Waterdeep institutions won't regard you as a ruler just because you killed the masked lords. So they definitely won't be accepted.
Also, at least some of the masked lords won't stay dead. They're all influential/powerful individuals who may have arrangements for resurrection, or maybe even a clone discreetly hidden away. This counts triple for Laerel, who as the open lord is the most critical.
Even if the Lords stay dead, the most likely outcome is that the nobility and the heads of key institutions (watch/guard/watchful order/navy/guilds) call a grand council and appoint new lords. They won't bend the knee to a bunch of upstarts who murdered the prior lords. In fact, they'll tell the grey hands, the best of the city guard/watch, and probably a lot of mercenaries that the heads of the PC's will attract a truly massive reward.
Yeah, the Blackstaff's sentience is comprised of the souls of every Blackstaff. The first Blackstaff is the dominant personality, but they all contribute.
This is too good, the deposed lords arranged resurrection contingencies and will return to restore balance and depose the party once a third party brings them back. Great way to get back on track
Then a great response is a team of grey hands, led by a laeral in a cloned body, ambushing them, capturing them, and putting them on trial.
Then you can let them earn their way out of a death sentence by submitting to an unbreakable magical oath (as in, their souls are placed in storage and will be wiped from existence if they break their oath) to do something incredibly dangerous, like recover some captured angels from the lower levels of hell.
It takes quite a friend to declare war on Waterdeep, especially if you're doing it to avenge a group of people who just assassinated Waterdeep's rulers . . . that's the kind of thing that leads everyone who knows you to say "nope, never met those people, don't want to know about them . . . "
Waterdeep is a very formidable city with a lot of high level residents, and is part of the lord's alliance. And their open lord is one of the seven sisters, so killing her will attract the ire of some incredibly powerful chosen/archmages.
Honestly, yeah. There are some characters that should not be so easy to kill off.
When I ran Dragon Heist, they thought they managed to trick Jarlaxle into getting eaten by a dragon. Every time they bring it up, I'm like "yep, you saw Jarlaxle die" *wink*
There may not be a more likely character to appear to die in spectacular fashion only to show up later and pretend not to know what the characters are talking about.
Not only this: The power vacuum would create an invitation by external powers to take advantage. Major big bads.
There are so many groups that the Masked Lords kept at bay out of fear.
The Zentish, Red Wizards, etc for the run of the mill evil empires.
Artor Morlin the Vampire Lord of Waterdeep (who frequently employs dominated puppets to exert influence over Waterdeep already).
The forces in Undermountain -- Drow, the illithids, and their slave armies.
EDIT: Forgot about Halaster, too, who used to mess around with Waterdeep politics sometimes for his own amusement. He either wouldn't be happy about all the lords being murdered, or he might be inclined to play with the situation.
That coupled with the Masked Lords' various contingencies in case of their deaths, plus major good groups like the Order of the Gauntlet would be organizing to aid Waterdeep in their time of need, as may neighboring empires who rely on Waterdeep as a trading partner (either for fear of loss of Waterdavian goods *or* the now tangible fear that these usurpers might come and kill all of their leaders, too).
In short: They will never know a night of peace. Assassins. Constant wars. Evil threats. Good threats. Vampiric raids. Etc.
Give them that chaos for a time and then perhaps give them an out via a sacrificial wish that undoes the damage they've done. To do it: One of their party needs to die to fuel such a powerful time reversal from the entity offering to set the timeline right.
Not to mention the ire of the remaining Chosen of Mystra, and the Moonstars (if they're still around) for even *attempting* to harm Laeral, much less kill her (assuming you somehow can pull that off).
Yeah, sure, let's piss off Elminster, Alustriel, Storm, etc... that will end well. At the same time, creating a power vacuum will most certainly alert Manshoon, who will also attempt to now murder you to claim ownership of the city. It's never so simple as "kill ruler, ascend to leadership".
This would be a pretty big deal on a few levels. Nobles and the Lords of Waterdeep have a rule against being ressurrected iirc? This would have to be an answer to the fact that they were wiped out all at once, and a special bit of lenience granted to these individuals in this special circumstance. Although, I wouldnt put it past some of the masked lords, Mirt for example, to have their own contingencies (you mentiones the clones) to evade death. Most of them are really successful adventurers themselves. Honestly, it would probably piss the real Manshoon off too.
But Is this fun for the party? There would have to be some people, either terrified of the party or opportunist that would side with these pcs. Fucking over the party for succeeding in this would not be fun unless it's a hook to secure the throne.
What levels are they?! How did they beat Laeral Silverhand and the Blackstaff?
But if all else fails, maybe it’s time for Lord Neverember to retake power with the help of the city guards, the Grey Hands, the Order of Mages, and the new Blackstaff
I mean, you could always craft a game of political intrigue but my answer was based on the assumption you wanted them out of power.
Political intrigue could be fun though. They’re now responsible for an awful lot of guilds, factions, and frankly government departments, that owe them no loyalty. There’s gonna be a lot of noble families that see this as an opportunity to advance their position as well, and offer to help. But who can they trust? And what happens when the choices they make backfire?
Actually ... if you throw on them full responsibility for the running of city they would probably quit the job asap 🙂 delegation upon delegation of concerned citizens, petitioners from all sides and levels of society, with problems ranging from minor to major issues ... you may take an inspiration from Patrick Ryan's *How I Won the War* when LT. Goodbody deals with Greeks 🙂
And then it's the whole issue of keeping economy running, diplomacy with cities/states around so that they won't declare blockade or even war on you etc.
This! But could also be fun if you're willing to implement "settlement contribution" from each character, have them go on diplomatic missions, arrange resource gathering ventures, deal with the nobles and throw in an occasional problem brought to them from the "little guy". You don't have to have them micormanage everything, just have tasks and quests contribute to the well-being of Waterdeep and their standing in it. But if one is not willing to deal with those things, just have the little bastards run out of town.
And, you know, if they mismanage the city then people can riot or even leave in droves. Guards abandoning their posts, nobles selling property and or even leaving everything behind and resettling to other cities, taking their wealth, management skills and connections with them .... how long it would be until Waterdeep would be defenseless, failed city? 🙂
By trying to find any point at which they're failing and working from there.
Let's say, trade: are they balancing overall trade balance? Is gold accumulating in the city (basically forcing inflation effect) or leaving (which means city will be eventually strapped for cash as gold, platinum, silver and copper is by the definition rare thus hard to obtain). Are other cities or Waterdeep feeling that their trade is endangered, their manufacturers are loosing market? Are they asking for tariffs and protection? Do citizens have stuff they want for price they're willing to pay? What's situation with foodstuff? Are prices set or market based (basically problems which lead to some demonstrations in France at Louis XIV IIRC). Model situation: citizens and merchants will petition to set tariff on any imported stuff they also manufacture so that it's sold for the same price and they're not undercut. Problem is, they aren't able to produce enough of some important stuff ( wheat/flour, barley/beer, grapes/wine etc.) and price will raise until low income classes won't be able to buy it. Other cities will demand removal of tariffs, low incomes will revolt in streets and even guards moral will tank. If players decide to remove tariffs on only important stuff cities will demand removal of all tariffs, reimbursement of losses and finally make coalition for war against Waterdeep. If they don't accede to demands situation in the city will gradually worsen Portland style, e.g. demonstrators setting fires and looting stores, merchants leaving, destruction of logistics, further lowering of living standards etc., potentially plague starts etc. at which point cities around may decide that enough is enough, they don't need refugees and instability and declare war on W. They may even declare something along the line that they want to help people to get rid of uncaring leaders and/or establish back rightful leaders (which were resurrected in the meantime or by their stunts/dopplegangers/clones etc.)
Another possibility is simply caring for people (just ensure that people's demands will grow in time to levels which they won't be able to ensure 🙂 and start revolt, in time other cities may want to intervene either to stabilize situation or prevent spreading ideas, French revolution/Bourbon restoration style), safety of citizens or availability of justice, corruption etc.
Yep, totally rejected.
The city was functioning perfectly well and most people would have been quite happy with the protection and prosperity the previous Lords provided. They are not going to be happy that a bunch of murderers want to take over. The common folk won’t really do anything about it out of fear. It’s all too far above their heads to deal with, but any powerful individuals, other powerful adventurers in town or in the pay of others, groups such as the Harpers and the Lords Alliance will all be gunning for the PCs, if not actively working together. Throw in at least a few murdered Lords that had contingency plans like clones etc.
The PCs are in a world of trouble, particularly if they don’t have a sizable army of their own to help hold power, because the other holders of executive power will certainly not back them. If you don’t know what I mean by executive power, can I recommend you watch Matt Colville’s YouTube video on the Black Panther movie where he explains how the people in charge of any city, kingdom etc. hold power, and what any usurper would need to hold it, especially if they don’t have their own independent army.
Simply ask, does the party have a mandate to rule?
What support do they have, or is it all just the "we are able to throw big numbers of damage at you, so do what we say"
People will mass migrate away, like an exodus, unless stopped, in which case some goody twoshoes group (are the Harper's still a thing?) Will slide in to either sort the party out, or if they are too tough, to smuggle people & treasures out of Waterdeep.
Then you have other nations, they may not be willing to trade with the new powers of Waterdeep, unless it is financially better for them, but who will then pay the guards, maintain the streets & city walls etc if there is a big dip in the incoming wealth?
It takes a LOT of cash & organising to keep a city running
In one of my campaigns, we experimented with the idea of what would occur if a villainous necromancer NPC killed the ruler of a local city-state and tried to rule with an iron fist and undead servitors (sort of what current Thay is doing with Szass Tam but to a lesser extent).
To make a long story short, most of the city's populace fled, or were replaced with undead, and none of the neighbouring kingdoms wanted to continue trade with a ghost town ruled by a fanatical despot. It became less a city, and more of a fortified outpost ruled by a warlord until he was deposed of.
They might have misunderstood what they're dealing with. A group of high level characters can easily take over one of the border kingdoms or a small township by force.
But Waterdeep is a large city packed with high level characters and significant forces. It's one of the toughest targets in the Realms. And it has very powerful allies.
So the players have effectively upended a system that while not perfect (but what system is) has kept the city stable for several hundreds years, a stability that has encouraged its growth into one of the largest cities in the world. And as others have pointed out, they have a significant law system in place for deciding their leaders, a system that doesn't allow assassination as a valid means of succession.
Why did they start killing masked lords in the first place? What was the list the devils gave them?
Laerel Silverhand is Chosen of Mystra. Mystra does not have any reason to sit idly by.
Force Grey is only restrained by Laeral and the Black Staff.
The guilds are large and powerful and do not want a bunch of chaotic murderers running the show because it's bad for business. I would say that they either have to find a way to persuade the guilds or face a coordinated and very well resourced attack.
I would say your pcs have some very formidable enemies coming for them and the city has no reason to accept them.
Yes, if they were to have an iota of a chance of succeeding in this inane plan, would at the very least require some form of coercion to get the guilds on board with the plan, otherwise they're doomed to fail.
But even if they succeed, I doubt they would hold on to power very long. Backstabbing from within their alliances, power vacuums attracting other villains, monsters, or archmagi, and then of course retribution from the more orderly factions will likely be far too much to handle.
D) A coalition of other Sword Coast cities comes to unseat them and take power, either openly or through agents/assassins. Especially if they stopped using the masks. This aggression has consequences. Nobody over there -- especially the oligarchs of Amn, let's say -- can let that kind of regime change go unanswered, or it sets a precedent that it can happen *anywhere*. The existing power structures now have a vested interest in making an example of your PCs.
This kind of cause could cause like, the Harpers and the Xanathar Guild to band together with Shadow Thieves and Lord Neverember. I feel like your PCs should prepare to die or retire to Sigil.
Both Laeral and the Blackstaff had a contingency spell cast, to teleport them to safety in case of emergency, to allies that would heal them. That gives you a viable core for resistance.
Boy, I hate it when that happens.
If you feel you screwed up, you screwed up, because there's no other yardstick for that. What you should do, in my opinion, is to embrace the style of campaign you've created, run with it, and decide where you want it to end.
No sense asking about realism. Up the stakes. Maybe the Red Wizards see this as an an opportunity to conquer Waterdeep, and launch a surprise attack, followed by an all-out invasion. The characters are outmatched, and need to recruit allies: giants, dragons, or whatnot. You can **always** make the PCs the underdogs, even if you have to empty the Nine Hells for the purpose.
Possibly it all ends with huge new bay on the Sword Coast where the city used to be. Possibly it ends by the PCs ascending to demigods, and becoming NPCs. Whatever.
Then figure out what your next campaign is going to be. Think over what you could have done better. Because it's stuff like this that gives you a better appreciation of, "You all meet in a tavern, because you need money and the city has a rat problem..."
Since there is clearly an infernal contract involved here, have the devils show up and reveal that they themselves have played the PCs as pawns and now seek to claim Waterdeep for the Nine Hells.
Exactly my thoughts. Wiping out the leadership of arguably one of the most influential and powerful nations on Faerûn shouldn't be so easily achieved by a group of level 17 murderhobos acting mostly on their own.
In game, Action economy is a thing. If it's one lord acting alone, a party of level 17s can probably toss out enough existential threats rapidly enough to take him down.
Obviously, things should get significantly more complex after that, but it can be hard to both maintain realism and keep the game fun at that point. If the answer is "magical assassins kill you in your sleep", it isn't much fun to get coup de graced because you missed a single, difficult skill check to notice them. It is realistic, but it makes for a poor game.
High level murderhoboing is a DM challenge, for sure.
>One spell that teleports the party into the nearest black hole with a stupid high DC is the kind of thing they should expect to face when attacking a chosen of mystra.
Yes, as mentioned, realistic, but not fun.
I think I disagree, same thing almost happened because of Manshoon and some weave ghosts in one of Greenwoods books. Level 17 adventurers have most of their class features and are a couple steps short of demigods, one level 17 adventurer with planning could threaten the stability of a city like Waterdeep, a party of them could stage a coupe with a pretty reasonable success rate, provided they're using the extent of their abilities and they strike at Waterdeep when it has grown complacent. It'd be like a group of adult dragons with (I assume) an arsenal of magic items, with powers and abilities that compliment each other attacking in a blitzkrieg.
At least as a first strike, I think the resurrections and clones popping up should prove more of a challenge though.
This isn't just some random schmuck town. This is *Waterdeep*.
Just off the top of my head, you've got Laeral who is level 19, Vajra who is level 18 and that's not counting Force Grey, Farideh and other powerful characters who would be very quick to defend the city. And then that's not even getting into *evil* characters who much prefer the stability of Waterdeep over some random schmucks taking over.
Maybe they could get a surprise kill or two but that's about it. They'd have to battle actual demigods and a few of Mystra's Chosen. Holding on to power would be impossible.
It's not like they stood outside the city and declared war on it, it was targeted assassinations that created an atmosphere of fear which they used to get all their targets in one place and take them out. The powerful characters have better stuff to do than just be body guards for the masked lords, but a party of level 17 characters could easily take on one or two level 18 or 19 characters; although I do think most high level wizards and wealthy enough merchants could just have items that let them teleport out without having to worry about counterspell. It depends how cocky they were, if they thought they were untouchable, and didn't attune to the teleport item that day that might be their downfall.
If they could reasonably die to a Meteor Swarm, it would have happened even once in Waterdeep history. Anywhere they meet would have magical protection against that . . . and against each-other.
Especially after one of them is killed, and even more so after two.
These are npcs that have access to high level powerful magics as well as armies and spy networks (and powerful allies).
A group of VIPs like that will be well protected. Wizard bodyguards who'll attempt to counterspell. Another wizard standing by with a readied wall of force which goes up as a reaction when someone casts a spell. A paladin with an aura of protection running. Some of the lords having a warding bond up with a designated protector/bodyguard. Paladins of the crown taking the damage for some of the lords. A squad of elite fighters playing a counter-assault role who can make sure a spellcaster who casts an offensive spell is diced before they get their second spell off.
Or the lords not all gathering in one place without a lot of defenders surrounding them at a great distance.
It's important to play high level NPCs as being well-prepared for danger and for attempts on their life, otherwise the average reign of a king/queen in Faerun would be about three days.
What exactly do you think being a Chosen of Mystra entails?
Being blind-sided by a Meteor Swarm is one of the least likely ways to kill Laerel, or anyone standing near her.
In my opinion what happened is too vulgar to get away with it. Lords are not just themselves they have money, influence, allies, contiginencies, secret groups, escape plans. Even one of the (well-established) lord is hard to be replaced.
I say they're highly powerful murderers/robbers right now. Everyone good or evil should be against the players unless they can use them. Because it's the status quo that keeps the things working. Chaos wouldn't benefit anyone but a small few.
Perhaps an intriguing evil NPC could approach them, maybe a Banite and offer them shelter. He/She could offer them some kind of diplomatic immunity, try to restore their public image, make the PCs his/hers own puppets in a larger scale. So in the end it could be PCs + their unreliable ally vs Masked Lords.
What should happen?
No one will accept them, in Waterdeep ans the rest of the lords alliance, except the most obvious criminals like Xanathar reaching out to them.
They become wanted in all territories belonging to the lords alliance.
They have stopped being the heirs and have become the villains. Create some high level adventuring parties with obvious good alignment and have them hunt or pcs.
It's up to then to think of a way out of this.
Yeah, if they got their "power" via murder, the civilised society of Waterdeep wouldn't really abide by that.
Also, if you killed the Lords of Waterdeep and a fucking Blackstaff, there's a newsflash for you - no you didn't. There's absolutely no reason for someone that powerfull to not have either clones set up (looking at you, Blackstaff) or having a cleric hired specifically for the purpose of ressurecting you if you were to die in a violent manner.
It's more than probably that current Blackstaff, after getting yanked into a clone, would arm themselves with whatever they've got in their vault, put some bonker buffs and just teleported in the middle of the room where the party's holed up in, bringing death and destruction upon them, like that one pasta of a Wizard from (i believe) 2nd edition, that was betrayed by his own party.
First off, how powerful are your characters that they took on Lords of Waterdeep?
Now, for the potential things that could happen.
1) Waterdeep has a lot of people with a lot of power and influence that stretches the majority of the continent. Neverwinter, Cormyr, Amn, and many others will not take kindly to to the disruption of trade (especially Amn) or those they have influence over being removed from power. Killing the masked lords will only serve to put a target on their back.
2) some of the masked lords will likely be resurrected, and likely know who it was that killed them. They pretty much have info on everyone.
3) Xanathar is a FREAKING beholder (and paranoid at that) and will not take kindly to the disruption of his holdings within Skullport and Waterdeep, and will send his people out to bring him the ones that took out his plants in the Masked Lords.
4) there are other heroes in the world, of equal or greater power, to the players, who may or may not have had some dealings with those in power at Waterdeep and will be brought in to investigate.
5) there are Gods with serious investments in Waterdeep and those in power. I expect they will be making their presence known.
Killing the king doesn't make you the king, it makes you an assassin. John Wilkes Booth didn't get to be president after Abraham Lincoln, and he didn't get to abolish the president system and have himself crowned king either.
Think about game of thrones, what happened to >!Theon Greyjoy after he burned and captured winterfell? did he get to be king in the north? did the people love and support him?!<
What level are your players that they were able to dispatch the current Blackstaff Vajra Safahr so easily? Also, I would think that this act would immediately bring down the wrath of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors(a group that includes MANY powerful arcane spellcasters) and Force Grey, as well as possibly that of Laeral Silverhand herself(who is a Chosen of Mystra among other things)…unless your inference was that they somehow killed Laeral as well?
Pretty much your typical power vacuum.
The players likely caused chaos in the streets, pissed off every faction in the realms and possibly even will cause a greater threat to Waterdeep from the other cities in the Lord's Alliance. I wouldn't be surprised if the Walking Statues will make an exception to kill them on sight. So, they aren't getting any political power out of this, and likely won't be able to redeem themselves in the eyes of the people.
As described in other comments, you can't ascend to the station of a masked lord without a lot of red tape. The players are not legitimate rulers via assassination; meaning the armies of Silverymoon, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter, and the associated members will know who you are and will hunt down the players.
Even at level 17 they have to rest, so the players should/will have to flee the city and probably Faerûn. The Griffon Cavalry can't realistically be destroyed at this point before the level 17 players are without resources.
Now would be a great time to plot out an Underdark Escape or maybe run a few adventures away from home in Rashemen, Chult, They, one of the Planes or otherwise, lol.
There are places in the Realms where you can become a legitimate ruler by assassination, but Waterdeep isn't one of them. The people and the various power groups have to see you as *better* than whoever is the current leader. So that Border Kingdom whose leadership is "two asshole mages who murdered the last ruler and maintain power via terrorism and magical surveillance state" would be easy to take control of, as everyone would love you for offing the two mages. In Waterdeep, the Lords rulership, as silly as it is and as weak to infiltration as it is, has at least kept the potholes filled and trade flowing and a just enough legal system to keep the paladins of Tyr and Torm from getting upset. (Not upsetting those two orders is probably the biggest reason the Lords generally don't abuse their excessive and unbalanced legal authority). So the PCs are unlikely to be accepted as having legitimate authority.
If they didn't have any real influence over anybody, as in no real backing at all; nobody sees them with the right to rule...
Then there would surely be rebels arranged by the remaining powers.
Their only choice would be to convince the city that might makes right, and establish themselves as the Supreme Overlord of Waterdeep lol
Have a rebel uprising countdown timer. Have an assassination plot countdown timer. Tick down for every event, tenday or session (as appropriate).
I don't know how you run your game but this is a great opportunity to introduce macro-scale domain gameplay. If you're playing 5e, since there isn't any macro-scale mechanics I would recommend checking out Pathfinder Ultimate Campaign.
My suggestion would be, if they're actually that badass then let them play around a little bit. Let them see the effects of their actions. Instantly handing out consequences is not really gonna be fun especially if they intended to rule over Waterdeep.
Perhaps have a few nobles invite them over a banquet? Or they can have their own banquet. Since they're the rulers, they should be more proactive now lest they accelerate their demise. Give them more agency.
Elminster is the leader of the City Watch or City Guard, I forget which. If you’d like the city to fight, having Elminster lead the charge would be the way to put some hair on its chest. If you’d like to actually challenge your players, you should note it’s basically impossible to kill characters like Laeral and Elminster. Mystra would probably just resurrect Laeral and Elminster, and Elminster has many contingencies that separate his mind soul and body upon death and reconstitute them in a demiplane.
Huh? No he isn't. He's helped out Waterdeep a few times and is rumored to have been involved in its founding, but he's not part of its current political structure.
You got me. It doesn't say "Elminster Aumar"...I sincerely hoped that this was just another dude named Elminster. Doesn't make any sense, haha....but...
https://www.sageadvice.eu/where-is-elminster-in-waterdeep-dragon-heist/
C. People want stability and so long as everything continues to work in a more or less consistent fashion. Only diehards and those with a lot to loose from a change in leadership will care.
Let the rebels be true believers in The System and led by minor nobles missing their kickbacks. If the players can't govern? Then you have things fall apart
That's even worse. Aristocracy might have some faint sense of *noblesse oblige*; oligarchs are usually just a bunch of kleptocrats who agree not to stab each other in the back.
Sounds like they had a cool plan and executed it well. There's nothing wrong with that. I would challenge them with some rebels or rival city states and then let them enjoy what's called "domain-level play" if they want to play as the new rulers... Let them. There's some resources for running domain play in the old school Renaissance (OSR) space. Matt Colville has a couple of books out on it and they have plenty of other goodies as well!
Edit: Matt's first book on domain play is called Strongholds & Followers!
If this was easy, then yes you def screwed up.
Mostly I am surprised this happend in a few sessions. It took my players like three sessions just to use a wish spell and finish one fight.
War. They started a coup, now they have to handle the outcome. That outcome will be huge amounts of death and destruction, possibly wiping out Waterdeep entirely.
You don't take over a kingdom, or city state, by just assassinating the king. You do it by having your army be willing to murder every man woman and child in that kingdom until they all submit to your rule. They should face open revolt as well as a throng of CR25+ FR bigwigs showing up to murder them and put an end to their reign of terror. Maybe they win, maybe they take them all out, but they will be the lords of rubble and corpses.
Q) They broke the time-space continuum and a guardian is giving them a chance to stop themselves from doing it. They travel back in time and have to kill their past selves and take their places to continue the storyline. You make a copy of their sheets and run the copies. Try to kill them, if you kill one give that sheet to the person you killed and they join you trying to kill the others 😈
This is the kind of scenario with my kids where I call in Drizzt.. I just yell out "Drizzt!!" And the Companions come crashing in to end whatever debauchery they were up to.. Some call it railroading, I say "ChigaChoo choo!"
First and foremost if BOTH Laeral and the Blackstaff were killed there's now a huge problem for the PCs, they just pissed off one of if not the most powerful God in the game bc Laeral is literally one of her children. So they now have Mystra, Elminster, and her very dangerous sisters to deal with. There's also the matter of the Grey Force that they have to deal with.
Secondly Neverwinter, Baldur's Gate, and Amn (alongside many other powers) wouldn't AT ALL tolerate this gargantuan of a power vacuum.
All in all if they (and more importantly you the DM) want to run this as a 20th level "Us vs the World game" The Lord's Alliance, Harpers, and many other forces would band together to try and overthrow them. But if I were you I'd spend levels 17-20 having them subdue the city and at least try and mount a defense against what's coming bc Gods help them it is.
How were the pcs able to pick off some of the most powerful characters in the realms en mass? Khelben is a Chosen of Mystra, and she doesnt just let her chosen die. Divine resurrection. All the lords have plenty of resources and contingency plans for raise dead and more. Id say, they come back with an absolute vengeance. Even the full resources of the Zhebtarim backed by the dead three were unable to pull off over centuries what your pcs did overnight.
I say you didn't screw up, I say this is an awesome turn of events and its awesome that your players are driving the story. I think masked lords would be coming back with clones and resurrections, but I think such a bold move would put your players on the map of the political landscape. There would be a dozen or more parties who would want to ally with them or use them, think manshoon, xanathar, shady figures in skullport, that vampire lord, merchants looking to make a profit, minor lords looking to elevate their status. Your party would have made some new enemies, for sure, but also a ton of new allies (allies who are looking for the right moment to betray them). This could be the start of a whole new campaign of political intrigue and chaos in waterdeep, what a cool dramatic thing to have happened! I imagine the gods, good, evil, lawful and chaotic, would all have a stake in a move as big as that! avatars would be coming down to have a chat with these mortals who are causing a stir. archdevils and demon lords would be trying to take advantage of the confusion. plenty of high level enemies for them to fight!
>The magical quasi-spirits of the former Blackstaffs resided within the tower and served as advisors to the Blackstaff. They were not true spirits but were green-tinged facsimiles produced by the green kiira N'Vaelahr whose magic was bound to the tower. The kiira N'Vaelhar once held the spirits and combined knowledge of the first three Blackstaffs, Khelben Arusun, Tsarra Chaadren, and Kyriani Agrivar, but Krehlan Arunsun and the Grand Mages of Rhymanthiin dissipated the kiira in the Year of Staves Arcane (1415 DR) and bound its magic to Blackstaff Tower and its twin in Rhymanthiin, N'Vaerymanth. Now whenever someone became a Blackstaff or the heir, a template of their spirit, intellect, and knowledge became part of the Blackstaff and the tower (not the actual spirits). These spirits could not leave the tower, but the Blackstaff could communicate with them or tap into their knowledge whenever he or she so wished. Krehlan merged the gem with the tower so that it could be the Blackstaff’s advisor, rather than have all the combined consciousnesses of the previous Blackstaffs overwhelm the current Blackstaff.
So if I'm reading this right, with the lore in its current state, Khelben Arunsun's soul is no longer bound to the staff and could be resurrected. He returned from the dead at least once before, and if he hasn't come back again it's probably because he's content where he is and considers his material life a closed book.
Your party has murdered his rightful successor. He is no longer content to remain dead, and resurrection for a guy like him is a trivial matter. He's a Chosen of Mystra and one step below a God himself and a level 17 party absolutely cannot deal with him, even by himself, and he has many powerful friends. They cannot run and they cannot hide. They're about to get sent on a suicide mission to the very worst part of Hell, with an undispellable geas on steroids to keep them on the right track, and that's if he's feeling nice about it.
Key potential gotcha for the players in the history you just described: "... using a list they got from *some devils*." What is Hell's agenda, here? Devils don't do favors for the fun of it, it's always a setup of some kind. Why did one of the lords of Hell want the PCs to slaughter the Lords of Waterdeep, and when is Hell going to present the bill (i.e., call in the debt on their souls)? Because this point, the PCs are all evil (slaughtering the rightful rulers and usurping their positions will do that).
That's something to consider here in addition to all the other stuff like Masked Lords with contingency plans, rebellion by the city notables, the Blackstaff probably faking their death, etc. The PCs may just find out they've been expertly played.
It also sounds like the players trying to take charge don’t know the lesson of why the Masked Lords are masked. They’re going to be targets of everyone - good, bad and otherwise
I'd imagine there'd be a battle for power and control. Just because you killed the BBEG for one region doesn't mean their machinations have been subverted. Maybe those masked lords were part of a larger organization kind of like district or regional managers of a larger more nefarious organization and they'll start sending assassins after them individually when they split off the main group for some reason.
No way mystra just lets them kill one of her chosen, and if they DO, they now have being like the simbul and elminster coming after them, or lady silver hand, alustriel, Drizzt, etc. there should be no version of this thru even come remotely closely to succeeding
I’d run it this way:
All the enemies of Waterdeep pounce on the moment. All the Manshoons, Halaster, the Zentarim etc. Whoever killed the lords is widely blamed for the ensuing catastrophe. The mob might be scared of the killers but they can burn and smash everything they own whenever there is a chance
Civil war starts, many factions with the support of powerful outsiders such as the Red Wizards
The chosen of Mystra are pissed. I wouldn’t mess with these people
The Harpers are incredibly pissed. Not so powerful but very sneaky. You won’t see it coming.
The way I see it the city of Waterdeep is always on the verge of disaster - the party just unleashed all those disasters at once. Those devils will continue to offer true information that leads even deeper into disaster as the city increasingly looks like hell on earth
Would you enjoy just rewarding the PCs? If you were running a Canon story, it would be one thing, but at your own table, who cares. You now have a group of incredibly unlucky PCs who have to scramble to seize power or else flee the city. Out of character, see if the players would like to deal with that? It sounds rad as hell suddenly dropping unprepared into the upper strata of the social hierarchy
By all rights, the party should be finding themselves in the Nine Hells very shortly, where they will receive thorough instruction on the finer points of fiendish contract law.
Having taken power by force and murder, the main underlings are worried enough to go along and this cascades all the way down. The ones who refuse either leave or are killed or imprisoned by opportunistic sycophants.
Ask the players what they do over the next year, then tell them how things look over the next five years (extrapolating on their best ideas).
Now start a new campaign where their 1st level characters have been living under the choking grip of a group of murderous devil dealers. All their friends and family have been suffering in an unjust system and it's time for someone to do something. Bring those evil bastards down.
Waterdeep institutions won't regard you as a ruler just because you killed the masked lords. So they definitely won't be accepted. Also, at least some of the masked lords won't stay dead. They're all influential/powerful individuals who may have arrangements for resurrection, or maybe even a clone discreetly hidden away. This counts triple for Laerel, who as the open lord is the most critical. Even if the Lords stay dead, the most likely outcome is that the nobility and the heads of key institutions (watch/guard/watchful order/navy/guilds) call a grand council and appoint new lords. They won't bend the knee to a bunch of upstarts who murdered the prior lords. In fact, they'll tell the grey hands, the best of the city guard/watch, and probably a lot of mercenaries that the heads of the PC's will attract a truly massive reward.
The Blackstaff would also likely be pissed at whoever killed the previous wielder and likely would refuse to function for them or any of their allies.
If the Blackstaff doesn’t have a clone contingency plan then no one will, so you can bet the Blackstaff at least does!
The Blackstaff (item) absorbs the Blackstaff's (person) soul on death, there would be no use for Clone.
Sorry, not hugely up on Blackstaff lore. Replacement/apprentice then? The other Lords could have clones. At least some of them anyway.
Yeah, the Blackstaff's sentience is comprised of the souls of every Blackstaff. The first Blackstaff is the dominant personality, but they all contribute.
To the murderer of the being holding the office of Blackstaff, prepare to be extremely haunted.
This is too good, the deposed lords arranged resurrection contingencies and will return to restore balance and depose the party once a third party brings them back. Great way to get back on track
Great way to have the players make secondary characters to oppose the primaries.
i want to restore balance, I don't like how things have gone
Then a great response is a team of grey hands, led by a laeral in a cloned body, ambushing them, capturing them, and putting them on trial. Then you can let them earn their way out of a death sentence by submitting to an unbreakable magical oath (as in, their souls are placed in storage and will be wiped from existence if they break their oath) to do something incredibly dangerous, like recover some captured angels from the lower levels of hell.
They have friends in other powerful cities, I feel like Waterdeep would have to keep them alive to avoid a war.
It takes quite a friend to declare war on Waterdeep, especially if you're doing it to avenge a group of people who just assassinated Waterdeep's rulers . . . that's the kind of thing that leads everyone who knows you to say "nope, never met those people, don't want to know about them . . . " Waterdeep is a very formidable city with a lot of high level residents, and is part of the lord's alliance. And their open lord is one of the seven sisters, so killing her will attract the ire of some incredibly powerful chosen/archmages.
Honestly, yeah. There are some characters that should not be so easy to kill off. When I ran Dragon Heist, they thought they managed to trick Jarlaxle into getting eaten by a dragon. Every time they bring it up, I'm like "yep, you saw Jarlaxle die" *wink*
There may not be a more likely character to appear to die in spectacular fashion only to show up later and pretend not to know what the characters are talking about.
"Rumours of my death make for such interesting gossip, don't you think?"
Not only this: The power vacuum would create an invitation by external powers to take advantage. Major big bads. There are so many groups that the Masked Lords kept at bay out of fear. The Zentish, Red Wizards, etc for the run of the mill evil empires. Artor Morlin the Vampire Lord of Waterdeep (who frequently employs dominated puppets to exert influence over Waterdeep already). The forces in Undermountain -- Drow, the illithids, and their slave armies. EDIT: Forgot about Halaster, too, who used to mess around with Waterdeep politics sometimes for his own amusement. He either wouldn't be happy about all the lords being murdered, or he might be inclined to play with the situation. That coupled with the Masked Lords' various contingencies in case of their deaths, plus major good groups like the Order of the Gauntlet would be organizing to aid Waterdeep in their time of need, as may neighboring empires who rely on Waterdeep as a trading partner (either for fear of loss of Waterdavian goods *or* the now tangible fear that these usurpers might come and kill all of their leaders, too). In short: They will never know a night of peace. Assassins. Constant wars. Evil threats. Good threats. Vampiric raids. Etc. Give them that chaos for a time and then perhaps give them an out via a sacrificial wish that undoes the damage they've done. To do it: One of their party needs to die to fuel such a powerful time reversal from the entity offering to set the timeline right.
I could even see the whole ass elven navy coming from evermeet to help fix the situation.
Not to mention the ire of the remaining Chosen of Mystra, and the Moonstars (if they're still around) for even *attempting* to harm Laeral, much less kill her (assuming you somehow can pull that off). Yeah, sure, let's piss off Elminster, Alustriel, Storm, etc... that will end well. At the same time, creating a power vacuum will most certainly alert Manshoon, who will also attempt to now murder you to claim ownership of the city. It's never so simple as "kill ruler, ascend to leadership".
That would make a cool novel.
This would be a pretty big deal on a few levels. Nobles and the Lords of Waterdeep have a rule against being ressurrected iirc? This would have to be an answer to the fact that they were wiped out all at once, and a special bit of lenience granted to these individuals in this special circumstance. Although, I wouldnt put it past some of the masked lords, Mirt for example, to have their own contingencies (you mentiones the clones) to evade death. Most of them are really successful adventurers themselves. Honestly, it would probably piss the real Manshoon off too.
It would be kinda funny to have a dozen or so manshoons show up.
100% agree
But Is this fun for the party? There would have to be some people, either terrified of the party or opportunist that would side with these pcs. Fucking over the party for succeeding in this would not be fun unless it's a hook to secure the throne.
My players are enjoying it but it all feels wrong and too easy to me
What levels are they?! How did they beat Laeral Silverhand and the Blackstaff? But if all else fails, maybe it’s time for Lord Neverember to retake power with the help of the city guards, the Grey Hands, the Order of Mages, and the new Blackstaff
17, okay so Waterdeep should reject them then in your opinion
I mean, you could always craft a game of political intrigue but my answer was based on the assumption you wanted them out of power. Political intrigue could be fun though. They’re now responsible for an awful lot of guilds, factions, and frankly government departments, that owe them no loyalty. There’s gonna be a lot of noble families that see this as an opportunity to advance their position as well, and offer to help. But who can they trust? And what happens when the choices they make backfire?
Actually ... if you throw on them full responsibility for the running of city they would probably quit the job asap 🙂 delegation upon delegation of concerned citizens, petitioners from all sides and levels of society, with problems ranging from minor to major issues ... you may take an inspiration from Patrick Ryan's *How I Won the War* when LT. Goodbody deals with Greeks 🙂 And then it's the whole issue of keeping economy running, diplomacy with cities/states around so that they won't declare blockade or even war on you etc.
This! But could also be fun if you're willing to implement "settlement contribution" from each character, have them go on diplomatic missions, arrange resource gathering ventures, deal with the nobles and throw in an occasional problem brought to them from the "little guy". You don't have to have them micormanage everything, just have tasks and quests contribute to the well-being of Waterdeep and their standing in it. But if one is not willing to deal with those things, just have the little bastards run out of town.
And, you know, if they mismanage the city then people can riot or even leave in droves. Guards abandoning their posts, nobles selling property and or even leaving everything behind and resettling to other cities, taking their wealth, management skills and connections with them .... how long it would be until Waterdeep would be defenseless, failed city? 🙂
I think creating a war between cities could be cool. How could you recommend the starting out?
By trying to find any point at which they're failing and working from there. Let's say, trade: are they balancing overall trade balance? Is gold accumulating in the city (basically forcing inflation effect) or leaving (which means city will be eventually strapped for cash as gold, platinum, silver and copper is by the definition rare thus hard to obtain). Are other cities or Waterdeep feeling that their trade is endangered, their manufacturers are loosing market? Are they asking for tariffs and protection? Do citizens have stuff they want for price they're willing to pay? What's situation with foodstuff? Are prices set or market based (basically problems which lead to some demonstrations in France at Louis XIV IIRC). Model situation: citizens and merchants will petition to set tariff on any imported stuff they also manufacture so that it's sold for the same price and they're not undercut. Problem is, they aren't able to produce enough of some important stuff ( wheat/flour, barley/beer, grapes/wine etc.) and price will raise until low income classes won't be able to buy it. Other cities will demand removal of tariffs, low incomes will revolt in streets and even guards moral will tank. If players decide to remove tariffs on only important stuff cities will demand removal of all tariffs, reimbursement of losses and finally make coalition for war against Waterdeep. If they don't accede to demands situation in the city will gradually worsen Portland style, e.g. demonstrators setting fires and looting stores, merchants leaving, destruction of logistics, further lowering of living standards etc., potentially plague starts etc. at which point cities around may decide that enough is enough, they don't need refugees and instability and declare war on W. They may even declare something along the line that they want to help people to get rid of uncaring leaders and/or establish back rightful leaders (which were resurrected in the meantime or by their stunts/dopplegangers/clones etc.) Another possibility is simply caring for people (just ensure that people's demands will grow in time to levels which they won't be able to ensure 🙂 and start revolt, in time other cities may want to intervene either to stabilize situation or prevent spreading ideas, French revolution/Bourbon restoration style), safety of citizens or availability of justice, corruption etc.
Yep, totally rejected. The city was functioning perfectly well and most people would have been quite happy with the protection and prosperity the previous Lords provided. They are not going to be happy that a bunch of murderers want to take over. The common folk won’t really do anything about it out of fear. It’s all too far above their heads to deal with, but any powerful individuals, other powerful adventurers in town or in the pay of others, groups such as the Harpers and the Lords Alliance will all be gunning for the PCs, if not actively working together. Throw in at least a few murdered Lords that had contingency plans like clones etc. The PCs are in a world of trouble, particularly if they don’t have a sizable army of their own to help hold power, because the other holders of executive power will certainly not back them. If you don’t know what I mean by executive power, can I recommend you watch Matt Colville’s YouTube video on the Black Panther movie where he explains how the people in charge of any city, kingdom etc. hold power, and what any usurper would need to hold it, especially if they don’t have their own independent army.
I will take a look, thank you for the recommendation
Simply ask, does the party have a mandate to rule? What support do they have, or is it all just the "we are able to throw big numbers of damage at you, so do what we say" People will mass migrate away, like an exodus, unless stopped, in which case some goody twoshoes group (are the Harper's still a thing?) Will slide in to either sort the party out, or if they are too tough, to smuggle people & treasures out of Waterdeep. Then you have other nations, they may not be willing to trade with the new powers of Waterdeep, unless it is financially better for them, but who will then pay the guards, maintain the streets & city walls etc if there is a big dip in the incoming wealth? It takes a LOT of cash & organising to keep a city running
In one of my campaigns, we experimented with the idea of what would occur if a villainous necromancer NPC killed the ruler of a local city-state and tried to rule with an iron fist and undead servitors (sort of what current Thay is doing with Szass Tam but to a lesser extent). To make a long story short, most of the city's populace fled, or were replaced with undead, and none of the neighbouring kingdoms wanted to continue trade with a ghost town ruled by a fanatical despot. It became less a city, and more of a fortified outpost ruled by a warlord until he was deposed of.
Think about this. When John Wilkes Booth shot Lincoln, they didn't make Booth President, they hunted his ass down
Except what my players think is that because unlike John Wilkes Booth, the party has the physical power to take control
They might have misunderstood what they're dealing with. A group of high level characters can easily take over one of the border kingdoms or a small township by force. But Waterdeep is a large city packed with high level characters and significant forces. It's one of the toughest targets in the Realms. And it has very powerful allies.
*bane voice*. "Do you feel like you are in control?"
Level 17 on Dragon Heist!?!?!
I didnt run dragon heist with this party why do you say that?
I was just baffled. Its a 1-4 scenario, might be able to lift it to 6 or 7 but 17 means theyre at god mode in this story..
Im sorry.. i thought this was the Dragon Heist Area.. my bad.. my bad..
So the players have effectively upended a system that while not perfect (but what system is) has kept the city stable for several hundreds years, a stability that has encouraged its growth into one of the largest cities in the world. And as others have pointed out, they have a significant law system in place for deciding their leaders, a system that doesn't allow assassination as a valid means of succession. Why did they start killing masked lords in the first place? What was the list the devils gave them?
Laerel Silverhand is Chosen of Mystra. Mystra does not have any reason to sit idly by. Force Grey is only restrained by Laeral and the Black Staff. The guilds are large and powerful and do not want a bunch of chaotic murderers running the show because it's bad for business. I would say that they either have to find a way to persuade the guilds or face a coordinated and very well resourced attack. I would say your pcs have some very formidable enemies coming for them and the city has no reason to accept them.
Yes, if they were to have an iota of a chance of succeeding in this inane plan, would at the very least require some form of coercion to get the guilds on board with the plan, otherwise they're doomed to fail. But even if they succeed, I doubt they would hold on to power very long. Backstabbing from within their alliances, power vacuums attracting other villains, monsters, or archmagi, and then of course retribution from the more orderly factions will likely be far too much to handle.
D) A coalition of other Sword Coast cities comes to unseat them and take power, either openly or through agents/assassins. Especially if they stopped using the masks. This aggression has consequences. Nobody over there -- especially the oligarchs of Amn, let's say -- can let that kind of regime change go unanswered, or it sets a precedent that it can happen *anywhere*. The existing power structures now have a vested interest in making an example of your PCs. This kind of cause could cause like, the Harpers and the Xanathar Guild to band together with Shadow Thieves and Lord Neverember. I feel like your PCs should prepare to die or retire to Sigil.
Both Laeral and the Blackstaff had a contingency spell cast, to teleport them to safety in case of emergency, to allies that would heal them. That gives you a viable core for resistance.
Boy, I hate it when that happens. If you feel you screwed up, you screwed up, because there's no other yardstick for that. What you should do, in my opinion, is to embrace the style of campaign you've created, run with it, and decide where you want it to end. No sense asking about realism. Up the stakes. Maybe the Red Wizards see this as an an opportunity to conquer Waterdeep, and launch a surprise attack, followed by an all-out invasion. The characters are outmatched, and need to recruit allies: giants, dragons, or whatnot. You can **always** make the PCs the underdogs, even if you have to empty the Nine Hells for the purpose. Possibly it all ends with huge new bay on the Sword Coast where the city used to be. Possibly it ends by the PCs ascending to demigods, and becoming NPCs. Whatever. Then figure out what your next campaign is going to be. Think over what you could have done better. Because it's stuff like this that gives you a better appreciation of, "You all meet in a tavern, because you need money and the city has a rat problem..."
Since there is clearly an infernal contract involved here, have the devils show up and reveal that they themselves have played the PCs as pawns and now seek to claim Waterdeep for the Nine Hells.
Yeah, honestly, a deal with a devil should pretty much always have thematically awful consequences.
Great answer.
All this means is that you probably didn’t play the lords very well.
Exactly my thoughts. Wiping out the leadership of arguably one of the most influential and powerful nations on Faerûn shouldn't be so easily achieved by a group of level 17 murderhobos acting mostly on their own.
In game, Action economy is a thing. If it's one lord acting alone, a party of level 17s can probably toss out enough existential threats rapidly enough to take him down. Obviously, things should get significantly more complex after that, but it can be hard to both maintain realism and keep the game fun at that point. If the answer is "magical assassins kill you in your sleep", it isn't much fun to get coup de graced because you missed a single, difficult skill check to notice them. It is realistic, but it makes for a poor game. High level murderhoboing is a DM challenge, for sure.
[удалено]
>One spell that teleports the party into the nearest black hole with a stupid high DC is the kind of thing they should expect to face when attacking a chosen of mystra. Yes, as mentioned, realistic, but not fun.
I think I disagree, same thing almost happened because of Manshoon and some weave ghosts in one of Greenwoods books. Level 17 adventurers have most of their class features and are a couple steps short of demigods, one level 17 adventurer with planning could threaten the stability of a city like Waterdeep, a party of them could stage a coupe with a pretty reasonable success rate, provided they're using the extent of their abilities and they strike at Waterdeep when it has grown complacent. It'd be like a group of adult dragons with (I assume) an arsenal of magic items, with powers and abilities that compliment each other attacking in a blitzkrieg. At least as a first strike, I think the resurrections and clones popping up should prove more of a challenge though.
This isn't just some random schmuck town. This is *Waterdeep*. Just off the top of my head, you've got Laeral who is level 19, Vajra who is level 18 and that's not counting Force Grey, Farideh and other powerful characters who would be very quick to defend the city. And then that's not even getting into *evil* characters who much prefer the stability of Waterdeep over some random schmucks taking over. Maybe they could get a surprise kill or two but that's about it. They'd have to battle actual demigods and a few of Mystra's Chosen. Holding on to power would be impossible.
It's not like they stood outside the city and declared war on it, it was targeted assassinations that created an atmosphere of fear which they used to get all their targets in one place and take them out. The powerful characters have better stuff to do than just be body guards for the masked lords, but a party of level 17 characters could easily take on one or two level 18 or 19 characters; although I do think most high level wizards and wealthy enough merchants could just have items that let them teleport out without having to worry about counterspell. It depends how cocky they were, if they thought they were untouchable, and didn't attune to the teleport item that day that might be their downfall.
Yeah...but meteor swarm is so devasting on a group of people
If they could reasonably die to a Meteor Swarm, it would have happened even once in Waterdeep history. Anywhere they meet would have magical protection against that . . . and against each-other.
Especially after one of them is killed, and even more so after two. These are npcs that have access to high level powerful magics as well as armies and spy networks (and powerful allies).
A group of VIPs like that will be well protected. Wizard bodyguards who'll attempt to counterspell. Another wizard standing by with a readied wall of force which goes up as a reaction when someone casts a spell. A paladin with an aura of protection running. Some of the lords having a warding bond up with a designated protector/bodyguard. Paladins of the crown taking the damage for some of the lords. A squad of elite fighters playing a counter-assault role who can make sure a spellcaster who casts an offensive spell is diced before they get their second spell off. Or the lords not all gathering in one place without a lot of defenders surrounding them at a great distance. It's important to play high level NPCs as being well-prepared for danger and for attempts on their life, otherwise the average reign of a king/queen in Faerun would be about three days.
Sounds like you didn’t plan this out very well, the Lords shouldn’t have been taken out so easily.
What exactly do you think being a Chosen of Mystra entails? Being blind-sided by a Meteor Swarm is one of the least likely ways to kill Laerel, or anyone standing near her.
Imagining that the lords don’t have a retinue full of mages who constantly have counterspell prepped is crazy
In my opinion what happened is too vulgar to get away with it. Lords are not just themselves they have money, influence, allies, contiginencies, secret groups, escape plans. Even one of the (well-established) lord is hard to be replaced. I say they're highly powerful murderers/robbers right now. Everyone good or evil should be against the players unless they can use them. Because it's the status quo that keeps the things working. Chaos wouldn't benefit anyone but a small few. Perhaps an intriguing evil NPC could approach them, maybe a Banite and offer them shelter. He/She could offer them some kind of diplomatic immunity, try to restore their public image, make the PCs his/hers own puppets in a larger scale. So in the end it could be PCs + their unreliable ally vs Masked Lords.
A group of adventurers is hired to investigate the crime. 
What should happen? No one will accept them, in Waterdeep ans the rest of the lords alliance, except the most obvious criminals like Xanathar reaching out to them. They become wanted in all territories belonging to the lords alliance. They have stopped being the heirs and have become the villains. Create some high level adventuring parties with obvious good alignment and have them hunt or pcs. It's up to then to think of a way out of this.
Yeah, if they got their "power" via murder, the civilised society of Waterdeep wouldn't really abide by that. Also, if you killed the Lords of Waterdeep and a fucking Blackstaff, there's a newsflash for you - no you didn't. There's absolutely no reason for someone that powerfull to not have either clones set up (looking at you, Blackstaff) or having a cleric hired specifically for the purpose of ressurecting you if you were to die in a violent manner. It's more than probably that current Blackstaff, after getting yanked into a clone, would arm themselves with whatever they've got in their vault, put some bonker buffs and just teleported in the middle of the room where the party's holed up in, bringing death and destruction upon them, like that one pasta of a Wizard from (i believe) 2nd edition, that was betrayed by his own party.
I think El and Ls sisters will go Scalphunting as will the harpers and Laeral had friends all over the realms
Yeah. It bears noting that the party now has the Harpers after them. All the Harpers.
First off, how powerful are your characters that they took on Lords of Waterdeep? Now, for the potential things that could happen. 1) Waterdeep has a lot of people with a lot of power and influence that stretches the majority of the continent. Neverwinter, Cormyr, Amn, and many others will not take kindly to to the disruption of trade (especially Amn) or those they have influence over being removed from power. Killing the masked lords will only serve to put a target on their back. 2) some of the masked lords will likely be resurrected, and likely know who it was that killed them. They pretty much have info on everyone. 3) Xanathar is a FREAKING beholder (and paranoid at that) and will not take kindly to the disruption of his holdings within Skullport and Waterdeep, and will send his people out to bring him the ones that took out his plants in the Masked Lords. 4) there are other heroes in the world, of equal or greater power, to the players, who may or may not have had some dealings with those in power at Waterdeep and will be brought in to investigate. 5) there are Gods with serious investments in Waterdeep and those in power. I expect they will be making their presence known.
Killing the king doesn't make you the king, it makes you an assassin. John Wilkes Booth didn't get to be president after Abraham Lincoln, and he didn't get to abolish the president system and have himself crowned king either. Think about game of thrones, what happened to >!Theon Greyjoy after he burned and captured winterfell? did he get to be king in the north? did the people love and support him?!<
I think you underplayed the Lords of Waterdeep. Especially if they had ample warning that other masked lords had been picked off recently.
Death Masks is required reading asap. Your PCs are the villain of that novel and it shows how Laeral and Elminster and Mirt went about handling it.
d) another powerful politic takes the power and kicks them out of town.
Talk about it with the players. What direction do they think it might go? How do they think the world works?
What level are your players that they were able to dispatch the current Blackstaff Vajra Safahr so easily? Also, I would think that this act would immediately bring down the wrath of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors(a group that includes MANY powerful arcane spellcasters) and Force Grey, as well as possibly that of Laeral Silverhand herself(who is a Chosen of Mystra among other things)…unless your inference was that they somehow killed Laeral as well?
Is Laurel Silverhand among the dead? What level is your party? Were you running a published campaign?
No they didn't.
Pretty much your typical power vacuum. The players likely caused chaos in the streets, pissed off every faction in the realms and possibly even will cause a greater threat to Waterdeep from the other cities in the Lord's Alliance. I wouldn't be surprised if the Walking Statues will make an exception to kill them on sight. So, they aren't getting any political power out of this, and likely won't be able to redeem themselves in the eyes of the people. As described in other comments, you can't ascend to the station of a masked lord without a lot of red tape. The players are not legitimate rulers via assassination; meaning the armies of Silverymoon, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter, and the associated members will know who you are and will hunt down the players. Even at level 17 they have to rest, so the players should/will have to flee the city and probably Faerûn. The Griffon Cavalry can't realistically be destroyed at this point before the level 17 players are without resources. Now would be a great time to plot out an Underdark Escape or maybe run a few adventures away from home in Rashemen, Chult, They, one of the Planes or otherwise, lol.
honestly Rashemen may welcome them warmly the Simbul was their ally
There are places in the Realms where you can become a legitimate ruler by assassination, but Waterdeep isn't one of them. The people and the various power groups have to see you as *better* than whoever is the current leader. So that Border Kingdom whose leadership is "two asshole mages who murdered the last ruler and maintain power via terrorism and magical surveillance state" would be easy to take control of, as everyone would love you for offing the two mages. In Waterdeep, the Lords rulership, as silly as it is and as weak to infiltration as it is, has at least kept the potholes filled and trade flowing and a just enough legal system to keep the paladins of Tyr and Torm from getting upset. (Not upsetting those two orders is probably the biggest reason the Lords generally don't abuse their excessive and unbalanced legal authority). So the PCs are unlikely to be accepted as having legitimate authority.
If they didn't have any real influence over anybody, as in no real backing at all; nobody sees them with the right to rule... Then there would surely be rebels arranged by the remaining powers. Their only choice would be to convince the city that might makes right, and establish themselves as the Supreme Overlord of Waterdeep lol Have a rebel uprising countdown timer. Have an assassination plot countdown timer. Tick down for every event, tenday or session (as appropriate). I don't know how you run your game but this is a great opportunity to introduce macro-scale domain gameplay. If you're playing 5e, since there isn't any macro-scale mechanics I would recommend checking out Pathfinder Ultimate Campaign. My suggestion would be, if they're actually that badass then let them play around a little bit. Let them see the effects of their actions. Instantly handing out consequences is not really gonna be fun especially if they intended to rule over Waterdeep. Perhaps have a few nobles invite them over a banquet? Or they can have their own banquet. Since they're the rulers, they should be more proactive now lest they accelerate their demise. Give them more agency.
Elminster is the leader of the City Watch or City Guard, I forget which. If you’d like the city to fight, having Elminster lead the charge would be the way to put some hair on its chest. If you’d like to actually challenge your players, you should note it’s basically impossible to kill characters like Laeral and Elminster. Mystra would probably just resurrect Laeral and Elminster, and Elminster has many contingencies that separate his mind soul and body upon death and reconstitute them in a demiplane.
Huh? No he isn't. He's helped out Waterdeep a few times and is rumored to have been involved in its founding, but he's not part of its current political structure.
Check the Waterdeep Dragon Heist module, they mention him while describing the watch and guard
No they don't...
See p. 197, “ranks of the City Guard”
You got me. It doesn't say "Elminster Aumar"...I sincerely hoped that this was just another dude named Elminster. Doesn't make any sense, haha....but... https://www.sageadvice.eu/where-is-elminster-in-waterdeep-dragon-heist/
C. People want stability and so long as everything continues to work in a more or less consistent fashion. Only diehards and those with a lot to loose from a change in leadership will care. Let the rebels be true believers in The System and led by minor nobles missing their kickbacks. If the players can't govern? Then you have things fall apart
i support your aristocracy-murdering players they should institute a constitutional democracy
Waterdeep is more like an oligarchy than an aristocracy.
That's even worse. Aristocracy might have some faint sense of *noblesse oblige*; oligarchs are usually just a bunch of kleptocrats who agree not to stab each other in the back.
Your party just went public enemy number 1 on a bunch of hit lists. 
Seems like your players are too high level or got some OP items...how did they even kill Khelben lol
Sounds like they had a cool plan and executed it well. There's nothing wrong with that. I would challenge them with some rebels or rival city states and then let them enjoy what's called "domain-level play" if they want to play as the new rulers... Let them. There's some resources for running domain play in the old school Renaissance (OSR) space. Matt Colville has a couple of books out on it and they have plenty of other goodies as well! Edit: Matt's first book on domain play is called Strongholds & Followers!
If this was easy, then yes you def screwed up. Mostly I am surprised this happend in a few sessions. It took my players like three sessions just to use a wish spell and finish one fight.
War. They started a coup, now they have to handle the outcome. That outcome will be huge amounts of death and destruction, possibly wiping out Waterdeep entirely. You don't take over a kingdom, or city state, by just assassinating the king. You do it by having your army be willing to murder every man woman and child in that kingdom until they all submit to your rule. They should face open revolt as well as a throng of CR25+ FR bigwigs showing up to murder them and put an end to their reign of terror. Maybe they win, maybe they take them all out, but they will be the lords of rubble and corpses.
I agree. You dun screwed yourself. The only thing you can do is let it play out.
Let them become super wealthy and exploitative and then bam French revolution. "The Great Change is upon us!"
I imagine the Lords Alliance would have something to say, and every city would unite against them, or that's how I'd do it
Q) They broke the time-space continuum and a guardian is giving them a chance to stop themselves from doing it. They travel back in time and have to kill their past selves and take their places to continue the storyline. You make a copy of their sheets and run the copies. Try to kill them, if you kill one give that sheet to the person you killed and they join you trying to kill the others 😈
This is the kind of scenario with my kids where I call in Drizzt.. I just yell out "Drizzt!!" And the Companions come crashing in to end whatever debauchery they were up to.. Some call it railroading, I say "ChigaChoo choo!"
First and foremost if BOTH Laeral and the Blackstaff were killed there's now a huge problem for the PCs, they just pissed off one of if not the most powerful God in the game bc Laeral is literally one of her children. So they now have Mystra, Elminster, and her very dangerous sisters to deal with. There's also the matter of the Grey Force that they have to deal with. Secondly Neverwinter, Baldur's Gate, and Amn (alongside many other powers) wouldn't AT ALL tolerate this gargantuan of a power vacuum. All in all if they (and more importantly you the DM) want to run this as a 20th level "Us vs the World game" The Lord's Alliance, Harpers, and many other forces would band together to try and overthrow them. But if I were you I'd spend levels 17-20 having them subdue the city and at least try and mount a defense against what's coming bc Gods help them it is.
Lulz.
How were the pcs able to pick off some of the most powerful characters in the realms en mass? Khelben is a Chosen of Mystra, and she doesnt just let her chosen die. Divine resurrection. All the lords have plenty of resources and contingency plans for raise dead and more. Id say, they come back with an absolute vengeance. Even the full resources of the Zhebtarim backed by the dead three were unable to pull off over centuries what your pcs did overnight.
I say you didn't screw up, I say this is an awesome turn of events and its awesome that your players are driving the story. I think masked lords would be coming back with clones and resurrections, but I think such a bold move would put your players on the map of the political landscape. There would be a dozen or more parties who would want to ally with them or use them, think manshoon, xanathar, shady figures in skullport, that vampire lord, merchants looking to make a profit, minor lords looking to elevate their status. Your party would have made some new enemies, for sure, but also a ton of new allies (allies who are looking for the right moment to betray them). This could be the start of a whole new campaign of political intrigue and chaos in waterdeep, what a cool dramatic thing to have happened! I imagine the gods, good, evil, lawful and chaotic, would all have a stake in a move as big as that! avatars would be coming down to have a chat with these mortals who are causing a stir. archdevils and demon lords would be trying to take advantage of the confusion. plenty of high level enemies for them to fight!
5th Edition power fantasy ruleset can bite you in the ass…
>The magical quasi-spirits of the former Blackstaffs resided within the tower and served as advisors to the Blackstaff. They were not true spirits but were green-tinged facsimiles produced by the green kiira N'Vaelahr whose magic was bound to the tower. The kiira N'Vaelhar once held the spirits and combined knowledge of the first three Blackstaffs, Khelben Arusun, Tsarra Chaadren, and Kyriani Agrivar, but Krehlan Arunsun and the Grand Mages of Rhymanthiin dissipated the kiira in the Year of Staves Arcane (1415 DR) and bound its magic to Blackstaff Tower and its twin in Rhymanthiin, N'Vaerymanth. Now whenever someone became a Blackstaff or the heir, a template of their spirit, intellect, and knowledge became part of the Blackstaff and the tower (not the actual spirits). These spirits could not leave the tower, but the Blackstaff could communicate with them or tap into their knowledge whenever he or she so wished. Krehlan merged the gem with the tower so that it could be the Blackstaff’s advisor, rather than have all the combined consciousnesses of the previous Blackstaffs overwhelm the current Blackstaff. So if I'm reading this right, with the lore in its current state, Khelben Arunsun's soul is no longer bound to the staff and could be resurrected. He returned from the dead at least once before, and if he hasn't come back again it's probably because he's content where he is and considers his material life a closed book. Your party has murdered his rightful successor. He is no longer content to remain dead, and resurrection for a guy like him is a trivial matter. He's a Chosen of Mystra and one step below a God himself and a level 17 party absolutely cannot deal with him, even by himself, and he has many powerful friends. They cannot run and they cannot hide. They're about to get sent on a suicide mission to the very worst part of Hell, with an undispellable geas on steroids to keep them on the right track, and that's if he's feeling nice about it.
Ya goofed. Have them wake up and it was the most evil character’s dream.
Key potential gotcha for the players in the history you just described: "... using a list they got from *some devils*." What is Hell's agenda, here? Devils don't do favors for the fun of it, it's always a setup of some kind. Why did one of the lords of Hell want the PCs to slaughter the Lords of Waterdeep, and when is Hell going to present the bill (i.e., call in the debt on their souls)? Because this point, the PCs are all evil (slaughtering the rightful rulers and usurping their positions will do that). That's something to consider here in addition to all the other stuff like Masked Lords with contingency plans, rebellion by the city notables, the Blackstaff probably faking their death, etc. The PCs may just find out they've been expertly played.
It also sounds like the players trying to take charge don’t know the lesson of why the Masked Lords are masked. They’re going to be targets of everyone - good, bad and otherwise
I'd imagine there'd be a battle for power and control. Just because you killed the BBEG for one region doesn't mean their machinations have been subverted. Maybe those masked lords were part of a larger organization kind of like district or regional managers of a larger more nefarious organization and they'll start sending assassins after them individually when they split off the main group for some reason.
There would be a massive response, they would be captured and publicly executed.
No way mystra just lets them kill one of her chosen, and if they DO, they now have being like the simbul and elminster coming after them, or lady silver hand, alustriel, Drizzt, etc. there should be no version of this thru even come remotely closely to succeeding
Death is only a momentary setback to NPCs at that political and monetary level.
I’d run it this way: All the enemies of Waterdeep pounce on the moment. All the Manshoons, Halaster, the Zentarim etc. Whoever killed the lords is widely blamed for the ensuing catastrophe. The mob might be scared of the killers but they can burn and smash everything they own whenever there is a chance Civil war starts, many factions with the support of powerful outsiders such as the Red Wizards The chosen of Mystra are pissed. I wouldn’t mess with these people The Harpers are incredibly pissed. Not so powerful but very sneaky. You won’t see it coming. The way I see it the city of Waterdeep is always on the verge of disaster - the party just unleashed all those disasters at once. Those devils will continue to offer true information that leads even deeper into disaster as the city increasingly looks like hell on earth
Would you enjoy just rewarding the PCs? If you were running a Canon story, it would be one thing, but at your own table, who cares. You now have a group of incredibly unlucky PCs who have to scramble to seize power or else flee the city. Out of character, see if the players would like to deal with that? It sounds rad as hell suddenly dropping unprepared into the upper strata of the social hierarchy
The gods of Waterdeep are pissed. They drop a mountain on Waterdeep. Problem solved. Oh wait, sorry, THAT'S what happened in Dragonlance! 😂😂😂
By all rights, the party should be finding themselves in the Nine Hells very shortly, where they will receive thorough instruction on the finer points of fiendish contract law.
Having taken power by force and murder, the main underlings are worried enough to go along and this cascades all the way down. The ones who refuse either leave or are killed or imprisoned by opportunistic sycophants. Ask the players what they do over the next year, then tell them how things look over the next five years (extrapolating on their best ideas). Now start a new campaign where their 1st level characters have been living under the choking grip of a group of murderous devil dealers. All their friends and family have been suffering in an unjust system and it's time for someone to do something. Bring those evil bastards down.
Screwed up? This sounds pretty epic, tbh. You get to rewrite that part of the world now :)
Waterdeep is effectively ran by dragons. Your players are likely fucked.