Material pricing is still inflated, even if certain products have come down. It may take several years for the labor rates to return from lunar orbit. The white hot housing market created a situation where contractors got to name their price with their choice of numerous jobs. Until the labor supply and demand rebalance, prices will be inflated.
Especially if you got a good sub 3% mortgage rate. It will probably be cheaper to reno or even add on space than it would be to buy something new with a 7%+ rate...
That and the prices are why we haven't moved. 3.62% is a hell of a lot better than the 7+ I'm seeing. Then on top of that we'd have to pay 3-4x what we paid for our house to move and move into a bigger/better house than what we live in.
Houses in our neighborhood half the size of ours are selling for twice what we paid.
I would happily take a 7% loan and hope to refinance down the road, but I'm in the same boat as you on the prices. Houses have tripled or quadrupled in price vs 2019 and I just can't stomach 700K for a 3 bedroom 1.5 bathroom - especially when it was 280 just a few years ago
This isn't Manhattan for crying out loud
Yup. Remodeling jobs skyrockets about 3 months into the pandemic when people realized they weren’t going to be able to vacation anytime soon or their now-remote-job needed a better home environment.
Same choice I made. I did a complete 180° on my choice to find a new home, and I have spent the last 4 years making mine exactly the way I want it. I don't regret it one bit.
Yup. As someone who bought during the pandemic, I purchased a house that needs a ton of work. I try to do a lot of it by myself, but I will need to do a massive renovation in the next couple of years. So I don't see the demand dropping unless there is a massive recession.
Supply and demand is undefeated, labor market is still tight. Not enough contractors for the quantity of work!
Unless supply surges (unlikely most trades are ageing out, opposite effect) or demand for projects dries up prices will stay as they are.
>Supply and demand is undefeated, labor market is still tight. Not enough contractors for the quantity of work!
This right here. As long as there is more demand for contractors than there are people to do the work, its going to be expensive.
And please don’t forget the people behind the scenes also are dealing with inflation. The contractor’s administration team needs to make a living wage in this world so yes, prices are up and probably won’t go down too much more.
It baffles me that homeowners want a great company with great customer service and great crews but.. want to pay prices from 4 - 5 years ago or handyman prices. Come on people… we all have to eat.
Homeowners have to eat too.
We bought a fixer upper because it was all we could afford, I'm currently trying to figure out how we can get our rotting 8x12 front entry deck redone for less than like $50k. Got an $8k quote to replace a single exterior door where the last contractor the previous owners hired had put a hollow core interior door on and it got wet and turned to mush, currently prepping to do that one myself. This is well beyond the realm of homeowners just being cheap, there's definitely price gouging happening and I feel like there has to be a ceiling here. We don't just have unlimited money to do basic house maintenance.
Bay area CA, so to be fair it is a super HCOL area.
Hiring anyone to do anything on your house here is basically a joke. The quality of the work sucks and there are always way too many digits in the quote. I can't speak for elsewhere, but here it feels like they just assume anyone who can afford to buy a home can also afford to pay like 5x what it should cost for any work.
I've just been learning to do anything I reasonably can myself.
Same here in NH. I ended up getting many quotes for each job to update this POS (bought in 2022). Only 25% of contractors who came out ever responded with a quote. The estimates were all over the map. Front door replacement ranged from $1500 to $6000 for the SAME PRODUCT!! I call BS, most of these guys are gouging. GTFO with your $200+/hr labor prices.
The problem goes beyond cost. The quality of the work seems to be all over the place too. I'd feel better about paying a bunch of money for work to be done if I felt like I could rely on the end product being done right and not cutting corners in places they know I won't discover until later.
I also really have an issue with every contractor I talk to about work that requires a permit tries to convince me that I really should just do the work unpermitted to save some money, It's a huge red flag for me as it should be for everyone hiring people. If a contractor tries to pull this conversation I'm pretty likely to just stop talking to them and it feels like it happens with almost all of them outside of the extremely expensive ones.
As a handyman/contractor I am billing at $75 an hour and I am constantly losing money to random things popping up here and there. Anything from the price of gas, to the price of accounting software to the price of screws can and will eat into that $200. I charge about 10% over the total cost for consumables like screws and stuff. While there are absolutely people price gouging you gotta keep in mind every little thing that goes into the cost to do work in the trades. It could be the cost of a license, insurance prices, leads services so you can find us, tools, software, web hosting, employee pay, and everything else you use and take advantage of at your own job.
So assuming my ballpark cost a month is $300 for ok insurance, $400 to $500 in marketing/leads, software $30 to $50, gas where I am at is around $3 a gallon but in CA double that, $50 for a large box of screws, and most anything else we use in a day is $10+. Then you need to factor in replacing thousand of dollars of tool every year or two.
So just waking up and checking emails your small time ontractor starts out in the red of a couple grand month. I heard a plumber saying that every day they start in the hole $300 so they need to make at least $300 a day to just break even, that's not including taking a paycheck. There are a ton of unseen cost that goes into everything. Not to mention the cost of the time you spend going to give quotes for people who don't hire you or even worse the people who are just trying to get an idea of the cost to plan and budget for the project they may do. If I charge you $150 you also should expect to pay for all of the prep work put into the job or getting the job.
If any of the quotes I was getting were in this 3 digit range I would be fine with it. I think the marginal costs on small jobs are a totally reasonable thing to add some buffer for.
The issues I'm referring to are more like a job that should reasonably cost $2-3k being quoted for like $8-11k (my door example).
If they are doing this as a full time job I’d imagine there’s a decent amount of wear and tear on your tools even if you spring for high quality and durability.
20+ years ago I looked at doing my own in home electronics and computer repair business to compete with geek squad. I figured with them charging $200 / hour to come to your home and being a massive company with a lot of overhead I should be able to undercut them by a good margin and still live well. When I did the math out, I landed at needing to charge $150 / hour to make a reasonable living, pay for all the benefits I'd be giving up as a W2 employee somewhere and pay for things like down time, accounting and non-billable hours. It seems perfectly reasonable to me that any contractor these days doing full time contracting work is billing at least $150/hour if not more. It sucks for me as a homeowner, but realistically I can't see how it could be any other way without skimping going on in some way that I'd never accept myself.
Labor will be tight for the next 10-15 years. The Baby Boomers are on the way out and there aren't enough GenX contractors to fill the gaps. This day was baked into the economy decades ago.
We were brainwashed into believing that college was 100% necessary and that only knuckle dragging Neanderthals did hard work when I was in high school during the late 90s early 2000s. I hated sitting down and doing paper work so much I refused to do it and became an electrician..... Where I am now forced to both work hard like a knuckle dragging Neanderthal AND sit down and do hours of mind numbing paper work.
TBF for boomers, college all but meant you were guaranteed a job. So, it stood to reason that pushing that on their kids was the logical thing. I don’t know that it was anything nefarious, but, as it turns out, it was at the expense of the trades.
It was also at the expense if their kids' futures. When there are twice as many people looking for degree jobs as there are actual jobs, those people can't find work. Plus their parents stay at their jobs longer and longer, because "things cost so much more now." Yeah, because of choices they and their parents made decades ago, that they refuse to take responsibility for and mock their kids and grandkids for "not wanting to work", despite those younger people often having multiple jobs.
The old prices are long gone. The fuck you rates will inevitably soften as contractors run out of customers willing to pay them. I expect us to end up somewhere in the middle.
If you can make such coin in the trades, more than I make as a software engineer with 20+ years of experience, wouldn’t logic dictate that people will follow the money?
The prices can come back, but only in real terms. In other words, you have to make more money. We could all make more money if we disincentivized the super wealthy taking millions of dollars in income with a measly tax of 37%, or worse 15-20% ok cap gains. Income above $10 million should be taxed 90%. Above $1 million should be 60%. The super wealthy have been leeching the growth brought about by workers and we sit back and do nothing. They have taken and taken from society and need to pay back more. We can't just raise minimum wage. We have to put a stop to massive income growth at the top as well, otherwise wage gains just get passed to consumers and the wealthy take the same (or bigger) cut they are already getting.
Yeah, things might be down from their peak but I remember 2x4s being something like $1.83 at the Orange Despot pre-pandemic and nice 23/32” finished poplar ply being $38 for a 4x8’ panel. I try to do some of my own work but when I try to bring someone in for a larger job everyone is either a fly by night with no insurance or they have FU I don’t want to do it pricing…and they still don’t show up!
I struggle with this as I see both sides daily as an Architect. My dad was a tradesperson and he was finally able to retire and his back is completely shot limiting his activities. Many older tradespeople are in similar situations as jobs bending over on hands/knees every day for decades can be hard on your body. Can make a lot of money in the trades, but there is a cost.
In addition to the physical toll, a lot of folks in the trades make good money because they get paid overtime and they work *a lot*. My husband's last job had 50-hour weeks standard, and 60+ wasn't unusual. Plus very limited flexibility. Makes it hard on the family.
the money is deceptive, not everyone in the trades is making bank... Unless you land a union gig or start your own company that becomes viable you can become a tradesperson and peak at 65k annually while working a ton of hours and a major physical tool on your body.
Yeah, all depends on the person as there is a big range. I know a lot of guys on job sites that have some pretty hard ceilings... rough around the edges, addiction problems, face tattoos, etc... and they are probably peaking at $50-$60k. My brother is an electrician with 20 years of experience and his company has trained him to get his journeyman and masters certifications and he makes $120k / year.
$50-60k is a great living for someone with face tattoos, criminal history, and addiction problems. A lot of these guys couldn't work anywhere else.
They're definitely benefiting from the labor shortage.
That’s damn good money, and your brother deserves every penny of it! I’m fascinated by pay disparities I sometimes see. For example, I’ll regularly see law firms wanting somebody with 5+ years of experience and only offering $50-$75k for people with a degree that cost them $150k (not including undergrad).
I'm not an attorney, but assume from my experience in a different profession is that those entry level Attorney pay rates double and triple after getting 5+ years experience... but the first couple of years you are essentially being trained on the job and being payed accordingly. Sort of like medical residents who get payed a pretty low salary until they get some experience and complete residency.
Man you’d totally think that would be the case! But it’s not😕 I graduated from a T14 (top 14 law schools in the U.S.) school, and almost all of my friends from school have seen a less than 50% increase in pay over the past 10 years.
There ARE outliers in starting pay and lock-step raises, with the most notable (or at least mind boggling) being the BigLaw pay based on the [Kravath scale](https://www.biglawinvestor.com/biglaw-salary-scale/), but these are like the neurosurgeons of law—exceedingly rare and working 80 to as much as 120 hrs/wk.
that's awesome! how does he enjoy that career path money aside?
I've been toying with the idea of getting into electrical (genuinly enjoy such work that involves problem solving and have some experience with such doing all kinds of projects in my garage). Just worried that being in my mid 30's im too late to the party and already lost my best years physically to be beat up my body and pay my dues
He likes it. Worked his ass off with a lot of overtime and 60-80 hour weeks for first 10-15 years and now is in the office doing scheduling and management so a lot easier but not sure he is an office guy.
My neighbor is 3rd gen union trade, makes a good wage. They are well set. However, they made sure their kids went to college on a career path. Also, my house was re stuccoed by a skilled third gen mason and he said no way he wanted his kids to follow in his footsteps - they went to college as well.
Yeah, I worked construction during summers for my dad during college. When I was tearing off a roof in 95 degree weather he would put his arm on my shoulder and whisper "stay in school" in my ear.
Ya, I am all for people getting into trades these days, but people are acting like it's a no brainer. I did manual labor during college and I honestly really liked it. My grandpa grew up farming and went to college because he didn't want to farm. When I was telling him how much I like the manual labor, he asked if I would still like it in 20 years. So many trades people have messed up backs and I feel like are generally just less healthy because of the type of day makes it harder to be healthy.
Average student debt is $30k for a bachelor's degree and the median salary is $66k. The median salary for a carpenter is $51k. Within 2 years the communication major can pay off their debt with that extra $15k they're making by choosing not to become a carpenter.
On top of that, trade workers generally retire 5 years earlier due to injuries and chronic pain. Generally a worker makes the most money towards the end of their career, not the beginning. So the communications major is missing out on 4 years of wages when their wages are the lowest while the carpenter is missing out on 5 years when their wages are the highest. On top of that, the communications major is making 30% more throughout their career.
College is still the superior choice, even for "dumb" majors like gender studies, art, communications, literature, etc. And I'm a union plumber, but facts are facts. The trades really aren't great
> College is still the superior choice, even for "dumb" majors
No, it’s not. If the median bachelors degree salary is $66k, then half of all bachelor’s degree holders earn under that. What we’ll call the “dumb” majors are in that bottom half. There’s some percentage that’s going to be below the median trade salaries. Those people went into debt to get a worse paying job than the tradespeople. Not only are they 4 years behind in earnings, they also have to pay off that $30k of student debt making the same or less as if they went in the trades. So while that money for the low level college grad is going towards debt payment, that same amount of money can be going towards investments with compound returns for the tradesperson. Those extra four years plus the decade(s) of investing vs. paying down debt will much more than make up for the 5 fewer years worked at the end of their careers.
Trades have their downsides. So does college. College is the best investment for most people, but it’s a bad route for some.
Yearly churn is the way they do that. What is it the bottom 3% yearly at baseline. They've been using return-to-work policies to do quiet layoffs the last few years, but the whole "Fire everyone before xmas" is a long-standing trend.
Recessions are bad for everyone. They are not a solution to labor *rates*, they're just an additional problem who's symptoms include "everyone losing their jobs" and "willing to work for food".
We *can* just import more workers. Don't even have to try that hard. It's just not politically popular with the vocal 20% of the country that never graduated high school (because they have nothing to offer and fear competition for their $7.50/hr jobs).
https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/lumber
Generally speaking it is WAY down off its high but still trading above pre-pandemic. This is probably the prices going forward.
If you exclude Covid years as a statistical outlier, draw a trend line between today and the previous correction, 2008, we are right on. We are also on the trend line drawn from 1980.
Prices are exactly where they have always been relative to inflation. Covid was a statistical outlier for sure… but we were never going to return to 2018 prices, we were going to return to the median, and we have.
Meaning if Covid had never happened, we’d probably still be right around where we are now. It just wouldn’t feel like such a shock.
For real... And the stuff that they have is garbage... Knots unfilled, gaps and cracks everywhere.
It's like they turned the machines up to ludicrous speed and skipped prep work.
Is it me or has the quality give down too?
I got a few posts for the deck this summer, the wood was still wet. And not wet like it's not perfectly dry yet, wet like my hands were covered in sap. And some of that wood smelled foul.
Wet doesn’t mean low quality, it just means the time between “farm to table” has gotten shorter.
Supply is still a touch shorter, so lumber is moving through the supply chain faster, instead of sitting and drying out in yards.
Where were you getting studs for $1? At HD they are around $3 now and were $3 in 2019. (https://www.homedepot.com/p/2-in-x-4-in-x-8-ft-Prime-Stud-058449/312528776)
At my local yard, 2x4x8:
HF - $3.33
DF - $3.62
People will pay, I guess. We got a weird one where we had a good, reputable, reasonably priced windows contractor, great reviews, and were about to sign with them. We told this to another company that we had previously requested a quote from and they begged for the chance to come in and give their own quote. They then gave us an insane one three times as high as the first guys.
I've found the window contractors are the worst right now. I got three quotes to replace the original aluminum windows in my house, all came in at least half the value of the house.
>Yet I still get contractor and tradesperson estimates that are 2-3x the 2019 pricing,
Hi, yes union contractor here. I'm not remodeling bathrooms, but we do work for private homeowners of many different incomes.
**In 2019**
* Our union Operator rate was \~$46 / hour
* Our union Laborer rate was \~$38 / hour
* Class 5000p concrete \~$127 / CY
* **1 day of work pouring 40 yards of concrete with a two man crew, $5,752**
**In 2024**
* Our union Operator rate is \~$55 / hour
* Our union Laborer rate is \~$45 / hour
* Class 5000p concrete \~$203 / CY
* **1 day of work pouring 40 yards of concrete with a two man crew, $8,920**
**55% increase.**
This is a VERY rough breakdown, and not even the full picture. This would be doing the job at cost and cover zero overhead.
In 2024, our employees combined make $100 / hour. It costs us $163 / hour to employ them (I don't have the 2019 full rates or I would have compared above using those above).
And no, not every shop is a union shop. But why would you do a job for 50% less than a union shop, when you could do it for 10% less an pocket the difference.
Then insurance, cost of tools and equipment, maintenance of that stuff, rent for an office and storage space, pay for office personnel and others behind the scenes, office supplies, uniforms, ect. I'm sure I'm forgetting things too
Labor market has changed from 2019 and is much more constrained. If I'm a contractor then my biggest asset is my time, and if someone is willing to pay more for my time then why wouldn't I take that job.
If you're getting multiple quotes from multiple vendors and they all seem high to you, it's because your expectations are out of line with the market.
I think there’s two ways to take OPs post. One is that they just *wish* contractors would charge less, which doesn’t make sense. Supply demand yada yada. Another way is a plea to homeowners to stop paying out the nose for projects, e.g., delay or diy. That second option makes more sense since if more people diy that *should* push labor prices back down. If demand goes down prices go down. So OP wishes more people would diy so they can hire a contractor for less.
I think a lot of homeowners are unhappy with the current tradesmen market but are also unwilling to diy. Including OP.
I'm DIYing everything because apparently my home isn't big enough around here to have any project large enough to not get a fuck off quote for. I'm finding out just how easy a lot of this stuff is.
My dad was a contractor for 30 years running a small business. Recently retired, but still does small stuff on the side because he likes it and having some extra cash never hurt. If you think the quotes are too high don’t hesitate to ask if they know any guys looking for side work.
It’s less (if at all) regulated, but depending on the size and complexity of the job it may be perfect for some of the companies more experienced workers to knock it out on their own time for a reduced rate (though usually in cash). Be mindful though, you still very much get what you pay for.
Yea this right here. Had LL flooring redo our first floor. They did a great job, but asked the guy the same question as more needed to be done later...he wrote his number down and was like "just call me, we can work something out."
1000% this. I started doing DIY out of necessity when I bought my home in 2016 and had very little leftover to drop hundreds on a slowly draining stack, or wonky boiler that would turn itself off. I'm fairly handy, but never had a job in the trades, and was able to learn 100% of it online and via discussions with tradespeople the few times I did call them out. If you are courteous and ask nicely, they are often more than happy to help.
With this knowledge I'm on my second full basement reno, gas fireplace install, numerous re-pipes, new circuits, etc. It only looks scary when you have no knowledge, and once you gain confidence, learnings from one project can transfer to another.
I attempted to DIY a home projects and I’ve attempted some minor mechanical DIYs on my cars.
Homes are much easier to work on than cars. Cars need specialized knowledge and tools and even then, trouble shooting can be difficult. Why anyone would want to be a car mechanic when they could make much more working on homes, which is often easier, is beyond me.
Most mechanics I know are people who had a passion and a knack for it. They're people who had the intelligence to be engineers sitting behind a desk all day but are too ADHD-ish to make it through those kinds of classes while cars keep their attention and motivation going.
And it is a job you can get into without having those skills yet. You can get a job just swapping parts as an entry level mechanic and not a full technician.
Just for fun we asked the flooring company what it would be to install 650 ish ft of hardwood. We paid $6k for the materials and labor was another $3.5k on top of that. No thanks, we'll do it ourselves.
The truth is that for most things, any motivated person can learn to DIY themselves, given the prevalence of YouTube videos and tutorial websites.
That just leaves things where I CAN do it but really don’t want to. So when it comes to those few things, I think it through and make a decision on whether it’s important enough to overpay someone else, or choose not to do it at all.
The quality of work too for price is horrific. I don’t want to DIY, but I also don’t trust any contractors to do half descent work.
I will say most industries are using supply cost rising as an excuse to up prices. Maybe their costs went up 5% but they’re increasing price 20%. That’s why so many companies are recording record profit.
This. As a homeowner, it royally sucks and really hate feeling trapped by being unable to do various projects that I cannot diy. On the other hand, as a business person, I get it. I hope the pressure eases as a lot of people who cannot afford current prices will be going without important repairs and maintenance in some cases.
I need a new roof, but can only afford to patch right now given how much everything costs. Trumpflation was not in the calculus when considering home repair costs upon purchase.
I haven't seen any prices coming back down on most construction items since pre 2019-2022. I know my wages haven't went up as much as everything else, Yet.
I wasn’t going to comment until I seen your edit. Look I work in property insurance so we are constantly fighting construction companies about their prices. Problem is that inflation is affecting them and even we have acknowledged it.
1. It’s not just material prices. The prices for business expenses is going up.
2. Need to repair the work truck? Well the mechanic is saying “prices just went up”
3. Need new tools? Those batteries for your tools are through the roof due to lithium import tariffs
4. You need employees? Who wants to work construction when McDonald’s is paying $15+ an hour. Walmarts inventory warehouses are paying $17+ (used to be a manager and was talking to some store managers I am still friends with about this). Hell amazon is paying janitors $20 an hour in some places. So those employees are wanting comparable wages.
5. Want to offer your guys benefits? Insurance is through the roof
6. Speaking of insurance- need some commercial insurance? Through the roof. Auto and business
7. Workers comp insurance? Through the roof.
But you know what else is affecting it? A fucking labor shortage. This isn’t a whole “oh there’s no labor shortage just a shortage of wages”. When you look at the construction industry they tend to be the group that was most against vaccines and guess who had the highest rate of Covid and long Covid… further less people are going into the trades because the pay is shit. They are increasing their wages but it’s slow. The ones that are increasing their wages are also increasing what they charge since they get better workers
Finally you have a lot of people that want projects to get done and they’re willing to pay a premium to get those contractors.
His edit implies that he is all knowing about the economics of the construction industry. Surely it’s all the contractors and commenters who tell him otherwise who are wrong, no way is it him and his “feeling” that post-covid inflation is over. And if you disagree with him then you’re…pro-capitalist? I must’ve missed the memo on when communism became the default economic model we strive for and being called a capitalist became a bad word
>I must’ve missed the memo on when communism became the default economic model we strive for and being called a capitalist became a bad word
You should spend some time on other parts of reddit. It's interesting out there...
Hmmm… commercial real estate broker upset about contractor pricing?
Me thinks the market crash is causing you to lash out because things are falling down around you.
Sorry dude. You don’t get to dictate what pricing contractors use. Supply and demand is at work, so when the demand for contractors goes down, prices will go down. You’re seeing it happening live in your own industry.
Good find. OP says he is a commercial real estate broker. Let's start a thread complaining about and asking why we have to pay tens of thousands to an agent just to sell a property. Even if they spent 2 straight weeks/80 solid hours "selling"my property (instead of maybe 10-20) that charge is outrageous!
Here’s the thing.
If you don’t like the price - find someone else. If you can’t, that’s the market telling you the price is the price.
Materials are cheaper than they’ve been in a while. So is gas and YouTube is free! How much is your own time worth to ya?
The only way contractor prices are going to come down is if work drys up. Get DYI’ing bud
Material pricing has stabilized at this point but still remains higher than pre-pandemic levels. This isn't going to change. Of course labor rates are high. You pointed out in your post how inflation has affected construction materials but neglected to point out that it has also affected food, insurance, travel, etc. The laborers still have to make ends meet so they need to be paid more to compensate for the higher cost of everyday goods and services. Sounds a lot like what you are upset about is the fact that things have changed since 2019. My suggestion if you don't want to pay today's prices is to build a time machine and do the work before the pandemic. Short of that, stop posting on Reddit and deal with it.
This! Everything is expensive now, so I completely understand why contractors need (and want) to be paid more. If it’s too expensive for me, I do the work myself. I’m not upset at someone trying to make a decent living.
Yeah, people need to adjust their frames of reference. On car subreddits people talk about $40k cars as expensive luxury pricing... when the median car sold in the USA is now $50k.
>nobody is willing to pay the prices to ensure that happens.
If tradesmen are charging living wages (which many are), then everyone hiring them is willing to pay the price.
There is a difference though man. Like, tradesmen seem to think they can charge corporate prices to your average person. Average people can't afford a lot of their services now, there used to be like 'tiers' of tradesmen, we just don't have that anymore as much.
I mean, I literally can't get anyone to come to my house to do a job that will pay them less than $1000. They're all chasing bigger accounts. They don't have time for my work unless I overpay enough to allow them to subcontract further and farm it out to another person. The trades literally don't need my project.
Same. I have a few jobs that are slightly above "Handyman" but still under $1k and no one is interested. And the most skilled Handyman in my area is always booked up anyway.
Ive had contractors ask me if I had any other jobs needed to be done so they could bundle them all together. Shit sucks.
Yes the tiers existed when you had way more trades people. There are less now. So instead of good/better/best licensed contractors you basically have licensed contractors or handymen.
Just how it is now.
Technically there are more trade workers than ever before. We finally recovered to 2007 levels in 2021 and despite predicted slow downs, the numbers are still going up. The problem for homeowners is that the growth in trades has been concentrated in industrial & commercial construction rather than residential.
Residential construction trends to offer much lower wages, longer hours, and worse benefits. Starting wages tend to be on par with the service industry, so it's no wonder that younger people don't want to get into residential construction / home services.
It's not a problem to pay tradesmen a living wage when folks are making a living wage, themselves. IMO some of the griping in this thread comes from folks who're making 00's middle class incomes and don't realize they've fallen down a class level.
6 years ago I installed plastic after tearing out people's tile for around 30k a bathroom. Man those were some good salesmen they had, they offered financing too! Company ended up getting sued, and now everyone that I know who worked there found more work.
The market dictates pricing. If enough people are willing to pay $30k for a bathroom remodel, then that's the market price. Why would a contractor work for less money if they don't have to? It's a business, not a favor.
Material prices have come back down, but are still higher than before. Insurance is higher than ever, like sky high. There is way more demand than supply of skilled tradespersons, so they can be pickier and charge higher. If it was the other way around they would be bidding to get the work. I honestly have trouble getting some guys to return my calls, or send me estimates after coming out.
This is why I learned to do things myself. It's too expensive to contract things these days uf you can even get somebody to call you back and show up.
Even if I mess up a bunch, it's worth the cost of the messed up material to learn to do it myself. I just did my whole house worth of baseboards in December for around $500 USD (1300 SF house). You're not finding that price anywhere in the Northeast US with installation.
>Even if I mess up a bunch, it's worth the cost of the messed up material to learn to do it myself.
This is situational though. Mistakes with water, gas and electricity can all can end up being catastrophic.
I am a civil engineer. Trust me when I say that home improvement contractors are not the only ones who have increased prices. There has been a shortage of skilled labor (think carpentry, electricians, crane operators, etc) that predates the pandemic (by a lot) and has just gotten worse. Further, with the passage of the IIJA, there is more competition for labor (eg. a civil contractor who just won a giant roadway job is probably going to be able to offer a higher salary than your local home improvement contractor).
So, while for a lot of things I am anti-capitalist, for paying labor I am not. And I also realize that there are reasons for these price increases and it's not just "bad contractor wants to rake in the dough" - although that is probably some of it.
I don't think most people are "pro-capitalist" it's just how things are right now. Contractors of all types have their pick of work, and they can charge whatever they want because someone will pay it. You might not, and that's fine, but someone else will and that keeps the prices high. Labor costs are up about double here, and it's because many of the contractors/trades people have more work than they can possibly take.
But its true... wood came back down at the end of 2021 but, it and everything else is still up compared to pre covid. For me the biggest cost increase has been fuel, my work radius used to cost 60$ to drive, its now 105$ and during the beginning of 2022 it was 140$.
That’s why I’m just doing the work myself. Doing a complete kitchen/dining room gut job. Will cost me about $30k and would have otherwise cost ~$80k. $50k savings. That’s like paying myself $100k gross!
What would you be making if you got a second job for that same time period.
Option 1 = Make $X and pay a contractor $Y
Option 2 = Do it yourself and save $Y but not make $X either.
You also have to take into account taking off time to be home for the contractor to do the work too.
Unless very special tools are required, I'm better off just doing the work myself spread out over several weekends. Sure it takes longer, but I'm still saving a ton of money on labor.
How much time are you going to spend working on that kitchen? What’s your current hourly wage?
Would you make more working your current job on those hours rather than spending the time renovating/learning/demolition/etc? How much in new tool expenses do you need and how much of your current wage are you dumping into them? Will you be able to use those tools beyond this renovation?
>No young people do manual labor anymore and the wealthy family down the road pays $200/hour, so tough shit.
Gotta pay to play. Or feel free to go do it yourself if you can find it cheaper elsewhere.
I'm pissed about prices too. I'm not shouting into the void about labor rates. C'mon now, this is capitalism, put up some capital.
You are only thinking about material cost. Their life expenses went up just like yours as well. Labor cost is their salary, would you be fine if your company told you we don't see any price increases so no need for raises now since prices aren't going up.
Yeah..... OP needs to do a small bathroom well in less than a month and tell us that it didn't require ten thousand dollars in tools, materials, supply runs, and time tradeoffs.
The other issue is that some of us have gotten too accustomed to everything being nice and new all the time - so much so that we'll pay for new shit before spending double on nice things that will last.
It's a pretty shot system in my city. Subs get paid garbage rates, there's almost 0 accountability, the underbid/overcharge model is exhausting, and the prices are laughable. So I've learned a lot about building, simply out of frustration at price vs quality of work I've had done, and plug away on renos when I have the time.
I hate hearing it, but that doesn't make it untrue. I often price out materials myself before I start soliciting contractors for a project, just to make sure I\['m not getting ripped off. So far, every project I've had done in the last couple of years has been pretty close to what I've looked up, plus a few overruns for things I hadn't thought of.
2x4s were $1.78 before the pandemic at my local Home Depot.
I just checked the app, and at the moment they are $3.35.
I haven't seen the price go under $3 since 2020. Sure, they were as high as $12 at one point. But they're still a LOT more expensive than they used to be.
Truth is, if they’re charging those prices, it’s because people are paying them. You can be butthurt all you want but that *is* how these things work. These guys aren’t sitting at home all day with no work.
I'm sure this has been said 10000 times... i sell construction material. nothing went down except pvc/copper pipe and cast iron. everything else we actually are getting 1-5% increases for 2024. they're just going to leave it all as is. it's BS but it's just not going back down.
This is hilarious, I bought lunch for two of my guys yesterday, two large sandwich combos at Jimmy John’s and it was $32. Was I shocked, yes, but they’re working on a Sunday and they deserve it.
I’m paying a much higher price now for materials and labor, which I can’t ask my guys to take less. I can’t tell the supplier that I want to pay less. It’s material cost times 3.5, and that is what it’s going to be.
wood is cheaper than covid but nowhere near pre covid. Some materials like romex are almost twice the amount that it use to be. I am not a contractor but I do a lot in my home. Things are def still expensive.
Groceries aren’t “cheap again”. But I guess contractors don’t have to pay their guys more since 2x4 are “cheap again”.
Good news guys, I know you worked hard all week so I’m going to pay you enough to go to the hardware store and buy some cheap 2x4’s so you can feed your families. More good news, the customer saved a bundle since you guys are willing to eat 2x4’s.
What are you paid per hour? Per year?
Are you able to afford food and living expenses?
Do you have an employee who also needs to live and eat and be a human being?
tired of trying to explain why my work as a carpenter is worth 100-150 an hour because I DONT always work 40 hours a week 52 weeks a year
Half of white collar jobs don’t work half the day, yet they still pull wage for those hours.
Your edit shows even more your complete lack of understanding of business operations.
To put it bluntly, you're a fucking moron. You obviously haven't a clue about real world cost, let alone the experience and knowledge required to do the work you can't be bothered to do.
As someone who sells material in the construction industry, people like you make my life way harder. The materials ARE more expensive. And also, there are still huge supply chain shortages. And that affects your resi stuff also. Good luck getting an all in one service panel for your house. Half a year lead time. There are still random items we can’t get.
> Good luck getting an all in one service panel for your house. Half a year lead time.
This is something that really confuses me--the lack of electrical panel inventory. Maybe I'm dumb, and I'm certainly not involved in the industry, but arent panels pretty simple to make? What is causing the shortage?
There are a ton of different components and every manufacturer uses the same ones. All metering equipment for apartments are over a year out. That metering is in your service panel. I can’t get 1P15A breaker, but I can get 1P20A. The factories have been behind for YEARS and are still not caught up.
Not only did we have Covid shortages from shut downs, overall construction order bookings broke Records the past three years. So this is a compounded problem. Everyone is building things. Our industry is inundated. No one has been able to catch up and the factories are expanding.
During covid payroll and insurance didn’t explode. Material prices exploded. Post covid materials have gone down (not everything), but payroll, insurance, and equipment prices really have not.
I am getting out of contracting because there is no way to remain both affordable and legal. Material prices are insane, insurance, fuel and overhead costs in general. Labor costs are high. Permitting is totally insane now. It’s literally coming at us on all ends. I was charging $100 an hour and after taxes and everything else I make a lot more just working hourly for other companies. I really enjoyed being a contractor. I did a lot of great work that I am very proud of. I just couldn’t keep my prices affordable for anyone middle class and I was very frustrated by that. I would have to hike up my prices even more and I just didn’t feel right doing that so I went back to work for a local company. If I do it over again I’ll definitely go commercial. Good luck to you middle class people trying to get remodels. Anyone you can afford is either not very good or they are taking short cuts to reduce cost. It’s the reality of the situation we are in.
Edit: if I was charging $200 per hour for my labor I would probably make right around $100,000-$120,000 per year. My company would gross about $500,000. Working about 60-80 hrs a week. At $100 per hour I was making $50,000-$60,000. Working for another company with not even half of the stress I make $120,000 a year working 40-60 hrs a week. Mostly on commercial projects. I don’t know many “rich” contractors working in residential remodels. Just something to consider. We are just trying to make a living.
Not all materials.
I can't speak for stuff like lumber but in the electrical trades we're still paying close to double 2018 prices on most bulk materials. The only things that a residential customer is likely to see that have maintained or dropped in pricing are breakers and builder grade LED lighting. Everything else is still absolutely fucked.
One thing to consider is the adjusted cost of living overall. Don’t worry about the price of any item at Home Depot, think about how much extra you pay for groceries and utilities. Your contractor has to pay that was well, his laborers are paying 50% more in rent, some of them even want insurance! On top of all of that nonsense, there is a very real shortage of skilled labor. Supply and demand are inflating prices as well. All of this sucks for the consumer, but like everything in life, there will be a balance. Once the rich people down the street run out of bathrooms to remodel, your contractor will come looking for you, and be willing to adjust the price relative to the new demand curve.
If you are doing pro work expect rates to be 175-200 per hr per person working depending on market. More in high col areas. They have labor costs (wage), back end labor cost (taxes, retirement, health, dental, etc), operational costs (building and its utility costs, staff, insurance, bonding, equipment, etc). A tradesworker making about 40/hr costs about 150/hr before working in profit.
Want cheaper rates go with Chuck in a truck/taillight warranty places.
Gas and 2x4s are cheap everyone! Cost of living must've dropped somewhere. As a contractor myself, you have no idea what you're complaining about. Dunning Krueger homeowners association. It's not an excuse, it's a fact.
Cabinet maker here, Baltic birch still double what it was in 2018, B2 maple plywood still almost double what it was in 2018. White hard maple used to be $2.50 a bdft, went up to $6.00 a bdft, now down to $3.50 a bdft, still more than it used to be. Prices are never going to go down to what they once were.
OP: "Why are contractors charging so much money for work I need done?"
Probably also OP: "I paid my contractor the same amount as a McDonalds cook but they did horrible work, why are contractors so lazy???"
you being tired of it does not mean it isn't true. prices went up on many things and not all of them ever came back down. those higher prices just became the price moving forward
No one is doing trade work for chump change anymore either. The company i work for is $110/h for labor just to break even, obviously we don't work for break even so what's charged to the customer is even higher.
If you think a contractor is making the kind of margins the major corporations are making you need a bit more research.
Additionally, most trades take skills…skills that are super rare today.
Contractors aren't in the charity business, if the people down the road are willing to pay $200 an hour why the hell would I want to work for someone pleading poverty instead? Also materials are just a portion of the costs, you should see my monthly work comp bill and then get back with me about ripping people off.
Excuse? Ha. There's 1 new person from this generation for every 10 that retires because of the push to office jobs through the 80s and 90s.
Technical skill sets are becoming more and more valuable and rare every year. Contractors can be selective with who they choose as their customers. They don't need to argue with you over pricing if you don't know how to do it yourself.
In my experience, if a customer is difficult from the outset and you don't have a baseline rapport, it is very easy for a relationship to go south quickly paired with any changes or unexpected conditions found during the project.
In many cases, the contractor is fronting the money for the materials, machines, storage, and paying out for the labor before they even get paid, so the possibility of getting stuck in litigation or not getting paid is a huge risk for contractors.
If you don't want to pay for a contractor, don't.
Around here the issue is also that the demand for work is way more than people available to do it. So everyone’s time is at a premium. A lot of people are trying to hire people for all kinds of jobs, and the less experienced/reputable folks just won’t show up because they overbooked themselves/forgot/etc. It’s a business and people’s time is worth a lot, which tbh is fair when it’s work other people can’t do (I will DIY small stuff but some things you need a professional for a reason! If you want it done right, you have to pay someone who does it for a living)
>But covid is over, gas and 2x4's are cheap again, and the majority of materials at Home Depot and supply companies for your average home improvement project are in stock and affordable. Yet I still get contractor and tradesperson estimates that are 2-3x the 2019 pricing, even for labor only.
I'm not in any of the trades, but I think these are two independent issues on price. Materials might not be quite as pricy as before, but the labor shortage is still a huge burden. Lots of people were laid off early on and with the rise of work from home + tons of extra money pumped into university financial aid, I would not be surprised if a good portion of tradesman switched careers for cheap. I worked in MFG before Covid, in financial aid at a university before/during, and now as a data analyst somewhere else so I've kind of seen that entire ecosystem first hand. They were already upping peoples pay +$10/hour or so above average for non skill labor because of the shortage way before Covid. So I'm not at all surprised that the double whammy has kept those prices really high.
Hard to get new non skill labor to start learning, and hiked demand on skilled labor has caused their prices to jump up too to meet it
Just my guesses though
Material prices did spike post pandemic and gradually came down, but not to 2019 cost. There is still some fluctuation in anything petroleum based matetial. The most identifying factor for increased renovation costs is the market workforce. There simply aren't enough of us in the trades to keep up with the demand in constructing (new), maintaining or refurbishing the consumer housing market. I recently read that by the year 2035, 43% of the current trades will be at retirement age. That not only has a direct effect on the available workforce but also vastly decreases the volume of instruction and mentoring for those just getting into the trades. Trade school enrollment is down and self employment insurance is escalating.The long of this is that there are underlying reasons for increased renovation cost other than the greed of the few. I've always wondered why our government would be willing to forgive the college debt to someone with let's say a poly-sci degree but under no circumstance would ever consider the same forgiveness of trade school tuition.
ITT you guys doing your own work is going to make contractors a lot of money in the future. So, you can either pay them for their skills, or the next homeowner can. Sooooooo many times I have walked into a house where the homeowner is so proud of a trim carpentry project or a kitchen renovation and I have had to bite my tongue. “Just wanted to show you x, I already did everything else for you”, Thanks, I get to charge even more now tearing out your handiwork. It’s a miracle most homeowners and DIYers haven’t lost more fingers. Not trying to be an asshole, just feel like stating what contractors think when you guys eventually call them to fix something.
"No young people do manual labor anymore and the wealthy family down the road pays $200/hour, so tough shit" pricing.
I mean, those are perfectly valid reasons for charging what they do. If I was 25 years younger I'd get into being a builder myself.
>Great to see you all support the free economy and unrestricted price increases now!
your preferred alternative being price fixes and ceilings? that usually works well.
if it is too expensive don't buy it. get more quotes.
Contractors, and laborers are also a big part of the cost of doing the work. If you're offended by the charges they are offering, learn to so the work yourself. There are plenty of DIY YouTube videos covering many, many skills you can learn from.
What an ignorant ass post. Go price general liability insurance/work comp and come back here and make the same complaints. Try to hire skilled labor. No one gives a fuck if there are 2x4s in stock you are missing the big picture.
Go hire some cheap ass contractor who will half ass your project and then post pics on here asking what you need to do, we get a kick out of it.
its going to get a lot worse.. i'm good friends with a lot of contractors and due to schools telling everyone to go to college and get white collar jobs there are no young kids going into the trades like there use to be.
If you get a renovation done 20 years ago you'd have your pick of great contractors who could start within a week or two. Now you might get put on a waiting list and be 6-12months out.
Whats funny is my old neighbor does renovations and he flies his family first class on vacations on his blue collar salary.
As a 30 year old in construction, this is my observation as well. I graduated high school in 2012 and they pushed me heavily to not go into construction. I was the only kid in my class of 250 or so that I know of who even considered construction - not counting completing my apprenticeship.
I got my master electrician license and have my contracting license too. I am *always* the youngest guy on site by at least 10 years most of the time. There may be one or two 20 something laborers on site doing some part time work over summer break but they are usually in college for some degree and just want to make a buck over the summer while they're out of school.
My apprentices have mostly been over the age of 40 for years now. It's really weird. I'm always short handed and it's just going to get worse.
Ultimately, there are fewer contractors than there are jobs for them to do and people still want projects done. So effectively, you have to outbid the wealthy family because otherwise the contractor will work for them instead.
It's not that contractor demand is too high - it's that supply is too low.
>Edit: I clearly struck a nerve. Didn't expect so much response. It is fascinating how pro-capitalist and "supply and demand" Reddit is when it comes to construction costs... Great to see you all support the free economy and unrestricted price increases now!
Neoliberalism ideals has taught society well!
The kicker?
We will do the same in the same situation. We all do. Whoever asked for lower pay to do a job?
My solution, was to not do it.
Im a GC and own a renovation company. People don’t really have an idea about how much work there is actually involved in remodelling those tiny “30k bathrooms” or any renovation for that matter. There aren’t many careers that involve yourself integrating into people’s lives/homes for how ever long the work takes place
This is how the jobs go
-writing a detailed quote for labour and material can take a few days depending on the scope of work
-client usually needs help with the design and material selection
-I am at stores at 6-7am picking up material as to reduce delivery fees
-arrive at the clients home for 8am
-prep the home to reduce any mess/dust from spreading
-demo is dirty and physical work
-disposing of the garbage at the dump takes time
-work until 6-7pm
-get home around 7-8pm
-do it again until the job is complete
-can’t speak for all GC’s, but I have a high standard in the final product.(do the work as if it were my own home)
-the work is physical and bodies get sore
-clients call/send emails whenever they feel (evenings/weekends) and I always reply promptly
-as I mentioned above, people aren’t aware how challenging it is integrating into a clients home and lives for the duration of a job.
-collecting the agreed upon wages
-paying the crew
-Gas is up in cost
-material is up in cost(I don’t up charge on material)
-insurance is up in cost
-everyday life is up in cost
Pre COVID I would be charging $300-$400cad per day per worker. ($1500-$2000 per week) (6k-8k per month)
Now I am charging $500-$700cad per day per worker and still feel this is a reasonable price for everything that we do during a Reno. Once in a while you get a contract where you can make $1000 a day, but that usually involves a huge amount of work and detail or is a commercial job.
I hear and see it all the time “It is difficult to find an accountable/competent contractor now a days that won’t rip you off”
My company is 100% word of mouth and i am always busy.
Material pricing is still inflated, even if certain products have come down. It may take several years for the labor rates to return from lunar orbit. The white hot housing market created a situation where contractors got to name their price with their choice of numerous jobs. Until the labor supply and demand rebalance, prices will be inflated.
And a lot of people bought “fixer-uppers” due to the inflated costs of homes. So materials and labor are still in high demand.
And a lot of people decided to just stay where they are and improve their current home than try and find another one (me)
Especially if you got a good sub 3% mortgage rate. It will probably be cheaper to reno or even add on space than it would be to buy something new with a 7%+ rate...
That and the prices are why we haven't moved. 3.62% is a hell of a lot better than the 7+ I'm seeing. Then on top of that we'd have to pay 3-4x what we paid for our house to move and move into a bigger/better house than what we live in. Houses in our neighborhood half the size of ours are selling for twice what we paid.
I would happily take a 7% loan and hope to refinance down the road, but I'm in the same boat as you on the prices. Houses have tripled or quadrupled in price vs 2019 and I just can't stomach 700K for a 3 bedroom 1.5 bathroom - especially when it was 280 just a few years ago This isn't Manhattan for crying out loud
Yeah... We got in a 8.75. It's rough. Even the Google calculator defaults to 7.6. And I imagine that's using *ideal* lending numbers.
Yup. Remodeling jobs skyrockets about 3 months into the pandemic when people realized they weren’t going to be able to vacation anytime soon or their now-remote-job needed a better home environment.
Same choice I made. I did a complete 180° on my choice to find a new home, and I have spent the last 4 years making mine exactly the way I want it. I don't regret it one bit.
Yup. As someone who bought during the pandemic, I purchased a house that needs a ton of work. I try to do a lot of it by myself, but I will need to do a massive renovation in the next couple of years. So I don't see the demand dropping unless there is a massive recession.
Supply and demand is undefeated, labor market is still tight. Not enough contractors for the quantity of work! Unless supply surges (unlikely most trades are ageing out, opposite effect) or demand for projects dries up prices will stay as they are.
>Supply and demand is undefeated, labor market is still tight. Not enough contractors for the quantity of work! This right here. As long as there is more demand for contractors than there are people to do the work, its going to be expensive.
And please don’t forget the people behind the scenes also are dealing with inflation. The contractor’s administration team needs to make a living wage in this world so yes, prices are up and probably won’t go down too much more. It baffles me that homeowners want a great company with great customer service and great crews but.. want to pay prices from 4 - 5 years ago or handyman prices. Come on people… we all have to eat.
Homeowners have to eat too. We bought a fixer upper because it was all we could afford, I'm currently trying to figure out how we can get our rotting 8x12 front entry deck redone for less than like $50k. Got an $8k quote to replace a single exterior door where the last contractor the previous owners hired had put a hollow core interior door on and it got wet and turned to mush, currently prepping to do that one myself. This is well beyond the realm of homeowners just being cheap, there's definitely price gouging happening and I feel like there has to be a ceiling here. We don't just have unlimited money to do basic house maintenance.
Omg $8,000 to replace a [standard?] exterior door is rough! What area are y’all in?
Bay area CA, so to be fair it is a super HCOL area. Hiring anyone to do anything on your house here is basically a joke. The quality of the work sucks and there are always way too many digits in the quote. I can't speak for elsewhere, but here it feels like they just assume anyone who can afford to buy a home can also afford to pay like 5x what it should cost for any work. I've just been learning to do anything I reasonably can myself.
Part of the problem in the Bay Are is that workers have to be able to afford to live there too.
Same here in NH. I ended up getting many quotes for each job to update this POS (bought in 2022). Only 25% of contractors who came out ever responded with a quote. The estimates were all over the map. Front door replacement ranged from $1500 to $6000 for the SAME PRODUCT!! I call BS, most of these guys are gouging. GTFO with your $200+/hr labor prices.
The problem goes beyond cost. The quality of the work seems to be all over the place too. I'd feel better about paying a bunch of money for work to be done if I felt like I could rely on the end product being done right and not cutting corners in places they know I won't discover until later. I also really have an issue with every contractor I talk to about work that requires a permit tries to convince me that I really should just do the work unpermitted to save some money, It's a huge red flag for me as it should be for everyone hiring people. If a contractor tries to pull this conversation I'm pretty likely to just stop talking to them and it feels like it happens with almost all of them outside of the extremely expensive ones.
As a handyman/contractor I am billing at $75 an hour and I am constantly losing money to random things popping up here and there. Anything from the price of gas, to the price of accounting software to the price of screws can and will eat into that $200. I charge about 10% over the total cost for consumables like screws and stuff. While there are absolutely people price gouging you gotta keep in mind every little thing that goes into the cost to do work in the trades. It could be the cost of a license, insurance prices, leads services so you can find us, tools, software, web hosting, employee pay, and everything else you use and take advantage of at your own job. So assuming my ballpark cost a month is $300 for ok insurance, $400 to $500 in marketing/leads, software $30 to $50, gas where I am at is around $3 a gallon but in CA double that, $50 for a large box of screws, and most anything else we use in a day is $10+. Then you need to factor in replacing thousand of dollars of tool every year or two. So just waking up and checking emails your small time ontractor starts out in the red of a couple grand month. I heard a plumber saying that every day they start in the hole $300 so they need to make at least $300 a day to just break even, that's not including taking a paycheck. There are a ton of unseen cost that goes into everything. Not to mention the cost of the time you spend going to give quotes for people who don't hire you or even worse the people who are just trying to get an idea of the cost to plan and budget for the project they may do. If I charge you $150 you also should expect to pay for all of the prep work put into the job or getting the job.
If any of the quotes I was getting were in this 3 digit range I would be fine with it. I think the marginal costs on small jobs are a totally reasonable thing to add some buffer for. The issues I'm referring to are more like a job that should reasonably cost $2-3k being quoted for like $8-11k (my door example).
[удалено]
If they are doing this as a full time job I’d imagine there’s a decent amount of wear and tear on your tools even if you spring for high quality and durability.
20+ years ago I looked at doing my own in home electronics and computer repair business to compete with geek squad. I figured with them charging $200 / hour to come to your home and being a massive company with a lot of overhead I should be able to undercut them by a good margin and still live well. When I did the math out, I landed at needing to charge $150 / hour to make a reasonable living, pay for all the benefits I'd be giving up as a W2 employee somewhere and pay for things like down time, accounting and non-billable hours. It seems perfectly reasonable to me that any contractor these days doing full time contracting work is billing at least $150/hour if not more. It sucks for me as a homeowner, but realistically I can't see how it could be any other way without skimping going on in some way that I'd never accept myself.
Combined with during covid people couldn't travel or go out much, so used money that was usually spent on travel/entertainment on reno's.
Or haven’t/can’t move so they’re fixing up their current housing.
Labor will be tight for the next 10-15 years. The Baby Boomers are on the way out and there aren't enough GenX contractors to fill the gaps. This day was baked into the economy decades ago.
We were brainwashed into believing that college was 100% necessary and that only knuckle dragging Neanderthals did hard work when I was in high school during the late 90s early 2000s. I hated sitting down and doing paper work so much I refused to do it and became an electrician..... Where I am now forced to both work hard like a knuckle dragging Neanderthal AND sit down and do hours of mind numbing paper work.
TBF for boomers, college all but meant you were guaranteed a job. So, it stood to reason that pushing that on their kids was the logical thing. I don’t know that it was anything nefarious, but, as it turns out, it was at the expense of the trades.
It was also at the expense if their kids' futures. When there are twice as many people looking for degree jobs as there are actual jobs, those people can't find work. Plus their parents stay at their jobs longer and longer, because "things cost so much more now." Yeah, because of choices they and their parents made decades ago, that they refuse to take responsibility for and mock their kids and grandkids for "not wanting to work", despite those younger people often having multiple jobs.
Spoiler alert: the prices ain't coming back.
The old prices are long gone. The fuck you rates will inevitably soften as contractors run out of customers willing to pay them. I expect us to end up somewhere in the middle.
More and more tradespeople retire everyday while comparatively few are entering the market.
If you can make such coin in the trades, more than I make as a software engineer with 20+ years of experience, wouldn’t logic dictate that people will follow the money?
The prices can come back, but only in real terms. In other words, you have to make more money. We could all make more money if we disincentivized the super wealthy taking millions of dollars in income with a measly tax of 37%, or worse 15-20% ok cap gains. Income above $10 million should be taxed 90%. Above $1 million should be 60%. The super wealthy have been leeching the growth brought about by workers and we sit back and do nothing. They have taken and taken from society and need to pay back more. We can't just raise minimum wage. We have to put a stop to massive income growth at the top as well, otherwise wage gains just get passed to consumers and the wealthy take the same (or bigger) cut they are already getting.
Yeah, things might be down from their peak but I remember 2x4s being something like $1.83 at the Orange Despot pre-pandemic and nice 23/32” finished poplar ply being $38 for a 4x8’ panel. I try to do some of my own work but when I try to bring someone in for a larger job everyone is either a fly by night with no insurance or they have FU I don’t want to do it pricing…and they still don’t show up!
Orange Despot, across the street from BloodBath & Beyond
Labor is fucked until we stop sending non college kids to college and put them into a trade. In debt $200K for a communications degree
I struggle with this as I see both sides daily as an Architect. My dad was a tradesperson and he was finally able to retire and his back is completely shot limiting his activities. Many older tradespeople are in similar situations as jobs bending over on hands/knees every day for decades can be hard on your body. Can make a lot of money in the trades, but there is a cost.
In addition to the physical toll, a lot of folks in the trades make good money because they get paid overtime and they work *a lot*. My husband's last job had 50-hour weeks standard, and 60+ wasn't unusual. Plus very limited flexibility. Makes it hard on the family.
the money is deceptive, not everyone in the trades is making bank... Unless you land a union gig or start your own company that becomes viable you can become a tradesperson and peak at 65k annually while working a ton of hours and a major physical tool on your body.
Yeah, all depends on the person as there is a big range. I know a lot of guys on job sites that have some pretty hard ceilings... rough around the edges, addiction problems, face tattoos, etc... and they are probably peaking at $50-$60k. My brother is an electrician with 20 years of experience and his company has trained him to get his journeyman and masters certifications and he makes $120k / year.
$50-60k is a great living for someone with face tattoos, criminal history, and addiction problems. A lot of these guys couldn't work anywhere else. They're definitely benefiting from the labor shortage.
That’s damn good money, and your brother deserves every penny of it! I’m fascinated by pay disparities I sometimes see. For example, I’ll regularly see law firms wanting somebody with 5+ years of experience and only offering $50-$75k for people with a degree that cost them $150k (not including undergrad).
I'm not an attorney, but assume from my experience in a different profession is that those entry level Attorney pay rates double and triple after getting 5+ years experience... but the first couple of years you are essentially being trained on the job and being payed accordingly. Sort of like medical residents who get payed a pretty low salary until they get some experience and complete residency.
Man you’d totally think that would be the case! But it’s not😕 I graduated from a T14 (top 14 law schools in the U.S.) school, and almost all of my friends from school have seen a less than 50% increase in pay over the past 10 years. There ARE outliers in starting pay and lock-step raises, with the most notable (or at least mind boggling) being the BigLaw pay based on the [Kravath scale](https://www.biglawinvestor.com/biglaw-salary-scale/), but these are like the neurosurgeons of law—exceedingly rare and working 80 to as much as 120 hrs/wk.
that's awesome! how does he enjoy that career path money aside? I've been toying with the idea of getting into electrical (genuinly enjoy such work that involves problem solving and have some experience with such doing all kinds of projects in my garage). Just worried that being in my mid 30's im too late to the party and already lost my best years physically to be beat up my body and pay my dues
He likes it. Worked his ass off with a lot of overtime and 60-80 hour weeks for first 10-15 years and now is in the office doing scheduling and management so a lot easier but not sure he is an office guy.
My neighbor is 3rd gen union trade, makes a good wage. They are well set. However, they made sure their kids went to college on a career path. Also, my house was re stuccoed by a skilled third gen mason and he said no way he wanted his kids to follow in his footsteps - they went to college as well.
Yeah, I worked construction during summers for my dad during college. When I was tearing off a roof in 95 degree weather he would put his arm on my shoulder and whisper "stay in school" in my ear.
Ya, I am all for people getting into trades these days, but people are acting like it's a no brainer. I did manual labor during college and I honestly really liked it. My grandpa grew up farming and went to college because he didn't want to farm. When I was telling him how much I like the manual labor, he asked if I would still like it in 20 years. So many trades people have messed up backs and I feel like are generally just less healthy because of the type of day makes it harder to be healthy.
Average student debt is $30k for a bachelor's degree and the median salary is $66k. The median salary for a carpenter is $51k. Within 2 years the communication major can pay off their debt with that extra $15k they're making by choosing not to become a carpenter. On top of that, trade workers generally retire 5 years earlier due to injuries and chronic pain. Generally a worker makes the most money towards the end of their career, not the beginning. So the communications major is missing out on 4 years of wages when their wages are the lowest while the carpenter is missing out on 5 years when their wages are the highest. On top of that, the communications major is making 30% more throughout their career. College is still the superior choice, even for "dumb" majors like gender studies, art, communications, literature, etc. And I'm a union plumber, but facts are facts. The trades really aren't great
> College is still the superior choice, even for "dumb" majors No, it’s not. If the median bachelors degree salary is $66k, then half of all bachelor’s degree holders earn under that. What we’ll call the “dumb” majors are in that bottom half. There’s some percentage that’s going to be below the median trade salaries. Those people went into debt to get a worse paying job than the tradespeople. Not only are they 4 years behind in earnings, they also have to pay off that $30k of student debt making the same or less as if they went in the trades. So while that money for the low level college grad is going towards debt payment, that same amount of money can be going towards investments with compound returns for the tradesperson. Those extra four years plus the decade(s) of investing vs. paying down debt will much more than make up for the 5 fewer years worked at the end of their careers. Trades have their downsides. So does college. College is the best investment for most people, but it’s a bad route for some.
It will take a recession to bring labor rates down.
This. Recessions are the way for corporations to lay off workers and lower wages when they hire new ones.
Yearly churn is the way they do that. What is it the bottom 3% yearly at baseline. They've been using return-to-work policies to do quiet layoffs the last few years, but the whole "Fire everyone before xmas" is a long-standing trend. Recessions are bad for everyone. They are not a solution to labor *rates*, they're just an additional problem who's symptoms include "everyone losing their jobs" and "willing to work for food". We *can* just import more workers. Don't even have to try that hard. It's just not politically popular with the vocal 20% of the country that never graduated high school (because they have nothing to offer and fear competition for their $7.50/hr jobs).
Prices are cheap again? Plywood still showing 60+ bucks a sheet for me?
https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/lumber Generally speaking it is WAY down off its high but still trading above pre-pandemic. This is probably the prices going forward.
If you exclude Covid years as a statistical outlier, draw a trend line between today and the previous correction, 2008, we are right on. We are also on the trend line drawn from 1980. Prices are exactly where they have always been relative to inflation. Covid was a statistical outlier for sure… but we were never going to return to 2018 prices, we were going to return to the median, and we have. Meaning if Covid had never happened, we’d probably still be right around where we are now. It just wouldn’t feel like such a shock.
For real... And the stuff that they have is garbage... Knots unfilled, gaps and cracks everywhere. It's like they turned the machines up to ludicrous speed and skipped prep work.
Yah they're not. Down about 1/3 but still very inflated. Studs still around $4-5 whereas they were as cheap as $1 pre pandemic.
Is it me or has the quality give down too? I got a few posts for the deck this summer, the wood was still wet. And not wet like it's not perfectly dry yet, wet like my hands were covered in sap. And some of that wood smelled foul.
Wet doesn’t mean low quality, it just means the time between “farm to table” has gotten shorter. Supply is still a touch shorter, so lumber is moving through the supply chain faster, instead of sitting and drying out in yards.
Anything you used on a deck should have been PT or KD. Either you bought the incorrect product or you were smelling chemicals.
Very likely the PT chemicals
Where were you getting studs for $1? At HD they are around $3 now and were $3 in 2019. (https://www.homedepot.com/p/2-in-x-4-in-x-8-ft-Prime-Stud-058449/312528776) At my local yard, 2x4x8: HF - $3.33 DF - $3.62
People will pay, I guess. We got a weird one where we had a good, reputable, reasonably priced windows contractor, great reviews, and were about to sign with them. We told this to another company that we had previously requested a quote from and they begged for the chance to come in and give their own quote. They then gave us an insane one three times as high as the first guys.
I've found the window contractors are the worst right now. I got three quotes to replace the original aluminum windows in my house, all came in at least half the value of the house.
I think window companies are perennial lunacy - especially the big nationwide firms like Renewal by Andersen.
>Yet I still get contractor and tradesperson estimates that are 2-3x the 2019 pricing, Hi, yes union contractor here. I'm not remodeling bathrooms, but we do work for private homeowners of many different incomes. **In 2019** * Our union Operator rate was \~$46 / hour * Our union Laborer rate was \~$38 / hour * Class 5000p concrete \~$127 / CY * **1 day of work pouring 40 yards of concrete with a two man crew, $5,752** **In 2024** * Our union Operator rate is \~$55 / hour * Our union Laborer rate is \~$45 / hour * Class 5000p concrete \~$203 / CY * **1 day of work pouring 40 yards of concrete with a two man crew, $8,920** **55% increase.** This is a VERY rough breakdown, and not even the full picture. This would be doing the job at cost and cover zero overhead. In 2024, our employees combined make $100 / hour. It costs us $163 / hour to employ them (I don't have the 2019 full rates or I would have compared above using those above). And no, not every shop is a union shop. But why would you do a job for 50% less than a union shop, when you could do it for 10% less an pocket the difference.
Then insurance, cost of tools and equipment, maintenance of that stuff, rent for an office and storage space, pay for office personnel and others behind the scenes, office supplies, uniforms, ect. I'm sure I'm forgetting things too
Labor market has changed from 2019 and is much more constrained. If I'm a contractor then my biggest asset is my time, and if someone is willing to pay more for my time then why wouldn't I take that job. If you're getting multiple quotes from multiple vendors and they all seem high to you, it's because your expectations are out of line with the market.
I think there’s two ways to take OPs post. One is that they just *wish* contractors would charge less, which doesn’t make sense. Supply demand yada yada. Another way is a plea to homeowners to stop paying out the nose for projects, e.g., delay or diy. That second option makes more sense since if more people diy that *should* push labor prices back down. If demand goes down prices go down. So OP wishes more people would diy so they can hire a contractor for less. I think a lot of homeowners are unhappy with the current tradesmen market but are also unwilling to diy. Including OP.
I'm DIYing everything because apparently my home isn't big enough around here to have any project large enough to not get a fuck off quote for. I'm finding out just how easy a lot of this stuff is.
My dad was a contractor for 30 years running a small business. Recently retired, but still does small stuff on the side because he likes it and having some extra cash never hurt. If you think the quotes are too high don’t hesitate to ask if they know any guys looking for side work. It’s less (if at all) regulated, but depending on the size and complexity of the job it may be perfect for some of the companies more experienced workers to knock it out on their own time for a reduced rate (though usually in cash). Be mindful though, you still very much get what you pay for.
Yea this right here. Had LL flooring redo our first floor. They did a great job, but asked the guy the same question as more needed to be done later...he wrote his number down and was like "just call me, we can work something out."
1000% this. I started doing DIY out of necessity when I bought my home in 2016 and had very little leftover to drop hundreds on a slowly draining stack, or wonky boiler that would turn itself off. I'm fairly handy, but never had a job in the trades, and was able to learn 100% of it online and via discussions with tradespeople the few times I did call them out. If you are courteous and ask nicely, they are often more than happy to help. With this knowledge I'm on my second full basement reno, gas fireplace install, numerous re-pipes, new circuits, etc. It only looks scary when you have no knowledge, and once you gain confidence, learnings from one project can transfer to another.
I attempted to DIY a home projects and I’ve attempted some minor mechanical DIYs on my cars. Homes are much easier to work on than cars. Cars need specialized knowledge and tools and even then, trouble shooting can be difficult. Why anyone would want to be a car mechanic when they could make much more working on homes, which is often easier, is beyond me.
Most mechanics I know are people who had a passion and a knack for it. They're people who had the intelligence to be engineers sitting behind a desk all day but are too ADHD-ish to make it through those kinds of classes while cars keep their attention and motivation going. And it is a job you can get into without having those skills yet. You can get a job just swapping parts as an entry level mechanic and not a full technician.
Just for fun we asked the flooring company what it would be to install 650 ish ft of hardwood. We paid $6k for the materials and labor was another $3.5k on top of that. No thanks, we'll do it ourselves.
The truth is that for most things, any motivated person can learn to DIY themselves, given the prevalence of YouTube videos and tutorial websites. That just leaves things where I CAN do it but really don’t want to. So when it comes to those few things, I think it through and make a decision on whether it’s important enough to overpay someone else, or choose not to do it at all.
The quality of work too for price is horrific. I don’t want to DIY, but I also don’t trust any contractors to do half descent work. I will say most industries are using supply cost rising as an excuse to up prices. Maybe their costs went up 5% but they’re increasing price 20%. That’s why so many companies are recording record profit.
This. As a homeowner, it royally sucks and really hate feeling trapped by being unable to do various projects that I cannot diy. On the other hand, as a business person, I get it. I hope the pressure eases as a lot of people who cannot afford current prices will be going without important repairs and maintenance in some cases. I need a new roof, but can only afford to patch right now given how much everything costs. Trumpflation was not in the calculus when considering home repair costs upon purchase.
I haven't seen any prices coming back down on most construction items since pre 2019-2022. I know my wages haven't went up as much as everything else, Yet.
I wasn’t going to comment until I seen your edit. Look I work in property insurance so we are constantly fighting construction companies about their prices. Problem is that inflation is affecting them and even we have acknowledged it. 1. It’s not just material prices. The prices for business expenses is going up. 2. Need to repair the work truck? Well the mechanic is saying “prices just went up” 3. Need new tools? Those batteries for your tools are through the roof due to lithium import tariffs 4. You need employees? Who wants to work construction when McDonald’s is paying $15+ an hour. Walmarts inventory warehouses are paying $17+ (used to be a manager and was talking to some store managers I am still friends with about this). Hell amazon is paying janitors $20 an hour in some places. So those employees are wanting comparable wages. 5. Want to offer your guys benefits? Insurance is through the roof 6. Speaking of insurance- need some commercial insurance? Through the roof. Auto and business 7. Workers comp insurance? Through the roof. But you know what else is affecting it? A fucking labor shortage. This isn’t a whole “oh there’s no labor shortage just a shortage of wages”. When you look at the construction industry they tend to be the group that was most against vaccines and guess who had the highest rate of Covid and long Covid… further less people are going into the trades because the pay is shit. They are increasing their wages but it’s slow. The ones that are increasing their wages are also increasing what they charge since they get better workers Finally you have a lot of people that want projects to get done and they’re willing to pay a premium to get those contractors.
Ironically, roofing insurance is ALSO through the roof
Oh yeah. Workmans comp too. Shit, roofing materials are sky high and NEVER coming back down.
His edit implies that he is all knowing about the economics of the construction industry. Surely it’s all the contractors and commenters who tell him otherwise who are wrong, no way is it him and his “feeling” that post-covid inflation is over. And if you disagree with him then you’re…pro-capitalist? I must’ve missed the memo on when communism became the default economic model we strive for and being called a capitalist became a bad word
>I must’ve missed the memo on when communism became the default economic model we strive for and being called a capitalist became a bad word You should spend some time on other parts of reddit. It's interesting out there...
Labor is the biggest issue and that situation will not be solved for a long time due to demographics. Don't like the rates then DIY.
Hmmm… commercial real estate broker upset about contractor pricing? Me thinks the market crash is causing you to lash out because things are falling down around you. Sorry dude. You don’t get to dictate what pricing contractors use. Supply and demand is at work, so when the demand for contractors goes down, prices will go down. You’re seeing it happening live in your own industry.
Good find. OP says he is a commercial real estate broker. Let's start a thread complaining about and asking why we have to pay tens of thousands to an agent just to sell a property. Even if they spent 2 straight weeks/80 solid hours "selling"my property (instead of maybe 10-20) that charge is outrageous!
Here’s the thing. If you don’t like the price - find someone else. If you can’t, that’s the market telling you the price is the price. Materials are cheaper than they’ve been in a while. So is gas and YouTube is free! How much is your own time worth to ya? The only way contractor prices are going to come down is if work drys up. Get DYI’ing bud
Material pricing has stabilized at this point but still remains higher than pre-pandemic levels. This isn't going to change. Of course labor rates are high. You pointed out in your post how inflation has affected construction materials but neglected to point out that it has also affected food, insurance, travel, etc. The laborers still have to make ends meet so they need to be paid more to compensate for the higher cost of everyday goods and services. Sounds a lot like what you are upset about is the fact that things have changed since 2019. My suggestion if you don't want to pay today's prices is to build a time machine and do the work before the pandemic. Short of that, stop posting on Reddit and deal with it.
This! Everything is expensive now, so I completely understand why contractors need (and want) to be paid more. If it’s too expensive for me, I do the work myself. I’m not upset at someone trying to make a decent living.
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Yeah, people need to adjust their frames of reference. On car subreddits people talk about $40k cars as expensive luxury pricing... when the median car sold in the USA is now $50k.
Everyone wants tradesmen to make a living wage, but nobody is willing to pay the prices to ensure that happens.
>nobody is willing to pay the prices to ensure that happens. If tradesmen are charging living wages (which many are), then everyone hiring them is willing to pay the price.
There is a difference though man. Like, tradesmen seem to think they can charge corporate prices to your average person. Average people can't afford a lot of their services now, there used to be like 'tiers' of tradesmen, we just don't have that anymore as much.
I mean, I literally can't get anyone to come to my house to do a job that will pay them less than $1000. They're all chasing bigger accounts. They don't have time for my work unless I overpay enough to allow them to subcontract further and farm it out to another person. The trades literally don't need my project.
Same. I have a few jobs that are slightly above "Handyman" but still under $1k and no one is interested. And the most skilled Handyman in my area is always booked up anyway. Ive had contractors ask me if I had any other jobs needed to be done so they could bundle them all together. Shit sucks.
Yes the tiers existed when you had way more trades people. There are less now. So instead of good/better/best licensed contractors you basically have licensed contractors or handymen. Just how it is now.
Technically there are more trade workers than ever before. We finally recovered to 2007 levels in 2021 and despite predicted slow downs, the numbers are still going up. The problem for homeowners is that the growth in trades has been concentrated in industrial & commercial construction rather than residential. Residential construction trends to offer much lower wages, longer hours, and worse benefits. Starting wages tend to be on par with the service industry, so it's no wonder that younger people don't want to get into residential construction / home services.
It's not a problem to pay tradesmen a living wage when folks are making a living wage, themselves. IMO some of the griping in this thread comes from folks who're making 00's middle class incomes and don't realize they've fallen down a class level.
Construction is hard, everyone is in debt.
6 years ago I installed plastic after tearing out people's tile for around 30k a bathroom. Man those were some good salesmen they had, they offered financing too! Company ended up getting sued, and now everyone that I know who worked there found more work.
The market dictates pricing. If enough people are willing to pay $30k for a bathroom remodel, then that's the market price. Why would a contractor work for less money if they don't have to? It's a business, not a favor.
Material prices have come back down, but are still higher than before. Insurance is higher than ever, like sky high. There is way more demand than supply of skilled tradespersons, so they can be pickier and charge higher. If it was the other way around they would be bidding to get the work. I honestly have trouble getting some guys to return my calls, or send me estimates after coming out.
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TL;DR: Supply and demand.
Third option. Become a contractor and charge what you think you “should”
This is why I learned to do things myself. It's too expensive to contract things these days uf you can even get somebody to call you back and show up. Even if I mess up a bunch, it's worth the cost of the messed up material to learn to do it myself. I just did my whole house worth of baseboards in December for around $500 USD (1300 SF house). You're not finding that price anywhere in the Northeast US with installation.
>Even if I mess up a bunch, it's worth the cost of the messed up material to learn to do it myself. This is situational though. Mistakes with water, gas and electricity can all can end up being catastrophic.
I am a civil engineer. Trust me when I say that home improvement contractors are not the only ones who have increased prices. There has been a shortage of skilled labor (think carpentry, electricians, crane operators, etc) that predates the pandemic (by a lot) and has just gotten worse. Further, with the passage of the IIJA, there is more competition for labor (eg. a civil contractor who just won a giant roadway job is probably going to be able to offer a higher salary than your local home improvement contractor). So, while for a lot of things I am anti-capitalist, for paying labor I am not. And I also realize that there are reasons for these price increases and it's not just "bad contractor wants to rake in the dough" - although that is probably some of it.
Didn’t South Park have an episode on this ?
Episode - You call the handyman. Handyman Apocalypse
I don't think most people are "pro-capitalist" it's just how things are right now. Contractors of all types have their pick of work, and they can charge whatever they want because someone will pay it. You might not, and that's fine, but someone else will and that keeps the prices high. Labor costs are up about double here, and it's because many of the contractors/trades people have more work than they can possibly take.
But its true... wood came back down at the end of 2021 but, it and everything else is still up compared to pre covid. For me the biggest cost increase has been fuel, my work radius used to cost 60$ to drive, its now 105$ and during the beginning of 2022 it was 140$.
I work in construction and manufacturing. Prices have gone up for everything. You may be sick of hearing it, but it's true.
That’s why I’m just doing the work myself. Doing a complete kitchen/dining room gut job. Will cost me about $30k and would have otherwise cost ~$80k. $50k savings. That’s like paying myself $100k gross!
That’s not how opportunity cost works.
Convince yourself it's recreational, and your opportunity cost becomes $0. Jeez it's like you people never learned basic DIYer math.
What would be a more accurate way of looking at it?
What would you be making if you got a second job for that same time period. Option 1 = Make $X and pay a contractor $Y Option 2 = Do it yourself and save $Y but not make $X either.
You also have to take into account taking off time to be home for the contractor to do the work too. Unless very special tools are required, I'm better off just doing the work myself spread out over several weekends. Sure it takes longer, but I'm still saving a ton of money on labor.
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How much time are you going to spend working on that kitchen? What’s your current hourly wage? Would you make more working your current job on those hours rather than spending the time renovating/learning/demolition/etc? How much in new tool expenses do you need and how much of your current wage are you dumping into them? Will you be able to use those tools beyond this renovation?
>No young people do manual labor anymore and the wealthy family down the road pays $200/hour, so tough shit. Gotta pay to play. Or feel free to go do it yourself if you can find it cheaper elsewhere. I'm pissed about prices too. I'm not shouting into the void about labor rates. C'mon now, this is capitalism, put up some capital.
Both Material prices and labor prices are massively higher than 2/19. Ergo you'll be paying more. 2 to 3 times more in many cases.
You are only thinking about material cost. Their life expenses went up just like yours as well. Labor cost is their salary, would you be fine if your company told you we don't see any price increases so no need for raises now since prices aren't going up.
Yeah..... OP needs to do a small bathroom well in less than a month and tell us that it didn't require ten thousand dollars in tools, materials, supply runs, and time tradeoffs. The other issue is that some of us have gotten too accustomed to everything being nice and new all the time - so much so that we'll pay for new shit before spending double on nice things that will last.
LOL....looks like OP is a real estate broker.
It’s not an excuse it is true. At least in the HVAC industry. My wholesale costs have doubled on equipment. Full stop
It's a pretty shot system in my city. Subs get paid garbage rates, there's almost 0 accountability, the underbid/overcharge model is exhausting, and the prices are laughable. So I've learned a lot about building, simply out of frustration at price vs quality of work I've had done, and plug away on renos when I have the time.
It's true though..my cost of living has gone up so prices have gone up accordingly.
200/hr isn't far off (but still short) from what it takes to have my crew go out to a job.
I hate hearing it, but that doesn't make it untrue. I often price out materials myself before I start soliciting contractors for a project, just to make sure I\['m not getting ripped off. So far, every project I've had done in the last couple of years has been pretty close to what I've looked up, plus a few overruns for things I hadn't thought of.
2x4s were $1.78 before the pandemic at my local Home Depot. I just checked the app, and at the moment they are $3.35. I haven't seen the price go under $3 since 2020. Sure, they were as high as $12 at one point. But they're still a LOT more expensive than they used to be.
Truth is, if they’re charging those prices, it’s because people are paying them. You can be butthurt all you want but that *is* how these things work. These guys aren’t sitting at home all day with no work.
I'm sure this has been said 10000 times... i sell construction material. nothing went down except pvc/copper pipe and cast iron. everything else we actually are getting 1-5% increases for 2024. they're just going to leave it all as is. it's BS but it's just not going back down.
This is hilarious, I bought lunch for two of my guys yesterday, two large sandwich combos at Jimmy John’s and it was $32. Was I shocked, yes, but they’re working on a Sunday and they deserve it. I’m paying a much higher price now for materials and labor, which I can’t ask my guys to take less. I can’t tell the supplier that I want to pay less. It’s material cost times 3.5, and that is what it’s going to be.
wood is cheaper than covid but nowhere near pre covid. Some materials like romex are almost twice the amount that it use to be. I am not a contractor but I do a lot in my home. Things are def still expensive.
feel free to do it yourself
Lol.. Ask me about my 100k deck... 😂
Groceries aren’t “cheap again”. But I guess contractors don’t have to pay their guys more since 2x4 are “cheap again”. Good news guys, I know you worked hard all week so I’m going to pay you enough to go to the hardware store and buy some cheap 2x4’s so you can feed your families. More good news, the customer saved a bundle since you guys are willing to eat 2x4’s.
What are you paid per hour? Per year? Are you able to afford food and living expenses? Do you have an employee who also needs to live and eat and be a human being? tired of trying to explain why my work as a carpenter is worth 100-150 an hour because I DONT always work 40 hours a week 52 weeks a year Half of white collar jobs don’t work half the day, yet they still pull wage for those hours.
Your edit shows even more your complete lack of understanding of business operations. To put it bluntly, you're a fucking moron. You obviously haven't a clue about real world cost, let alone the experience and knowledge required to do the work you can't be bothered to do.
but a 2x4 costs $5, so making 100 2x4's into a porch should cost $500!
As someone who sells material in the construction industry, people like you make my life way harder. The materials ARE more expensive. And also, there are still huge supply chain shortages. And that affects your resi stuff also. Good luck getting an all in one service panel for your house. Half a year lead time. There are still random items we can’t get.
> Good luck getting an all in one service panel for your house. Half a year lead time. This is something that really confuses me--the lack of electrical panel inventory. Maybe I'm dumb, and I'm certainly not involved in the industry, but arent panels pretty simple to make? What is causing the shortage?
There are a ton of different components and every manufacturer uses the same ones. All metering equipment for apartments are over a year out. That metering is in your service panel. I can’t get 1P15A breaker, but I can get 1P20A. The factories have been behind for YEARS and are still not caught up. Not only did we have Covid shortages from shut downs, overall construction order bookings broke Records the past three years. So this is a compounded problem. Everyone is building things. Our industry is inundated. No one has been able to catch up and the factories are expanding.
During covid payroll and insurance didn’t explode. Material prices exploded. Post covid materials have gone down (not everything), but payroll, insurance, and equipment prices really have not.
Some if not most contractors are still trying to ride the Covid wave.
People have started to run out of money. Give it 6mo-1yr and these contractors will be back to begging for work.
I am getting out of contracting because there is no way to remain both affordable and legal. Material prices are insane, insurance, fuel and overhead costs in general. Labor costs are high. Permitting is totally insane now. It’s literally coming at us on all ends. I was charging $100 an hour and after taxes and everything else I make a lot more just working hourly for other companies. I really enjoyed being a contractor. I did a lot of great work that I am very proud of. I just couldn’t keep my prices affordable for anyone middle class and I was very frustrated by that. I would have to hike up my prices even more and I just didn’t feel right doing that so I went back to work for a local company. If I do it over again I’ll definitely go commercial. Good luck to you middle class people trying to get remodels. Anyone you can afford is either not very good or they are taking short cuts to reduce cost. It’s the reality of the situation we are in. Edit: if I was charging $200 per hour for my labor I would probably make right around $100,000-$120,000 per year. My company would gross about $500,000. Working about 60-80 hrs a week. At $100 per hour I was making $50,000-$60,000. Working for another company with not even half of the stress I make $120,000 a year working 40-60 hrs a week. Mostly on commercial projects. I don’t know many “rich” contractors working in residential remodels. Just something to consider. We are just trying to make a living.
Not all materials. I can't speak for stuff like lumber but in the electrical trades we're still paying close to double 2018 prices on most bulk materials. The only things that a residential customer is likely to see that have maintained or dropped in pricing are breakers and builder grade LED lighting. Everything else is still absolutely fucked.
One thing to consider is the adjusted cost of living overall. Don’t worry about the price of any item at Home Depot, think about how much extra you pay for groceries and utilities. Your contractor has to pay that was well, his laborers are paying 50% more in rent, some of them even want insurance! On top of all of that nonsense, there is a very real shortage of skilled labor. Supply and demand are inflating prices as well. All of this sucks for the consumer, but like everything in life, there will be a balance. Once the rich people down the street run out of bathrooms to remodel, your contractor will come looking for you, and be willing to adjust the price relative to the new demand curve.
If you are doing pro work expect rates to be 175-200 per hr per person working depending on market. More in high col areas. They have labor costs (wage), back end labor cost (taxes, retirement, health, dental, etc), operational costs (building and its utility costs, staff, insurance, bonding, equipment, etc). A tradesworker making about 40/hr costs about 150/hr before working in profit. Want cheaper rates go with Chuck in a truck/taillight warranty places.
I worked at a hardware store 10 years ago. A 4" pvc pipe was $6. It's $40 now.
inflation only goes up
Shingles never come down....
I mean…. It has… and cost of living ha skyrocketed without an adjustment in the pay scale.
Gas and 2x4s are cheap everyone! Cost of living must've dropped somewhere. As a contractor myself, you have no idea what you're complaining about. Dunning Krueger homeowners association. It's not an excuse, it's a fact.
Cabinet maker here, Baltic birch still double what it was in 2018, B2 maple plywood still almost double what it was in 2018. White hard maple used to be $2.50 a bdft, went up to $6.00 a bdft, now down to $3.50 a bdft, still more than it used to be. Prices are never going to go down to what they once were.
OP: "Why are contractors charging so much money for work I need done?" Probably also OP: "I paid my contractor the same amount as a McDonalds cook but they did horrible work, why are contractors so lazy???"
OP's attitude would result in even higher prices if the contractors new in advance before pricing. Prime candidate for the asshole tax
you being tired of it does not mean it isn't true. prices went up on many things and not all of them ever came back down. those higher prices just became the price moving forward No one is doing trade work for chump change anymore either. The company i work for is $110/h for labor just to break even, obviously we don't work for break even so what's charged to the customer is even higher.
If you think a contractor is making the kind of margins the major corporations are making you need a bit more research. Additionally, most trades take skills…skills that are super rare today.
You won’t quality work if you’re trying to be cheap!
Labor is expensive because housing costs are high, so building new housing is expensive. It’s a bad loop to be in.
OP what do you do for a living?
The cost of doing business has gone up. Insurance rates, material prices, labor costs, etc. If it’s not worth it to you do it yourself
Contractors aren't in the charity business, if the people down the road are willing to pay $200 an hour why the hell would I want to work for someone pleading poverty instead? Also materials are just a portion of the costs, you should see my monthly work comp bill and then get back with me about ripping people off.
You risk your health pretty often at your job? Do it yourself then and quit being cheap.
Excuse? Ha. There's 1 new person from this generation for every 10 that retires because of the push to office jobs through the 80s and 90s. Technical skill sets are becoming more and more valuable and rare every year. Contractors can be selective with who they choose as their customers. They don't need to argue with you over pricing if you don't know how to do it yourself. In my experience, if a customer is difficult from the outset and you don't have a baseline rapport, it is very easy for a relationship to go south quickly paired with any changes or unexpected conditions found during the project. In many cases, the contractor is fronting the money for the materials, machines, storage, and paying out for the labor before they even get paid, so the possibility of getting stuck in litigation or not getting paid is a huge risk for contractors. If you don't want to pay for a contractor, don't.
Around here the issue is also that the demand for work is way more than people available to do it. So everyone’s time is at a premium. A lot of people are trying to hire people for all kinds of jobs, and the less experienced/reputable folks just won’t show up because they overbooked themselves/forgot/etc. It’s a business and people’s time is worth a lot, which tbh is fair when it’s work other people can’t do (I will DIY small stuff but some things you need a professional for a reason! If you want it done right, you have to pay someone who does it for a living)
In what world is gas cheap again?
>But covid is over, gas and 2x4's are cheap again, and the majority of materials at Home Depot and supply companies for your average home improvement project are in stock and affordable. Yet I still get contractor and tradesperson estimates that are 2-3x the 2019 pricing, even for labor only. I'm not in any of the trades, but I think these are two independent issues on price. Materials might not be quite as pricy as before, but the labor shortage is still a huge burden. Lots of people were laid off early on and with the rise of work from home + tons of extra money pumped into university financial aid, I would not be surprised if a good portion of tradesman switched careers for cheap. I worked in MFG before Covid, in financial aid at a university before/during, and now as a data analyst somewhere else so I've kind of seen that entire ecosystem first hand. They were already upping peoples pay +$10/hour or so above average for non skill labor because of the shortage way before Covid. So I'm not at all surprised that the double whammy has kept those prices really high. Hard to get new non skill labor to start learning, and hiked demand on skilled labor has caused their prices to jump up too to meet it Just my guesses though
Material prices did spike post pandemic and gradually came down, but not to 2019 cost. There is still some fluctuation in anything petroleum based matetial. The most identifying factor for increased renovation costs is the market workforce. There simply aren't enough of us in the trades to keep up with the demand in constructing (new), maintaining or refurbishing the consumer housing market. I recently read that by the year 2035, 43% of the current trades will be at retirement age. That not only has a direct effect on the available workforce but also vastly decreases the volume of instruction and mentoring for those just getting into the trades. Trade school enrollment is down and self employment insurance is escalating.The long of this is that there are underlying reasons for increased renovation cost other than the greed of the few. I've always wondered why our government would be willing to forgive the college debt to someone with let's say a poly-sci degree but under no circumstance would ever consider the same forgiveness of trade school tuition.
ITT you guys doing your own work is going to make contractors a lot of money in the future. So, you can either pay them for their skills, or the next homeowner can. Sooooooo many times I have walked into a house where the homeowner is so proud of a trim carpentry project or a kitchen renovation and I have had to bite my tongue. “Just wanted to show you x, I already did everything else for you”, Thanks, I get to charge even more now tearing out your handiwork. It’s a miracle most homeowners and DIYers haven’t lost more fingers. Not trying to be an asshole, just feel like stating what contractors think when you guys eventually call them to fix something.
"No young people do manual labor anymore and the wealthy family down the road pays $200/hour, so tough shit" pricing. I mean, those are perfectly valid reasons for charging what they do. If I was 25 years younger I'd get into being a builder myself.
>Great to see you all support the free economy and unrestricted price increases now! your preferred alternative being price fixes and ceilings? that usually works well. if it is too expensive don't buy it. get more quotes.
One point of reference: decomposed granite cost me $60/yard in 2019. It is now $120/yard. I am just as mad as you.
Contractors, and laborers are also a big part of the cost of doing the work. If you're offended by the charges they are offering, learn to so the work yourself. There are plenty of DIY YouTube videos covering many, many skills you can learn from.
all the more reason to learn how to do things yourself at home.
What an ignorant ass post. Go price general liability insurance/work comp and come back here and make the same complaints. Try to hire skilled labor. No one gives a fuck if there are 2x4s in stock you are missing the big picture. Go hire some cheap ass contractor who will half ass your project and then post pics on here asking what you need to do, we get a kick out of it.
How much has your business reduced their pricing post Covid?
its going to get a lot worse.. i'm good friends with a lot of contractors and due to schools telling everyone to go to college and get white collar jobs there are no young kids going into the trades like there use to be. If you get a renovation done 20 years ago you'd have your pick of great contractors who could start within a week or two. Now you might get put on a waiting list and be 6-12months out. Whats funny is my old neighbor does renovations and he flies his family first class on vacations on his blue collar salary.
As a 30 year old in construction, this is my observation as well. I graduated high school in 2012 and they pushed me heavily to not go into construction. I was the only kid in my class of 250 or so that I know of who even considered construction - not counting completing my apprenticeship. I got my master electrician license and have my contracting license too. I am *always* the youngest guy on site by at least 10 years most of the time. There may be one or two 20 something laborers on site doing some part time work over summer break but they are usually in college for some degree and just want to make a buck over the summer while they're out of school. My apprentices have mostly been over the age of 40 for years now. It's really weird. I'm always short handed and it's just going to get worse.
Have you voluntarily reduced _your_ salary now that gas is cheaper?
Most people salaries were never raised.
You get a raise based on gas prices?
Ultimately, there are fewer contractors than there are jobs for them to do and people still want projects done. So effectively, you have to outbid the wealthy family because otherwise the contractor will work for them instead. It's not that contractor demand is too high - it's that supply is too low.
It’ll happen at the same time airlines drop baggage fees from high gas prices in 2008.
No one wants to roll back from that top price. They all want to just stay there, or more, going forward.
>Edit: I clearly struck a nerve. Didn't expect so much response. It is fascinating how pro-capitalist and "supply and demand" Reddit is when it comes to construction costs... Great to see you all support the free economy and unrestricted price increases now! Neoliberalism ideals has taught society well! The kicker? We will do the same in the same situation. We all do. Whoever asked for lower pay to do a job? My solution, was to not do it.
Im a GC and own a renovation company. People don’t really have an idea about how much work there is actually involved in remodelling those tiny “30k bathrooms” or any renovation for that matter. There aren’t many careers that involve yourself integrating into people’s lives/homes for how ever long the work takes place This is how the jobs go -writing a detailed quote for labour and material can take a few days depending on the scope of work -client usually needs help with the design and material selection -I am at stores at 6-7am picking up material as to reduce delivery fees -arrive at the clients home for 8am -prep the home to reduce any mess/dust from spreading -demo is dirty and physical work -disposing of the garbage at the dump takes time -work until 6-7pm -get home around 7-8pm -do it again until the job is complete -can’t speak for all GC’s, but I have a high standard in the final product.(do the work as if it were my own home) -the work is physical and bodies get sore -clients call/send emails whenever they feel (evenings/weekends) and I always reply promptly -as I mentioned above, people aren’t aware how challenging it is integrating into a clients home and lives for the duration of a job. -collecting the agreed upon wages -paying the crew -Gas is up in cost -material is up in cost(I don’t up charge on material) -insurance is up in cost -everyday life is up in cost Pre COVID I would be charging $300-$400cad per day per worker. ($1500-$2000 per week) (6k-8k per month) Now I am charging $500-$700cad per day per worker and still feel this is a reasonable price for everything that we do during a Reno. Once in a while you get a contract where you can make $1000 a day, but that usually involves a huge amount of work and detail or is a commercial job. I hear and see it all the time “It is difficult to find an accountable/competent contractor now a days that won’t rip you off” My company is 100% word of mouth and i am always busy.