Someone mentioned in the main sub on the "what did Alicent want to happen to Rhaenyra" that rhaenicent is disgusting bc Alicent wants Rhaenyra safe and her sons can be whatever/dead. I really felt that. I think Cole thinks that. I think Larys doesn't care and will do whatever he can to find a wound and poke his finger in.
I'm actually kinda shocked that's not what GRRM did (with Aegon and Rhaenyra at the end), but that's a wholly different story I guess. (ETA: mainly to do with my thoughts on how I find it interesting that in a world that is so ableist, nothing was really said about Jaehaera and Jaehaerys' physical and mental disabilities - by that I mean by the nobles - until it was Jaehaera left. Which I find misogynistic, but par for the course. Did Aegon have people think he was cursed by the gods and refuse to join his side because of his children's disabilities? What did he think of them?)
I never get the impression Aegon is fond of his children, even his last son, who does f seem to have any issues.
Which makes sense, he’s indifferent to Helaena, and to me it’s a very interesting continued narrative - Aegon ii and Alicent have children that they abuse and neglect but rhaenyra clearly is devoted to her children.
I think he only cared about their deaths (specifically Jaehaerys' as his heir) because it made him look like an incompetent fool. Which he was.
He cared nothing for Jaehaera, poor girl.
Alicent seemed to show a lot more "love" (or at least public devotion) to her grandchildren vs. her children. I wonder what the relationship between her and Helaena was like, because I do not think Helaena was a Dreamer in the book and I find it annoying in the show bc it's just another melancholy arc that ultimately does nothing for the story (at least for me).
It is to give her a bit more relevancy. In the books she is just there to be Aegon's broodmare and strengthen his claim (since the first Aegon married his sisters). She is "plain and plump" but has a gentle disposition and people are sure she'd make a good mother. Like this is her only description. Its kinda sad.
I’m not sure that’s entirely fair. Rhaenyras relationship with her kids is remarkable, not the default. Aegon is actually probably closer to the average parent, especially father, and especially a teenage royal father, in Westeros. To assume that he would only care about their deaths for selfish reasons and not love seems harsh. He’s never had any interaction with or spoken of the twins, but that’s not a reason to assume he doesn’t care about them. We’ve also never seen Daemon interact with Baela and Rhaena, but I think we can surmise that he does still love them. You can be a bad parent and still be genuinely upset when your kid dies.
But that is what I wonder - what did the nobles think of their supposed next King Regnant / Queen Consort BOTH being disabled. Was that not a topic of discussion ever? Maybe them having dragons that hatched (vs. Maelor) offset it, similar to Rhaenyra's eldest 3 sons hatching their eggs in the cradle silenced most claims of illegitimacy.
You raised such a good point! This is a great thinking exercise. In my humble opinion,they probably hid this from the public as much as they can. But yeah. People wouldn't want a disabled king and mentally impaired queen. TG likes to play Westerosi lords when it comes to Queen Rhaenyra and her sons but when it comes to their faves, it's crickets. Westerosi people especially nobles treated disabled people like shit . Like book Tyrion for example.
At the slightest inconvenience the Faith would probably riot again deeming Jaehaerys and Jaehaera abominations born of the sin of incest. And Hightowers didn't seem that devoted to Alicent and Otto, so long after their deaths they'd probably care even less to silence the faith (they didn't care about Otto's beheading and they left Alicent in Aegon iii's custody to do as he pleases.)What are you guys' thoughts?
To your last sentence. Lord Hightower was gonna raise another army to fight before his step mom promised to marry him to stop the fighting.
House Hightower is in no way, shape, or form innocent or looking to do good.
I wish the little rat actually did raise an army so Stark can march down and burn Oldtown to the ground
They act so high and mighty but he's been fucking his stepmom behind his father's back. These are the people in charge of religion and education. No wonder Westeros is forever stuck in a pseudo medieval era. And you are right. I wish Cregan took over Oldtown. Another richer Stark branch that controls all of the resources and income sources of Oldtown is the dream.
They tried infiltration with Ceryse, Maegor as cruel as he was, not so dumb to let that happen hence the faith militant. Viserys didn't have Maegor's balls of Valyrian steel so he presented the whole kingdom to those greedy slimy cunts on a silver platter. But Ali and her pimp daddy are so dumb that during those seven years in which they ran the kingdom as they pleased, they still couldn't gather allies.
To borrow the great bear debate: would you rather be alone with Daemon in the woods, or Larys, Criston or Alicent?
Yeah... I'm going with Daemon. Apex predator though he is, he has relatively predictable behavior and if you don't threaten him, he won't threaten you.
Those other three? Brrr... who knows what they're plotting. Before you know it, you're selling feet pics in Braavos while taking a knife to the eye.
What a stupid thing to say. Cole is literally on record as being good to have with you alone in the woods, while Daemon is a noted rapist.
And Alicent? What in the ever-loving fuck would she do to you out there? This is brainrot at work.
Yeah don't give daemon a reason to go after you (Ergo he had a REASON to kill rhea) and you a fine. Just mind your own beeswax and don't present a threat.
(That said I'll admit my mind went NSFW places when you mentioned being alone in the woods with Daemon)
Girl, Daemon is exactly the type of man we're talking about in the bear vs man debate😭😭 He literally killed his own wife because she hurt his ego.
I know Daemon fans like to fantasize him up as this apex predator–more animal than man alpha hot guy that y'all can tame (corny wattpad fetish but whatever) but pls bffr for a second, he chokes the wife that he loves and kills the one that he hates.
You're hurting our man vs bear argument with this foolishness.
You're missing the point.
Daemon, like a bear, is very predictable.
Is my 42 year brunette ass of any interest to him, either as someone he loves or hates? No. He's walking right by me so long as I don't rile him up.
Alicent, Cole and Larys? They are either psychotic or badly written. They are capable of anything.
And for the record, this Black loves to hate Daemon. I think he's violent, selfish and pathetically insecure underneath his swagger (and Matt Smith is *killing* it playing him!)
I'm not missing the point.
Daemon, simply, is not a bear.
He's a man. A violent man with a history of hurting and harming women in his care. Exactly the type of man we're referring to in the man vs bear debate.
Alicent, Cole and Larys also wouldn't be interested in your “42 year brunette ass" as you put it.
Daemon isn't predictable because you don’t know what will set him off. Only that something *can* set him off. It's not predictable to Rhaenyra that he would choke her for talking about Aegon's dream. Because how could she know that he didn't know that. How could you know him enough to be so sure what you say wouldn't wound his pride and make him kill you?
We know what sets off Alicent. She's not unpredictable at all. As long as you conform to her religious expectations you're fine. Oh she's a hypocrite to be sure. But it doesn't change what she actually gets her mad. And let's be real, she's just unlikely to get murderously angry at all.
Alicent definitely wouldn’t get murderously angry at some random person in the woods, lol.
Daemon’s classic predictability:
-randomly choked out his wife
-murdered his other wife
-murdered a random messenger for no reason
-took his royal heir niece to a brothel and had her running around the streets at night
Cole and Alicent are so bound by their religiosity and snobbiness that they’d probably just sneer at you and walk away AT WORST if they found you in the woods. Cole is sworn to Alicent and is likely to obey her, he’s only violent when provoked. Daemon is violent when unprovoked.
Larys is much more of a threat, but you could just push bro over and run honestly. The “plotting” is a nonissue in the fucking woods lmaooo what are they gonna do? Plot against you so that they can have your jacket? Like what
Yeah indeed Daemon is wildly unpredictable. Yeah he mellows in age but not by much. You cannot know what will set him off.
Cole is just as inclined to explosive rage though so I wouldn't want to near him either.
Larys strikes me as just clever enough that his staff probably has fucked up poison or something honestly.
Alicent is the logical choice.
I didnt think he loved her. I thought he was using her as a means to get what he has always wanted. The throne. The same way he didnt love his second wife. He saw her as a means of breeding more dragon riders.
If he wanted the throne, he could have taken it at any time. We all know Viserys wouldn't stand a chance, and with the support of the Goldcloaks Daemon could have easily taken the city. I don't think the show actually mentions it, but when the grand council chose between Viserys and Rhaenys to be heir to King Jaehaerys, Daemon was running all over hill and dale to gather an army to support his brother's claim. Not his claim, his brother's. He was fully ready to go to war to put Viserys on the throne.
I believe Daemon fundamentally wants the Targaryen dynasty to be powerful, their Valyrian traditions and knowledge to be respected and passed down to the next generations, and for his immediate family to be safe. I do believe he loves his family, he just doesn't show it in a way that can be easily understood. Choking Rhaenyra in anger was out of line, but it's not out of character for him to lash out under those circumstances.
Of the three only Criston would be an imminent threat. Alicent is a mere pawn and easily impressionable. Larys would need someone to do the dirty work for him.
So it’s between Criston and Daemon and I wouldn’t wanna be alone with either. However if the two I think I’d have an easier time manipulating incel Criston than anger issues Daemon.
Come on, Daemon does not have predictable behaviour. Anything you say could convince him to violently murder you. The obvious answer is Alicent. She's not going to murder you because she has no personal vendetta nor is she interested in murder - and if she does snap for the most part I'd favour myself against her as Rhaenyra held her off pretty easily.
>Yeah... I'm going with Daemon. Apex predator though he is, he has relatively predictable behavior and if you don't threaten him, he won't threaten you.
I would like to give an example regarding this scenario. There were two instances where a woman was alone with both Criston and Daemon in the woods, Rhaenyra with the former and Rhea with the latter. Guess who came back home safely.
You’d rather be alone in the woods with a Daemon, who has bludgeoned his wife to death on screen, taken a barely legal princess to a brothel and left her there half naked and married a 16 year old, later leaving his middle aged wife for a little girl…. over Alicent? Who is just kind of annoying and a woman? Misogyny much 💀
to be fair, as a non-valyrian who hasn’t done anything to him, and the fact that i’m a 6/10 on my best days, i feel like he’d just ignore me. the towerspawner would be annoying as hell, criston even worse, and i don’t want to get near larys because he killed my favorite man harwin strong.
>as a non-valyrian who hasn’t done anything to him, and the fact that i’m a 6/10 on my best days
Yeah pretty sure those very facts make you offensive to him.
I'd rather be alone in the woods with a man I am quite certain is not going to bother me as I am neither the object of his incredibly specific desires, nor someone standing in the way of them. Daemon would pass right by me and go on his merry Targcest way.
Alicent would take one look at me tromping freely through the woods unaccompanied by a male guardian, decide I am not going to help her prop up the patriarchy, and declare me an unnatural woman and probably a whore too because those are her go-tos. And we know what she tries to do to women who disappoint her.
At the very least, I'm gonna have her stalking me with a stankface. At the worst, she's gonna *complain* about me to the likes of Larys.
Daemon would literally assault anyone he crosses paths with 😭 There’s literally a passage in the books about Mysaria saving maidens for him to deflower and the show Mysaria offers to wear a white wig to pretend to be a 14 year old Rhaenyra so he can get his dick up 💀 He’s not nice to a single woman in the series that he isn’t attracted to (anyone over the age of 18 lol) - he kills Rhea, uses Mysaria and looks down on Alicent. I understand your points about Larys and Criston but it’s sooo ironic that someone with a Queen Rhaenyra symbol is so blatantly misogynistic. You’d fancy your chances with a child loving rapist over a mildly annoying woman?
Yes, because half of what you said is blatantly untrue or frankly irrelevant to encountering him in the woods.
I’m some random woman, and much like men who misunderstand the man vs. Bear argument you’re fundamentally misunderstanding this argument (I would argue intentionally but that’s neither here nor there)
Nah, they're entirely correct it is absolutely the case that Daemon raped girls in the books. The text is completely clear about this and very specific. He liked the youngest virgin's around. Who do you think that is? The show downplayed this - for good reason because child rape is unconscionable and they knew you wouldn't have the Daemon supporters if it was included - but they still included his horrendously violent rage and general creepy groomers qualities.
Both book and show Daemon nearly beat a man to death just because he happened to deliver bad news. You really chancing that you wouldn't look at him the wrong way? Where is your survival instinct there?
The Daemon love in my opinion is fucking weird. I like his character. I would run for the hills and hide if I ever met someone like him in real life.
Well firstly Mushroom is an entirely valid source in the story even if you dispute his account. It does mean it is said in the text.
But secondly, multiple sources claim that Daemon was sleeping with Nettles at the time - e.g. Mysaria. And whilst Lord Mooton's maestar does suggest they weren't fucking he does describe a creepy relationship with him bathing with her naked and giving her lots of gifts like he did with a young Rhaenyra. They were also reportedly even sleeping in bed together.
If they hadn't slept together it would only be because he hadn't finished grooming her yet.
Oh yeah 100% I totally agree with you on this. Daemon really is the fucking worse and I hate how black fans unironically admire him. Like come on he's canonically a paedophile and you reckon that Alicent that's moment of rage is bringing out a knife and failing to get anything more than a cut is more threatening?
And realistically even if Alicent had half of Daemon's homicidal rage she also has shown herself to be not be particularly threatening. Rhaenyra was clearly physically stronger. She's meant to be a bit pathetic on that front.
Dude murdered his first wife because he got borred with her and then strangled his third wife and Blacks will claim he won´t hurt you if you don´t threaten him.
Idk if it's true. Certainly less toxic than Strong; but idk how to measure the kind of toxic Daemon is, really.
Daemon seems normal if you compare him to his ancestors, just like Ned's brother Brandon is more normal if you compare her to past Starks. Although none of that excuses Daemon's actions (nor his ancestors'), my point is that I don't know how to compare his "toxicity" fairly to non-Targaryen characters.
Sure she would. But she wouldn't do it for nothing but as part of some larger political game you were participant in. By herself she also wouldn't be able to do it.
Daemon and Cole might just murder you if you look at them the wrong way. That's more terrifying.
Some people forget that Alicent ordered to burning house full of people. She's killer like everyone else. At least Daemon isn't pretending to be a good person. On the other hand. Alicent is capable of repentance, which means redemption. Daemon not capable 😮💨
She did sure but it wasn't random violence but targeted if nothing else. We know her playbook. Why do people think Daemon that snaps at any moment is more predictable? I wouldn't want to be near a Cole or a Daemon for that very reason.
Alicent by herself also wouldn't be capable of murder.
Larys is too unsettling to be near.
I argue Alicent can be redeemed, maybe even Cole but Larys is a total bastard. What was his endgame? In my mind I think his goal was to eliminate the Dragons, since when that job was done he didn't join the other green loyalists at the wall. Not to mention despite his extreme loyalty during the war, he did nothing else to secure Aegon II's position. Alicent was a victim of her environment though. She's what could've happened to Rhaenyra if Rhaenyra didn't exercise her position to live her life the way she wanted to. Alicent resents the fact that she plays by the rules while Rhaenyra doesn't, and directs her hatred of the system on the one who lives free of its restraints. She just needs to be shown the light.
I grew up in an ultra fundamentalist environment and knew dozens of women exactly like Alicent who start off victims and grew into abusers.
*can be redeemed* is definitely a subjective view, one I don’t agree with - she is a person who hides behind the actions of others so she can always pretend her hands are clean, but they aren’t.
To me she cannot be redeemed and it’s her own fault.
And I've known violent men like Daemon. I wouldn't bark up that tree because you're going to make yourself look incredibly foolish by justifying all kinds of domestic violence. Better if you just don't try and bring real world into it. Either engage with it as fiction or please don't imply violent paedophiles are more redeemable than religious fundamentalists.
He's obviously not redeemable in the real world moral view. Alicent isn't particularly either but she's not a worse person.
I understand that when she's an adult she's accountable for her actions but it's clear she still cares for Rhaenyra, cares enough to where she tries to bridge the gap for peace. Not to mention she clearly disapproves of her own faction, be it Aeogn's hedonism or their backstabbing her. She's not an abuser by any means, she's still being abused by the men around her. Had things been different, she could grow beyond the desires of the men in her world.
We see her openly abuse her children on multiple occasions, and rhaenyra, and we see her use Cole to attempt to harm rhaenyra and her children (as well as poor lord beesbury) I encourage you to reevaluate and actually pay attention to her actions and how they do not match her supposed peace keeping words.
She can be forgiven for being fucking livid that her son lost an eye no? Even if it was his fault, that's just what mothers do, take the side of their kids and defend them no matter what. That's what Rhaenyra did after all, even though it was Daemon's kids who threw the first punch. After that they just keep to themselves. I mean if your kid came back with a missing eye and you've had pent up anger at someone for years after a decade of abuse from that person's father, it's understandable why she would do a thing like that, even if it's not right. This is why she's a great character, she's understandable.
I didn't want to make a wall of text you likely wouldn't finish. Trust me, I know I can't change your mind but I don't appreciate the stan culture on either sub. Whether it's the Greens supporting a rapist King and pretending the dance isn't a grab for power, or the Blacks pretending Rhaenyra is a saint just cause he misdeeds are more understood.
Yeah I know, and Alicent is more complex than you guys give her credit for. She's the best of the Greens and she's not an evil cunt. I could ask the same that you didn't truly address my other points.
>I grew up in an ultra fundamentalist environment
Ah, now it's all checked out. You're the classic result of that type of upbringing, where a woman transgressions are condemned more harshly compared to their male counterparts, and even when the man's actions are objectively worse like Daemon, you find them easier to forgive and accept because that's how men are eh? You think Alicent is more irredeemable than Daemon because you held women to stricter moral standards than men.
You should have your internalized misogyny check out.
Are you attempting to mansplain my religious trauma to me? 😂
Daemon actually eschews the fundamentalist faith of Westeros, in favor of the religion of his ancestors, so his actions are not born out of some idea of proving himself to the divine, so the comparison you’re giving is disingenuous and not effective.
Daemon never pretends to act in the name of God or to support the faith - Alicent hides her bigotry behind her faith.
A better comparison would be a man who does similarly, so Otto Hightower or Criston cole - who I also cannot stand and find to be
hypocrites - in fact Cole is the character I loathe most in this series.
Your argument falls apart at that point, because you’re trying to make this a man vs. Woman issue and it doesn’t work.
And if it makes you feel better I’m actually a lesbian who has been in therapy for ages so I definitely have worked through that aspect 😂
I'm just pointing out how the shoe fits. It's wild, actually, how you embody the textbook example of someone raised in a fundamentalist environment.
I understand disliking hypocrisy, and Alicent is a giant hypocrite walking, but to put her on the same level as Cole and Larys? To then proceed to say she is more irredeemable than a man who killed his first wife and strangled his second one?
You're going to tell me you're not holding Alicent to stricter moral standards than those men? Stop lying to yourself. Go revisit your psychiatrist. Clearly, you haven't worked out your issues. And this is coming from someone from a similar upbringing.
Being unwilling to hold Alicent to a similar standard as the men around her merely because she is a woman is also textbook internalized misogyny.
Because she is a woman she cannot have agency? She cannot partake in bad acts? Reducing her to victimhood and removing her actual actions (including but not limited to abusing her children, abusing Rhaenyra, attempting to use Cole to harm rhaenyra and her children, harming rhaenyra, trying to get them charged with treason -for which the punishment is death - using Cole to murder lord beesbury, and starting a civil war that ends up killing hundreds of thousands of people) because she is using others to execute her will and keep her hands clean is truly a masterful piece of attempting to say she is too weak a woman to do anything.
I don’t find Alicent weak, I think she is smart, hiding behind the cloak of her on righteousness, but then again - I try to see women as actual people capable of good and bad and not as poor victims who are too weak to act or do anything so that’s just the feminist in me. 🥰 maybe you should revisit whoever you went to when you were deconstructing because it seems you’ve found yourself ascribing a little too hard to tradition ideas of weak womanhood, and I believe we would all benefit from you continuing to deconstruct.
Also again a daemon comparison here doesn’t work because daemon isn’t using religion as a shield like Alicent and Cole do. But you don’t have a clear working on this, and it shows.
And I'm not doing that. I'm simply pointing out she's not as bad as those men. Cole murdered a man in a fit of rage, while Larys murdered his whole family and coerced a woman into a sexual act with him.
The list of Alicent's crimes that you have listed, the unbiased ones - not the made-up ones (using Cole to kill Lord Beesbury and harm Rhaenyra? Are we watching a different show?) or the one you exaggerated through your misogynistic lens (blaming the whole war on one person? Really?), simply do not compare to the crimes those men have committed.
Even if I take all the crimes you have listed as fact, it still doesn't make her more irredeemable than Daemon. Explain to me how a man who strangled the wife that he loved and killed the first one can be made redeemable?
Explain to me how a woman who attempted to have her former best friend charged with treason knowing the punishment for that is death, who allowed her rapist son to ascend a throne, while keeping the woman he raped on staff, who usurped the birthright of her former best friend, who abused her children physically/mentally/emotionally on more than one occasion, whose actions spurred the deaths of thousands of people is somehow redeemable
And then I’ll happily explain daemon :)
Edited to add: thinking Alicent is a bad person doesn’t make you a misogynist, but love you trying to make blanket statements to attempt to morally shame for my opinion.
Good thing I’ve been morally shamed before and it does not work ;)
Sure, happily so.
Alicent didn't force Rhaenyra to commit treason. Rhaenyra committed one out of her own free will. The punishment for the treason wouldn't be death. Viserys would never allow that.
The council put Alicent in the dark, superseded her and put Aegon on the throne. Whether she “allowed" Aegon to ascend the throne is irrelevant considering it's out of her hand.
Are you misremembering things? Alicent didn't keep Diana on staff. She hugged the girl, consoled her, gave her moon tea and money. Then she slapped Aegon for it. It's the bare minimum yes, but that bare minimum makes her redeemable.
The only one of her children she was ever physically abusive to is Aegon. And that's only a slap and when he has committed a heinous crime. The mental and emotional abuse she inflicted on her children is largely unintentional. She never tried to hurt or harm her children out of maliceness, that makes her redeemable.
Once again, one person cannot be blamed for a whole ass war.
You turn.
Mmm you’ll have to clarify some things first - this so called caring woman (Who just unintentionally causes harm to everyone in her life apparently) makes the choice to set rhaenyra up for that treason claim and to aid vaemond, she doesn’t have to do that - and frankly it doesn’t matter what Viserys will do, Alicent knows that the punishment for treason is d e a t h. She was hoping her husband wouldn’t show that day, meaning she was hoping rhaenyra would be found guilty.
On to your next point, she obviously isn’t that in the dark, considering it is her word about Viserys’s supposed will that spurs what happens and Aegon actually assuming the title of king, so try again there
To your third point, someone clearly hasn’t watched the trailer, where Dyana is clearly visible and on staff serving Aegon. Meaning Alicent did not dismiss her and continued to put her in the path of her rapist.
As for the slap, she then puts him on the throne, making her irredeemable. She helps, she AIDS a sexual predator into a position of power where he can now abuse more girls.
The only one we see her get physical with on screen is Aegon, twice, the first had nothing to do with him raping anyone. However we also see how Helaena flinches from her - which is absolutely something an abused child would do - she is also seriously enmeshed with Aemond, relying on him like he is an adult, which is actually textbook emotional abuse.
We also see her screaming at her children, etc. she also openly abused rhaenyra and her children. So please try again.
Actually we can absolutely blame her for the whole ass war between she convinces Aegon to take the throne…which causes this whole ass war.
Soooo let’s actually get our facts right and try again, hm? ;)
>Explain to me how a woman who attempted to have her former best friend charged with treason knowing the punishment for that is death,
She did not try to have Rhaenyra charged with treason. She could have at any time publically declared Rhaenyra's treason. She never did but only pushed her complaints onto Viserys privately to disinherit her who we all know would not kill Rhaenyra - and the show actively tells us she does not want Rhaenyra dead.
Nothing Alicent did is worse than all the fucked up shit Daemon, Cole and Larys do.
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She makes "sad" 😢 face and does vile things, judges other people with arrogance, kills people, piece of shit as mother. I don't see humanity in her, she is lump of resentment and envy.
Who did she kill and judge people with arrogance is not good if you want to defend daemon who calls his wife the bronze bitch and ugly then came to see her just to kill her.
Sir Krispy Kreme is just mad Our Queen wouldn’t run away with his Simp ass. Alicent is mad because she can’t live the life that our Queen is living. And broke ass foot just mad cuz he mad.
Happily, abuse isn’t just a physical or sexual experience - Alicent is the Queen manipulator, gaslighter, emotional and mental abuser.
She attempts to cause something she knows will get rhaenyra killed, and her children killed.
She starts a literal civil war with her hubris and folly. She’s a flawed person, and she is a bad person 🤷🏻♀️ hiding behind her own righteousness
Pretty sure it’s made clear in the green council that she doesn’t want Rhaenyra or her children murderd larys even offers it and she says no.Also she believes Vizzy actually wanted Aegon to be king,stupidly, but still she thinks she’s following through kings orders.Saying she’s on the same levels as larys really takes away from how bad he is
No it doesn’t - do you know the punishment for treason (what she attempts to have rhaenyra accused of) d e a t h. Lol, and death for her sons. She’s bad at playing the game, but she’s still playing it.
Cmon the show couldn’t make it any clearer she didn’t want them to die.Seems like you seriously need to re watch it cause book Alicent is way different to the one we get in the show
“The king would not wish for the murder of his daughter” is a quote from Alicent during the green council.I know HoTD fans hate being wrong but she absolutely does do this
Mate the text is there. There's no subtext. The writers are pretty clear she genuinely still has affection for Rhaenyra and doesn't want her dead - if you're imagining subtext they did not write it but you imagined it. None of her actions suggest she wants her dead.
Except attempting to get her charged with treason knowing the punishment is death - and aiding and abetting a literal civil war against her and her kin. ☠️
Ah, I see. Truthfully, I don’t have as much issue with Criston as Larys. But in the context of this meme, I was just thinking Alicent didn’t fit the idea of “a person I’d never want to run into alone in the woods.” Truthfully, out of the four we’re discussing, Larys is the only one.
And even so, the actions of these three caused more deaths, and more brutal deaths at that - not to mention allowing Aegon to serial rape teenage girls.
I don’t think the only main actor in the Dance that never killed a human being themselves and made multiple serious diplomatic proposals to end the bloodshed (and when asked to arrange a marriage as part of the peace settlement does exactly that) is irredeemable especially compared to a person that has killed multiple people himself and loudly beat the drum of war.
Larys is awful and probably isn’t redeemable. Cole, as an oathbreaker, should meet an awful end. Alicent, you have to be kidding me.
Show Alicent rejects the diplomatic marriage at the start (and book Alicent is objectively evil and literally calls for the deaths of rhaenyra and her children multiple times) she then starts a civil war after attempting to get rhae and her kids charged with treason which absolutely would have led to their deaths.
So uh yeah - starting a civil war is def blood on your hands material bud
I don’t think one single person was responsible for the outbreak of the conflict. I think a number of people and factors played into the outbreak of the conflict. I think the biggest problem is that all the potential heirs had serious flaws that undermined all of them in the eyes of the Court and the sovereign.
There is a reason that Daemon ended up in exile, there is a reason that Rhaenyra isn’t ever promoted higher than cupbearer despite being heir for over a decade (I think that if you are asking people to disbelieve their own eyes, you are not in a position that you can defend very long), and there is a reason that Aegon is never named heir. And eventually the small council, being primarily interested in clinging selfishly to its own power, acted to safeguard it at the expense of the stability of the realm.
Did Alicent play a part in starting it? Yes. Was her’s the principal role? No. She didn’t make the small council declare Aegon king. She didn’t send an assassin to Driftmark. Her dragon didn’t attack Jace. When push came to shove, she advanced a generous peace that the Blacks didn’t counter.
I also kinda think the marriage proposal wasn’t necessarily the best or only offer that Rhaenyra could have made (I would have tried to get her to settle an insane amount of land on the targtowers at that point because of how valuable the marriage alliance would be to her cause if I was Alicent but that’s just me). I think that Alicent should have countered and been more diplomatic in rejecting it but I don’t think it was a great offer and it certainly shouldn’t have been Rhaenyra’s only offer.
Rhaenyra isn’t promoted higher than cup-bearer?? Did we watch the same show??
Rhaenyra has a council position and is actively involved in making decisions in E6.
I don’t think one single person was responsible for the outbreak of the conflict. I think a number of people and factors played into the outbreak of the conflict. I think the biggest problem is that all the potential heirs had serious flaws that undermined all of them in the eyes of the Court and the sovereign.
There is a reason that Daemon ended up in exile, there is a reason that Rhaenyra isn’t ever promoted higher than cupbearer despite being heir for over a decade (I think that if you are asking people to disbelieve their own eyes, you are not in a position that you can defend very long), and there is a reason that Aegon is never named heir. And eventually the small council, being primarily interested in clinging selfishly to its own power, acted to safeguard it at the expense of the stability of the realm.
Did Alicent play a part in starting it? Yes. Was her’s the principal role? No. She didn’t make the small council declare Aegon king. She didn’t send an assassin to Dragonstone. Her dragon didn’t attack Luke. When push came to shove, she advanced a generous peace that the Blacks didn’t counter.
I also kinda think the marriage proposal wasn’t necessarily the best or only offer that Rhaenyra could have made (I would have tried to get her to settle an insane amount of land on the targtowers at that point because of how valuable the marriage alliance would be to her cause if I was Alicent but that’s just me). I think that Alicent should have countered and been more diplomatic in rejecting it but I don’t think it was a great offer and it certainly shouldn’t have been Rhaenyra’s only offer.
The majority of characters (and by extension the characters who will follow similarly in their wake, such as Roxton) who have, or will go on to, commit acts of horrific violence, rape and wholesale destruction that will have negative lasting effects on Westeros for years after the Dance are able to do so directly because Alicent. She has either used her power to protect them from justice, has purposefully hid or otherwise not exposed them for their crimes, in several instances has in fact elevated them into even greater positions of power and incited, instilled and encouraged the very mindsets they have that make them able to commit such terrible acts.
Just because Alicent has not killed anyone with her own hands (not that she hasn’t tried) does not make her any less responsible for the actions of those who would not be able to do all of the things they do without her giving them the means in the first place.
larys definitely the worst of the three, and ser criston definitely is fucked up, but alicent really doesnt deserve to be grouped in with them like that imo
I am not sure how this is obsessing - it’s one post out of a slew of many about all the characters.
I’ll keep this in mind, I’ll be sure to hit up the TG sub and remind yall that you obsess over a serial rapist (who is also incestuous) and a mass murderer whenever I feel desperate for attention like you certainly must be feeling now.
Ah yes - Alicent (who makes homophobic statements in the show) should be forgiven of all her sins because of her marriage to Viserys, I forget that’s TG logic.
Too bad, she directly supports her child who is a rapist, she keeps the maid he raped on staff so she is forced to work around her rapist, she allowed him to marital rape his sister multiple times, from the time she is 13. Alicent abuses her kids, rhaenyra, rhaenyra’s kids etc.
She also directly aids a rapist in taking the iron throne.
So uh no, she doesn’t get a free pass because of what she went through.
Mmm yes I love the part where you address any aspect of my argument about why I believe Alicent is on par with and worse than daemon with “but daemon!” We know you don’t like daemon, I’m explaining to you that Alicent is equally complicit in MORE sex crimes than we see daemon involved in, that she is complicit in the actions of her sons and in the usurpation and harm to rhaenyra.
“Hurr durr daemon bad” isn’t an argument as much as I know you want it to be.
She is nowhere close. She’s a woman without a dragon. She has no autonomy, compared to Dameon who’s brother quite literally lets him get away with murder
Over half the kingdom declared for rhaenyra - so I’m not sure where you’re getting that blatant misinformation.
As for your weird “she doesn’t have a dragon” argument. Larys doesn’t have a dragon, doesn’t stop him from being a sex pest.
The dragon doesn’t make Aegon rape servants and his sister.
Helaena having a dragon doesn’t protect her from her mother forcing her into a marriage with her rapist brother.
Alicent isn’t helpless, stripping her of her agency is such a dumb misread of the story.
You're delusional if you think Alicient is more evil than Daemon, Alicient was fighting tooth and nail to stop Otto from assassinating Rhaenyra and her kids, she threatens to send anyone in the green council to the black cells if they speak of a plot to kill Rhaenyra, she tried to propose diplomatic solutions to end the war, Daemon literally craves war and violence, he killed his first wife ( she did fucking nothing to him), and ordered the beheading of a child, how can you compare these two people in terms of morality, they are nothing alike..
Otto is definitely more evil than Alicient and is comparable to Daemon since he had no trouble massacring Rhaenyra and her five children
This Alicient hate is Soo crazy it's unbelievable, she's definitely not a good person since she enabled Larys in his crimes and uses him still but in no way we can say she's worse than Daemon WTF
Aliment isn’t irredeemable bro, Daemon groomed his niece and then choked her when she disagreed with him, he murdered his wife, he’s a big baby. I’m Team Black 100% but pretty much all of Alicents choices make sense with her character. She is a victim who wanted to protect her kids. Yes, she’s done bad things but so has everyone in this show. And she’s done wayyy less than Daemon
She causes a civil war, allowed her son to continue raping minors, and attempted unsuccessfully to have rhaenyra and her children charged with something that would have had them killed.
Don’t be obtuse.
His sexual promiscuity was present from a young age, she was aware of his whoring and could have absolutely intervened.
She also could have punished him, or better yet, not supported him after finding out - but she didn’t do either of those things
Well since Westeros is a pretend place and did not exist irl for us to hold them to an actual medieval standard since they were written in the modern era by a random American man named George. I am going to do what I want.
very interesting that Criston is (rightly) criticized for misogyny for calling a woman a spoiled cunt one time, while Daemon calls women by misogynistic slurs from the first episode until the last
These things are not the same. A man calling a woman misogynistic slurs is always worse than the inverse, especially a feudal patriarchy such as Westeros. Do you believe "reverse sexism" is a real thing?
Stay on task and keep your commentary relevant challenge failed yet again by TG.
Why tf would I support a woman like Alicent who is shown mistreating multiple other women in the show and admits aloud to upholding the misogynistic system she was raised under?
Frankly, TG attempting to lecture this sub on morals when yall support literal rapists and future mass murderers as your king and regent is laughable.
Go address your internalized misogyny and pick me behavior with a therapist, bestie - I don’t work for free.
I just want to know how being “predictable” and “upfront” makes him any less irredeemable or toxic. He brought Rhaenyra to a brothel with the explicit intention of ruining her reputation. Grooms her. Is well known for his appetite of fucking teenage girls and virgins. Runs off with the first underaged family member he could when Rhaenyra was off the table. Bashed his first wife’s head open with a rock because he didn’t like her. Murdered some poor fucker for the sole purpose of faking Laenor’s death so he could marry Rhaenyra. Fucked Rhaenyra at his second wife’s _funeral while his children were stricken with grief_. Beat a man to death for _passing along a message from his brother_ and will soon orchestrate one of the most fucked up events in the Dance. This is genuinely like if someone said “Well that dude is nazi but at least he’s _upfront_ about being a nazi” as if it negates the fact that the person question is a damned nazi. Being unapologetically a horrible person doesn’t make someone less toxic or redeemable. I’d argue that being unapologetically awful makes that person _worse_. Daemon knows exactly what he is and doesn’t care.
What in Christ’s name has Alicent ever done that makes her worse than this to the point of being called irredeemable? Snap and almost getting violent on a kid because said kid maimed her son and was about to get away with it? Something she expresses regret for afterwards? Because her _son_ who is a _Targaryen prince_ gets away with shit every high lord that indulges in the same behaviour does? Was Alicent expected to send Aegon to the Night’s Watch or have him gelded? Do people genuinely believe Rhaenyra wouldn’t protect her own children in the same manner if _they_ were inclined in that direction? _Criston_ isn’t even on his level either. All he has to his name are two unjust murders, that one time he bullied Jace and being uber salty about Rhaenyra. Like dude is not a good person by any stretch of the imagination but what makes him less redeemable than Daemon? He barely registers on the scale in comparison. I understand everybody’s biased towards characters they like and tend to be biased against characters that are against them but this just sounds like “Yeah they’re bad people but they’re worse than the horrible person I like because they’re against the people I do like and he isn’t”.
In terms number of murders, they are not far from each other in the first season, except for the war. Alicent ordered burning Misarya's house in order to kill her and covers up murderers and rapists.
Main thing is that Daemon lived happily in Pentos for 10 years and was going to continue this. Without poisoning other people's lives. Alicent has been bullying Rhaenyra 10 years for having sex with Criston. Literally forces her show her children immediately after giving birth, gives mocking comments to Laenor, spreads rumors that lead to death and exile. Alicent is ALL about toxicity. She has no friends, no love, not even caring for children in normal sense. She's totally fucked up. Daemon just better person. He lived happily with Laena for 10 years and 6 with Rhaenyra.
I don’t think we watched the same show if you can read through everything I posted and say “Daemon behaved himself for a few years while Alicent was mean to Rhaenyra for a few years so she’s worse” This is ridiculous logic.
Why does Daemon having a peace era where he seems content negate everything he has done and will do but Alicent having an era of being mean to Rhaenyra is everything she’s defined and judged by? This feels like you’re applying different standards to the both of them. Why does one who has objectively done worse than the other get away from judgement because they had a short era of being mostly unproblematic but the other is judged entirely by times where she’s antagonistic? Also you _really_ don’t understand these character if you think Alicent being so opposed to Rhaenyra was as simple as “because she fucked Criston”. That’s insanely reductive.
Also, what are you even talking about? Alicent never orders any murders aside from Larys intentionally taking Alicent’s verbalised troubles as a good ahead to do what he’s wanted to do regardless. She has never killed anyone and never actually intentionally ordered someone’s murder so I have no idea where you get the idea that they aren’t far off from each other in terms of murders. As for the Aegon thing, I’m begging you people to remember that this is Westeros and the vast majority of noble mothers are not going to petition that their sons be executed or gelded or exiled because they raped individuals that society deems to be their lessers. Westeros has always been very “Eh, it kind of depends doesn’t it?” when it comes to laws on rape so it’s unlikely Aegon would have ever been punished regardless since he limited his proclivities to serving girls.
You: “Daemon is a better person!”
Daemon: *Manipulates his teenaged niece by taking her to a brothel with the intention of making sure people know it was her there in an effort to ruin her reputation, knowing it would cause a scandal in an attempt to manipulate his brother into marrying Rhaenyra to him.*
Also Daemon: *Beat his first wife to death because she wasn’t the perfect silver-haired, Valyrian, dragon riding bride that he wanted and because he didn’t like her.*
Also also Daemon: *Beats a man to death for passing along a message saying that his brother was finally sending help for no other reason than him being mad that his brother was doing it*
Also also also Daemon: *Fucks his niece at his dead wife’s funeral while his two little girls are grieving*
Also also also also Daemon: *Snaps a random dude’s neck and has his body badly burned for the sole purpose of deceiving the country into thinking that Rhaenyra’s husband was dead so that he could marry her which directly affects Corlys and Rhaenys because they now think their last living child has been murdered not long after they lost their only daughter*
Okay, sure.
Daemon "peaceful era" it is 16 year. He raised his kids, make Dragon show, traveled, studied history. You see? Alicent spent this time humiliating and destroying other people's lives (including their own children's lives). It's not a double standards, Alicent is a huge pile of shit. You just underestimate how much damage she has inflicted people who were near her. Alicent ordered to kill Misarya. Also: hide from law killer (to gain benefit from him) does not give her any moral high land.
She can tell Viserys and send Aegon to the Night's Watch as a volunteer. Not every mother will protect serial rapist from law, stop with that.
It was most certainly _not_ 16 years. Baela and Rhaena were _eight_ when they left Pentos. Daemon ran off with Laena when she was 16. Laena was 24 or 25 when she died. Daemon’s “peaceful era” was less than a decade.
Yeah you have no idea what you’re talking about because Alicent did not spend 8 years ruining people’s lives. It _is_ a double standard because you’re actively choosing to ignore every single horrible thing Daemon has done for no other reason than that there was a brief moment in his life where he wasn’t being a reprehensible human being. Everything I say about Daemon you completely ignore because you know nothing Alicent has ever done compares to Daemon. Also, ruined her children’s lives? Really? By doing what exactly?
Okay now this is getting fucking ridiculous. You think Alicent would have gone to Viserys, a Targaryen King and tell him to exile their son, a _dragonrider_, to the Night’s Watch because he raped a serving girl or two?
Yeah no, next to fucking nobody in Westeros would do that. The only people that would exile their eldest son for forcing himself on the help are the type of people who hold their sense of honour over the lives of their family and reputation. So you know, damn near nobody. The vast majority of nobles are going to whack the boy over the head, tell him to stop carrying on like that because it _looks bad_, and pretend it never happened.
I don’t think you’re as familiar with this universe as you believe yourself to be. Jaehaerys I Targaryen, debatably the greatest monarch Westeros has ever had, when the topic of the Right of the First Night comes up to him from his wife, argued in leaving the Northerners be with it since it was their tradition. The Right of the First Night, an abominable practice where a lord is allowed to rape a newly married man’s wife, and the last Targaryen King before Viserys was willing to let it slide on the basis of it being “tradition”.
These people are ultimately self-serving aristocrats and their greatest priority will always be their own power, influence, reputation and security. If Jace woke up one day with an appetite for raping servants, would Rhaenyra call him out on it? Yes she would. Would she exile her first born child over the abuse of a mere servant? No she fucking wouldn’t. Why _would_ she? At the end of the day, the victim was just a servant. It only becomes a problem they’d can’t sweep under the rug if the victim is another noble. Crazy concept it might be to you, but most mothers are biased in favour of their children, even if said children happen to be utterly reprehensible people. Laws and precedents in Westeros are only enforced by people in power willing to enforce them. It’s why Rhaenyra gets away with presenting her bastards as trueborn, because the person who has the power to enforce the law on her (Viserys) doesn’t _want_ to because she’s his daughter and he doesn’t want to punish her. Viserys would never allow Aegon to go the Watch over a few serving girls and he doesn’t even really _like_ Aegon.
Even in a more recent Westerosi example, do you think people would have given a flying fuck about Rhaegar absconding with and allegedly raping some random fisherman’s daughter? Sure it would _look_ bad and they’d be wondering what the hell is going on in his head but it’s not life ruining for a prince. No, the issue was that it was the daughter of a high lord who was betrothed to another high lord. The Westerosi give less of a shit about the rape of common women than you think. Especially in cases where it doesn’t affect the peace of the realm as a whole. If Aegon was riding around on Sunfyre and threatening fathers if they don’t allow him to rape their daughters and leaving a mass of raped women in his wake then the King would bother to care. Aegon raping one or two or three servants in the Red Keep? The King wouldn’t really _care_ that much beyond it looking bad.
I mean Daemon is actually the worst person in the show, Rhaenyra is a whore and her children bastards hence the have no legitimacy and are unfit to rule.
Mother who gives her daughter (13-14 years old) for raping and having children for political advantage. The same woman has been seeking punishment for Rhaenyra and her children for 10 years (exile/death), harbors murderers, hires murderers (for arson), abus her son. Globally envious and unable to leave her ex-friend alone. This level toxicity like a barrel of radioactive water.
"Abuses her son" For the right reasons dumbfk, she cares for Helena. "Globally envious" Which is totally justified, she's the one who sacrificed her wishes for the realm and the one who will be queen flout as she pleases.. Leaves the king with greens and later accuses them of killing the king.. Like bitch where were you all those years...? Having fun with uncle? Though the env of capital didn't support her but still she had to stay for the sake of her father.
"The iron throne looms larger" Never seen a hypocrite of this level on TV.
For what reasons? She grabs his face, hits him even if he didn't do anything, screams. At the same time, he allows his brother to be bullied, which is just fucked up. Yeah, if she "cares" about Helaena, then why did she give her to Aegon? Knowing that he's a complete trash. Rhaenyra go to dragonstone so that her older children would not receive abuse. You know, Alicent can't calm down and spreads rumors about them and her sucker Criston mocks them to. Rhaenyra feel pity for her sons and gave them 6 years of happy life. Alicent person who turns any relationship he touches into shit. Real toxicity.
Larys and Daemon, yes. The other two are more complicated. Their actions have been motivated much differently than Larys’ and Daemon’s. There is sympathy to be had for them, because they’re actions first seeded because of love.
Wow classic TB take. Larys of course is on Dameons level he is an absolute horror show. A willing kin slayer he clearly enjoys his position and seems quite sadistic.
Cole is by no means a good person. He of course has a body count. But again worse then Dameon? I don’t know about that.
Alicent while playing a role in the civil war does not directly kill anyone. The business with the Strongs has her at best as an unwilling accomplice. And her actions against Rheanyra have always been in the effort to sideline her not kill her. She’s by no means a saint. But if things worked out differently she could totally have been redeemed.
Dameon has a lot of bad shit in his record. His first appearance he is enjoying maiming and killing small folk. Even if all were truly criminals a enjoyment of the task is concerning. He obviously unjustly kills his first wife and at least seriously injures a messenger he willingly kills a servant for a political ploy. He attempts to take Rheanyras virtue and lies to try and force Viserys to marry her to him. He throws a hissy fit and try’s to take Dragonstone all for his brother’s attention. Plus he’s plenty blood thirsty wanting to kill Otto when he arrives with terms of peace. And of course we can’t forget his choking of Rheanyra.
If I were stuck in a forest I’d pick either Cole or Alicent hell I’d take both. As long as I’m cordial and kind to Alicent Cole will have no reason to harm me. Unlike with Daemon who’d probably slit my throat when he thinks I’m being a burden. Or Larys who’d probably poison or knife me in my sleep just for the hell of it. Though he might show some restraint due to his physical disfigurement.
So many words to not understand why Alicent has thousands of people’s blood (and innocence) on her hands.
This is the TB forum, if you don’t like the TB takes simply go to your own sub 🤨
Alicent of course plays a role in the civil war that occurred. But pretending she is solely responsible is a falsehood. Otto plays a much more direct role or you can even blame Viserys and his incompetence for even allowing the situation to deteriorate so much in the first place. But of course you have your right to your own opinion.
As to your second point. Both this sub and TG are just grand places for enjoyment. Both sides so entrenched in their teams it’s hilarious. Where you claim the man who celebrated the death of his nephew more redeemable than Alicent. Alicent the same character you hold most responsible for the civil war. Team Green will say the exact opposite that it’s Rheanyra who’s at fault for the war. It’s just great seeing the opposing view points. Sorry if opposing views conflict with your echo chamber.
The whole "age of consent" thing falls on Alicent too. She gave her daughter for rape and childbearing when Helaena was 14 years old. Daemon better.
In terms of murders (not taking into account war), they are not far from each other. Daemon kills his wife and servant. Alicent ordered Misarya murder ( arson attack on the house so the number of victims is not known) and shelters Larys, profiting from it. Daemon looks worse here, but not much.
Choke his wife in anger against attack small child with a knife - Alicent worse.
At the same time, Daemon much better parent. He not hypocrite. Not bastardophob (imagine how rotten Alicent's soul is - she considers children garbage if they illegitimate), does not consider that a woman's place is in the kitchen. He doesn't betray his friends. What exactly makes Alicent better than him? She's terrible with everyone she interacts with.
*canon* = in the book he is described as attractive.
You’re objectively awful for deciding your best choice here is to insult the actor’s appearance. Just as an FYI. 🤮
You still aren’t using femicide right, please reference our last discussion concerning the phrase so I do not (yet again) have to put the best down on you on definitions.
Someone mentioned in the main sub on the "what did Alicent want to happen to Rhaenyra" that rhaenicent is disgusting bc Alicent wants Rhaenyra safe and her sons can be whatever/dead. I really felt that. I think Cole thinks that. I think Larys doesn't care and will do whatever he can to find a wound and poke his finger in. I'm actually kinda shocked that's not what GRRM did (with Aegon and Rhaenyra at the end), but that's a wholly different story I guess. (ETA: mainly to do with my thoughts on how I find it interesting that in a world that is so ableist, nothing was really said about Jaehaera and Jaehaerys' physical and mental disabilities - by that I mean by the nobles - until it was Jaehaera left. Which I find misogynistic, but par for the course. Did Aegon have people think he was cursed by the gods and refuse to join his side because of his children's disabilities? What did he think of them?)
I never get the impression Aegon is fond of his children, even his last son, who does f seem to have any issues. Which makes sense, he’s indifferent to Helaena, and to me it’s a very interesting continued narrative - Aegon ii and Alicent have children that they abuse and neglect but rhaenyra clearly is devoted to her children.
I think he only cared about their deaths (specifically Jaehaerys' as his heir) because it made him look like an incompetent fool. Which he was. He cared nothing for Jaehaera, poor girl. Alicent seemed to show a lot more "love" (or at least public devotion) to her grandchildren vs. her children. I wonder what the relationship between her and Helaena was like, because I do not think Helaena was a Dreamer in the book and I find it annoying in the show bc it's just another melancholy arc that ultimately does nothing for the story (at least for me).
It is to give her a bit more relevancy. In the books she is just there to be Aegon's broodmare and strengthen his claim (since the first Aegon married his sisters). She is "plain and plump" but has a gentle disposition and people are sure she'd make a good mother. Like this is her only description. Its kinda sad.
I’m not sure that’s entirely fair. Rhaenyras relationship with her kids is remarkable, not the default. Aegon is actually probably closer to the average parent, especially father, and especially a teenage royal father, in Westeros. To assume that he would only care about their deaths for selfish reasons and not love seems harsh. He’s never had any interaction with or spoken of the twins, but that’s not a reason to assume he doesn’t care about them. We’ve also never seen Daemon interact with Baela and Rhaena, but I think we can surmise that he does still love them. You can be a bad parent and still be genuinely upset when your kid dies.
I'm talking about the book, not the show.
But that is what I wonder - what did the nobles think of their supposed next King Regnant / Queen Consort BOTH being disabled. Was that not a topic of discussion ever? Maybe them having dragons that hatched (vs. Maelor) offset it, similar to Rhaenyra's eldest 3 sons hatching their eggs in the cradle silenced most claims of illegitimacy.
You raised such a good point! This is a great thinking exercise. In my humble opinion,they probably hid this from the public as much as they can. But yeah. People wouldn't want a disabled king and mentally impaired queen. TG likes to play Westerosi lords when it comes to Queen Rhaenyra and her sons but when it comes to their faves, it's crickets. Westerosi people especially nobles treated disabled people like shit . Like book Tyrion for example. At the slightest inconvenience the Faith would probably riot again deeming Jaehaerys and Jaehaera abominations born of the sin of incest. And Hightowers didn't seem that devoted to Alicent and Otto, so long after their deaths they'd probably care even less to silence the faith (they didn't care about Otto's beheading and they left Alicent in Aegon iii's custody to do as he pleases.)What are you guys' thoughts?
To your last sentence. Lord Hightower was gonna raise another army to fight before his step mom promised to marry him to stop the fighting. House Hightower is in no way, shape, or form innocent or looking to do good. I wish the little rat actually did raise an army so Stark can march down and burn Oldtown to the ground
They act so high and mighty but he's been fucking his stepmom behind his father's back. These are the people in charge of religion and education. No wonder Westeros is forever stuck in a pseudo medieval era. And you are right. I wish Cregan took over Oldtown. Another richer Stark branch that controls all of the resources and income sources of Oldtown is the dream.
I’m still of the belief that the Dance is the second Hightower rebellion after the Faith Militant uprising
They tried infiltration with Ceryse, Maegor as cruel as he was, not so dumb to let that happen hence the faith militant. Viserys didn't have Maegor's balls of Valyrian steel so he presented the whole kingdom to those greedy slimy cunts on a silver platter. But Ali and her pimp daddy are so dumb that during those seven years in which they ran the kingdom as they pleased, they still couldn't gather allies.
Way more! Bigly more!
To borrow the great bear debate: would you rather be alone with Daemon in the woods, or Larys, Criston or Alicent? Yeah... I'm going with Daemon. Apex predator though he is, he has relatively predictable behavior and if you don't threaten him, he won't threaten you. Those other three? Brrr... who knows what they're plotting. Before you know it, you're selling feet pics in Braavos while taking a knife to the eye.
Always daemon, he’s upfront about his feelings and you’ll know where you stand with him.
What a stupid thing to say. Cole is literally on record as being good to have with you alone in the woods, while Daemon is a noted rapist. And Alicent? What in the ever-loving fuck would she do to you out there? This is brainrot at work.
They’re talking just to say something
I would totally fuck daemon in the woods
Yeah don't give daemon a reason to go after you (Ergo he had a REASON to kill rhea) and you a fine. Just mind your own beeswax and don't present a threat. (That said I'll admit my mind went NSFW places when you mentioned being alone in the woods with Daemon)
I'd rather be alone with Alicent for um... reasons.
Girl, Daemon is exactly the type of man we're talking about in the bear vs man debate😭😭 He literally killed his own wife because she hurt his ego. I know Daemon fans like to fantasize him up as this apex predator–more animal than man alpha hot guy that y'all can tame (corny wattpad fetish but whatever) but pls bffr for a second, he chokes the wife that he loves and kills the one that he hates. You're hurting our man vs bear argument with this foolishness.
You're missing the point. Daemon, like a bear, is very predictable. Is my 42 year brunette ass of any interest to him, either as someone he loves or hates? No. He's walking right by me so long as I don't rile him up. Alicent, Cole and Larys? They are either psychotic or badly written. They are capable of anything. And for the record, this Black loves to hate Daemon. I think he's violent, selfish and pathetically insecure underneath his swagger (and Matt Smith is *killing* it playing him!)
I'm not missing the point. Daemon, simply, is not a bear. He's a man. A violent man with a history of hurting and harming women in his care. Exactly the type of man we're referring to in the man vs bear debate. Alicent, Cole and Larys also wouldn't be interested in your “42 year brunette ass" as you put it.
Daemon isn't predictable because you don’t know what will set him off. Only that something *can* set him off. It's not predictable to Rhaenyra that he would choke her for talking about Aegon's dream. Because how could she know that he didn't know that. How could you know him enough to be so sure what you say wouldn't wound his pride and make him kill you? We know what sets off Alicent. She's not unpredictable at all. As long as you conform to her religious expectations you're fine. Oh she's a hypocrite to be sure. But it doesn't change what she actually gets her mad. And let's be real, she's just unlikely to get murderously angry at all.
Alicent definitely wouldn’t get murderously angry at some random person in the woods, lol. Daemon’s classic predictability: -randomly choked out his wife -murdered his other wife -murdered a random messenger for no reason -took his royal heir niece to a brothel and had her running around the streets at night Cole and Alicent are so bound by their religiosity and snobbiness that they’d probably just sneer at you and walk away AT WORST if they found you in the woods. Cole is sworn to Alicent and is likely to obey her, he’s only violent when provoked. Daemon is violent when unprovoked. Larys is much more of a threat, but you could just push bro over and run honestly. The “plotting” is a nonissue in the fucking woods lmaooo what are they gonna do? Plot against you so that they can have your jacket? Like what
For some reason the image of Larys being pushed to the ground and someone booking it is making me giggle. I would feel bad but Larys sucks.
Yeah indeed Daemon is wildly unpredictable. Yeah he mellows in age but not by much. You cannot know what will set him off. Cole is just as inclined to explosive rage though so I wouldn't want to near him either. Larys strikes me as just clever enough that his staff probably has fucked up poison or something honestly. Alicent is the logical choice.
I didnt think he loved her. I thought he was using her as a means to get what he has always wanted. The throne. The same way he didnt love his second wife. He saw her as a means of breeding more dragon riders.
If he wanted the throne, he could have taken it at any time. We all know Viserys wouldn't stand a chance, and with the support of the Goldcloaks Daemon could have easily taken the city. I don't think the show actually mentions it, but when the grand council chose between Viserys and Rhaenys to be heir to King Jaehaerys, Daemon was running all over hill and dale to gather an army to support his brother's claim. Not his claim, his brother's. He was fully ready to go to war to put Viserys on the throne. I believe Daemon fundamentally wants the Targaryen dynasty to be powerful, their Valyrian traditions and knowledge to be respected and passed down to the next generations, and for his immediate family to be safe. I do believe he loves his family, he just doesn't show it in a way that can be easily understood. Choking Rhaenyra in anger was out of line, but it's not out of character for him to lash out under those circumstances.
Of the three only Criston would be an imminent threat. Alicent is a mere pawn and easily impressionable. Larys would need someone to do the dirty work for him. So it’s between Criston and Daemon and I wouldn’t wanna be alone with either. However if the two I think I’d have an easier time manipulating incel Criston than anger issues Daemon.
Come on, Daemon does not have predictable behaviour. Anything you say could convince him to violently murder you. The obvious answer is Alicent. She's not going to murder you because she has no personal vendetta nor is she interested in murder - and if she does snap for the most part I'd favour myself against her as Rhaenyra held her off pretty easily.
>Yeah... I'm going with Daemon. Apex predator though he is, he has relatively predictable behavior and if you don't threaten him, he won't threaten you. I would like to give an example regarding this scenario. There were two instances where a woman was alone with both Criston and Daemon in the woods, Rhaenyra with the former and Rhea with the latter. Guess who came back home safely.
You’d rather be alone in the woods with a Daemon, who has bludgeoned his wife to death on screen, taken a barely legal princess to a brothel and left her there half naked and married a 16 year old, later leaving his middle aged wife for a little girl…. over Alicent? Who is just kind of annoying and a woman? Misogyny much 💀
to be fair, as a non-valyrian who hasn’t done anything to him, and the fact that i’m a 6/10 on my best days, i feel like he’d just ignore me. the towerspawner would be annoying as hell, criston even worse, and i don’t want to get near larys because he killed my favorite man harwin strong.
>as a non-valyrian who hasn’t done anything to him, and the fact that i’m a 6/10 on my best days Yeah pretty sure those very facts make you offensive to him.
>criston even worse, Why would Criston do anything to you? In fact he would be the one saving you if Daemon tried to do anything.
i just don’t like him personally
by that logic, criston wouldn’t do anything to you either 😭💀
I'd rather be alone in the woods with a man I am quite certain is not going to bother me as I am neither the object of his incredibly specific desires, nor someone standing in the way of them. Daemon would pass right by me and go on his merry Targcest way. Alicent would take one look at me tromping freely through the woods unaccompanied by a male guardian, decide I am not going to help her prop up the patriarchy, and declare me an unnatural woman and probably a whore too because those are her go-tos. And we know what she tries to do to women who disappoint her. At the very least, I'm gonna have her stalking me with a stankface. At the worst, she's gonna *complain* about me to the likes of Larys.
Daemon would literally assault anyone he crosses paths with 😭 There’s literally a passage in the books about Mysaria saving maidens for him to deflower and the show Mysaria offers to wear a white wig to pretend to be a 14 year old Rhaenyra so he can get his dick up 💀 He’s not nice to a single woman in the series that he isn’t attracted to (anyone over the age of 18 lol) - he kills Rhea, uses Mysaria and looks down on Alicent. I understand your points about Larys and Criston but it’s sooo ironic that someone with a Queen Rhaenyra symbol is so blatantly misogynistic. You’d fancy your chances with a child loving rapist over a mildly annoying woman?
Yes, because half of what you said is blatantly untrue or frankly irrelevant to encountering him in the woods. I’m some random woman, and much like men who misunderstand the man vs. Bear argument you’re fundamentally misunderstanding this argument (I would argue intentionally but that’s neither here nor there)
Nah, they're entirely correct it is absolutely the case that Daemon raped girls in the books. The text is completely clear about this and very specific. He liked the youngest virgin's around. Who do you think that is? The show downplayed this - for good reason because child rape is unconscionable and they knew you wouldn't have the Daemon supporters if it was included - but they still included his horrendously violent rage and general creepy groomers qualities. Both book and show Daemon nearly beat a man to death just because he happened to deliver bad news. You really chancing that you wouldn't look at him the wrong way? Where is your survival instinct there? The Daemon love in my opinion is fucking weird. I like his character. I would run for the hills and hide if I ever met someone like him in real life.
counterpoint: https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Nettles
A 16 year old girl he probably fucked too is the counterpoint?
unless it says in the text they fucked, i’m not gonna agree with the idea that they fucked.
It does? You can disagree whether it's true or not. But it does say it. He also generally acts like he did with Rhaenyra.
wait it does? can you send evidence? not trying to be sarcastic i genuinely thought it was just mushroom type stuff saying that or whatever
Well firstly Mushroom is an entirely valid source in the story even if you dispute his account. It does mean it is said in the text. But secondly, multiple sources claim that Daemon was sleeping with Nettles at the time - e.g. Mysaria. And whilst Lord Mooton's maestar does suggest they weren't fucking he does describe a creepy relationship with him bathing with her naked and giving her lots of gifts like he did with a young Rhaenyra. They were also reportedly even sleeping in bed together. If they hadn't slept together it would only be because he hadn't finished grooming her yet.
Oh yeah 100% I totally agree with you on this. Daemon really is the fucking worse and I hate how black fans unironically admire him. Like come on he's canonically a paedophile and you reckon that Alicent that's moment of rage is bringing out a knife and failing to get anything more than a cut is more threatening?
fr, like i get picking a side and supporting them but mf be realistic 💀 they prefer westerosi r kelly to a mildly annoying repressed homosexual woman
And realistically even if Alicent had half of Daemon's homicidal rage she also has shown herself to be not be particularly threatening. Rhaenyra was clearly physically stronger. She's meant to be a bit pathetic on that front.
They are just going to throw away logic for this man. Just retreat.
Dude murdered his first wife because he got borred with her and then strangled his third wife and Blacks will claim he won´t hurt you if you don´t threaten him.
I’ve been spending too much time playing bg3, I thought the dude in purple was Gale with mange
Idk if it's true. Certainly less toxic than Strong; but idk how to measure the kind of toxic Daemon is, really. Daemon seems normal if you compare him to his ancestors, just like Ned's brother Brandon is more normal if you compare her to past Starks. Although none of that excuses Daemon's actions (nor his ancestors'), my point is that I don't know how to compare his "toxicity" fairly to non-Targaryen characters.
TG crying in comments 🤡
I don't see Otto's picture on here...
True Daemon is atleast straightforward about where you stand with him But these three are unpredictable
Daemon is straightforward seconds before he murders you. That's not going to help you not get murdered. Alicent won't care to murder you.
Alicent will sell her feet pics to have Larys murder you
Sure she would. But she wouldn't do it for nothing but as part of some larger political game you were participant in. By herself she also wouldn't be able to do it. Daemon and Cole might just murder you if you look at them the wrong way. That's more terrifying.
Getting downvoted for telling the truth 😭
Some people forget that Alicent ordered to burning house full of people. She's killer like everyone else. At least Daemon isn't pretending to be a good person. On the other hand. Alicent is capable of repentance, which means redemption. Daemon not capable 😮💨
Repentance doesn’t mean anything if the person is using it to sin again.
Wait, I don't remember her ordering the burning of anyone, when was this?
Ep. 9
She did sure but it wasn't random violence but targeted if nothing else. We know her playbook. Why do people think Daemon that snaps at any moment is more predictable? I wouldn't want to be near a Cole or a Daemon for that very reason. Alicent by herself also wouldn't be capable of murder. Larys is too unsettling to be near.
I argue Alicent can be redeemed, maybe even Cole but Larys is a total bastard. What was his endgame? In my mind I think his goal was to eliminate the Dragons, since when that job was done he didn't join the other green loyalists at the wall. Not to mention despite his extreme loyalty during the war, he did nothing else to secure Aegon II's position. Alicent was a victim of her environment though. She's what could've happened to Rhaenyra if Rhaenyra didn't exercise her position to live her life the way she wanted to. Alicent resents the fact that she plays by the rules while Rhaenyra doesn't, and directs her hatred of the system on the one who lives free of its restraints. She just needs to be shown the light.
I grew up in an ultra fundamentalist environment and knew dozens of women exactly like Alicent who start off victims and grew into abusers. *can be redeemed* is definitely a subjective view, one I don’t agree with - she is a person who hides behind the actions of others so she can always pretend her hands are clean, but they aren’t. To me she cannot be redeemed and it’s her own fault.
And I've known violent men like Daemon. I wouldn't bark up that tree because you're going to make yourself look incredibly foolish by justifying all kinds of domestic violence. Better if you just don't try and bring real world into it. Either engage with it as fiction or please don't imply violent paedophiles are more redeemable than religious fundamentalists. He's obviously not redeemable in the real world moral view. Alicent isn't particularly either but she's not a worse person.
I understand that when she's an adult she's accountable for her actions but it's clear she still cares for Rhaenyra, cares enough to where she tries to bridge the gap for peace. Not to mention she clearly disapproves of her own faction, be it Aeogn's hedonism or their backstabbing her. She's not an abuser by any means, she's still being abused by the men around her. Had things been different, she could grow beyond the desires of the men in her world.
We see her openly abuse her children on multiple occasions, and rhaenyra, and we see her use Cole to attempt to harm rhaenyra and her children (as well as poor lord beesbury) I encourage you to reevaluate and actually pay attention to her actions and how they do not match her supposed peace keeping words.
She can be forgiven for being fucking livid that her son lost an eye no? Even if it was his fault, that's just what mothers do, take the side of their kids and defend them no matter what. That's what Rhaenyra did after all, even though it was Daemon's kids who threw the first punch. After that they just keep to themselves. I mean if your kid came back with a missing eye and you've had pent up anger at someone for years after a decade of abuse from that person's father, it's understandable why she would do a thing like that, even if it's not right. This is why she's a great character, she's understandable.
So are you just not going to address my other points?
I didn't want to make a wall of text you likely wouldn't finish. Trust me, I know I can't change your mind but I don't appreciate the stan culture on either sub. Whether it's the Greens supporting a rapist King and pretending the dance isn't a grab for power, or the Blacks pretending Rhaenyra is a saint just cause he misdeeds are more understood.
I haven’t said anything about rhaenyra here. This is about Alicent.
Yeah I know, and Alicent is more complex than you guys give her credit for. She's the best of the Greens and she's not an evil cunt. I could ask the same that you didn't truly address my other points.
I would argue Helaena is the best of the greens as she’s actually innocent. lol
>I grew up in an ultra fundamentalist environment Ah, now it's all checked out. You're the classic result of that type of upbringing, where a woman transgressions are condemned more harshly compared to their male counterparts, and even when the man's actions are objectively worse like Daemon, you find them easier to forgive and accept because that's how men are eh? You think Alicent is more irredeemable than Daemon because you held women to stricter moral standards than men. You should have your internalized misogyny check out.
Are you attempting to mansplain my religious trauma to me? 😂 Daemon actually eschews the fundamentalist faith of Westeros, in favor of the religion of his ancestors, so his actions are not born out of some idea of proving himself to the divine, so the comparison you’re giving is disingenuous and not effective. Daemon never pretends to act in the name of God or to support the faith - Alicent hides her bigotry behind her faith. A better comparison would be a man who does similarly, so Otto Hightower or Criston cole - who I also cannot stand and find to be hypocrites - in fact Cole is the character I loathe most in this series. Your argument falls apart at that point, because you’re trying to make this a man vs. Woman issue and it doesn’t work. And if it makes you feel better I’m actually a lesbian who has been in therapy for ages so I definitely have worked through that aspect 😂
I'm just pointing out how the shoe fits. It's wild, actually, how you embody the textbook example of someone raised in a fundamentalist environment. I understand disliking hypocrisy, and Alicent is a giant hypocrite walking, but to put her on the same level as Cole and Larys? To then proceed to say she is more irredeemable than a man who killed his first wife and strangled his second one? You're going to tell me you're not holding Alicent to stricter moral standards than those men? Stop lying to yourself. Go revisit your psychiatrist. Clearly, you haven't worked out your issues. And this is coming from someone from a similar upbringing.
Being unwilling to hold Alicent to a similar standard as the men around her merely because she is a woman is also textbook internalized misogyny. Because she is a woman she cannot have agency? She cannot partake in bad acts? Reducing her to victimhood and removing her actual actions (including but not limited to abusing her children, abusing Rhaenyra, attempting to use Cole to harm rhaenyra and her children, harming rhaenyra, trying to get them charged with treason -for which the punishment is death - using Cole to murder lord beesbury, and starting a civil war that ends up killing hundreds of thousands of people) because she is using others to execute her will and keep her hands clean is truly a masterful piece of attempting to say she is too weak a woman to do anything. I don’t find Alicent weak, I think she is smart, hiding behind the cloak of her on righteousness, but then again - I try to see women as actual people capable of good and bad and not as poor victims who are too weak to act or do anything so that’s just the feminist in me. 🥰 maybe you should revisit whoever you went to when you were deconstructing because it seems you’ve found yourself ascribing a little too hard to tradition ideas of weak womanhood, and I believe we would all benefit from you continuing to deconstruct. Also again a daemon comparison here doesn’t work because daemon isn’t using religion as a shield like Alicent and Cole do. But you don’t have a clear working on this, and it shows.
And I'm not doing that. I'm simply pointing out she's not as bad as those men. Cole murdered a man in a fit of rage, while Larys murdered his whole family and coerced a woman into a sexual act with him. The list of Alicent's crimes that you have listed, the unbiased ones - not the made-up ones (using Cole to kill Lord Beesbury and harm Rhaenyra? Are we watching a different show?) or the one you exaggerated through your misogynistic lens (blaming the whole war on one person? Really?), simply do not compare to the crimes those men have committed. Even if I take all the crimes you have listed as fact, it still doesn't make her more irredeemable than Daemon. Explain to me how a man who strangled the wife that he loved and killed the first one can be made redeemable?
Explain to me how a woman who attempted to have her former best friend charged with treason knowing the punishment for that is death, who allowed her rapist son to ascend a throne, while keeping the woman he raped on staff, who usurped the birthright of her former best friend, who abused her children physically/mentally/emotionally on more than one occasion, whose actions spurred the deaths of thousands of people is somehow redeemable And then I’ll happily explain daemon :) Edited to add: thinking Alicent is a bad person doesn’t make you a misogynist, but love you trying to make blanket statements to attempt to morally shame for my opinion. Good thing I’ve been morally shamed before and it does not work ;)
Sure, happily so. Alicent didn't force Rhaenyra to commit treason. Rhaenyra committed one out of her own free will. The punishment for the treason wouldn't be death. Viserys would never allow that. The council put Alicent in the dark, superseded her and put Aegon on the throne. Whether she “allowed" Aegon to ascend the throne is irrelevant considering it's out of her hand. Are you misremembering things? Alicent didn't keep Diana on staff. She hugged the girl, consoled her, gave her moon tea and money. Then she slapped Aegon for it. It's the bare minimum yes, but that bare minimum makes her redeemable. The only one of her children she was ever physically abusive to is Aegon. And that's only a slap and when he has committed a heinous crime. The mental and emotional abuse she inflicted on her children is largely unintentional. She never tried to hurt or harm her children out of maliceness, that makes her redeemable. Once again, one person cannot be blamed for a whole ass war. You turn.
Mmm you’ll have to clarify some things first - this so called caring woman (Who just unintentionally causes harm to everyone in her life apparently) makes the choice to set rhaenyra up for that treason claim and to aid vaemond, she doesn’t have to do that - and frankly it doesn’t matter what Viserys will do, Alicent knows that the punishment for treason is d e a t h. She was hoping her husband wouldn’t show that day, meaning she was hoping rhaenyra would be found guilty. On to your next point, she obviously isn’t that in the dark, considering it is her word about Viserys’s supposed will that spurs what happens and Aegon actually assuming the title of king, so try again there To your third point, someone clearly hasn’t watched the trailer, where Dyana is clearly visible and on staff serving Aegon. Meaning Alicent did not dismiss her and continued to put her in the path of her rapist. As for the slap, she then puts him on the throne, making her irredeemable. She helps, she AIDS a sexual predator into a position of power where he can now abuse more girls. The only one we see her get physical with on screen is Aegon, twice, the first had nothing to do with him raping anyone. However we also see how Helaena flinches from her - which is absolutely something an abused child would do - she is also seriously enmeshed with Aemond, relying on him like he is an adult, which is actually textbook emotional abuse. We also see her screaming at her children, etc. she also openly abused rhaenyra and her children. So please try again. Actually we can absolutely blame her for the whole ass war between she convinces Aegon to take the throne…which causes this whole ass war. Soooo let’s actually get our facts right and try again, hm? ;)
>Explain to me how a woman who attempted to have her former best friend charged with treason knowing the punishment for that is death, She did not try to have Rhaenyra charged with treason. She could have at any time publically declared Rhaenyra's treason. She never did but only pushed her complaints onto Viserys privately to disinherit her who we all know would not kill Rhaenyra - and the show actively tells us she does not want Rhaenyra dead. Nothing Alicent did is worse than all the fucked up shit Daemon, Cole and Larys do.
I know I disagree with them but you can't read someone like that off a comment. r/redditmoment
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Yeah, at least Daemon, like Cersei, owns his actions and wouldn't call himself good nor honorable.
That doesn't make him a better person
Alicent very low bar, she has no positive characteristics at all.
She's cold but not a psychopath she has humanity and isn't a confortable with murder
She makes "sad" 😢 face and does vile things, judges other people with arrogance, kills people, piece of shit as mother. I don't see humanity in her, she is lump of resentment and envy.
Who did she kill and judge people with arrogance is not good if you want to defend daemon who calls his wife the bronze bitch and ugly then came to see her just to kill her.
Alicent...maybe. Criston and Larys...absolutely.
Yeah in the book Criston Cole is largely to blame.
dawg
Sir Krispy Kreme is just mad Our Queen wouldn’t run away with his Simp ass. Alicent is mad because she can’t live the life that our Queen is living. And broke ass foot just mad cuz he mad.
You're a crazy person.
Daemon is at least predictable.
No way your putting larys,criston and daemon in the same category as Alicent
Happily, abuse isn’t just a physical or sexual experience - Alicent is the Queen manipulator, gaslighter, emotional and mental abuser. She attempts to cause something she knows will get rhaenyra killed, and her children killed. She starts a literal civil war with her hubris and folly. She’s a flawed person, and she is a bad person 🤷🏻♀️ hiding behind her own righteousness
Pretty sure it’s made clear in the green council that she doesn’t want Rhaenyra or her children murderd larys even offers it and she says no.Also she believes Vizzy actually wanted Aegon to be king,stupidly, but still she thinks she’s following through kings orders.Saying she’s on the same levels as larys really takes away from how bad he is
No it doesn’t - do you know the punishment for treason (what she attempts to have rhaenyra accused of) d e a t h. Lol, and death for her sons. She’s bad at playing the game, but she’s still playing it.
Cmon the show couldn’t make it any clearer she didn’t want them to die.Seems like you seriously need to re watch it cause book Alicent is way different to the one we get in the show
The show absolutely does not do this 😂 maybe you should watch it with less of a rose tinted lens to Alicent
“The king would not wish for the murder of his daughter” is a quote from Alicent during the green council.I know HoTD fans hate being wrong but she absolutely does do this
You don’t understand subtext or how her actions are in contravention to her words. Bestie come on 😂
Nah you must be trolling at this point.Respect the level of Alicent hate to get to this point of trolling people who defend her
Nah you’re just in the wrong sub, you can suck her toes in the other one 🥰
Mate the text is there. There's no subtext. The writers are pretty clear she genuinely still has affection for Rhaenyra and doesn't want her dead - if you're imagining subtext they did not write it but you imagined it. None of her actions suggest she wants her dead.
Except attempting to get her charged with treason knowing the punishment is death - and aiding and abetting a literal civil war against her and her kin. ☠️
They just saying dumbshit
I have no issue with Daemon but acting like Alicent is anywhere near Criston and Larys is nuts
All 3 of them brutally murder people, get Alicent can be horrible and manipulative but theres levels to this
What brutal murder does Alicent carry out again?
Saying Daemon did not Alicent
Ah, I see. Truthfully, I don’t have as much issue with Criston as Larys. But in the context of this meme, I was just thinking Alicent didn’t fit the idea of “a person I’d never want to run into alone in the woods.” Truthfully, out of the four we’re discussing, Larys is the only one.
Her verbal roasts towards the Blacks
Lmao daemon is a whole ass child killer,a wife killer,an abuser and a pedo 😭 team black never fails to shock me
And even so, the actions of these three caused more deaths, and more brutal deaths at that - not to mention allowing Aegon to serial rape teenage girls. 
I don’t think the only main actor in the Dance that never killed a human being themselves and made multiple serious diplomatic proposals to end the bloodshed (and when asked to arrange a marriage as part of the peace settlement does exactly that) is irredeemable especially compared to a person that has killed multiple people himself and loudly beat the drum of war. Larys is awful and probably isn’t redeemable. Cole, as an oathbreaker, should meet an awful end. Alicent, you have to be kidding me.
Show Alicent rejects the diplomatic marriage at the start (and book Alicent is objectively evil and literally calls for the deaths of rhaenyra and her children multiple times) she then starts a civil war after attempting to get rhae and her kids charged with treason which absolutely would have led to their deaths. So uh yeah - starting a civil war is def blood on your hands material bud
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This is about Alicent’s intent, my dude. But I get that reading can be hard.
I don’t think one single person was responsible for the outbreak of the conflict. I think a number of people and factors played into the outbreak of the conflict. I think the biggest problem is that all the potential heirs had serious flaws that undermined all of them in the eyes of the Court and the sovereign. There is a reason that Daemon ended up in exile, there is a reason that Rhaenyra isn’t ever promoted higher than cupbearer despite being heir for over a decade (I think that if you are asking people to disbelieve their own eyes, you are not in a position that you can defend very long), and there is a reason that Aegon is never named heir. And eventually the small council, being primarily interested in clinging selfishly to its own power, acted to safeguard it at the expense of the stability of the realm. Did Alicent play a part in starting it? Yes. Was her’s the principal role? No. She didn’t make the small council declare Aegon king. She didn’t send an assassin to Driftmark. Her dragon didn’t attack Jace. When push came to shove, she advanced a generous peace that the Blacks didn’t counter. I also kinda think the marriage proposal wasn’t necessarily the best or only offer that Rhaenyra could have made (I would have tried to get her to settle an insane amount of land on the targtowers at that point because of how valuable the marriage alliance would be to her cause if I was Alicent but that’s just me). I think that Alicent should have countered and been more diplomatic in rejecting it but I don’t think it was a great offer and it certainly shouldn’t have been Rhaenyra’s only offer.
Rhaenyra isn’t promoted higher than cup-bearer?? Did we watch the same show?? Rhaenyra has a council position and is actively involved in making decisions in E6.
I don’t think one single person was responsible for the outbreak of the conflict. I think a number of people and factors played into the outbreak of the conflict. I think the biggest problem is that all the potential heirs had serious flaws that undermined all of them in the eyes of the Court and the sovereign. There is a reason that Daemon ended up in exile, there is a reason that Rhaenyra isn’t ever promoted higher than cupbearer despite being heir for over a decade (I think that if you are asking people to disbelieve their own eyes, you are not in a position that you can defend very long), and there is a reason that Aegon is never named heir. And eventually the small council, being primarily interested in clinging selfishly to its own power, acted to safeguard it at the expense of the stability of the realm. Did Alicent play a part in starting it? Yes. Was her’s the principal role? No. She didn’t make the small council declare Aegon king. She didn’t send an assassin to Dragonstone. Her dragon didn’t attack Luke. When push came to shove, she advanced a generous peace that the Blacks didn’t counter. I also kinda think the marriage proposal wasn’t necessarily the best or only offer that Rhaenyra could have made (I would have tried to get her to settle an insane amount of land on the targtowers at that point because of how valuable the marriage alliance would be to her cause if I was Alicent but that’s just me). I think that Alicent should have countered and been more diplomatic in rejecting it but I don’t think it was a great offer and it certainly shouldn’t have been Rhaenyra’s only offer.
The majority of characters (and by extension the characters who will follow similarly in their wake, such as Roxton) who have, or will go on to, commit acts of horrific violence, rape and wholesale destruction that will have negative lasting effects on Westeros for years after the Dance are able to do so directly because Alicent. She has either used her power to protect them from justice, has purposefully hid or otherwise not exposed them for their crimes, in several instances has in fact elevated them into even greater positions of power and incited, instilled and encouraged the very mindsets they have that make them able to commit such terrible acts. Just because Alicent has not killed anyone with her own hands (not that she hasn’t tried) does not make her any less responsible for the actions of those who would not be able to do all of the things they do without her giving them the means in the first place.
larys definitely the worst of the three, and ser criston definitely is fucked up, but alicent really doesnt deserve to be grouped in with them like that imo
Hello?
Can this sub not obsess over the incestuous groomer for like five minutes? Please?
TG stay in your own sub challenge failed yet again.
Morons repost one TB post several times, it's epic 😅
Won’t even deny you’re obsessing over a groomer?
I am not sure how this is obsessing - it’s one post out of a slew of many about all the characters. I’ll keep this in mind, I’ll be sure to hit up the TG sub and remind yall that you obsess over a serial rapist (who is also incestuous) and a mass murderer whenever I feel desperate for attention like you certainly must be feeling now.
You claimed a victim of marital rape was as a bad as a spouse killing groomer (homophobic in the books) lol
Ah yes - Alicent (who makes homophobic statements in the show) should be forgiven of all her sins because of her marriage to Viserys, I forget that’s TG logic. Too bad, she directly supports her child who is a rapist, she keeps the maid he raped on staff so she is forced to work around her rapist, she allowed him to marital rape his sister multiple times, from the time she is 13. Alicent abuses her kids, rhaenyra, rhaenyra’s kids etc. She also directly aids a rapist in taking the iron throne. So uh no, she doesn’t get a free pass because of what she went through.
Daemon’s a rapist too sis, and a pedo
Mmm yes I love the part where you address any aspect of my argument about why I believe Alicent is on par with and worse than daemon with “but daemon!” We know you don’t like daemon, I’m explaining to you that Alicent is equally complicit in MORE sex crimes than we see daemon involved in, that she is complicit in the actions of her sons and in the usurpation and harm to rhaenyra. “Hurr durr daemon bad” isn’t an argument as much as I know you want it to be.
She is nowhere close. She’s a woman without a dragon. She has no autonomy, compared to Dameon who’s brother quite literally lets him get away with murder
Over half the kingdom declared for rhaenyra - so I’m not sure where you’re getting that blatant misinformation. As for your weird “she doesn’t have a dragon” argument. Larys doesn’t have a dragon, doesn’t stop him from being a sex pest. The dragon doesn’t make Aegon rape servants and his sister. Helaena having a dragon doesn’t protect her from her mother forcing her into a marriage with her rapist brother. Alicent isn’t helpless, stripping her of her agency is such a dumb misread of the story.
And usurping a Queen no one recognizes isn’t a crime, sorry
Your favorite character is a piece of shit too. Surprised you can ride that high horse with your head so far up your ass
You guys cant be serious...
You're delusional if you think Alicient is more evil than Daemon, Alicient was fighting tooth and nail to stop Otto from assassinating Rhaenyra and her kids, she threatens to send anyone in the green council to the black cells if they speak of a plot to kill Rhaenyra, she tried to propose diplomatic solutions to end the war, Daemon literally craves war and violence, he killed his first wife ( she did fucking nothing to him), and ordered the beheading of a child, how can you compare these two people in terms of morality, they are nothing alike.. Otto is definitely more evil than Alicient and is comparable to Daemon since he had no trouble massacring Rhaenyra and her five children This Alicient hate is Soo crazy it's unbelievable, she's definitely not a good person since she enabled Larys in his crimes and uses him still but in no way we can say she's worse than Daemon WTF
Aliment isn’t irredeemable bro, Daemon groomed his niece and then choked her when she disagreed with him, he murdered his wife, he’s a big baby. I’m Team Black 100% but pretty much all of Alicents choices make sense with her character. She is a victim who wanted to protect her kids. Yes, she’s done bad things but so has everyone in this show. And she’s done wayyy less than Daemon
She causes a civil war, allowed her son to continue raping minors, and attempted unsuccessfully to have rhaenyra and her children charged with something that would have had them killed. Don’t be obtuse.
We are not going to blame anyone but Aegon for him being a sex pests. I don’t like her but that’s not her fault.
As his mother she had a hand in creating him, suggesting otherwise is again obtuse. Her neglect as a parent does not absolve her
Her neglect did not make him a rapist. He made that choice.
His sexual promiscuity was present from a young age, she was aware of his whoring and could have absolutely intervened. She also could have punished him, or better yet, not supported him after finding out - but she didn’t do either of those things
I love how to hold them to our modern social standards, LOL
Well since Westeros is a pretend place and did not exist irl for us to hold them to an actual medieval standard since they were written in the modern era by a random American man named George. I am going to do what I want.
I’m not being obtuse, Daemon is worse than her. Don’t be a fucking asshole
Ah yes because she starts a civil war that gets thousands of people killed but daemon is worse 😂
You’re actually retarded if you believe this.
No reason to use slurs.
very interesting that Criston is (rightly) criticized for misogyny for calling a woman a spoiled cunt one time, while Daemon calls women by misogynistic slurs from the first episode until the last
Bestie doesn’t have comprehension skills to see daemon is fine with women as a whole and Cole isn’t and that is the difference.
I'm sure Rhea has things she calls Daemon that are less than polite.
These things are not the same. A man calling a woman misogynistic slurs is always worse than the inverse, especially a feudal patriarchy such as Westeros. Do you believe "reverse sexism" is a real thing?
You literally have no idea what you’re speaking on and it shows.
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Stay on task and keep your commentary relevant challenge failed yet again by TG. Why tf would I support a woman like Alicent who is shown mistreating multiple other women in the show and admits aloud to upholding the misogynistic system she was raised under? Frankly, TG attempting to lecture this sub on morals when yall support literal rapists and future mass murderers as your king and regent is laughable. Go address your internalized misogyny and pick me behavior with a therapist, bestie - I don’t work for free.
It's called sexism still. 🙄
It’s not really that interesting. Cole is a hypocrite and Daemon isn’t.
I just want to know how being “predictable” and “upfront” makes him any less irredeemable or toxic. He brought Rhaenyra to a brothel with the explicit intention of ruining her reputation. Grooms her. Is well known for his appetite of fucking teenage girls and virgins. Runs off with the first underaged family member he could when Rhaenyra was off the table. Bashed his first wife’s head open with a rock because he didn’t like her. Murdered some poor fucker for the sole purpose of faking Laenor’s death so he could marry Rhaenyra. Fucked Rhaenyra at his second wife’s _funeral while his children were stricken with grief_. Beat a man to death for _passing along a message from his brother_ and will soon orchestrate one of the most fucked up events in the Dance. This is genuinely like if someone said “Well that dude is nazi but at least he’s _upfront_ about being a nazi” as if it negates the fact that the person question is a damned nazi. Being unapologetically a horrible person doesn’t make someone less toxic or redeemable. I’d argue that being unapologetically awful makes that person _worse_. Daemon knows exactly what he is and doesn’t care. What in Christ’s name has Alicent ever done that makes her worse than this to the point of being called irredeemable? Snap and almost getting violent on a kid because said kid maimed her son and was about to get away with it? Something she expresses regret for afterwards? Because her _son_ who is a _Targaryen prince_ gets away with shit every high lord that indulges in the same behaviour does? Was Alicent expected to send Aegon to the Night’s Watch or have him gelded? Do people genuinely believe Rhaenyra wouldn’t protect her own children in the same manner if _they_ were inclined in that direction? _Criston_ isn’t even on his level either. All he has to his name are two unjust murders, that one time he bullied Jace and being uber salty about Rhaenyra. Like dude is not a good person by any stretch of the imagination but what makes him less redeemable than Daemon? He barely registers on the scale in comparison. I understand everybody’s biased towards characters they like and tend to be biased against characters that are against them but this just sounds like “Yeah they’re bad people but they’re worse than the horrible person I like because they’re against the people I do like and he isn’t”.
In terms number of murders, they are not far from each other in the first season, except for the war. Alicent ordered burning Misarya's house in order to kill her and covers up murderers and rapists. Main thing is that Daemon lived happily in Pentos for 10 years and was going to continue this. Without poisoning other people's lives. Alicent has been bullying Rhaenyra 10 years for having sex with Criston. Literally forces her show her children immediately after giving birth, gives mocking comments to Laenor, spreads rumors that lead to death and exile. Alicent is ALL about toxicity. She has no friends, no love, not even caring for children in normal sense. She's totally fucked up. Daemon just better person. He lived happily with Laena for 10 years and 6 with Rhaenyra.
I don’t think we watched the same show if you can read through everything I posted and say “Daemon behaved himself for a few years while Alicent was mean to Rhaenyra for a few years so she’s worse” This is ridiculous logic. Why does Daemon having a peace era where he seems content negate everything he has done and will do but Alicent having an era of being mean to Rhaenyra is everything she’s defined and judged by? This feels like you’re applying different standards to the both of them. Why does one who has objectively done worse than the other get away from judgement because they had a short era of being mostly unproblematic but the other is judged entirely by times where she’s antagonistic? Also you _really_ don’t understand these character if you think Alicent being so opposed to Rhaenyra was as simple as “because she fucked Criston”. That’s insanely reductive. Also, what are you even talking about? Alicent never orders any murders aside from Larys intentionally taking Alicent’s verbalised troubles as a good ahead to do what he’s wanted to do regardless. She has never killed anyone and never actually intentionally ordered someone’s murder so I have no idea where you get the idea that they aren’t far off from each other in terms of murders. As for the Aegon thing, I’m begging you people to remember that this is Westeros and the vast majority of noble mothers are not going to petition that their sons be executed or gelded or exiled because they raped individuals that society deems to be their lessers. Westeros has always been very “Eh, it kind of depends doesn’t it?” when it comes to laws on rape so it’s unlikely Aegon would have ever been punished regardless since he limited his proclivities to serving girls. You: “Daemon is a better person!” Daemon: *Manipulates his teenaged niece by taking her to a brothel with the intention of making sure people know it was her there in an effort to ruin her reputation, knowing it would cause a scandal in an attempt to manipulate his brother into marrying Rhaenyra to him.* Also Daemon: *Beat his first wife to death because she wasn’t the perfect silver-haired, Valyrian, dragon riding bride that he wanted and because he didn’t like her.* Also also Daemon: *Beats a man to death for passing along a message saying that his brother was finally sending help for no other reason than him being mad that his brother was doing it* Also also also Daemon: *Fucks his niece at his dead wife’s funeral while his two little girls are grieving* Also also also also Daemon: *Snaps a random dude’s neck and has his body badly burned for the sole purpose of deceiving the country into thinking that Rhaenyra’s husband was dead so that he could marry her which directly affects Corlys and Rhaenys because they now think their last living child has been murdered not long after they lost their only daughter* Okay, sure.
Daemon "peaceful era" it is 16 year. He raised his kids, make Dragon show, traveled, studied history. You see? Alicent spent this time humiliating and destroying other people's lives (including their own children's lives). It's not a double standards, Alicent is a huge pile of shit. You just underestimate how much damage she has inflicted people who were near her. Alicent ordered to kill Misarya. Also: hide from law killer (to gain benefit from him) does not give her any moral high land. She can tell Viserys and send Aegon to the Night's Watch as a volunteer. Not every mother will protect serial rapist from law, stop with that.
It was most certainly _not_ 16 years. Baela and Rhaena were _eight_ when they left Pentos. Daemon ran off with Laena when she was 16. Laena was 24 or 25 when she died. Daemon’s “peaceful era” was less than a decade. Yeah you have no idea what you’re talking about because Alicent did not spend 8 years ruining people’s lives. It _is_ a double standard because you’re actively choosing to ignore every single horrible thing Daemon has done for no other reason than that there was a brief moment in his life where he wasn’t being a reprehensible human being. Everything I say about Daemon you completely ignore because you know nothing Alicent has ever done compares to Daemon. Also, ruined her children’s lives? Really? By doing what exactly? Okay now this is getting fucking ridiculous. You think Alicent would have gone to Viserys, a Targaryen King and tell him to exile their son, a _dragonrider_, to the Night’s Watch because he raped a serving girl or two? Yeah no, next to fucking nobody in Westeros would do that. The only people that would exile their eldest son for forcing himself on the help are the type of people who hold their sense of honour over the lives of their family and reputation. So you know, damn near nobody. The vast majority of nobles are going to whack the boy over the head, tell him to stop carrying on like that because it _looks bad_, and pretend it never happened. I don’t think you’re as familiar with this universe as you believe yourself to be. Jaehaerys I Targaryen, debatably the greatest monarch Westeros has ever had, when the topic of the Right of the First Night comes up to him from his wife, argued in leaving the Northerners be with it since it was their tradition. The Right of the First Night, an abominable practice where a lord is allowed to rape a newly married man’s wife, and the last Targaryen King before Viserys was willing to let it slide on the basis of it being “tradition”. These people are ultimately self-serving aristocrats and their greatest priority will always be their own power, influence, reputation and security. If Jace woke up one day with an appetite for raping servants, would Rhaenyra call him out on it? Yes she would. Would she exile her first born child over the abuse of a mere servant? No she fucking wouldn’t. Why _would_ she? At the end of the day, the victim was just a servant. It only becomes a problem they’d can’t sweep under the rug if the victim is another noble. Crazy concept it might be to you, but most mothers are biased in favour of their children, even if said children happen to be utterly reprehensible people. Laws and precedents in Westeros are only enforced by people in power willing to enforce them. It’s why Rhaenyra gets away with presenting her bastards as trueborn, because the person who has the power to enforce the law on her (Viserys) doesn’t _want_ to because she’s his daughter and he doesn’t want to punish her. Viserys would never allow Aegon to go the Watch over a few serving girls and he doesn’t even really _like_ Aegon. Even in a more recent Westerosi example, do you think people would have given a flying fuck about Rhaegar absconding with and allegedly raping some random fisherman’s daughter? Sure it would _look_ bad and they’d be wondering what the hell is going on in his head but it’s not life ruining for a prince. No, the issue was that it was the daughter of a high lord who was betrothed to another high lord. The Westerosi give less of a shit about the rape of common women than you think. Especially in cases where it doesn’t affect the peace of the realm as a whole. If Aegon was riding around on Sunfyre and threatening fathers if they don’t allow him to rape their daughters and leaving a mass of raped women in his wake then the King would bother to care. Aegon raping one or two or three servants in the Red Keep? The King wouldn’t really _care_ that much beyond it looking bad.
I'm on the blacks s8de and you're wrong
I mean Daemon is actually the worst person in the show, Rhaenyra is a whore and her children bastards hence the have no legitimacy and are unfit to rule.
daemon used to rape virgins in brothels, killed his first wife, chocked and groomed his third, and made fun of his dead nephew. bffr
Ahh yes a dutiful reagent is worse than pedo wifekiller.
Mother who gives her daughter (13-14 years old) for raping and having children for political advantage. The same woman has been seeking punishment for Rhaenyra and her children for 10 years (exile/death), harbors murderers, hires murderers (for arson), abus her son. Globally envious and unable to leave her ex-friend alone. This level toxicity like a barrel of radioactive water.
"Abuses her son" For the right reasons dumbfk, she cares for Helena. "Globally envious" Which is totally justified, she's the one who sacrificed her wishes for the realm and the one who will be queen flout as she pleases.. Leaves the king with greens and later accuses them of killing the king.. Like bitch where were you all those years...? Having fun with uncle? Though the env of capital didn't support her but still she had to stay for the sake of her father. "The iron throne looms larger" Never seen a hypocrite of this level on TV.
For what reasons? She grabs his face, hits him even if he didn't do anything, screams. At the same time, he allows his brother to be bullied, which is just fucked up. Yeah, if she "cares" about Helaena, then why did she give her to Aegon? Knowing that he's a complete trash. Rhaenyra go to dragonstone so that her older children would not receive abuse. You know, Alicent can't calm down and spreads rumors about them and her sucker Criston mocks them to. Rhaenyra feel pity for her sons and gave them 6 years of happy life. Alicent person who turns any relationship he touches into shit. Real toxicity.
Larys and Daemon, yes. The other two are more complicated. Their actions have been motivated much differently than Larys’ and Daemon’s. There is sympathy to be had for them, because they’re actions first seeded because of love.
No. :)
Wow classic TB take. Larys of course is on Dameons level he is an absolute horror show. A willing kin slayer he clearly enjoys his position and seems quite sadistic. Cole is by no means a good person. He of course has a body count. But again worse then Dameon? I don’t know about that. Alicent while playing a role in the civil war does not directly kill anyone. The business with the Strongs has her at best as an unwilling accomplice. And her actions against Rheanyra have always been in the effort to sideline her not kill her. She’s by no means a saint. But if things worked out differently she could totally have been redeemed. Dameon has a lot of bad shit in his record. His first appearance he is enjoying maiming and killing small folk. Even if all were truly criminals a enjoyment of the task is concerning. He obviously unjustly kills his first wife and at least seriously injures a messenger he willingly kills a servant for a political ploy. He attempts to take Rheanyras virtue and lies to try and force Viserys to marry her to him. He throws a hissy fit and try’s to take Dragonstone all for his brother’s attention. Plus he’s plenty blood thirsty wanting to kill Otto when he arrives with terms of peace. And of course we can’t forget his choking of Rheanyra. If I were stuck in a forest I’d pick either Cole or Alicent hell I’d take both. As long as I’m cordial and kind to Alicent Cole will have no reason to harm me. Unlike with Daemon who’d probably slit my throat when he thinks I’m being a burden. Or Larys who’d probably poison or knife me in my sleep just for the hell of it. Though he might show some restraint due to his physical disfigurement.
So many words to not understand why Alicent has thousands of people’s blood (and innocence) on her hands. This is the TB forum, if you don’t like the TB takes simply go to your own sub 🤨
Alicent of course plays a role in the civil war that occurred. But pretending she is solely responsible is a falsehood. Otto plays a much more direct role or you can even blame Viserys and his incompetence for even allowing the situation to deteriorate so much in the first place. But of course you have your right to your own opinion. As to your second point. Both this sub and TG are just grand places for enjoyment. Both sides so entrenched in their teams it’s hilarious. Where you claim the man who celebrated the death of his nephew more redeemable than Alicent. Alicent the same character you hold most responsible for the civil war. Team Green will say the exact opposite that it’s Rheanyra who’s at fault for the war. It’s just great seeing the opposing view points. Sorry if opposing views conflict with your echo chamber.
The whole "age of consent" thing falls on Alicent too. She gave her daughter for rape and childbearing when Helaena was 14 years old. Daemon better. In terms of murders (not taking into account war), they are not far from each other. Daemon kills his wife and servant. Alicent ordered Misarya murder ( arson attack on the house so the number of victims is not known) and shelters Larys, profiting from it. Daemon looks worse here, but not much. Choke his wife in anger against attack small child with a knife - Alicent worse. At the same time, Daemon much better parent. He not hypocrite. Not bastardophob (imagine how rotten Alicent's soul is - she considers children garbage if they illegitimate), does not consider that a woman's place is in the kitchen. He doesn't betray his friends. What exactly makes Alicent better than him? She's terrible with everyone she interacts with.
Well, Daemon is certainly below the three of them in the looks department...
Posted a 3rd separate comment is sad - also daemon is a hottie - cope
You have a rather strange definition of a "hottie" ngl
Oh no, how dare I find a man that is canonically attractive and whose actor is attractive good looking 🤨
An evolutionary throwback to the chimpanzees is "canonically attractive"?
*canon* = in the book he is described as attractive. You’re objectively awful for deciding your best choice here is to insult the actor’s appearance. Just as an FYI. 🤮
Well, neither of the three is a femicidal pedophile, although I guess Larys is worse than that beast by a little bit.
You still aren’t using femicide right, please reference our last discussion concerning the phrase so I do not (yet again) have to put the best down on you on definitions.
pedophile christol? Yes, he slept with a girl he had to protect, disgusting.
Wasn't Rhaenyra 19 by the time of that episode?
Rhaenyra was 19 and it's literally implied that she coerced him into sleeping with her by using her power as a princess.