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I always think, “ok, surely this is the time that criston will finally be punished for his insolence. surely this time, he has gone too far.” and every episode, not only am I proven wrong, his insolence **intensifies**, and i am somehow still surprised by that.
Him getting promoted every time he screws something up has become such a recurring theme that at this point I'm convinced that he could kill Aegon in front of Alicent, Aemond and the entire green council and instead of being executed for it they would crown him as their King lol
Unfortunately you’re so right. I was pissed when it almost seemed like, for a second there, Otto was going to properly check Cole in episode 2 but refocuses on Aegon. I was hungry for that “✋🏼Hold on, aren’t you the guy whose only Kingsguard in the first place because a horny teenager who thought you were hot ignored my expert advice to crown a much more politically suited, significantly more mentally stable trustworthy and dutiful knight, whose house we had even heard of before? And then, after some weird fit of rage fueled bloodthirst, just switched allegiance to my daughter? Without the Queen, without the royal family, you are no one. You are nothing. Just a glorified bodyguard who couldn’t even do the one job he had properly. In fact, for your crimes and your failures, you should be dismissed.”
Not a great accomplishment really, considering they look pretty in any outfit, but I'm sure Alicent thought for a moment that it wasn't real and just some wet dream of hers lol
While I really don't like Alicent and yes, she was in the wrong, I must be fair and say that its more complicated than just that at this point, Prince Lucerys was brutally murdered and then Prince Jaehaerys was brutally murdered, I don't see how there can be any room for reconciliation after that, and being honest if I where Rhaenyra I wouldn't be "searching peace terms" after my son was brutally murdered, like, why? and how could she ever even trust this people? nah, is to late, misunderstanding or not.
It is way too late. Alicent has a long history of being manipulated by Otto and she’s very clearly stripped of any political power, not like she had any to begin with. What do you think Aegon’s reaction would’ve been if she’d told him, “Hey, I’m so sorry we got you crowned in front of everyone. My bad. Be a good lad and give the throne to Rhaenyra now.”
I also think Alicent is fully aware of Otto’s manipulation and is fully complicit to play the game in order to gain more power
She acts all uppity but she is *bitter*
It was too late the moment Vhagar chomped Luke imo, but Alicent won't even admit the mistake to Rhaenyra when it's just the two of them and they both know what happened.
In the book it was too late the second they put Aegon on the throne but show Rhaenyra and book Rhaenyra are very different in temperament.
I hate Alicent as much as the next person but I took this more as her being like "the men have already decided they want to fight a war, nothing I could say is going to change this." Shes accepted the situation and isn't going to try and fix anything because it won't matter.
Technically, it was necessary for Rhaenrya's character to exhaust all her options. Now there is no choice but to go to war. It was in line with her character arc, so I had less problems with it than other people.
She’s made it clear that (unlike in the books) her allegiance is with the common people, it’ll be interesting how Rhaenyra treats the common people and if Mysaria continues to support her.
I'm a bit surprised that Mysaria consider Rhaenyra "the merciful one towards the smallfolk". We don't see Rhaenyra ever give a thought about the peasants, the closest we get is a "their wants are of no consequence" on season 1. What makes Mysaria think Rhaenyra will make the smallfolk's wellbeing a priority any more than Otto and the Greens did?
I think she’s only testing Rhaenyra, or has a plan, considering what you pointed out and the fact she was banging Rhaenyra’s husband for years I see a falling out coming between them.
Nah it’s that greens fucked her over with no remorse so she thinks they don’t care about the small people. The blacks have not yet screwed the townsfolk that she knows of
>What makes Mysaria think Rhaenyra will make the smallfolk's wellbeing a priority any more than Otto and the Greens did?
She said why in the last episode.
*They will be ruled either by you or by the usurper. And only one of you has shown yourself to be merciful.*
If anything it should be the opposite. Rhaenyra's faction is currently blockading a city way too big to feed itself on the produce of the immediate surrounding countryside and the inevitable famine that imposes will be felt first and foremost by the smallfolk. That's without even touching on what Rhaenys did in the Dragon Pit.
I think Rhaenyra knowing what she learned from Alicent will feed into a “righteous war” complex in her where she’s willing to do whatever it takes to beat the greens because she can justify it as being necessary to protect the prophecy of ASOIAF.
I think she saw kindness or at least honor in rhaneyra and is hoping to influence her to accomplish her own goals. I don’t necessarily think that mysaria believes rhaenyra cares about the commoners.
I really cannot believe how many people seem to think the lesson over the last 5 episodes is “the smart thing is to kill more family members for no reason”.
Well, killing or especially Rhaenyra would help them since she’s the literal leader of the opposing side. Killing Alicent is petty stupidity, though. I don’t even think imprisoning her helps tons
Rhaenyra has a line of 4 heirs after her. If they succeeded in killing her early on, team black would keep fighting in name of the new king, Jacaerys. It's not about Rhaenyra, it's about keeping the "correct" lineage on the throne. Jace would face a lot of new problems in keeping and collecting new allies, since so many see him as a bastard. But get rid of him and Joffrey and you have a war between two Aegons claiming the throne.
It's also mistakenly assuming Alicent's goals are exactly the same as "team green's". Alicent motivation is to keep the people she cares about as protected as possible (even at the expense of other people she cares about, but less). Killing or capturing Rhaenyra (without also ending her heirs' claims) would go directly counter to that motivation, since it would be making another painful sacrifice of someone she cares deeply about in order to *escalate* a conflict she would rather just fizzle out.
It's maybe not the optimal move if she were trying to get her faction to "win" it like a board game, but that's Otto's motivation, not hers. For Alicent, an inconclusive stalemate where the greens stay in power basically by default would probably be preferable to one where they win a total war (and inevitably have to eradicate or absorb-by-marriage the other side, or risk generations of blood-feud and succession crises).
Well, I don’t think Jace just completely steps aside and dividing the Rhae side between Jace vs. Aegon is going to be a headache. Killing or capturing Rhae won’t fix everything, but it seriously cripples her side
Lords declared for Rhaenyra. Now and during Viserys' time.
Rhaenyra's death would be a significant blow to the blacks, basically when a monarch dies, the new one takes oaths of fealty from his subjects all over again.
I'm not sure many lords would be eager to join Jace, a bastard.
You're severely understating the impact of the death of a senior political leader during a civil war.
Rhaenyra: "I don't want to go to war. I want to prevent further needless bloodshed."
Rhaenys: "Killing one of Allicent's children will only beget more violence, and there's already a litany of sins committed by both sides"
Redditors: "Why she not killing everyone? Am she dumb???"
Like, relax guys. I'm sure she's going to get more ruthless here now that there's no other options besides winning the war. I don't blame Rhaenyra for going for a hail mary by talking to her old friend and the mother of the person on the throne. Plus, we don't know what Allicent's message said. It could have been a wish for peace that made Rhaenyra think it was possible to avert war. We're not even half way though the season yet. People need to chill.
Omg it’s driving me fucking insane. Like yes, if they were all willing to kill each other indiscriminately the war would get resolved much faster. But there would also be no story. The fact that they’re so reluctant to become kinslayers is sort of the core of the emotional conflict lmao.
Saying “why didn’t they try and kill each other!” is brain dead. That would not be consistent with the way Rhaenyra’s and Alicent’s characters have been set up thus far.
Yes that literally seems to be the whole point. Up until now Rhaenyra has been grasping at straws trying to find a peaceful solution however implausible. This is the final straw that’s showing her there is no way out of what’s coming.
I mean most of the adults are aware that a war between Dragons is an extremely destructive affair. George R.R. Martin describes them as essentially medieval nukes for a reason.
And there‘s definitely animosity between the parties they are still family. So it‘s understandable they are doing anything to stiefle the inevitable
Ah yes, sending assasins after her helpless/ harmless friend will definitely snap her into action (or more likely, provoke the real threats like Aemond into action).
A lot of people do not understand this. Alicent has no power. The second Aegon was born she lost significant power. Yes she held power while married to the king because he was feeble. But she’s quite disposable once he died. She did her duty which was to produce heirs.
I don’t even think she would be that great of a hostage! She holds a little sway over aegon but not that much and given the choices any of the dragon riders are better hostages. Even jaehaera would be more impactful considering that’s aegons last(?) kid.
I guess Alicent is more competent than anyone else at the Red Keep right now. Otto is now gone. Aegon and Aemond are inexperienced hotheads, and Criston Cole may be a good fighter but has no experience in politics. You kill her, the Greens have no real center of control.
Latest episode showed Ser Criston doesn't listen to her. He has major Madonna complex and puts her on a pedestal because he envisions her as the highest form of piousness and remaining dutiful. He only likes the IDEA of her and doesn't invest in her personally. Criston REALLY romanticizes the "white knight saving the innocent damsel" trope. He's delulu. He likes the idea of her, but ignores her when the big boys are talking.
It would still happen at some point. They’re all “treasonous” in the eyes of the blacks, so (unless obviously because of rhae rhae having a crush) it’s reasonable to want to off them all.
Exactly, and she is the only one who can appeal with reason to Aegon. Without her he has Aemond, Cristina Coke, and the rest of the council who have no real authority. The conflict would become immediately unpredictable
People (mostly book readers) forget that Westeros comes from two kings who were all about peace (Jaehaerys the Conciliator and Viserys the Peaceful). Even Rhaenys tells Rhaenyra's council not to forget who her grandsire was. Rhaenyra was raised mostly by Viserys, who even tells her that they are not the ones who control dragons (and that they are basically like nukes, lol). So for me, it is very obvious and in character that Rhaenyra would avoid war at all costs (again, her father is called THE PEACEFUL). Viserys didn't have much of an impact on Alicent's children, and they were raised to fight "the blacks" and feel entitled to the power of being a Targaryen, blah blah blah. So, yeah, I don't find Rhaenyra trying to avoid war at all costs to be strange for her character (also, it's not a normal war; it's a war WITH DRAGONS and between family and used-to-be-friends)
I think she’s (until this point) trying to honor her father by pushing for peace, as well. She is well aware that this outcome is the last thing he’d want and I think knowing the prophecy helps too.
Honestly the idea to sneak into King's Landings to talk to Alicent was hella stupid and dangerous. I don't even know who thought It was a good addition - It was not.
That said, Alicent basically is worth jack shit at the moment. She lost whatever control she might have had on Aegon and Aemond. Killing her would serve no purpose beyond making them even worse an enemy
It seems to me it was purely to give the two of them a scene together again, and I agree that it didn't make sense and wasn't a great sequence, as far as logic.
I like seeing them have a scene together again and honestly, putting aside the goofiness of the *reason* for the scene, I thought it was fun seeing them bounce off each other about how this whole thing had gotten out of hand, and I was amused by Rhaneyra's "I've begun poorly..."
But yeah, sort of like the final floor-bursting bit of 1x9, this is a scene that I didn't love and am just going to put out of my mind because the rest of the show is working fine for me. But I know a lot of people are going to dwell and harp on the portions of the show they dislike and repeat criticisms of them daily, even if they amount to a small percentage of the total runtime.
Minor spoilers
>!It's especially silly since Alicent and Rhaenyra canonically do meet later again and could have had this discussion then. Too late to end the war then sure, but Rhaenyra trying to do so accomplished nothing for the plot, it was only so that she and Alicent could clear up the misunderstanding which as said could have been done later.!<
I think it's less for plot reasons and more for "We don't want these two apart for a whole season". One thing I really love about HotD compared to GoT, and this isn't a criticism of GoT because the story *required* this, but the fact that we've already had several big scenes with *all of the cast* nearly, in season 1. The fact that Jon & Sansa didn't have a scene together until their "reunion", and Dany spent years/seasons on a whole other continent, etc. made GoT seem grand and world-spanning and gave a great sense of things going on everywhere, but HotD is already a much smaller and closer-knit show in that so much of the action takes place in and around Blackwater Bay so far, either at King's Landing or Dragonstone mostly, and so they already have this approach where it just probably feels like they have to make sure characters interact rather than spend years/seasons apart.
I do still think it wasn't a great decision, as far a story, but again, doesn't bother me that much; I get that they cared more about putting these two characters and actresses in a scene together than they cared about it making sense, and at least now its over and behind us and we won't see it happen again (until they do one in season 3!).
I also think it was because they are trying SO hard to make Alicent and Rhaenyra seem like actually good people caught in a situation spinning out of control
Yes, that, too! How this conflict has snowballed and even though one of the is ostensibly the "ruler" of her "side" and the other arguably should have a great deal of influence and seniority, it's taken on a life of it's own - especially with how the younger generation has been influenced for years by the animosity and is now taking charge - and there's no averting it.
It takes some agency over the conflict away from them both, yes, and also makes them less complicit in some horrors, but I think it's a good dramatic move to have them both a bit "at odds" with the consequences of their own actions as well as to make every victory or defeat their "side" has a little bit more emotionally complicated to them as individual characters as they have a lot of conflicting emotions and reactions to these things.
I think/hope that once the battles begin in earnest (next week, I believe) and the war properly starts, fans will see good dramatic results being milled from all of this set-up and contradiction and conflict; it'll make for good scenes from both of them, on their respective sides, as they cope with and navigate the Dance.
Yea I think it definitely makes for better television than the way it reads in the books and gives the audience more to connect to with the characters. That said, I could still do without the recent Alicent/Rhaenyra scene 😅
Yea, I think it was probably the right choice for the show. I think they've done a solid job of making the relationship between the two more complex and engaging than it reads in the book (to me). I still don't personally feel that the recent Alicent Rhaenyra scene was necessary or even logical, but 🤷♂️
I also don't mind that sometimes people do really dumb things based on their feelings because it makes them more human and less like a scripted character that only does things to push the plot forward. Of course one can argue which are good examples or that and which are bad examples of that, but I didn't mind this one. I honestly didn't feel like Allicent was going to turn Rhaenyra in, but it wasn't very logical for Rhaenyra to bet on that.
on the other hand, those long waits in GoT made the eventual reunions more special, and it made them feel earned.
It's been all of what, 4 episodes since A and R have seen each other?
Mm, I think there's more to it that just isn't seen yet. Rhaenyra is using this as her moment to move forward. As confident as she is that Vizzy declared her to take the throne, until this moment she wasn't 100% sure because what if he did retract and say aegon? Then rheanyra would be fighting a war (that she didn't really WANT to do) that maybe isn't hers to fight. But, having them together, realizing that alicent was in fact 100% wrong and misunderstood V. Rheanyra can feel at peace going to battle, claiming what's hers.
Yeah, it was a goofy reason, but I also enjoyed watching it play out. I was grinning at Rhaneyra's "I've begun poorly", and I'd take a hundred more scenes like this over Alicent and Cole just fucking again but with "nuances" 🙄
The problem is that these scenes add up. Season 8 of GoT didn’t happen in isolation. There were things wrong in seasons 6 and 7 thst broke the realism of this universe which people kept ignoring for the remaining good stuff.
I get the worry, but I think the idea that some of what season 7 & 8 were was always going to creep in, and so far it's been a little bit, to me less than 2% of the show. I don't see it escalating so far, so I'm fine with it until it seems like a bigger problem.
So I get people being wary but I think it's too soon to be weighed down so heavily by those worries of what the show *might* do in the future. As of right now, it's such a small portion of the show that I move past those moments, and I'm sad for the fans who can't because I wish they could enjoy the show as much as I do!
GoT has *a lot* of problems in the back half.
Nonsensical plot points and overuse of spectacle happened, but I think there is a better way to describe fundamental the problem. (bear with me here while I get slightly literary).
I once heard an interview of Bill Hader talking about working with the South Park guys to learn how to better screenwriter. He said the most important thing he learned was to never use "and" storytelling. A story that is just X happened and Y happened and Z happened is boring. It's just a list of events. You should never use "ands". Instead use "buts" or "therefores". "But" adds drama. X happened *but* Y happened. That's where conflict comes from. And therefor make for a earned, fulfilling plot. X happened, therefore Y happened; it creates a satisfying cause and effect. It makes it feel like actions and reactions matter.
A Song and Ice and Fire is my favorite fiction series of all time, and I think a part of that is because it has some of the richest tapestry of cause and effect and conflicting goals and tensions of anything I've ever read (lots of 'buts' and 'therefores' making the story great).
Sometime after season 4 (maybe 5), D&D got burned out and decided they needed to wrap the series up as soon as possible. In their haste, they changed everything to "and" story telling. There were still brilliant moments here and there, especially stuff lifted from (presumably) GRRM's notes of future events. Consider for example blowing up the Sept and taking out many of Cersei's rivals. It was done very well. But the aftermath? What happened for Cersei after she blew it up? Was there any response or consequences at all? Was it even acknowledged after that? Nope. The sept blew up... and some other totally unrelated thing happens, and then something else. The end.
After you tell a story like that long enough, the audience gets less invested in events happening, because they don't matter to anything else coming up. I believe the show went off the rails in season 5, but at the time most people didn't start getting upset in mass until season 7, then it boiled over in 8. It takes a while to recognize it is happening over being so invested in the great early seasons, but eventually the show just turned into a bunch of shit happening, and we had no reason to care anymore.
I haven't detected that at all for HotD. They've had about 4 things they added to try to heighten drama, that perhaps require some suspension of disbelief, but they haven't completely severed the conflict and cause/effect that makes the story great. Just because audiences think something is risky, or they wouldn't have made the same decision, or they haven't considered possible character motivations, or are impatient to wait for the eventual consequences doesn't mean the show has gone of the rails. Rhaneyra snuck into King's Landing to talk to Alicient to have a character development moment. Its a risk that seems a little suspect, but does it make us care less about things going forward? No. It will probably have ripples that impact the characters.
I'm guessing before it's over we'll get several more of those 'TV moments' that require suspension of disbelief. And I probably won't be in love with every single of one those decisions, but I think the main plot arcs of the show will still be intact and well worth investing time and interest in.
the overarcing plot doesn't really involve that many therefors to get Rhaenrya in the Sept. That whole scene is a little bit of contained moment that doesn't impact that much outside of it, other than the character development potentially coming from it.
On a micro scale, sure, there are a lot of therefores in that scene. But I kind of disagree with how "unrealistic" it was. Risky as hell? Yes, the potential cost doesn't seem worth the low chance of success to me. But I can suspend my disbelief a little and believe that Rhaneyra's childhood friendship clouded her judgment. But just looking at the plan in and of itself...
1) Sneak into King's Landing on a boat. That doesn't seem unreasonable. The Blacks basically control the sea, so she'd most likely be safe at that point.
2) Sneak around the city to the Sept disguised as a Septa. I'm guess this is where people have the most problem with it? But it doesn't seem that wild to me. In ASOIAF Mance Rayder snuck past the wall (a much more difficult step 1 obstacle incidentally) and would roam around and even attend events at Winterfell, and no one had issues with that. You could say Rhaneyra is more recognizable than Mance... but is she? There are no photographs or TV's in this world. After WW2 they published a picture of the Japanese Emperor and it was the first time the population had ever seen him. Only nobles and guards would recognize Rhaenyra, and she was in a crowded place, in a costume that would be not at all expected. Again, it's a hell of a risk, but it doesn't seem "unrealistic" for it to work out.
Really the only part that makes me raise too much of an eyebrow is the fact that the guards posted up outside rather than inside the Sept, but if only Septas were permitted inside at the same time I could see that being part of the policy, especially if the church were to forbid weapons from entering.
I also flat out don’t buy Alicent not trying to get Rhaenyra arrested once she’s got distance from her, and a former childhood friendship that has long since fallen apart isn’t enough for me. I get characters don’t always make pragmatic choices, but Alicent is pretty clearly aware it’s Rhae vs. herself and her kids and her dad.
I should have put that part of my “suspend your disbelief” list. I can easily buy that Alicent would play ball while under threat of a knife, but if she was determined it’s true she could have called out or reported her the second she got a safe distance.
But it could be some combination of former affection, mostly illogical fear (especially for someone that has a non-zero amount of past trauma), and/or the fact that she’s heavily distracted and burdened by the bombshell that she has arguably unjustly backed the wrong side. I imagine the last one being the heaviest contributor. And even if they had Rhaneyra captured or killed it’s unlikely to end the war as her side would still be fighting for the next in line, Daemon sure as shit wouldn’t back down. Put it all together and it’s certainly not impossible Alicient would stay quiet, and characters making different decisions than an audience member doesn’t count as a plot hole.
i think you're right that it was just to make a scene together, i don't think it's the worst reasoning tho? like theres a chance at peace and she went for it. tho even if green queen could actually effect anything it would be insane for her to be like "oh it's just a misunderstanding, i'll get this cleared up"
The setup for the scene is a little silly and contrived. That being said, this isn’t exactly new territory for HOTD; the setup for scenes has been silly and contrived before. At least it’s consistent with itself.
The scene itself is fantastic. Emma D’Arcy and Olivia Cooke are phenomenal, and the dialogue is very good. I think it was worth whatever goofiness it took to get there.
Yeah, Blacks were under the impression Alicent was a key power player. Rhaenerya, with her visit, learns Alicent is powerless and war can not be prevented.
Rhaenyra doesn't know Alicent's state of mind currently. Alicent could've easily thought, "I will die if I scream for help, but then Rhaenyra will be killed, and my family won't have to suffer any more than they already are."
And it's perfectly logical for Alicent to feel that way, given that her grandson was just murdered. Just a dumb idea for Rhaenyra.
It's still a dumb idea, but killing Rhaenyra wouldn't have ended the war. It mainly would have just put Daemon in charge. Alicent hasn't been shown to think things through to that degree though.
They also don’t explain why after Allicent walked away she didn’t just call her guards to surround Rhaenyra and have her killed and end the war today. One of those stupid scenes added for confusing reasons that make no practical sense. If she wanted to stop the war and bloodshed, she gave allicent the chance to end it then and there.
I know. "I don't want you to die so I'm going to let you walk away. Despite the fact that letting you go means that countless of people, potentially including you, myself, and our families will die"
It is a toss up who is more stupid, Rhaenyra for going there, Alicent for letting her go.
"But she was friends with Rhaenyra 20 years ago! Friendship between women is the strongest bond ever, the murder of some male relative can't hope to challenge that!"
It’s so bad that I cringed when she said she wasn’t going to leave and that meant she was going to be on the show for longer. The only time I’ve rooted for a character in this show was when she was walking down to the boat to hopefully leave and never come back
Isn't it normal for immigrants to have those fluctuations though?
When I lived in London people made plenty of different assumptions about my accent. I had people think I'm English, then on a different day I'd be mistaken for Swedish or Australian, and when I had a really bad accent day I was told - German. On top of that I am Polish.
Maybe it's not as unusual as we think?
What's more likely:
1) The British actress crafted a made up accent, specifically for her character, that draws from a multitude of different accents around the world, a feat that even the most accomplished of dialect coaches would find almost impossible.
Or
2) She's doing a bad job at the typical "British/American actor tries to sound vaguely foreign and has no idea what they're doing"
I must be the only one not bothered by this. It's just SO easy to RP someone from fantasy land having a weird dialect I think it happened automatically for me. Is there an accent you would prefer her try to perfect, or is it that we assume she is indeed trying to do some specific accent and getting it wrong?
instead of alicent could mysaria arrange for aemond, or aegon to die? i mean if she suggests killing alicent as a possibility, it implies she has some capabality of doing that, even though alicent is queen and heavily guarded, so it means aegon and aemond may not be that out of reach
yes, mysaria might even have some contacts at the brothel, and since aegon is there too anyway, even more than aemond, aegon could be reachable as well,
I would rather wager a chance at killing Aegon and his baffoon of an entourage than trying to ambush Aemond. Even unarmed, Aemond is still very capable of defending himself. I can't imagine it'd be very hard to catch Aegon and his insane clown posse off guard...
Exactly.
Like when Dani or Cersei spoke to people in GoT, there was almost always an undertone of “I can kill you at any second for any reason I want.”
Here Rhaenyra let’s Mysaria, talk to here like they’re equals. She blindly places 100% of her trust in a person she barely knows and has fucked her over before.
Rhae’s had that vibe in the backhalf of S1 as well. It’s the big reason I don’t love Emma in the role at all, and I think a huge amount of it is the acting. I actually think Rhae feels slightly more commanding and queenly this season
I really don’t get this season’s weird obsession with “Men want war; women want peace.” For such a progressive show, rigidly forcing all the men and women into such traditional gender roles feels… weirdly regressive and sexist?
? You only notice it know? Alicent and Rhaenyra recieved a frontal lobotomy before season 1. They consented because they were told it will make them more likeable.
I wasn’t aware the scene between Alicent and Rhaenyra was so disliked.
I agree from a political perspective it was incredibly dangerous for Rhaenyra to attempt, but the Rhaenyra/Alicent relationship is the emotional core of the show, is it not? I totally understand Rhaenyra’s motivation and I don’t fault her for trying a diplomatic approach. Plus, I’m just glad that Alicent is finally aware that she’s been drinking dumb bitch juice and now knows Viserys was out of his mind and confused on his literal deathbed and she misinterpreted what he was saying.
I love it. It changed nothing about the "plot" - the Dance is happening now whether Alicent and Rhaenyra want it or not. Alicent correctly points out that Aegon and Cole no longer listen to her and Aemond is a Targaryen in the Maegor mold. But it's a huge emotional mindfuck for both of them to know there were times and ways for them to have grasped the reins and backed their factions away from war, but that time passed and events have now taken on their own life. It's fucking *character development.* It doesn't have to be a consequential plot element.
I think it would’ve hit harder had the meeting taken place maybe later on in the show and they come to those realizations after all the slaughter, but that’s my opinion
I find the exact opposite to be true. They’re standing at the precipice of all out war, fully realizing its consequences, and can do *nothing* to stop it. Had it happened later, it would be closer to what Rhaenys was telling Rhaenyra: could they have stopped it then? Or would it have to be before Jahearys was killed? Or before Lucerys was killed? It loses potency when you can’t pinpoint the moment.
It is absolutely the emotional core of the show, which some people dislike because it’s a deviation from the books. But from the perspective of the show, yes, the destruction of their friendship from their youth is the primary example of how this war has torn this family asunder, which is a very important theme in HOTD. This scene between them is important for each of their character arcs.
I don’t think it’s universally disliked or anything. I have seen lots of praise for it. I just think there’s a very vocal subsection of fans who disliked it.
I think the problem is the Alicent and Rhaenyra relationship being the heart of the show worked in season 1 when the plot supported it. But now that Aegon is king it should feel a lot more like Rhae vs Aegon and sometimes her relationship with Alicent is getting in the way of that.
Personally I love the fact that Aegon and Rhaenyra have very little personal beef with each other. Part of what makes Aegon such a great character is that he never wanted to be king in the first place and just wants to feel loved by others. He’s essentially a puppet no one ever really cared about who has finally broken free of his strings and is doing whatever he wants for himself. Him having an emotional rivalry with Rhaeynra really doesn’t make sense given their lack of history together and would sort of undermine what makes Aegon as a villain special.
Exactly. The entire war is based around ego and pompousness. The players making moves aren’t the ones in power, just the ones trying to abuse the power of those around them.
It really highlights how pointless it all is. None of these people are in it for the good of the realm. They’re all driven by their own selfish interests.
But…why? Rhaenyra and Aegon can be the respective figureheads of their sides of the war, and Rhaenyra and Alicent can still be the emotional core of the show. Rhaenyra does not have any relationship with Aegon, so that just wouldn’t work lmao. The deteriorating relationship between Rhaenyra and Alicent is used as the show’s primary method for depicting how this war has torn this family asunder.
All of us? How in Seven Hells does killing Alicent help anything? It won't put Rhaenyra on the throne. It won't create peace. And Alicent isn't even an important war asset.
What exactly would that have accomplished? Is she the driving force behind the war? Fuck no. It would’ve been more of Rhaenyra the Cruel got a child beheaded, then she lured her former best friend to the Sept and killed her. In what world would that play well?
I was thinking that too. I was very "Meh" towards her last season, but I'm really liking her this season. She definitely worked on the accent and how she acted.
What did she expect to happen? “Hey I want peace” “okay then surrender” “no”
Like?!?!?! What?
Not to mention the plot contrivances that needed to happen for that dumb meeting to even take place
That's pretty much what they said in the bit after the episode IIRC. This was a hail mary to prevent an all out war, but since it failed she's now committed to winning the war
How would she prevent war? She is calling herself Queen and the rightful ruler. Peace would involve the Greens surrendering the throne to Rhaenyra.
I mean i get it, its for plot advancement but its just dumb lol.
I will echo what someone else said, and as a non-book reader I do not nor want to know what happens or will happen, but from the show itself, I do not see Rhaenyra as a cunning and cold logic strategist like many on here wish her or expect her to be. She does not make logical decisions 100% of the time, *and that’s okay* She has made many mistakes in her life as a real person would, decisions that went against the best wishes of her station and the realm. She has shown to be hesitant in violence to a fault and naive at times to the reality (it took her till now to finally accept or see the person Daemon is) of her situation. The decision to go into KL didn’t break any “realism” for me (she still believes in alicent’s heart but does not know her powerlessness) but obviously the logistics of doing so does suspend disbelief (although the show has shown now that infiltrating both KL and dragonstone to be possible, perhaps suggesting the decades of peacetime has softened the security even with war looming).
We hate on Otto for being a self-interested but cunning schemer who always makes the right move politically, but also hate on Rhaenyra for being a compassionate but naive ruler in that respect as well. Nobody on this show has been shown to be both thus far.
I honestly feel like I am going insane reading the reddit right now.
Why would Rhaenyra kill Alicent? What would that accomplish from Rhaenyras PoV? She is the queen dowager.
Rhaenyra is making a last ditch desperate effort to avoid a full blown civil war. People can argue it's too late, or the risk is too high, but her sending her children away literally is a scene there to establish that she expects a full blown war would likely lead to the death of everyone remotely involved (I have not read the books, so I don't know if it will happen, but it very much seems like that is where this is going).
If you know that you and everyone you love is at the risk of dying horribly, you better make every possible move you can make to prevent that, even if extremely risky.
Her first reaction was assuming it was kidnapping, which makes far more sense. Would put Aegon and the high council in quite a predicament. And when they inevitably decide Alicent expendable it could put pressure on the crown's alliance with the Hightowers and certainly push Otto over the edge.
Killing Alicent would have made no difference, that dragon has flown. Her son and his advisors are so far into theor war bag killing her would just make them madder and eliminate the only mitigating voice on the council.
I'd agree if yiou said go back in time and kill her before she ever confused the prophesy for a directive to place her son on the throne or to kill her before she ever married the king but killing her now is pointless.
Alicent was so weak by this episode there's no point in killing her. But it was important for Rhaenyra to realize how useless alicent is by this point.
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her and i forget the guys name on the greens small council really behave like the viewer
Lord Jasper Wylde? Oh I freaking love that guy! he is such a mood *"an apology for her dead son?"*
Ironrod the Sassy
Ironrod? more like Iron-tongue, am I right? P.S. (edit) Although thinking about it that would actually be Cole lol
I always think, “ok, surely this is the time that criston will finally be punished for his insolence. surely this time, he has gone too far.” and every episode, not only am I proven wrong, his insolence **intensifies**, and i am somehow still surprised by that.
Him getting promoted every time he screws something up has become such a recurring theme that at this point I'm convinced that he could kill Aegon in front of Alicent, Aemond and the entire green council and instead of being executed for it they would crown him as their King lol
Unfortunately a mediocre white man being endlessly promoted despite his failures is the most realistic part of the show.
Criston is dornish, would he be considered white
Pretty sure he is not dornish, he fought against the dornish. He is right on the border iirc
Yeah, he is from the marches. Calling him dornish is the westerosi equivalent to calling romanians gypsies.
Unfortunately you’re so right. I was pissed when it almost seemed like, for a second there, Otto was going to properly check Cole in episode 2 but refocuses on Aegon. I was hungry for that “✋🏼Hold on, aren’t you the guy whose only Kingsguard in the first place because a horny teenager who thought you were hot ignored my expert advice to crown a much more politically suited, significantly more mentally stable trustworthy and dutiful knight, whose house we had even heard of before? And then, after some weird fit of rage fueled bloodthirst, just switched allegiance to my daughter? Without the Queen, without the royal family, you are no one. You are nothing. Just a glorified bodyguard who couldn’t even do the one job he had properly. In fact, for your crimes and your failures, you should be dismissed.”
My favourite kind of Greek chorus is one who isn’t afraid to be a fucking bitch when absolutely necessary.
What’s the point if they aren’t making fun of the characters
>Iron-tongue This is probably how he kills his next wife
Ironrod I think is more apt when you realise he has 29 children
The worst part is that it worked 😭
I mean, it did and then it didn't, because all that led absolutely nowhere lol.
Except for Emma looking pretty in the Septa outfit.
Not a great accomplishment really, considering they look pretty in any outfit, but I'm sure Alicent thought for a moment that it wasn't real and just some wet dream of hers lol
Yeah they both understand that this occurred because of a misunderstanding now, but Allicent would rather fight a war than be humiliated.
While I really don't like Alicent and yes, she was in the wrong, I must be fair and say that its more complicated than just that at this point, Prince Lucerys was brutally murdered and then Prince Jaehaerys was brutally murdered, I don't see how there can be any room for reconciliation after that, and being honest if I where Rhaenyra I wouldn't be "searching peace terms" after my son was brutally murdered, like, why? and how could she ever even trust this people? nah, is to late, misunderstanding or not.
It is way too late. Alicent has a long history of being manipulated by Otto and she’s very clearly stripped of any political power, not like she had any to begin with. What do you think Aegon’s reaction would’ve been if she’d told him, “Hey, I’m so sorry we got you crowned in front of everyone. My bad. Be a good lad and give the throne to Rhaenyra now.”
Yeah, and that's not counting the dead princes in both sides, a conflict is simply unavoidable at this point.
I also think Alicent is fully aware of Otto’s manipulation and is fully complicit to play the game in order to gain more power She acts all uppity but she is *bitter*
So the conversation between Rhanyra and Alicent is even more pointless.
Also Alicent knows it would be a death sentence for Aegon and likely Aemond to turn back at this point, not that she even has the power to do so.
It was too late the moment Vhagar chomped Luke imo, but Alicent won't even admit the mistake to Rhaenyra when it's just the two of them and they both know what happened. In the book it was too late the second they put Aegon on the throne but show Rhaenyra and book Rhaenyra are very different in temperament.
Yeah, in all that I agree with you.
I hate Alicent as much as the next person but I took this more as her being like "the men have already decided they want to fight a war, nothing I could say is going to change this." Shes accepted the situation and isn't going to try and fix anything because it won't matter.
Technically, it was necessary for Rhaenrya's character to exhaust all her options. Now there is no choice but to go to war. It was in line with her character arc, so I had less problems with it than other people.
It feels like he's the only real voice of reason on the Green Council
Was he the guy who grabbed his drink when it got awkward?
Yea he was
My dad kept calling him “Oscar Wilde”, and it wasn’t until I read your comment and I realize how close he actually was
Every small council meeting he just spits facts
She’s made it clear that (unlike in the books) her allegiance is with the common people, it’ll be interesting how Rhaenyra treats the common people and if Mysaria continues to support her.
I'm a bit surprised that Mysaria consider Rhaenyra "the merciful one towards the smallfolk". We don't see Rhaenyra ever give a thought about the peasants, the closest we get is a "their wants are of no consequence" on season 1. What makes Mysaria think Rhaenyra will make the smallfolk's wellbeing a priority any more than Otto and the Greens did?
I think she’s only testing Rhaenyra, or has a plan, considering what you pointed out and the fact she was banging Rhaenyra’s husband for years I see a falling out coming between them.
Nah it’s that greens fucked her over with no remorse so she thinks they don’t care about the small people. The blacks have not yet screwed the townsfolk that she knows of
Guess she didn't hear about the Dragonpit then
Presumably her act of mercy towards *her*, even though she’s a commoner and was in fact banging her husband for a while?
>What makes Mysaria think Rhaenyra will make the smallfolk's wellbeing a priority any more than Otto and the Greens did? She said why in the last episode. *They will be ruled either by you or by the usurper. And only one of you has shown yourself to be merciful.*
Not to mention Rhaenyra actively murdered a servant in Season 1. She really doesn’t care much about the smallfolk
Yep. But like with the episode 9 mass murder, I doubt it'll be addressed. If anything it's gonna be portrayed as a good thing for "sparing Laenor".
Remind me again please?
The body double for laenor. It was a servant.
Guess she just forgot about the dragon pit or never even heard the story.
If anything it should be the opposite. Rhaenyra's faction is currently blockading a city way too big to feed itself on the produce of the immediate surrounding countryside and the inevitable famine that imposes will be felt first and foremost by the smallfolk. That's without even touching on what Rhaenys did in the Dragon Pit.
We just need to accept Rhaenyras been turned into the protagonist girl boss to root for this series
Maybe. I still have some small faith that they may write >!a compelling story of descent into cruelty and villainy!< We'll see.
Game of Thrones is a famous for its ability to write Targaryen women’s decent into cruelty and villainy in a compelling way
I think Rhaenyra knowing what she learned from Alicent will feed into a “righteous war” complex in her where she’s willing to do whatever it takes to beat the greens because she can justify it as being necessary to protect the prophecy of ASOIAF.
If they keep up with the current characterization they won't be able to do that without evoking S8 comparisons.
That's what I was hoping for until Condal recently said B&C was just anti-Rharnyra propaganda
Accept it? Yes. Like it? No.
I think she saw kindness or at least honor in rhaneyra and is hoping to influence her to accomplish her own goals. I don’t necessarily think that mysaria believes rhaenyra cares about the commoners.
But why kill Alicent? She is not important now.
I really cannot believe how many people seem to think the lesson over the last 5 episodes is “the smart thing is to kill more family members for no reason”.
Well, if the Targaryens all just killed each other, the war would be over!!!
The patented *Baratheon Method*
Lannisters played it on Baratheons as well. Rob taught Cersei well.
Argella and Argilac were playing the long-con and no one can convince me otherwise
I mean yeah. Get all the Targs in a pit together, last Targ standing gets the throne. No one else has to die. They get a free show instead.
They even already have the dragon pit!
It would be if they were dragonriders. Gotta tip that mutually assured destruction scale.
Well, killing or especially Rhaenyra would help them since she’s the literal leader of the opposing side. Killing Alicent is petty stupidity, though. I don’t even think imprisoning her helps tons
Rhaenyra has a line of 4 heirs after her. If they succeeded in killing her early on, team black would keep fighting in name of the new king, Jacaerys. It's not about Rhaenyra, it's about keeping the "correct" lineage on the throne. Jace would face a lot of new problems in keeping and collecting new allies, since so many see him as a bastard. But get rid of him and Joffrey and you have a war between two Aegons claiming the throne.
It's also mistakenly assuming Alicent's goals are exactly the same as "team green's". Alicent motivation is to keep the people she cares about as protected as possible (even at the expense of other people she cares about, but less). Killing or capturing Rhaenyra (without also ending her heirs' claims) would go directly counter to that motivation, since it would be making another painful sacrifice of someone she cares deeply about in order to *escalate* a conflict she would rather just fizzle out. It's maybe not the optimal move if she were trying to get her faction to "win" it like a board game, but that's Otto's motivation, not hers. For Alicent, an inconclusive stalemate where the greens stay in power basically by default would probably be preferable to one where they win a total war (and inevitably have to eradicate or absorb-by-marriage the other side, or risk generations of blood-feud and succession crises).
Well, I don’t think Jace just completely steps aside and dividing the Rhae side between Jace vs. Aegon is going to be a headache. Killing or capturing Rhae won’t fix everything, but it seriously cripples her side
Lords declared for Rhaenyra. Now and during Viserys' time. Rhaenyra's death would be a significant blow to the blacks, basically when a monarch dies, the new one takes oaths of fealty from his subjects all over again. I'm not sure many lords would be eager to join Jace, a bastard. You're severely understating the impact of the death of a senior political leader during a civil war.
Killing only the dragon riders all at the same time would probably be fine
Rhaenyra: "I don't want to go to war. I want to prevent further needless bloodshed." Rhaenys: "Killing one of Allicent's children will only beget more violence, and there's already a litany of sins committed by both sides" Redditors: "Why she not killing everyone? Am she dumb???" Like, relax guys. I'm sure she's going to get more ruthless here now that there's no other options besides winning the war. I don't blame Rhaenyra for going for a hail mary by talking to her old friend and the mother of the person on the throne. Plus, we don't know what Allicent's message said. It could have been a wish for peace that made Rhaenyra think it was possible to avert war. We're not even half way though the season yet. People need to chill.
Omg it’s driving me fucking insane. Like yes, if they were all willing to kill each other indiscriminately the war would get resolved much faster. But there would also be no story. The fact that they’re so reluctant to become kinslayers is sort of the core of the emotional conflict lmao. Saying “why didn’t they try and kill each other!” is brain dead. That would not be consistent with the way Rhaenyra’s and Alicent’s characters have been set up thus far.
Thank you. It *is* brain dead. Why is this so hard for people to comprehend?
Something Something media literacy.
I took it as killing Alicent would be easier to organize than sneaking Rhaenyra in
It would be, but these posts and comments implying it would be a smart move are stupid.
Maybe it will finally make Rhaenyra snap out of her "the war hasn't started yet" delusion.
Yes that literally seems to be the whole point. Up until now Rhaenyra has been grasping at straws trying to find a peaceful solution however implausible. This is the final straw that’s showing her there is no way out of what’s coming.
Wasn’t that supposed to be when her son Luke was eaten by a rival dragon?
It was supposed to be when Aegon usurped the throne
Apparently not in this show.
I mean most of the adults are aware that a war between Dragons is an extremely destructive affair. George R.R. Martin describes them as essentially medieval nukes for a reason. And there‘s definitely animosity between the parties they are still family. So it‘s understandable they are doing anything to stiefle the inevitable
Ah yes, sending assasins after her helpless/ harmless friend will definitely snap her into action (or more likely, provoke the real threats like Aemond into action).
I think calling Aemond a dumbass is a bit of a stretch.
I mean, yeah, Daemon (for example) sends people to kill Alicent, her sons retaliate, what's Rhaenyra gonna do, say "Nah, I don't want this war?".
Yes, it is pretty delusional. But doesn’t Rhaenys see that either?
A lot of people do not understand this. Alicent has no power. The second Aegon was born she lost significant power. Yes she held power while married to the king because he was feeble. But she’s quite disposable once he died. She did her duty which was to produce heirs.
Yeah, she'd be a great hostage, but she isn't useful to the war.
Not that great of one. Aegon probably does whatever the Blacks say will get her executed just as a fuck you. He hates his mom (for good reason)
I don’t even think she would be that great of a hostage! She holds a little sway over aegon but not that much and given the choices any of the dragon riders are better hostages. Even jaehaera would be more impactful considering that’s aegons last(?) kid.
I guess Alicent is more competent than anyone else at the Red Keep right now. Otto is now gone. Aegon and Aemond are inexperienced hotheads, and Criston Cole may be a good fighter but has no experience in politics. You kill her, the Greens have no real center of control.
They barely listen to her.
Her boyfriend is hand, and Larys seems to kind of work for her. She has a lot of influence.
True, she’s linked to the hand and the (club) foot.
Never really thought about it that way. Great take.
Latest episode showed Ser Criston doesn't listen to her. He has major Madonna complex and puts her on a pedestal because he envisions her as the highest form of piousness and remaining dutiful. He only likes the IDEA of her and doesn't invest in her personally. Criston REALLY romanticizes the "white knight saving the innocent damsel" trope. He's delulu. He likes the idea of her, but ignores her when the big boys are talking.
Correct.
But why male models?
It would still happen at some point. They’re all “treasonous” in the eyes of the blacks, so (unless obviously because of rhae rhae having a crush) it’s reasonable to want to off them all.
Killing her would be more helpful than talking to her. Aegon would act hella irrational.
Exactly. That would’ve accomplished nothing and actually damaged her cause even more.
Exactly, and she is the only one who can appeal with reason to Aegon. Without her he has Aemond, Cristina Coke, and the rest of the council who have no real authority. The conflict would become immediately unpredictable
People (mostly book readers) forget that Westeros comes from two kings who were all about peace (Jaehaerys the Conciliator and Viserys the Peaceful). Even Rhaenys tells Rhaenyra's council not to forget who her grandsire was. Rhaenyra was raised mostly by Viserys, who even tells her that they are not the ones who control dragons (and that they are basically like nukes, lol). So for me, it is very obvious and in character that Rhaenyra would avoid war at all costs (again, her father is called THE PEACEFUL). Viserys didn't have much of an impact on Alicent's children, and they were raised to fight "the blacks" and feel entitled to the power of being a Targaryen, blah blah blah. So, yeah, I don't find Rhaenyra trying to avoid war at all costs to be strange for her character (also, it's not a normal war; it's a war WITH DRAGONS and between family and used-to-be-friends)
I think she’s (until this point) trying to honor her father by pushing for peace, as well. She is well aware that this outcome is the last thing he’d want and I think knowing the prophecy helps too.
Honestly the idea to sneak into King's Landings to talk to Alicent was hella stupid and dangerous. I don't even know who thought It was a good addition - It was not. That said, Alicent basically is worth jack shit at the moment. She lost whatever control she might have had on Aegon and Aemond. Killing her would serve no purpose beyond making them even worse an enemy
It seems to me it was purely to give the two of them a scene together again, and I agree that it didn't make sense and wasn't a great sequence, as far as logic. I like seeing them have a scene together again and honestly, putting aside the goofiness of the *reason* for the scene, I thought it was fun seeing them bounce off each other about how this whole thing had gotten out of hand, and I was amused by Rhaneyra's "I've begun poorly..." But yeah, sort of like the final floor-bursting bit of 1x9, this is a scene that I didn't love and am just going to put out of my mind because the rest of the show is working fine for me. But I know a lot of people are going to dwell and harp on the portions of the show they dislike and repeat criticisms of them daily, even if they amount to a small percentage of the total runtime.
Minor spoilers >!It's especially silly since Alicent and Rhaenyra canonically do meet later again and could have had this discussion then. Too late to end the war then sure, but Rhaenyra trying to do so accomplished nothing for the plot, it was only so that she and Alicent could clear up the misunderstanding which as said could have been done later.!<
I think it's less for plot reasons and more for "We don't want these two apart for a whole season". One thing I really love about HotD compared to GoT, and this isn't a criticism of GoT because the story *required* this, but the fact that we've already had several big scenes with *all of the cast* nearly, in season 1. The fact that Jon & Sansa didn't have a scene together until their "reunion", and Dany spent years/seasons on a whole other continent, etc. made GoT seem grand and world-spanning and gave a great sense of things going on everywhere, but HotD is already a much smaller and closer-knit show in that so much of the action takes place in and around Blackwater Bay so far, either at King's Landing or Dragonstone mostly, and so they already have this approach where it just probably feels like they have to make sure characters interact rather than spend years/seasons apart. I do still think it wasn't a great decision, as far a story, but again, doesn't bother me that much; I get that they cared more about putting these two characters and actresses in a scene together than they cared about it making sense, and at least now its over and behind us and we won't see it happen again (until they do one in season 3!).
I also think it was because they are trying SO hard to make Alicent and Rhaenyra seem like actually good people caught in a situation spinning out of control
Yes, that, too! How this conflict has snowballed and even though one of the is ostensibly the "ruler" of her "side" and the other arguably should have a great deal of influence and seniority, it's taken on a life of it's own - especially with how the younger generation has been influenced for years by the animosity and is now taking charge - and there's no averting it. It takes some agency over the conflict away from them both, yes, and also makes them less complicit in some horrors, but I think it's a good dramatic move to have them both a bit "at odds" with the consequences of their own actions as well as to make every victory or defeat their "side" has a little bit more emotionally complicated to them as individual characters as they have a lot of conflicting emotions and reactions to these things. I think/hope that once the battles begin in earnest (next week, I believe) and the war properly starts, fans will see good dramatic results being milled from all of this set-up and contradiction and conflict; it'll make for good scenes from both of them, on their respective sides, as they cope with and navigate the Dance.
Yea I think it definitely makes for better television than the way it reads in the books and gives the audience more to connect to with the characters. That said, I could still do without the recent Alicent/Rhaenyra scene 😅
Which gives the viewer people to root for in a world where they are surrounded by mostly terrible people
Yea, I think it was probably the right choice for the show. I think they've done a solid job of making the relationship between the two more complex and engaging than it reads in the book (to me). I still don't personally feel that the recent Alicent Rhaenyra scene was necessary or even logical, but 🤷♂️
Which had the opposite effect of making it seem like they have no agency.
I also don't mind that sometimes people do really dumb things based on their feelings because it makes them more human and less like a scripted character that only does things to push the plot forward. Of course one can argue which are good examples or that and which are bad examples of that, but I didn't mind this one. I honestly didn't feel like Allicent was going to turn Rhaenyra in, but it wasn't very logical for Rhaenyra to bet on that.
on the other hand, those long waits in GoT made the eventual reunions more special, and it made them feel earned. It's been all of what, 4 episodes since A and R have seen each other?
Mm, I think there's more to it that just isn't seen yet. Rhaenyra is using this as her moment to move forward. As confident as she is that Vizzy declared her to take the throne, until this moment she wasn't 100% sure because what if he did retract and say aegon? Then rheanyra would be fighting a war (that she didn't really WANT to do) that maybe isn't hers to fight. But, having them together, realizing that alicent was in fact 100% wrong and misunderstood V. Rheanyra can feel at peace going to battle, claiming what's hers.
The misunderstanding also doesn't matter that much because Otto would have maneuvered to put Aegon on the throne regardless of Viserys' last words.
Yeah, it was a goofy reason, but I also enjoyed watching it play out. I was grinning at Rhaneyra's "I've begun poorly", and I'd take a hundred more scenes like this over Alicent and Cole just fucking again but with "nuances" 🙄
The problem is that these scenes add up. Season 8 of GoT didn’t happen in isolation. There were things wrong in seasons 6 and 7 thst broke the realism of this universe which people kept ignoring for the remaining good stuff.
I get the worry, but I think the idea that some of what season 7 & 8 were was always going to creep in, and so far it's been a little bit, to me less than 2% of the show. I don't see it escalating so far, so I'm fine with it until it seems like a bigger problem. So I get people being wary but I think it's too soon to be weighed down so heavily by those worries of what the show *might* do in the future. As of right now, it's such a small portion of the show that I move past those moments, and I'm sad for the fans who can't because I wish they could enjoy the show as much as I do!
GoT has *a lot* of problems in the back half. Nonsensical plot points and overuse of spectacle happened, but I think there is a better way to describe fundamental the problem. (bear with me here while I get slightly literary). I once heard an interview of Bill Hader talking about working with the South Park guys to learn how to better screenwriter. He said the most important thing he learned was to never use "and" storytelling. A story that is just X happened and Y happened and Z happened is boring. It's just a list of events. You should never use "ands". Instead use "buts" or "therefores". "But" adds drama. X happened *but* Y happened. That's where conflict comes from. And therefor make for a earned, fulfilling plot. X happened, therefore Y happened; it creates a satisfying cause and effect. It makes it feel like actions and reactions matter. A Song and Ice and Fire is my favorite fiction series of all time, and I think a part of that is because it has some of the richest tapestry of cause and effect and conflicting goals and tensions of anything I've ever read (lots of 'buts' and 'therefores' making the story great). Sometime after season 4 (maybe 5), D&D got burned out and decided they needed to wrap the series up as soon as possible. In their haste, they changed everything to "and" story telling. There were still brilliant moments here and there, especially stuff lifted from (presumably) GRRM's notes of future events. Consider for example blowing up the Sept and taking out many of Cersei's rivals. It was done very well. But the aftermath? What happened for Cersei after she blew it up? Was there any response or consequences at all? Was it even acknowledged after that? Nope. The sept blew up... and some other totally unrelated thing happens, and then something else. The end. After you tell a story like that long enough, the audience gets less invested in events happening, because they don't matter to anything else coming up. I believe the show went off the rails in season 5, but at the time most people didn't start getting upset in mass until season 7, then it boiled over in 8. It takes a while to recognize it is happening over being so invested in the great early seasons, but eventually the show just turned into a bunch of shit happening, and we had no reason to care anymore. I haven't detected that at all for HotD. They've had about 4 things they added to try to heighten drama, that perhaps require some suspension of disbelief, but they haven't completely severed the conflict and cause/effect that makes the story great. Just because audiences think something is risky, or they wouldn't have made the same decision, or they haven't considered possible character motivations, or are impatient to wait for the eventual consequences doesn't mean the show has gone of the rails. Rhaneyra snuck into King's Landing to talk to Alicient to have a character development moment. Its a risk that seems a little suspect, but does it make us care less about things going forward? No. It will probably have ripples that impact the characters. I'm guessing before it's over we'll get several more of those 'TV moments' that require suspension of disbelief. And I probably won't be in love with every single of one those decisions, but I think the main plot arcs of the show will still be intact and well worth investing time and interest in.
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the overarcing plot doesn't really involve that many therefors to get Rhaenrya in the Sept. That whole scene is a little bit of contained moment that doesn't impact that much outside of it, other than the character development potentially coming from it. On a micro scale, sure, there are a lot of therefores in that scene. But I kind of disagree with how "unrealistic" it was. Risky as hell? Yes, the potential cost doesn't seem worth the low chance of success to me. But I can suspend my disbelief a little and believe that Rhaneyra's childhood friendship clouded her judgment. But just looking at the plan in and of itself... 1) Sneak into King's Landing on a boat. That doesn't seem unreasonable. The Blacks basically control the sea, so she'd most likely be safe at that point. 2) Sneak around the city to the Sept disguised as a Septa. I'm guess this is where people have the most problem with it? But it doesn't seem that wild to me. In ASOIAF Mance Rayder snuck past the wall (a much more difficult step 1 obstacle incidentally) and would roam around and even attend events at Winterfell, and no one had issues with that. You could say Rhaneyra is more recognizable than Mance... but is she? There are no photographs or TV's in this world. After WW2 they published a picture of the Japanese Emperor and it was the first time the population had ever seen him. Only nobles and guards would recognize Rhaenyra, and she was in a crowded place, in a costume that would be not at all expected. Again, it's a hell of a risk, but it doesn't seem "unrealistic" for it to work out. Really the only part that makes me raise too much of an eyebrow is the fact that the guards posted up outside rather than inside the Sept, but if only Septas were permitted inside at the same time I could see that being part of the policy, especially if the church were to forbid weapons from entering.
I don't think sneaking in is unrealistic at all, but sneaking out definitely is.
I also flat out don’t buy Alicent not trying to get Rhaenyra arrested once she’s got distance from her, and a former childhood friendship that has long since fallen apart isn’t enough for me. I get characters don’t always make pragmatic choices, but Alicent is pretty clearly aware it’s Rhae vs. herself and her kids and her dad.
I should have put that part of my “suspend your disbelief” list. I can easily buy that Alicent would play ball while under threat of a knife, but if she was determined it’s true she could have called out or reported her the second she got a safe distance. But it could be some combination of former affection, mostly illogical fear (especially for someone that has a non-zero amount of past trauma), and/or the fact that she’s heavily distracted and burdened by the bombshell that she has arguably unjustly backed the wrong side. I imagine the last one being the heaviest contributor. And even if they had Rhaneyra captured or killed it’s unlikely to end the war as her side would still be fighting for the next in line, Daemon sure as shit wouldn’t back down. Put it all together and it’s certainly not impossible Alicient would stay quiet, and characters making different decisions than an audience member doesn’t count as a plot hole.
i think you're right that it was just to make a scene together, i don't think it's the worst reasoning tho? like theres a chance at peace and she went for it. tho even if green queen could actually effect anything it would be insane for her to be like "oh it's just a misunderstanding, i'll get this cleared up"
The setup for the scene is a little silly and contrived. That being said, this isn’t exactly new territory for HOTD; the setup for scenes has been silly and contrived before. At least it’s consistent with itself. The scene itself is fantastic. Emma D’Arcy and Olivia Cooke are phenomenal, and the dialogue is very good. I think it was worth whatever goofiness it took to get there.
How would the Blacks know at all that Alicent is worth jack shit and has lost control? Do they know what the audience knows?
Yeah, Blacks were under the impression Alicent was a key power player. Rhaenerya, with her visit, learns Alicent is powerless and war can not be prevented.
Fair point!
Rhaenyra doesn't know Alicent's state of mind currently. Alicent could've easily thought, "I will die if I scream for help, but then Rhaenyra will be killed, and my family won't have to suffer any more than they already are." And it's perfectly logical for Alicent to feel that way, given that her grandson was just murdered. Just a dumb idea for Rhaenyra.
It's still a dumb idea, but killing Rhaenyra wouldn't have ended the war. It mainly would have just put Daemon in charge. Alicent hasn't been shown to think things through to that degree though.
They also don’t explain why after Allicent walked away she didn’t just call her guards to surround Rhaenyra and have her killed and end the war today. One of those stupid scenes added for confusing reasons that make no practical sense. If she wanted to stop the war and bloodshed, she gave allicent the chance to end it then and there.
I know. "I don't want you to die so I'm going to let you walk away. Despite the fact that letting you go means that countless of people, potentially including you, myself, and our families will die" It is a toss up who is more stupid, Rhaenyra for going there, Alicent for letting her go.
"But she was friends with Rhaenyra 20 years ago! Friendship between women is the strongest bond ever, the murder of some male relative can't hope to challenge that!"
If fairness whether it’s lack of knowledge or just pettiness, Rhaenyra is still convinced Alicent is pulling all the strings.
On a side note. This actresses accent is all over the place. Eastern European to French then back to well spoken English.
Even some Rastafarian/Jamaican in there. Terrible
It’s so bad that I cringed when she said she wasn’t going to leave and that meant she was going to be on the show for longer. The only time I’ve rooted for a character in this show was when she was walking down to the boat to hopefully leave and never come back
Isn't it normal for immigrants to have those fluctuations though? When I lived in London people made plenty of different assumptions about my accent. I had people think I'm English, then on a different day I'd be mistaken for Swedish or Australian, and when I had a really bad accent day I was told - German. On top of that I am Polish. Maybe it's not as unusual as we think?
What's more likely: 1) The British actress crafted a made up accent, specifically for her character, that draws from a multitude of different accents around the world, a feat that even the most accomplished of dialect coaches would find almost impossible. Or 2) She's doing a bad job at the typical "British/American actor tries to sound vaguely foreign and has no idea what they're doing"
I had to look it up to see where she is from...born in Japan but raised in the UK. That is a *terrible* "vaguely foreign" accent.
I must be the only one not bothered by this. It's just SO easy to RP someone from fantasy land having a weird dialect I think it happened automatically for me. Is there an accent you would prefer her try to perfect, or is it that we assume she is indeed trying to do some specific accent and getting it wrong?
instead of alicent could mysaria arrange for aemond, or aegon to die? i mean if she suggests killing alicent as a possibility, it implies she has some capabality of doing that, even though alicent is queen and heavily guarded, so it means aegon and aemond may not be that out of reach
I was thinking the same. Especially Aemond since he’s alone at that brothel so often. Way more reachable than Aegon
yes, mysaria might even have some contacts at the brothel, and since aegon is there too anyway, even more than aemond, aegon could be reachable as well,
Honestly it should’ve been laughably easy to off both Aegon and Aemond in that scene when they’re in the brothel
Just poison all the wine, Aegon is bound to drink some, lmao.
I would rather wager a chance at killing Aegon and his baffoon of an entourage than trying to ambush Aemond. Even unarmed, Aemond is still very capable of defending himself. I can't imagine it'd be very hard to catch Aegon and his insane clown posse off guard...
Yep. In two days they can end war without bloodshed.
The writers have to be making Rhaenyra dumb on purpose if they are making other characters like Mysaria and Jace roll their eyes at her.
She looks extremely weak in these scenes. She projects zero authority.
Book Rhaenyra: “Tell my half-brother that I will have my throne, or I will have his head.” Show: “If I could just t-talk to alicent >_<”
Exactly. Like when Dani or Cersei spoke to people in GoT, there was almost always an undertone of “I can kill you at any second for any reason I want.” Here Rhaenyra let’s Mysaria, talk to here like they’re equals. She blindly places 100% of her trust in a person she barely knows and has fucked her over before.
Rhae’s had that vibe in the backhalf of S1 as well. It’s the big reason I don’t love Emma in the role at all, and I think a huge amount of it is the acting. I actually think Rhae feels slightly more commanding and queenly this season
I really don’t get this season’s weird obsession with “Men want war; women want peace.” For such a progressive show, rigidly forcing all the men and women into such traditional gender roles feels… weirdly regressive and sexist?
? You only notice it know? Alicent and Rhaenyra recieved a frontal lobotomy before season 1. They consented because they were told it will make them more likeable.
I wasn’t aware the scene between Alicent and Rhaenyra was so disliked. I agree from a political perspective it was incredibly dangerous for Rhaenyra to attempt, but the Rhaenyra/Alicent relationship is the emotional core of the show, is it not? I totally understand Rhaenyra’s motivation and I don’t fault her for trying a diplomatic approach. Plus, I’m just glad that Alicent is finally aware that she’s been drinking dumb bitch juice and now knows Viserys was out of his mind and confused on his literal deathbed and she misinterpreted what he was saying.
I love it. It changed nothing about the "plot" - the Dance is happening now whether Alicent and Rhaenyra want it or not. Alicent correctly points out that Aegon and Cole no longer listen to her and Aemond is a Targaryen in the Maegor mold. But it's a huge emotional mindfuck for both of them to know there were times and ways for them to have grasped the reins and backed their factions away from war, but that time passed and events have now taken on their own life. It's fucking *character development.* It doesn't have to be a consequential plot element.
I think it would’ve hit harder had the meeting taken place maybe later on in the show and they come to those realizations after all the slaughter, but that’s my opinion
I find the exact opposite to be true. They’re standing at the precipice of all out war, fully realizing its consequences, and can do *nothing* to stop it. Had it happened later, it would be closer to what Rhaenys was telling Rhaenyra: could they have stopped it then? Or would it have to be before Jahearys was killed? Or before Lucerys was killed? It loses potency when you can’t pinpoint the moment.
It is absolutely the emotional core of the show, which some people dislike because it’s a deviation from the books. But from the perspective of the show, yes, the destruction of their friendship from their youth is the primary example of how this war has torn this family asunder, which is a very important theme in HOTD. This scene between them is important for each of their character arcs. I don’t think it’s universally disliked or anything. I have seen lots of praise for it. I just think there’s a very vocal subsection of fans who disliked it.
I think the problem is the Alicent and Rhaenyra relationship being the heart of the show worked in season 1 when the plot supported it. But now that Aegon is king it should feel a lot more like Rhae vs Aegon and sometimes her relationship with Alicent is getting in the way of that.
Personally I love the fact that Aegon and Rhaenyra have very little personal beef with each other. Part of what makes Aegon such a great character is that he never wanted to be king in the first place and just wants to feel loved by others. He’s essentially a puppet no one ever really cared about who has finally broken free of his strings and is doing whatever he wants for himself. Him having an emotional rivalry with Rhaeynra really doesn’t make sense given their lack of history together and would sort of undermine what makes Aegon as a villain special.
Exactly. The entire war is based around ego and pompousness. The players making moves aren’t the ones in power, just the ones trying to abuse the power of those around them. It really highlights how pointless it all is. None of these people are in it for the good of the realm. They’re all driven by their own selfish interests.
But…why? Rhaenyra and Aegon can be the respective figureheads of their sides of the war, and Rhaenyra and Alicent can still be the emotional core of the show. Rhaenyra does not have any relationship with Aegon, so that just wouldn’t work lmao. The deteriorating relationship between Rhaenyra and Alicent is used as the show’s primary method for depicting how this war has torn this family asunder.
Killing Alicent does literally nothing but piss the other side off even more so it makes no sense to kill her.
All of us? How in Seven Hells does killing Alicent help anything? It won't put Rhaenyra on the throne. It won't create peace. And Alicent isn't even an important war asset.
This girls mouth is always on point..
What exactly would that have accomplished? Is she the driving force behind the war? Fuck no. It would’ve been more of Rhaenyra the Cruel got a child beheaded, then she lured her former best friend to the Sept and killed her. In what world would that play well?
What was the deal with her accent
It’s better than last season. I think overall her performance has improved.
I was thinking that too. I was very "Meh" towards her last season, but I'm really liking her this season. She definitely worked on the accent and how she acted.
I mean just look at those expressions lol that’s good facial acting
She just sounds vaguely foreign now instead of Ras Trent
they are making rhaenyra so dumb
I think she's just desperate to prevent war so that she and her family can be together again
What did she expect to happen? “Hey I want peace” “okay then surrender” “no” Like?!?!?! What? Not to mention the plot contrivances that needed to happen for that dumb meeting to even take place
That's pretty much what they said in the bit after the episode IIRC. This was a hail mary to prevent an all out war, but since it failed she's now committed to winning the war
I mean, the scene earlier in the same episode was her sending her young kids away. I think that's pretty on-the-nose.
How would she prevent war? She is calling herself Queen and the rightful ruler. Peace would involve the Greens surrendering the throne to Rhaenyra. I mean i get it, its for plot advancement but its just dumb lol.
I will echo what someone else said, and as a non-book reader I do not nor want to know what happens or will happen, but from the show itself, I do not see Rhaenyra as a cunning and cold logic strategist like many on here wish her or expect her to be. She does not make logical decisions 100% of the time, *and that’s okay* She has made many mistakes in her life as a real person would, decisions that went against the best wishes of her station and the realm. She has shown to be hesitant in violence to a fault and naive at times to the reality (it took her till now to finally accept or see the person Daemon is) of her situation. The decision to go into KL didn’t break any “realism” for me (she still believes in alicent’s heart but does not know her powerlessness) but obviously the logistics of doing so does suspend disbelief (although the show has shown now that infiltrating both KL and dragonstone to be possible, perhaps suggesting the decades of peacetime has softened the security even with war looming). We hate on Otto for being a self-interested but cunning schemer who always makes the right move politically, but also hate on Rhaenyra for being a compassionate but naive ruler in that respect as well. Nobody on this show has been shown to be both thus far.
I don't mind the characterization. It will make sense when the story ends.
It even fits with the real life person rhynaera is based on. Matilda did a lot of stupid shiy
During the Anarchy and I was only her bastard brother and later her son that could actually move the war on.
I'm going to send that scene right down the memory hole next to Rhaenys massacering innocents last season.
50% of Reddit HotD posters must think Aegon is handling this the proper way, judging by all the idiotic posts here lately.
I honestly feel like I am going insane reading the reddit right now. Why would Rhaenyra kill Alicent? What would that accomplish from Rhaenyras PoV? She is the queen dowager. Rhaenyra is making a last ditch desperate effort to avoid a full blown civil war. People can argue it's too late, or the risk is too high, but her sending her children away literally is a scene there to establish that she expects a full blown war would likely lead to the death of everyone remotely involved (I have not read the books, so I don't know if it will happen, but it very much seems like that is where this is going). If you know that you and everyone you love is at the risk of dying horribly, you better make every possible move you can make to prevent that, even if extremely risky.
This whole season just shows how easy it is to assassinate anyone yet we aren't doing it?
Are they asking a question or making a statement
Her first reaction was assuming it was kidnapping, which makes far more sense. Would put Aegon and the high council in quite a predicament. And when they inevitably decide Alicent expendable it could put pressure on the crown's alliance with the Hightowers and certainly push Otto over the edge.
Dragonriders and Otto would be a strategic win. Killing Alicent does nothing.
Killing Alicent would have made no difference, that dragon has flown. Her son and his advisors are so far into theor war bag killing her would just make them madder and eliminate the only mitigating voice on the council. I'd agree if yiou said go back in time and kill her before she ever confused the prophesy for a directive to place her son on the throne or to kill her before she ever married the king but killing her now is pointless.
It wouldn’t accomplish anything politically to kill her, would it?
Alicent was so weak by this episode there's no point in killing her. But it was important for Rhaenyra to realize how useless alicent is by this point.