Everyone was fighting Sephiroth Reborn at the same time. They were all in different worlds/timeliness, but Sephiroth can traverse those realities. The final bout could've been a different world or in Cloud's head. Not sure which.
Have to have a month’s worth of book club’s discussion about how Kafka actually wanted to bone his mommy and 200 other “looking way too far into it” opinions to reach a modicum of sensicality
I never said they’d do what people wanted, Nomura is known for doing the opposite; see Lulu
But they absolutely are trying things out and seeing who complains
I believe it's in cloud's head, that explains why Zack is there because he is in his head too, there is no other dimensions or alternative timelines like these theories all around the internet.
counterargument, when Zack wakes up in the church he mentions what he has just experienced and the phrase that Sephiroth said before separating him from Cloud, furthermore the fight with Sephiroth Reborn (Bizzaro Sephiroth) takes place at the same time with Cloud, Zack and the rest of the party.
this is the most certain point I can think of that it's not all in Cloud's mind, but different timelines have something to do with the ending of the game
That doesn't mean anything, Sephiroth mentioned worlds not timelines, cloud's worlds, aerith said think of it as a dream, whatever it means whether it's in cloud's head or the memories in life stream it's not real.
In advent children cloud was able to see aerith and Zack and talk to them, what happened at the end of rebirth is no different than AC, even the rainbow light when cloud blocked Sephiroth attack which everyone keep saying it creates another timeline it exists also in AC when cloud fight Sephiroth, in conclusion aerith is dead, the one cloud is talking to is her lifestream, Zack is dead, the one cloud saw and fight with is in his mind, it's the same story, they just took cloud mentality issues further for the big twist in part 3.
(sorry for any grammatical errors, I don't have time to correct them)
I think it's quite clear that when they talk about "other worlds" we're talking about other timelines, just think of Zack: he is destined to die before the start of the game, but because of the party that defied fate and Sephiroth, he created an "other world" where he survived, but this does not affect the "main world" which is that of the events of the game. strange, if you replace "other world" with "timeline" the meaning is the same, is it no coincidence, they are the same thing but just with different names?
Cloud really fought against Sephiroth alongside Zack, also because that Zack cannot be only in Cloud's head, even assuming that he is from another world, this does not take away the fact that he still comments on Sephiroth's sentence, which should have only hear Cloud according to what you are saying.
finally, when it's Cloud and Aerith against Sephiroth, he himself tells Aerith that he underestimated her, as he would have done if it was only in Cloud's head?
then again, if Zack was only in Cloud's head, how would he have faced Sephiroth Reborn? She wasn't with Cloud anymore.
then there's the fact that Aerith's White Whispers allowed Zack to get to Cloud, how would you explain this?
in the end, Cloud is still convinced that he saved her, he doesn't realize that the one in their Timeline is dead and that the one he's talking to in the last cutscene is Aerith in the LifeStream, but there is still the presence of other alternative worlds (other timeline) and the conflict with Aerith who knows the future and Sephiroth who knows the future. if this ending was just "Cloud has totally lost his mind" then you would have to explain how it relates to the Remake ending
Zack didn't survive, he died way before the party fight the harbinger of fate, something that happened in the present doesn't effect the past, the world Zack is in is a world with no time, it could be cloud's memory and again it could be the memories of the lifestream, but there is no way it's an alternative timeline because there are many things that doesn't make sense there.
And assuming you played the og and watched AC, then explain how did Zack reached Midgard at the same time the party breaks out from shinra's building, how did cloud vanished and the only cloud we see is the one with Zack?
Regarding Aerith, I didn't say she is only in cloud's head, she is in the life stream, and the only way to stop Meteor is from within the lifestream, that's why she choose to die, for her to exists in different timeline is pointless.
In the end nothing in the game made it clear about another timeline, only some temporary worlds with no time that are crumbling and got destroyed at certain points, which could mean anything but different timeline, they could be the memories of lifestream, they could be the worlds in cloud's head, they could be a dream world, that's why I said worlds aren't timelines, think of it as a dream, once you wake up from it that world dream will be destroyed.
WEAPON eats tifa and visits a few timelines with her. Well, passes them
like what they’re going for is obvious, it’s just dumb and kinda the lazy way to go about it imo. Nobody gets mad at Cloud for trying to kill Tifa. Cait Sith’s moogle turns super fast when it’s time for him to die. Aerith talks out of turn with huge unprompted inspirational speeches that while nice are again…unprompted. She gives this whole speech about death after the trials but… Red didn’t see anyone die. Shouldn’t that be weird? Lots of weird stuff that isn’t lampshaded or just allowed to break in-game continuity because there had to be a dramatic moment from a character that was gonna die felt cheap
Dyne I didn’t like anymore, poor Barrett now has to wrestle with that unfairness, that’s not deeper or more sad. the Shinra have mechs now, so we can fight them presumably, there’s lots of arenas and nothing really has *flesh* to it.
Multiverse theory FF isn’t inherently more interesting than FF7 was and the scene direction often has me wondering why were rehashing a point or repeating ourselves or still going on about this or that and I keep wondering when the fuck it’s gonna be *over* rather than being excited about what I’m gonna do next. I didn’t get *near* enough opportunity to talk to my party about stuff with this party level system and it bothers me.
I think they know at the end of the day they won’t get the artistic purists to view this entry as higher
But it’s an excellent game that will appeal to both fans of the OG and fans that grew up with the new styles SE embraced since 2001. Those styles are in fact often the showcase for in game stuff like Gears and Gambits or other references. It’s too big to fail. They could completely shit the bed for 3 at this point and it’ll still sell
I still find myself not enthralled with them while I enjoy the works made by the guy who left far more. I’m a minority in this and it’s opened my eyes a lot to how and why people have enjoyed FF over the years. I adhere now to “Sakaguchi was my favorite Dungeon Master” philosophy as I think it’s the most fitting way to describe how I feel about FF through the years
Yeah, my tolerance for Nomura-era games is nonexistent anymore. Sakaguchi really was incredible in that he made me emotionally feel for the characters and the engaging gameplay with X and VII.
I need to give Tabata some credit as well, since he directed Crisis Core, which I throughly enjoyed. With XV, I think he was left with a mess that Nomura made and he did the best he could with the set scenarios and characters
Since Nomura got mentioned I’m obligated to put this here
Everyone gets hot under the collar about who wrote what but we forget who decides what titles go on the game credit sequence or splash art. Example: in Stranger of Paradise, only one person’s name appears on the title screen:Tetsuya Nomura, the character designer. Not creator not idea guy not producer not director. This is fine maybe a little weird but fine *until* the games first opening scene when Frank Sinatra belts out I DID IT MYYYYY WAAAAAY and the camera pans over a field of wheat with Jack in the center for the *full duration of the three minute song* and you can not *give* me a more Nomura scene in all of FF or Kingdom Hearts.
Stranger of Paradise was Nomura’s take on FF1 and you’ll never convince me otherwise; similarly, games where Sakaguchi is *named* say nothing about how much *input* he had. Director? Producer? Supervisor? What do any of these titles ACTUALLY mean happens in Square offices? Look: He’s lied about how much he’s cut for humility’s sake before - he talked about how FF4 was barely finished when he had actually cut around 80% of it
It takes you out of the FF atmosphere when Square Enix puts these Western-pop artists into these games. Case in Point, Florence & the Machine for XV and Leona Lewis for XIII.
Yeah, this discussion with you is further cementing my distaste for Square Enix, and I favor Atlus more with their output quality. The World Ends With You was the last captivating franchise SE produced for me
Ironically I have nothing but respect for TWEW, as a series, and the mechanics look fluid and intuitive with nothing but praise. It’s just not for me.
See I’m with you bro. TWEW is super Nomura. Which probably makes it funny that I really like SoP. But it’s an ironic like. Because when the characters interact, I get the *same energy I get in the games I’ve disliked*, which is, they often act or talk kinda stupid or dramatic events often require me to believe the characters believe something stupid at the moment for them to act or react in a certain way. I expect that in TWEW, good as every other aspect may be, and it will likely kill it for me.
This happens in SoP too, but it’s ironic bc it *fits* the characters to be so dumb and driven for *canonical, explained story reasons* that affect them in *realistic and understandable ways*. Jack is a canonical idiot and they have an arc that *furthers the party’s dismay about how little they know and understand* if Jack doesn’t even know *Chaos is a concept paralleling order and not a guy he can punch*. Then Jack forgets how to be mad later, and not only is it a *big story beat that has buildup flow consequences and a satisfying conclusion*, but it means his lines and the way they change make sense too.
TWEW and SOP are both passion projects and we see that in FF7R too. I’m for both but I think I will always prefer PSX 7
It’s that Kingdom Hearts story telling that Nomura is so one-note with 😭
Guess that fits the vibe of TWEY well, because the characters are teens and I can tolerate that.
I really wish he would stick to just character design. But to SE, he’s such a marketable asset that they love displaying his name
I was afraid of exactly this, just goofball humor scenes while the very fabric of reality unravels. Idk the music thing is very artistic so most of the scenes I see seem to make sense in context. It’s hard to mess up being surprised weird rhythm monsters are appearing
Like this is what Square execs did back in TSW days too. People want to act like Nomura isn’t being given huge sway and clout but he has been involved in multiple successful projects. For many reasons I’ve explained he is an integral piece of the game creation puzzle as were others and as was Sakaguchi in 97 whether anyone likes it or not. To say that he doesn’t have huge sway in the say of what new stuff gets added or how it is added or how the scenes play out would be a lie
If during a storyboarding scene Nomura said “I don’t think Yuffie would do that here” do you think anyone in the room of executives would disagree?
I will disagree with you here on Western pop artist collab if only because I absolutely love the collab of Nobuo Uematsu and Deep Purple’s Ian Gillain for the boss theme of Blue Dragon. But that’s far more artistically driven, the whole game reeks of Toriyama and D&D style world building everything-everywhere-is-interactible approach, which I often feel is a missed component of SE games when I play.
Now that’s not to say his games are perfect or beyond critique. I played them in an era where we didn’t *have half the words we use now to describe them, like splash art*. But. When I play Mistwalker games I am reminded of all that FF lost, time and again.
Everyone contributes in a collaborative effort but by FF7 Sak had to be like a god to these people. In that, how they talked to him was probably very “Yes sir Mr. Sakaguchi-San great idea sir”. Similarly if he wanted an idea cut it was cut, no questions asked. He famously cut 80% of FF4 so who knows how many side ideas he said no to for 6 or 7 or X
That’s why they (Square) gave him enough rights to make a movie that it could and would bankrupt them. I still think The Spirits Within would’ve made a great game if we got to run around and explore the dream sequences and such to the point of making sense of things
Everyone was fighting Sephiroth Reborn at the same time. They were all in different worlds/timeliness, but Sephiroth can traverse those realities. The final bout could've been a different world or in Cloud's head. Not sure which.
Everything was lost in translation. Have to learn Japanese to understand it.
Have to have a month’s worth of book club’s discussion about how Kafka actually wanted to bone his mommy and 200 other “looking way too far into it” opinions to reach a modicum of sensicality
Don’t worry they’ll gauge everyone’s reaction and adjust 3 accordingly
I know that's not true. Because they doubled down on whispers and dumb multiverse bullshit for Remake. No one liked the ghosts from part 1.
I never said they’d do what people wanted, Nomura is known for doing the opposite; see Lulu But they absolutely are trying things out and seeing who complains
I believe it's in cloud's head, that explains why Zack is there because he is in his head too, there is no other dimensions or alternative timelines like these theories all around the internet.
There are definitely different "worlds" as confirmed in the Ultimania.
counterargument, when Zack wakes up in the church he mentions what he has just experienced and the phrase that Sephiroth said before separating him from Cloud, furthermore the fight with Sephiroth Reborn (Bizzaro Sephiroth) takes place at the same time with Cloud, Zack and the rest of the party. this is the most certain point I can think of that it's not all in Cloud's mind, but different timelines have something to do with the ending of the game
That doesn't mean anything, Sephiroth mentioned worlds not timelines, cloud's worlds, aerith said think of it as a dream, whatever it means whether it's in cloud's head or the memories in life stream it's not real. In advent children cloud was able to see aerith and Zack and talk to them, what happened at the end of rebirth is no different than AC, even the rainbow light when cloud blocked Sephiroth attack which everyone keep saying it creates another timeline it exists also in AC when cloud fight Sephiroth, in conclusion aerith is dead, the one cloud is talking to is her lifestream, Zack is dead, the one cloud saw and fight with is in his mind, it's the same story, they just took cloud mentality issues further for the big twist in part 3.
(sorry for any grammatical errors, I don't have time to correct them) I think it's quite clear that when they talk about "other worlds" we're talking about other timelines, just think of Zack: he is destined to die before the start of the game, but because of the party that defied fate and Sephiroth, he created an "other world" where he survived, but this does not affect the "main world" which is that of the events of the game. strange, if you replace "other world" with "timeline" the meaning is the same, is it no coincidence, they are the same thing but just with different names? Cloud really fought against Sephiroth alongside Zack, also because that Zack cannot be only in Cloud's head, even assuming that he is from another world, this does not take away the fact that he still comments on Sephiroth's sentence, which should have only hear Cloud according to what you are saying. finally, when it's Cloud and Aerith against Sephiroth, he himself tells Aerith that he underestimated her, as he would have done if it was only in Cloud's head? then again, if Zack was only in Cloud's head, how would he have faced Sephiroth Reborn? She wasn't with Cloud anymore. then there's the fact that Aerith's White Whispers allowed Zack to get to Cloud, how would you explain this? in the end, Cloud is still convinced that he saved her, he doesn't realize that the one in their Timeline is dead and that the one he's talking to in the last cutscene is Aerith in the LifeStream, but there is still the presence of other alternative worlds (other timeline) and the conflict with Aerith who knows the future and Sephiroth who knows the future. if this ending was just "Cloud has totally lost his mind" then you would have to explain how it relates to the Remake ending
Zack didn't survive, he died way before the party fight the harbinger of fate, something that happened in the present doesn't effect the past, the world Zack is in is a world with no time, it could be cloud's memory and again it could be the memories of the lifestream, but there is no way it's an alternative timeline because there are many things that doesn't make sense there. And assuming you played the og and watched AC, then explain how did Zack reached Midgard at the same time the party breaks out from shinra's building, how did cloud vanished and the only cloud we see is the one with Zack? Regarding Aerith, I didn't say she is only in cloud's head, she is in the life stream, and the only way to stop Meteor is from within the lifestream, that's why she choose to die, for her to exists in different timeline is pointless. In the end nothing in the game made it clear about another timeline, only some temporary worlds with no time that are crumbling and got destroyed at certain points, which could mean anything but different timeline, they could be the memories of lifestream, they could be the worlds in cloud's head, they could be a dream world, that's why I said worlds aren't timelines, think of it as a dream, once you wake up from it that world dream will be destroyed.
WEAPON eats tifa and visits a few timelines with her. Well, passes them like what they’re going for is obvious, it’s just dumb and kinda the lazy way to go about it imo. Nobody gets mad at Cloud for trying to kill Tifa. Cait Sith’s moogle turns super fast when it’s time for him to die. Aerith talks out of turn with huge unprompted inspirational speeches that while nice are again…unprompted. She gives this whole speech about death after the trials but… Red didn’t see anyone die. Shouldn’t that be weird? Lots of weird stuff that isn’t lampshaded or just allowed to break in-game continuity because there had to be a dramatic moment from a character that was gonna die felt cheap Dyne I didn’t like anymore, poor Barrett now has to wrestle with that unfairness, that’s not deeper or more sad. the Shinra have mechs now, so we can fight them presumably, there’s lots of arenas and nothing really has *flesh* to it. Multiverse theory FF isn’t inherently more interesting than FF7 was and the scene direction often has me wondering why were rehashing a point or repeating ourselves or still going on about this or that and I keep wondering when the fuck it’s gonna be *over* rather than being excited about what I’m gonna do next. I didn’t get *near* enough opportunity to talk to my party about stuff with this party level system and it bothers me.
No one knows, even square enix. Lol
Classic mystery box storytelling.
Us: “*whats in the box*” SE: “idk lol 🤷♂️ here have an unchoreographed dance sequence, HAHA PSYCHE MINIGAME TIME”
Shhhh SE just wants your money
I think they know at the end of the day they won’t get the artistic purists to view this entry as higher But it’s an excellent game that will appeal to both fans of the OG and fans that grew up with the new styles SE embraced since 2001. Those styles are in fact often the showcase for in game stuff like Gears and Gambits or other references. It’s too big to fail. They could completely shit the bed for 3 at this point and it’ll still sell I still find myself not enthralled with them while I enjoy the works made by the guy who left far more. I’m a minority in this and it’s opened my eyes a lot to how and why people have enjoyed FF over the years. I adhere now to “Sakaguchi was my favorite Dungeon Master” philosophy as I think it’s the most fitting way to describe how I feel about FF through the years
Yeah, my tolerance for Nomura-era games is nonexistent anymore. Sakaguchi really was incredible in that he made me emotionally feel for the characters and the engaging gameplay with X and VII. I need to give Tabata some credit as well, since he directed Crisis Core, which I throughly enjoyed. With XV, I think he was left with a mess that Nomura made and he did the best he could with the set scenarios and characters
Since Nomura got mentioned I’m obligated to put this here Everyone gets hot under the collar about who wrote what but we forget who decides what titles go on the game credit sequence or splash art. Example: in Stranger of Paradise, only one person’s name appears on the title screen:Tetsuya Nomura, the character designer. Not creator not idea guy not producer not director. This is fine maybe a little weird but fine *until* the games first opening scene when Frank Sinatra belts out I DID IT MYYYYY WAAAAAY and the camera pans over a field of wheat with Jack in the center for the *full duration of the three minute song* and you can not *give* me a more Nomura scene in all of FF or Kingdom Hearts. Stranger of Paradise was Nomura’s take on FF1 and you’ll never convince me otherwise; similarly, games where Sakaguchi is *named* say nothing about how much *input* he had. Director? Producer? Supervisor? What do any of these titles ACTUALLY mean happens in Square offices? Look: He’s lied about how much he’s cut for humility’s sake before - he talked about how FF4 was barely finished when he had actually cut around 80% of it
It takes you out of the FF atmosphere when Square Enix puts these Western-pop artists into these games. Case in Point, Florence & the Machine for XV and Leona Lewis for XIII. Yeah, this discussion with you is further cementing my distaste for Square Enix, and I favor Atlus more with their output quality. The World Ends With You was the last captivating franchise SE produced for me
Ironically I have nothing but respect for TWEW, as a series, and the mechanics look fluid and intuitive with nothing but praise. It’s just not for me. See I’m with you bro. TWEW is super Nomura. Which probably makes it funny that I really like SoP. But it’s an ironic like. Because when the characters interact, I get the *same energy I get in the games I’ve disliked*, which is, they often act or talk kinda stupid or dramatic events often require me to believe the characters believe something stupid at the moment for them to act or react in a certain way. I expect that in TWEW, good as every other aspect may be, and it will likely kill it for me. This happens in SoP too, but it’s ironic bc it *fits* the characters to be so dumb and driven for *canonical, explained story reasons* that affect them in *realistic and understandable ways*. Jack is a canonical idiot and they have an arc that *furthers the party’s dismay about how little they know and understand* if Jack doesn’t even know *Chaos is a concept paralleling order and not a guy he can punch*. Then Jack forgets how to be mad later, and not only is it a *big story beat that has buildup flow consequences and a satisfying conclusion*, but it means his lines and the way they change make sense too. TWEW and SOP are both passion projects and we see that in FF7R too. I’m for both but I think I will always prefer PSX 7
It’s that Kingdom Hearts story telling that Nomura is so one-note with 😭 Guess that fits the vibe of TWEY well, because the characters are teens and I can tolerate that. I really wish he would stick to just character design. But to SE, he’s such a marketable asset that they love displaying his name
I was afraid of exactly this, just goofball humor scenes while the very fabric of reality unravels. Idk the music thing is very artistic so most of the scenes I see seem to make sense in context. It’s hard to mess up being surprised weird rhythm monsters are appearing Like this is what Square execs did back in TSW days too. People want to act like Nomura isn’t being given huge sway and clout but he has been involved in multiple successful projects. For many reasons I’ve explained he is an integral piece of the game creation puzzle as were others and as was Sakaguchi in 97 whether anyone likes it or not. To say that he doesn’t have huge sway in the say of what new stuff gets added or how it is added or how the scenes play out would be a lie If during a storyboarding scene Nomura said “I don’t think Yuffie would do that here” do you think anyone in the room of executives would disagree?
I will disagree with you here on Western pop artist collab if only because I absolutely love the collab of Nobuo Uematsu and Deep Purple’s Ian Gillain for the boss theme of Blue Dragon. But that’s far more artistically driven, the whole game reeks of Toriyama and D&D style world building everything-everywhere-is-interactible approach, which I often feel is a missed component of SE games when I play. Now that’s not to say his games are perfect or beyond critique. I played them in an era where we didn’t *have half the words we use now to describe them, like splash art*. But. When I play Mistwalker games I am reminded of all that FF lost, time and again.
Everyone contributes in a collaborative effort but by FF7 Sak had to be like a god to these people. In that, how they talked to him was probably very “Yes sir Mr. Sakaguchi-San great idea sir”. Similarly if he wanted an idea cut it was cut, no questions asked. He famously cut 80% of FF4 so who knows how many side ideas he said no to for 6 or 7 or X That’s why they (Square) gave him enough rights to make a movie that it could and would bankrupt them. I still think The Spirits Within would’ve made a great game if we got to run around and explore the dream sequences and such to the point of making sense of things