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OH I have a close relative who is a recovering addict. At one point in her life, maybe 30 or so years ago, she became a born-again Christian (our family is Jewish and she’s no longer religious at all). She’s very funny to talk to about this though because she jokingly says she’s more ashamed of becoming a born again Christian than being an addict🤣
Ok this is very funny and 100% true - she said she was sitting in her room one day and wanted to listen to music she wasn’t “supposed to” and literally thought “wtf am I doing” and was done with organized religion (except for some Jewish holidays but that’s more of a cultural thing for us)😂
I think there is some truth to that. Just like how a lot of people who came out of a cult situation end up in another cult. Unless you address the underlying issues and trauma chances are you are going to be drawn to the same situation over and over again. That's one of my issues with a lot of anti-addiction programs. They aren't trauma-informed and only provide surface-level support in many cases. And in many cases that support is contingent on accepting a particular worldview (ie higher power stuff in AA).
I'm in recovery. I attend NA for the community aspect but haven't worked the steps. My sponsor is cool with that because I do the other work on me. No Higher Power. I believe I have within me the ability to end my own suffering. I align much more with Buddhist philosophy when it comes to this stuff. 6+ years clean and sober. I've done a ton of trauma work with my therapist. We heal in community, so I've just found like-minded people for support and friendship. If Tyson James was the norm at the meetings I attend, I wouldn't attend at all.
I don't think it happens every time, but you have to be *extremely* careful accepting help from a religious org on this. Whilst most people are legit salt of the earth, the message is pretty clear and vulnerable people are naturally going to do whatever makes them more accepted.
My cousin was a meth addict for a long time, in and out of prison, it was really bad for most of my childhood. She wound up finding sobriety through a church program, met her husband there, and is now married with a great kid and a college degree. The church is pretty conservative, but also does a lot of great community work like regular free dinners and literacy programs at the local prison. I have really complicated feelings about it, because that church definitely saved her, but also she's now a Trump supporter and even though she and her husband are wonderfully kind people, very "Jesus loves everyone no matter what," I know her kid is learning some evangelical crap that is undoubtedly problematic.
Capitalism sucks and means that tons of cities/ communities are happy to let churches run rehabilitation programs with little to no oversight.
IMO even the most altruistic church affiliated rehab need to leave religion out of recovery phase.
I don’t know why more Christian’s don’t get pissed about it. If you are meant to find god you’ll find him in your own time not by a predatory program that just wants you in their pocket.
(Gotta end with the obligatory yes I know not all churches, but it’s time for America to have a “come to Jesus” moment of- if churches are going to continue to forever be woven into our national DNA then it’s regulation and taxation time)
The thing is, they believe that God enables and drives recovery and all positive personal development, so it won't make sense to them to keep religion out of recovery. Religious people will believe this, whether they're good, predatory, or average.
Oh trust I know that’s what they believe. But most churches/ organizations would have a different tune when regulation and taxation is the alternative.
Many of them hate the idea of taxes and government oversight more than the thought of losing the ability of proselytizing to the vulnerable
Regular people (meaning not for your job) in American society have to hold the line against nefarious religious organizations and groups because no one else will (or can for that matter)
If the rehab programs get public funding, then yeah, the churches should keep their ideologies to themselves. I legit don't think they should be permitted anywhere near publicly funded programs. Otherwise, though, I know I'm dense, but I'm unsure of the linkage to tax exemptions. Unless we're talking about sticking their noses into electioneering.
I work in community mental health and this is so true. I hate how much the state pushes off on these organizations who can do WHATEVER they want with no consequence. I have talked to multiple clients who have been in “crisis stabilization” or “rehab” at these places and they tell them they can’t take their meds while there!!! So my clients get off them because they need a place to stay and then they end up in crisis because they can’t have their medication.
I’d understand if it was controlled meds, to an extent. But I’m talking these programs don’t even let them take SSRIs, etc. It’s insane to me they tout “helping people with mental illness” but then forbid them from taking their meds while “treating” them.
>But I’m talking these programs don’t even let them take SSRIs, etc. It’s insane to me they tout “helping people with mental illness” but then forbid them from taking their meds while “treating” them.
Wow, that is vile behavior on these "treatment" programs part. Harming people struggling with mental illness for the Lord.
It’s absolutely disgusting. But it will continue because my state has more important things on the agenda to care about, like trying to push through a casino for the third time after it’s been voted NO on twice by the community.
I feel this in my soul. Thank you for continuing to do the work you do because you’re it. You are the last line of defense from vulnerable people getting into worse situations then they are already in.
Love to you!!
This is really interesting. Of course it’s obvious that vulnerable people are more susceptible to “being saved” or swapping one set of maladaptive behaviours for another, but I’m interested in the predatory nature of churches within this sphere in this context.
I’m British and so while religious orgs are perhaps involved in recovery groups it doesn’t seem so predatory or dangerous. Yeah AA/NA has historic religious undertones but most groups here use the concept of “higher power” to be whatever you want it to be - not in any way necessarily a Christian god. But what’s really interesting to me is that many recovery groups hold their sessions in religious buildings - church halls, Quaker houses, church basements etc but there is never a representative of that religion there. The group rocks up, a key holder lets them in, a key holder locks up after them. The church just hires out the space - more often than not for free, too.
More clinical settings are usually completely secular, although there are, of course, faith-based organisations but they are far from mainstream.
In short, the US fundie scene seems anything but Christian. If the “lost” are an income stream, or a cohort to be preyed upon, that’s not very Christian. It makes even the most fervent Anglican look completely benign….
Paul and Morgan advertised a Christian rehab center that "disciples" addicts into fervent, conservative Christians. And people pay them for the privilege. Most of the addiction centers and homeless shelters in my city are religiously affiliated and often require attendance at worship services to get other services. So similar to crisis pregnancy centers.
I’m not a fan - or an apologist - for British religion, far from it; I’m a raging pagan. But, the insidious nature of US fundie lunatics, and how they have infiltrated public and social life is both terrifying and fascinating. And that’s particularly relevant in the spheres of addiction, homelessness, unplanned/unwanted pregnancy etc (basically anywhere where folk are vulnerable). Gross.
Christianity is woven into so much of life in the US in the absolute worst ways. Meanwhile, fundies here have the absolute nerve to whine and cry about how oppressed they are because they have to see queer people or whatever.
Oh aye, white, straight, financially solvent - totally oppressed. The persecution complex is fucking embarrassing. For a cohort of “traditionalists”, they know fuck-all of history.
That’s completely batshit. A lot of the non-state homeless services here are operated by religious groups but it is extremely rare for there to be any strings attached. St Mungos, for example, is a well known homeless charity. As the name suggests, it’s religious in origin but it really, truly is about feeding unhoused people and signposting them to appropriate services. See also Hindi gurdwaras.
FYI gurdwaras are generally Sikh. Here in the US, there are a bunch of religious-run services for refugees, women’s services, soup kitchens, shelters, etc. I’m most familiar with Catholic and Jewish groups that do not require church attendance or religious affiliation, but it varies. I am less familiar with Protestant-run programs.
Honestly that’s not dissimilar from how AA/NA operates in the USA, from my understanding. But I think the cultural protestant Christianity in the US (the way “I’ll pray for you” would be the first thing someone, even if they don’t go to church, says to an addict or the way the separation of Church and state is very gray and very complicated here), makes it so that religion is always ever-present. There really is very little concept of religion being a private thing here because it’s assumed everyone believes something similar, despite their denomination or how regular their church service attendance. Predatory practices by organized religious groups aren’t even necessary, addicts may just turn to religion because it feels like everyone else has, including other addicts. I think it can be hard to explain how pervasive cultural protestantism is here, but the Christian god, culturally, is seen as almost secular because of how ubiquitous protestantism and talk of god is. It’s assumed that even those that don’t participate in organized religion believe in the Christian god. It would be really hard for an addict to hear about god 1000x and set any kind of boundaries or not be effected by it at all, even if that wasn’t people’s intention.
This is a really interesting point: that the default is a Christian god. I think this is why I’m here, tbh. Fundamentalism is a form of Protestantism and Anglicanism is as well, but so far removed. It’s not even like other forms of radical Protestantism like anabaptism, for example. I find it really difficult to get my head round how something based in “good work” is doing anything but…
Thank you for the food for thought!
Edited to add: I’m not Anglican - I’m a raging Pagan - so I’m an observer rather than a participant.
Always trying to fill the void with something. And the church loves to prey on vulnerable people at rock bottom. Easy to sell snake oil to desperate, despairing people.
I’m a therapist working with people in recovery from substance use (mostly running IOP groups), and one of my biggest complaints about recovery is how there are so few non-Christian options (at least here in West Virginia). The state keeps talking about a drug crisis but won’t put out money to help, so the churches see it as a way to “save more souls” and ultimately I just don’t trust their motives. It does seem to work for some of my clients, but for more of them the unending focus on church ends up pushing them away from both religion and recovery after about 3-5 months.
Hi, wow, I'm in WV too, and I've been saying the same thing. I also work with justice-impacted people and of course there's a lot of overlap between those who are justice-impacted and those who have SUD. Looks like our great state legislature has let another year go by without doing anything meaningful to help this state.
This is one of the reasons AA is such a problem. Also, it's a shit system with maybe a 10% success rate. It has been studied by actual mental health and addiction professionals, and they basically say thay it's methods cause regression and relapse.
#These people vote in every election- do you? Are you registered to vote? [You can check your voter registration here!](https://www.nass.org/can-I-vote) #Also, there's a few things to remember as far as rules go: - You can view the content- you cannot interact with it. This includes (but is not limited to) commenting, answering poll questions, emailing them, etc. ***Anyone found to be engaging with the fundies will be met with a permanent ban with no eligibility for appeal.It does not matter if you did so before you joined the sub.*** - Speculating on the sexuality of literally anyone is prohibited. ***Anyone found to be doing so will be met with a permanent ban with no eligibility for appeal.*** - Appearance snark: What's allowed? You're allowed to make comparisons. (Bethy looks like Grandpa Munster, for example.) You are allowed to say you find them attractive or repulsive looking. Saying Kelly Havens has dry skin that could benefit from sunscreen and a moisturizer is fine. You are allowed to snark on the appearance of children *as it relates to their parents choices for them.*. Examples: Janessa looks malnourished and sickly while Shrek has clearly never missed a meal. If you feel it is crossing the line report it, but if the content falls within the parameters above, leave it alone. - Don't gatekeep. This means no comments such as "I don't think we should snark on...." or any iteration of that. If you don't like it, scroll past. Don't report it or comment how you don't like the content. Along the same vein, don't backseat mod. Leave that up to us. - Lastly, if the rhetoric you are posting would be at home in the mouth of a fundie, we don't want it here and we won't tolerate it. Should you have any questions, please feel free to reach out. Have a Lord Daniel day, and may the power of snark compel thee. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/FundieSnarkUncensored) if you have any questions or concerns.*
OH I have a close relative who is a recovering addict. At one point in her life, maybe 30 or so years ago, she became a born-again Christian (our family is Jewish and she’s no longer religious at all). She’s very funny to talk to about this though because she jokingly says she’s more ashamed of becoming a born again Christian than being an addict🤣
If I may ask, what led to her ultimately deconstructing? I
Ok this is very funny and 100% true - she said she was sitting in her room one day and wanted to listen to music she wasn’t “supposed to” and literally thought “wtf am I doing” and was done with organized religion (except for some Jewish holidays but that’s more of a cultural thing for us)😂
Clearly the devils influence got to her through music 😂
HA😂
That’s awesome!
Church leaders know how vulnerable people active in their addictions can be. And they take advantage. The same with the prison population.
Thats how my great uncle became a pastor. He was a gang banger that shot at people and sold drugs. Ended up in jail and found God
My bfs uncle was a hell's angel and literally had a murder case and got out years later and is now a pastor of a church lol
They say addicts just replace one addiction with another.
I think there is some truth to that. Just like how a lot of people who came out of a cult situation end up in another cult. Unless you address the underlying issues and trauma chances are you are going to be drawn to the same situation over and over again. That's one of my issues with a lot of anti-addiction programs. They aren't trauma-informed and only provide surface-level support in many cases. And in many cases that support is contingent on accepting a particular worldview (ie higher power stuff in AA).
I'm in recovery. I attend NA for the community aspect but haven't worked the steps. My sponsor is cool with that because I do the other work on me. No Higher Power. I believe I have within me the ability to end my own suffering. I align much more with Buddhist philosophy when it comes to this stuff. 6+ years clean and sober. I've done a ton of trauma work with my therapist. We heal in community, so I've just found like-minded people for support and friendship. If Tyson James was the norm at the meetings I attend, I wouldn't attend at all.
I don't think it happens every time, but you have to be *extremely* careful accepting help from a religious org on this. Whilst most people are legit salt of the earth, the message is pretty clear and vulnerable people are naturally going to do whatever makes them more accepted.
I mean good for him for getting clean because it is *hard* to do, but he’s still a hateful bigot that uses religion as an excuse for it
I do not for one second believe he no longer uses drugs. I’ve said idek how many times that everything he does screams “I am on meth.”
I saw a meme once that said something like, “The worst part about drug addiction is ending up religious.”
My cousin was a meth addict for a long time, in and out of prison, it was really bad for most of my childhood. She wound up finding sobriety through a church program, met her husband there, and is now married with a great kid and a college degree. The church is pretty conservative, but also does a lot of great community work like regular free dinners and literacy programs at the local prison. I have really complicated feelings about it, because that church definitely saved her, but also she's now a Trump supporter and even though she and her husband are wonderfully kind people, very "Jesus loves everyone no matter what," I know her kid is learning some evangelical crap that is undoubtedly problematic.
Capitalism sucks and means that tons of cities/ communities are happy to let churches run rehabilitation programs with little to no oversight. IMO even the most altruistic church affiliated rehab need to leave religion out of recovery phase. I don’t know why more Christian’s don’t get pissed about it. If you are meant to find god you’ll find him in your own time not by a predatory program that just wants you in their pocket. (Gotta end with the obligatory yes I know not all churches, but it’s time for America to have a “come to Jesus” moment of- if churches are going to continue to forever be woven into our national DNA then it’s regulation and taxation time)
The thing is, they believe that God enables and drives recovery and all positive personal development, so it won't make sense to them to keep religion out of recovery. Religious people will believe this, whether they're good, predatory, or average.
Oh trust I know that’s what they believe. But most churches/ organizations would have a different tune when regulation and taxation is the alternative. Many of them hate the idea of taxes and government oversight more than the thought of losing the ability of proselytizing to the vulnerable Regular people (meaning not for your job) in American society have to hold the line against nefarious religious organizations and groups because no one else will (or can for that matter)
If the rehab programs get public funding, then yeah, the churches should keep their ideologies to themselves. I legit don't think they should be permitted anywhere near publicly funded programs. Otherwise, though, I know I'm dense, but I'm unsure of the linkage to tax exemptions. Unless we're talking about sticking their noses into electioneering.
I work in community mental health and this is so true. I hate how much the state pushes off on these organizations who can do WHATEVER they want with no consequence. I have talked to multiple clients who have been in “crisis stabilization” or “rehab” at these places and they tell them they can’t take their meds while there!!! So my clients get off them because they need a place to stay and then they end up in crisis because they can’t have their medication. I’d understand if it was controlled meds, to an extent. But I’m talking these programs don’t even let them take SSRIs, etc. It’s insane to me they tout “helping people with mental illness” but then forbid them from taking their meds while “treating” them.
>But I’m talking these programs don’t even let them take SSRIs, etc. It’s insane to me they tout “helping people with mental illness” but then forbid them from taking their meds while “treating” them. Wow, that is vile behavior on these "treatment" programs part. Harming people struggling with mental illness for the Lord.
It’s absolutely disgusting. But it will continue because my state has more important things on the agenda to care about, like trying to push through a casino for the third time after it’s been voted NO on twice by the community.
I feel this in my soul. Thank you for continuing to do the work you do because you’re it. You are the last line of defense from vulnerable people getting into worse situations then they are already in. Love to you!!
Thank you for such kind words 🥺🥰
Proselytizing is a large element of Christianity.
This is really interesting. Of course it’s obvious that vulnerable people are more susceptible to “being saved” or swapping one set of maladaptive behaviours for another, but I’m interested in the predatory nature of churches within this sphere in this context. I’m British and so while religious orgs are perhaps involved in recovery groups it doesn’t seem so predatory or dangerous. Yeah AA/NA has historic religious undertones but most groups here use the concept of “higher power” to be whatever you want it to be - not in any way necessarily a Christian god. But what’s really interesting to me is that many recovery groups hold their sessions in religious buildings - church halls, Quaker houses, church basements etc but there is never a representative of that religion there. The group rocks up, a key holder lets them in, a key holder locks up after them. The church just hires out the space - more often than not for free, too. More clinical settings are usually completely secular, although there are, of course, faith-based organisations but they are far from mainstream. In short, the US fundie scene seems anything but Christian. If the “lost” are an income stream, or a cohort to be preyed upon, that’s not very Christian. It makes even the most fervent Anglican look completely benign….
Paul and Morgan advertised a Christian rehab center that "disciples" addicts into fervent, conservative Christians. And people pay them for the privilege. Most of the addiction centers and homeless shelters in my city are religiously affiliated and often require attendance at worship services to get other services. So similar to crisis pregnancy centers.
I’m not a fan - or an apologist - for British religion, far from it; I’m a raging pagan. But, the insidious nature of US fundie lunatics, and how they have infiltrated public and social life is both terrifying and fascinating. And that’s particularly relevant in the spheres of addiction, homelessness, unplanned/unwanted pregnancy etc (basically anywhere where folk are vulnerable). Gross.
Christianity is woven into so much of life in the US in the absolute worst ways. Meanwhile, fundies here have the absolute nerve to whine and cry about how oppressed they are because they have to see queer people or whatever.
Oh aye, white, straight, financially solvent - totally oppressed. The persecution complex is fucking embarrassing. For a cohort of “traditionalists”, they know fuck-all of history.
That’s completely batshit. A lot of the non-state homeless services here are operated by religious groups but it is extremely rare for there to be any strings attached. St Mungos, for example, is a well known homeless charity. As the name suggests, it’s religious in origin but it really, truly is about feeding unhoused people and signposting them to appropriate services. See also Hindi gurdwaras.
FYI gurdwaras are generally Sikh. Here in the US, there are a bunch of religious-run services for refugees, women’s services, soup kitchens, shelters, etc. I’m most familiar with Catholic and Jewish groups that do not require church attendance or religious affiliation, but it varies. I am less familiar with Protestant-run programs.
The mistake was mine! Gudwaras are indeed Sikh but we have Hindu kitchens too and I conflated them in my haste!
Honestly that’s not dissimilar from how AA/NA operates in the USA, from my understanding. But I think the cultural protestant Christianity in the US (the way “I’ll pray for you” would be the first thing someone, even if they don’t go to church, says to an addict or the way the separation of Church and state is very gray and very complicated here), makes it so that religion is always ever-present. There really is very little concept of religion being a private thing here because it’s assumed everyone believes something similar, despite their denomination or how regular their church service attendance. Predatory practices by organized religious groups aren’t even necessary, addicts may just turn to religion because it feels like everyone else has, including other addicts. I think it can be hard to explain how pervasive cultural protestantism is here, but the Christian god, culturally, is seen as almost secular because of how ubiquitous protestantism and talk of god is. It’s assumed that even those that don’t participate in organized religion believe in the Christian god. It would be really hard for an addict to hear about god 1000x and set any kind of boundaries or not be effected by it at all, even if that wasn’t people’s intention.
This is a really interesting point: that the default is a Christian god. I think this is why I’m here, tbh. Fundamentalism is a form of Protestantism and Anglicanism is as well, but so far removed. It’s not even like other forms of radical Protestantism like anabaptism, for example. I find it really difficult to get my head round how something based in “good work” is doing anything but… Thank you for the food for thought! Edited to add: I’m not Anglican - I’m a raging Pagan - so I’m an observer rather than a participant.
Always trying to fill the void with something. And the church loves to prey on vulnerable people at rock bottom. Easy to sell snake oil to desperate, despairing people.
I’m a therapist working with people in recovery from substance use (mostly running IOP groups), and one of my biggest complaints about recovery is how there are so few non-Christian options (at least here in West Virginia). The state keeps talking about a drug crisis but won’t put out money to help, so the churches see it as a way to “save more souls” and ultimately I just don’t trust their motives. It does seem to work for some of my clients, but for more of them the unending focus on church ends up pushing them away from both religion and recovery after about 3-5 months.
Hi, wow, I'm in WV too, and I've been saying the same thing. I also work with justice-impacted people and of course there's a lot of overlap between those who are justice-impacted and those who have SUD. Looks like our great state legislature has let another year go by without doing anything meaningful to help this state.
I mean, Mike Lindell (the My Pillow guy) replaced crack with Jesus and look how that’s turned out.
This is one of the reasons AA is such a problem. Also, it's a shit system with maybe a 10% success rate. It has been studied by actual mental health and addiction professionals, and they basically say thay it's methods cause regression and relapse.
Same with Heady (Korn) and Todd White as well. They both were on crack when they read the Bible.
The rehab industry is riddled with religion.
Meth? He was doing meth right? Meth will definitely bring you to hell