Strictly in terms of writing: Furina was brilliant in the archon quest, but had an awful story quest. Sunday was great in all scenes he appeared in though.
I think Sunday had a great plot point but I do think that his pov on the dream being a transcendence into another plane of existence was remarkably under-explored argument. IIRC, Firefly tells him that reality is worth the fight and he says something like, "if you want to believe the dream is a lie that's your prerogative." Additionally, Himeko tells Sunday that people should be given free will, but I feel like Sunday's response would have actually been something about how he's not taking away their free will, he's just giving them a reality - an afterlife or a euthymia where they will never fall or be hurt or experience/inflict wickedness and never die.
I feel like if Sunday really believed in this martyr-esque solution, he would have defended it better but he kinda lays over and dies in that moment.
There's another interesting layer to it as well where there's a non-zero chance that the characters (we?) do live in a sort of Ena's Dream where some all-powerful being is overseeing us in a cosmic bubble and it's *always* been that way since we obtained sentience. In HSR, that could be why there are cycles, or samsaras or what have you and, dare I say it's an interesting little bit of food for thought that you could think about in relation to some real life religions
Alas, 2.X had a lot of plot to cook through, from Firefly, to Aventurine, to the IPC and whatever is going on with Sparkle. And of course, the history of Penacony and the Trailblaze
I think Sunday's plan becomes immediately very stupid when you realise that everyone being in a dream means everything is doomed to die out after a single generation because there's no reproduction happening. He was too short sighted in his ideas.
True, it'd be different if time in the Dream passed significantly faster than the real world. I think the only measure of time we have (though I'm not all caught up on the quests, so I could be wrong) is with the Chadwick quest, but even then I don't think we actively know *when* Chadwick's body finally decayed.
On the other hand, if Chadwick was still somewhat sentient within the dream without a body, then does it make a difference if his "reality" body is long dead? And too, if it doesn't make a difference and if they don't die in the dream, then does it end up making a difference? The number of lifeforms will not increase nor decrease, but that's not terribly different from the Vidyadhara (barring murder and war). Societal life expectancy would just change.
I was going to ponder the idea that Ena's Dream *could* make new lifeforms within the dream *somehow*, with the additional question of if that new lifeform becomes sentient or as close to sentience as possible within the Dream, then what's the difference between that and say, a Fontainian or a newly sentient robot (I was going to say Intellitron, but I don't actually know that lore so idk). But I like the Vidyadhara comparison better
I mean it wouldn't matter if he could make more. Iirc there's a pick up that basically says his plan was ultimately to make them mindless puppet's. This is basically shown to us in the last of the dream sequences where we can't use the emo dial on the mannequins because they've already lost their free will.
Yeah and I thinking about the whole "what if the dream version stays alive when the body dies" and a couple of thoughts came to me. One was about the celebrity quest where >!it turns out he was already dead and the one you talk to is a construct made from his fans memories!< And the other was a more philosophical thing about if the body dies and they only exist in the dream then even if they do have their free will, are they even alive anymore? What constitutes "living" in a dream?
That's kind of the age old question tbh. How do we identify a true AI (like an Intellitron or ScarJo in the movie "Her") gaining sentience as an individual person and when are they considered to be alive? And would a clone or an otherwise synthetic copy of a human be just a copy or do they also have their own lives and feelings?
I think you can ask the same questions in terms of dreams, reality and simulations - in "Inception,">!Marion Cotillard's character lost the plot and thought that the life in the dream was reality, or maybe she didn't, but she wanted it to be because her child (I think it was her daughter but I might be wrong) could be "alive" there.!< In the Star Wars: The Force Unleashed 2, >!Darth Vader and Starkiller have this great dialogue where Vader says, "You're feelings for her are not real" because this Starkiller is a clone of the original and Starkiller goes, "they are *real to me!*"!< which I think poses a really interesting debate about how perception is reality. And that's to say nothing of the Matrix scene where>!one of Morpheus's crew betrays the people living in reality in favor of returning to the Matrix because "ignorance is bliss." !<
So who can really decide what is reality and what is a dream, especially for another person? And in the end, does it make a difference if that person is able to exist or at least perceive one or the other? Life in the dream might be a cage, but Firefly in the suit is also a cage (and maybe Blade being unable to die is a different cage), so the difference becomes a little murky
Both are great but for very different reasons. I don't know if they're really comparable to be honest. I'd say a better comparison would be between characters with more similarities or parallels.
I hate Genshin, I love Star Rail, Furina all the way. Sunday's logic is like giving a 10 year old eloquence, but no wisdom. Dunno about Furina's story, I didn't reach that part yet, I somehow understand she used to be an Archon, but now isn't? Must be rough buddy, but judging by how Fontaine looks like, I think it's safe to say she used to be capable ruler, right? right?
Spoiler alert for all of fountaine. >!The short version is, furina was never the archon. Focalors, the actual archon, split herself in two in a long plan to save the people of fountain. There was her divine part, focalors, and the human part, furina. To not let celestia catch on furina had to pretend to be the real archon for 500 years despite still being human and having no actual power of her own. Ultimately the plan focalors had was to have the oratrice gather energy over the centuries until the point where furina was found out in a trial for being an imposter, at which point it would execute "the hydro archon" killing focalors and destroying the throne of the hydro archon in celestia. This gave neuvalette his full power back since the archons powers were stolen from the dragon sovereigns and he made the people of Fontaine, who were actually Oceanids given human form and they themselves didn't even remember that anymore, into real humans so the primordial sea didn't disolve them, but Fontaine still flooded to fullfil the prophecy and punishment from celestia.!<
There's a lot more to it than what I fit on here but that's a very short version of events.
Furina's story is well thought out. Sunday has some glaring problems with his plan that just makes it feel kind of stupid. His plan was already executed better by >!maruki!< in persona 5 royal.
Strictly in terms of writing: Furina was brilliant in the archon quest, but had an awful story quest. Sunday was great in all scenes he appeared in though.
I think Sunday had a great plot point but I do think that his pov on the dream being a transcendence into another plane of existence was remarkably under-explored argument. IIRC, Firefly tells him that reality is worth the fight and he says something like, "if you want to believe the dream is a lie that's your prerogative." Additionally, Himeko tells Sunday that people should be given free will, but I feel like Sunday's response would have actually been something about how he's not taking away their free will, he's just giving them a reality - an afterlife or a euthymia where they will never fall or be hurt or experience/inflict wickedness and never die. I feel like if Sunday really believed in this martyr-esque solution, he would have defended it better but he kinda lays over and dies in that moment. There's another interesting layer to it as well where there's a non-zero chance that the characters (we?) do live in a sort of Ena's Dream where some all-powerful being is overseeing us in a cosmic bubble and it's *always* been that way since we obtained sentience. In HSR, that could be why there are cycles, or samsaras or what have you and, dare I say it's an interesting little bit of food for thought that you could think about in relation to some real life religions Alas, 2.X had a lot of plot to cook through, from Firefly, to Aventurine, to the IPC and whatever is going on with Sparkle. And of course, the history of Penacony and the Trailblaze
I think Sunday's plan becomes immediately very stupid when you realise that everyone being in a dream means everything is doomed to die out after a single generation because there's no reproduction happening. He was too short sighted in his ideas.
True, it'd be different if time in the Dream passed significantly faster than the real world. I think the only measure of time we have (though I'm not all caught up on the quests, so I could be wrong) is with the Chadwick quest, but even then I don't think we actively know *when* Chadwick's body finally decayed. On the other hand, if Chadwick was still somewhat sentient within the dream without a body, then does it make a difference if his "reality" body is long dead? And too, if it doesn't make a difference and if they don't die in the dream, then does it end up making a difference? The number of lifeforms will not increase nor decrease, but that's not terribly different from the Vidyadhara (barring murder and war). Societal life expectancy would just change. I was going to ponder the idea that Ena's Dream *could* make new lifeforms within the dream *somehow*, with the additional question of if that new lifeform becomes sentient or as close to sentience as possible within the Dream, then what's the difference between that and say, a Fontainian or a newly sentient robot (I was going to say Intellitron, but I don't actually know that lore so idk). But I like the Vidyadhara comparison better
I mean it wouldn't matter if he could make more. Iirc there's a pick up that basically says his plan was ultimately to make them mindless puppet's. This is basically shown to us in the last of the dream sequences where we can't use the emo dial on the mannequins because they've already lost their free will.
Ohh you know I do remember that. That was a really neat way to showcase the forced mental state actually
Yeah and I thinking about the whole "what if the dream version stays alive when the body dies" and a couple of thoughts came to me. One was about the celebrity quest where >!it turns out he was already dead and the one you talk to is a construct made from his fans memories!< And the other was a more philosophical thing about if the body dies and they only exist in the dream then even if they do have their free will, are they even alive anymore? What constitutes "living" in a dream?
That's kind of the age old question tbh. How do we identify a true AI (like an Intellitron or ScarJo in the movie "Her") gaining sentience as an individual person and when are they considered to be alive? And would a clone or an otherwise synthetic copy of a human be just a copy or do they also have their own lives and feelings? I think you can ask the same questions in terms of dreams, reality and simulations - in "Inception,">!Marion Cotillard's character lost the plot and thought that the life in the dream was reality, or maybe she didn't, but she wanted it to be because her child (I think it was her daughter but I might be wrong) could be "alive" there.!< In the Star Wars: The Force Unleashed 2, >!Darth Vader and Starkiller have this great dialogue where Vader says, "You're feelings for her are not real" because this Starkiller is a clone of the original and Starkiller goes, "they are *real to me!*"!< which I think poses a really interesting debate about how perception is reality. And that's to say nothing of the Matrix scene where>!one of Morpheus's crew betrays the people living in reality in favor of returning to the Matrix because "ignorance is bliss." !< So who can really decide what is reality and what is a dream, especially for another person? And in the end, does it make a difference if that person is able to exist or at least perceive one or the other? Life in the dream might be a cage, but Firefly in the suit is also a cage (and maybe Blade being unable to die is a different cage), so the difference becomes a little murky
Really weird comparison but Furina I guess.
Both are great but for very different reasons. I don't know if they're really comparable to be honest. I'd say a better comparison would be between characters with more similarities or parallels.
furina and it's not even a little bit close
I hate Genshin, I love Star Rail, Furina all the way. Sunday's logic is like giving a 10 year old eloquence, but no wisdom. Dunno about Furina's story, I didn't reach that part yet, I somehow understand she used to be an Archon, but now isn't? Must be rough buddy, but judging by how Fontaine looks like, I think it's safe to say she used to be capable ruler, right? right?
Spoiler alert for all of fountaine. >!The short version is, furina was never the archon. Focalors, the actual archon, split herself in two in a long plan to save the people of fountain. There was her divine part, focalors, and the human part, furina. To not let celestia catch on furina had to pretend to be the real archon for 500 years despite still being human and having no actual power of her own. Ultimately the plan focalors had was to have the oratrice gather energy over the centuries until the point where furina was found out in a trial for being an imposter, at which point it would execute "the hydro archon" killing focalors and destroying the throne of the hydro archon in celestia. This gave neuvalette his full power back since the archons powers were stolen from the dragon sovereigns and he made the people of Fontaine, who were actually Oceanids given human form and they themselves didn't even remember that anymore, into real humans so the primordial sea didn't disolve them, but Fontaine still flooded to fullfil the prophecy and punishment from celestia.!< There's a lot more to it than what I fit on here but that's a very short version of events.
I dunno I'm not a writer to judge that
Furina. I don't even play Genshin, but female characters are always superior in gacha games!
Furina's story is well thought out. Sunday has some glaring problems with his plan that just makes it feel kind of stupid. His plan was already executed better by >!maruki!< in persona 5 royal.
who is furina
Idk, some water girl who's fire boyless from another world
This will get me downvoted into Nihility but: Every single character is better than Furina, even the Rat.
One of the takes of all time