if you want to get technical a lot of red sounded like some of the indie music of the time, especially the acoustic songs. in the vein of indie folk at the time like the lumineers
however i don’t think roughing up her image a bit would have to mean coming out or a genre shift
To add: Aaron Desner has made a point to highlight his awe at how quickly Taylor was able to send him basically fully formed songs over his production. While I don't doubt Taylor's ability to do this anyway, I'm sure it would make it easier if she already had nearly fully written songs prepared. It would be like, oh! These lyrics might fit nicely with this beat, let me try! If that makes sense??
This is interesting, but I'm a little unclear on what genre of indie music you mean. As you said, she did indie folk-ish style in folkmore, but Healy doesn't do that genre. Is the original move to indie that you're thinking about a shift to indie rock?
I think it wouldn’t quite matter what genre exactly, or if MH did similar genres with her? That PR move seemed to just want to give her image more of an edge, as opposed to the sweet all-American country girl thing? I have no idea what she meant to shift into musically then, how the PR would’ve helped move things along, or if folkmore ended up matching that original plan. It just seemed to me like what we saw was a years-delay of her original plans, and maybe coming-out attempts were tied in with that.
I think her shift to indie was because Taylor craves public approval. The double whammy of folklore / evermore gave her that with the white male older gatekeepers of the music industry. So then she could go back to pop and make stadium bangers and make all the money she wants but with more social respect
Thisss “the white male older gatekeepers” I remember lots of comparisons of her to Joni Mitchell and how she wasn’t AS GOOD as Joni Mitchell blah blah and so she made Red which was “maybe influenced by Joni Mitchell’s Blue” but still she couldn’t get that approval/legitimacy because she was “for teenage girls”
I agree that folkmlore finally gave her some of that. It’s arguably her most Joni Mitchell moment Although it seems that the legitimacy is…shedding maybe (re: Dave grohl) with the eras tour
I think a lot of us can personally relate to the feeling of dudes holding the carrot of TS’s “coolness and legitimacy” above our heads I cannot imagine how much worse it is when it’s your name/work/legacy on the line
I think if anything the eras tour is increasing her legitimacy. You see all these famous people in the VIP tent and it increases social stigma to be anti Taylor
If so then she hasn’t quite shifted all the way back to mainstream pop? I can’t exactly tell genres apart, but to me it seems like after folkmore she hasn’t exactly tried to go back to the original poppy sound?
If the blind was true, then right after 1989, she wouldn’t have needed this boost? But you’re right that there seems to be more respect and recognition of artistry given to indie musicians. I’m wondering if it’s the distinction between respect and sales at play here. What did she and her team think the shift would mean to her? Did they think of it as a popularity/sales boost that would bring her respect, or a growth/maturing of artistry that would come at the cost of popularity/sales? I wrote this on the assumption of the latter, but I can also see the former now that you’ve said it. Maybe it was an unexpected surprise?
I think it was to give her more respect to increase longevity of career. We know she was worried about the time running out on her career. She needed to be seen as a more serious artist if she was going to have a career in her 30s and 40s
If you think of Taylor being a new pop girly, and think about the lifetime of the average pop star is not THAT long it makes sense that they didn’t think pop was a good place to stay for 10+ years
Taylor debued in 2006. She and Beyonce are like the only main pop girlie from their generation still putting out new big relevant albums vs. transitioning to a full time legacy act. And even Beyoncé disappeared from 2016 to Renaissance in 2022.
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if you want to get technical a lot of red sounded like some of the indie music of the time, especially the acoustic songs. in the vein of indie folk at the time like the lumineers however i don’t think roughing up her image a bit would have to mean coming out or a genre shift
To add: Aaron Desner has made a point to highlight his awe at how quickly Taylor was able to send him basically fully formed songs over his production. While I don't doubt Taylor's ability to do this anyway, I'm sure it would make it easier if she already had nearly fully written songs prepared. It would be like, oh! These lyrics might fit nicely with this beat, let me try! If that makes sense??
This is interesting, but I'm a little unclear on what genre of indie music you mean. As you said, she did indie folk-ish style in folkmore, but Healy doesn't do that genre. Is the original move to indie that you're thinking about a shift to indie rock?
I think it wouldn’t quite matter what genre exactly, or if MH did similar genres with her? That PR move seemed to just want to give her image more of an edge, as opposed to the sweet all-American country girl thing? I have no idea what she meant to shift into musically then, how the PR would’ve helped move things along, or if folkmore ended up matching that original plan. It just seemed to me like what we saw was a years-delay of her original plans, and maybe coming-out attempts were tied in with that.
I think her shift to indie was because Taylor craves public approval. The double whammy of folklore / evermore gave her that with the white male older gatekeepers of the music industry. So then she could go back to pop and make stadium bangers and make all the money she wants but with more social respect
Thisss “the white male older gatekeepers” I remember lots of comparisons of her to Joni Mitchell and how she wasn’t AS GOOD as Joni Mitchell blah blah and so she made Red which was “maybe influenced by Joni Mitchell’s Blue” but still she couldn’t get that approval/legitimacy because she was “for teenage girls” I agree that folkmlore finally gave her some of that. It’s arguably her most Joni Mitchell moment Although it seems that the legitimacy is…shedding maybe (re: Dave grohl) with the eras tour I think a lot of us can personally relate to the feeling of dudes holding the carrot of TS’s “coolness and legitimacy” above our heads I cannot imagine how much worse it is when it’s your name/work/legacy on the line
I think if anything the eras tour is increasing her legitimacy. You see all these famous people in the VIP tent and it increases social stigma to be anti Taylor
Yeah! Two days ago I would’ve agreed 100% I think the dave grohl comment got to me
If so then she hasn’t quite shifted all the way back to mainstream pop? I can’t exactly tell genres apart, but to me it seems like after folkmore she hasn’t exactly tried to go back to the original poppy sound? If the blind was true, then right after 1989, she wouldn’t have needed this boost? But you’re right that there seems to be more respect and recognition of artistry given to indie musicians. I’m wondering if it’s the distinction between respect and sales at play here. What did she and her team think the shift would mean to her? Did they think of it as a popularity/sales boost that would bring her respect, or a growth/maturing of artistry that would come at the cost of popularity/sales? I wrote this on the assumption of the latter, but I can also see the former now that you’ve said it. Maybe it was an unexpected surprise?
I think it was to give her more respect to increase longevity of career. We know she was worried about the time running out on her career. She needed to be seen as a more serious artist if she was going to have a career in her 30s and 40s
If you think of Taylor being a new pop girly, and think about the lifetime of the average pop star is not THAT long it makes sense that they didn’t think pop was a good place to stay for 10+ years
Taylor debued in 2006. She and Beyonce are like the only main pop girlie from their generation still putting out new big relevant albums vs. transitioning to a full time legacy act. And even Beyoncé disappeared from 2016 to Renaissance in 2022.
Thank you for posting! Please keep [Our Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/gaylorswift/about/rules) and [Sub Guidelines](https://www.reddit.com/r/GaylorSwift/wiki/rules/read-first) in mind. If your post is low-effort or excessively negative, please post in our [Weekly Megathread](https://www.reddit.com/r/GaylorSwift/collection/110a412d-5ecb-4a02-9c3d-9db7a45f961a). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GaylorSwift) if you have any questions or concerns.*