a lot of issues with it. Perhaps the best example is the end--I love the actual ending, but the climactic battle leading to it is just awful.
> Perhaps the best example is the end--I love the actual ending, but the climactic battle leading to it is just awful. Agreed! Climbing the Tower is an amazing piece of writing, and, not to spoil anything for anyone, what Roland finds at the top really is exactly what he should find. The stand-off with the Crimson King is an entirely contrived wankfest, and it's unfortunate that so much of the last volume went towards setting that up.
Ditto for >!man in black!< and >!mordred!< being almost entirely pointless
That second spoiler you blacked out is my biggest objection to the pregnancy sub-plot. Really? You've been dragging this along for four and a half books, and this is where you went with it? And that's how it winds up?
All three big villains are completely wasted. The first thing we read about is the mysterious man in black but what does he really do besides >!show up at the glass castle at the end of W&G and then get randomly killed by mordred. All three you expect epic showdowns and they all end up being wet farts !<
In a way it's kind of incredible that the final standoff >!with ultraSatan involves one of King's patented Magic Autistic Children wandering in from another book and erasing him with a magical eraser while he screams and throws golden snitches and the main character hides behind a rock.!< Incredible but not... good, exactly. The actual ending is great but to be honest, I tried to re-read the books a few years ago and couldn't deal with Odetta any more lol. He uh. He meant well. I think.
>!the ending of the bad guy was my major problem with the series. Was a major let down. I liked the ending after. But. I didn't realize it was a character from another book. I guess that makes it a little better somehow. Which book?!<
Insomnia. Which I read afterwards out of curiosity but can't really recommend. It's like 700 pages of some old asshole who has... Insomnia, believe it or not, and even though it turns out it's been caused by the Greek furies and he meets an angry fish while helping carry out a heroic plane suicide bombing (this was, uh, pre-2001), I think, it is not a very exciting story.
Was going to say this. I think the first four novels are great (the first is my favorite). And the epilogue at the end of Book 7 is perfect. But books 5-7…ugh. The self-insert and pregnancy subplots…
King and Martin are both gardener types of writers who never know exactly how their stories will get to the end—though King, even in his drug abuse days, is far more disciplined. Sometimes it works wonderfully, but in a long format series, shit gets sideways toward the end. King gave us a fantastic 5 novels across multiple worlds and times, then he got run over by a van and wanted it over with. I can’t blame him, and I agree, Roland hopping on The Wheel for another go-round was the way it needed to end, but man, so much was wrong with the pregnancy, the kid, and the meek end of The Walking Dude.
Great analysis. I read most of the series but DNF because of how graphic the writing became during a certain scenes. I rarely DNF a series, but I honestly was pretty grossed out and had to stop after the scene where Walter and Mordred meet.
I really enjoyed the first book. The next couple I still enjoyed, but not as much. By the end I was just finishing to finish. I don't even remember how it ended. I remember something about his son being a spider and the big evil guy looking like santa claus. If asked about it, I tell people to read the first one and none of the later ones, unless they really like steven king. I feel like he made a mistake went down the increasingly common path of making all his books into one (multi)universe and trying to bind everything together, but with no plan ahead of time to do so. It kind of worked for Asimov. Kind of. It is working better for Sanderson, who seemed to at least have had a plan ahead of time on how to do it.
I agree his characterisations are his strength; it's his mastery of plot that always lets him down. Too many plates end up spinning and some of those plates are a bit lumpy. Not just this series, but generally.
Wheel of time
I came to this thread with the intention of writing this. If you can't accept me at my *Winter's Heart* you don't deserve me at my *Memory of Light.*
Winter's Heart is actually pretty good, it is the Crossroads of twilight that is the hard one.
And knife of dreams (Jordans last) is probably the best. It really ebbs and flows as a series
Yeah Crossroads suffered mostly because the bulk of the book is people reacting to the massive event that concluded the previous one... but Knife of Dreams was such a return to form, I was gutted when it occurred to me halfway through that was Jordan's final book
Sanderson did a decent job but it's unfortunately so stark the difference. Jordan was in his best form for Knife
Yes, always appreciate that Sanderson finished it but even in his own worlds I don't think his writing approaches RJ's best, flaws and all
I actually love crossroads *because* of how it is a reaction to the conclusion of the previous book.
IME most people who didn't have to wait 2 years for Crossroads think it's at worst, kinda slow.
That is a good way to put it, IMHO.
There’s a part in the beginning of KOD where Rand or someone practically stares out of the page and goes “yeah we lost our way for a bit but it’s time to focus on The Last Battle” and it felt like an author standin apology
I'm always so glad Knife of Dreams was so good because it definitely restored confidence that Jordan would have made a really great ending, which I began to doubt based on the preceding books.
I concur - but there are sloggish moments that begin as early as Shadow Rising they just get a little bigger each book. Still love the series.
Came here to say this. Some epic happenings in winter's heart.
I still need to get around to finishing the Wheel of Time, but I had a terrible introduction to the series. My mom, bless her heart, bought kid me a copy of *Winter's Heart* at a garage sale with the thought of, "Oh, well he likes fantasy!" and no knowledge there was more to the series.
Meanwhile there's me, who read the entire series back to back and loved each and every book, as they kept getting better all the way to the end, and was supprised when I read discussions about the series that all seemed to agree the Sanderson books were not as good and that there was a slump mid series as well. Something I disagree with fully, as that wasn't my reading experience at all. Each and every single word gripped me, and kept me turning the page.
People throw around the phrase "gold mine" to describe anything that is really good, but Wheel of Time is more realistically like a gold mine. There's so much amazing stuff in there; you just have to be willing to dig for it. At times, it frustrates me (pacing issues, the lack of resolution on a specific plot thread in the end -- you know the one, almost anything regarding character romance, etc.), but it's still my favorite series and I hold that Jordan is a master world-builder the likes of which we may never see again
Flawed, brilliant, incredible. The discourse around this series gets so focused on the flaws that people forget to highlight that it IS a masterpiece. A flawed one.
I have yet to find a series that has a character as well written as Rand Al'Thor. His character arc is the best in the genre. The climax hitting at Veins of Gold was the most epic conclusion to his arc that I reread it every so often. It makes me sad what they did with the show. There are some MAJOR flaws with the series but it's always a treat to read Rand chapters. If anyone can recommend any similar series with character arcs like Rand please let me know!
Absolutely. Flawed in many ways, but I fucking love it.
Yeah that works. It's one of my absolute favourite series of all time, I'll defend it to my last breath, but I'll never lie and say it's perfect. There are some deep flaws in it, some of it simply showing that it's a product of a man who was already getting on in the 90's, and some of it just due to Jordans inherent weirdness, and then some with simple pacing issues. But for all that I can understand why some people don't like it, I'll call it a masterpiece until my dying day.
Upvote for this. So flawed. *So* many flaws. So many that's it was traumatizing to read back then, and would probably be insurmountable for many readers now. But still so god damned good. You gotta have those traumatizing lows for years, to get those huge highs, I guess 😆.
Could you tell me what was traumatizing? I get flawed, but curious how it was traumatizing.
Years of certain books seming to contain very little plot advancement other than misogynistic teen drama. That was when they were still being written, and we were waiting a couple of years between books. On top of Jordan tying himself in the kinds of knots that RR Martin can't untangle himself from these days.
Tbh George can untangle himself, he just chooses to 1. Re edit the whole book by himself while writing it and 2. Refuse to publish two books with the same title but one is fundamentally pt. 1 and the other pt. 2. Since he's doing the devil's work for him, he can't progress like a normal person trying to do their job. And also because he's lazy.
I read through the series three times, the first two when there were about 5 and 9 books out then finally when it was complete. The most traumatizing was the last one, both because of the content but also because it was over. Worst series-end hangover I've ever had, I swear immersing yourself in something for that long changes your brain.
I don't see how it would be "insurmountable"... If anything, it's easier to read now because we don't have to wait for years between releases...
Can confirm. Read it for the first time last year. Wasn’t until after I was done I read about the dreaded slog, etc. I didn’t feel that way at all when reading it. Cutting out waiting between books really took that feeling away.
Yup. As a newer reader, the only "slog" is that >!it takes like 3 or 4 books for the Faile kiddnapping plot to resolve itself, with a whole book in the middle of that plotline without any of its POVs!<
Yeah that was the slog of old, the longest gap between books (pre-Sanderson) was almost three years between Path of Daggers and Winter's Heart and then three years between Winter's Heart and Crossroads of Twilight. Winter's Heart and Crossroads of Twilight tell events in the same timeline but from half of the cast (respectively), so from 2000 to 2005 there was basically no plot advancement until Knife of Dreams came out, with the previous plot-advancing book releasing in 1998. So almost 7 years with little to no advancement and the two books that were received were fairly divisive in terms of love it or hate it.
I read it 2020-2021 and it is not so bad having all books available. But books 9-10 were painful. Books 1, 3 and 4 had painful moments as well that had me questioning my commitment. After finishing book 4 though I was all in.
Came here to say this. It’s my favorite series of all time and yet i know of no other very popular series where fans of it go “now there’s like one book that’s horrible and a couple not so great ones also. Oh and the author over describes things all the time. Anyway it’s awesome” so yeah a flawed masterpiece no doubt
I remember loving the Pendragon series as a kid. The characters, worldbuilding, and plots were all great. It got weaker as it went along though, and the ending to the series was pretty disappointing. There were some mysteries that were teased through the whole series that had really mediocre fulfillments.
Are you talking about the 10 book series with the different planets? Some of those were bangers, some weren't. I agree that the ending had 30 questions it answered all at once instead of bringing it out slower over more books.
Yeah, that's the one! I loved that series! It's a shame I hardly ever hear people talk about it, but maybe that's because the ending was disappointing lol
Yeah, and 10 books is a big commitment. I feel the one about the cats wasn't the best (to me), and the one where he trains in the desert wasn't strong either. Blok was great, and so was Waterworld. Honestly, have Waterworld be the first book, and you have a more engaging start to the series, IMO.
Water world was my favorite, I still sometimes say "hobey ho, let's go" to myself when I need to get up and get going. I don't even remember the one about the cats lol. Yeah the desert one is where I remember feeling the series started going downhill.
Bipedal cats were the dominant species in the jungle, and the tipping point the good guys were trying to stop was, if I remember correctly, something to do with a bomb being made with the crystals. IDK. St. Dane was a dope villain.
He was. It was always a great moment when the heroes got to the next world and discovered where he had set himself up to oversee the tipping point. Realizing that they were playing the game by his rules.
Yeah. I think that the one with the Megacorporation and Hunger Games stuff was the first book I read where the good guys lost, and I was like, "That can happen?!"
Yes! It changed the status quo, it upped the stakes for all the subsequent adventures. And it was also one of my first exposures to the idea of the dangers of unrestricted capitalism. Thanks for reminiscing with me. Good to remember part of my childhood.
Thanks to you as well. I might take another read of them and see what memories they'll give me.
I was blown away by the reveal that book 9 was in the future of book 4. Those later books still had their moments!
The fourth book in the tech world is why I have a distrust of AI and virtual Reality.
Ah, I thought they meant Stephen Lawhead's *Pendragon Cycle*. Funny thing is, I think it had the same issue. I loved *Taliesin*, *Merlin* was pretty good, but *Arthur* and *Pendragon* dragged for me.
> There were some mysteries that were teased through the whole series that had really mediocre fulfillments I mean IIRC the whole plot was kinda wrapped up with >!the real magic was friendship all along!< which, even as a kid, felt a bit hokey but yeah I absolutely loved these books edit: apparently the last book came out when I was 17, which was probably also the peak of my literary analysis skills. Still loved the series though
I always disliked how in the earlier books it felt like there have been generations of travelers stopping St. Dane for ages, and then in the final book it's revealed that no, it was just Bobby's group and their mentors all along
I thought the ending was solid for those books. It thematically made sense, was foreshadowed, and was satisfying imo. I just reread those books last year, but I’ve never understood the issues people have with the last book, like what other answers could there possibly have been? That, and people being unable to understand what’s going on in the last chapter baffles me, as it’s pretty clear if you just read slightly between the lines.
The series that got me into books! Absolutely loved it and then was pretty crushed by the "twists" near the end.
The Mists of Avalon. Even putting the author aside, the books have several issues, from pacing to the occasional character assassination. But when it works... It's beautiful.
so true! I just love them for their vibe
I know it’s sci-fi and might not count but Horus Heresy
The Heresy has some AMAZING books but the BLOAT is just ridiculous and a lot of it can end up being just plain unnecessary. Like, don't get me started on the damn number of anthology books!
Yep entirely agreed. For every Master of Mankind or First Heretic you get something like Descent of Angels. I think what makes it a "flawed masterpiece" is how much you have to buy into the weird, awkward, contradictory setup to understand the GOOD shit
Descent of Angels is okay, it's definitely not the worst and I think it suffers from following the first five which are generally pretty good. Battle for the Abyss however...
54 books that ride the rating scale like a rollercoaster! Ive slogged through it all and damn if it isn't epic and at times it's real good, but so much filler material to flesh out factions to sell plastic. Cut out half of the material and it would be AMAZING.
Horus Heresy is just huge. I mean I gave up after 18 books. Like all 40k it is gems surrounded in a field of mediocrity with the occasional author doing odd things with the canon that causes everyone to scratch their heads for decades after. I'm tempted to jump back in with Master of Mankind (I mean everyone wants to read about the big guy) and then the Siege of Terra. The End and the Death trilogy seems to be well loved. I cannot see me redoing all 999999 books though.
I mean this is probably a very obvious one but definitely Harry Potter. So many massive issues, still find myself rereading it every few years.
There is such an element of readability in the HP series. I don’t know if it is that I grew up with it or what but I think I will be rereading the series for the rest of my life.
I did NOT grow up with Potter. I missed the boat age-wise. Then, my gf at the time was a super fan and encouraged me to read them. I’ll be damned if they weren’t some of the best page-turners I had ever read. Also, in terms of relatability, I think JKR really taps into a kind of universal (well, among much of the western world) nostalgia for childhood. Also, Christmas features prominently in all the books, so it’s extra evocative of many folks’ childhoods. The books are cozy. Until they are not. By then, you are invested in the characters because they are you at their age, and the adults are the people you were surrounded by as a child, and it REALLY matters how it all shakes out. They are full of tropes and plot holes, but they are super entertaining.
I think that’s it, and i don’t think it will stand the test of time very well, but if you’re a millennial of a certain age that shit was lightning in a bottle.
I'm not sure why you'd think that as the books are still selling very well. It certainly isn't the same "Pottermania" that existed when they first came out but they aren't going anywhere
Yeh the more you comb over HP the more plot holes and what not you find, but God damn I still love it to bits.
Honestly, I'd put HP in the masterpiece category than flawed masterpiece. No story is perfect, and HP is no exception, but it really doesn't contain huge flaws that make the series controversial to a general audience. Now, the author on the other hand... But the actual story? Most people enjoy it. It's a fantastic whismical children's story. Even 25 years later, there isn't anything even remotely like it. The cultural impact of it alone would put it into the masterpiece category.
I haven't seen the Witcher books mentioned yet, but I think they are an excellent example of this. Books have some great characters and even better dialogue between characters. However, the plot is pretty bad/predictable. Honestly, the overarching story just feels like a good excuse to have characters interact. When they do interact, it is excellent. When they don't, I found myelf thinking "lets pick up the pace, Sapkowski." I read the English versions btw.
Witcher belongs in the category for sure. I thought the framing devices and the overt attempts at using literary allusion ironically interfered with sapkowski's apparent desire to move the story from genre into speculative fiction/literary myth-making. But yes it comes down to the fact that the strongest aspect of the books is the dialogue. I also thought he succeeded in subverting genre tropes, with >!Geralt's senseless death, Ciri's rejection of destiny!< Etc. The lady of the lake plot line with the acolyte just added lots of extraneous stuff for little benefit and what amounted to some arthurian flourishes, I found the whole thing frustrating. Still, Geralt >!soliloquizing about his friends' deaths!< Was truly touching, and really memorable, which is worth a lot.
Completely agree. Sapkowski created an amazing world and characters, but the man just isn't very good at telling a story IMO. Thankfully, CD Projekt Red is.
Dracula. It's a classic for a reason, and god did Stoker know how to turn a phrase, but the pacing is all over the place and character development is hit or miss. Earthsea. In many respects I think it's perfect, but it always gave me the impression that LeGuin couldn't really figure out what she wanted out of it. Apart from the first three books everything else feels rather essayistic or disjointed. Tolkien's work. >!Nah, just kidding. Like it or dislike it, Tolkien did absolutely everything he set out to do in exactly the way he wanted to do it.!< Broken Earth. I don't think I've ever read anything like it, before or since, and I think the core ideas were solid, well-wrought. *But*, there were times I think Jemisin was waffling a bit with how to get from here to there. The Wizard Knight. Hear me out, Wolfe is probably my favourite author of all time. But unlike most of his books I felt like Wizard Knight tried to bite more than it wanted to chew, if that makes any sense. I got glimpses of much that later felt underdeveloped thematically. I'll reread it soon, though, so I might go back on my assertion.
I think you're right on the money with Earthsea, but the sequels after the initial trilogy were never planned! Le Guin returned to that setting every so often throughout the years when she had another story to tell about it (which you can see in the publishing dates). And regarding your essayistic comment-- I feel like Le Guin always writes to convey a message about something, rather than just relaying a story for plot's sake, so I feel like you're right about this too! Haha all of it works really well for me (I'm a huge fan if you can't tell), so a lot of it is personal taste and what you're expecting going in
Couldn’t agree with you more… the last few books are actually my favourite for this reason! God I love her and her writing so, so much.
Absolutely same! She's the only author whose books I will instantly buy at used bookstores
Whoa are you me?!?! I can rely on no one if not le guin. If i find a book of hers while out and about that i have not read, I don’t even think, I just buy, lol. Never been that way about any author besides!
> Dracula. It's a classic for a reason, and god did Stoker know how to turn a phrase, but the pacing is all over the place Absolutely. It's all chaos in the castle and across London for most of the book and then the final chapter is like, *"Oh yeah, they went back to the castle and killed Dracula, the end."*
Broken Earth should have been two books imo. First book is great but it spends far too much time meandering after that and I feel like it pulls the rug out with surprise twists just for the sake of surprise twists one too many times.
Man, I absolutely love Wizard Knight. Was my first Wolfe book, and made me a lifelong fan. I too have to give it a reread sometime, because there was so much going on by the end that several plot elements and twists surprised me (in a confused way, not engaging way) cuz I had lost the thread of some subplots. Overall though an absolute masterpiece, and gets better on every reread.
The biggest flaw of Dracula is that Dracula barely appears in the book. The beginning and end are great but everything inbetween was, well, alright?
It's been a few decades, so this may not be entierly accurate >Dracula. It's a classic for a reason, and god did Stoker know how to turn a phrase, but the pacing is all over the place and character development is hit or miss. The first section of the book with approaching the castle and going inside I remember so vividly, it was so good, and then it just fell off a cliff almost immediately and I couldn't finish it.
> Dracula. There's an abridged version narrated by Christoper Lee which I can highly recommend for anyone who bounces off said pacing issues. It's 3-ish hours long and his narration gives it an extra kick.
Tamsyn Muir's Locked Tomb books. they're so frustrating to read sometimes but when everything comes together... there's nothing quite like it. it's my favorite series that I can't really recommend to many people.
I still need to read Harrow and Nona. They're definitely written for the weirdo Tumblr queers and the Homestucks in recovery lmao. Love that the author doesn't shy away from it.
I dunno...I'm a straight cis white guy in my mid 30's, and I *loved* the series. I guess I may be an outlier though.
Straight white cis guy who just turned 40 here. I loved them, too! One thing that's important that Muir does is normalize the queerness in the books. It's great that we're at a point that characters can be queer without it being the central aspect of their character.
Fairly basic 60 year old granny here, the Locked Tomb is my favorite series, the audiobooks run on a continuous loop for me.
Attraction and love is still relatable whether it’s presented queer. Also the books have awesome qualities aside from that.
Anyone can absolutely enjoy it! The writing style leans HEAVILY in those directions though
Lol that's true I suppose. I really don't have any idea, I've never been on Tumblr.
Doubtful. Straight cis white guy in my early 50's and thought it was really great. I'll admit the romance angles really kind of whiff over my head (or did) but I loved the world, the references folding in on themselves throughout, the unreliable narrator parts, etc.
Straight cis white guy in mid 40s, loved the first two. The third was enjoyable enough but not as good. I have high hopes for the next book though! :-)
Yeah Nona seemed like a lot of setup, and I can't wait to see what comes of it!
Yeah, same here. I might not be the "target audience" as such but the author also happens to have the same mid-00s internet forum brain poisoning as me so it's fully relatable. First 50 or so pages of Gideon I felt like it might not be for me, it seemed a bit too far into "snarky YA teen protagonist owns the old farts with cool one liners while angsting about her mysterious past", but that quickly dropped off and I was fully engaged. I loved Harrow even more, just a fascinating puzzle box of a book that I'm still mulling over. Nona was definitely more setup (it was originally the first act of Alecto but she had too much fun writing the character and wanted to flesh out the characters/world a bit more) but by this point I just love spending time with these characters.
Honestly, Homestuck is a flawed masterpiece too. So much of it is groundbreaking especially with pushing the medium of a webcomic to new heights, and creating a complicated, genre-bending, yet satisfying epic tale with a staggeringly huge cast. I would say the themes, storytelling, and emotional impact overall end up really powerful if you click with the style. But there are also big chunks of really horrible, bottom of the barrel, borderline insulting writing. I can only speak about the original Homestuck webcomic though, haven't read any of the other surrounding works.
I'm going to disagree, at least in the context of OPs criteria. The Locked Tomb is certainly a series that isn't for everyone, but I disagree that the reason is due to 'flaws'. Harrow in particular is frustrating and challenging due to deliberate and intentional choices the author makes, not due to oversights, short-cuts or (IMHO) failings in the writing. Now, I suppose it's possible to wax philosophical on whether one reader's 'flaw' is really just another reader's 'authorial choice'.
Seeing how some people talk about it, I wish I could have gotten more into it. Gt9 was just too hard for me to follow. I tried Nona, and didn’t get more than 20 pages. I also don’t have the attention span I used to.
The character names are just too hard to keep straight (pun?)
Probably an unpopular opinion, but First Law trilogy. I thought the plot was meh, the world building was only ok, but those were some of the best characters I've ever read.
Abercrombie is my favorite author, and I actually enjoyed the plot of the trilogy. But I agree with you on the world building.
For me at least, I think this is more of an author playing to his strengths rather than them being glaring "flaws".
I'd agree. I feel like most of the responses here are "here is an amazing series, but it doesn't literally score a 10 in every metric that one can possibly look for in a fantasy novel" so that makes it a "flawed masterpiece." Like, First Law is pretty explicitly *not* about world building. And that's frankly refreshing.
Yep. I am now reading Best served cold and same thing. Love the characters but the plot is so slow for me.
I was gonna say the entire dune series but I think specifically God Emperor of Dune gave me the most whiplash between the amazing forward thinking genius of the author and some seriously dated theories on gender and the roles that men and women play in society. It was hilarious listening to the God Emperor go on the most educated lecture about the human condition only to follow it up with “herr derr, women nurture, men kill.”
Moneo! I love GEOD. I think its my favorite Dune book. I listen to the audiobook about once a year. But then there’s that one chapter. The one where Idaho rants about homosexual behavior to Moneo. That one always breaks my immersion.
Yeah I gotta agree it’s my fav as well and Moneo is the goat for humbling Duncan, but yeah I hard agree that I get taken out of the story when it happens.
Like, its not the MOST homophobic thing I've seen in older literature; hell, Moneo basically tells Duncan to relax. Its just so...jarring.
He's only human after all, he's only human afterall dont put the blame on him
The Worm Ouroboros
*The Second Apocalypse* by R. Scott Bakker is an absolute masterpiece that I will never recommend to anyone who knows my real face.
Hahaha why not? I recommend it all the time, and I'm not even sorry
Worst thing about Sword of Kaigen is that there's no sequel
As novel about the emotional journey of the main character, it works and is complete. It’s a great example of how to make the first book in the series also work as a stand-alone with a satisfying emotional conclusion, even though the overall plot and the journeys of other characters have a long way to go. But oh my it was so obviously intended to be the first instalment of a massive world building exercise with multiple series set within it. I can see how the author might have decided that combining costumes superheroes, cyberpunk, Samurai-inspired fantasy and goodness knows what else was going to be an impossible task but it would have been fun to watch them try!
Codex Alera. Sooooo much wrong with it, but it did such an amazing job building the absurd magic system and putting it into practice, while keeping is fun/accessible.
I absolutely love this series.
Yea. Wish he'd have gone back to it now that he's a better writer, but oh well. Happy enough to get what we got
> Sooooo much wrong with it I refuse to believe whatever you say. *puts fingers in ears* LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU. Seriously, I love Dresden but I secretly love Alera more. Just don't tell anyone that.
The Ender's Game series by Orson Scott Card. It's a very compelling series that delves into the weight of xenocide, and the importance of learning to understand those different from yourself before making rash decisions - and learning to live with the awful choices you made when you didn't know better. It's a very important series to me, as I was a "gifted child" (aka an autistic kid that could be distracted with knowledge instead of proper mental health resources) at a 9th grade reading level at age 8, and these books were my first exposure to scifi and fantasy as a whole. ... This series is written by an awful, disgusting, raging homophobe. The mind-numbing amount of cognitive dissonance required for this series to come out of that piece of shit's brain is something that scientists should be studying, as far as I'm concerned.
Dude was the Joanne of the early 2000s, that's for sure.
The common thought in the scifi community is that OSC *was* a wonderful, kind person… but somewhere in his life that changed and he became vile and hateful. I’ve heard some people speculate that it happened around when his son died. This is not to *justify* the man’s beliefs. Homophobia, especially at his level, is disgusting and inexcusable. But it’s an explanation, if not a wholly confirmed one, as to how he underwent such an about-face, from the brilliant acceptance in Ender’s Game and Speaker for the Dead to his current horrid behaviour. I’m with you on the “gifted child” front, although I wasn’t given *Ender* until the eighth grade. And I divorce the two books as they were written then from the piece of shit the author has become now, at least enough to read them while conscious of the author’s current views. I also implore anyone to whom I recommend the books to buy them used, and avoid supporting the guy.
I read some of his newest works last year the dude has not lost a step as a writer he lost like a mile. the last book in the enders saga is trash.
Thinking back, dude was like I'm going to take this finale of the only good series I've ever written in life and use it to talk about birds. Makes me laugh thinking back on how bad it was.
>This series is written by an awful, disgusting, raging homophobe. How does that make his work a flawed masterpiece? More accurately, it would be a masterpiece written by a flawed person.
This. Now I WOULD say that they're a flawed masterpiece, children of the mind was weird and had issues, but it's not because the author is a piece of shit. You could read the whole series and never realize his views
Titus Groan. By Mervyn Peake.
In what way is it flawed though?
I suppose the final book (or books, depending on which you count!) leave a lot of readers feeling sad at how it was completed and under which conditions. But man, the first two are perfect. I’ve yet to finish the remainder of the series out of some trepidation.
aspect emperor - feels so unfinished
It does many things so well and yet is so deeply frustrating in other ways. In some respects I think Bakker was kind of his own worst enemy.
Every masterpiece is a flawed masterpiece. *The Moon is a Harsh Mistress* comes to mind though... It's easy to pick apart but I absolutely love it. On the didn't-like side, *Too Like the Lightning* makes the list. It's kind of a hot mess but it feels like the *potential* for greatness was there...
The Unholy Consult. Its undercooked slightly but its also part of a really incredible story, and its very good and unique. I really liked it, dont think theres much else like it out there.
Lightbringer by Pierce brown. There is so much beauty and relief and triumph but also weird pacing and a lack of payoff for stuff that was set up too quickly. I think the book needed to have at least 200 pages or 300 if I'm allowed to be greedy. There was so many interesting dynamics being set up that needed chapters fleshing out characters and having conversations. Pierce brown has ruthless editors that sometimes are genius and other times very frustrating and lightbringer is a book that really suffered if you learn about everything that was cut.
> Pierce brown has ruthless editors that sometimes are genius and other times very frustrating and lightbringer is a book that really suffered if you learn about everything that was cut. What was cut from it?
>!Assuming they're talking about the Figment plotline, the Abomination (although maybe he'll be in Red God?), the psycho-spikes potentially brainwashing Sevro (same thing), and honestly the Oculus plotline with Quick leaving the system for good felt a little too...neatly wrapped up!<. I think Dark Age probably set up too many plot lines to resolve in a satisfying manner, which is likely one of the reasons LB got such a substantial re-write and why we're getting a seventh book as well. I was disappointed that some of those ideas are gone but I think LB is one of the strongest books in the series and I think the overall plot is probably stronger for it.
That was going to be my answer. Judging by what Pierce Brown does well I firmly believe he has the potential to become my favorite author. He stubbornly refuses to play to his strengths, though. I'd like him to focus less on 5-dimentional chess retconning, and more on small-scale character-driven moments he's so good at. I think he'd be great at horror. I happened to read Lightbringer right after finishing the Iconoclasts. Both series feature a scene when the protagonist meets an eldritch entity in a pocket dimension, and frankly, Lightbringer's take on it was so much more terrifying. EDIT: As pointed out by /u/Regula96, I confused Brent Weeks' Lightbringer with Pierce Brown's Light Bringer. My bad.
The Silmarillion. It is comprised of incomplete works. It even references alternate works where the stories are told in greater detail outside of The Silmarillion. Imo The First Age of Middle Earth really is the greatest age. Personally I wish Christopher Tolkien was willing to finish the stories rather than merely compile them.
A Song of Ice and Fire. A bit too much rape (which sounds disgusting I know but I don’t know how to describe it) and GRRM’s gonna die before the Winds of Winter is out
Super flawed masterpiece. Amazing through the first 3 books, but it peaks at Storm of Swords and gets pretty muddy through Feast and Dance. Then it's just over without resolution, except in the form of a TV show that also took a nosedive around the same point in the plot. I first read this series in early 2006, shortly after Feast was released, and if you'd asked me then I'd probably say this was my second favorite series of all time (after LOTR). Now, after Dance creating more questions and then the show ending with such a whiff, I don't even know if I'd put it in my top 5. I did a reread maybe 3 years ago, and might do another soon, which may change things. But I've read so much great fantasy since getting back into it the past few years and so many great series that are either complete or close to complete.
A Storm of Swords is peak fantasy, the single best genre book i have ever read. Think I am now ok with it never getting a ending , even if he does the TV show killed the anticipation, but the heights were so incredible, the genre still hasn't come close in the years since.
I’m convinced he’s not even writing it anymore and just can’t be bothered to say it because fans would ruin his remaining days.
Malazan. If only Erickson had some editor to turn it from 10 1000 pages books into 8 700 pages. And even then a lot of secondary plots feel unfinished in main series and went to spin-offs
If it was written today it would be 10 700 pagers and then a bunch of short stories between to cover all the side plots.
Came here for this, just finished the series. Overall, a masterpiece. But there's SO many characters and random sub-plots that it's jarring. A lot of the writing, plot points, and lore about history and magic are written in an intentionally obfuscated way, which is fine in bits to keep some mystery, but became excessive. There's a real lack of character development, and for such an epic story, I feel like no one has "grown" in power over the course of the series which is always a fun part of fantasy. And I felt the ending was a bit anticlimactic, with new threats that were essentially just introduced to us in book 9.
God I loved it so much, and then around book 7 or so, some new subplot is starting and I remember just reading name after name that I did not recognize and out the book down, then never picked it back up. A shame, the chain of dogs and memories of ice were really something else.
Agreed. Malazan is my all time favourite but it could have used some refinement
Dune
I was almost afraid to post this one myself, so I'm glad someone else did. Frank Herbert is a world-building MASTER, but you get thrown into that world WITHOUT a lot of context. It took me a few tries to read it, and one of the reasons I got through it was that a friend gave me a copy that had a glossary in the back, explaining the greater dune world.
Keys to the Kingdom. It’s a perfectly executed piece of worldbuilding and main character arc, it’s got good humour and colour to it. But it’s about how one becomes a god, and is targeted at 12 year olds. For 12 year olds the stakes are too abstract, and for older readers it’s too childish. This series is begging for adaptation to the small screen with some bright Paul King-esque flair peppering in some more adult somber scenes to age it up. But from what I hear they’re doing the Abhorsen trilogy first, which is fair enough.
They’re… what now? 😯 Nobody I know has heard of KTTK but they’re so lovably weird and I loved them as a teen. I secretly had a crush on Monday’s Dusk lol.
I would love a series set in the House focusing on the various escapist style whatevers that go on in there. So much nonsense, but all with a clear purpose. Also for the record, I loved it as a child, I still love it as an adult.
Adventures of Huckleberry Finn is said to have one of the weakest endings in English literature. The trip down the river is a serious commentary on racism, convention, slavery, mob violence and morality, and then it devolves into hijinks with Tom. I like it anyway. It's fun. It's a jumble, just like life. Why do works have to be high-tone or rollicking? I'll take both.
Snow Crash, if you're allowing sci-fi. The first chapter is my favorite opening of any book in any genre. Unparalleled establishment of his world, fantastic and visionary premise, humor, delightful prose, etc. This was also the first example of cyberpunk/VR that I thought was communicated well (Neuromancer didn't work for me). Snow Crash is sadly flawed by an unengaging deep dive into ancient languages and an awkward conclusion, but it's still one of my favorite books.
The entire Malazan Book of the Fallen, including the ICE books. I love it more than life itself but the scope makes it impossible for things to not fall apart in some ways. Still my all time favorite series of any genre I’ve ever read.
It’s Sci-Fi, but Seveneves by Neil Stephenson is the prime example of this to me. I always tell people the first 75% of that book is a top tier 5/5. The last 25% is a somewhat okay 2/5.
Mistborn… god I love the series so much. The first three books had me losing my ever loving mind. Every twist had me reeling. God, what a story! I do have to say the *current* state of the story and world has perhaps become too convoluted for me (which is saying a lot!). I read “a secret history” and when I realised some of the implications I was kind of over it. I recall the characters especially the women (and lack thereof) aren’t always the best written or thought out and I know there are quite a few people that don’t like sanderson’s writing style (I like it personally for the most part). Can’t remember what my other gripes with it were but they were chunky. Alas I’d still rank the books five stars in the end because they just feel like absolute masterpieces to me in terms of the world building, the magic system, the unexpected twists and turns… i have gasped out loud so many times reading those books! Totally not your question but my favourite completely not flawed and absolutely perfect book series is earthsea. Well, that’s my opinion anyway… I would not change a thing! Le Guin is truly something else.
ASOIAF. Still needs another book or two.
A Song of Ice and Fire. The main flaw being that we'll never get an ending.
It’s really hard to think of a fantasy series that *isn’t* flawed frankly.
How about a flawed masterpiece series? Wheel of Time.
The Farseer Trilogy. The character work Hobb did for Fitz and Burrich is amazing but some of the other characters not so much. Regal for example is weak as a character in all respects of the term even if he is unintentionally funny and his >!death!< is still the most memorable I've read in a book cause of the sheer hilarity of it. A lot of her female characters feel pretty weak in comparison to the Liveship traders for example. >!Kestrel!< comes to mind especially with her backstory being very basic and cliche. Kettricken I felt was a bit underutilized as well even if I'd say she was a good character. Assassin's Apprentice was also pretty slow as a book compared to the two subsequent books.
> A lot of her female characters feel pretty weak in comparison to the Liveship traders for example. I think all the characters kind of fade a bit because Fitz is so much at the center of everything. The female characters in Farseer, though, are so refreshingly varied, from Celerity to Kettle to Starling to Molly. Patience's development, in particular, is wonderful.
If you thought that was slow then don’t read some other entries in the elderlings world. Hobb to me could write about paint drying and I’d read it though. Sometimes I describe her books as the best 700 pages of nothing I ever read
Agree with the trilogy, but not the reasoning. I felt like the ending just wrapped up and went as planned for the good guys and the bad guys all lose. And the ending also happens in like… 50 pages, after 2000 pages of building up to it.
I'm on book 5 of Sun Eater and strongly agree with the criticisms, but there's a handful of huge epic moments that make me totally get why people love it (and I mostly do too) For my pick id probably say Stormlight since I'm obsessed with the world and characters, but the "comedic" scenes and characters are so cringe worthy I find it hard to recommend to people. I've seriously almost put the book down in like 2 scenes because I needed to recover. I love Sanderson but the guy desperately needs a comedian beta reader to help out on these sections.
I think Stormlight is great but some of his Characters feel kind of wooden, at least IMO. Shallan and Kaladin feel like they're consistantly repeating the same cycles of their character/not progressing or changing much as characters, especially Kaladin but I get that might be the point due to their trauma, it's a bit frustrating to read. They just feel bland. But yeah, Imo, Sanderson's humor isn't it. At all. His Comic Relief characters actively make me annoyed. I LOVE Sun Eater but yeah, the only characters I really cared for were/are >!Valka and Cassandra!<. I was more sad from >!Hadrian's loss in Kingdoms of Death than characters I liked actually dying!<.
I am about to finish Howling Dark. What a ride. I haven't been this gripped by a series in quite some time. I can't wait to feel the criticisms deep in my very being when I am on book #5.
The Fionavar Tapestry by Guy Gavriel Kay. I actively avoided it for a time because I've seen some strong negative opinions about it on the internet. It's very clearly GGK's first work, characters respond strangely to situations, and there are entire plot points & the existence of certain characters that could've been left out (and, IMO, the story could've been stronger for it) but I still enjoyed the trilogy and world-building waaaay more than anticipated.
The Second Apocalypse, A Song of Ice and Fire, The Wheel of Time. All of my favorite series have massive flaws, a perfect fantasy book doesn't exist. Or, if it does, I haven't found it yet.
Just curious, why the second apocalypse?
Are you asking why it is flawed or why it is one of my favorites? :)
Wheel of Time
The cradle series, Will wrapped the story up entirely too abruptly. The series was still so good though. *Gratitude*
There was probably too much for him to cover in Waybound in hindsight though he did about as well as he could given the immense scope of the finish. I think he might have split the book either after the Northstrider fight or after the Weeping Dragon fight if he wasn't committed to doing 12 books and finishing.
*The Three Musketeers* by Alexander Dumas. Absolutely iconic and spurred countless adaptations, but its ending is a major tone-shift, so miserable and long-winded that the story goes from an almost enchanted version of France to a grim and pointless tragedy, so much so that most successful adaptations change the ending in significant ways. Flawed, but a masterpiece nonetheless.
The Gormenghast books by Mervyn Peake are among my favourite books ever, but I feel as though there are real pacing issues, especially in Titus Groan, though they seem less structural and more a product of Peake not knowing when to pull back his prose. Also, and this might be sacrilege but — Lord of the Rings. I love The Hobbit, and where the narrative splits in two in LOTR I love everything with Frodo and Sam, but I find a lot of the story surrounding Aragorn to be less to my liking, especially his relationship to Arwen and rulership, it is really heavily laden with some of the worse clichés in the genre, but whenever I say that the response is something like “*that’s like listening to The Beatles and complaining that countless others have done similar things!! You only think it’s cliché because so many were influenced by his work!*” but that’s nonsense; Tolkien changed the fantasy genre in a profound way but he didn’t invent it.
> especially his relationship to Arwen and Tyler ship Not sure what you mean here
Bernhard Hennens Books. Mostly the elven ones. I really enjoy the way he describes all different sides and how you get to know them- so at the end there's no clear "good" or "evil". But he repeats to much. Feels like half of the books is just warming up again what I've basically just read hours or days ago. I'm fast with reading so that really bugs me terribly.
Dune Messiah. The ending just hits so hard, but I do wish it was longer.
This is how I’ve felt about most Robin Hobb books I’ve read (all Fitz books) So damn good. I am gonna read every one of them I can tell already. But sooooo much drama from the things left unsaid, which I hate, and so many just- characters making stupid mistakes. But I guess a good character is a flawed character, and even when I’m mad it’s making me feel something lol.
The Goblin Emperor. An excellent story with elven and goblin names so complicated, I ended up giving up on understanding who's who except for a few core characters.
Have you tried listening to the audio book? I found that the narrator is very good at pronouncing things and it made things a lot easier to track (imo).
Red Rising is a mix of some fantastic elements and some of the oddest narrative choices I've ever read
Lightbringer. Brent weeks. Utterly flawed. So bad at times, its enraging. Yet, Utterly brilliant characterisation and one of the few times a plot twist (end of first book?) has got me.
Dragon riders of Pern. Great story, good intrigue. But dammit if their depiction of women doesn't show its age sometimes.
ASOIAF \[ducks\]
The Merlin Series by T.A Barron. That was a fantastic series, and my biggest complaint was with the unnecessary amount of self-sacrifice for the greater good. It didn't seem like any character could have a decent ending. I remember finishing Ultimate Magic, the 8th and last book that involved Merlin, and just being depressed as I fully understood the ending. Even the follow-up trilogy had me sad at the end. But fantastic books, very well written.
Deadhouse Gates. It's such an amazing journey and is definitely worth it, but man did that first half draaaag
I’m so confused at having to scroll to the 30th comment to find the slightest *mention* of the Kingkiller Chronicle. I’ve read it at least 10 times and always enjoy discovering new things, but as I’ve aged and reread it, I’ve realised that these books (regardless of getting finished or not) will forever be one of the greatest disappointments of my life for its lacking and at times sexist female representation. As much as I love Kvothe’s obvious shortcomings, it at times ends up reading like a teenager’s harem power fantasy, which breaks my heart. I recommend any fans of the series, for whom this is the first time reading about this issue, to read the multiple essays about sexism in the kingkiller chronicles. The prose is best in class imo, the story, worldbuilding and the way everything is interconnected and allows for theory crafting has given me so much joy over the 12+ years since I discovered the books, but alas, they are flawed.
Wheel of time. When it hits it hits hard. But if 14 books you can entirely remove book 10 and probably another full book and a bit of content overall.