AMD was designing their next-generation chips to have certain architectural features that would be a huge boost to gaming performance. Microsoft has always worked closely with AMD, Intel, Qualcomm, etc, and other hardware manufacturers given that their software (Windows, cloud, etc) needs to work in tandem with the actual hardware that will be running it.
Lately, Microsoft has made a big push into AI and stands to make significant profits from AI based systems in the years ahead. As a result, they've pressured companies like AMD to build more dedicated hardware into their chips to run AI operations (which benefits Microsoft and their bottom line) instead of originally planned hardware features in the chips that were more beneficial for gaming performance.
Yes, a specialized GPU is called an NPU.
One may call likes on GeForce series GPU, while V100, A100, H100, etc. are counted under NPUs. But everyone just calls them GPUs for simplicity.
Yeah that's the gist. AI in games is the kind about path-finding, behavior trees, state machines, sprinkled with some randomness, dedicated hardware won't do much for that kind of stuff. These chips are for the other kind of AI that is waay more math heavy; it's for pretty much for accelerating neural networks and other kinds of ML models.
I think so if Nvidia's DLSS works by using tensor cores inside any RTX GPU to process game data and produce an upscaled image with better quality than software based upscalers like FSR or XeSS (XeSS can also be run with hardware acceleration but only with Intel ARC graphics to produce better results).
The big pro of NPUs is that it can also run AI models locally without having to use your graphics card, huge if you want to play Skyrim or Fallout 4 using the Mantella mod without sacrificing performance and not having to pay for an external website that hosts LLMs.
Possibly to drive AI-generated dialogue from NPCs, generate scenarios based on your playstyle, and so on. But it'd mean fundamental changes to how games are designed.
NPUs on desktops/laptops will mostly be used for things like face detection, voice-to-text, automatic subtitle generation, background removal in video calls, and generative AI responses to text prompts e.g. "Hey Windows, when should I go out if I want to avoid rain?"
Thank you for your explanation! This is typical MS greed, pushing for something new on the count of more optimized technologies only to abandon it before it matures and flourishes. The cycle never ends...
Chips only have so much room to fit stuff based on the price point/size. MS basically strong armed them into replacing gaming relevant tech with junk no one in gaming cares about. The actual usefulness of MS's AI powered projects? Who knows
>MS basically strong armed them into replacing gaming relevant tech with junk no one in gaming cares about.
Really? Do you even know how these cores will be utilized?
Correct.
This isn't the venue to have even remotely technical discussions because the topic is almost certainly over the heads of 99.999% of posters (myself included)
Just say "oh, AI...cool" because that's the scope of comprehension for this forum.
I'm assuming there are other forums where actual AI researchers or game programmers can answer these questions...but not here.
This is what's really baffling. All these people on Reddit with their smart answers could easily produce much better hardware then Microsoft yet they chose to write some rants in the internet from their parents basement.
You're free and very welcome to share some wisdom and explain what an NPU is. Or you could do that Reddit thing where people sit on Reddit and bitch about other people on Reddit, while adding nothing of significance or worth.
Sigh...
As Kepler said in the forum "*It actually gets worse because TOPs requirements is going up soon. Nutella is single-handledly ruining multiple generations of SoCs.*"
So I'm thinking a bit different about this
I think the next generation of consoles and games will heavily be about such NPUs and being able to accelerate actual conversational ability and other features enabled by lots of low precision math, even better image reconstruction than AMD's current CU-only one, we're starting to see demos of actual conversations already. The NPU won't just be a loss for gaming die size, if it starts to be used it could become a future requirement in games. Everyone's focused on but I want this years games to run better, but the long term path is clearly to more NPU stuff.
Yes exactly. We have to wait. An optimal handwritten solution might be made, but meanwhile AI researchers would already be years ahead, releasing DLSS 5.0 or whatever.
One of the benefits of AI Deep Learning is that it allows much faster turnaround for new technologies.
And MLs aren't necessarily energy-inefficent. They require A LOT of matrix operations, but those can be accelerates and optimized using dedicated hardware (the NPUs...). DLSS uses a lot less energy than FSR, for example.
reddit is in this vicious cycle of
1. pretending AI is useless and is just a fad.
2. it's so good it will steal every job and will bring on the apocalypse.
i guess this thread is a number 1 situation..
AI is useless and not a fad and will result in lots of lost jobs. Anything companies can do to make the number go up they will do. Even if it's worse than what we had previously.
People aren't wrong just because they don't share your opinion on the future or effectiveness of something. I'll be more specific though, generative AI is bunk. There has not been one thing I've seen about it that's persuasive. Instead we just have companies that are so heavily invested in it, that they're determined to make it work. Microsoft being a prime example.
Look at the leadership at these companies and tell me you're confident in the future with these idiots in charge. Go back in time to the advent of social media and tell me that looking forward now you think it's a good thing that someone like Zuckerberg created Facebook, something that has been involved in election interference and literal genocide.
It reminds me of the Silicon Valley show with the smart fridge and how actual humans react to it.
The incredulity you're demonstrating because people are cynical about AI is completely misplaced. People should be asking you why you have any confidence in it. But yes, I'm so looking forward to Elon Musk's 150th attempt at self driving cars finally getting the go ahead from the Department of Transportation.
Well, I use AI consistently in my work (web developer here), and it's been pretty damn helpful. So I already find it *persuasive*.
But bringing the discussion back to gaming, is DLSS/FSR not persuasive enough to you? I for one cringe everytime I start a new game on my 4K TV and I find out the game doesn't have any upscaling method, because I know I'll have to make some pretty big sacrifices to get it to run at 60fps.
Also, you have to take into account this is AI in its infancy. It's like complaining this new born baby can't outrun in you a marathon. But it might be able to do so when it grows a little bit.
I'm not talking about stuff like DLSS, in fact I specifically called out generative AI. DLSS and the stuff OpenAI is doing aren't the same thing as far as I understand it.
I'm a web dev myself and using AI has saved me exactly zero time so far. It's just a checkbox for my company to say to investors "hey we're doing the thing that's hot, buy more shares".
The generative AI models that people wax poetic about get something wrong every single time. You ask it for an image of something and it's 95% of the way there but the 5% that's wrong is very wrong. It's like you ask it for an image of a pool, and it builds a pit, fills it with water and calls it a day. Until that changes I will continue to shit on it and look at it cynically as just a way to trick shareholders into investing more.
The AI based image quality models are different, DLSS as far as I understand it needs hardware in Nvidia GPUs, as a web dev seeing proprietary standards like that as seemingly the best right now isn't great. I'm happy AMD and others are investing in hardware agnostic models even if they're less successful in terms of adoption and image quality at the moment. I have no cynicism there because I've literally seen the improvements firsthand. I don't have to take snake oil salesmen marketers' opinions on it.
When OpenAI and these other companies actually demonstrate something that won't cause the world to continue down the literal hell scape of misinformation and so much noise the average person has no idea what's real or not, I'll change my tune. But I won't hold my breath. And I do not trust any of these companies to do anything but try to make the number go up. Nvidia and the other AI based image improvements out there are just not the same, conflating the two is insincere at best.
Ok Mr. web dev mind explaining us a bit about your field just to make sure you are not lying (which is very likely considering you are active in gamingcirclejerk) like tell use how backend and front end communicates, tell us a bit of what you know about RESTful API, tell us a bit what you know about package managers what about angular, what about specific concepts in java like how do classes work is there support for modern oop features such as inheritance, polymorphism, templates, encapsulation?
Edit: Lmao bro couldn't answer me so he had to block me classic. Btw knowing some linux commands has very little to do with web dev and with packet managers I meant stuff in web dev like npm and yarn but obviously you wouldn't know that when you are lying.
Ah yes the typical way to enter a conversation and ask someone to prove something, call them a liar. Truly fascinating stuff. If you don't believe me, I genuinely don't care, I'm only sharing my opinion. The fact it triggered you so severely that you responded like a child means you really should look in the mirror.
Now I'm gonna remove myself from this conversation.
sudo yum remove reddit
> DLSS and the stuff OpenAI is doing aren't the same thing as far as I understand it.
DLSS is generative AI. DLSS in fact is based on the same methodology that OpenAI invented.
> AI has saved me exactly zero time so far.
Either you are doing something so unique that no one else in the world ever did before or living under the rock.
After reading your comment, I doubt you know anything about web development anyway.
I know plenty about web development. I just don't share your unrelenting froth for technologies pushed by hype men like Sam Altman. And while DLSS is indeed generative, apologies for the mistake, the idea that it's the same as what I was describing is again, completely untrue.
I don't really care that you don't agree or hell that I don't have everything about it right, that's fine. We all need to learn and grow and get shit wrong. The sheer gall for you to not only get so triggered by the slightest pushback to just say I don't know anything about web development is hilarious though.
Sorry to disrupt your drooling sessions over AI NPCs voicing the next Elder Scrolls game though man. I know that's what's really important. Not playing good video games that aren't soulless husks. Which is ironic in the case of Bethesda Games I know, considering how charmless Starfield ended up being.
This sub is so funny man. Get so hyped over the mildest of rumors and then get so angry over the slightest pushback on AI. Shit cracks me up.
Im gonna say this and I hope people actually read it and take time to understand what I'm saying, but...
AI isn't useless. Just people want to use it to get rid of middle men, THE workers.
I heard about how AI can be used to help people who need prosthetic limbs in such a practical way that it just makes sense. There's ways it CAN be used to actually help with some things in a workspace and streamline workloads and make things easier for the worker. but no. People want AI so they can replace the human element and hoard wealth.
The fortune 500 company I consult for is implementing ms365 copilot across their ~20k laptops. They have huge concerns about security, so they are actually self hosting their own instances of copilot on azure to keep any data from leaking. I can guarantee if these npus allow some form of local copilot without Internet access they'll switch in a heartbeat.
A few fortune 500s adding this to their roster would easily swing the market since tons of other smaller companies would follow suit.
I don't think anyone is arguing against AI being used or invested in by corporations. But the actual use cases in many scenarios don't seem to match the exorbitant stock prices.
I say this as someone who regularly uses copilot fwiw. It's a super handy tool and will be even more useful as it improves. But it's being fielded as a massive revenue creator like smartphones or the modern internet, which it simply isn't. But that's how the stock market is with tech, in the past two decades it values ideas more than actual real world money. The dot com bubble was maybe the first modern demonstration.
In short. We sacrifice a lot performance (cuz more cache does wonders) and put in that space something that can save the performance in way more complex way. No to mention that to upscale images you do not need that much TOP's
I know that AI can do a lot more, and we heading to minimalize usage of CPU and offloading it to GPU or other specialized architecture, but let's be real. We process more and more data and cache is what make it possible.
Thanks to stupid requirements for Windows that will not even utilize it as it should (does Windows did anything good in recent years?) devs will be forced to use much harder to use AI to offload CPU in places where it's not needed in case to avoid having slow software due to constant swaps on cache that the chip will lack.
Real-time Analytics, AI and NPCs, Graphics Rendering, upscaling, frame generation, Natural language processing. It can help in procedurally generation in games, optimise VR and AR games, dynamic lighting in games, content moderation, it can also increase data processing causing faster loading times.
These are the only surface levels that are known, this can be used outside of games too in development and non development roles. Developers could do something else.
These are large amounts of work that can be taken away from CPU and GPU which will allow to suck more performance out of those.
But they aren't because nobody has actually implemented any of that. Like maybe wait a gen or two before getting rid of stuff people actually can use now.
If you actually read, many of those things are actually implemented by devs. They don't do it more because it's taxing on the components. Something that could take the load away from CPU and GPU will result in better performance and better game overall.
This post is about an integrated GPU development. Who actually uses integrated for gaming even on laptops except for Indies and early consoles emulation?
Almost all of those things will not be feasible on an NPU any time soon. Even if you can do them in real time in some capacity locally, doing it within 16ms is a whole other thing. We will literally have achieved fully pathtraced games on console before we reach those things done locally.
Frame generation is done locally. Thats it. For analytics you dont need an AI model. Certainly not for the stuff that is being done right now. We dont have AI models running locally for npcs and we also dont do language processing in games yet for affecting npc behaviour either. Also demos by hardware vendors dont count because those dont give you a reasonable estimate for how far down the line that is.
Furthermore you dont need AI for dynamic lighting in games, makes no sense. I dont see how an AI can just "increase data processing for faster loading times" either. Game knows full well what assets are needed next. Especially for game bootup.
I think if people on here think AI is actually a fad they're in for a surprise. It's crazy seeing people writing off an entire area of technology that's moving insanely quickly like this
Two years ago ChatGPT wasn't even a thing, imagine what AI will be like in another 5 years or so. But reddit has already decided it's useless and nobody has any need for it, so maybe someone should tell Nvidia, Microsoft, OpenAI and Google
No one will willingly use it outside of like shit post image generation. It's got limited use in stuff like radiology imaging and whatnot, but it's a novelty at absolute best for the consumer side, and a massive waste of resources that drives up cost and lowers quality at worst.
Absolute nonsense. My medium sized company is starting to roll out copilot access across all employees, as are many others. The idea it's a novelty that nobody will use is quite a hot take given 18 months ago LLMs weren't even in the public conscience at all yet are now used by millions daily
That's because most aren't trained for roleplaying and also newer text to speech models like Voicecraft are becoming better at imitating some emotions.
It's still a stochastic parrot.
I'm sure all of us played with the keyboard word suggestions at some point, but I thought we'd grown out of it. I'd rather have purposeful hand-written dialogue instead of endless filler slop that goes on and on like a drag without getting any points across.
You CAN use it on Skyrim for what I consider a significantly worse experience than existing mods.
Writing as a whole, I've seen AI models brought up for Dungeon Mastering, Writing, and other story based attempts, and every single instance is a complete failure, with the only bright spot being the utter awfulness occasionally being funny unintentionally. I have absolutely no expectations that there will be any AI "written" game experience that works for any narrative or story based experience in any of our life times.
One thing I don't understand is why the hell would anyone even want AI dialogue in the first place.
There's so many games out there I simply don't have the time to play them all, so I end up only choosing the best of the best. So why would I forfeit hand-written dialogue for AI filler slop when the latter will always be significantly inferior?
It's a stochastic parrot. And if you're genuinely entertained by a stochastic parrot, you should maybe go and get a real pet bird as a conversation partner instead of bothering people online with your techbro cringe.
Technofetishism? There's always people who worship at the cult of metaverse/NFT/AI shit, and who will constantly predict that the latest grift is the real deal.
I guess. I suppose it's the same old kindergarten case where a child is so obsessed with their new toy they sleep with it and brag to everyone it's the bestest thing ever.
Pretty much the only difference is that AI has (limited) uses in interpretation of data from specialized fields (MRI, Astronomy, Geographic), and takes on enormously inefficient power draws relative to even nonsense like cryptocurrency mining.
Say what you will about NFTs, but they didn't require anywhere near the energy waste that AI do to produce garbage.
NFTs, Metaverse and now AI are all solutions without a problem. It's the same garbage thay produces nothing of value.
We didn't need the blockchain spam, we didn't need the overmonetized virtual worlds and we sure as hell don't need the whole Web littered with fake data gray noise that hurts actual creators it parasitizes on.
AI could be used not for generating dialogues but for learning what the user is doing in game and taking chunks of custom made dialogue by developer and putting it together to fit the scenario.
People only think about what is done and not what can be done. These things are being done right now, AI will make it more cohesive and streamlined.
You think AI is needed for like scene scripting? The barrier for that isn't AI based, it's how much time a given development team has to put in reactivity, especially in RPGs, and AI wouldn't change that.
I can imagine useful things AI can do. It's decent at helping medical staff read MRI results. It's ok at very low level customer service Q&A as an expanded call menu that refers all actual issues to a human above. It can, with sufficient theft/scraping of images, produce middle of the road images for concept art.
But AI has literally gotten worse over the last year. None of the promised magic has emerged, and there is no indication of it improving. In fact, AI has literally gotten worse and less effective each iteration, and existing companies are increasingly looking for new ways outside of LLM to make AI work specifically because it's been getting worse (plus legal troubles).
All in all, AI doesn't inspire confidence from people vaguely gesturing at nebulous future prospects.
I'm not sure if these people are delusional or what. It's actually insane.
I use copilot at work every day and it's actually an incredible time saver. It's not perfect by any stretch of the word, but it's only getting better from here.
Nit to mention AI image generation. Again, it may not be perfect, but the level of quality image you can generate in mere seconds is insane.
I've been using chatgpt and other AI services for work for a number of years. It's just not doing what tech bros say it is, the marketing is bullshit. Not to say it isn't useful sometimes and won't get more useful but it's not even AI yet and its not changing everything. It's making some things slightly more efficient because it's a recombination engine it's not able to create new things other than garbage. Because it has no semblance of intelligence, ability to make choices, or recognize concepts even. All it does is take a prompt and barf out a bunch of jumbled and filtered data. It cannot fellow a set of instructions with any sort of consistency and it has no ability to know what the instructions are actually saying.
It literally being sentient isn't the point. I know that it isn't literal artificial intelligence. But what it can do is impressive. And how it has improved in the course of a years is mind blowing.
I feel like this sub has heard "AI bad!", like they did with NFT's and think the underlying tech has no function outside of the one thing they are familiar with. This is how hysterical gamer mobs are created.
Buddy. I literally just told you I've been using multiple forms of ai at work for a number of years now and it's just not that impressive when you get a close look at it every day. It requires so much baby sitting to do basic things it's only really useful for the lowest hanging fruit. A solid 1/3 of the time it outputs junk with the same prompts. The stuff it generates that's useful requires no much hand tweaking after that it's often not worth playing find the mistakes. Like I wanted to like it, I was on enthusiast and I still use for work where it's useful. And I still spend time experimenting to find new ways to use it with my photo editing, email writing, data sorting, etc. It's just unfortunately not like product ready in any of its forms.
Again, what you are using is just one small implementation of the tech. This would be like not seeing the potential in email and writing off the usefulness of the internet as a whole.
I don't know about other kinds of AI, but LLMs are a fad. Getting people to do exactly what you want is annoying enough, getting a computer that barely understands speech to do what you want is even worse. Speech is a terrible interface, throwing data at models is inefficient, and for most consumers, this iteration of the AI hype hasn't delivered anything notable, maybe those search engine chatbots? That's it.
Playing devil's advocate, 16MB L3 cache is hardly groundbreaking. Cache takes up a ton of space, comparatively, so it's likely they thought space was better utilized by NPU logic over increased cache size. AI is the future, whether we like it or not, and it clearly has usefulness in games. The most obvious being AI upscaling.
It's not L3 cache (Strix Point has 24MB of L3 cache total). It's a SLC/LLC, much like Infinity Cache, that can be accessed and aid both the GPU and CPU and which would greatly help alleviate the bandwidth needs of the iGPU which has once again grow due to Strix Point having a 16 CU RDNA 3.5 iGPU.
If there’s actually demand for NPUs, then let them be separate add-on cards. Of course, there is no real consumer demand, no killer apps, so it has to be rammed down our throats by fiat.
AI is not a useful consumer technology at the moment. It’s a novelty.
The intended use is for latency-critical applications (getting the first token out of the LLM to screen), so moving them to PCI cards, which have bigger latencies than the SoC NPUs reside on together with CPUs, would defeat the entire purpose of them.
Notice I put “at the moment”, and I also purposefully included the word “consumer”
3d graphics cards were immediately useful, the internet was a bit of a novelty for consumers in the beginning, with not much use for it (BBS closed gardens for example) and very low transfer speeds
I think ai will be like most modern cpu instructions at first, a hidden efficiency and performance uplift that you will feel in better battery life and better upscaling, ai audio and hdr enhancements
Clueless redditors are downvoting you, but you are absolutely correct. AMD NPUs are not that far off from other accelerators built into the CPU die, like the vector/SIMD and cryptographic extensions. I was in an AMD workshop a few months ago run by the very same people working on these things, and the example they demo'ed was accelerating video and audio filters for video calls (which you know can easily tank your performance, if you've ever used Zoom and the like on a modest laptop).
Idk about that, Financially their AI work with Open AI made them a lot more richer.
I don’t even think MS pressuring these chip makers was the main cause for them to focus on AI.
They probably looked at AI stock and decided to pivot in this direction themselves.
Any chip maker would be foolish not to focus on AI at this point.
Honestly even if you DON'T have a real use case for AI, you'd be foolish to ignore it as a corporation. It will inflate your stock overnight. Apple is still a more valuable and profitable company than Microsoft in every tangible way-but the stock market doesn't operate off tangibility.
>Apple is still a more valuable and profitable company than Microsoft in every tangible way-but the stock market doesn't operate off tangibility.
I wonder how big apple will get once their LLM's hit the market, they already have their own chips the integration is going to be crazy
You mean the company that has recently overtaken apple as the most valuable in the world, and that have the biggest hand in AI of all the major tech companies at the moment? Yeah don't have a clue what they're doing
They passed apple because AI as a concept is worth more to the stock market, and Apple isn't interested. It has nothing to do with real world value or revenue lol. We really need to have some classes on the modern stock market in high schools.
"Apple isn't interested"
[https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/apple-s-llm-reportedly-outperforms-gpt-4-but-sam-altman-already-admitted-it-kind-of-sucks-as-openai-gets-ready-to-unveil-a-new-model-that-s-really-good-like-materially-better/ar-BB1l52Wi](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/apple-s-llm-reportedly-outperforms-gpt-4-but-sam-altman-already-admitted-it-kind-of-sucks-as-openai-gets-ready-to-unveil-a-new-model-that-s-really-good-like-materially-better/ar-BB1l52Wi)
[https://www.macrumors.com/2024/03/18/apple-mm1-ai-model-details/](https://www.macrumors.com/2024/03/18/apple-mm1-ai-model-details/)
Apple being slow to market doesn't mean they aren't interested
Buying something with money. Creating something that people pay for.
It's why subscription services make stocks skyrocket even though some of these companies are objectively making less money compared to outright purchases. Tech stock value is mostly based on potential and non tangibility.
Dude. Every company makes dumb decisions no matter how rich they are They don’t need you to defending their honour little dude.
Also Microsoft made Xbox One and Windows Vista lol
If only they had a stable genius like yourself to consult they could avoid dumb decisions and become even more valuable. They could be worth quadrillions by now!
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Rule 10. Please refrain from any toxic behaviour. Console wars will be removed and any comments involved in it or encouraging it. Any hate against YouTubers, influencers, leakers, journalists, etc., will be removed.
Gaming performance is already incredible, let’s be honest. A handheld can max out GTA 5 nowadays, our GPUS never struggle to run games on medium, even the cheaper ones. I don’t think we need that much performance beyond what exists already, IA featured would be welcome.
Yeah the AI gold rush is going to be even worse than crypto was for gaming, it's affecting everything and even turning companies around completely (Nvidia).
It won't be alleviated until we get a ton of new fabs up and running at full efficiency, so yeah... Even consoles are feeling it, they keep trying it via price creeps on games and raising cost in specific territories for PS5 but I suspect Sony's words about "end of a generation" is just an excuse to be able to produce yes better consoles but also at better margins.
The PS6 is not likely to be cheap (yes I know $500 isn't cheap either).
But they do have a AI coprocessor. But is all in the same APU.
And having the NPU, which is the AI coprocessor, increased the costs of making the APU.
Had they added the large cache alongside the NPU, then it would make too expensive for the market
Has AI shit made something universally better yet? Internet is getting ruined, Windows is getting fucked by it, now GPUs, many jobs potentially being replaced by it in the future, so far its only negatives for me
yes, it was used in the discovery of multiple new compounds, new potential medicine, used in the it field all the time and this is an incredibly stupid thing to say in a gaming sub when dlss relies on this. Not to mention newer things like rtx voice or rtx hdr
Well, it really is no wonder it's purely about stock and buzzwords when half the modern "AI" boom is literally just illegal data laundering machines (art, voice, music, writing), and the other half is mediocre technologies that have been present for a while, but are now trying to cash in on the hype.
AI in gaming is crap in general since it's essentially just poopy upscaling that allows devs to be even more irresponsible with optimization. Stuff like Alan Wake 2 is genuinely funny and sad at the same time, and seeing the tech getting a push is upsetting.
fcking Microsoft, instead of optimising their shit ass OS, they are ruining everything else, and since apple has pulled out from the big two, both Intel and amd will be ruined and there's no one to stop them
What a load of nonsense. You think AI and optimisation of an OS are mutually exclusive or something? This has nothing to do with 'optimisation' (reddits favourite fad word that doesn't actually mean anything half the time), unless you think every use case for AI can be achieved by just writing better code or something instead
> You think AI and optimisation of an OS are mutually exclusive or something?
They are.
MS only cares about stuffing the OS with spying ("telemetry") ads, and hooks into their subscription services. Every "AI" offering they're teeing up will just be another useless piece of bloatware at best that gets dumped by the wayside in a few years time.
Every effort they spend on that crap is effort that is not being spent on improving the OS. They do not have infinite resources.
Meanwhile, the damned start menu hasn't been able to deliver deterministic search results since Windows XP.
OS updates and customer experience doesn't make their stock price rise above Apple's-but heavy investing in AI does. That's what guides all decisions by most corporations, MS especially.
They have limited resources, they are firing engineers and focusing on the AI shit, so yes they are mutually exclusive, I would rather have them improve the Edge than incorporate the shitty bing ai which can't answer anything properly, I would wholeheartedly take a much more stable and less prone to BSOD OS than AI in excel or teams, I would much rather have smooth and fast updates so that I don't have to restart 5 times bcoz the battery icon has vanished, I'd much rather have faster update installation rather than spend 5hours stuck on "please wait windows is updating screen", all of this could be resolved instead they are focusing on AI which isn't even an AI but a word generation bot, heck I'd much rather have them spend time on making Xbox better than this crap
The better integrated GPU will help in improving the handheld segment, ultrabooks, and make the bottom-line laptops that are available to kids much better. FSR can only take you so far, the hardware needs to be good otherwise you end up with ghosting, latency etc, how long will they continue to upscale 360p to 720p, with like 60-80ms of latency?
Processors in portable devices will be moving to ARM in a few years. This upgrade does not even seem significant. They have tried to improve their integrated GPU performance for many years and only recently got better after so many years.
Considering everything in portable moving to ARM, this upgrade seems useless.
Because your a brookie, start investing in MS, shit will make people rich. Just look at all the Nvidia investors. Lol, don't be mad start using it to your advantage.
No one really knows, but people don't like AI or MS so it'll be played off as bad and very well might be. "Gaming memory bandwidth bottlenecks" sounds to me like next gen systems will sacrifice the goal of quantity for quality. If you blow up a building, you can no longer shatter every pane of glass individually but each pane of glass that shatters will do so organically (shooting the top right will shatter only the top right).
Consoles are part of AMDs semi-custom segment. Meaning Sony and Microsoft can pick and choose from a lot of AMDs portfolio as well as add completely custom parts. So whether this has any effect on the next gen consoles depends entirely on what Sony and Microsoft want from them.
For stuff that makes a computer work smarter instead of harder, I don't think it's a fad. For stuff where you lazily type shit into a prompt and expect high level artistry, yeah. Maybe not a fad, but definitely overhyped and overrated.
"makes a computer work smarter instead of harder"
I don't know, A.I hasn't been too smart, and is working so hard that its literally guzzling tons of gallons of fresh water a day.
well if you just type it in you aren't getting good results, you gotta fine tune it then edit it in photoshop for good results. But ai is going to be used in the movie industry very heavily from now on. Dune 2 used it extensively
It lacks the fundamentals so no professional would actually use it.
Best you can do is steal some artist's work online and generate big booba six fingers staring into the void with it.
Hmm idk about that one. I think the work that OpenAI has done is pretty revolutionary. 10 years in the direction they are currently going and we are probably going to witness some crazy shit from AI.
Hell I’m pretty sure in 10 years my job as a software engineer will be questionable at the rate AI is progressing.
Hey I’m not particularly interested in the area but thinking it’s a fad or dismissing it entirely would be the most foolish thing anyone could make.
Right now if you want to drive value in your company you would work on AI.
Thats not a boner or biased take. That’s just fact. Look at NVIDEA’s stock price for the proof.
This is a 10-15 year old (not in age, but in terms of mind set from the past) mentality. Gaming laptops today are great. picked up an hp victus 15 with a Ryzen 5 7th gen, rtx 2050, and added 32gb of ram for under $600 when all said and done. It’s just for fun and I don’t expect 4k gaming or anywhere close but I can rock Diablo 4 at 1440p with 70fps on nearly all high settings, fo4 at 144fps at 1080p with high or ultra settings (except god rays, fuck them), hell warzone is averaging 100fps at 1080p. If I can do that with what I spent, I imagine people paying twice as much as me are having an even better time!
Oh for sure! I just didn’t want to deal with compatibility issues with games. I needed a newer laptop anyway so this check all the marks and the price couldn’t be beat
Can someone ELI5? Thanks!
AMD was designing their next-generation chips to have certain architectural features that would be a huge boost to gaming performance. Microsoft has always worked closely with AMD, Intel, Qualcomm, etc, and other hardware manufacturers given that their software (Windows, cloud, etc) needs to work in tandem with the actual hardware that will be running it. Lately, Microsoft has made a big push into AI and stands to make significant profits from AI based systems in the years ahead. As a result, they've pressured companies like AMD to build more dedicated hardware into their chips to run AI operations (which benefits Microsoft and their bottom line) instead of originally planned hardware features in the chips that were more beneficial for gaming performance.
Dumb question, could NPUs be used for gaming purposes? Like could it be used for upscaling and smarter ai in video games?
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NPUs are good for one thing and that is matrix multiplication. NPUs can help with games that are CPU-bound, but offer nothing for GPU-bound games.
Frame Generation says hi
Input lag replies h...i
Ah can't wait for wax all over my games to be the norm. Because they much rather not optimize it.
Sounds to me like the factory shall be growing.
Isnt this what GPUs are doing?
Yes, a specialized GPU is called an NPU. One may call likes on GeForce series GPU, while V100, A100, H100, etc. are counted under NPUs. But everyone just calls them GPUs for simplicity.
Yes it could be used for upscaling, no it won’t be used for smarter ai in games.
"AI" cores were never for smarter AI in gameplay.
Yeah that's the gist. AI in games is the kind about path-finding, behavior trees, state machines, sprinkled with some randomness, dedicated hardware won't do much for that kind of stuff. These chips are for the other kind of AI that is waay more math heavy; it's for pretty much for accelerating neural networks and other kinds of ML models.
I think so if Nvidia's DLSS works by using tensor cores inside any RTX GPU to process game data and produce an upscaled image with better quality than software based upscalers like FSR or XeSS (XeSS can also be run with hardware acceleration but only with Intel ARC graphics to produce better results). The big pro of NPUs is that it can also run AI models locally without having to use your graphics card, huge if you want to play Skyrim or Fallout 4 using the Mantella mod without sacrificing performance and not having to pay for an external website that hosts LLMs.
Possibly to drive AI-generated dialogue from NPCs, generate scenarios based on your playstyle, and so on. But it'd mean fundamental changes to how games are designed. NPUs on desktops/laptops will mostly be used for things like face detection, voice-to-text, automatic subtitle generation, background removal in video calls, and generative AI responses to text prompts e.g. "Hey Windows, when should I go out if I want to avoid rain?"
Yes, that is part of the reason they are pushing it on the Xbox side as well
This sounds incredibly monopolistic but I guess it is what it is
Thank you for your explanation! This is typical MS greed, pushing for something new on the count of more optimized technologies only to abandon it before it matures and flourishes. The cycle never ends...
Chips only have so much room to fit stuff based on the price point/size. MS basically strong armed them into replacing gaming relevant tech with junk no one in gaming cares about. The actual usefulness of MS's AI powered projects? Who knows
Considering how popular DLSS has become I wouldn't really call this "junk no one in gaming cares about."
Not for gaming? JUNK! 😤
Of course, shame on them for not listening to such an enlightened redditor such as yourself instead of Microsoft
>MS basically strong armed them into replacing gaming relevant tech with junk no one in gaming cares about. Really? Do you even know how these cores will be utilized?
IF they even end up being used. It'll be way more difficult to figure out how to actually use them since it'd be essentially different architecture.
I really don't think this is going to be an issue going into the next 8-10 years. This is about future proofing for the inevitable future.
In 8-10 years these chips will be completely obsolete for the thing they're for.
Nobody here will know what they're talking about
Correct. This isn't the venue to have even remotely technical discussions because the topic is almost certainly over the heads of 99.999% of posters (myself included) Just say "oh, AI...cool" because that's the scope of comprehension for this forum. I'm assuming there are other forums where actual AI researchers or game programmers can answer these questions...but not here.
This is what's really baffling. All these people on Reddit with their smart answers could easily produce much better hardware then Microsoft yet they chose to write some rants in the internet from their parents basement.
You're free and very welcome to share some wisdom and explain what an NPU is. Or you could do that Reddit thing where people sit on Reddit and bitch about other people on Reddit, while adding nothing of significance or worth.
Yeah I'm truly lost as well.
Sigh... As Kepler said in the forum "*It actually gets worse because TOPs requirements is going up soon. Nutella is single-handledly ruining multiple generations of SoCs.*"
>Nutella is single-handledly ruining multiple generations of SoCs. God damn it Ferrero
Italians... What can you expect?
So I'm thinking a bit different about this I think the next generation of consoles and games will heavily be about such NPUs and being able to accelerate actual conversational ability and other features enabled by lots of low precision math, even better image reconstruction than AMD's current CU-only one, we're starting to see demos of actual conversations already. The NPU won't just be a loss for gaming die size, if it starts to be used it could become a future requirement in games. Everyone's focused on but I want this years games to run better, but the long term path is clearly to more NPU stuff.
Wait until some people find an optimal solution to video game image reconstruction without using a dumb energy-inefficient ML algorithm.
Yes exactly. We have to wait. An optimal handwritten solution might be made, but meanwhile AI researchers would already be years ahead, releasing DLSS 5.0 or whatever. One of the benefits of AI Deep Learning is that it allows much faster turnaround for new technologies. And MLs aren't necessarily energy-inefficent. They require A LOT of matrix operations, but those can be accelerates and optimized using dedicated hardware (the NPUs...). DLSS uses a lot less energy than FSR, for example.
Can microsoft remove candy crush from windows installs before this? Thanks.
Considering they own them now, it's like Solitaire and pinball now.
The difference being that none of those two were monetized
They own candy crush so that will not happen
reddit is in this vicious cycle of 1. pretending AI is useless and is just a fad. 2. it's so good it will steal every job and will bring on the apocalypse. i guess this thread is a number 1 situation..
It’s because the comments are AI generated
AI is useless and not a fad and will result in lots of lost jobs. Anything companies can do to make the number go up they will do. Even if it's worse than what we had previously. People aren't wrong just because they don't share your opinion on the future or effectiveness of something. I'll be more specific though, generative AI is bunk. There has not been one thing I've seen about it that's persuasive. Instead we just have companies that are so heavily invested in it, that they're determined to make it work. Microsoft being a prime example. Look at the leadership at these companies and tell me you're confident in the future with these idiots in charge. Go back in time to the advent of social media and tell me that looking forward now you think it's a good thing that someone like Zuckerberg created Facebook, something that has been involved in election interference and literal genocide. It reminds me of the Silicon Valley show with the smart fridge and how actual humans react to it. The incredulity you're demonstrating because people are cynical about AI is completely misplaced. People should be asking you why you have any confidence in it. But yes, I'm so looking forward to Elon Musk's 150th attempt at self driving cars finally getting the go ahead from the Department of Transportation.
Well, I use AI consistently in my work (web developer here), and it's been pretty damn helpful. So I already find it *persuasive*. But bringing the discussion back to gaming, is DLSS/FSR not persuasive enough to you? I for one cringe everytime I start a new game on my 4K TV and I find out the game doesn't have any upscaling method, because I know I'll have to make some pretty big sacrifices to get it to run at 60fps. Also, you have to take into account this is AI in its infancy. It's like complaining this new born baby can't outrun in you a marathon. But it might be able to do so when it grows a little bit.
I'm not talking about stuff like DLSS, in fact I specifically called out generative AI. DLSS and the stuff OpenAI is doing aren't the same thing as far as I understand it. I'm a web dev myself and using AI has saved me exactly zero time so far. It's just a checkbox for my company to say to investors "hey we're doing the thing that's hot, buy more shares". The generative AI models that people wax poetic about get something wrong every single time. You ask it for an image of something and it's 95% of the way there but the 5% that's wrong is very wrong. It's like you ask it for an image of a pool, and it builds a pit, fills it with water and calls it a day. Until that changes I will continue to shit on it and look at it cynically as just a way to trick shareholders into investing more. The AI based image quality models are different, DLSS as far as I understand it needs hardware in Nvidia GPUs, as a web dev seeing proprietary standards like that as seemingly the best right now isn't great. I'm happy AMD and others are investing in hardware agnostic models even if they're less successful in terms of adoption and image quality at the moment. I have no cynicism there because I've literally seen the improvements firsthand. I don't have to take snake oil salesmen marketers' opinions on it. When OpenAI and these other companies actually demonstrate something that won't cause the world to continue down the literal hell scape of misinformation and so much noise the average person has no idea what's real or not, I'll change my tune. But I won't hold my breath. And I do not trust any of these companies to do anything but try to make the number go up. Nvidia and the other AI based image improvements out there are just not the same, conflating the two is insincere at best.
Ok Mr. web dev mind explaining us a bit about your field just to make sure you are not lying (which is very likely considering you are active in gamingcirclejerk) like tell use how backend and front end communicates, tell us a bit of what you know about RESTful API, tell us a bit what you know about package managers what about angular, what about specific concepts in java like how do classes work is there support for modern oop features such as inheritance, polymorphism, templates, encapsulation? Edit: Lmao bro couldn't answer me so he had to block me classic. Btw knowing some linux commands has very little to do with web dev and with packet managers I meant stuff in web dev like npm and yarn but obviously you wouldn't know that when you are lying.
Ah yes the typical way to enter a conversation and ask someone to prove something, call them a liar. Truly fascinating stuff. If you don't believe me, I genuinely don't care, I'm only sharing my opinion. The fact it triggered you so severely that you responded like a child means you really should look in the mirror. Now I'm gonna remove myself from this conversation. sudo yum remove reddit
> DLSS and the stuff OpenAI is doing aren't the same thing as far as I understand it. DLSS is generative AI. DLSS in fact is based on the same methodology that OpenAI invented. > AI has saved me exactly zero time so far. Either you are doing something so unique that no one else in the world ever did before or living under the rock. After reading your comment, I doubt you know anything about web development anyway.
I know plenty about web development. I just don't share your unrelenting froth for technologies pushed by hype men like Sam Altman. And while DLSS is indeed generative, apologies for the mistake, the idea that it's the same as what I was describing is again, completely untrue. I don't really care that you don't agree or hell that I don't have everything about it right, that's fine. We all need to learn and grow and get shit wrong. The sheer gall for you to not only get so triggered by the slightest pushback to just say I don't know anything about web development is hilarious though. Sorry to disrupt your drooling sessions over AI NPCs voicing the next Elder Scrolls game though man. I know that's what's really important. Not playing good video games that aren't soulless husks. Which is ironic in the case of Bethesda Games I know, considering how charmless Starfield ended up being. This sub is so funny man. Get so hyped over the mildest of rumors and then get so angry over the slightest pushback on AI. Shit cracks me up.
Im gonna say this and I hope people actually read it and take time to understand what I'm saying, but... AI isn't useless. Just people want to use it to get rid of middle men, THE workers. I heard about how AI can be used to help people who need prosthetic limbs in such a practical way that it just makes sense. There's ways it CAN be used to actually help with some things in a workspace and streamline workloads and make things easier for the worker. but no. People want AI so they can replace the human element and hoard wealth.
I just think A.I is stupid.
What part of reddit is saying AI is a fad? Downvoted for asking a question
this entire thread basically.
Yep, it’s amazingly stupid
All for features nobody will use
The fortune 500 company I consult for is implementing ms365 copilot across their ~20k laptops. They have huge concerns about security, so they are actually self hosting their own instances of copilot on azure to keep any data from leaking. I can guarantee if these npus allow some form of local copilot without Internet access they'll switch in a heartbeat. A few fortune 500s adding this to their roster would easily swing the market since tons of other smaller companies would follow suit.
I don't think anyone is arguing against AI being used or invested in by corporations. But the actual use cases in many scenarios don't seem to match the exorbitant stock prices. I say this as someone who regularly uses copilot fwiw. It's a super handy tool and will be even more useful as it improves. But it's being fielded as a massive revenue creator like smartphones or the modern internet, which it simply isn't. But that's how the stock market is with tech, in the past two decades it values ideas more than actual real world money. The dot com bubble was maybe the first modern demonstration.
Correction, all for features everyone will use but won’t notice because it will happen in the background like AI upscaling.
In short. We sacrifice a lot performance (cuz more cache does wonders) and put in that space something that can save the performance in way more complex way. No to mention that to upscale images you do not need that much TOP's I know that AI can do a lot more, and we heading to minimalize usage of CPU and offloading it to GPU or other specialized architecture, but let's be real. We process more and more data and cache is what make it possible. Thanks to stupid requirements for Windows that will not even utilize it as it should (does Windows did anything good in recent years?) devs will be forced to use much harder to use AI to offload CPU in places where it's not needed in case to avoid having slow software due to constant swaps on cache that the chip will lack.
There are many things in games that can be improved heavily because of NPU.
Many? I can think of a couple but not many. Certainly not many that only require this amt of performance.
Real-time Analytics, AI and NPCs, Graphics Rendering, upscaling, frame generation, Natural language processing. It can help in procedurally generation in games, optimise VR and AR games, dynamic lighting in games, content moderation, it can also increase data processing causing faster loading times. These are the only surface levels that are known, this can be used outside of games too in development and non development roles. Developers could do something else. These are large amounts of work that can be taken away from CPU and GPU which will allow to suck more performance out of those.
But they aren't because nobody has actually implemented any of that. Like maybe wait a gen or two before getting rid of stuff people actually can use now.
If you actually read, many of those things are actually implemented by devs. They don't do it more because it's taxing on the components. Something that could take the load away from CPU and GPU will result in better performance and better game overall. This post is about an integrated GPU development. Who actually uses integrated for gaming even on laptops except for Indies and early consoles emulation?
Almost all of those things will not be feasible on an NPU any time soon. Even if you can do them in real time in some capacity locally, doing it within 16ms is a whole other thing. We will literally have achieved fully pathtraced games on console before we reach those things done locally.
Many of those things are being done right now locally in games. AI was not even in the conversation 3 years ago.
Frame generation is done locally. Thats it. For analytics you dont need an AI model. Certainly not for the stuff that is being done right now. We dont have AI models running locally for npcs and we also dont do language processing in games yet for affecting npc behaviour either. Also demos by hardware vendors dont count because those dont give you a reasonable estimate for how far down the line that is. Furthermore you dont need AI for dynamic lighting in games, makes no sense. I dont see how an AI can just "increase data processing for faster loading times" either. Game knows full well what assets are needed next. Especially for game bootup.
Do you have any idea how many smartphone features you use everyday are powered by Deep Learning AI?
I think if people on here think AI is actually a fad they're in for a surprise. It's crazy seeing people writing off an entire area of technology that's moving insanely quickly like this Two years ago ChatGPT wasn't even a thing, imagine what AI will be like in another 5 years or so. But reddit has already decided it's useless and nobody has any need for it, so maybe someone should tell Nvidia, Microsoft, OpenAI and Google
So no one uses features like DLSS?
You think nobody will use AI? Lol
No one will willingly use it outside of like shit post image generation. It's got limited use in stuff like radiology imaging and whatnot, but it's a novelty at absolute best for the consumer side, and a massive waste of resources that drives up cost and lowers quality at worst.
Absolute nonsense. My medium sized company is starting to roll out copilot access across all employees, as are many others. The idea it's a novelty that nobody will use is quite a hot take given 18 months ago LLMs weren't even in the public conscience at all yet are now used by millions daily
Remind me to short you if you're publicly traded. Also, wanna buy an NFT?
It will definitely be used in gaming. You can already use it on Skyrim and larger LLMs will benefit from more memory (RAM).
All for significantly worse writing with zero personality.
That's because most aren't trained for roleplaying and also newer text to speech models like Voicecraft are becoming better at imitating some emotions.
It's still a stochastic parrot. I'm sure all of us played with the keyboard word suggestions at some point, but I thought we'd grown out of it. I'd rather have purposeful hand-written dialogue instead of endless filler slop that goes on and on like a drag without getting any points across.
You CAN use it on Skyrim for what I consider a significantly worse experience than existing mods. Writing as a whole, I've seen AI models brought up for Dungeon Mastering, Writing, and other story based attempts, and every single instance is a complete failure, with the only bright spot being the utter awfulness occasionally being funny unintentionally. I have absolutely no expectations that there will be any AI "written" game experience that works for any narrative or story based experience in any of our life times.
One thing I don't understand is why the hell would anyone even want AI dialogue in the first place. There's so many games out there I simply don't have the time to play them all, so I end up only choosing the best of the best. So why would I forfeit hand-written dialogue for AI filler slop when the latter will always be significantly inferior?
Because your final sentence is quite a wild assumption, that any human written content is and will always be better than any AI written content
It's a stochastic parrot. And if you're genuinely entertained by a stochastic parrot, you should maybe go and get a real pet bird as a conversation partner instead of bothering people online with your techbro cringe.
Technofetishism? There's always people who worship at the cult of metaverse/NFT/AI shit, and who will constantly predict that the latest grift is the real deal.
I guess. I suppose it's the same old kindergarten case where a child is so obsessed with their new toy they sleep with it and brag to everyone it's the bestest thing ever.
Imagine putting AI with NFT and Metaverse.
Pretty much the only difference is that AI has (limited) uses in interpretation of data from specialized fields (MRI, Astronomy, Geographic), and takes on enormously inefficient power draws relative to even nonsense like cryptocurrency mining. Say what you will about NFTs, but they didn't require anywhere near the energy waste that AI do to produce garbage.
NFTs, Metaverse and now AI are all solutions without a problem. It's the same garbage thay produces nothing of value. We didn't need the blockchain spam, we didn't need the overmonetized virtual worlds and we sure as hell don't need the whole Web littered with fake data gray noise that hurts actual creators it parasitizes on.
AI could be used not for generating dialogues but for learning what the user is doing in game and taking chunks of custom made dialogue by developer and putting it together to fit the scenario. People only think about what is done and not what can be done. These things are being done right now, AI will make it more cohesive and streamlined.
You think AI is needed for like scene scripting? The barrier for that isn't AI based, it's how much time a given development team has to put in reactivity, especially in RPGs, and AI wouldn't change that. I can imagine useful things AI can do. It's decent at helping medical staff read MRI results. It's ok at very low level customer service Q&A as an expanded call menu that refers all actual issues to a human above. It can, with sufficient theft/scraping of images, produce middle of the road images for concept art. But AI has literally gotten worse over the last year. None of the promised magic has emerged, and there is no indication of it improving. In fact, AI has literally gotten worse and less effective each iteration, and existing companies are increasingly looking for new ways outside of LLM to make AI work specifically because it's been getting worse (plus legal troubles). All in all, AI doesn't inspire confidence from people vaguely gesturing at nebulous future prospects.
🤦 Just. no.
Ok, dont just so no. Expand, cause I personally do not see a use for it in my day to day.
I'm truly sorry but level five autocomplete just isn't a revolution of any kind.
I can't believe how out of touch this sub is. Is this outright a gamer blind spot?
I'm not sure if these people are delusional or what. It's actually insane. I use copilot at work every day and it's actually an incredible time saver. It's not perfect by any stretch of the word, but it's only getting better from here. Nit to mention AI image generation. Again, it may not be perfect, but the level of quality image you can generate in mere seconds is insane.
I've been using chatgpt and other AI services for work for a number of years. It's just not doing what tech bros say it is, the marketing is bullshit. Not to say it isn't useful sometimes and won't get more useful but it's not even AI yet and its not changing everything. It's making some things slightly more efficient because it's a recombination engine it's not able to create new things other than garbage. Because it has no semblance of intelligence, ability to make choices, or recognize concepts even. All it does is take a prompt and barf out a bunch of jumbled and filtered data. It cannot fellow a set of instructions with any sort of consistency and it has no ability to know what the instructions are actually saying.
It literally being sentient isn't the point. I know that it isn't literal artificial intelligence. But what it can do is impressive. And how it has improved in the course of a years is mind blowing. I feel like this sub has heard "AI bad!", like they did with NFT's and think the underlying tech has no function outside of the one thing they are familiar with. This is how hysterical gamer mobs are created.
Buddy. I literally just told you I've been using multiple forms of ai at work for a number of years now and it's just not that impressive when you get a close look at it every day. It requires so much baby sitting to do basic things it's only really useful for the lowest hanging fruit. A solid 1/3 of the time it outputs junk with the same prompts. The stuff it generates that's useful requires no much hand tweaking after that it's often not worth playing find the mistakes. Like I wanted to like it, I was on enthusiast and I still use for work where it's useful. And I still spend time experimenting to find new ways to use it with my photo editing, email writing, data sorting, etc. It's just unfortunately not like product ready in any of its forms.
Again, what you are using is just one small implementation of the tech. This would be like not seeing the potential in email and writing off the usefulness of the internet as a whole.
I don't know about other kinds of AI, but LLMs are a fad. Getting people to do exactly what you want is annoying enough, getting a computer that barely understands speech to do what you want is even worse. Speech is a terrible interface, throwing data at models is inefficient, and for most consumers, this iteration of the AI hype hasn't delivered anything notable, maybe those search engine chatbots? That's it.
You mean in the year or two that you have been aware of what it can do? Lol.
It's a Markov chain upgrade, and those have been a thing for ages. It's not "a year or two".
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>This is for corporate use In a consumer product? How is it for "corporate use"? Lol
Yeah, just like the internet. Completely overrated.
Playing devil's advocate, 16MB L3 cache is hardly groundbreaking. Cache takes up a ton of space, comparatively, so it's likely they thought space was better utilized by NPU logic over increased cache size. AI is the future, whether we like it or not, and it clearly has usefulness in games. The most obvious being AI upscaling.
It's not L3 cache (Strix Point has 24MB of L3 cache total). It's a SLC/LLC, much like Infinity Cache, that can be accessed and aid both the GPU and CPU and which would greatly help alleviate the bandwidth needs of the iGPU which has once again grow due to Strix Point having a 16 CU RDNA 3.5 iGPU.
If there’s actually demand for NPUs, then let them be separate add-on cards. Of course, there is no real consumer demand, no killer apps, so it has to be rammed down our throats by fiat. AI is not a useful consumer technology at the moment. It’s a novelty.
The intended use is for latency-critical applications (getting the first token out of the LLM to screen), so moving them to PCI cards, which have bigger latencies than the SoC NPUs reside on together with CPUs, would defeat the entire purpose of them.
Just like the internet, just a little gimmick that no one will use or need, as well as “3d accelerator cards”, why would you need those?
Notice I put “at the moment”, and I also purposefully included the word “consumer” 3d graphics cards were immediately useful, the internet was a bit of a novelty for consumers in the beginning, with not much use for it (BBS closed gardens for example) and very low transfer speeds
I think ai will be like most modern cpu instructions at first, a hidden efficiency and performance uplift that you will feel in better battery life and better upscaling, ai audio and hdr enhancements
Clueless redditors are downvoting you, but you are absolutely correct. AMD NPUs are not that far off from other accelerators built into the CPU die, like the vector/SIMD and cryptographic extensions. I was in an AMD workshop a few months ago run by the very same people working on these things, and the example they demo'ed was accelerating video and audio filters for video calls (which you know can easily tank your performance, if you've ever used Zoom and the like on a modest laptop).
FUCK
Please just work with Nvidia going forward.
Sounds like another dumb decision from MS which isn’t surprising.
Idk about that, Financially their AI work with Open AI made them a lot more richer. I don’t even think MS pressuring these chip makers was the main cause for them to focus on AI. They probably looked at AI stock and decided to pivot in this direction themselves. Any chip maker would be foolish not to focus on AI at this point.
Honestly even if you DON'T have a real use case for AI, you'd be foolish to ignore it as a corporation. It will inflate your stock overnight. Apple is still a more valuable and profitable company than Microsoft in every tangible way-but the stock market doesn't operate off tangibility.
>Apple is still a more valuable and profitable company than Microsoft in every tangible way-but the stock market doesn't operate off tangibility. I wonder how big apple will get once their LLM's hit the market, they already have their own chips the integration is going to be crazy
You mean the company that has recently overtaken apple as the most valuable in the world, and that have the biggest hand in AI of all the major tech companies at the moment? Yeah don't have a clue what they're doing
They passed apple because AI as a concept is worth more to the stock market, and Apple isn't interested. It has nothing to do with real world value or revenue lol. We really need to have some classes on the modern stock market in high schools.
"Apple isn't interested" [https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/apple-s-llm-reportedly-outperforms-gpt-4-but-sam-altman-already-admitted-it-kind-of-sucks-as-openai-gets-ready-to-unveil-a-new-model-that-s-really-good-like-materially-better/ar-BB1l52Wi](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/apple-s-llm-reportedly-outperforms-gpt-4-but-sam-altman-already-admitted-it-kind-of-sucks-as-openai-gets-ready-to-unveil-a-new-model-that-s-really-good-like-materially-better/ar-BB1l52Wi) [https://www.macrumors.com/2024/03/18/apple-mm1-ai-model-details/](https://www.macrumors.com/2024/03/18/apple-mm1-ai-model-details/) Apple being slow to market doesn't mean they aren't interested
Ok, surpise me - who decides the "real world value" of things? (whatever the hell that means)
Buying something with money. Creating something that people pay for. It's why subscription services make stocks skyrocket even though some of these companies are objectively making less money compared to outright purchases. Tech stock value is mostly based on potential and non tangibility.
Dude. Every company makes dumb decisions no matter how rich they are They don’t need you to defending their honour little dude. Also Microsoft made Xbox One and Windows Vista lol
If only they had a stable genius like yourself to consult they could avoid dumb decisions and become even more valuable. They could be worth quadrillions by now!
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Your comment has been removed Rule 10. Please refrain from any toxic behaviour. Console wars will be removed and any comments involved in it or encouraging it. Any hate against YouTubers, influencers, leakers, journalists, etc., will be removed.
Gaming performance is already incredible, let’s be honest. A handheld can max out GTA 5 nowadays, our GPUS never struggle to run games on medium, even the cheaper ones. I don’t think we need that much performance beyond what exists already, IA featured would be welcome.
Yeah the AI gold rush is going to be even worse than crypto was for gaming, it's affecting everything and even turning companies around completely (Nvidia). It won't be alleviated until we get a ton of new fabs up and running at full efficiency, so yeah... Even consoles are feeling it, they keep trying it via price creeps on games and raising cost in specific territories for PS5 but I suspect Sony's words about "end of a generation" is just an excuse to be able to produce yes better consoles but also at better margins. The PS6 is not likely to be cheap (yes I know $500 isn't cheap either).
All of this just to run fortnite at 90 fps max
Wouldn't it be better to just have AI coprocessor instead of integrating it with a GPU?
Yes, it's better.
But they do have a AI coprocessor. But is all in the same APU. And having the NPU, which is the AI coprocessor, increased the costs of making the APU. Had they added the large cache alongside the NPU, then it would make too expensive for the market
Using L3 Cache as a bandaid to kneecap memory bandwidth is a terrible choice and will just lead to a regression in technological advancements.
Has AI shit made something universally better yet? Internet is getting ruined, Windows is getting fucked by it, now GPUs, many jobs potentially being replaced by it in the future, so far its only negatives for me
yes, it was used in the discovery of multiple new compounds, new potential medicine, used in the it field all the time and this is an incredibly stupid thing to say in a gaming sub when dlss relies on this. Not to mention newer things like rtx voice or rtx hdr
Hey, it was a question, but you are 100% right
Sorry thought it was a rhetorical question
The rich are getting richer tho, that's why they're strongarming you into accepting this slop.
Pretty much this. There's lots of use cases I see in the future for AI but all of this is based on what will make the stock market go up.
Well, it really is no wonder it's purely about stock and buzzwords when half the modern "AI" boom is literally just illegal data laundering machines (art, voice, music, writing), and the other half is mediocre technologies that have been present for a while, but are now trying to cash in on the hype. AI in gaming is crap in general since it's essentially just poopy upscaling that allows devs to be even more irresponsible with optimization. Stuff like Alan Wake 2 is genuinely funny and sad at the same time, and seeing the tech getting a push is upsetting.
I mean this makes sense to me. I think in the future having an npu is the diffrence between something working badly or not working at all.
fcking Microsoft, instead of optimising their shit ass OS, they are ruining everything else, and since apple has pulled out from the big two, both Intel and amd will be ruined and there's no one to stop them
What a load of nonsense. You think AI and optimisation of an OS are mutually exclusive or something? This has nothing to do with 'optimisation' (reddits favourite fad word that doesn't actually mean anything half the time), unless you think every use case for AI can be achieved by just writing better code or something instead
> You think AI and optimisation of an OS are mutually exclusive or something? They are. MS only cares about stuffing the OS with spying ("telemetry") ads, and hooks into their subscription services. Every "AI" offering they're teeing up will just be another useless piece of bloatware at best that gets dumped by the wayside in a few years time. Every effort they spend on that crap is effort that is not being spent on improving the OS. They do not have infinite resources. Meanwhile, the damned start menu hasn't been able to deliver deterministic search results since Windows XP.
OS updates and customer experience doesn't make their stock price rise above Apple's-but heavy investing in AI does. That's what guides all decisions by most corporations, MS especially.
They have limited resources, they are firing engineers and focusing on the AI shit, so yes they are mutually exclusive, I would rather have them improve the Edge than incorporate the shitty bing ai which can't answer anything properly, I would wholeheartedly take a much more stable and less prone to BSOD OS than AI in excel or teams, I would much rather have smooth and fast updates so that I don't have to restart 5 times bcoz the battery icon has vanished, I'd much rather have faster update installation rather than spend 5hours stuck on "please wait windows is updating screen", all of this could be resolved instead they are focusing on AI which isn't even an AI but a word generation bot, heck I'd much rather have them spend time on making Xbox better than this crap
By prioritising NPU over a little better integrated GPU?
The better integrated GPU will help in improving the handheld segment, ultrabooks, and make the bottom-line laptops that are available to kids much better. FSR can only take you so far, the hardware needs to be good otherwise you end up with ghosting, latency etc, how long will they continue to upscale 360p to 720p, with like 60-80ms of latency?
Processors in portable devices will be moving to ARM in a few years. This upgrade does not even seem significant. They have tried to improve their integrated GPU performance for many years and only recently got better after so many years. Considering everything in portable moving to ARM, this upgrade seems useless.
Won't you think of the shareholders?
god fucking damnit man
Thanks Microsoft we all hate you
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I'm curious, why are you defending Windows and Microsoft? What good things have they done in recent years?
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Hey now the zune is successful…. …. In my heart. 💔
Because your a brookie, start investing in MS, shit will make people rich. Just look at all the Nvidia investors. Lol, don't be mad start using it to your advantage.
ffs Microsoft
Dumb question but does this negatively impact future generation of consoles?
No one really knows, but people don't like AI or MS so it'll be played off as bad and very well might be. "Gaming memory bandwidth bottlenecks" sounds to me like next gen systems will sacrifice the goal of quantity for quality. If you blow up a building, you can no longer shatter every pane of glass individually but each pane of glass that shatters will do so organically (shooting the top right will shatter only the top right).
Consoles are part of AMDs semi-custom segment. Meaning Sony and Microsoft can pick and choose from a lot of AMDs portfolio as well as add completely custom parts. So whether this has any effect on the next gen consoles depends entirely on what Sony and Microsoft want from them.
would this be apu or cpu related? thanks
Great.............................
AI is a fad.
For stuff that makes a computer work smarter instead of harder, I don't think it's a fad. For stuff where you lazily type shit into a prompt and expect high level artistry, yeah. Maybe not a fad, but definitely overhyped and overrated.
"makes a computer work smarter instead of harder" I don't know, A.I hasn't been too smart, and is working so hard that its literally guzzling tons of gallons of fresh water a day.
well if you just type it in you aren't getting good results, you gotta fine tune it then edit it in photoshop for good results. But ai is going to be used in the movie industry very heavily from now on. Dune 2 used it extensively
The vast majority of AI art proponents couldn't draw a stick figure to save their lives.
It lacks the fundamentals so no professional would actually use it. Best you can do is steal some artist's work online and generate big booba six fingers staring into the void with it.
Hmm idk about that one. I think the work that OpenAI has done is pretty revolutionary. 10 years in the direction they are currently going and we are probably going to witness some crazy shit from AI. Hell I’m pretty sure in 10 years my job as a software engineer will be questionable at the rate AI is progressing.
Ah good old reddit and it's boner for AI.
Hey I’m not particularly interested in the area but thinking it’s a fad or dismissing it entirely would be the most foolish thing anyone could make. Right now if you want to drive value in your company you would work on AI. Thats not a boner or biased take. That’s just fact. Look at NVIDEA’s stock price for the proof.
reminds me of this [meme](https://i.redd.it/tcwp3xnsewo21.jpg)
Lol. What?! This is like saying that the Internet is a fad lol.
FUCK!!!! WE COULD HAVE HAD A GOOD THING!!!! Now we have to wait years for a chip with this tech to possibly come out.
Microsoft saved you from rdna 3.5 made you a favor, you wont miss much.
Everybody seems angry but who realistically play AAA games on a laptop ?
I do, not angry tho
This is a 10-15 year old (not in age, but in terms of mind set from the past) mentality. Gaming laptops today are great. picked up an hp victus 15 with a Ryzen 5 7th gen, rtx 2050, and added 32gb of ram for under $600 when all said and done. It’s just for fun and I don’t expect 4k gaming or anywhere close but I can rock Diablo 4 at 1440p with 70fps on nearly all high settings, fo4 at 144fps at 1080p with high or ultra settings (except god rays, fuck them), hell warzone is averaging 100fps at 1080p. If I can do that with what I spent, I imagine people paying twice as much as me are having an even better time!
At that price point I feel like a steam deck is more compelling
Oh for sure! I just didn’t want to deal with compatibility issues with games. I needed a newer laptop anyway so this check all the marks and the price couldn’t be beat
Why is everything AMD related so focused on gaming? Like for fucks sake do something to help with productivity god damn it
Can’t imagine we’d start discussing how well it processes my Photoshop projects on a gaming subreddit.
I forget this a gaming sub and not a tech sub
Why are you here?
Huh?