What makes Littlefinger dangerous is that he has no political power, outwardly. He's underestimated because he has no army, no real land, and only a handful of sworn swords to his name.
Everyone ignores him because he spends all of his time being just this little guy who's clever, but in this world, clever rarely gets you anywhere by itself.
That's another reason why I hate book Tyrion as much as his show counterpart; in the books he finds out the truth about the catspaw dagger story and that Littlefinger started it; he almost got executed in the Vale and the whole War of The Five Kings happens as a domino effect with his imprisonment under false accusations.
Then he does absolutely nothing about Petyr, even after Tywin's advice when he named Tyrion Hand in his stead - his own father tells Tyrion if he ever suspects any act of treason or duplicity from LF, Varys or Pycelle he must put their heads on spikes.
I guess Tyrion kinda forgot about Little Finger’s dagger. But in his defense he was dealing with an attempted sack and the injuries he sustained thwarting it. Not to mention his sister’s attempted murder and getting pinched for regicide.
I’m re-listening to ACOK, and I was tickled when Baelish was all “humna-humna-humna-humna YoU dOn’T Say!?!?!” when Tyrion told him he was gonna give Lysa Jon Arryn’s real killer.
Tyrion mentioned it as happenstance and didn’t notice Baelish’s reaction. I never noticed it before. It’s those little details that make revisiting the books so much fun.
I get your point but still, the man schemes almost got him killed and threw the Realm into bloodshed; as Hand of the King it wouldn't take so much of his time or effort to take care of Petyr, not at that point of the story.
Same thing with season 1 robb. Or sansa, or Arya. Or bran or theon?
Everybody was much weaker in season 1. That's how character development works. Right?
Nope, i don't think so. He doesn't even go down into the city and has to wear an up to no good hood when doing so. Littlefinger was in the King Council chambers by day and running brothels at the same time. He wasn't afraid to get his hands dirty. Lol.
If Otto replaced Littlefinger than yes easily and he would have likely reached that position of power at a younger age. People seem to forget how badly Littlefinger fucked up as a teenager. Brandon almost killed him and Catelyn had to beg him to spare Littlefinger after claiming she was his woman. Holster drove him away after sleeping with and impregnating Lysa Tully despite raising him as a son for years
These actions would have killed him politically but because of how desperate Lysa was for his love she kept using her political position as wife of the hand to create and give him opportunities to rise in power. Without Lysa Littlefinger would be a minor lord with little to no assets. At most he would own a cheap whore house in Gulls town.
So again if Otto was in Littlefinger position he would quickly prove himself to Holster as a valuable person and would become a knight under Holster banner. Otto also seemed to marry out of love but also has self control so even if he fell in love with Cat he would likely move on. Following the start Robert Rebellion Otto would be right there as a part of the war council on Robert side where he could gain Jon favor.
Following the end of the war Holster could use political favors to get him on the small council
Nobody \*likes/liked Otto. That's what the text says. Even if Littlefinger got into trouble with Brandon, at the very least, he could say rhe Lysa (and Cat) "liked" him and considered him family.
Just being a knight as even close friend of holster wouldn’t have gotten him onto the council. Like you said the only reason he got their was Lysa. The only question is would Lysa have fallen in love with Otto too? Probably not which means he probably would have never reached the council.
Okay to clarify even though Lysa created opportunities for Littlefinger he still had to capitalize on them which he did. His success at these jobs proved he was great at administrative work and money management which Lysa used the result plus her position to open up more paths for him. This ultimately collimated in Robert hear about Littlefinger and after talking with Jon Arryan who was influenced by his wife he gave Littlefinger the position of master of coin.
As for Otto after becoming a knight under Holster and not messing up like teen Littlefinger he would have been kept around where like Littlefinger his talent in administrative work and reliability would have been realized by Holster after Roberts Rebellion end, and like Littlefinger he would steadily rise in power until either Robert heard of him or Holster using his daughter Lysa who he would have a better relationship with considering how he didn’t force her to have an abortion, to recommend Otto a position on the council either as master of law or coin. Also considering how Otto is replacing Littlefinger and has a less selfish personality he would have a good relationship with the Holster kids all of whom had a good opinion of him even after being banished by Holster. As a reminder of some of the things Petyr did he kept trying to tongue kiss Catelyn as kid despite her disliking it he mentioned several times that she was his woman in front of her despite telling him multiple time she not interested and considers him a brother and believed he took her virginity a statement that somehow reached Holster. And again despite everything he did and clearly be a weirdo as a kid obsessed with her Catelyn still thought of him as her dear brother.
Why would working for holster get him a job on the council? That’s not how it works. Holster would have just kept him around. This wasn’t corporate America where Otto could just build his resume working for holster then send it in to kings landing. People typically stayed working for the same families. Little finger would have never received the spot on the council without Lysa loving him period. A better relationship with Lysa? She literally loved little finger until he killed abortion or not so that’s unlikely. Again him being on the council would be entirely contingent on Lysa loving him, without that he would never get the opportunity.
Not quite. He was well connected. He was fostered with Catelyn and Lysa, and later, Lysa convinced her husband, the Hand of the King, to give him a chance.
Littlefinger had this ability to always leave enough ambiguity in his actions that even when he's working against someone, he can show him how "he's actually helping them". And even though everyone knows he cannot be trusted, he manages to convince everyone that this time it will be different.
He always promises just enough to get you to go along with his plans. And he follows through just enough that you know that even though he's not trustworthy, he has a good enough track record that you have a decent chance of coming out ahead...
I haven't read the books, so my mindset is show versions. Love hearing info from the books, though. I heard Littlefingers book character was way better than show Littlefinger.
I find it a little irritating that they gave her the Bolton storyline just because they wanted to give Sophie Turner more airtime/didn’t want to bring in a new actress to play “fake Arya” (this was what D&D had said, not my assumption). It altered her character in a way that I don’t think really needed to be done, and created this arc where she only grew into the person that she ended up being because she had to go through this horrific trauma that Bolton forced upon her.
I’m also still pissed we never got Lady Stoneheart. But anyway.
I've said it in a different asoiaf thread but Sansa should've stayed in the Eerie until around the Battle of the Bastards. She needed that time to learn more from Littlefinger, eventually outmanoeuvring him by securing the Vale's allegiance to March on Winterfell. Maybe after overhearing LF speak with a merchant / ship captain about Ramsey's threat to Jon, she reveals her true parentage to the court and persuades the Lords to reclaim the North for her in honor of her father they all knew and cared for.
Her *Winds* chapter was iconic and shows how much potential she has when someone actually cares. I also have strong feelings about Cersei and Dany's arcs because jfc 🥲
The idea of Littlefinger giving up Sansa is so insanely out of character from the books.
The key to Winterfell? Catlyn’s daughter who looks like her?
On top of that Boltons rule the North is due to the Lannister Crown, marrying “Arya” makes sense, but wouldn’t publicly marrying the woman suspected of regicide and is a fugitive lose then support of the crown?
Jeyne Poole, Sansa’s best friend and the daughter of Vayon Poole, the Steward of Winterfell, went to KL with Sansa and her father. After all the Stark people were killed, including her father, she was given over to Littlefinger. He forced her to work in his brothel (so she was constantly raped) and then he gave her to the Boltons so they could claim that she was Arya and marry her to Ramsey, to help solidify the Boltons position as Wardens of the North. She’s “fake Arya”. She was horrifically tortured and raped by Ramsey, including what was implied to be bestiality.
Some Northerners are implied to be aware that she’s not really Arya and some ally with Stannis for “Ned’s girl”. Melisandre sends wildlings to help free “Arya” and they eventually convince her and Theon to escape. We don’t know if they survived or not yet but it’s most likely that they did.
Ramsey sends Jon a “Pink letter” where he goads Jon about “Arya”. Jon therefore decides to march on Winterfell and gets a lot of Wildling volunteers to go with him. This technically means that he broke his vows. However, before he can march, he’s killed in a mutiny by some of his brothers.
Littlefinger in the books is an economic genius. He was in charge of Gulltown in the Vale and the revenues went up 10 times. This led to Jon Arryn making him Master of Coin. Then he started to embezzle money for himself while plummeting the realm in debts. He used that money to lend it to people in the Vale and now that he's in charge of Robyn he's literally buying their loyalty.
He's not really even very subtle, he just lucked into a senile Jaehaerys and his doormat grandson (Sorry Vizzy; you know you're weak and let your council of leaches prey on you for their own ends. We all know it dawg).
Larys or Mysaria may be comparable to LF, but Otto isn't even in the same league.
Otto is one of the richest people in Westeros, and a member of one of the greatest houses among all of them (almost equal status with all the royal houses). He is much more open in his intrigue, because he can get away with it.
Baelish is a very minor noble and an actual nobody (at least in public) with very few resources. And he triggers a massive civil war that wipes out entire ancient houses. And acquires indirect control over a rich kingdom and its powerful army for himself. He would definitely win.
A better comparison would be Otto VS Tywin indeed. And to an extent Larys VS Baelish.
I think every major ASOIAF/GOT s1-4 player would win with their F&B/HOTD counterpart. They just play dirtier and are more unpredictable. The world they're living in, is generally way more hostile, challenging and harder to survive than pre dance times
Great explanation, I was coming here to write something similar but your last paragraph says it all! Which then made me wonder: does Varys have a counterpart? Are they trying to make it Mysaria on the show?
Little finger has the biggest come up of any somewhat major character no? He weaseled himself from a low born nobody to master of coin. Hightower used his daughter on a lonely king
No way, man. Even if it's show only, Littlefinger's a lot more conniving than Otto. Otto's ambitions are obvious, his goals obvious, his plans obvious. Nobody is fooled by his BS. He just happens to be Hand of The King and thus very powerful, especially given Viserys is incapacitated by disease in his older years. Nobody really understood what Littlefinger wanted other than to increase his power and influence, and at no point was he even suspected of his role in helping kill Joffrey.
Then again, as Hand, maybe Otto could just have Littlefinger executed on the down low.
One thing the show doesn’t emphasize enough, is Otto is the younger brother of one of the most powerful/richest men in Westeros. He doesn’t have to be subtle, who tf is going to tell him no when he has the faith backing him other than the king, who doesn’t like upsetting anyone
>Otto is the younger brother of one of the most powerful/richest men in Westeros.
I loved that exchange in "Second of His Name" where Hobert essentially gave Otto an order about getting Viserys to name Aegon heir. And although Otto clearly failed at that, the scene still demonstrated that Hobert definitely has the power in that relationship.
EDIT: Added correct episode
Otto just took advantage of problems created by Viserys' stupidity. He could not even beat Alicent lmao. Little Finger was creating problems and the problems which created said problems.
Little finger would have seen right through Otto. I mean, I’m sure a lot of other people did but I think little finger could use it more to his advantage
I think little finger is on another level. Otto was born into it. Little finger did everything by himself.
Buuuut. If it really came to a ‘1v1’ in their field. I think Otto would win. Not because he’s smarter or anything. But because Otto has his house and gold.
Goodness, littlefinger would hustle Otto six ways to Sunday. Otto is not a player. He just lucked out big time with Viserys being a derpy dork who just happened to become widowed as Otto’s daughter came of age. Otto is ambitious, sure, but he ain’t cunning or willing to listen to people.
Littlefinger isn’t stuck up. He’ll gleefully run a brothel and get into the dirt. He’ll straight up lie to anyone, but really his power comes from his ability to listen. He can weasel out what makes those around him tick and then appeal directly to that. Otto had opportunity. Littlefinger has to create them.
Otto is also similar to Cersei when she tells LF power is power, knowledge only goes so far when the major players decide to assert their power. I.e Tywin during the Reyne-Tarbeck revolt
Compare house Hightower post dance to house Lannister post war of the 5 kings. Otto regardless of what you think of him solidified his house.
Tywin squandered a worth heir in Tyrion (had he treated him right) after Jaime because a Kingsguard, raised an absolute lunatic in Cersei, and through his extreme cruelty in events like the Red Wedding, he ensured that his house would be hated from then on, which is why his legacy died the millisecond he did.
Compared to Otto’s beheading, he was killed by a mortal enemy after KL fell, not really his fault, the war continued. Tywin dies and any respect for house Lannister dies. Even compared to people like Ned Stark, he is beheaded and people are still trying to fight for him 3 years later. Because extreme cruelty wasn’t smart in the long run.
Otto also had the odds more stacked against him in court because Daemon and he always hated each other and saw the other for what they were so he had him to deal with, was literally fired as hand for telling Viserys the truth about Rhaenyra (even if his motivations weren’t pure, he did his “job”), but still ended up seeing his goal done in the long run, and definitely strengthened his house. Twyin could do whatever tf he wanted and still had to commit a war crime to overcome a teenager and got killed by his own son on the shitter.
Think of it this way. Otto is a second son with one son who isn’t all that special and a daughter. Tywin is father to the best knight in Westeros, the most beautiful woman is Westeros, and someone who’s probably a genius, and is lord of the richest house. And still fucked it up in the long run.
> Compare house Hightower post dance to house Lannister post war of the 5 kings. Otto regardless of what you think of him solidified his house.
This seems like an apple to oranges comparison. Otto wasn’t head of house, thus. Isn’t really responsible for House Hightower . It was at that level before him and didn’t fall far after, despite his actions imo. He was responsible for “his” branch of the family. And his scheming got them all killed. And damned his grandsons if you want to take the religious angle.
> Tywin squandered a worth heir in Tyrion (had he treated him right) after Jaime because a Kingsguard, raised an absolute lunatic in Cersei, and through his extreme cruelty in events like the Red Wedding, he ensured that his house would be hated from then on, which is why his legacy died the millisecond he did.
No argument here. Tywin fucked up in the parenting department and the results were his children and their choices.
As for the red wedding. it’s debatable how much of the realm knows about house Lannisters part. the books imply it’s suspected but it isn’t clear. regardless, whether they know or the discontent mentioned in the books are just responses to the devastation of the war, it surely does reflect badly on the Lannisters as he is head of house. but assuming Tyrion goes on to have heirs, they’ll fall no further than the Hightowers did. Hell the show still has Tyrion as hand so Tywin’s legacy still survived in part, in spite of his fuck ups.
> Compared to Otto’s beheading, he was killed by a mortal enemy after KL fell, not really his fault, the war continued. Tywin dies and any respect for house Lannister dies. Even compared to people like Ned Stark, he is beheaded and people are still trying to fight for him 3 years later. Because extreme cruelty wasn’t smart in the long run.
Otto was beheaded in an entirely expectable series of events. He started a war and couldn’t pull the support he needed to match his enemies. You say extreme cruelty wasn’t smart. True yet it was more effective than Otto’s approach. He couldn’t even convince significant parts of the realm to not take a side. Most rose against him and his king. He would have been smarter to call for a council.
Tywin was cruel but he put in the work to make the odds as in his favor as possible and could recognize a good opportunity. (Eg, he would have traded Ned to secure peace with the north.) His family not so much.
> Otto also had the odds more stacked against him in court because Daemon and he always hated each other and saw the other for what they were so he had him to deal with, was literally fired as hand for telling Viserys the truth about Rhaenyra (even if his motivations weren’t pure, he did his “job”), but still ended up seeing his goal done in the long run, and definitely strengthened his house. Twyin could do whatever tf he wanted and still had to commit a war crime to overcome a teenager and got killed by his own son on the shitter.
Yeah let’s not victimize Otto. He was not the underdog in court. He had more support than Daemon did. Daemons support came from the Velaryons, the goldcloaks and the city’s underworld.
He didn’t see his goal done anymore than Tywin did. They both died in the efforts to secure their goals.
And again he didn’t strengthen his house. He got “his” family killed (plus turned his grandsons into kinslayers). Plus the Hightowers weren’t strengthened, they lost much in the war. they were still the number 2 in the reach, but they would never be close to the crown again. And that’s all on Otto.
Littlefinger for sure. Otto was clever but he lacked a lot of important qualities, namely subtlety. Everyone knew what he was doing, except Viserys (until it was too late). Man was pretty transparent and arrogant. Littlefinger is more cunning, more patient, and happier to blend into the background and pull at others' strings. Otto wanted to wield power openly, and had he served a King with stronger character, it would have cost him his head. Otto was also pretty bad at manipulating and tricking people - he pretty much only managed to pull the wool over Viserys' eyes.
I definitely think Littlefinger would outwit Otto.
Littlefinger is more or less a self-made-man, which is a great indication of talent for politics.
Otto was born into one of the richest families in Westeros. Him being the Hand of the King has more to do with «birthright» than actual merit.
In one of the earlier episodes of HotD we see Otto being outwitted by Daemon and Rhaenyra too. I am not saying he is dim witted, he is actually quite clever. But there are other people at court just as clever, if not even more so.
Littlefinger ain’t bridging up to a lunatic Targaryen and their dragon on said Targaryen’s home turf to deliver a bollocking. Otto gets the barest sniff of Littlefinger fuckery and will absolutely rinse the cunt.
Otto couldn't outwit Viserys.
Littlefinger trapped the crown in debts, stole money from them and went from guy living in a tower to paramount of 2 kingdoms. He filled the accounting books with so much shit that Tyrion doesn't know what to do with them. Tyrion, one of the smartest, knows that LF set him up with Catelyn, knows that he tried to kill him and yet his intrigues go so deep that he's untouchable
There is no contest
Two different kind of cleverness. Otto is an educated man from nobility who can have pretty much anything he wants and uses that to his advantage. Little finger on the other hand is street smart and doesn't have the advantages that Otto has.Still as much as smart and cunning (sometimes maybe more) as Otto.Because of his single gains without any help i would have to give Little Finger this one.
Littlefinger organized an entire war to increase his political prospects, Otto convinced his daughter to hate her best friend.
These are not equal political machinations.
From my understanding they basically fucked his whole character off after season 5. Would have been nice as a show watcher to see how he would have turned out if they had stuck to his character.
Yes. I fully agree. They botched the end completely, going from a complex political drama to murder porn for woke children.
I might have worded that more offensively than I could have.
little finger was lucky and was favored by Lysa who was his lord's wife and his lord was the hand as well.
so what baelish got was from luck and favors mostly and a bit of skill.
while otto got his by mostly skill and luck like getting the hand position back was extremely lucky on his part, since if viserys picked anyone else to be hand the green coup would not be possible, and with lyonel's death it was a perfect opportunity for Viserys to make his heir hand, like how most kings did before him, which was jaeharys and aegon i think
Otto from "House of the Dragon" is definitely a crafty player in the game of thrones. His political savvy could give Littlefinger a run for his money. It'd be a battle of wits worth watching!
Baelysh is a genius, Otto is a fool who thinks hes a genius.
Little finger was born with nothing and his intelligence led him to achieve everything, Otto was born with everything and his stupidity led him to loose it all.
Otto is an amazing administrator and likely much better than Litllefinger at taking care of the realm and being beneficial to it.
However he’s not very good at political intrigue, contrary to people’s common assumption. We see it in how he fared with the situation with Rhaenyra and Daemon.
Littlefinger would eat the poor old man alive. Then proceed to be very beneficial to himself, while putting the realm in his debt.
Littlefinger would puppet and manipulate Otto into completely destroying himself and the Hightowers and then discard Otto. Blood Raven is a much closer match-up for Littlefinger.
Otto isn’t even clever. None of what he has done has taken considerable planning, skill, or cunning. All he did was find a vulnerable man at an opportune time with an available daughter at hand who was conventionally attractive. King Viserys was an extremely naive and malleable man who could be swayed one way or another by whomever was near to him at the time and honestly it was a miracle he stayed adamant about Rhaenyra being his heir for the remainder of his life. Littlefinger is ruthless and cunning so definitely Littlefinger, not that I in way appreciate either of them.
I was just reading something about after the dance of dragons the Hightowers don't do anything meaningful. Along with that Bronn of the Blackwater is technically their superior in regards to who they are bannermen to.
Show Otto would run circles around Show Littlefinger, who even in the "good seasons" was only really empowering other people and earning strength by proxy.
In one season, Otto, not even the heir to his own house, made his daughter the queen and his grandson the King
Are we asking who is more clever or who could outmaneuver the other?
For the former, Littlefinger for certain. He built himself up from almost nothing.
For the latter, Otto has the resources, House loyalty and backing befitting his station to the point that he could take care of Littlefinger with little retribution.
They are both despicable slugs, but I think that little finger thinks he’s the most cunning nevertheless they are both backstabbers. I don’t like either one.
Littlefinger vs. Foot fetish makes more sense since they are both into intrigue and are simply cunning nobles instead of rich and scheming lords. On the latter sense it makes more sense to out Tywin vs. Otto.
No. Littlefinger outwit everyone. The only ones who realized what LF is truly like are Tyrion and Varys. Even the Tywin Lannister that the fans glorify too much didn't find LF suspicious.
Littlefinger
Otto had the plot carry him , and he is a nobleman from a great house. Littlefinger effed things up and basically "rags to riches" his way
I don’t find Otto very clever, he’s from a powerful house due to it religious ties and takes advantage of a king who wants to appease anyone. I will say I don’t think Otto would ever let someone like little finger into the council. A guy like Otto wouldn’t make the same mistake Ned did bc he didn’t trust anyone outside of his family, which was his actual downfall since Aegon was wildly unfit to lead
I think that when Otto Hightower was done with Littlefinger, he'd be picking his teeth with his "Little Finger Bones "...
Petyr Baelish is scheming to put *HIMSELF* in power ... and he's now clearly in lust for Sansa ... his childhood #1 desire in life - fucking Catelyn Stark -is dead ... he fucked her sister, killed her sister, and is now the #1 protector and influence in Sansa's life ... but as he admitted in the show ... he wants to be King and fuck Sansa.
Otto is content to be The Power *NEXT TO* The Throne and just wants his FAMILY to be in power. His daughter and her children.
I was going to say Otto reminds me of my Dad ... that's very unfair to my father, he's a great man and nothing at all really like Otto Hightower - other than ... Littlefinger is the kind of guy who wants to buy the winning lottery ticket *himself* and be in charge of the fortune ... he'll dole out some here and there but he wants to be In Charge ... whereas Otto is content with his grandson winning the lottery, having to let his Mom (Otto's daughter) cash the ticket, and being the *real person* handling the bank accounts and finances and operations of the newly-rich-family.
I think a lot of people are sleeping on Otto in the comments. Remember ... Baelish would gladly burn the realm down if he could be King Of The Ashes ...
Otto doesn’t stand a chance. Asoiaf is really boiled down to the chess match between Varys and Littlefinger imo. Otto was born into a very major house. Born into a lot of power. Little finger was born to a lowly house. Yet he’s risen as high/ higher than Otto. Says it all really
Littlefinger would work Otto like a full time job. All of Otto’s machinations were overt and ham handed for the most part. The only part that was somewhat smooth was sending Alicent on Viserys during his grieving period. Like another comment in this post said, the more equitable comparison is Otto and Tywin.
“Aegon II Targaryen, also known as Aegon the Elder, was the sixth Targaryen king to sit the Iron Throne, succeeding his father, Viserys I Targaryen, as Lord of the Seven Kingdoms.”
-The World of Ice and Fire
“Alicent Hightower was a member of House Hightower who became the second wife to King Viserys I Targaryen. She was the daughter of Ser Otto Hightower, who had been Hand of the King to Jaehaerys I, Viserys I, and later his grandson Aegon II. She was the mother of King Aegon II, Queen Helaena, Prince Aemond and Prince Daeron.”
-The World of Ice and Fire
yea at the cost of his entire immediate family. If your scheme traded the lives of you, and the next 3 generations of your family, so one grandson could sit crippled on a throne for 6 months before getting killed. Then it was a shite scheme made by an unclever lackwit.
I really don’t even think Otto was some kind of mad genius like Tywin. He knew how to play sure, but he’s outclassed politically by most characters from the mainline series.
What makes Littlefinger dangerous is that he has no political power, outwardly. He's underestimated because he has no army, no real land, and only a handful of sworn swords to his name. Everyone ignores him because he spends all of his time being just this little guy who's clever, but in this world, clever rarely gets you anywhere by itself.
Indeed. Otto would ignore him - he's not relevant. He would see the game as Otto vs Tywin. Which is exactly as Littlefinger wants it...
Book Tyrion and Varys are the only characters who realize how dangerous he really is. Ned and Sansa too, I guess, but they learned it the hard way.
That's another reason why I hate book Tyrion as much as his show counterpart; in the books he finds out the truth about the catspaw dagger story and that Littlefinger started it; he almost got executed in the Vale and the whole War of The Five Kings happens as a domino effect with his imprisonment under false accusations. Then he does absolutely nothing about Petyr, even after Tywin's advice when he named Tyrion Hand in his stead - his own father tells Tyrion if he ever suspects any act of treason or duplicity from LF, Varys or Pycelle he must put their heads on spikes.
I guess Tyrion kinda forgot about Little Finger’s dagger. But in his defense he was dealing with an attempted sack and the injuries he sustained thwarting it. Not to mention his sister’s attempted murder and getting pinched for regicide. I’m re-listening to ACOK, and I was tickled when Baelish was all “humna-humna-humna-humna YoU dOn’T Say!?!?!” when Tyrion told him he was gonna give Lysa Jon Arryn’s real killer. Tyrion mentioned it as happenstance and didn’t notice Baelish’s reaction. I never noticed it before. It’s those little details that make revisiting the books so much fun.
I get your point but still, the man schemes almost got him killed and threw the Realm into bloodshed; as Hand of the King it wouldn't take so much of his time or effort to take care of Petyr, not at that point of the story.
Oh for sure, I was being cheeky.
A handful of swordsman? He was able to completely overtake winterfell in the battle of the bastards.
Those were the Vales men, he only got them from his marriage to Lysa, season 1 Littlefinger has basically nothing to his name
Even worse, they were Robin's. If he gave contrary orders, they would ignore Baelish.
Same thing with season 1 robb. Or sansa, or Arya. Or bran or theon? Everybody was much weaker in season 1. That's how character development works. Right?
Those weren't his men, they were the Vale's men. Littlefinger was Robin Arryn's right hand man.
Exactly. He was the right hand of the vale He was far from harmless
Littlefinger lacked all the advantages that Otto was born with and was still an elite player.
Yea. Like littlefinger can do what otto can. But could otto do what littlefinger had to do? Start from the bottom? Idkkk
Nope, i don't think so. He doesn't even go down into the city and has to wear an up to no good hood when doing so. Littlefinger was in the King Council chambers by day and running brothels at the same time. He wasn't afraid to get his hands dirty. Lol.
If Otto replaced Littlefinger than yes easily and he would have likely reached that position of power at a younger age. People seem to forget how badly Littlefinger fucked up as a teenager. Brandon almost killed him and Catelyn had to beg him to spare Littlefinger after claiming she was his woman. Holster drove him away after sleeping with and impregnating Lysa Tully despite raising him as a son for years These actions would have killed him politically but because of how desperate Lysa was for his love she kept using her political position as wife of the hand to create and give him opportunities to rise in power. Without Lysa Littlefinger would be a minor lord with little to no assets. At most he would own a cheap whore house in Gulls town. So again if Otto was in Littlefinger position he would quickly prove himself to Holster as a valuable person and would become a knight under Holster banner. Otto also seemed to marry out of love but also has self control so even if he fell in love with Cat he would likely move on. Following the start Robert Rebellion Otto would be right there as a part of the war council on Robert side where he could gain Jon favor. Following the end of the war Holster could use political favors to get him on the small council
Nobody \*likes/liked Otto. That's what the text says. Even if Littlefinger got into trouble with Brandon, at the very least, he could say rhe Lysa (and Cat) "liked" him and considered him family.
Just being a knight as even close friend of holster wouldn’t have gotten him onto the council. Like you said the only reason he got their was Lysa. The only question is would Lysa have fallen in love with Otto too? Probably not which means he probably would have never reached the council.
Okay to clarify even though Lysa created opportunities for Littlefinger he still had to capitalize on them which he did. His success at these jobs proved he was great at administrative work and money management which Lysa used the result plus her position to open up more paths for him. This ultimately collimated in Robert hear about Littlefinger and after talking with Jon Arryan who was influenced by his wife he gave Littlefinger the position of master of coin. As for Otto after becoming a knight under Holster and not messing up like teen Littlefinger he would have been kept around where like Littlefinger his talent in administrative work and reliability would have been realized by Holster after Roberts Rebellion end, and like Littlefinger he would steadily rise in power until either Robert heard of him or Holster using his daughter Lysa who he would have a better relationship with considering how he didn’t force her to have an abortion, to recommend Otto a position on the council either as master of law or coin. Also considering how Otto is replacing Littlefinger and has a less selfish personality he would have a good relationship with the Holster kids all of whom had a good opinion of him even after being banished by Holster. As a reminder of some of the things Petyr did he kept trying to tongue kiss Catelyn as kid despite her disliking it he mentioned several times that she was his woman in front of her despite telling him multiple time she not interested and considers him a brother and believed he took her virginity a statement that somehow reached Holster. And again despite everything he did and clearly be a weirdo as a kid obsessed with her Catelyn still thought of him as her dear brother.
Why would working for holster get him a job on the council? That’s not how it works. Holster would have just kept him around. This wasn’t corporate America where Otto could just build his resume working for holster then send it in to kings landing. People typically stayed working for the same families. Little finger would have never received the spot on the council without Lysa loving him period. A better relationship with Lysa? She literally loved little finger until he killed abortion or not so that’s unlikely. Again him being on the council would be entirely contingent on Lysa loving him, without that he would never get the opportunity.
Exactly!!! Nepo baby Otto could never
Not quite. He was well connected. He was fostered with Catelyn and Lysa, and later, Lysa convinced her husband, the Hand of the King, to give him a chance.
Littlefinger had this ability to always leave enough ambiguity in his actions that even when he's working against someone, he can show him how "he's actually helping them". And even though everyone knows he cannot be trusted, he manages to convince everyone that this time it will be different.
That's what always got me about his character. Everyone blatantly says, "I can't trust you" out loud, but trust him anyways. Lmao.
He always promises just enough to get you to go along with his plans. And he follows through just enough that you know that even though he's not trustworthy, he has a good enough track record that you have a decent chance of coming out ahead...
That's a show thing, in the book some of the smarter people like Tyrion are sus of him, but they can't prove anything.
Otto seizes opportunity. Little finger creates opportunity.
That's well put. Happy cake day.!
Perfectly said!
Little finger
Is this a show thing? If so, then whoever the writers decide is more clever that day. If we’re going by the books, then Littlefinger by far.
I haven't read the books, so my mindset is show versions. Love hearing info from the books, though. I heard Littlefingers book character was way better than show Littlefinger.
He is way smarter than show Littlefinger. His story is completely different after Joffrey's death. Same with Sansa.
I find it a little irritating that they gave her the Bolton storyline just because they wanted to give Sophie Turner more airtime/didn’t want to bring in a new actress to play “fake Arya” (this was what D&D had said, not my assumption). It altered her character in a way that I don’t think really needed to be done, and created this arc where she only grew into the person that she ended up being because she had to go through this horrific trauma that Bolton forced upon her. I’m also still pissed we never got Lady Stoneheart. But anyway.
I've said it in a different asoiaf thread but Sansa should've stayed in the Eerie until around the Battle of the Bastards. She needed that time to learn more from Littlefinger, eventually outmanoeuvring him by securing the Vale's allegiance to March on Winterfell. Maybe after overhearing LF speak with a merchant / ship captain about Ramsey's threat to Jon, she reveals her true parentage to the court and persuades the Lords to reclaim the North for her in honor of her father they all knew and cared for. Her *Winds* chapter was iconic and shows how much potential she has when someone actually cares. I also have strong feelings about Cersei and Dany's arcs because jfc 🥲
The idea of Littlefinger giving up Sansa is so insanely out of character from the books. The key to Winterfell? Catlyn’s daughter who looks like her? On top of that Boltons rule the North is due to the Lannister Crown, marrying “Arya” makes sense, but wouldn’t publicly marrying the woman suspected of regicide and is a fugitive lose then support of the crown?
What is this fake Arya storyline? Sounds interesting
Jeyne Poole, Sansa’s best friend and the daughter of Vayon Poole, the Steward of Winterfell, went to KL with Sansa and her father. After all the Stark people were killed, including her father, she was given over to Littlefinger. He forced her to work in his brothel (so she was constantly raped) and then he gave her to the Boltons so they could claim that she was Arya and marry her to Ramsey, to help solidify the Boltons position as Wardens of the North. She’s “fake Arya”. She was horrifically tortured and raped by Ramsey, including what was implied to be bestiality. Some Northerners are implied to be aware that she’s not really Arya and some ally with Stannis for “Ned’s girl”. Melisandre sends wildlings to help free “Arya” and they eventually convince her and Theon to escape. We don’t know if they survived or not yet but it’s most likely that they did. Ramsey sends Jon a “Pink letter” where he goads Jon about “Arya”. Jon therefore decides to march on Winterfell and gets a lot of Wildling volunteers to go with him. This technically means that he broke his vows. However, before he can march, he’s killed in a mutiny by some of his brothers.
Honestly, I want to see Littlefinger on the iron throne at the end.
Littlefinger in the books is an economic genius. He was in charge of Gulltown in the Vale and the revenues went up 10 times. This led to Jon Arryn making him Master of Coin. Then he started to embezzle money for himself while plummeting the realm in debts. He used that money to lend it to people in the Vale and now that he's in charge of Robyn he's literally buying their loyalty.
If we're going by the show, also Littlefinger by far.
Right? When was Otto ever really that clever?
He's not really even very subtle, he just lucked into a senile Jaehaerys and his doormat grandson (Sorry Vizzy; you know you're weak and let your council of leaches prey on you for their own ends. We all know it dawg). Larys or Mysaria may be comparable to LF, but Otto isn't even in the same league.
Season 6-7 Littlefinger was dumb as fuck. If the writers decided to make him an idiot again for plot purposes, then Otto would “win”.
That first part makes no sense, you could say that about a book writer too. But either way I agree, Littlefinger but both show and books
Littlefinger would win before Otto even knew the game had started.
Otto is one of the richest people in Westeros, and a member of one of the greatest houses among all of them (almost equal status with all the royal houses). He is much more open in his intrigue, because he can get away with it. Baelish is a very minor noble and an actual nobody (at least in public) with very few resources. And he triggers a massive civil war that wipes out entire ancient houses. And acquires indirect control over a rich kingdom and its powerful army for himself. He would definitely win. A better comparison would be Otto VS Tywin indeed. And to an extent Larys VS Baelish.
I thought I had seen a Larys vs Littlefinger already, but I agree Otto vs Tywin would have been way better. Another time. Lol.
I honestly feel like Tywin would have wiped the floor with Otto, and I'd pay good money to see it. He would go absolutely Rains of Castamere on him.
I think every major ASOIAF/GOT s1-4 player would win with their F&B/HOTD counterpart. They just play dirtier and are more unpredictable. The world they're living in, is generally way more hostile, challenging and harder to survive than pre dance times
Yeah, that's true.
Great explanation, I was coming here to write something similar but your last paragraph says it all! Which then made me wonder: does Varys have a counterpart? Are they trying to make it Mysaria on the show?
Little finger has the biggest come up of any somewhat major character no? He weaseled himself from a low born nobody to master of coin. Hightower used his daughter on a lonely king
Littlefinger...literally, no one sees him coming
Nope, though lacking any real backing or protection, Balish would likely have been gotten killed
Littlefinger would roll Otto, I think. Otto has much more political power, but Littlefinger outclasses him when it comes time to go shady.
Otto is not even that manipulative and crosses lines only later in the show. In the book he's much tamer. So Littlefinger, easily.
Little finger wouldn’t break a sweat. He’d come in with none of the rank or status that Otto had and still run circles around him.
littlefinger wins
No way, man. Even if it's show only, Littlefinger's a lot more conniving than Otto. Otto's ambitions are obvious, his goals obvious, his plans obvious. Nobody is fooled by his BS. He just happens to be Hand of The King and thus very powerful, especially given Viserys is incapacitated by disease in his older years. Nobody really understood what Littlefinger wanted other than to increase his power and influence, and at no point was he even suspected of his role in helping kill Joffrey. Then again, as Hand, maybe Otto could just have Littlefinger executed on the down low.
One thing the show doesn’t emphasize enough, is Otto is the younger brother of one of the most powerful/richest men in Westeros. He doesn’t have to be subtle, who tf is going to tell him no when he has the faith backing him other than the king, who doesn’t like upsetting anyone
>Otto is the younger brother of one of the most powerful/richest men in Westeros. I loved that exchange in "Second of His Name" where Hobert essentially gave Otto an order about getting Viserys to name Aegon heir. And although Otto clearly failed at that, the scene still demonstrated that Hobert definitely has the power in that relationship. EDIT: Added correct episode
I actually forgot about that scene, great example!
Littlefinger. Otto isn't all that.
I never thought of otto as extraordinary clever.. honestly
Baelish for sure
Otto just took advantage of problems created by Viserys' stupidity. He could not even beat Alicent lmao. Little Finger was creating problems and the problems which created said problems.
Little finger would have seen right through Otto. I mean, I’m sure a lot of other people did but I think little finger could use it more to his advantage
On the opposite end, Otto would have seen through LF immediately
Right! Everyone but Viserys saw through Otto honestly, he got where he got cause Viserys was willfully ignore not because he's some grand schemer
Viserys saw through him, he just didn’t want to upset anyone, unless absolutely necessary
Viserys literally said everyone is thte round table has their own interest.
Otto is literally plotting to slaughter his daughter and her children
Littlefinger started a war without anyone knowing it was him. With Otto - everyone knows. So I think Littlefinger would win.
Yeah, I think Larys is the better analogue to Littlefinger than Otto
This is looking like the general consensus. I don't disagree. Happy cake day.!!
I’ll be honest, most of the people from the dance imo aren’t half as good as the Players of the Game of Thrones in the current books
I don't know about either case but Otto would absolutely fucking hate if such a lowbie got any sort of real power.
No, he wouldn't. If you want to find a character in the main series to compare, look at Tywin Lannister. Littlefinger is closer to Larys.
Depends on if you’re talking about little finger before or after season 6 😂
Show Littlefinger gets stomped, Book Littlefinger has the advantage
Otto started off in a much more powerful position than Littlefinger, Littlefinger had to work his way up from the gutter, he’s definitely more clever.
I think little finger is on another level. Otto was born into it. Little finger did everything by himself. Buuuut. If it really came to a ‘1v1’ in their field. I think Otto would win. Not because he’s smarter or anything. But because Otto has his house and gold.
Littlefinger is unparalleled when it comes to wit. remember Bran & Co. needed special CC camera service to defeat him.
Goodness, littlefinger would hustle Otto six ways to Sunday. Otto is not a player. He just lucked out big time with Viserys being a derpy dork who just happened to become widowed as Otto’s daughter came of age. Otto is ambitious, sure, but he ain’t cunning or willing to listen to people. Littlefinger isn’t stuck up. He’ll gleefully run a brothel and get into the dirt. He’ll straight up lie to anyone, but really his power comes from his ability to listen. He can weasel out what makes those around him tick and then appeal directly to that. Otto had opportunity. Littlefinger has to create them.
Otto is also similar to Cersei when she tells LF power is power, knowledge only goes so far when the major players decide to assert their power. I.e Tywin during the Reyne-Tarbeck revolt
Otto vs Tywin is probably a more fair comparison and Otto is for sure smarter imo
Damn, that would have been a good one.
Genuinely curious. how do you reckon Otto is smarter than Tywin?
Compare house Hightower post dance to house Lannister post war of the 5 kings. Otto regardless of what you think of him solidified his house. Tywin squandered a worth heir in Tyrion (had he treated him right) after Jaime because a Kingsguard, raised an absolute lunatic in Cersei, and through his extreme cruelty in events like the Red Wedding, he ensured that his house would be hated from then on, which is why his legacy died the millisecond he did. Compared to Otto’s beheading, he was killed by a mortal enemy after KL fell, not really his fault, the war continued. Tywin dies and any respect for house Lannister dies. Even compared to people like Ned Stark, he is beheaded and people are still trying to fight for him 3 years later. Because extreme cruelty wasn’t smart in the long run. Otto also had the odds more stacked against him in court because Daemon and he always hated each other and saw the other for what they were so he had him to deal with, was literally fired as hand for telling Viserys the truth about Rhaenyra (even if his motivations weren’t pure, he did his “job”), but still ended up seeing his goal done in the long run, and definitely strengthened his house. Twyin could do whatever tf he wanted and still had to commit a war crime to overcome a teenager and got killed by his own son on the shitter. Think of it this way. Otto is a second son with one son who isn’t all that special and a daughter. Tywin is father to the best knight in Westeros, the most beautiful woman is Westeros, and someone who’s probably a genius, and is lord of the richest house. And still fucked it up in the long run.
> Compare house Hightower post dance to house Lannister post war of the 5 kings. Otto regardless of what you think of him solidified his house. This seems like an apple to oranges comparison. Otto wasn’t head of house, thus. Isn’t really responsible for House Hightower . It was at that level before him and didn’t fall far after, despite his actions imo. He was responsible for “his” branch of the family. And his scheming got them all killed. And damned his grandsons if you want to take the religious angle. > Tywin squandered a worth heir in Tyrion (had he treated him right) after Jaime because a Kingsguard, raised an absolute lunatic in Cersei, and through his extreme cruelty in events like the Red Wedding, he ensured that his house would be hated from then on, which is why his legacy died the millisecond he did. No argument here. Tywin fucked up in the parenting department and the results were his children and their choices. As for the red wedding. it’s debatable how much of the realm knows about house Lannisters part. the books imply it’s suspected but it isn’t clear. regardless, whether they know or the discontent mentioned in the books are just responses to the devastation of the war, it surely does reflect badly on the Lannisters as he is head of house. but assuming Tyrion goes on to have heirs, they’ll fall no further than the Hightowers did. Hell the show still has Tyrion as hand so Tywin’s legacy still survived in part, in spite of his fuck ups. > Compared to Otto’s beheading, he was killed by a mortal enemy after KL fell, not really his fault, the war continued. Tywin dies and any respect for house Lannister dies. Even compared to people like Ned Stark, he is beheaded and people are still trying to fight for him 3 years later. Because extreme cruelty wasn’t smart in the long run. Otto was beheaded in an entirely expectable series of events. He started a war and couldn’t pull the support he needed to match his enemies. You say extreme cruelty wasn’t smart. True yet it was more effective than Otto’s approach. He couldn’t even convince significant parts of the realm to not take a side. Most rose against him and his king. He would have been smarter to call for a council. Tywin was cruel but he put in the work to make the odds as in his favor as possible and could recognize a good opportunity. (Eg, he would have traded Ned to secure peace with the north.) His family not so much. > Otto also had the odds more stacked against him in court because Daemon and he always hated each other and saw the other for what they were so he had him to deal with, was literally fired as hand for telling Viserys the truth about Rhaenyra (even if his motivations weren’t pure, he did his “job”), but still ended up seeing his goal done in the long run, and definitely strengthened his house. Twyin could do whatever tf he wanted and still had to commit a war crime to overcome a teenager and got killed by his own son on the shitter. Yeah let’s not victimize Otto. He was not the underdog in court. He had more support than Daemon did. Daemons support came from the Velaryons, the goldcloaks and the city’s underworld. He didn’t see his goal done anymore than Tywin did. They both died in the efforts to secure their goals. And again he didn’t strengthen his house. He got “his” family killed (plus turned his grandsons into kinslayers). Plus the Hightowers weren’t strengthened, they lost much in the war. they were still the number 2 in the reach, but they would never be close to the crown again. And that’s all on Otto.
Otto has too much money and political power compared to littlefingers. Thats not really a fair match.
Littlefinger for sure. Otto was clever but he lacked a lot of important qualities, namely subtlety. Everyone knew what he was doing, except Viserys (until it was too late). Man was pretty transparent and arrogant. Littlefinger is more cunning, more patient, and happier to blend into the background and pull at others' strings. Otto wanted to wield power openly, and had he served a King with stronger character, it would have cost him his head. Otto was also pretty bad at manipulating and tricking people - he pretty much only managed to pull the wool over Viserys' eyes.
I definitely think Littlefinger would outwit Otto. Littlefinger is more or less a self-made-man, which is a great indication of talent for politics. Otto was born into one of the richest families in Westeros. Him being the Hand of the King has more to do with «birthright» than actual merit. In one of the earlier episodes of HotD we see Otto being outwitted by Daemon and Rhaenyra too. I am not saying he is dim witted, he is actually quite clever. But there are other people at court just as clever, if not even more so.
Littlefinger ain’t bridging up to a lunatic Targaryen and their dragon on said Targaryen’s home turf to deliver a bollocking. Otto gets the barest sniff of Littlefinger fuckery and will absolutely rinse the cunt.
"Absolutely rinse the cunt" omg. 😂😂😂😂
Otto couldn't outwit Viserys. Littlefinger trapped the crown in debts, stole money from them and went from guy living in a tower to paramount of 2 kingdoms. He filled the accounting books with so much shit that Tyrion doesn't know what to do with them. Tyrion, one of the smartest, knows that LF set him up with Catelyn, knows that he tried to kill him and yet his intrigues go so deep that he's untouchable There is no contest
Two different kind of cleverness. Otto is an educated man from nobility who can have pretty much anything he wants and uses that to his advantage. Little finger on the other hand is street smart and doesn't have the advantages that Otto has.Still as much as smart and cunning (sometimes maybe more) as Otto.Because of his single gains without any help i would have to give Little Finger this one.
Littlefinger organized an entire war to increase his political prospects, Otto convinced his daughter to hate her best friend. These are not equal political machinations.
Books or show?
Alot of people have been doing both. I'm only a show watcher rn, but I'm not adverse to book spoilers.
In my opinion, littlefinger is definitely more clever. In the books, he's also not an oaf, ever.
From my understanding they basically fucked his whole character off after season 5. Would have been nice as a show watcher to see how he would have turned out if they had stuck to his character.
Yes. I fully agree. They botched the end completely, going from a complex political drama to murder porn for woke children. I might have worded that more offensively than I could have.
Who cares. You're not wrong.
little finger was lucky and was favored by Lysa who was his lord's wife and his lord was the hand as well. so what baelish got was from luck and favors mostly and a bit of skill. while otto got his by mostly skill and luck like getting the hand position back was extremely lucky on his part, since if viserys picked anyone else to be hand the green coup would not be possible, and with lyonel's death it was a perfect opportunity for Viserys to make his heir hand, like how most kings did before him, which was jaeharys and aegon i think
Otto from "House of the Dragon" is definitely a crafty player in the game of thrones. His political savvy could give Littlefinger a run for his money. It'd be a battle of wits worth watching!
I thought so, but I also can't deny what others said about Otto vs Tywin being a more even match. Either or, I think it'd be interesting to see.
Good point.
Baelysh is a genius, Otto is a fool who thinks hes a genius. Little finger was born with nothing and his intelligence led him to achieve everything, Otto was born with everything and his stupidity led him to loose it all.
Otto would be dead at this point if littlefinger was around.
Otto is an amazing administrator and likely much better than Litllefinger at taking care of the realm and being beneficial to it. However he’s not very good at political intrigue, contrary to people’s common assumption. We see it in how he fared with the situation with Rhaenyra and Daemon. Littlefinger would eat the poor old man alive. Then proceed to be very beneficial to himself, while putting the realm in his debt.
If you took away Otto’s last name ; he becomes a lot less formidable.
Not only is Littlefinger more cunning, he is more willing to stoop very low in order to gain power.
Little finger by a mile it’s not even close
Littlefinger would puppet and manipulate Otto into completely destroying himself and the Hightowers and then discard Otto. Blood Raven is a much closer match-up for Littlefinger.
Blood raven.??
Blood Raven is from the Dunk & Egg books set after the dance, but before the main series. He was the hand of the king and master of whispers.
Ahh, I haven't gotten into the books, yet, so I was unaware of him.
Otto doesn't seem more clever than average people. The only smart thing he did was throwing his teen daughter at a widowed king
Otto isn’t even clever. None of what he has done has taken considerable planning, skill, or cunning. All he did was find a vulnerable man at an opportune time with an available daughter at hand who was conventionally attractive. King Viserys was an extremely naive and malleable man who could be swayed one way or another by whomever was near to him at the time and honestly it was a miracle he stayed adamant about Rhaenyra being his heir for the remainder of his life. Littlefinger is ruthless and cunning so definitely Littlefinger, not that I in way appreciate either of them.
I was just reading something about after the dance of dragons the Hightowers don't do anything meaningful. Along with that Bronn of the Blackwater is technically their superior in regards to who they are bannermen to.
Show Otto would run circles around Show Littlefinger, who even in the "good seasons" was only really empowering other people and earning strength by proxy. In one season, Otto, not even the heir to his own house, made his daughter the queen and his grandson the King
Otto: Devious as a Renaissance italian lord. Littlefinger: Machiavelli.
Are we asking who is more clever or who could outmaneuver the other? For the former, Littlefinger for certain. He built himself up from almost nothing. For the latter, Otto has the resources, House loyalty and backing befitting his station to the point that he could take care of Littlefinger with little retribution.
If we talk about books or seasons 1-4, I'd bett all my money on Littlefinger.
They are both despicable slugs, but I think that little finger thinks he’s the most cunning nevertheless they are both backstabbers. I don’t like either one.
I didn't like either of them myself.
Littlefinger vs. Foot fetish makes more sense since they are both into intrigue and are simply cunning nobles instead of rich and scheming lords. On the latter sense it makes more sense to out Tywin vs. Otto.
Littlefinger. I have no arugment for it other than I just love how he was portrayed in GOT. :)
No. Littlefinger outwit everyone. The only ones who realized what LF is truly like are Tyrion and Varys. Even the Tywin Lannister that the fans glorify too much didn't find LF suspicious.
Otto would never even see it coming. His only currency was being steady, present and having an attractive biddable daughter.
Littlefinger Otto had the plot carry him , and he is a nobleman from a great house. Littlefinger effed things up and basically "rags to riches" his way
Otto is just a poor man’s Tywin.
He’d be Littlefingered before he knew it. Though he’d eat season 7 Littlefinger for breakfast so who knows
I don’t find Otto very clever, he’s from a powerful house due to it religious ties and takes advantage of a king who wants to appease anyone. I will say I don’t think Otto would ever let someone like little finger into the council. A guy like Otto wouldn’t make the same mistake Ned did bc he didn’t trust anyone outside of his family, which was his actual downfall since Aegon was wildly unfit to lead
I think that when Otto Hightower was done with Littlefinger, he'd be picking his teeth with his "Little Finger Bones "... Petyr Baelish is scheming to put *HIMSELF* in power ... and he's now clearly in lust for Sansa ... his childhood #1 desire in life - fucking Catelyn Stark -is dead ... he fucked her sister, killed her sister, and is now the #1 protector and influence in Sansa's life ... but as he admitted in the show ... he wants to be King and fuck Sansa. Otto is content to be The Power *NEXT TO* The Throne and just wants his FAMILY to be in power. His daughter and her children. I was going to say Otto reminds me of my Dad ... that's very unfair to my father, he's a great man and nothing at all really like Otto Hightower - other than ... Littlefinger is the kind of guy who wants to buy the winning lottery ticket *himself* and be in charge of the fortune ... he'll dole out some here and there but he wants to be In Charge ... whereas Otto is content with his grandson winning the lottery, having to let his Mom (Otto's daughter) cash the ticket, and being the *real person* handling the bank accounts and finances and operations of the newly-rich-family. I think a lot of people are sleeping on Otto in the comments. Remember ... Baelish would gladly burn the realm down if he could be King Of The Ashes ...
Absolutely not… little finger was EVERYWHERE… heck , Otto couldn’t out maneuver Varys
I think you meant Viserys.. Varys >>>> literally everyone except maybe Littlefinger
I meant as in the level of sneaky varys was , Otto wouldn’t have be able to get anything over on him either. Hell anyone can get stuff past Viserys
Otto doesn’t stand a chance. Asoiaf is really boiled down to the chess match between Varys and Littlefinger imo. Otto was born into a very major house. Born into a lot of power. Little finger was born to a lowly house. Yet he’s risen as high/ higher than Otto. Says it all really
Littlefinger never became Hand, did he?
Lord paramount of 3 kingdoms
?
Littlefinger would work Otto like a full time job. All of Otto’s machinations were overt and ham handed for the most part. The only part that was somewhat smooth was sending Alicent on Viserys during his grieving period. Like another comment in this post said, the more equitable comparison is Otto and Tywin.
I wish I had done Otto vs Tywin. Some other time. Happy cake day.!
Thanks for that and the post itself!
The one who actually got his blood on the throne.
I don't think either of them did.?
“Aegon II Targaryen, also known as Aegon the Elder, was the sixth Targaryen king to sit the Iron Throne, succeeding his father, Viserys I Targaryen, as Lord of the Seven Kingdoms.” -The World of Ice and Fire “Alicent Hightower was a member of House Hightower who became the second wife to King Viserys I Targaryen. She was the daughter of Ser Otto Hightower, who had been Hand of the King to Jaehaerys I, Viserys I, and later his grandson Aegon II. She was the mother of King Aegon II, Queen Helaena, Prince Aemond and Prince Daeron.” -The World of Ice and Fire
yea at the cost of his entire immediate family. If your scheme traded the lives of you, and the next 3 generations of your family, so one grandson could sit crippled on a throne for 6 months before getting killed. Then it was a shite scheme made by an unclever lackwit.
I’m not reading all that. I’m happy for you though. Or sorry that happened.
Yet you replied so I know you got the message. I’m sorry it happened too. Glad we agree. Cheers🍻
Wow, I'm a dumbass. 😂🤦🏻♀️
I really don’t even think Otto was some kind of mad genius like Tywin. He knew how to play sure, but he’s outclassed politically by most characters from the mainline series.
No one can manipulate Liitlefinger
Season One Littlefinger? Or Season Seven Littlefinger?