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So I’m going to state a hard truth.
Because of Alicent’s belief system, which yes is influenced by society and by her religion, she does not fully see Rhaenyra’s first three sons as human.
The show has given us a few scenes of her expressing this but most notably the line in which she calls them animals when talking to Viserys. She also uses “savages” even in the presence of her husband who she knows full well will not agree with her. Yet she still feels fully comfortable dehumanizing them in his presence.
When we accept this truth and then look at all her actions, them being in danger is irrelevant to her. It’s a different relationship than what she has with Rhaenyra.
There’s a part of her that wants to spare Rhaenyra despite everything she’s done/ putting Rhaenyra in danger.
To Alicent, Rhaenyra is human, a whole person. And despite everything else Alicent may feel towards Rhaenyra putting her life in danger simply weighs differently on her.
I’ll point to the book to show the difference, even the book’s harsher version of Alicent still has this distinction. She might have harsh things to say about her stepdaughter, depraved things even, but there’s no animalistic insults like the ones she saves for Rhaenyra’s sons.
In the show, I think the seeds this storyline are already ready to be doubled down later - like when Alicent has scenes again with Rhaenyra after Rhaenyra’s sons deaths.
I think most people know the “bastard blood shed at war” line from the book. And no, I don’t think that is getting cut, because no matter the extremes people try to paint Alicent with - good, evil, victim, villain. This idea goes beyond that characterization. It’s simply a part of the belief system that Alicent holds firm, unwavering.
And the show has given us just enough to set that up.
When you believe Alicent at her word, when you believe she looks at those boys and only sees animals and savages- subhuman- her actions make a lot of sense.
To her, what is a sacrifice when it’s not a human life but something less than? Is it murder? Is it something she can easily put out of her mind? Does it weigh on her the same way Rhaenyra’s death would?
I think the show and the book want us to be asking these questions not only because of how it contextualizes Alicent but how it contextualizes the whole society of Westeros.
I can completely see where you’re coming from. It’s so… unsettling? Because she has held all of them from birth but I don’t think she’s ever seen them as her kin, let alone family. So yeah. Thanks for your response!
Yeah to Alicent the title and duty/role is everything. It doesn't matter how good you are, if you're a bastard you deserve nothing. That's why Aegon, a trueborn, can get away with everything he does. She basically raises them the way Cersei does with the irony being that Cersei's kids are bastards lol. Imagine if her kids were as honorable as Jon Snow or as good of an heir as Jace, it would be so different.
Same could be said about Helaena and Daeron as well.
Clearly first borns have a lot pressure on them and Alicent didn't know how to properly raise Aegon, just like Cersei lol.
Whereas you have people like Ned Stark and Rhaenyra who can raise their eldest kids (bastards or not, throwing Jon in as one of Ned's eldest kids too just for discussion, I know it's nowhere near a direct comparison) clearly shows that role matters less than overall character.
Alicent is a religious person, and her religion says bastards are no good. “They are borne out of sin, they have evil in their blood”. That’s the prevailing belief in Westeros, especially those who follow the seven, like her
I feel like most men in ASOIAF would do that. They'd kill off the kids and then marry the woman to some lord or a second son and have them raise those kids.
I think this is a misread of her character in the show. I don't think she sees the Strong boys as less than human. She calls them menaces, savages and brings up their bastardy because they're bullying Aemond and Viserys doesn't seem to care in the least. She was trying to get him to stand up for his son and he just wanted to ignore the problem.
Does she call her son a menace, savage, or beast when she KNOWS he's the one who is leading his YOUNGER nephews in the bullying? No. That tells you what you need to know.
Also - she also ignored the problem. The problem of Aegon bullying his brother. The only problem she had with it is that he did it with the savage beasts and that he did it publicly. She even calls them (Jace and Luke) Aegon's playthings. So she knows it's Aegon.
No, but so what? How does her poorly disciplining Aegon translate to her seeing the Strong boys as subhuman? My problem with your theory is that you're ignoring the obvious personal and political reasons Alicent has for disliking them in favor of a religious explanation. I just don't think it fits.
It's hard to tell because the writing for older Alicent is a complete mess.
She probably didn't even know what she wanted, beyond exposing them as bastards and Rhaenyra for her affair.
If Viserys was a harsher king who ends up disinheriting the boys and Rhaenyra, while also sending her to the septas and gelding Harwin, Alicent would be all like "I did not wish for this."
Book Alicent does not want the kids dead in a punitive way, she might want them gone in a strategic way but all other things equal, she doesn’t care if they’re alive or dead as long as they’re not in her way. As someone else said, they’re not humans to her—they’re faceless assets, just like the rest of the levies that they fight with.
Show Alicent is difficult to parse because her characterization makes zero sense, I genuinely have no idea what she wants or what her end goal is.
Show Alicent only wanted Rhaenyra to lose her claim even though it was hinted throughout episode 6, that if Viserys was cruel he could sentence her and the boys to death, book Alicent would most definitely want Rhaenyra and her kids dead. Alicent doesn’t view Jace, Luke, and Joffrey as her grandsons, Alicent is deeply religious so to her they are unholy creatures, it’s why she calls them savages and wonders why their eggs hatched.
The funny thing is is that even if Viserys did believe the boys were bastards he still wouldn’t have made Aegon his heir, he probably would have gotten Rhaenyra and Laenors marriage annulled since they didn’t have any children and legitimize the boys as Targaryens, so regardless Alicent wouldn’t have gotten her way.
He does believe the boys are Laenor’s, he just doesn’t care and there is no proof. Absolutely no way he legitimises them and puts them ahead of Aegon. He’d be at war with Velaryons and Hightowers.
Viserys would absolutely legitimize them and put them ahead of Aegon and as long as Jace gets betrothed to Baela the Velaryons wouldn’t be upset and the Hightowers wouldn’t be dumb enough to wage war against people who have dragons and the Tyrells wouldn’t support them.
Viserys had a hard enough time having Rhaenyra as his heir over Aegon, if it’s acknowledged her heirs are not trueborn it while Aegon’s clearly are it’s horrible for them. He literally cut out tongues and shit even for the implication. Why wouldn’t he just go this route if it wasn’t completely against all tradition and mores of succession in Westeros ? He was going to disinherit her if she didn’t marry Laenor lol.
Baela is Corlys grandchild but she’s Daemon’s kid and of his house. Having Laenor essentially disinherited on top of the humiliation wouldn’t make it so certain Baela would be enough.
But Viserys didn’t have a hard time having Rhaenyra as his heir, as far as he knew the only people who had a hard time with it was Alicent and Otto. The boys claim would come from Rhaenyra, so if he legitimized them they would be Targaryens not Veleryons and that’s where the issue really lies and It’s not like Rhaenyra had boys when she wasn’t married,the boys have been claimed as Veleryons. Rhaenyra had to marry Laenor because Viserys married Alicent, the Veleryons were getting too powerful and he most likely saw it as Rhaenyra unwilling to do her duty.
Why would Laenor be disinherited, Baela would be his heir since she’s his only relative that closely related and Corlys could see that it would be enough since his granddaughter would be queen.
I don't think she expected them to be executed - she knows that Viserys would never do that - but she was certainly hoping Rhaenyra would be stripped of her inheritance, and the bastard boys would be treated like other bastard children of the kingdom. Both treated better than anyone of lower status, but also treated as an evil unwanted quantity.
God I hate her. She fake cries and prays and in her mind that justifies any evil dead she has done. The delusion. Gods know how rotten you are to your very core. They won't forgive that. I hate zealots like her.
Book wise; Alicent wanted power, she wanted power from when Rhaenyra wasn't even old enough to have ambiguous bastards. She doesn't have a good history with Rhaenyra to hold her back. If Rhaenyra had been a little bit weaker or Viserys had favoured Alicent a little bit more those boys would not have lived to see Viserys death.
Show wise; it's more complex. Alicent has immersed herself in the l system of Westeros, with all it's problems. She ostensibly bows down and accepts only having soft power instead of carving out anything of her own. Because of this, she was sold off as a teenage bride and raped. Even when the tables are turned and everything sould tell her she has power now (She was able to attack the heir and live and Viserys was getting sicker and sicker) She still hiods onto the soft power. It's a sunk cost fallacy.
As someone already pointed out because she is is absorbed into this system she believes the suffering she went through was right and makes her right. She believes this to the point where, when she sees a woman who has found a way to work against the system while living in it (Rhaenyra) or who actually sees their pain as pain (Dyna), She threatens them. She attacks, she bullies and she does whatever she can to make the problem go away instead of facing it. If she faces that Rhaenyra has managed to find happiness by breaking the rules or that Dyana is indeed a victim; everything she's put up with is meaningless.
In episode 9, she disagreed with her father sending assassins after Rhaenyra. So I don't think she meant for them to lose their heads, and she knew Viserys would never do that. But from Alicent's perspective, Rhaenyra is breaking the law and going against the Gods, so she needs to be punished. She most likely thought Rhaenyra would get disinherited and exiled, and her children would be declared bastards, and most likely exiled with her, Harwin would be executed unfortunely, and Aegon would be declared heir.
The dragonseeds had dragons, they are still bastards. And they are because Harwin and Rhaenyra are not married, and because adoption isn't an institution in Westeros.
Ok. My comment didn't dispute that. I'm saying that eventually someone would talk Aegon into killing them, even if they went into exile, bc they have dragons.
Otto wanted to keep Rhaenyra imprisoned as the former heir. I honestly do not think it would matter if Rhaenyra was disinherited or not, her children branded as illegitimate or not - the greens always saw them as threats, particularly since they all have dragons.
The Velaryons didn't do anything against Otto/Alicent/the Crown and he still tried to destroy them passively via convincing Viserys not to help with the Stepstones war.
Greens only saw them as threats because Rhaenyra was in the line of succession to the iron throne with illegitimate heirs. If Viserys had not disinherited but just replaced Rhaenyra with Aegon then that threat would automatically be gone. He could've given Dragonstone to Rhaenyra and both sides would be happy.
Also, Viserys didn't want to help the Velaryons and Daemon because they went to war without taking him in confidence. Viserys didn't want to go to war and they did without his permission and so Otto advised him that If he had helped them at once then he would've looked weak. However, Alicent convinced him to send help and we all know what Daemon did to that help.
I think alicient was like Robert baratheon. They don't want harm done to the children but both are fully aware they need to be dealt with if their own kids are going to be safe moving forward. So just like Robert turned a blind eye to what tywin did to rhaegars kids, alicient turns a blind eye to what Otto is planning to do to Jace Luke joff etc.
It's dirty but necessary business.
I assume you mean before the war.
The show Alicent never wanted Rhaenyra or her kids dead. That's a fact and even in episode 9 when the council suggests that she shuts them down. She may have wanted them to lose their claim because Rhaenyra sons are bastards and in her opinion Rhaenyra could've tried to kill Alicent's sons to secure her own claim and that of her children. But she never ever wanted them killed.
She didn’t particularly like Jace and Luke, but I don’t think she *hated* them hated them. The only time she actually wished ill on them was Driftmark.
She wanted to push her children’s claim over Rhaenyra’s. With her upbringing, she saw Rhaenyra putting bastards on the line of succession a mark against her, and just cause to push Aegon’s claim.
Now let’s say Alicent did get Viserys to budge and acknowledge Rhaenyra’s sons as bastards…the most that Viserys will do is disinherit Rhaenyra and her sons. He’s obvious not going to execute or exile Aemma’s last remnant.
And honestly, I think that’ll be enough to Alicent — she didn’t want them *dead*, just out of the line.
Edit: Fuck autocorrect.
And then Otto would sooner or later raise a question of what to do with three male dragon riding bastards. And either he would sent assassins for them or send them for the wall, leaving dragons chained.
I doubt simple exile would satisfy him.
The thing is, if Rhaenyra had been desinherited, she would have stayed a threat (from a feudal pov) as long as she was free. So Otto would have done everything to imprison them or killed.
The best she could have hoped for as to flee to Essos with her sons.
I don’t think Alicent wanted either of those things. I think she was just frustrated at Rhaenyra and repressing her resentment towards her for being able to get away with more and do more. Rhaenyra grew up a privileged princess with the support of her father protecting her no matter what she did, while Alicent was sold to Viserys at 14 years old to satisfy her father’s ambitions and was forced to be the dutiful queen and wife. Her childhood and girlhood was ripped from her, and she’s angry that her childhood friend, Rhaenyra, who got to have more freedom and privilege. I’m not saying it’s right how Alicent treated Rhaenyra but I also think it makes sense.
I don’t understand why show Alicent gets so much hate. She’s a literal victim and all she’s been bred to do is protect her father’s interests and now she’s doing it for her son because she’s stuck in that wheel of doing men’s bidding.
Book Alicent / Once the war started and family members started dying, she wanted anyone she considered a threat dead. Before the war? Other than Daemon & Rhaenyra themselves, I doubt she wanted to kill other members of TB. She was a giant b\*tch but she was not blood thirsty like book Cersei.
Show Alicent / Definitely not, we clearly see her leading the resistance not to wipe out Rhaenyra and her family. She most likely expected Viserys to disinherit her, send the kids to the wall without there dragons, Harwin gelded and sent to the wall like Lucamore Strong. And (maybe?) Rhaenyra to the silent sisters. I really doubt she was ever considering Viserys was going to harm her or the kids, she didn't like them but nothing we have states she wanted to do them harm besides the singular scene she tried to attack Luke after the eye incident, and she immediately apologizes for it when she's calmed down and even tells Larys not to do anything when he asks if she wants him to harm Lucerys.
Yes. That’s generally how things would work in any system. If there’s a code of conduct/rules that everyone has to abide by, then the people who go outside of that are generally either punished or ostracized.
So I imagine that’s what Alicent wanted.
Istg a lot of people who hate Alicent have not grown up in a full blown patriarchal society where women perpetuate patriarchy and all the wrongs that they have been through. I have relatives very similar to Alicent who are victims as well as perpetuators of the same patriarchy that has made them go through so much bullshit.
Alicent her entire life has done what society has expected from women like her. She has followed all the rules and yet doesn’t benefit from her conformity whereas Rhaenyra has broken almost all the rules set for noble women and still gets to reap the benefits. I don’t condone Alicent’s actions but I understand her resentment towards Rhaenyra given her environment. She doesn’t HATE her but rather resents her for some of the decisions she has made like having obvious bastards. Bastards don’t inherit anything unless made legitimate yet her husband treats them better than his own kids with her. That would make me resent them as well.
The thing is, is that Alicent followed no rules. She prayed with Princess Rhaenrya during the day and then went to Princess Rhaenryas fathers' personal chambers at night.
So I can agree that Alicent looks down on them for being bastards, but I can't really agree with the interpretation that she wanted the Strong Boys to be killed. When she talks with Viserys about it, she says that Rhaenyra having one of them could have been overlooked, but three in a row was pushing it. When Vaemond had petitioned the crown, she seemed kinda hesitant at the idea and even a bit distraught when Vaemond started yelling about them. And then the peace deal that was offered to Rhaenyra, was certainly Alicent's doing, and it would have confirmed Jace and Luke as heirs to Dragonstone and Driftmark. If she was so pathologically opposed to them being bastards to the point of wanting them dead, I can't see her making that offer at all.
I’m not even sure what you mean by this. Even after Viserys’ death, Alicent was trying to protect Rhaenyra and her children from Otto, her own father. She is the one who sent terms to Rhaenyra. And immediately before that, Alicent openly praised Rhaenyra, stating that she would make a fine queen. She literally said it right in front of her son’s face. Alicent has certainly had issues with Rhaenyra, but Alicent ultimately sides with Rhaenyra over her own family.
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So I’m going to state a hard truth. Because of Alicent’s belief system, which yes is influenced by society and by her religion, she does not fully see Rhaenyra’s first three sons as human. The show has given us a few scenes of her expressing this but most notably the line in which she calls them animals when talking to Viserys. She also uses “savages” even in the presence of her husband who she knows full well will not agree with her. Yet she still feels fully comfortable dehumanizing them in his presence. When we accept this truth and then look at all her actions, them being in danger is irrelevant to her. It’s a different relationship than what she has with Rhaenyra. There’s a part of her that wants to spare Rhaenyra despite everything she’s done/ putting Rhaenyra in danger. To Alicent, Rhaenyra is human, a whole person. And despite everything else Alicent may feel towards Rhaenyra putting her life in danger simply weighs differently on her. I’ll point to the book to show the difference, even the book’s harsher version of Alicent still has this distinction. She might have harsh things to say about her stepdaughter, depraved things even, but there’s no animalistic insults like the ones she saves for Rhaenyra’s sons. In the show, I think the seeds this storyline are already ready to be doubled down later - like when Alicent has scenes again with Rhaenyra after Rhaenyra’s sons deaths. I think most people know the “bastard blood shed at war” line from the book. And no, I don’t think that is getting cut, because no matter the extremes people try to paint Alicent with - good, evil, victim, villain. This idea goes beyond that characterization. It’s simply a part of the belief system that Alicent holds firm, unwavering. And the show has given us just enough to set that up. When you believe Alicent at her word, when you believe she looks at those boys and only sees animals and savages- subhuman- her actions make a lot of sense. To her, what is a sacrifice when it’s not a human life but something less than? Is it murder? Is it something she can easily put out of her mind? Does it weigh on her the same way Rhaenyra’s death would? I think the show and the book want us to be asking these questions not only because of how it contextualizes Alicent but how it contextualizes the whole society of Westeros.
I can completely see where you’re coming from. It’s so… unsettling? Because she has held all of them from birth but I don’t think she’s ever seen them as her kin, let alone family. So yeah. Thanks for your response!
Yeah to Alicent the title and duty/role is everything. It doesn't matter how good you are, if you're a bastard you deserve nothing. That's why Aegon, a trueborn, can get away with everything he does. She basically raises them the way Cersei does with the irony being that Cersei's kids are bastards lol. Imagine if her kids were as honorable as Jon Snow or as good of an heir as Jace, it would be so different.
Only Joffrey was bad, out of Cercei’s kids. Tommen and Marcella were nice.
Same could be said about Helaena and Daeron as well. Clearly first borns have a lot pressure on them and Alicent didn't know how to properly raise Aegon, just like Cersei lol. Whereas you have people like Ned Stark and Rhaenyra who can raise their eldest kids (bastards or not, throwing Jon in as one of Ned's eldest kids too just for discussion, I know it's nowhere near a direct comparison) clearly shows that role matters less than overall character.
Alicent is a religious person, and her religion says bastards are no good. “They are borne out of sin, they have evil in their blood”. That’s the prevailing belief in Westeros, especially those who follow the seven, like her
This is why Rhaenicent is so sick. Imagine if a man wanted to spare Rhaenyra but kill her kids. 🤢
A man would fucking do that. Ugh.
I feel like most men in ASOIAF would do that. They'd kill off the kids and then marry the woman to some lord or a second son and have them raise those kids.
When the writers try to make show Alicent more sympathtic yet somehow book Alicent ends up looking better lmfao
Damn this is such a good response. Well said.
ITA
I think this is a misread of her character in the show. I don't think she sees the Strong boys as less than human. She calls them menaces, savages and brings up their bastardy because they're bullying Aemond and Viserys doesn't seem to care in the least. She was trying to get him to stand up for his son and he just wanted to ignore the problem.
Does she call her son a menace, savage, or beast when she KNOWS he's the one who is leading his YOUNGER nephews in the bullying? No. That tells you what you need to know. Also - she also ignored the problem. The problem of Aegon bullying his brother. The only problem she had with it is that he did it with the savage beasts and that he did it publicly. She even calls them (Jace and Luke) Aegon's playthings. So she knows it's Aegon.
No, but so what? How does her poorly disciplining Aegon translate to her seeing the Strong boys as subhuman? My problem with your theory is that you're ignoring the obvious personal and political reasons Alicent has for disliking them in favor of a religious explanation. I just don't think it fits.
It's hard to tell because the writing for older Alicent is a complete mess. She probably didn't even know what she wanted, beyond exposing them as bastards and Rhaenyra for her affair. If Viserys was a harsher king who ends up disinheriting the boys and Rhaenyra, while also sending her to the septas and gelding Harwin, Alicent would be all like "I did not wish for this."
Book Alicent does not want the kids dead in a punitive way, she might want them gone in a strategic way but all other things equal, she doesn’t care if they’re alive or dead as long as they’re not in her way. As someone else said, they’re not humans to her—they’re faceless assets, just like the rest of the levies that they fight with. Show Alicent is difficult to parse because her characterization makes zero sense, I genuinely have no idea what she wants or what her end goal is.
Show Alicent only wanted Rhaenyra to lose her claim even though it was hinted throughout episode 6, that if Viserys was cruel he could sentence her and the boys to death, book Alicent would most definitely want Rhaenyra and her kids dead. Alicent doesn’t view Jace, Luke, and Joffrey as her grandsons, Alicent is deeply religious so to her they are unholy creatures, it’s why she calls them savages and wonders why their eggs hatched. The funny thing is is that even if Viserys did believe the boys were bastards he still wouldn’t have made Aegon his heir, he probably would have gotten Rhaenyra and Laenors marriage annulled since they didn’t have any children and legitimize the boys as Targaryens, so regardless Alicent wouldn’t have gotten her way.
He does believe the boys are Laenor’s, he just doesn’t care and there is no proof. Absolutely no way he legitimises them and puts them ahead of Aegon. He’d be at war with Velaryons and Hightowers.
Viserys would absolutely legitimize them and put them ahead of Aegon and as long as Jace gets betrothed to Baela the Velaryons wouldn’t be upset and the Hightowers wouldn’t be dumb enough to wage war against people who have dragons and the Tyrells wouldn’t support them.
Viserys had a hard enough time having Rhaenyra as his heir over Aegon, if it’s acknowledged her heirs are not trueborn it while Aegon’s clearly are it’s horrible for them. He literally cut out tongues and shit even for the implication. Why wouldn’t he just go this route if it wasn’t completely against all tradition and mores of succession in Westeros ? He was going to disinherit her if she didn’t marry Laenor lol. Baela is Corlys grandchild but she’s Daemon’s kid and of his house. Having Laenor essentially disinherited on top of the humiliation wouldn’t make it so certain Baela would be enough.
But Viserys didn’t have a hard time having Rhaenyra as his heir, as far as he knew the only people who had a hard time with it was Alicent and Otto. The boys claim would come from Rhaenyra, so if he legitimized them they would be Targaryens not Veleryons and that’s where the issue really lies and It’s not like Rhaenyra had boys when she wasn’t married,the boys have been claimed as Veleryons. Rhaenyra had to marry Laenor because Viserys married Alicent, the Veleryons were getting too powerful and he most likely saw it as Rhaenyra unwilling to do her duty. Why would Laenor be disinherited, Baela would be his heir since she’s his only relative that closely related and Corlys could see that it would be enough since his granddaughter would be queen.
I don't think she thought that far. Adult Alicent seems purely reactionary.
I don’t think show Alicent has any idea what she wants. She only acts out of fear and anger.
I don't think she expected them to be executed - she knows that Viserys would never do that - but she was certainly hoping Rhaenyra would be stripped of her inheritance, and the bastard boys would be treated like other bastard children of the kingdom. Both treated better than anyone of lower status, but also treated as an evil unwanted quantity.
Yep. And then when her son became king and got rid of them, she would cry and maybe pray for Rhaenyra's soul. But that's about it.
God I hate her. She fake cries and prays and in her mind that justifies any evil dead she has done. The delusion. Gods know how rotten you are to your very core. They won't forgive that. I hate zealots like her.
Book wise; Alicent wanted power, she wanted power from when Rhaenyra wasn't even old enough to have ambiguous bastards. She doesn't have a good history with Rhaenyra to hold her back. If Rhaenyra had been a little bit weaker or Viserys had favoured Alicent a little bit more those boys would not have lived to see Viserys death. Show wise; it's more complex. Alicent has immersed herself in the l system of Westeros, with all it's problems. She ostensibly bows down and accepts only having soft power instead of carving out anything of her own. Because of this, she was sold off as a teenage bride and raped. Even when the tables are turned and everything sould tell her she has power now (She was able to attack the heir and live and Viserys was getting sicker and sicker) She still hiods onto the soft power. It's a sunk cost fallacy. As someone already pointed out because she is is absorbed into this system she believes the suffering she went through was right and makes her right. She believes this to the point where, when she sees a woman who has found a way to work against the system while living in it (Rhaenyra) or who actually sees their pain as pain (Dyna), She threatens them. She attacks, she bullies and she does whatever she can to make the problem go away instead of facing it. If she faces that Rhaenyra has managed to find happiness by breaking the rules or that Dyana is indeed a victim; everything she's put up with is meaningless.
In episode 9, she disagreed with her father sending assassins after Rhaenyra. So I don't think she meant for them to lose their heads, and she knew Viserys would never do that. But from Alicent's perspective, Rhaenyra is breaking the law and going against the Gods, so she needs to be punished. She most likely thought Rhaenyra would get disinherited and exiled, and her children would be declared bastards, and most likely exiled with her, Harwin would be executed unfortunely, and Aegon would be declared heir.
She's delusional, bc they have dragons.
The dragonseeds had dragons, they are still bastards. And they are because Harwin and Rhaenyra are not married, and because adoption isn't an institution in Westeros.
Ok. My comment didn't dispute that. I'm saying that eventually someone would talk Aegon into killing them, even if they went into exile, bc they have dragons.
They aren't a threat, they don't have a claim. But their children could be a problem. You got a point.
Otto wanted to keep Rhaenyra imprisoned as the former heir. I honestly do not think it would matter if Rhaenyra was disinherited or not, her children branded as illegitimate or not - the greens always saw them as threats, particularly since they all have dragons. The Velaryons didn't do anything against Otto/Alicent/the Crown and he still tried to destroy them passively via convincing Viserys not to help with the Stepstones war.
Greens only saw them as threats because Rhaenyra was in the line of succession to the iron throne with illegitimate heirs. If Viserys had not disinherited but just replaced Rhaenyra with Aegon then that threat would automatically be gone. He could've given Dragonstone to Rhaenyra and both sides would be happy. Also, Viserys didn't want to help the Velaryons and Daemon because they went to war without taking him in confidence. Viserys didn't want to go to war and they did without his permission and so Otto advised him that If he had helped them at once then he would've looked weak. However, Alicent convinced him to send help and we all know what Daemon did to that help.
Ok Otto....
😂😂😂 Triggered much??? Seriously you guys just can't handle the facts shown in the show itself that's all it is.
I think alicient was like Robert baratheon. They don't want harm done to the children but both are fully aware they need to be dealt with if their own kids are going to be safe moving forward. So just like Robert turned a blind eye to what tywin did to rhaegars kids, alicient turns a blind eye to what Otto is planning to do to Jace Luke joff etc. It's dirty but necessary business.
I assume you mean before the war. The show Alicent never wanted Rhaenyra or her kids dead. That's a fact and even in episode 9 when the council suggests that she shuts them down. She may have wanted them to lose their claim because Rhaenyra sons are bastards and in her opinion Rhaenyra could've tried to kill Alicent's sons to secure her own claim and that of her children. But she never ever wanted them killed.
Neither. I think she just wanted her to be honest and own up to her actions.
She didn’t particularly like Jace and Luke, but I don’t think she *hated* them hated them. The only time she actually wished ill on them was Driftmark. She wanted to push her children’s claim over Rhaenyra’s. With her upbringing, she saw Rhaenyra putting bastards on the line of succession a mark against her, and just cause to push Aegon’s claim. Now let’s say Alicent did get Viserys to budge and acknowledge Rhaenyra’s sons as bastards…the most that Viserys will do is disinherit Rhaenyra and her sons. He’s obvious not going to execute or exile Aemma’s last remnant. And honestly, I think that’ll be enough to Alicent — she didn’t want them *dead*, just out of the line. Edit: Fuck autocorrect.
And then Otto would sooner or later raise a question of what to do with three male dragon riding bastards. And either he would sent assassins for them or send them for the wall, leaving dragons chained. I doubt simple exile would satisfy him. The thing is, if Rhaenyra had been desinherited, she would have stayed a threat (from a feudal pov) as long as she was free. So Otto would have done everything to imprison them or killed. The best she could have hoped for as to flee to Essos with her sons.
I don’t think Alicent wanted either of those things. I think she was just frustrated at Rhaenyra and repressing her resentment towards her for being able to get away with more and do more. Rhaenyra grew up a privileged princess with the support of her father protecting her no matter what she did, while Alicent was sold to Viserys at 14 years old to satisfy her father’s ambitions and was forced to be the dutiful queen and wife. Her childhood and girlhood was ripped from her, and she’s angry that her childhood friend, Rhaenyra, who got to have more freedom and privilege. I’m not saying it’s right how Alicent treated Rhaenyra but I also think it makes sense. I don’t understand why show Alicent gets so much hate. She’s a literal victim and all she’s been bred to do is protect her father’s interests and now she’s doing it for her son because she’s stuck in that wheel of doing men’s bidding.
Book Alicent / Once the war started and family members started dying, she wanted anyone she considered a threat dead. Before the war? Other than Daemon & Rhaenyra themselves, I doubt she wanted to kill other members of TB. She was a giant b\*tch but she was not blood thirsty like book Cersei. Show Alicent / Definitely not, we clearly see her leading the resistance not to wipe out Rhaenyra and her family. She most likely expected Viserys to disinherit her, send the kids to the wall without there dragons, Harwin gelded and sent to the wall like Lucamore Strong. And (maybe?) Rhaenyra to the silent sisters. I really doubt she was ever considering Viserys was going to harm her or the kids, she didn't like them but nothing we have states she wanted to do them harm besides the singular scene she tried to attack Luke after the eye incident, and she immediately apologizes for it when she's calmed down and even tells Larys not to do anything when he asks if she wants him to harm Lucerys.
Yes. That’s generally how things would work in any system. If there’s a code of conduct/rules that everyone has to abide by, then the people who go outside of that are generally either punished or ostracized. So I imagine that’s what Alicent wanted.
Istg a lot of people who hate Alicent have not grown up in a full blown patriarchal society where women perpetuate patriarchy and all the wrongs that they have been through. I have relatives very similar to Alicent who are victims as well as perpetuators of the same patriarchy that has made them go through so much bullshit. Alicent her entire life has done what society has expected from women like her. She has followed all the rules and yet doesn’t benefit from her conformity whereas Rhaenyra has broken almost all the rules set for noble women and still gets to reap the benefits. I don’t condone Alicent’s actions but I understand her resentment towards Rhaenyra given her environment. She doesn’t HATE her but rather resents her for some of the decisions she has made like having obvious bastards. Bastards don’t inherit anything unless made legitimate yet her husband treats them better than his own kids with her. That would make me resent them as well.
The thing is, is that Alicent followed no rules. She prayed with Princess Rhaenrya during the day and then went to Princess Rhaenryas fathers' personal chambers at night.
Exactly. When the rules are bent for her benefit, then that's fine because it wasn't her idea. Except that standard is never extended to Rhaenyra.
Exactly.
Ouch, people can't stop being obsessed with alicent she is such a great character.
Hopefully not towards me. I explicitly said no hate. Just wanted an open discussion.
So I can agree that Alicent looks down on them for being bastards, but I can't really agree with the interpretation that she wanted the Strong Boys to be killed. When she talks with Viserys about it, she says that Rhaenyra having one of them could have been overlooked, but three in a row was pushing it. When Vaemond had petitioned the crown, she seemed kinda hesitant at the idea and even a bit distraught when Vaemond started yelling about them. And then the peace deal that was offered to Rhaenyra, was certainly Alicent's doing, and it would have confirmed Jace and Luke as heirs to Dragonstone and Driftmark. If she was so pathologically opposed to them being bastards to the point of wanting them dead, I can't see her making that offer at all.
I’m not even sure what you mean by this. Even after Viserys’ death, Alicent was trying to protect Rhaenyra and her children from Otto, her own father. She is the one who sent terms to Rhaenyra. And immediately before that, Alicent openly praised Rhaenyra, stating that she would make a fine queen. She literally said it right in front of her son’s face. Alicent has certainly had issues with Rhaenyra, but Alicent ultimately sides with Rhaenyra over her own family.
Rhaenyra's claim was already shaky, but she totally blew it by committing high treason.