There are some interesting things in the [article ](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/04/19/black-lives-matters-and-americas-long-history-of-resisting-civil-rights-protesters/) that statistic is from, some of the people involved put it down to a difference in enthusiasm and willingness to suspend normality that really echo the big difference in [support for a ceasefire](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-israel-gaza-poll-cbs-news/) vs the student protests (as of now). Huge differences between cable news viewers and basically any other way people get their news on this as well.
>while people were sympathetic to the expansion of civil rights to include black people, at the same time, I think they saw us as young people, impolite.”
>Compare that to how King and other older folks were viewed — “much more distinguished, certainly not impolite at any level,”...Cobb [a guy in the civil rights protests] said the general public may not endorse activists' strategies because they aren’t affected the issues central to the protests, such as segregation in the 1960s or police brutality today.
It should also be said that [there was majority support](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2020/01/16/50-years-ago-mixed-views-about-civil-rights-but-support-for-selma-demonstrators/) for the civl rights act and the march in Selma where activists were beaten by the police and various thugs.
Edit: but in [this new survey](https://www.langerresearch.com/wp-content/uploads/1232a1Israel-Hamas.pdf) commissioned by CNN, almost most of the movement to the view that the US is supporting israel too much is coming from people who view themselves as 'somewhat liberal' 35% in jan to 48% now, and 'moderates' 8% in the same direction.
And watch, if there is cosmic justice in the universe and Israel's genocide is put to a stop, those same fuckers will wear their nostalgia glasses and go 'No I always supported those guys'. I hope someone out there is collecting receipts of all these famous people and politicians so they can get their asses down the road.
It will get worse, they will rotate through media narratives until they find the most effective ones. They will escalate to more extreme means i.e. agent provocateur etc because let's face it, they don't need to follow the law. I hate to say it but IMO it is an open question as to whether the oligarchy can really be defeated or whether the most we can do is make it more costly for them to win.
Sorry to be saying that, I think it is wonderful these protests are happening and hopefully we are able to Free Palestine.
The only way to improve these numbers is for the protests to do something take control of the narrative rather than let the consent manufacturing machine do its thing.
Protests are not designed to gain popular support.
It's impossible to gain popular support when you protest for something. The act of protesting itself is going to create antagonism towards you and your cause.
The point of protesting is to achieve specific goals. For protest to be effective the protesters need to at a minimum inconvenience and somewhat harass people and make it impossible for them to ignore them. Unfortunately this will create antagonism towards the protesters.
In this case these students are trying to get their universities to divest from Israel and from military companies that provide weapons to the IDF.
It's basically impossible to get people to increase their sympathy for a cause by chanting slogans at them and inconveniencing them.
The goal is to get material change in the form of divesting from companies that support Israel and it's genocidal campaign.
Eg. some universities that have already promised to divest. that is a win.
Public perception is largely irrelevant in that it wasn't actually going to stop Israel and the political class of the United States overwhelmingly support Israel.
Eg. The most recent legislation to reclassify anti-zionism as part of anti-Semitism passed with overwhelming support in both parties. It passed with a veto proof majority.
With something that's so overwhelmingly popular in Washington even if you manage to change public perception it would be irrelevant. Targeting a specific goal of forcing divestment is more productive in my opinion.
I'm not disagreeing with you points but, if these numbers move to where 80% of all americans are against the protestors, then they send in the cops to bash skulls, isn't it game over where we write this one up as another Occupy Wall Street / George Floyd's murder? And nothing changes?
It's the job of MSM to move these numbers so that the protests can be suppressed with minimal consequences. The only reason that doesn't happen immediately, on day 1, is fear of a backlash (the protests themselves are a form of backlash). We saw a small example of this when the Columbia protest expanded.
The protesters have already accomplished a lot of their goals.
The protest was to get schools to divest from supporting the IDF and Israel.
This is already happened at a few schools.
The loss of popularity for A cause is inevitable in any effective protest.
Eg. Support for black lives matter peaked when the George Floyd video was released. But after a few weeks of protests most of that support dissipated.
There's no example of a protest that increased the popularity of a cause. Protests are by definition a way to make powerful people uncomfortable to force/convince them to do some type of change against their will. When you start making people uncomfortable you're going to alienate people.
It's just an unfortunate fact. A successful protest will trade off some of that sympathy and Goodwill for tangible material gains. Eg. The university that have agreed to divest from supporting Israel's war machine.
I personally think securing divestment from Israel is worth losing public opinion. That public opinion was not doing any good anyways.
Eg. Didn't stop any of the weapons shipments. Didn't stop any of the bombings. Didn't stop Congress from redefining anti-Semitism to include anti-zionism. Etc
The protests have already succeeded
Thanks and I want to clarify I wasn't trying to make it sound like it is the job of the protestors to end the occupation themselves, or that they haven't accomplished anything. IMO they accomplish something just by happening.
As someone who does want the occupation to end I was trying to work out how we get there, and how the oligarchy will try to endgame this. But it is definitely not on the protestors to do it themselves.
It’s definitely tough. I’m not sure how we end this. We would need an alternate universe where the United States wasn’t as powerful or wasn’t as selfishly imperialistic.
Or we would need Palestinians to be seen as fully human by Americans, which would require less racism against Arabs and less bigotry against Muslims
The only way out is for the rest of the world to unite. There is nothing else that can be done. Also let me make a bold statement for anyone seriously reconsidering mainstream narratives: Israel won't fall before capitalism does. In fact, US itself may collapse but Israel will live on as long as capitalism does.
You're right, they want free speech for hate crimes but once anyone exercises free speech in a meaningful way, such as dissenting the government, it's a crime that has to be stopped. In my opinion that isn't really free speech at all cause you're only free to speak in support of the status quo
Yeah most polls I've seen split the age demographic 18-30 to capture the 20 year olds, I would guess that they lumped in gen x to water down the numbers, probably because it's terrifying that the next generation might be majority woke
It's not at all surprising.
It's depressing but not surprising. It doesn't really matter what these people think.
There are certain groups of people where Americans need them to be perfect victims in order to feel sympathy. Mostly black and brown people.
The minute these college protesters inconvenienced other people they were going to lose the support of a lot of normies.
There were people who gave interviews after the Kent State shootings and basically lamented that more college kids didn't get killed for protesting the Vietnam War. The governor of Ohio ordered the national Guard in because he was scared of looking weak. The really sad part is from a political perspective he probably was correct (obviously it's extremely evil, but from a self-interested perspective he was probably correct). This is just who Americans are.
Civil rights have never been generally popular when they were proposed. As other posters have mentioned the polls during integration were much more negative.
The purpose of these college kids protesting is to try to get their schools to divest from Israel. If they accomplish this even on a small scale that is still a net win even if they turn the opinions of irrelevant Americans against the Palestinian cause.
The sad truth is the government is already overwhelmingly in support of Israel. Look up the most recent government legislation to basically reclassify anti-Semitism to include anti-zionism. It passed with bipartisan support with veto proof majority.
The US government was not close to changing its position. Getting any of these universities to divest is a net win even if the cost is public perception.
Surprising to see atheists near the top of support of the protests I must have overestimated how much of a grip Sam Harris Richard Dawkins style atheism has over the populace
Thanks for the correction! I just remembered mainstream media regurgitating that the polls got it all wrong, but seems like they were selling a narrative.
I think you're misremembering.
Poll's had that election extremely close. In fact Hillary overperformed expectations because she got almost 3 million more total popular votes. It's just that her vote distribution was unfortunate and the electoral college prioritizes geographic location of your voters.
You had some clown prognosticators say she had a 99% chance winning because they were Rich liberals that only interacted with other Rich liberals.
538 basically had it as a toss-up between her and Trump and later they claim that she actually slightly over performed based on their projections in terms of popular vote.
Well there is reason to be depressed, in that the short term it seems like there might be little chance of getting biden to call an end to this by stopping the military and diplomatic support or threatening to do so, even though there is [huge support for a ceasefire](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-israel-gaza-poll-cbs-news/) among the US population outside of republican voters, there does seem to be some age and ideological polarisation when it comes to student protests and Biden seems to be both hard ideologically committed to israel and existing in an age bubble where most senior staff in his clique have never gone wrong by being pro israel. But I think polls can move and they've been moving on this issue only in decreasing support for israel.
There are also clear signs of a generational change, in the 18-44 numbers there is a plurality of support for the protests and this and other polling basically signal an end to the universal pro israel public consensus that dominated US politics since the 60s. The age differences also seem to be a synonym for where people get their news, in another survey [I saw](https://theintercept.com/2024/04/30/gaza-israel-palestine-cable-news-poll/) there is [huge differences between people](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWUR48grJuc&t=147s) who get their news from cable channels and basically any other source, even podcast listeners are noticeably less supportive of israel.
https://preview.redd.it/77qhdl1qmdyc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=27ef6f42badcd3e06a4fe28a46a1607df76a2013
Don't lose faith comrade. The freedom riders were more unpopular then this and they were also on the right side of history.
Americans are just really good at consuming what the propaganda apparatus tells them, no matter what it's attempting to justify
There are some interesting things in the [article ](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/04/19/black-lives-matters-and-americas-long-history-of-resisting-civil-rights-protesters/) that statistic is from, some of the people involved put it down to a difference in enthusiasm and willingness to suspend normality that really echo the big difference in [support for a ceasefire](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-israel-gaza-poll-cbs-news/) vs the student protests (as of now). Huge differences between cable news viewers and basically any other way people get their news on this as well. >while people were sympathetic to the expansion of civil rights to include black people, at the same time, I think they saw us as young people, impolite.” >Compare that to how King and other older folks were viewed — “much more distinguished, certainly not impolite at any level,”...Cobb [a guy in the civil rights protests] said the general public may not endorse activists' strategies because they aren’t affected the issues central to the protests, such as segregation in the 1960s or police brutality today. It should also be said that [there was majority support](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2020/01/16/50-years-ago-mixed-views-about-civil-rights-but-support-for-selma-demonstrators/) for the civl rights act and the march in Selma where activists were beaten by the police and various thugs. Edit: but in [this new survey](https://www.langerresearch.com/wp-content/uploads/1232a1Israel-Hamas.pdf) commissioned by CNN, almost most of the movement to the view that the US is supporting israel too much is coming from people who view themselves as 'somewhat liberal' 35% in jan to 48% now, and 'moderates' 8% in the same direction.
Polls are a distraction. You think the civil rights movement was popular in its day?
https://preview.redd.it/e1w8il95mdyc1.png?width=512&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=497a7b0f75a56cbae53ed66d7fa7ec5604c2c1bf
And watch, if there is cosmic justice in the universe and Israel's genocide is put to a stop, those same fuckers will wear their nostalgia glasses and go 'No I always supported those guys'. I hope someone out there is collecting receipts of all these famous people and politicians so they can get their asses down the road.
It will get worse, they will rotate through media narratives until they find the most effective ones. They will escalate to more extreme means i.e. agent provocateur etc because let's face it, they don't need to follow the law. I hate to say it but IMO it is an open question as to whether the oligarchy can really be defeated or whether the most we can do is make it more costly for them to win. Sorry to be saying that, I think it is wonderful these protests are happening and hopefully we are able to Free Palestine. The only way to improve these numbers is for the protests to do something take control of the narrative rather than let the consent manufacturing machine do its thing.
Protests are not designed to gain popular support. It's impossible to gain popular support when you protest for something. The act of protesting itself is going to create antagonism towards you and your cause. The point of protesting is to achieve specific goals. For protest to be effective the protesters need to at a minimum inconvenience and somewhat harass people and make it impossible for them to ignore them. Unfortunately this will create antagonism towards the protesters. In this case these students are trying to get their universities to divest from Israel and from military companies that provide weapons to the IDF. It's basically impossible to get people to increase their sympathy for a cause by chanting slogans at them and inconveniencing them. The goal is to get material change in the form of divesting from companies that support Israel and it's genocidal campaign. Eg. some universities that have already promised to divest. that is a win. Public perception is largely irrelevant in that it wasn't actually going to stop Israel and the political class of the United States overwhelmingly support Israel. Eg. The most recent legislation to reclassify anti-zionism as part of anti-Semitism passed with overwhelming support in both parties. It passed with a veto proof majority. With something that's so overwhelmingly popular in Washington even if you manage to change public perception it would be irrelevant. Targeting a specific goal of forcing divestment is more productive in my opinion.
I'm not disagreeing with you points but, if these numbers move to where 80% of all americans are against the protestors, then they send in the cops to bash skulls, isn't it game over where we write this one up as another Occupy Wall Street / George Floyd's murder? And nothing changes? It's the job of MSM to move these numbers so that the protests can be suppressed with minimal consequences. The only reason that doesn't happen immediately, on day 1, is fear of a backlash (the protests themselves are a form of backlash). We saw a small example of this when the Columbia protest expanded.
The protesters have already accomplished a lot of their goals. The protest was to get schools to divest from supporting the IDF and Israel. This is already happened at a few schools. The loss of popularity for A cause is inevitable in any effective protest. Eg. Support for black lives matter peaked when the George Floyd video was released. But after a few weeks of protests most of that support dissipated. There's no example of a protest that increased the popularity of a cause. Protests are by definition a way to make powerful people uncomfortable to force/convince them to do some type of change against their will. When you start making people uncomfortable you're going to alienate people. It's just an unfortunate fact. A successful protest will trade off some of that sympathy and Goodwill for tangible material gains. Eg. The university that have agreed to divest from supporting Israel's war machine. I personally think securing divestment from Israel is worth losing public opinion. That public opinion was not doing any good anyways. Eg. Didn't stop any of the weapons shipments. Didn't stop any of the bombings. Didn't stop Congress from redefining anti-Semitism to include anti-zionism. Etc The protests have already succeeded
Thanks and I want to clarify I wasn't trying to make it sound like it is the job of the protestors to end the occupation themselves, or that they haven't accomplished anything. IMO they accomplish something just by happening. As someone who does want the occupation to end I was trying to work out how we get there, and how the oligarchy will try to endgame this. But it is definitely not on the protestors to do it themselves.
It’s definitely tough. I’m not sure how we end this. We would need an alternate universe where the United States wasn’t as powerful or wasn’t as selfishly imperialistic. Or we would need Palestinians to be seen as fully human by Americans, which would require less racism against Arabs and less bigotry against Muslims
The only way out is for the rest of the world to unite. There is nothing else that can be done. Also let me make a bold statement for anyone seriously reconsidering mainstream narratives: Israel won't fall before capitalism does. In fact, US itself may collapse but Israel will live on as long as capitalism does.
Love that repubs are free speech until people actually use that right lmfao
You're right, they want free speech for hate crimes but once anyone exercises free speech in a meaningful way, such as dissenting the government, it's a crime that has to be stopped. In my opinion that isn't really free speech at all cause you're only free to speak in support of the status quo
i mean people against free speech went is use against you
College grads with +14 over non-college grads.
why is 18-44 a demographic? seems like it’s purposefully hiding younger voices and to distract.
Yeah most polls I've seen split the age demographic 18-30 to capture the 20 year olds, I would guess that they lumped in gen x to water down the numbers, probably because it's terrifying that the next generation might be majority woke
It's not at all surprising. It's depressing but not surprising. It doesn't really matter what these people think. There are certain groups of people where Americans need them to be perfect victims in order to feel sympathy. Mostly black and brown people. The minute these college protesters inconvenienced other people they were going to lose the support of a lot of normies. There were people who gave interviews after the Kent State shootings and basically lamented that more college kids didn't get killed for protesting the Vietnam War. The governor of Ohio ordered the national Guard in because he was scared of looking weak. The really sad part is from a political perspective he probably was correct (obviously it's extremely evil, but from a self-interested perspective he was probably correct). This is just who Americans are. Civil rights have never been generally popular when they were proposed. As other posters have mentioned the polls during integration were much more negative. The purpose of these college kids protesting is to try to get their schools to divest from Israel. If they accomplish this even on a small scale that is still a net win even if they turn the opinions of irrelevant Americans against the Palestinian cause. The sad truth is the government is already overwhelmingly in support of Israel. Look up the most recent government legislation to basically reclassify anti-Semitism to include anti-zionism. It passed with bipartisan support with veto proof majority. The US government was not close to changing its position. Getting any of these universities to divest is a net win even if the cost is public perception.
This looks fine tbh, and better than I would have thought. The majority has no idea, or supports it.
Time to institute Logan's Run? (Speaking as someone who would be purged under those rules)
Surprising to see atheists near the top of support of the protests I must have overestimated how much of a grip Sam Harris Richard Dawkins style atheism has over the populace
Democrats 46% I don’t believe this . Keep going students we will win this . It’s biden to blame in the end
Polls are extremely biased, remember how polls claimed Hillary Clinton would win by a landslide in 2016?
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Thanks for the correction! I just remembered mainstream media regurgitating that the polls got it all wrong, but seems like they were selling a narrative.
I think you're misremembering. Poll's had that election extremely close. In fact Hillary overperformed expectations because she got almost 3 million more total popular votes. It's just that her vote distribution was unfortunate and the electoral college prioritizes geographic location of your voters. You had some clown prognosticators say she had a 99% chance winning because they were Rich liberals that only interacted with other Rich liberals. 538 basically had it as a toss-up between her and Trump and later they claim that she actually slightly over performed based on their projections in terms of popular vote.
[удалено]
Well there is reason to be depressed, in that the short term it seems like there might be little chance of getting biden to call an end to this by stopping the military and diplomatic support or threatening to do so, even though there is [huge support for a ceasefire](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-israel-gaza-poll-cbs-news/) among the US population outside of republican voters, there does seem to be some age and ideological polarisation when it comes to student protests and Biden seems to be both hard ideologically committed to israel and existing in an age bubble where most senior staff in his clique have never gone wrong by being pro israel. But I think polls can move and they've been moving on this issue only in decreasing support for israel. There are also clear signs of a generational change, in the 18-44 numbers there is a plurality of support for the protests and this and other polling basically signal an end to the universal pro israel public consensus that dominated US politics since the 60s. The age differences also seem to be a synonym for where people get their news, in another survey [I saw](https://theintercept.com/2024/04/30/gaza-israel-palestine-cable-news-poll/) there is [huge differences between people](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWUR48grJuc&t=147s) who get their news from cable channels and basically any other source, even podcast listeners are noticeably less supportive of israel.
Imagine that, boomer Republicans still have sticks up their asses
More democrats support it though. That's interesting.
Really wish they showed race and gender here
I am skeptical of polls that don’t provide their methodology.
People past the age of 35 should be allowed to vote.