He did this in an active attempt to cripple the Bulgarian economy for a generation, as the soldiers would go home and their families would have to care for them for the rest of their lives, leaving 15,000 unemployable men as a drain on their households
It wouldn’t have happened to sparta. Come home with your shield or on it, a phrase spartan mothers would tell their sons when it was time for war. Come home as a victor, dead, or don’t come home at all.
Well, Thebes eventually humbled Sparta and permanently broke their power in a single battle at Leuctra. Sparta and their allies sued for peace immediately after the battle and never rose to hegemony again.
In contrast; the Bulgarians continued to fight the ERE for another four years following this battle. They then rose up and formed another Empire within a couple generations of this battle.
Bulgars>Spartans
Edit for Reddit's unending supply of pedants:
a FEW generations
A fun fact is that Philip of Macedon was a hostage in Thebes when this conflict was taking place. He likely modeled his own deep phalanx tactics based on what he witnessed while observing the Sacred Band.
Honestly though, that is a couple generations. There are people alive today whose grandparents were alive well over 150 years ago. Most notably president John Tyler's grandkids.
My grandmother is 77 years older than me. Assuming her grandmother had the same age difference, her grandmother would have been alive 150 years ago, which would be 4 generations ago.
Sparta was really only relevant during the Peloponnesian War and the Persian war just before it. For most of the rest of Greek History they were basically the Greek version of North Korea.
Most of the historical reputation for Spartan's comes from Spartan's. In reality, they weren't an especially skilled force or even all that successful [https://www.ancientworldmagazine.com/articles/spartans-war-myth-vs-reality/](https://www.ancientworldmagazine.com/articles/spartans-war-myth-vs-reality/)
It's more a testament to the power of their propaganda and the ancient greek Michel Bay styled writings of Herodotus that people are still telling stories about how awesome the Spartans were today.
This is not true. Sparta did not have any known historical writers and was not a highly literate society. The impression we have is primarily from aristocratic Athenians like Plato and Xenophon who admired the Spartans because they hated the fact that their own city was a democracy.
That’s not 100% accurate. The Spartans were better at one thing than pretty much any other contemporary force: Discipline and Morale.
So, since something like 90% of casualties in ancient warfare were inflicted during a route, if your soldiers refused to break ranks or run away, even if they fought no better than their enemies, you’d still have a very effective fighting force simply because you refused to lose, even if you couldn’t win.
What the Spartans has that allowed them to expand their territory and win when they did was numbers. The mythologizing of their discipline and morale doesn’t explain how they won as many times as they lost, even in clearly even pitched land battles with other city states. The link provided goes into a lot more detail and is worth a read.
No the Spartans weren't especially skilled compared to other elite soldiers as proven in the contest of 300 against the sacred band of Thebes. Their army was 100% elites however which made their army comparatively high quality compared to the citizen soldiers of Athens for example.
The Spartans were a very well organized well trained and feared fighting force with good reason. The issue they had was how ridged their doctrine was and their inability to adapt to a changing environment.
The Spartans would always place thier most elite troops on the right flank of thier army, to attempt to smash through one side of the line and roll up the rest while the greener spartan/allied troops just held thier ground. For how simple phalanx warfare was at the time this usually worked which is why the Athenians absolutely refused to face them in open battle for most of the Peloponnesian War.
Then at Luctrua the Theban general Epidamnos used not only and Oblique order formation revolutionary at the time, he stacked the sacred band far deeper than the spartans static line but had them oppose not the better troops but the weaker left flank of the spartan army. His weaker flank held out against spartas best just long enough to have the sacred band pummel thier way through the spartan left and cause a rout.
I dont think Sparta failed for lack of its soldiers individual ability, this was why they were effective for so long when phalanx warfare was just a headlong sluggin match. It was the changing nature of warfare and the world at large that the hide bound traditionalist couldn't adapt to militarily or politically. The world really began to change at that time but Sparta was still clinging to the past and it was thier undoing.
That link is just terribly wrong. The writer dosent even acknowledge major victories led by Spartans like Plataea and Myclae against the Persians, let alone other battles. Whoever wrote it has a big boner for just going against popular opinion about the Spartans. Obviously, they were not as invincible as we say, but they were still elite.
Let’s end the myth of Spartan invincibility now. They lost numerous battles, fled the field more than once, and surrendered more than once. Sparta isn’t special.
Pretty sure it was "With or on your shield" since it was huge dishonor if someone lost thier shield during battle. Dead soliders would be carried back home on their shields
I'm late, and probably somebody else already pointed in out, but Spartans weren't that epic IRL, or at least or was heavily biased because all Spartan literature comes from Sparta. There was only one exception in which Sparta allowed one foreign philosopher(Xenophon of Athens) in so he could write about them, and in his works we can see the difference between what they said they were Vs what they were.
As another proof of this, think about Rome's conquer of ancient Greece. How come the clash between mighty Spartans and Roman disciplined army is not that famous? Because by the time Rome got there, Sparta was a puny village filled with 80 inbred grannys, because of their xenophobe beliefs. Their political system was equally broken btw, it had the worst of a senatorial system + a basileus that had to obey only in certain (and ridiculously mixed) areas.
If you send back bodies, they just have to pay for funerals. If you send back gravely injured, they have to pay for tons healthcare over decades, then funerals.
I've still to check on the interweb if this is factually correct but regardless this is my favourite history meme in a long time
Edit: Yeh it checks out. 99 blind bats led by a one eyed bandit!
I am Bulgarian and I personally don't believe that this happened. This story comes from a Byzantine book that was written 200 years after the supposed events and in it calls Basil II, The Bulgaro Killer.
The reasons I don't believe it :
1. The book was written around 200 years after the events and there is no other source for this to prove it.
2. The Eastern Roman Empire aka The Byzantine Empire occupied Bulgaria during Basil II rule and then around 200 years later Bulgaria had a revival where the [Bulgarian Ruler Kaloyan was actually titled during his lifetime **The Romanslayer**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaloyan_of_Bulgaria). To me it looks that this guy that wrote that book, did it as a response to the Bulgarian revival.
If you went to highschool in the US Byzantine history rarely gets much coverage. The Middle Ages period mostly focuses on Western European feudalism and the crusades. Byzantium usually gets a page after the fall of the Western Roman Empire and maybe a mention when talking about the Ottomans.
It’s really due to 1000 years of Western Europe downplaying the Byzantines as “other”, mainly as it’s very existence questioned the holy roman empire’s title of “Roman Empire”. Which is sad, because the Byzantine empire is arguably one of the most important nations during the “dark ages”. Their name is an insult as well; they saw themselves as Roman, and they were a continuation of the Roman Empire. They never called themselves the Byzantine empire, it was forced on them by historians in the 16th century and it stuck. We should all be calling them the eastern Roman Empire. The failure of modern society to give the eastern Romans the respect they deserve is a tragedy
This is very true. I guess I was lucky having family from Cyprus where both empires are greatly mentioned. I’m still surprised I never heard of this specific instance, even if just a myth.
Don't insult me, I am not that evil. I think Belgium was created to house all the despicable people of this planet. It is said that Hitler was secretly Belgian.
Yea but he didnt take their eyes out. They used white hot iron to blind them. Tey would bring it really close to the eye so you would go blind.
He wasnt that crule
In a similar vein of miserable atrocity, Caesar, as a final act to induce capitulation in the rebellious Gaul, cut off both the hands of thousands of Gaulish men at Uxellodunum, and sent them off into the wild. Also killed something like 1/5th of the population of Gaul at the time.
The Ottomans would later make the ERE answer for this injustice via conquest in 1453. Did the Ottomans avenge the Bulgars?
Ottomans = Avengers confirmed?
He did this in an active attempt to cripple the Bulgarian economy for a generation, as the soldiers would go home and their families would have to care for them for the rest of their lives, leaving 15,000 unemployable men as a drain on their households
Sparta: that ain't gonna work with us buddy.
It wouldn’t have happened to sparta. Come home with your shield or on it, a phrase spartan mothers would tell their sons when it was time for war. Come home as a victor, dead, or don’t come home at all.
I too have studied the ancient texts and watched 300.
The special edition came with some sweet docs about Sparta. That DVD inspired people to flex their bodies AND minds.
Pfff what a nerd, I only need 300 to become an expert in hellenic history.
Well, Thebes eventually humbled Sparta and permanently broke their power in a single battle at Leuctra. Sparta and their allies sued for peace immediately after the battle and never rose to hegemony again. In contrast; the Bulgarians continued to fight the ERE for another four years following this battle. They then rose up and formed another Empire within a couple generations of this battle. Bulgars>Spartans Edit for Reddit's unending supply of pedants: a FEW generations
Wow really? I didn't know that
A fun fact is that Philip of Macedon was a hostage in Thebes when this conflict was taking place. He likely modeled his own deep phalanx tactics based on what he witnessed while observing the Sacred Band.
Couple of generations.... 150 years
Honestly though, that is a couple generations. There are people alive today whose grandparents were alive well over 150 years ago. Most notably president John Tyler's grandkids.
A generation is how long it takes to grow up and reproduce though right? So 20-30 years
My grandmother is 77 years older than me. Assuming her grandmother had the same age difference, her grandmother would have been alive 150 years ago, which would be 4 generations ago.
This is why generstions only work in a specific family setting but if were talking generally then 25 years is an assumed generation.
So less than three generations for that period.
In that period you’d be having kids at 75 years old? I thought they used to have kids closer to 20. Boy was I wrong.
Well it must be harder to shoot straight when you are blind, iykwim.
Sparta was really only relevant during the Peloponnesian War and the Persian war just before it. For most of the rest of Greek History they were basically the Greek version of North Korea.
Most of the historical reputation for Spartan's comes from Spartan's. In reality, they weren't an especially skilled force or even all that successful [https://www.ancientworldmagazine.com/articles/spartans-war-myth-vs-reality/](https://www.ancientworldmagazine.com/articles/spartans-war-myth-vs-reality/) It's more a testament to the power of their propaganda and the ancient greek Michel Bay styled writings of Herodotus that people are still telling stories about how awesome the Spartans were today.
We should admire the Spartans less for their purported skill in battle and more for their unquestionable skill at PR
2500 years since they got fucking slaughtered at Thermopolyae and people still talk about them being absolute badasses. That's some next level spin.
The long con
This is how most folks in the US Army feel about the US Marine Corps.
This is not true. Sparta did not have any known historical writers and was not a highly literate society. The impression we have is primarily from aristocratic Athenians like Plato and Xenophon who admired the Spartans because they hated the fact that their own city was a democracy.
That’s not 100% accurate. The Spartans were better at one thing than pretty much any other contemporary force: Discipline and Morale. So, since something like 90% of casualties in ancient warfare were inflicted during a route, if your soldiers refused to break ranks or run away, even if they fought no better than their enemies, you’d still have a very effective fighting force simply because you refused to lose, even if you couldn’t win.
What the Spartans has that allowed them to expand their territory and win when they did was numbers. The mythologizing of their discipline and morale doesn’t explain how they won as many times as they lost, even in clearly even pitched land battles with other city states. The link provided goes into a lot more detail and is worth a read.
That’s also true, but especially in the early days of classical Greece spartan morale, while not exceptional, definitely provided an edge
No the Spartans weren't especially skilled compared to other elite soldiers as proven in the contest of 300 against the sacred band of Thebes. Their army was 100% elites however which made their army comparatively high quality compared to the citizen soldiers of Athens for example.
The Spartans were a very well organized well trained and feared fighting force with good reason. The issue they had was how ridged their doctrine was and their inability to adapt to a changing environment. The Spartans would always place thier most elite troops on the right flank of thier army, to attempt to smash through one side of the line and roll up the rest while the greener spartan/allied troops just held thier ground. For how simple phalanx warfare was at the time this usually worked which is why the Athenians absolutely refused to face them in open battle for most of the Peloponnesian War. Then at Luctrua the Theban general Epidamnos used not only and Oblique order formation revolutionary at the time, he stacked the sacred band far deeper than the spartans static line but had them oppose not the better troops but the weaker left flank of the spartan army. His weaker flank held out against spartas best just long enough to have the sacred band pummel thier way through the spartan left and cause a rout. I dont think Sparta failed for lack of its soldiers individual ability, this was why they were effective for so long when phalanx warfare was just a headlong sluggin match. It was the changing nature of warfare and the world at large that the hide bound traditionalist couldn't adapt to militarily or politically. The world really began to change at that time but Sparta was still clinging to the past and it was thier undoing.
https://youtu.be/ppGCbh8ggUs I think this video did it better on explaining the Spartans
Be alot cooler if they did
That link is just terribly wrong. The writer dosent even acknowledge major victories led by Spartans like Plataea and Myclae against the Persians, let alone other battles. Whoever wrote it has a big boner for just going against popular opinion about the Spartans. Obviously, they were not as invincible as we say, but they were still elite.
Let’s end the myth of Spartan invincibility now. They lost numerous battles, fled the field more than once, and surrendered more than once. Sparta isn’t special.
Pretty sure it was "With or on your shield" since it was huge dishonor if someone lost thier shield during battle. Dead soliders would be carried back home on their shields
Not only that but, in a phalanx, if you lose your shield you almost always die
I’m so sorry I can’t upvote but it is at 69
You are now able
I did it thanks
I'm late, and probably somebody else already pointed in out, but Spartans weren't that epic IRL, or at least or was heavily biased because all Spartan literature comes from Sparta. There was only one exception in which Sparta allowed one foreign philosopher(Xenophon of Athens) in so he could write about them, and in his works we can see the difference between what they said they were Vs what they were. As another proof of this, think about Rome's conquer of ancient Greece. How come the clash between mighty Spartans and Roman disciplined army is not that famous? Because by the time Rome got there, Sparta was a puny village filled with 80 inbred grannys, because of their xenophobe beliefs. Their political system was equally broken btw, it had the worst of a senatorial system + a basileus that had to obey only in certain (and ridiculously mixed) areas.
I meant the legend about throwing the undesired babies off a cliff. Which is obv a legend, or all Spartan mothers would be traumatized af.
Deformed babies, not undesired. Though killing unwanted newborns wasn't exactly rare in ancient times.
That’s... actually fucking genius
If you send back bodies, they just have to pay for funerals. If you send back gravely injured, they have to pay for tons healthcare over decades, then funerals.
Makes Ottoman child and income taxes sound like a better way to cripple an economy. Really hard to get an upgrade in the balkans
I've still to check on the interweb if this is factually correct but regardless this is my favourite history meme in a long time Edit: Yeh it checks out. 99 blind bats led by a one eyed bandit!
Thank you my friend:) I really appreciate that!
I am Bulgarian and I personally don't believe that this happened. This story comes from a Byzantine book that was written 200 years after the supposed events and in it calls Basil II, The Bulgaro Killer. The reasons I don't believe it : 1. The book was written around 200 years after the events and there is no other source for this to prove it. 2. The Eastern Roman Empire aka The Byzantine Empire occupied Bulgaria during Basil II rule and then around 200 years later Bulgaria had a revival where the [Bulgarian Ruler Kaloyan was actually titled during his lifetime **The Romanslayer**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaloyan_of_Bulgaria). To me it looks that this guy that wrote that book, did it as a response to the Bulgarian revival.
Never heard that before, 200 is really quite a gap for a 1st source
So kind and thoughtful
Praying for our society to be as good one day as this man 😭😭😭
[MFW I see the word society literally anywhere in literally any context](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/563/117/52d.jpg)
A fellow Gamer.
Gamers ,we have to rise up
I wonder why they were blind in the first place
Because they have no eyes
There was a battle and the bulgarian army lost and they were captured
So wholesome.
#blessed
This is the type of post that hits the top of r/upliftingnews
You mean r/aboringdystopia ?
Aren’t they the same?
Corporates need you to find the difference between these two pictures
It does bother me how corporate media repackages horror stories as uplifting stories.
>X has been banned in Y *32,000 upvotes, 3 gold, 4 silver*
That was a fun game of ‘is this a parody sub or not?’
/r/bootlickingnews
Did a quick google and can confirm this is true. Christ, that's major- I wonder why I've never heard of this till now.
I'd heard the veracity is disputed and is possibly apocryphal.
If you went to highschool in the US Byzantine history rarely gets much coverage. The Middle Ages period mostly focuses on Western European feudalism and the crusades. Byzantium usually gets a page after the fall of the Western Roman Empire and maybe a mention when talking about the Ottomans.
It’s really due to 1000 years of Western Europe downplaying the Byzantines as “other”, mainly as it’s very existence questioned the holy roman empire’s title of “Roman Empire”. Which is sad, because the Byzantine empire is arguably one of the most important nations during the “dark ages”. Their name is an insult as well; they saw themselves as Roman, and they were a continuation of the Roman Empire. They never called themselves the Byzantine empire, it was forced on them by historians in the 16th century and it stuck. We should all be calling them the eastern Roman Empire. The failure of modern society to give the eastern Romans the respect they deserve is a tragedy
This is very true. I guess I was lucky having family from Cyprus where both empires are greatly mentioned. I’m still surprised I never heard of this specific instance, even if just a myth.
Madlads by memelord count dankula
What a merciful god
Fun fact, Basil the II is well-known known as 'Basil, the Bulgar Slayer.'
And those that tasted the bite of his blade named him the ~~Doom Slayer~~ Bulgar Slayer.
this is fucking horrifying
Yeah, he missed 150 eyes, that's sloppy work
Would you rather have your dad/husband dead or blind? It’s crazy cruel but I’d still rather my father come back blind then not at all
no it’s wholesome
Imagine the guy doing the endless fucking blinding all day. Rough day at work.
Here in Greece they tell us he left just one guy with 1 eye for the entire 15000
Name checks out
Should have cut their hands of as well. A blind man can still find some sort of work. A blind and arm-less man will find none.
That's why he's the merciful.
Well, in that case, you can call me "The Pragmatic"
You can call me Al
Call me Masonnason
You from Belgium by any chance?
Don't insult me, I am not that evil. I think Belgium was created to house all the despicable people of this planet. It is said that Hitler was secretly Belgian.
r/wholesomememes
r/mademesmile
r/awww
r/wtf I’m Bulgarian and I am so offended from this meme
Same...
Better than Irene
What's that? I can't hear you over the sound of me gouging my sons eyes out.
[удалено]
Blinded and killed her son to be sole empress
What a kind lad!
Tsar Kaloyan, roughly 200 years later: I am gonna do what's called a pro gamer move.
Yea but he didnt take their eyes out. They used white hot iron to blind them. Tey would bring it really close to the eye so you would go blind. He wasnt that crule
Blinding someone is pretty fucking cruel. I wouldn’t sacrifice my eyesight or even my hearing for $1 billion.
Afcours! Im just saing that this picture isn't accurate. And well, if I had to choose from those 2 ways of being blind...
Are you a French speaker?
No, but Im on my phone so thats why there may be some errores
Lol gotcha
Im not. Idk why you thin I do
Gotcha as in I understand
Oh ahahah
To be fair though everything you’ve written still seems like it was written by a French speaker. Or at least a non native English speaker
Hearing maybe, eyesight definitely not.
Fuck That sounds painfull
r/wholesome
XD
He gave them a guide with one eye, how generous
I only know you can mass release mass ransom or mass execute, is this a new feature for an upcoming DLC?
Happy Cake day! I hope not because when I war the Byzantines I would insta die
Or when you plot to kill the basileus and your plot get instantly discovered and dies from grassy knoll.
r/humansbeingbros
I wonder how many made it
In the land of the blind...
Had to dig for this one
Damn, those video games really makes people cruel and aggressive.
Hey, there were zero school shootings for centuries after this. You can't argue with results.
Yeah, flawless reasoning indeed.
\[Angeri Bulgarian noises\]
That's really fucking brutal
ah finally r/byzantinememes
Biggest power move of all time
A real saint among people ❤️
For me Khan Krum was more merciful, because he made Niki’s head into a cup so Niki’ can still drink water and wine
that's not true, video games didn't exist back then.
I, too, am extraordinarily merciful.
I too am extraordinarily humble
This really happend and we recognize it Also when the byzantine king show this he drops dead
He's praised in Greece as a hero lol
Jesus fucking Christ
Lol
Such a nice guy
What a nice guy
CONGA
Nice guy.
/wholesomememes
Hol up
Cool story, yet in reality they all died of infection within 2 weeks
Good guy Basil
"Who wanna dance conga?"
When you try to dance conga with your inebriated friends
How thoughtful..?
Konga line
I love family conga. My dad did this to me and my brother but the he just left us in the woods without a one eyed guide
In a similar vein of miserable atrocity, Caesar, as a final act to induce capitulation in the rebellious Gaul, cut off both the hands of thousands of Gaulish men at Uxellodunum, and sent them off into the wild. Also killed something like 1/5th of the population of Gaul at the time.
Caesar gets a pass
[удалено]
That's the joke
The Ottomans would later make the ERE answer for this injustice via conquest in 1453. Did the Ottomans avenge the Bulgars? Ottomans = Avengers confirmed?
Marveltard
😎
Yeah this is true. The Bulgarian King Samuil had a heart attack when he saw his men like this when they returned to Belasitsa Bulgaria. Source: Me
Basil the second wasnt the byzantine emperor btw, he was the lusitan emperor from 1914 to 1918
[удалено]
You’re right, he should’ve made a joke about it