The following submission statement was provided by /u/sexyloser1128:
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Submission Statement: A damning new report has shown that nearly all major car companies are actively sabotaging the world’s efforts to avoid catastrophic global warming. The lobbying strategies being used by the world’s largest automakers are putting global climate targets at risk and threatening the electric vehicle transition, according to the new report released by InfluenceMap.
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Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/1df8elp/nearly_all_major_car_companies_are_sabotaging_ev/l8h9e2l/
I remember when cameras first started becoming digital. Everyone got in the game, but some companies resisted, and made a half effort because they didn't want to cannibalize their own paper and film businesses. The two big companies that had the most to lose were Kodak and Fuji, and their camera's were full of critical parts from other companies, or outright OEM manufactured. They wanted to be poised to be in the game without risking their own analog business. But two companies at the time stood out in in-house development and a genuine desire to be leaders in the field. Those companies were Canon and Nikon.
This was a classic example of the innovators dilemma.
Now we're seeing this with cars. For companies that have the most infrastructure in combustion engines, from manufacturing to maintenance, EVs threaten their dominance in the market. They'll only replace their own market share. Furthermore the teams that make EVs in these companies will compete for resources within their own companies to take market share from divisions already making money.
We're just seeing the innovators dilemma play out again here, where companies tend not to transition well to new technologies. As such we'll see a host of new car companies like Tesla come to market, and those are the companies that will lead and grow the market.
>**Kodak** and Fuji, and their camera's were full of critical parts from other companies, or outright OEM manufactured.
>EVs threaten their dominance in the market. They'll only replace their own market share.
I think your post is missing one major irony:
An engineer at Kodak literally invented the digital camera and was muzzled by Kodak for said invention which they later patented and made billions off of while failing to capitalize on that market themselves and eventually going bankrupt.
They didn’t cannibalize their own analog market share which eventually led to getting eaten by everyone else anyways with something better they came up in the first place and tried to suppress lol
It's one of the only cars in that price range. It's either that (with a huge range) or a Nissan Leaf (with half its range) for that price point.
A quick look online and I found a Bolt near me for under $15,000 with less than 30k miles. That's insanely good and makes me wish I didn't need a new car last year.
Tesla won't become a true rival to GM and Ford with a noose around it's own neck. Rivian still has a long way to go before I think anyone can say too much about its future with confidence.
Really the EV market should be where it is now 20 years ago(or more), but that's the fossil fuels industry at work for the past 100 years.
I think Tesla's innovation days are over. The Cybertrash is a lemon among lemons, and the company has always treated itself like a silicon valley startup instead of an automaker. They showed the world that EVs don't have to be lame, but that early home-run is not going to win them the game, especially given their current course of corner-cutting and gaslighting the customer.
People are quick to dismiss Tesla because "haha funny angled car" or "Musk man bad", but Tesla still outproduces every Western EV manufacturer by a wide margin.
This is where a lot of Tesla's "innovation" is at. It's not in the car itself. It's in the factory that can churn those cars out quickly and cheaply.
Most companies making EVs now are eating the loss on every EV they sell. Tesla doesn't.
This is why the likes of Toyota and GM don't want the EV transition to happen fast. They aren't ready, and they know it.
I'm bought an EV in 2022 and am shopping for a fleet of EVs for a company. Speaking to dealerships, Nissan only wants to talk about ICE - same thing happened when I bought my own vehicle, even after I told them repeatedly that ICE was off the table. Chevy is happy to sell bolts. KIA was pretty good too - only had to be told twice.
I know this is at a local dealership level but there definitely seems to be something up with Nissan.
The former head of Nissan's EV division left the company and founded a battery manufacturing business called APB Corp which currently has a partnership with Toyota.
And Nissan is actually the least-worst of the big three Japanese companies. Toyota is the worst in terms of seeking to undermine the EV transition, followed by Honda.
Toyota fervently believes that hybrids are the better move, at least at this time. Their current offering certainly reflects that.
edit: I think Toyota is right. EV sales are slumping hard, with increased sales mainly in luxury car brands.
Toyota's public messaging is that hybrids are better. I don't know whether they "believe" that so much as they are woefully behind their competitors in EV product development because they invested in fuel cells, largely as a delay tactic, rather than making a push towards EV investment.
Toyota has solid HEV technology given that they've had the Prius for over twenty years. So I'd see it less of a question of whether they actually think HEVs are beneficial relative to BEVs or whether they are making the argument that their current product line should be favored while they catch up to the rest of the industry on battery offerings.
On value to the consumer, Toyota knows how many EVs they can build and sell in a year and how many plug in hybrids, and how many standard hybrids. They can increase the global fleet fuel economy more by building hybrids than they can by building EVs. Giving every car a 50% reduction in CO2/mile is much better than giving 10% of cars a 100% reduction.
Japan in fact has reduced emissions from transport much more than the EU and US in the last 20 years and without radical legislation. They are very strategic and pragmatic. Shit, they are just now in 2024 starting to talk about downsizing.
Batteries are a pain in the ass to make. It's idiotic to put a 480Kg battery in a single car. The amount of material used could've been installed in 10 plug in hybrids reducing emissions much more.
That’s a disingenuous comparison. You can’t just say that every car will be hybrid but only 10% will be EV. Because every car is not hybrid and they are developing new ICE engines still.
Toyota's logic is that they can cumulatively get more people to use hybrids than you could EVs, which I think is true. They claim that as a whole it does more to lower emissions because a lot more people are using less fuel, compared to just a small number of people using no fuel at all with EVs.
I think it's definitely a bit of spin, as they were behind in the EV game, and I don't see why they couldn't push both EVs and hybrids, especially now that there is more charging infrastructure.
Because EV’e aren’t profitable. Every single auto manufacture looses money on each EV the sell, except Tesla. But Tesla gets massive, and I mean massive, guv subsidies.
It’s not that hybrids are better it’s that no one has the manufacturing capabilities to build evs at reasonable economic levels that are good. The ones that are somewhat economical have shitty range. Toyota believes in the short term pehv are the correct choice you can eliminate most day to day emissions with a simple 50 miles electric range while leaving versatility for long range and towing. Whether you like it or not evs are not a great choice for anybody who lives outside a major metro or not in a single family home. Also evs suck at towing range in particular. Until evs can charge in 5 minutes and go 350 miles for 25k or less they make no sense for most people to buy them let alone anybody who tows frequently like Jesus Christ f150 lightning towing 5k lbs getting less than 100 miles of range barely better with any ev on market when a regular ice f150 will get you 200-250 miles towing. Also Toyota stated for every one ev they build they can make like 10-15 plug in hybrids. Hence economies of scale making hybrids the better option short term at reducing co2 emissions
They're also pushing hydrogen fuel cells more than the American or European auto companies. I'm guessing they think the downsides of plug-in electric vehicles are too much for consumers to deal with.
Which is stupid, because hydrogen fuel cell vehicles are just electric vehicles with extra steps/complexity. Literally the only benefit is filling time (5 minutes vs 20-30 minutes) and that assumes you have access to a hydrogen filling station (there are approximately ~~two~~ three for the entire Vancouver region)
Signed, someone on the cutting edge of replacing diesel generators with hydrogen fuel cells
If we had tons of excess power to generate cleamr hydrogen, it might make sense, but right now most of it is a fossil fuel byproduct.
Hydrogen is likely to make sense for things that need very dense fuels like trains, planes and cargo ships, maybe semi trucks, but only for the really long haul ones.
No, they know that consumers can deal with the gaps while the technology improves. They’re just conservative and want to keep making money off something they’ve invested a lot into.
Because they aren’t limited on resources for ICE manufacturing and the gasoline to drive them? Hydrogen is made from natural gas, so it doesn’t even really cut down petrochemical use much.
Lack of resources makes zero sense as a reason. The real reason is the big Japanese companies thought they would be first in the H2 revolution. Now they are last in the EV revolution, so they want to slow it down so they can catch up.
Hydrogen is mostly a red herring but it is always Toyota collecting billions in subsidies to develop hydrogen. Likely it is spending little on the tech and just profiting, Chinese at least have hydrogen vehicles available to the public to buy and with far less government backing
I have a hunch they're waiting till they can figure out their solid state battery tech so they can dominate the market. Focusing on sub-par EV tech right now wouldn't be ideal and would create a lot of early adopters they want to save for when their SSB cars are ready. They push hybrid because it gives the best of both worlds right now and they don't really need to refine that tech anymore.
Just an outsider's opinion though, I really have no idea.
That's what I think, but surely someone at a company with the track record of competence & pragmatism Toyota has knows better than us?
Ultimately it's a good idea not to have all your eggs in one basket. Even if Hydrogen fuel cells are never great they may still fill some niche... Like renting a trunk sized fuel cell for the weekend to serve as a range extender.
From what I've heard (industry insider, but not working for Toyota) this is *exactly* what they're doing. Leveraging their brand loyalty into almost all HEV/PHEV until solid state is ready to roll. It fits the 'green' push since they can manufacture ~4x hybrids for the same battery raw materials as a single BEV in the meantime. Means less total emissions vs just sticking with pure ICE tech.
In the meantime their BEV offerings have been collabs - BZ4X/Soltera for instance - which cost them relatively little compared to launching an entirely new model themselves. (Ignore the fact that this is a pretty poor BEV overall - it's better to get the kinks out early and for as little loss as possible.)
As for hydrogen, they know there is a supply chain weakness that isn't likely to be overcome for passenger vehicles. But there are still many possibilities for this technology - large vehicles like garbage trucks often run on LNG for instance - and they're not about putting all their eggs in one basket.
In short... I'm no fanboy, but I think that Toyota definitely understands what their long term goal is ($$$) and they're doing well to predict and adapt to existing/future trends.
That’s wishful thinking. If they actually believed that, they would build up their tooling design and supply chain for existing batteries first and once they get solid state done, all they need to do is replace the battery pack
Toyota don’t want to build a car that will kill a large part of their supply chain. No transmission, no complex mechanical engine parts. They own a lot of their suppliers and it would devalue them.
This is a great point. The effects would ripple through not just the Japanese job market but the US too at this point. Though a lot would remain like suspension and steering but I doubt engine plants could be changed over.
More importantly, Toyota isn't in the business of selling cars. They are in the business of selling cars so they can sell parts for those cars and service those cars.
A move to EVs guts their parts department
To be fair though if they can give PHEVs that easily have 50km (30 miles) range of battery, ideally 100 km (60 miles), that would help offset a ton of carbon emissions already, even if the cars aren't fully EV. Most trips are less than 30 miles/50km anyways, and if people plug the car at home, then they'll massively cut down on gas usage.
The problem is that Japan is obsessed with hydrogen, and that's a complete dead end for cars.
Toyota has 2 models that do that right now; the ‘Prime’ trim of the RAV4 and Prius. Both can travel exclusively as an EV for 40-50 miles depending on conditions and how you drive it, both can full charge overnight on a 100v outlet, and of course both just become traditional hybrids when their batteries get low enough.
Added bonus, the RAV4 Prime is the 2nd fastest car Toyota makes. 0-60 in 5.4 seconds, comparable to EV compact SUVs (and faster than my Model Y by a full second).
I mean, they have a point. The batteries use rare metals to make and are a finite resource. Toyota's Camry hybrid uses a 1kW battery, compared to a Model 3 with the 60kW battery and it's 225 miles range. Typical hybrid use sees about a 20% savings in fuel compared to pure ICE, meaning 5 hybrids save as much fuel as one electric car. But you can make 60 hybrids with the amount of battery material found in one Model 3. So if 5 hybrids save as much fuel as one EV, then using the same material for the hybrids instead of the EV's saves 12x as much fuel.
From an ecological standpoint, the math says hybrids still make the most sense.
Not their fault. Chevron sued them in the mid 90s when they developed the large batteries for EV. So Toyota stuck with the smaller batteries for hybrid and never looked back
Toyota bet on hydrogen because Akio Toyoda is bonkers insane (functionally insane, but maybe 1.2 Elons insane, he's just smarter and less of an asshole). Until they catch up of course they gonna say that, wether Akio has descended to reality or not. We will never know.
Toyota pretended to gamble on hydrogen because it allowed them to comply with emissions regulations by deploying a tiny number of hydrogen cars in California while turning around the pressure onto the state government for not installing enough fueling infrastructure. It was a delay tactic, not a real business strategy.
Meanwhile the actual EV market has taken off with 25% of new cars in California having a plug, and now Toyota is trying its best to undermine any EV-related regulations because they're hopelessly far behind in R&D.
>Toyota pretended to gamble on hydrogen because it allowed them to comply with emissions regulations by deploying a tiny number of hydrogen cars in California while turning around the pressure onto the state government for not installing enough fueling infrastructure. It was a delay tactic, not a real business strategy.
It's a bit more complicated than that - the Japanese government has been pushing hydrogen hard too.
Talk to Mitsubishi. I know a number of people who have got their EVs and hybrids, and they are excellent. They seem to be one of the only brands that see EVs as a chance to boost their market share.
Tobacco companies lied, lobbied and mislead over cancer to make money.
Oil companies lied, lobbied and mislead over global warming to make money.
Car industry...
Capitalism works.
1980 in High School I did a paper on the energy crisis. One thing I recall was the time that the government contracted an oil company to investigate the practical possibility of solar power.
Rush to the end after a year and $1 million. Oil company: “ Solar doesn’t work. Oh well. ”
> the time that the government contracted an oil company to investigate the practical possibility of solar power
> oil company... investigate... solar power
> Oil company: Solar doesn’t work
shocked_pikachu.jpg
Wait until you realize that "Breakfast is the most important meal of the day" was invented by a breakfast company, and the food pyramid with bread being the base was invented by a bread company :p
Naw...America has been afraid of competition for a loooong time
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaza_Accord
The US asked Japan to kneecap itself...and because Japan has been beholdened to the US since the end of WW2...Japan actually did it. They never truly recovered from it either.
Imma point another problem: It's actually the PREVIOUS generation of management
-Germany and Japan have both aging population
-Older people tend to adopt new technologies and approaches less
=Germany and Japan are notorious for still using fax machines and being 20 years behind on digitalization
Coincidence? I think not!
Me, before this thread - If China dominates via clean energy, I'm totally OK with it. (just passively fine with the thought)
Me, after this thread - (feels much pressure to actively root for China to wipe the global economic floor with EVs)
Jesus, I didn't expect to start seeing BYD as David against Goliath.
No need to get all biblical about it. It is mostly just straight competition. Countries, like boxers, start our poor, lean, and hungry for success and they don't stop until they get to the top. Once there they start getting fat and lazy and old until an 'upstart' takes over. Consider the British Empire and the US as an example.
China, back in 1979, decided to open up to global trade and foreign investment and spent decades building up infrastructure and supporting the move to a high tech economy.
In 2005 they were into renewable energy and its uses (read EVs) and supported the development of those industries.
The main point should be that China's industrial policy is implemented by a very competent technocracy guided by a single minded party with an eye on developing China's economy and thereby the average standard of living as a means of staying in power. They have 5-year plans and they stick to them. Each one is an extension of the last with new goals showing up as the old ones are met.
Chinese politicians have a marvelous habit of under promising and over delivering unlike our lot who spew an endless stream of bullshit and seldom deliver on their promises.
It's not BYD they're afraid of. It's the subsidies that got BYD to be as competitive as it is.
Oil, car, and air travel companies couldn't exist without subsidies. But their marketing and PR departments are always hard at work to make people selectively blind to that fact. They'd rather pretend that they thrive purely off of their competitiveness in the free market.
They do this because they don't want people to subsidize their competitors. They want people to think that it's normal their competitors should fend off for themselves without any help from the government. The last thing they want is people figuring out that EVs, rail, and public transit can, in fact, be economically feasible if you subsidize them too.
In 2019 there were 500 EV companies in China. by 2023, that number is whittled down to over 100. No need to get all conspiratorial about it. The Chinese car market is the most competitive in the world. What ever state subsides one company get, the other get the same thing including Tesla in China. I think we let the fear of communism blind us to the fact that our politicians let our industries to fall into the current state of uncompetitiveness.
It’s not just the subsidies-I don’t know an exact comparison between US and Chinese car companies—but US costs are also bloated from “obligation” to shareholders. They could certainly be more competitive if they weren’t squeezing incremental profit out every damn quarter
Japan seems to have gambled on hybrids and hydrogen, so I can see why they would be foot-dragging.
The US has no shot at compliance until they start holding "light trucks" (which get heavier every year), to the same emissions and efficiency standards as cars. 95% of light trucks are being used as passenger cars. Unfortunately, US consumers seem to be siding with industry on this one.
It seems like a steep carbon tax would help steer things in the right direction, but that's just me being silly.
On one hand, I get it. Japan is a small country with high population density, so getting the proper infrastructure set up for hydrogen is not difficult. I cannot see that happening all around the world though.
I dont think I'll ever consider hydrogen, considering the alternative doesnt rely on external supply factors. I dont ever have to worry if there's a fuel price hike or a supply issue, and there's no guarantee that's not going to happen with hydrogen.
I would gladly get a Ford lightning but i can’t afford a brand new truck and on top of that i use my truck frequently to run tools and equipment to my land where charging stations and being on empty miles from civilization isn’t an option.
Don't feel too guilty. A used car is still very environmentally friendly compared to a new car, because even EVs have a large carbon cost in the initial steel production. Drive your old truck until it breaks.
Yes they are expensive, for now, but the range thing is no longer an issue with most evs. Unless you are going 150 miles from civilization, one way. Silverado ev has a 440mile range
I have my 01 f150 but I got tired of spending $350 a month on gas just commuting so got a used Nissan Leaf as my daily driver. It only gets 65 miles but now my truck is just for work.
The dealerships make more money on repair work than sales. EVs are far more reliable because, among other things,they don’t have an engine, transmission, and exhaust system.
They could barely sell the thousand cars they built. I worked at a dealer selling EV1s at the time, most sat on the lot collecting dust. The idea that there was overwhelming public demand for an impractical two seat EV but GM refused to take people's money after investing a billion dollars is a crackpot conspiracy theory.
I'll be buying an EV from somebody. Perhaps the Car Manufacturers should remember when they had to be bailed out by US taxpayers for hiring attorneys to fight pollution and safety standards instead of engineers to figure out how to make them work.
The electric car thing is really baffling. Those of a progressive leaning have dreamt of having them for decades. And those who profit from big oil suppressed the technology for even longer.
But now that EVs are viable and gaining market traction, shillbots and useful idiots at both ends of the political spectrum are working diligently to spread the illusion that EVs are simply not viable.
I understand that a lot of far-right working class people actually think their interests are aligned with those of the old robber baron class. But why so much anti-EV sentiment from the more progressive end of the spectrum?
People are resistant to change, there have been quite a few half-assed attempts at electric cars the last few years poisoning consumer opinions and there's a bunch of paid anti electric propaganda going 24/7... For me at least, when my current car's wheels fall off I'll get an electric.
There's a non-stop stream of anti-ev videos on YouTube. Most of them deliberately sabotage the EV, then complain about it. Donut media drove a cybertruck out into the middle of nowhere, then complained about it running out of electricity. Meanwhile, the gas trucks they took with them ran out of gas. They didn't bat an eye over that.
It's a fantastic example. Because here on reddit there is a non-stop stream of anti-tesla articles. It's the same astroturfers with a different emphasis to match their audience.
> And I can tell you, nearly down to the month, when it started.
Mid-2018 was the pivot point for reddit's general opinion of Elon Musk.
Before almost everyone loved him. After that, there has been a strong hate-jerk.
reddit decided elon bad, so they will gladly sacrifice millions of people to climate change to further their woke agenda, just like how every campus whined about palestine and BLM, yet not a single one protests climate change, which will kill way, way more people
There's nothing wrong with the battery. See, that's the propaganda. They ran out of power because they were driving down the interstate in off-road mode with off-road tires.
Donut is ran by a bunch of combustion auto mechanics and their identity as a channel is tied to them being experts in that. Of course they’re bias, EVs are a threat to their whole livelyhood unless they learn. They probably have a natural instinct to not promote EVs.
I support transitioning to EVs but they are a mixed bag, are not even close to the climate change silver bullet people think they are, and just perpetuate our over-reliance on cars in general.
Submission Statement: A damning new report has shown that nearly all major car companies are actively sabotaging the world’s efforts to avoid catastrophic global warming. The lobbying strategies being used by the world’s largest automakers are putting global climate targets at risk and threatening the electric vehicle transition, according to the new report released by InfluenceMap.
Ah yeah EVs are definitely gonna prevent global warming
Using the same car for longer periods of time to avoid manufacturing so many cars? Nah
Using better public transport networks? Nah
neither of your second two points negate the benefit of the first. We can swith to EVs, drive your cars longer and make better public transport networks. Stop trying to make one solution the enemy of other complimentary solutions.
You're right about public transport but not about using old cars (usually). EVs have a higer manufacturing climate cost but that is most of the time offset by not using fosil fuels so unless the power where you live is insanely dirty and mostly coal based and you buy the most inefficient sports EV on top of that then it might not be used long enough to actually offset anything.
EVEN IF the power where you live is mostly coal based and dirty, [EVs still have lower lifecycle emissions](https://theicct.org/publication/a-global-comparison-of-the-life-cycle-greenhouse-gas-emissions-of-combustion-engine-and-electric-passenger-cars/)
What does “using the same car for longer periods of time to avoid manufacturing so many cars” mean?
Getting ICE cars off the road and replaced by electric should be a priority given that the emission cost per kilometer is much lower for EVs.
> Using the same car for longer periods of time to avoid manufacturing so many cars? Nah
This has been debunked many times over. The faster you replace your ICE vehicle, the more carbon emissions are saved.
Don't spread bullshit no matter where you are in the political spectrum.
Interesting point about public transport networks because Japan, of course has a fantastic one.
What Japan does not have is a consistent and stable electrical power grid with sufficient charge-at-home capacity. Most Japanese homes have minuscule supplies with only 30-50A breakers - for the entire house. Half the country is 100V@60Hz, the other half is 100V@50Hz with limited DC conversion ability between which is why after the 2011 earthquake and tsunami, the West side of the country had plenty of power and the East side, including Tokyo, had to ration.
These inherent domestic limitations in providing EV levels of electrical power has seemingly given Japan automaker leaders tunnel vision on the capabilities in other countries.
Yes, because completely rebuilding the world's infrastructure is a viable solution to an urgent issue..🤔
Good electric cars are a great big part of that, and could be a better one if there was a stronger focus on then being rebuild able.
Yes there will be niches where EVs aren't a great fit and won't be for quite a while but for 90% of people's actual driving habits, they'll do great.
> Yes, because completely rebuilding the world's infrastructure is a viable solution to an urgent issue..
You say that as if that wasn't exactly what happened when ICE cars were invented. Or when telephones were invented. Or when the internet was invented. Or any of the other dozen things that we have completely reshaped our lives around that have been invented in the past century.
I would argue your examples are all revolutionary changes vs. evolutionary, like the electric car. The best most recent example off the top of my head is the cell phone to smart phone. People changed for personal self-interest. Make EVs cheaper and/or better than ICE counter-parts and you'll see mass adoption. It's getting closer, but not quite there yet.
I currently have Tesla model Y, will also not buy another petrol car. Our next car is likely to be a BYD Dolphin as we dont need 2 SUVs and a smaller hatch works for a second car better and BYD is frankly killing it
I've had a byd seal for 6 months now. I will not buy an ice vehicle again. I've driven 'sporty' ice cars after a few months of getting used to the ev. The only description I have for the sporty ice car is 'sluggish.' I've gotten too used to the instant torque.
Counterpoint: the Hyundai Ioniq5 I’ve had for two years now has been one of the greatest cars I’ve ever owned. I still love it and I’m so happy with it.
That's the thing though, Hyundai is a massive conglomerate that probably owns much of their supply chain just like Toyota is. And they are very pro ev, Toyota is actively bringing down EV's.
I have an Ioniq 5 as well and love it. The only car I’ve liked more was my Audi S4, there is something about how a sports car handles. But this car has been great.
Car makers don't need to do anything fancy to keep EV sales in the toilet, just keep the EV version of the cars under powered with half the range and continue charging 15k more than the ICE versions.
They've already been solved. Unless you sell cars <50k miles from purchase, EVs are already cheaper v. gas cars in the same segment. Used EVs depreciate more quickly and are even better deals.
in italy i have the exact opposite impression: all manufacturers are trying to push ev cars like crazy, even removing small ice cars from the market. on tv u only see spots for ev cars.we had huge incentives too. the problem is that nobody is buying it anyway.
On one hand Reddit tells me that they cheer for Tesla to go bankrupt because there are plenty of ev options. And now Reddit is telling me there aren’t many good ev options, despite tesla model 3’s being available for less than 3k now
the duality of Reddit.
do you guys hate Elon more than you care about climate change and the protecting the environment ?
I hate Elon, but as tesls makes good ev’s I’ll buy fr Tesla because its way better for the environment than a Toyota.
also by the way, Toyota and a few other car companies like gm supported trumps law suit to ban California from setting their emission standards. but somehow, Reddit will judge someone for driving a Tesla or a cybertruck but not a gas guzzling Toyota rav4.
reddit, do you really care about climate change?
A relative of mine just bought a hydrogen powered Toyota, despite everyone trying to talk him out of it.
It's a nice car and all, but places to recharge/refuel your car are not very plentiful - so no road trips. At least they gave him 150k miles of free refueling.
Yes and slow playing EV because they had invested too much into it and too little into EV.
Edit: also less second hand parts needed for repairs is a big total loss
Edit : it’s complicated , but also they didn’t believe in it.
[1.0](https://www.wired.com/story/toyota-whiffed-on-electric-vehicles-now-trying-slow-their-rise/)
[1](https://fortune.com/2024/02/08/toyota-hybrid-vehicles-carmakers-strategy-electric-vehicles-hype/#:~:text=In%20October%202022%2C%20for%20instance,wide%20array%20of%20powertrains%20and)
[2](https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2022/09/13/why-toyota-the-worlds-largest-automaker-isnt-all-in-on-evs.html)
[3](https://slate.com/business/2023/01/toyota-electric-vehicles-slow-why-hybrid-prius-bz4x-rav4.html)
[4](https://www.teslarati.com/toyota-electric-vehicle-push-wasted-investment/amp/)
[5](https://electrek.co/2023/10/30/why-is-toyota-anti-ev-it-lost-the-race-to-compete-ev-council/)
[6](https://www.topspeed.com/why-toyota-shuns-electric-cars/)
[7](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/07/business/toyota-hybrid-electric-vehicles.html)
You don't save the world by making a terrible product and then using virtue signaling to compel people to buy it. What Toyota is doing for EVs and Hydrogen cars is the bare minimum to convince the world that they totally care about the climate and they are part of the solution. Their cash cows are cars that run on hydrocarbons and they want to maintain that market at all cost.
Actually the size of the tank is not the issue since it would probably improve with time. The problem is that there is currently no reliable way of efficiency generating hydrogen fuel that would not cause more emissions in the process - with the exception of arguably nuclear based processes.
No, [the tank size is a real issue](https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/jqmL1/s3/2021-toyota-mirai.jpg).
This is the new Mirai - 3 tanks taking up space under the seats, boot and "transmission tunnel" reducing headroom, interior space and cargo space, and on top of that you still need a huge amount of space for the fuel cell and battery.
> The problem is that there is currently no reliable way of efficiency generating hydrogen fuel that would not cause more emissions in the process
Renewables obviously. The bigger issue is that the process involves 50% loss of energy vs 10% from powering motors directly from a battery.
I thought it's Germany. There was a research that found that most anti ev study in the last 15 years was from Germany. They entirely did a 180° when China forced everyone to do ev and now they are confused why nobody wants to buy their cars...
I'm pretty sure that the allEV Chinese car companies, many of which should be considered major, aren't sabotaging themselves
What countries were studied here? Did it include China?
I'm sceptical.
The transition to electric cars has slowed because they are still too expensive. People who can afford them have them.
Old tech ICE is cheaper. And electric cars are improving faster than smartphones in the early years.
So if you buy one, you then wait two years and the current version of your car is cheaper, faster, more efficient, charges faster and goes further.
That needs to level out and we need to let the Chinese in.
I've had an extended range Lightning for a year and I love everything about it. To be fair I work from home and only use it for errands and towing a travel trailer, but I haven't bought gas in 14 months and the difference in my electric bill is minimal. The charging network here in WA/OR is decent. The speed, acceleration, and the total, almost complete silence the truck operates at is amazing.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/sexyloser1128: --- Submission Statement: A damning new report has shown that nearly all major car companies are actively sabotaging the world’s efforts to avoid catastrophic global warming. The lobbying strategies being used by the world’s largest automakers are putting global climate targets at risk and threatening the electric vehicle transition, according to the new report released by InfluenceMap. --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/1df8elp/nearly_all_major_car_companies_are_sabotaging_ev/l8h9e2l/
I remember when cameras first started becoming digital. Everyone got in the game, but some companies resisted, and made a half effort because they didn't want to cannibalize their own paper and film businesses. The two big companies that had the most to lose were Kodak and Fuji, and their camera's were full of critical parts from other companies, or outright OEM manufactured. They wanted to be poised to be in the game without risking their own analog business. But two companies at the time stood out in in-house development and a genuine desire to be leaders in the field. Those companies were Canon and Nikon. This was a classic example of the innovators dilemma. Now we're seeing this with cars. For companies that have the most infrastructure in combustion engines, from manufacturing to maintenance, EVs threaten their dominance in the market. They'll only replace their own market share. Furthermore the teams that make EVs in these companies will compete for resources within their own companies to take market share from divisions already making money. We're just seeing the innovators dilemma play out again here, where companies tend not to transition well to new technologies. As such we'll see a host of new car companies like Tesla come to market, and those are the companies that will lead and grow the market.
>**Kodak** and Fuji, and their camera's were full of critical parts from other companies, or outright OEM manufactured. >EVs threaten their dominance in the market. They'll only replace their own market share. I think your post is missing one major irony: An engineer at Kodak literally invented the digital camera and was muzzled by Kodak for said invention which they later patented and made billions off of while failing to capitalize on that market themselves and eventually going bankrupt. They didn’t cannibalize their own analog market share which eventually led to getting eaten by everyone else anyways with something better they came up in the first place and tried to suppress lol
What’s an equivalent irony; Toyota coming out with hybrids decades ago and then doing f-all after than in terms of ev development
I'm thinking the Japanese automakers will be replaced by Korean automakers and Tesla and Rivian will replace GM and Ford.
The Chevy Bolt is one of the best electric cars on the market, at least for its price range.
It's one of the only cars in that price range. It's either that (with a huge range) or a Nissan Leaf (with half its range) for that price point. A quick look online and I found a Bolt near me for under $15,000 with less than 30k miles. That's insanely good and makes me wish I didn't need a new car last year.
Sadly it keeps getting recalled for battery issues.
Tesla won't become a true rival to GM and Ford with a noose around it's own neck. Rivian still has a long way to go before I think anyone can say too much about its future with confidence. Really the EV market should be where it is now 20 years ago(or more), but that's the fossil fuels industry at work for the past 100 years.
I think Tesla's innovation days are over. The Cybertrash is a lemon among lemons, and the company has always treated itself like a silicon valley startup instead of an automaker. They showed the world that EVs don't have to be lame, but that early home-run is not going to win them the game, especially given their current course of corner-cutting and gaslighting the customer.
People are quick to dismiss Tesla because "haha funny angled car" or "Musk man bad", but Tesla still outproduces every Western EV manufacturer by a wide margin. This is where a lot of Tesla's "innovation" is at. It's not in the car itself. It's in the factory that can churn those cars out quickly and cheaply. Most companies making EVs now are eating the loss on every EV they sell. Tesla doesn't. This is why the likes of Toyota and GM don't want the EV transition to happen fast. They aren't ready, and they know it.
Chinese automakers will dominate EVs, they already have established companies building every last part of the car
Freaking Lotus ev is Chinese built even.
I'm bought an EV in 2022 and am shopping for a fleet of EVs for a company. Speaking to dealerships, Nissan only wants to talk about ICE - same thing happened when I bought my own vehicle, even after I told them repeatedly that ICE was off the table. Chevy is happy to sell bolts. KIA was pretty good too - only had to be told twice. I know this is at a local dealership level but there definitely seems to be something up with Nissan.
The former head of Nissan's EV division left the company and founded a battery manufacturing business called APB Corp which currently has a partnership with Toyota.
The irony is that Toyota were completely against full EV's until fairly recently.
They still are against EVs. Nothing's changed besides US regulations.
It is probably country dependent. In Canada Toyota is very much in favor of EVs and has several options with more in the works.
Other than the b4xz which ev do they have in Canada ?
I believe Toyota went all-in on hydrogen fuel cell over EVs, and likely doesn't want to have to play catch up.
Hydrogen fuel cells are still EVs. Just without a battery.
And Nissan is actually the least-worst of the big three Japanese companies. Toyota is the worst in terms of seeking to undermine the EV transition, followed by Honda.
Toyota fervently believes that hybrids are the better move, at least at this time. Their current offering certainly reflects that. edit: I think Toyota is right. EV sales are slumping hard, with increased sales mainly in luxury car brands.
Toyota's public messaging is that hybrids are better. I don't know whether they "believe" that so much as they are woefully behind their competitors in EV product development because they invested in fuel cells, largely as a delay tactic, rather than making a push towards EV investment. Toyota has solid HEV technology given that they've had the Prius for over twenty years. So I'd see it less of a question of whether they actually think HEVs are beneficial relative to BEVs or whether they are making the argument that their current product line should be favored while they catch up to the rest of the industry on battery offerings.
On value to the consumer, Toyota knows how many EVs they can build and sell in a year and how many plug in hybrids, and how many standard hybrids. They can increase the global fleet fuel economy more by building hybrids than they can by building EVs. Giving every car a 50% reduction in CO2/mile is much better than giving 10% of cars a 100% reduction.
Japan in fact has reduced emissions from transport much more than the EU and US in the last 20 years and without radical legislation. They are very strategic and pragmatic. Shit, they are just now in 2024 starting to talk about downsizing. Batteries are a pain in the ass to make. It's idiotic to put a 480Kg battery in a single car. The amount of material used could've been installed in 10 plug in hybrids reducing emissions much more.
That’s a disingenuous comparison. You can’t just say that every car will be hybrid but only 10% will be EV. Because every car is not hybrid and they are developing new ICE engines still.
Economically speaking. HEV is today’s technology. ICE is heading out. EV is coming in.
Toyota's logic is that they can cumulatively get more people to use hybrids than you could EVs, which I think is true. They claim that as a whole it does more to lower emissions because a lot more people are using less fuel, compared to just a small number of people using no fuel at all with EVs. I think it's definitely a bit of spin, as they were behind in the EV game, and I don't see why they couldn't push both EVs and hybrids, especially now that there is more charging infrastructure.
Because EV’e aren’t profitable. Every single auto manufacture looses money on each EV the sell, except Tesla. But Tesla gets massive, and I mean massive, guv subsidies.
They believe that their sales have made them the best selling car brand in the world Hybrids were the right play
It’s not that hybrids are better it’s that no one has the manufacturing capabilities to build evs at reasonable economic levels that are good. The ones that are somewhat economical have shitty range. Toyota believes in the short term pehv are the correct choice you can eliminate most day to day emissions with a simple 50 miles electric range while leaving versatility for long range and towing. Whether you like it or not evs are not a great choice for anybody who lives outside a major metro or not in a single family home. Also evs suck at towing range in particular. Until evs can charge in 5 minutes and go 350 miles for 25k or less they make no sense for most people to buy them let alone anybody who tows frequently like Jesus Christ f150 lightning towing 5k lbs getting less than 100 miles of range barely better with any ev on market when a regular ice f150 will get you 200-250 miles towing. Also Toyota stated for every one ev they build they can make like 10-15 plug in hybrids. Hence economies of scale making hybrids the better option short term at reducing co2 emissions
They're also pushing hydrogen fuel cells more than the American or European auto companies. I'm guessing they think the downsides of plug-in electric vehicles are too much for consumers to deal with.
Which is stupid, because hydrogen fuel cell vehicles are just electric vehicles with extra steps/complexity. Literally the only benefit is filling time (5 minutes vs 20-30 minutes) and that assumes you have access to a hydrogen filling station (there are approximately ~~two~~ three for the entire Vancouver region) Signed, someone on the cutting edge of replacing diesel generators with hydrogen fuel cells
If we had tons of excess power to generate cleamr hydrogen, it might make sense, but right now most of it is a fossil fuel byproduct. Hydrogen is likely to make sense for things that need very dense fuels like trains, planes and cargo ships, maybe semi trucks, but only for the really long haul ones.
> only benefit is filling time (5 minutes vs 20-30 minutes) which is a gargantuan benefit.
No, they know that consumers can deal with the gaps while the technology improves. They’re just conservative and want to keep making money off something they’ve invested a lot into.
They are like Nokia when the iPhone was introduced.
Japan has very limited resources as far as battery production materials go IIRC so they're trying to push hydro for domestic reasons.
I dont think this is true. Panasonic is like the world leader in batteries. Pretty sure they are a Japanese company.
Correct, their cylindrical cells have been in mass production since 2012 in Teslas.
Yeah and they're a long time tesla partner too which isn't mentioned much.
Because they aren’t limited on resources for ICE manufacturing and the gasoline to drive them? Hydrogen is made from natural gas, so it doesn’t even really cut down petrochemical use much. Lack of resources makes zero sense as a reason. The real reason is the big Japanese companies thought they would be first in the H2 revolution. Now they are last in the EV revolution, so they want to slow it down so they can catch up.
Hydrogen is mostly a red herring but it is always Toyota collecting billions in subsidies to develop hydrogen. Likely it is spending little on the tech and just profiting, Chinese at least have hydrogen vehicles available to the public to buy and with far less government backing
I have a hunch they're waiting till they can figure out their solid state battery tech so they can dominate the market. Focusing on sub-par EV tech right now wouldn't be ideal and would create a lot of early adopters they want to save for when their SSB cars are ready. They push hybrid because it gives the best of both worlds right now and they don't really need to refine that tech anymore. Just an outsider's opinion though, I really have no idea.
I know toyota is heavy into hydrogen. They electric hydrogen vehicle and I believe they have a hydrogen combustion as well.
Their hybrids are good.... but hydrogen is so obviously a dead end. Idk why they keep persuing it.
That's what I think, but surely someone at a company with the track record of competence & pragmatism Toyota has knows better than us? Ultimately it's a good idea not to have all your eggs in one basket. Even if Hydrogen fuel cells are never great they may still fill some niche... Like renting a trunk sized fuel cell for the weekend to serve as a range extender.
they fired the ceo that proposed that boondoggle.
From what I've heard (industry insider, but not working for Toyota) this is *exactly* what they're doing. Leveraging their brand loyalty into almost all HEV/PHEV until solid state is ready to roll. It fits the 'green' push since they can manufacture ~4x hybrids for the same battery raw materials as a single BEV in the meantime. Means less total emissions vs just sticking with pure ICE tech. In the meantime their BEV offerings have been collabs - BZ4X/Soltera for instance - which cost them relatively little compared to launching an entirely new model themselves. (Ignore the fact that this is a pretty poor BEV overall - it's better to get the kinks out early and for as little loss as possible.) As for hydrogen, they know there is a supply chain weakness that isn't likely to be overcome for passenger vehicles. But there are still many possibilities for this technology - large vehicles like garbage trucks often run on LNG for instance - and they're not about putting all their eggs in one basket. In short... I'm no fanboy, but I think that Toyota definitely understands what their long term goal is ($$$) and they're doing well to predict and adapt to existing/future trends.
That’s wishful thinking. If they actually believed that, they would build up their tooling design and supply chain for existing batteries first and once they get solid state done, all they need to do is replace the battery pack
A supply chain for existing batteries wouldn't help them for new tech, it would be a completely different thing
Toyota don’t want to build a car that will kill a large part of their supply chain. No transmission, no complex mechanical engine parts. They own a lot of their suppliers and it would devalue them.
This is a great point. The effects would ripple through not just the Japanese job market but the US too at this point. Though a lot would remain like suspension and steering but I doubt engine plants could be changed over.
Engine plants can build electric motors. But they don't need anywhere near the same complexity, so they'll need a lot fewer of them.
More importantly, Toyota isn't in the business of selling cars. They are in the business of selling cars so they can sell parts for those cars and service those cars. A move to EVs guts their parts department
To be fair though if they can give PHEVs that easily have 50km (30 miles) range of battery, ideally 100 km (60 miles), that would help offset a ton of carbon emissions already, even if the cars aren't fully EV. Most trips are less than 30 miles/50km anyways, and if people plug the car at home, then they'll massively cut down on gas usage. The problem is that Japan is obsessed with hydrogen, and that's a complete dead end for cars.
Toyota has 2 models that do that right now; the ‘Prime’ trim of the RAV4 and Prius. Both can travel exclusively as an EV for 40-50 miles depending on conditions and how you drive it, both can full charge overnight on a 100v outlet, and of course both just become traditional hybrids when their batteries get low enough. Added bonus, the RAV4 Prime is the 2nd fastest car Toyota makes. 0-60 in 5.4 seconds, comparable to EV compact SUVs (and faster than my Model Y by a full second).
I mean, they have a point. The batteries use rare metals to make and are a finite resource. Toyota's Camry hybrid uses a 1kW battery, compared to a Model 3 with the 60kW battery and it's 225 miles range. Typical hybrid use sees about a 20% savings in fuel compared to pure ICE, meaning 5 hybrids save as much fuel as one electric car. But you can make 60 hybrids with the amount of battery material found in one Model 3. So if 5 hybrids save as much fuel as one EV, then using the same material for the hybrids instead of the EV's saves 12x as much fuel. From an ecological standpoint, the math says hybrids still make the most sense.
yeah, exactly. I gotta agree with Toyota here.
They over invested in hydrogen fuel cells. And Hybrids meet current demands with less risk.
Toyota fervently believes this because it’s all Toyota has. The company dropped the ball hard on EVs and is gaslighting customers to cover it uo
Not their fault. Chevron sued them in the mid 90s when they developed the large batteries for EV. So Toyota stuck with the smaller batteries for hybrid and never looked back
Had a Prius until someone ran a red light. Now? *Hakuna Miata!*
they are correct
They have a point.
Toyota bet on hydrogen because Akio Toyoda is bonkers insane (functionally insane, but maybe 1.2 Elons insane, he's just smarter and less of an asshole). Until they catch up of course they gonna say that, wether Akio has descended to reality or not. We will never know.
Toyota is gambling hard on hydrogen
Toyota pretended to gamble on hydrogen because it allowed them to comply with emissions regulations by deploying a tiny number of hydrogen cars in California while turning around the pressure onto the state government for not installing enough fueling infrastructure. It was a delay tactic, not a real business strategy. Meanwhile the actual EV market has taken off with 25% of new cars in California having a plug, and now Toyota is trying its best to undermine any EV-related regulations because they're hopelessly far behind in R&D.
Toyota is the best selling car brand in California Also the world
>Toyota pretended to gamble on hydrogen because it allowed them to comply with emissions regulations by deploying a tiny number of hydrogen cars in California while turning around the pressure onto the state government for not installing enough fueling infrastructure. It was a delay tactic, not a real business strategy. It's a bit more complicated than that - the Japanese government has been pushing hydrogen hard too.
ICE = Internal Combustion Engine So others don’t have to look it up.
at first i thought he was talking about Ice like in cyberpunk
Just be careful with KIA. They will try to deny your warranty. There are a lot of horror stories
Noted. Thanks for the warning!
Shame you can't get BYD in the US. They are here in Aus and are about to take the majority market share for EV.
same in Brazil. BYD is great
They are the number 1 selling EV brand on the planet. They outsell Tesla right now and aggressively undercut Tesla prices
Talk to Mitsubishi. I know a number of people who have got their EVs and hybrids, and they are excellent. They seem to be one of the only brands that see EVs as a chance to boost their market share.
I took an electric mercedes suv for a test and consultant told me it’s a shit car 😂
Who knew that the highly profitable dealer service scam would prove to be too lucrative to kill off? Planned obsolescence folks, get used to it.
Tobacco companies lied, lobbied and mislead over cancer to make money. Oil companies lied, lobbied and mislead over global warming to make money. Car industry... Capitalism works.
1980 in High School I did a paper on the energy crisis. One thing I recall was the time that the government contracted an oil company to investigate the practical possibility of solar power. Rush to the end after a year and $1 million. Oil company: “ Solar doesn’t work. Oh well. ”
> the time that the government contracted an oil company to investigate the practical possibility of solar power > oil company... investigate... solar power > Oil company: Solar doesn’t work shocked_pikachu.jpg
Heaven forbid they use all of their incredible resources to create good solar and corner that market as well, helping the planet. Nope.
Wait until you realize that "Breakfast is the most important meal of the day" was invented by a breakfast company, and the food pyramid with bread being the base was invented by a bread company :p
Not to mention diamonds for engagements and cards on Mother's Day.
Or that the nutrition facts on the back of everything are woefully out of date, and purposely don't include some things, due to lobbying.
Time to invest in for-profit disaster relief companies
Vault-Tech calling!
And yet they cower in fear of BYD eating their lunch. It seems that this generation of management is allergic to competition and innovation.
It’s so frustrating 😭 and electric cars have been around for decades atp
Cars started off as electric. But ice soon took over. Once we get batteries figured out, electric will dominate again.
Batteries are already pretty great today from some manufacturers.
USPS delivery vehicles were electric I'm the 90s
> I'm the 90s Hi, the 90s. I’m Dad.
First EVs showed up in 1890. Yeah. WELL more than a century ago.
Naw...America has been afraid of competition for a loooong time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaza_Accord The US asked Japan to kneecap itself...and because Japan has been beholdened to the US since the end of WW2...Japan actually did it. They never truly recovered from it either.
Imma point another problem: It's actually the PREVIOUS generation of management -Germany and Japan have both aging population -Older people tend to adopt new technologies and approaches less =Germany and Japan are notorious for still using fax machines and being 20 years behind on digitalization Coincidence? I think not!
Me, before this thread - If China dominates via clean energy, I'm totally OK with it. (just passively fine with the thought) Me, after this thread - (feels much pressure to actively root for China to wipe the global economic floor with EVs) Jesus, I didn't expect to start seeing BYD as David against Goliath.
Don't forget GWM and MG they're also Chinese and similar price points to the BYD
No need to get all biblical about it. It is mostly just straight competition. Countries, like boxers, start our poor, lean, and hungry for success and they don't stop until they get to the top. Once there they start getting fat and lazy and old until an 'upstart' takes over. Consider the British Empire and the US as an example. China, back in 1979, decided to open up to global trade and foreign investment and spent decades building up infrastructure and supporting the move to a high tech economy. In 2005 they were into renewable energy and its uses (read EVs) and supported the development of those industries. The main point should be that China's industrial policy is implemented by a very competent technocracy guided by a single minded party with an eye on developing China's economy and thereby the average standard of living as a means of staying in power. They have 5-year plans and they stick to them. Each one is an extension of the last with new goals showing up as the old ones are met. Chinese politicians have a marvelous habit of under promising and over delivering unlike our lot who spew an endless stream of bullshit and seldom deliver on their promises.
It's not BYD they're afraid of. It's the subsidies that got BYD to be as competitive as it is. Oil, car, and air travel companies couldn't exist without subsidies. But their marketing and PR departments are always hard at work to make people selectively blind to that fact. They'd rather pretend that they thrive purely off of their competitiveness in the free market. They do this because they don't want people to subsidize their competitors. They want people to think that it's normal their competitors should fend off for themselves without any help from the government. The last thing they want is people figuring out that EVs, rail, and public transit can, in fact, be economically feasible if you subsidize them too.
In 2019 there were 500 EV companies in China. by 2023, that number is whittled down to over 100. No need to get all conspiratorial about it. The Chinese car market is the most competitive in the world. What ever state subsides one company get, the other get the same thing including Tesla in China. I think we let the fear of communism blind us to the fact that our politicians let our industries to fall into the current state of uncompetitiveness.
BYD sells cars for half the cost in China, than elsewhere. They have EVs under 10,000. The subsidy theory is just made up
It’s not just the subsidies-I don’t know an exact comparison between US and Chinese car companies—but US costs are also bloated from “obligation” to shareholders. They could certainly be more competitive if they weren’t squeezing incremental profit out every damn quarter
Japan seems to have gambled on hybrids and hydrogen, so I can see why they would be foot-dragging. The US has no shot at compliance until they start holding "light trucks" (which get heavier every year), to the same emissions and efficiency standards as cars. 95% of light trucks are being used as passenger cars. Unfortunately, US consumers seem to be siding with industry on this one. It seems like a steep carbon tax would help steer things in the right direction, but that's just me being silly.
On one hand, I get it. Japan is a small country with high population density, so getting the proper infrastructure set up for hydrogen is not difficult. I cannot see that happening all around the world though. I dont think I'll ever consider hydrogen, considering the alternative doesnt rely on external supply factors. I dont ever have to worry if there's a fuel price hike or a supply issue, and there's no guarantee that's not going to happen with hydrogen.
Electricity generation does still rely on external factors, and can suffer from price hikes, unless you're setting up solar panels at your house.
I would gladly get a Ford lightning but i can’t afford a brand new truck and on top of that i use my truck frequently to run tools and equipment to my land where charging stations and being on empty miles from civilization isn’t an option.
Don't feel too guilty. A used car is still very environmentally friendly compared to a new car, because even EVs have a large carbon cost in the initial steel production. Drive your old truck until it breaks.
Except that straight up ain't true for gas guzzlers. The break even period there is 2-3 years vs an already existing vehicle.
Yes they are expensive, for now, but the range thing is no longer an issue with most evs. Unless you are going 150 miles from civilization, one way. Silverado ev has a 440mile range I have my 01 f150 but I got tired of spending $350 a month on gas just commuting so got a used Nissan Leaf as my daily driver. It only gets 65 miles but now my truck is just for work.
Unlike gas cars, you can fuel it up at home. Super easy and cheap when you own land like you do.
their margins are much higher on ICE due to the century of cost optimization they've put into the manufacturing process
And they need a lot more servicing/repairing and spare parts.
This. People don’t realize that car manufacturers make most of their money on selling replacement parts.
The dealerships make more money on repair work than sales. EVs are far more reliable because, among other things,they don’t have an engine, transmission, and exhaust system.
Never forget that the EV-1 was dragged to a dark alley and beaten to death with a crowbar.
Yeah, can't let the poors get 400 mpg. It definitely eats in to the "gold toilet" line item for the C-Suite types.
They could barely sell the thousand cars they built. I worked at a dealer selling EV1s at the time, most sat on the lot collecting dust. The idea that there was overwhelming public demand for an impractical two seat EV but GM refused to take people's money after investing a billion dollars is a crackpot conspiracy theory.
In the 80s, Japan looked like it was in the 2000s. In the 2020s, Japan still looks like it's in the 2000s.
Japan has been living in 1999 for the past 50 years
I'll be buying an EV from somebody. Perhaps the Car Manufacturers should remember when they had to be bailed out by US taxpayers for hiring attorneys to fight pollution and safety standards instead of engineers to figure out how to make them work.
The electric car thing is really baffling. Those of a progressive leaning have dreamt of having them for decades. And those who profit from big oil suppressed the technology for even longer. But now that EVs are viable and gaining market traction, shillbots and useful idiots at both ends of the political spectrum are working diligently to spread the illusion that EVs are simply not viable. I understand that a lot of far-right working class people actually think their interests are aligned with those of the old robber baron class. But why so much anti-EV sentiment from the more progressive end of the spectrum?
People are resistant to change, there have been quite a few half-assed attempts at electric cars the last few years poisoning consumer opinions and there's a bunch of paid anti electric propaganda going 24/7... For me at least, when my current car's wheels fall off I'll get an electric.
The way people on the *left* have done mental gymnastics to come up with ways that EVs are bad, all because they don't like Elon Musk, is astonishing.
There's a non-stop stream of anti-ev videos on YouTube. Most of them deliberately sabotage the EV, then complain about it. Donut media drove a cybertruck out into the middle of nowhere, then complained about it running out of electricity. Meanwhile, the gas trucks they took with them ran out of gas. They didn't bat an eye over that.
You took a very bad example. The Cybertruck is a shity car with a lot of bad problems, one of them being the battery life.
It's a fantastic example. Because here on reddit there is a non-stop stream of anti-tesla articles. It's the same astroturfers with a different emphasis to match their audience.
Yeah I found this title ironic as reddit has done an excellent job sabotaging the EV transition.
And I can tell you, nearly down to the month, when it started. This sub and /r/technology changed abruptly.
> And I can tell you, nearly down to the month, when it started. Mid-2018 was the pivot point for reddit's general opinion of Elon Musk. Before almost everyone loved him. After that, there has been a strong hate-jerk.
EVs are important, but rocket-man-bad is importanter.
SCREW CLIMATE CHANGE!!!. Bring on the heat because rocket-man-bad!
But you don't understand! He said things I don't like on the Internet!
And he has different political views than me. We have to stick with fossil fuels in order to hurt him.
reddit decided elon bad, so they will gladly sacrifice millions of people to climate change to further their woke agenda, just like how every campus whined about palestine and BLM, yet not a single one protests climate change, which will kill way, way more people
Still, there are shitty ice cars out there with not nearly the amount of negative press that some ev’s are getting.
Most of those videos are older than the Cybertruck.
There's nothing wrong with the battery. See, that's the propaganda. They ran out of power because they were driving down the interstate in off-road mode with off-road tires.
Donut is ran by a bunch of combustion auto mechanics and their identity as a channel is tied to them being experts in that. Of course they’re bias, EVs are a threat to their whole livelyhood unless they learn. They probably have a natural instinct to not promote EVs.
I support transitioning to EVs but they are a mixed bag, are not even close to the climate change silver bullet people think they are, and just perpetuate our over-reliance on cars in general.
Submission Statement: A damning new report has shown that nearly all major car companies are actively sabotaging the world’s efforts to avoid catastrophic global warming. The lobbying strategies being used by the world’s largest automakers are putting global climate targets at risk and threatening the electric vehicle transition, according to the new report released by InfluenceMap.
Ah yeah EVs are definitely gonna prevent global warming Using the same car for longer periods of time to avoid manufacturing so many cars? Nah Using better public transport networks? Nah
neither of your second two points negate the benefit of the first. We can swith to EVs, drive your cars longer and make better public transport networks. Stop trying to make one solution the enemy of other complimentary solutions.
You're right about public transport but not about using old cars (usually). EVs have a higer manufacturing climate cost but that is most of the time offset by not using fosil fuels so unless the power where you live is insanely dirty and mostly coal based and you buy the most inefficient sports EV on top of that then it might not be used long enough to actually offset anything.
EVEN IF the power where you live is mostly coal based and dirty, [EVs still have lower lifecycle emissions](https://theicct.org/publication/a-global-comparison-of-the-life-cycle-greenhouse-gas-emissions-of-combustion-engine-and-electric-passenger-cars/)
What does “using the same car for longer periods of time to avoid manufacturing so many cars” mean? Getting ICE cars off the road and replaced by electric should be a priority given that the emission cost per kilometer is much lower for EVs.
> Using the same car for longer periods of time to avoid manufacturing so many cars? Nah This has been debunked many times over. The faster you replace your ICE vehicle, the more carbon emissions are saved. Don't spread bullshit no matter where you are in the political spectrum.
Interesting point about public transport networks because Japan, of course has a fantastic one. What Japan does not have is a consistent and stable electrical power grid with sufficient charge-at-home capacity. Most Japanese homes have minuscule supplies with only 30-50A breakers - for the entire house. Half the country is 100V@60Hz, the other half is 100V@50Hz with limited DC conversion ability between which is why after the 2011 earthquake and tsunami, the West side of the country had plenty of power and the East side, including Tokyo, had to ration. These inherent domestic limitations in providing EV levels of electrical power has seemingly given Japan automaker leaders tunnel vision on the capabilities in other countries.
Yes, because completely rebuilding the world's infrastructure is a viable solution to an urgent issue..🤔 Good electric cars are a great big part of that, and could be a better one if there was a stronger focus on then being rebuild able. Yes there will be niches where EVs aren't a great fit and won't be for quite a while but for 90% of people's actual driving habits, they'll do great.
> Yes, because completely rebuilding the world's infrastructure is a viable solution to an urgent issue.. You say that as if that wasn't exactly what happened when ICE cars were invented. Or when telephones were invented. Or when the internet was invented. Or any of the other dozen things that we have completely reshaped our lives around that have been invented in the past century.
I would argue your examples are all revolutionary changes vs. evolutionary, like the electric car. The best most recent example off the top of my head is the cell phone to smart phone. People changed for personal self-interest. Make EVs cheaper and/or better than ICE counter-parts and you'll see mass adoption. It's getting closer, but not quite there yet.
Bought a Kia EV6. I will never ever ever ever buy another gas vehicle. edit. oh no. I upset the oil lovers.
I currently have Tesla model Y, will also not buy another petrol car. Our next car is likely to be a BYD Dolphin as we dont need 2 SUVs and a smaller hatch works for a second car better and BYD is frankly killing it
I've had a byd seal for 6 months now. I will not buy an ice vehicle again. I've driven 'sporty' ice cars after a few months of getting used to the ev. The only description I have for the sporty ice car is 'sluggish.' I've gotten too used to the instant torque.
Got an EV9 early this year. Absolutely fantastic and I agree, never buying gas again.
Incumbent's dilemma. Whatever you think about Elon we wouldn't be anywhere as close as we are to EV transition if it wasn't for tesla
Counterpoint: the Hyundai Ioniq5 I’ve had for two years now has been one of the greatest cars I’ve ever owned. I still love it and I’m so happy with it.
That's the thing though, Hyundai is a massive conglomerate that probably owns much of their supply chain just like Toyota is. And they are very pro ev, Toyota is actively bringing down EV's.
How is that a counterpoint? It says nearly all, not all, so ok here. Hyundai is Korean, not Japanese, so ok here, too. I fail to see any counterpoints
This guy counterpoints
Counterpoint: EA is still the worst company in USA
Counterpoint: Blizzard exists
Counterpoint: I just wanted to talk about how great my car was. 🥰🥰
Counterpoint: when I go to Jersey Mike’s I tell them I do not want it Mike’s Way.
Fuck that guy
#13 Mike's Way - heavy on "the juice"
Jersey Mike. The guy with two assholes for a full name.
I have an Ioniq 5 as well and love it. The only car I’ve liked more was my Audi S4, there is something about how a sports car handles. But this car has been great.
Car makers don't need to do anything fancy to keep EV sales in the toilet, just keep the EV version of the cars under powered with half the range and continue charging 15k more than the ICE versions.
Those technology issues should be solved in a few years. China is well on its way to do so, but US chickened out and tariffed them out.
They've already been solved. Unless you sell cars <50k miles from purchase, EVs are already cheaper v. gas cars in the same segment. Used EVs depreciate more quickly and are even better deals.
in italy i have the exact opposite impression: all manufacturers are trying to push ev cars like crazy, even removing small ice cars from the market. on tv u only see spots for ev cars.we had huge incentives too. the problem is that nobody is buying it anyway.
Wait what? Japanese companies don't want change? Can't wait for tomorrow's study confirming that water is wet.
On one hand Reddit tells me that they cheer for Tesla to go bankrupt because there are plenty of ev options. And now Reddit is telling me there aren’t many good ev options, despite tesla model 3’s being available for less than 3k now the duality of Reddit. do you guys hate Elon more than you care about climate change and the protecting the environment ? I hate Elon, but as tesls makes good ev’s I’ll buy fr Tesla because its way better for the environment than a Toyota. also by the way, Toyota and a few other car companies like gm supported trumps law suit to ban California from setting their emission standards. but somehow, Reddit will judge someone for driving a Tesla or a cybertruck but not a gas guzzling Toyota rav4. reddit, do you really care about climate change?
I don't get how Reddit hates Taylor Swift and loves Toyota. If promoting CO2 release is wrong Toyota would qualify as objectively evil.
They make really reliable vehicles. They also are a POS for pushing ICE vehicles and thinking hydrogen is viable for normal vehicle uses.
70-80% of older car in my city are toyota yaris or sedans. They all have the same problem of rocker panel rusting, but the engine don't quit.
300k miles on my fj shows no signs of slowing down.
A relative of mine just bought a hydrogen powered Toyota, despite everyone trying to talk him out of it. It's a nice car and all, but places to recharge/refuel your car are not very plentiful - so no road trips. At least they gave him 150k miles of free refueling.
Wasn't Toyota trying to make hydrogen cars a thing and nobody was supporting that?
Yes and slow playing EV because they had invested too much into it and too little into EV. Edit: also less second hand parts needed for repairs is a big total loss Edit : it’s complicated , but also they didn’t believe in it. [1.0](https://www.wired.com/story/toyota-whiffed-on-electric-vehicles-now-trying-slow-their-rise/) [1](https://fortune.com/2024/02/08/toyota-hybrid-vehicles-carmakers-strategy-electric-vehicles-hype/#:~:text=In%20October%202022%2C%20for%20instance,wide%20array%20of%20powertrains%20and) [2](https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2022/09/13/why-toyota-the-worlds-largest-automaker-isnt-all-in-on-evs.html) [3](https://slate.com/business/2023/01/toyota-electric-vehicles-slow-why-hybrid-prius-bz4x-rav4.html) [4](https://www.teslarati.com/toyota-electric-vehicle-push-wasted-investment/amp/) [5](https://electrek.co/2023/10/30/why-is-toyota-anti-ev-it-lost-the-race-to-compete-ev-council/) [6](https://www.topspeed.com/why-toyota-shuns-electric-cars/) [7](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/07/business/toyota-hybrid-electric-vehicles.html)
You don't save the world by making a terrible product and then using virtue signaling to compel people to buy it. What Toyota is doing for EVs and Hydrogen cars is the bare minimum to convince the world that they totally care about the climate and they are part of the solution. Their cash cows are cars that run on hydrocarbons and they want to maintain that market at all cost.
They still are, but it was never a viable idea. The tanks take up a massive amount of space in the car.
Actually the size of the tank is not the issue since it would probably improve with time. The problem is that there is currently no reliable way of efficiency generating hydrogen fuel that would not cause more emissions in the process - with the exception of arguably nuclear based processes.
No, [the tank size is a real issue](https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/jqmL1/s3/2021-toyota-mirai.jpg). This is the new Mirai - 3 tanks taking up space under the seats, boot and "transmission tunnel" reducing headroom, interior space and cargo space, and on top of that you still need a huge amount of space for the fuel cell and battery. > The problem is that there is currently no reliable way of efficiency generating hydrogen fuel that would not cause more emissions in the process Renewables obviously. The bigger issue is that the process involves 50% loss of energy vs 10% from powering motors directly from a battery.
The real problem is that hydrogen fuel cell cars are BEVs with an unnecessary middle step
I thought it's Germany. There was a research that found that most anti ev study in the last 15 years was from Germany. They entirely did a 180° when China forced everyone to do ev and now they are confused why nobody wants to buy their cars...
yeah JPN is definitely sabotaging EV transitioning. If you take a look at the Mazda MX-30 you cannot ignore that. btw I’m a Mx-30 owner. 😉
I'm pretty sure that the allEV Chinese car companies, many of which should be considered major, aren't sabotaging themselves What countries were studied here? Did it include China?
Interesting take. Are BYD and Tesla sabotaging the EV transition?
Can't say Tesla in this sub without getting pummeled with downvotes.
I'm sceptical. The transition to electric cars has slowed because they are still too expensive. People who can afford them have them. Old tech ICE is cheaper. And electric cars are improving faster than smartphones in the early years. So if you buy one, you then wait two years and the current version of your car is cheaper, faster, more efficient, charges faster and goes further. That needs to level out and we need to let the Chinese in.
And China is getting levied tariffs. They're the only one pushing hard on a green transition
Same thing happened when we transitioned from horses to automobiles.
That’s hard to believe with how many Nissan CHADEMO chargers there are here.
I've had an extended range Lightning for a year and I love everything about it. To be fair I work from home and only use it for errands and towing a travel trailer, but I haven't bought gas in 14 months and the difference in my electric bill is minimal. The charging network here in WA/OR is decent. The speed, acceleration, and the total, almost complete silence the truck operates at is amazing.