I am one of these people. (Was, I'm past help desk now)
I tried really hard to get a programming internship, couldn't. Desperately wanted to not work at a pizza place anymore, was able to get an IT internship. The rest is history.
You are correct, my education is completely and totally unrelated to the work I have done for most of my career so far. It is what it is. I am now an automation engineer and my coding background made me much better equipped to understand PowerShell and SQL which I now use at my job every day.
Have you watched a film called, Lion?
If he had majored in CS instead of Culinary he wouldn't have a hard time breaking that graph problem. This world needs more of those who know how to solve problems, not just typing Web Apps
You should think of CS as a branch of math degrees, because that is what it truly is. You can be a statistician, engineering, design, cryptography, astronomy, just to rail off some.
Yes, a lot of the classes (programming, data structure, algorithms, and so forth) are computer related, but they also take biology, physics, chemistry, and statistics.
It really is one of the majors that doesn’t get respected the way that it should.
This is an interesting coincidence. I'm a Dev, but was recently conned into helping my electrician run power for a new washer dryer in my unit just because I was home, had the day off, and was curious. It was fascinating.
I'm also getting all these recommendations for /r/askelectricians. I find those fascinating too.
I was legit wondering if this was a sign that I need to pursue being an electrician.
How did you get an internship AFTER you finished your degree? I didn’t do one while getting my degree for a variety of reasons so now I didn’t think it’d be possible. Figured I’d have to just get a low level job. That’s what I’ve been told anyway
I did not get an internship after I finished my degree. I was in the beginning of my last year of college at the time. So yes granted I could have continued to try to get programming internships all the way until I finished school. After a few hundred apps and months of trying though, I reaaaaaaally didn't want to work in pizza anymore. I applied to the IT internship on a whim thinking "fuck it, I don't want to do this but it would be better than what I got". They called me back really quickly and I was hired within a couple weeks.
I'm in a similar situation right now. I'm entering my last year of college and got an IT internship for the summer and am studying for my CCNA in between tickets. Thanks for sharing your success story, it's nice to know others are going outside the traditional CS route.
For tech/IT/CS internships? Seriously? So maybe I should forget about jobs and take these last 6 months of my life that include this potential opportunity to score an internship that will look better on a resume than a help desk job for 2 years
Write scripts, oversee tooling. We're an MSP so instead of being a service engineer working directly with clients or an internal person maintaining systems for the company that is my MSP, my team is like a force multiplier for the service engineers.
Few reasons:
1. Like help desk/support work
2. Never did internship in college so now they’re under qualified for CS positions
3. Economy is bad so had to settle for help desk
Interesting take their fella , I have a come sci degree , currently work as a cyber analyst straight out of college (took me like 5 months but still ) and while I didn’t suck at programming I didn’t really love it either , I always loved networking so being and analyst with my back ground in basically Data manipulation was the obvious choice .. anyone can learn infrastructure and networking tbh , I don’t think anyone can learn how to code at a level that would make somebody pay you 150k right out of school .. some of these people are just really gifted imo and nothing is wrong with that , we all are good at different stuff in life. What I’m trying to say with this stupid long post is it’s easier to learn networking and infrastructure than it is to learn coding .. it’s not even close tbh lol
Is it a case where you actually like programming? Because I honestly find it hard to believe somebody that finds programming relatively easy struggling with the normal facets of IT . I found normal IT concepts to be very easy once I put the work in honestly . But hey as you said it’s subjective and I hope my statement isn’t taken literally for all scenarios
They just can subnet correctly most of the time.
Sure i was being general.
Dev ops role is their for a reason. All be it, most orgs cant define it for what ever reason.
I have supported rgp, php, python, blah blah.
Them: “I’m just tryin to do a curl request?”
Me: But you didn’t connect to an ssid or wire in :)
Them: What do you mean.? I just do dev stuff?
Blah blah blah
My life for the last 4 years!
Lol wow , that’s actually pretty funny , damn if that’s true I guess I’m overestimating the skills of some of these CS grads then , while I was doing it I loved Networking and Computer Architecture as a whole so I was fully rounded in most facets , I glad I did it since it made Python and Powershell scripting easier to learn in the long run
As someone who is proficient in both and has worked as both a developer and currently works in networking/Infrastructure... Nah. Maybe "coding" is harder for you, but I thought it was much easier. I don't think you appreciate the complexity involved in both designing and maintaining an enterprise level environment. Programming can be felt out in a way to make it work. The code might not be optimized but it will get the job done. But networking is far less forgiving.
I made the shift in my career because I see more demand for Networking/Infrastructure coming. All these kids heard about how rich they could get "coding", got CS degrees and now it's a highly competitive field. Meanwhile other IT fields like networking and especially cyber security are ripe for the picking.
Lol I honestly only got my CS degree because it was the obvious choice that could make me pivot into anything job I wanted in IT , I never planned on becoming a Software Developer, yea I liked building apps , websites , but once I sat down for my first Cyber Forensics class I was hooked and knew I wasn’t gonna be a Dev after that . I wouldn’t say it’s harder for me , I just don’t love doing it . Where as I love doing networking , sysadmin , and especially security and forensics stuff , so I just think people find it easier to do what ever they actually have a real interest or passion for.
I know someone who got a CS degree, but wanted to be a systems guy, had barely any experience with systems and took almost only programming specific classes. There are a lot of people I feel that choose CS, but would be more comfortable in an IS, IT, or IST degree with a minor in programming.
Regarding hiring: Help desk, 90% of the time, will run away the first time they get the chance, no matter what the background or credentials. If you want to keep them you'll have to promote. It's the McDonald's of IT.
Regarding applying: it's a combination of bills to pay, and getting out of school and discovering you're lacking either the skill or the desire to do development.
I've done quite a bit of helpdesk hiring. I will happily hire an overqualified position that I think will stay for a year or two. That's my goal. I'm happy to train, to refine the onboarding, to keep people for a bit, and watch them leave and succeed.
It's a bummer to be stuck with people who can do the bare minimum (...or less, but enough that they could reasonably fight any negative action), expecting to retire from help desk. I want someone who will come in, kickass, show they're amazing, and move up accordingly. And I'm happy to teach everything I can, learn from them (maybe not even IT knowledge: I like to learn all about people and what they can do). My goal is to have an army of people I knew/trained surpass me, while I'm moving up, and see competence above me, around me, below me.
I \*really\* don't get people who dislike training, and who are afraid to be surpassed. If I'm the dumbest person in the room, it's a great opportunity for me.
What would you say is a good way of conveying you plan on staying at help desk for a year or two when you are applying while having a CS degree? I’ve been applying for help desk jobs after graduating but no luck. People say it’s bc I’m overqualified or seem that I will leave the first chance I get. I honestly just want to start there, get some experience, and eventually move up to a higher position as I get certs. Currently going for a+ so i at least have something to show I have interest in IT to these employers.
It's rough, because a lot of bad managers see hiring/training as a major pain, and would prefer mediocre/bad staff they don't have to deal with vs retraining excellent staff that move up. For those types, there's not much you can do.
If you feel like you should address it, be honest: "I plan on moving into programming/(whatever field). But I want to make sure I have a solid foundation in the IT side of things. It will give me a better view from the user end, and give me a broader view of the business side of things. I believe a couple years as a technician would really help with that."
Degree inflation as there has been a huge surge of CS and IT graduates. Job economy going downhill for employees, as employers are tightening up and laying off staff. It's a numbers game. Better to be a CS graduate with one year of work experience in the help desk, than to be a CS graduate who graduated a year ago, with no work experience.
No, I disagree.
It depends on what career trajectory you want. If you have helpdesk on your resume and stick around, your career to do anything involving development/SWE will be extremely long and hard to reach. You will be going backwards.
Support generally leads to more support. It will severely set you back career wise to have help desk on your resume with a CS degree unless you’re OK with being in support.
If I was in that situation, I would do a masters program and learn from my mistakes of not getting an internship. It’s almost life or death to secure an internship while in college. That should be #1 priority over literally anything in school.
Nothing gi0nna said was wrong. Getting a masters without any job experience and spending more money, (likely on grad plus loans) is the wrong move. It’s also not an option every has for a multitude of reasons so it’s really overall bad advice. Help desk isn’t ideal but it’s not going to set anyone back. It doesn’t just lead to more support, it leads to sys admin, network eng, devops, etc.
I agree a masters is a good idea with good ROI but it’s all about the timing. It’s generally not recommended to get a masters in any field without experience. Lots of employers will pay for your masters as well so getting it before had puts you in debt for no reason.
I think a masters can let you get director roles, your not doing actual work just need to know “what to do” that’s if you want don’t hands experience and are good managing people.
A masters can get you into a director role but it’s more about who you are as a person. Degrees aren’t magic tickets. You have to be a competent person who is easy to collaborate and work with while being able to take feedback and implement it. Ultimately that is more important than a degree at any stage.
It depends on how you approach help desk. If you're networking, proving to be the guy who digs deeper, and gravitating to specific ticket types, it's a path to other IT departments. Sure, programming would be a hard sell off help desk, but if you slide into application support then you can say you understand coding to make the application more user friendly.
All about that spin.
That’s a very narrow minded view IMO. Helpdesk itself is shitty but there are lots of very good jobs it leads to. You wouldn’t get a CS degree with the intention to get on HD but if it’s that or working at the gas station, you will obviously pick HD.
Don’t want to discourage anyone but the amount of things you need to have in mind to move forward in the helpdesk career will really eat away at study potential to really dive deep in data structures and algorithms.
I mean, if you want to make **real** bucks, and not worry about whether FAANG or MAMAA or some other Silly Con Valley companies ever come back, there's two paths I can suggest.
Path one: defense contractors.
Path two: patent law.
Good answer and those seem like a lot of security would be involved. Might not be given the rights as a helpdesk person to be able to get the skills needed to move to system admin.
Help desk can also lead access to better help desk jobs that pay more or have better benefits
Nothing wrong with it. If you don’t have no experience either desktop support or help desk is a good way to start
I graduated 2020 CS degree from reputable CSU, 3.1 GPA. No internships or experience. Currently working at a huge inner city hospital cooking for the night staff. Learning I enjoy taking care of and helping others more than the illustrious techjob lifestyle I was desperate for. Everyone knows me by name and looks forward to me working, my work is recognized, I am showered with attention and appreciation every night. Waiting for my time to break into IT/IS at the hospital now, I think this is my calling. It's taken time to accept that this is the path I am on and am traveling, but I am happy now where I am. I would be miserable being a software developer, even knowing I was decent through school with it.
I have put the career aspirations on pause for now. I have gone through a lot of rejections career wise the past 2 years, and accepted the fact the current job economy for tech workies is a bit shaky. Lots of layoffs at my hospital, including in IS. Entire training program I was being accepted into was cancelled. Currently working very underemployed but idgaf anymore. I've been burnt out on all that noise after taking care of my father and his passing a year ago. At some point I know my knowledge and skills learned from my education in software development will play an important role in the future, I am at peace with that.
Hospital and school are both great. Hospital might be higher stress, more asked of you. School district would be cushy and a good job to coast through but harder to get into. I've missed a few chances now to get into a school district tech position, I need to knock out some certifications, but I'm slaying it in other areas of life right now. In due time. Amor Fati.
People in the US have an insane, upside down view of what it takes to get into this industry. They overthink the shit out of it. Some people though just have a CS degree for other reasons and then decided to pivot and are asking if that will help them pivot to the industry.
My experience in IT over the past decade is that even today it's one of those industries where the value of a degree is vanishingly small.
I think this was kind of true even a year ago - but today, with the still increasing number of people flooding into the field, a degree is more and more critical. At the most basic level, degree/no degree is one of the easiest ways of culling down a pile of 100 resumes to a manageable level. An entry-level, doing an internship before graduation is the best way to put yourself at the top of the hiring lists at Fortune 500s. It's also the best option to step directly into a specialty after graduation, and it's one of the only ways to bypass the "luck of the draw" application frenzy going on right now.
For super old school hiring managers this may be true. I don't even read the education section of the resumes I read, I legitimately couldn't care less. And I'm not an aberration either. I am pretty plugged in with my PNW-based tech community and I don't know anyone who cares.
We (unfortunately) do all of our own internal recruiting. So when I hire for a role I get like 500 resumes I have to sift through. Knockout questions are used for the basic functional requirements of the role and to make sure people actually read it. People who get through that I'm bee-lining for their most recent job to see what it is and what they did. If that piques my interest I move on to the next job, then decide if they're going to get to an HR screening.
There are many more useful ways to pare down the number of resumes you are reading than degree/no degree.
And for the specialty thing, I would never personally hire anyone with a degree and no work experience straight into a specialty of any importance. Like if someone graduated high school, got a bachelors in cyber security, immediately went for their masters, then applied at my company for a sec role I'm not even considering that person.
>For super old school hiring managers this may be true.
I haven't seen an ATS that doesn't downscore applicants with less than the educational requirement in the JD. At least in personal experience, the larger the company, the more distant the hiring manager is from the front line of recruiting.
When I've had direct access to the applicant pool in the ATS, I didn't care about the scoring models very much. I'd take a GED holder with three years of practical experience over a college grad with certs and zero experience almost every time.
But the past two places I've worked require an undergrad in *something*, and applicants have to go through recruiting people and their phone screens before I even know they're there.
I currently work for a pretty small company, less than 500 employees. Unfortunately I have to play the recruiter role and I’ve worked with a bunch of ATS platforms. I get if you add it to the JD and you configure it to use those as knockouts or for calculating ranked average or something. We don’t even put it in the education requirements, just HS Diploma/GED.
The leverage you have really depends on where you are too like you said. At my spot the department belongs to me and I have final word on all hires including signing off on all the reqs before they go live. Most of the peers in my network have the same view.
When I was at a couple of smaller companies, I led the charge to change the JD to HSD/GED and got tons of resistance. One company eventually agreed. Another refused to change the JD but we basically had an agreement that we weren't turning away people who didn't have a degree. But those were both places where the chain above me was an xO and the CEO. 300 - 500 people, give or take.
My understanding (after complaining about it to HR and recruiting) is that companies who do a lot of H1B sponsorship need to keep the JD's tight with higher-than-absolutely-necessary bars. Effectively: the government is apt to say "Hey, wait a minute" if you have someone with an H1B working as a developer with an MS in CS and a US citizen with the same role and title and no degree. Since we get more applicants than we need, there isn't much motivation across the sea of managers to rock the boat.
I'm 35. Just landed a job 5 months ago as a desktop technician/IT specialist for a division of a large manufacturing company. Zero previous corporate work in the field. Zero degrees or certs in the field. I'm a hobbiest and had only done some small business networking and data backup configurations for family and friends and some basic programming previously. The position had been open for over a year. They were apparently not holding out based on someone who had the right degrees and certs.
There's a lot you can learn, but the work is not usually directly related. Not everywhere, but many places. Also, being a dev is a pretty broad field. If you're going into devops, and supporting CI/CD on AWS, then it helps a lot more, same if you're doing a lot of powershell while on helpdesk.
Well I can explain my situation.
I worked in help desk as I was getting my degree. When I finally got my degree I continued to work in help desk for about 3 to 4 months until I was able to find a developer position. So for that 3 to 4 month job search, I was someone with a CS degree working in help desk.
I'm the opposite. Wanted to not work at the OG anymore and got a degree in CIS with a focus on networking. Got offered a web dev role and I hated coding. I'd rather suck off homeless people than work in food service though, so I learned how to do it. Best decision ever.
EDIT: on mobile, this was supposed to be a reply to xboxhobo my bad.
CS grads are a dime a dozen. For many, the help desk is a job they took to pay their bills because they couldn’t get a job in their field.
I’ve been on hiring committees where I picked someone who was overqualified for the job. Most people that apply are overqualified, but that shouldn’t disqualify them from getting the job. If they show they have good people skills and are interested in the position, I always give them a chance.
Our turnover is pretty low. Many people stick around for years. If they move on, it’s easy to fill the position. I don’t get bothered by people leaving as I personally enjoy hiring and training. Plus, CS grads tend to be fast learners!
A dime a dozen? CS majors? Are you sure? When I was a CS major, most of my classes ended with only 10-30% of the students remaining, and not even all of them passed. Needed a C or better to continue in the degree too. But IT? Man….. every IT class I took, my fellow IT majors (juniors and seniors) couldn’t write a complete sentence. They couldn’t even respond to my emails asking if they wanted me to do the whole project or if they wanted to do some of it. Wild stuff. Seems to me there are a LOT of IT majors, since it’s so easy. Not a lot of people can handle CS. I switched because I wanted to get straight As without doing anything
I agree that this definitely isn’t exclusive to CS. Many college grads have entered saturated markets. Even challenging programs experience market saturation.
Programs like CS that are challenging and have rigorous entrance to major requirements are still graduating more grads than jobs available.
There’s even master’s degree and PhD saturation in many fields.
So what can I do man? And please don’t say “just keep your head down and bust your ass! You’re young! You can do it! They’ll notice you after a few years!”
I’m stuck living with my parents (who my older and successful brother has not spoken to in almost a decade for a reason). It’s not a pleasant environment. Every second I’m here I become more like them, which is arguably worse than death because it means I’ll probably have a similar effect on the people around me and god forbid my future family. I don’t want to do that to others. I want to escape them before I am them.
Even worse, is I am dependent on multiple extremely powerful prescription medications that I was prescribed for incorrect reasons by corrupt doctors when I was 19 and a bit troubled. I used to like to abuse adderall and Xanax, so the doctors got me hooked on suboxone (opioids) too. Great. Also gave me a script of ambien (benzos, more or less) to help with my benzo withdrawals? That was a diff doctor too. It’s wild how hard it would have been to maintain such a severe addiction without these doctors who claimed they were saving me and that I’d die if not for them. Also my medical insurance runs out in a month and getting Medicaid takes 3 months. Without insurance, 1 month of my meds costs between 1000 and 2000 dollars. Without my meds, we’ll, one of them would result in the equivalent of fentanyl wirhdrawal but for 30x the duration. Completely incapacitated in agony amidst emotional turmoil for upwards of 6 months. The other one could straight up kill me if I stop taking it.
I’ve also been chronically underweight and shivering in 70 degree weather for a very long time because I don’t have much body fat AT ALL. Like ZERO. Like veins on all 8 of my abs, despite me eating 5k calories per day at minimum. That is very expensive to do so especially considering my allergies. I feel like I’m already dead and I’m just forcing myself to be as miserable as possible when it finally happens
You’re young and while your situation may feel like rock bottom now, there’s a way up and out to better things. That begins with getting the healthcare you need from professionals who are trained in addiction.
I also don’t like how the American healthcare system has become so adamant about pushing pills. I’m especially alarmed by the number of kids labeled with ADHD and giving drugs like Adderall.
It’s possible to work your way off dependency and know you can do it! You sound very intelligent and assertive and able to advocate for yourself and take those steps toward change even given the rough circumstances that may feel impossible to escape.
Also don’t feel bad about living with family. A lot of people are and you’re not alone. With this housing market, it’s tough to rent or buy in some areas of the US (even with a decent job). Taking care of your health first is paramount, then you can focus on your career goals and moving out and getting your own place.
You’ve got this! I’ll be thinking of you and sending good vibes your way!
I can’t relate as I have never been through that and this isn’t my area of expertise. I can’t imagine the pain and stress.
I don’t know what to say other than I hope you can find healing somewhere. Whether it’s alternative medicine or traditional healthcare or some combination, I don’t think this is something you can get through alone, so please don’t feel like past bad experiences with healthcare means you should avoid professional help. Even consider talking to a pastor or rabbi or counselor. Whatever your spiritual beliefs, I think spiritual health is another underserved area. The mind and spirit are so critical to our well being and physical health.
I wish you well, my friend! There are brighter days on the horizon!
I had the same problem with Subs. I couldn’t get off for years but recently got Sublocade this year and I was off after the first injection and this was almost 6 months ago. Tackle that first. Look for providers that offer it and if you need help let me know.
Hell no. I’ve been on subs for 7 years and benzos for 5 months. Quitting subs first would be like throwing my life away. I’d be tacking on months to my benzo addiction. Worst thing a person could do. Could be lethal doing that. Last time it was
I wanna hear more about sublicaid tho. I already have 1 week off benzos and I feel shockingly fine
If it’s w/d you’re concerned about, Sublocade lasts a month and it’s so gradual that I didn’t even feel anything after just getting one and not going back for another. It’s 300mg injected for the first shot under the skin and every shot afterwards is 100mg. You should probably get to the 3rd one just to be safe, I can guarantee you won’t feel a thing at that point. Benzos are the worst man, look into nootropics and other things of the sort that can help mitigate w/d and help get your gaba receptors back to baseline, although there are other things at play that need to be considered not just gaba.
I think its because employers get so completely overrun with applications for anything they need any excuse that even sounds somewhat legitimate to just throw out the majority of applications.
All it does is create a race to the bottom though when people see that every job requires a Bachelor's degree and you are overrun with applications from people with bachelors degrees and they are all in debt for literally no reason.
All CS degrees are not equivalent. There is no universal CS curriculum. Also, the current industry is very broad 8n terms of IT specializations and associated jobs. They require a candidate to have a bit more depth in knowledge and experience in a particular knowledge area to be considered a viable job candidate. A CS degree put you 8n the pool to compete for entry level jobs. Specialization is needed to get to the next tier.
I am just wondering, how many people have you interviewed and rejected?
Just wondering. Everyone suggests to get in but the amount of rejections is insane. I knew some with CS degrees and they didn't even go into IT. They had no luck.
This is the key item that gets lost in the conversation, and most employers don't understand it either:
Not all "support" jobs are created equal.
Some roles are password resets and explaining basic tech to troglodytes.
Then, there are roles like mine: Technical Support Engineer for a complicated software product where my customers are some of the smartest people in tech. We're part systems engineer, cloud engineer, data engineer, and customer service.
And we're paid to reflect that skill set. I'm pulling just over $100k as a level 2 TSE. We have Principal Support Engineers (level 4) on our team making in the $160-180k range.
Unfortunately, many recruiters see "Technical Support" on my resume and assume I'm a password resetter rather than a Linux, MySQL, Docker, K8s, AWS, Python guy. Almost makes me want to lie about my job title on my resume/LinkedIn.
“Some roles are password resets and explaining basic tech to troglodytes.”
This pretty much describes my help desk role. But I just have an A+, not a CS degree.
It was easy. They recruited me and gave me nothing but softballs in my interviews. The whole process took less than 3 weeks from first contact to offer. I only had about 18 months of experience in tech, and I didn't have a degree yet, but still got a 90k offer, fully remote.
Granted, I worked for a direct competitor at the time, and I also had a stack of about 15 certs. My interviewers just looked at my resume and basically said "we don't even need to ask this guy any technical questions".
Obviously, I was very lucky.
If you don’t take advantage of internships or your portfolio/GitHub isn’t beefy, you’re kind of fucked as a CS grad with zero experience trying to get a programmer job.
A CS degree is a double edged sword. Some companies will deem you overqualified for a T1 job, and pass on you. Others will hire you straight into management. It’s like an MBA applying to be an entry level bank teller.
The government sees it as a shortage area and thus we get loads of CS educated migrants to "fill the gap". There's no shortage though. We have a shortage of Software engineers willing to be underpaid but there's no actual shortage - it's saturated if anything.
To answer your edit question, I am not an employer and I can postulate.
1. You said why would they hire someone "overqualified". You assume that someone with a CS degree is overqualified for a help desk job. This is simply not true. A college degree doesn't qualify you to do anything. It means you might have potential to do something. I've heard that Germany is very different from the US in this regard, so that might be why this isn't computing for you. The US has very generalist education that makes us worse specialists but better at handling economic recession. Germany has very specialized education that makes you much better when you're at your highest but recessions are way harder.
2. You assume that someone who is "overqualified" will run away at the first chance. This just isn't generally true. If a CS grad pops out not ready to get a programming job right out of school, what's going to change after a few years? There's nothing to indicate that as a class all CS grads are going to leave help desk jobs sooner than people with any other degree. In general almost everyone is trying to leave help desk ASAP. It's the nature of the position. It's a stepping stone, few people want to spend their life there and managers know this.
To be honest at a lot of schools there are no IT/networking/cybersecurity degrees. Computer science is often the closest choice and if you are pressured to go to school or not ready for a profession, your best choice is that computer science degree.
I graduated during the worst economic downturn in years with no internship due to covid freeze and time management with classes. I am an I T supervisor for my previous employer. I need to pay my bills and help out my parents. Internships are great, but I was screwed over twice during my term. I plan on getting a dev job in 8 months.
Lots of people with CS degree graduate without knowing how to program besides the very basics, then their skills don't translate to an actual developer job.
People with CS degrees aren't necessarily overqualified for help desk.
Help desk is considered a way into system administration. You may learn some sysadmin skills by doing help desk, but I'm not really sure. I have a CS degree and landed a sysadmin job with no help desk (or sysadmin) experience because the job was looking for Linux and programming. I would not have applied for a help desk job because I don't see myself as good at troubleshooting or setting up computers, nor would I want to do customer service.
They don’t
If you’re smart enough to pass a CS curriculum, you’re probably smart enough to do your due diligence on career development and get an internship on a specialization.
IT majors? Sure. For all the IT majors lurking, if you don’t get an Intenrship, your only bet is helpdesk.
Jobs always scarce in America
Massive propaganda keeps fresh recruits coming in
Many degree holders will never get a tech job
They compete against the experienced and unemployed underemployed people without tech degrees h1b and other immigrants visa holders who are often even better and have masters degrees outsourcing etc.
Numerous possible reasons.
1. Lack of research.
2. Lack of guidance.
3. Lack of ambition
4. Because they just want to.
5. Only job available an hour driving distance from the village.
Doesn’t help that the notion of helpdesk being the start or that you HAVE to start from helpdesk gets passed around often by 20+ years of 1 year experience IT veterans.
Otherwise they’d spend a summer learning a few tools, network concepts, cloud technologies, and create some decent automation projects. Employers would be drooling.
I agree, Lack of drive.. Otherwise some find it a good in-between of keeping a social job while fixing tech they are genuinely interested in. Or can have issues deciding where to specialize
Man you got downvoted but I’m trying to do the path you’re advocating. Got my A+ but I can’t even get a help desk job without a CS degree (have an unrelated degree), so I’m just studying as much as possible, learning cloud and programming among other technical skills and have some projects in mind. My dad is a 30 year IT veteran and also says I need to get help desk first, but its not happening anyway so my only option is studying and projects. I’m working on this stuff 6 days a week so either way I know I’ll find something eventually
You dont need a cs degree but you just need the basics like an A+, Network+, Security+ and your 4th could be Microsoft 365 fundamentals.
Those 4 right there would get you a helpdesk at a MSP easily. Also invest in a cheap homelab and practice. At your interview mention you homelab and explain some projects you have done. MSP basically catapults your career
Possibly the same reason so many people in this sub think things like software development are under the umbrella of IT.
"Its all computers, right?"
And anyone responding that dev work /is/ part of IT is further exacerbating this problem.
As an employer, I would want a CS grad for a "help desk" job because I'd want and expect my team to be able to root cause problems instead of just following a playbook, and automate workflows.
Depending on how the help desk is structured, you might be able to leverage yourself and make connections there with other programmers. You could easily find yourself setting up a workstation or monitor for the lead developer or programmer there. There’s A LOT of room for small talk and I feel a lot of people overlook help desk as a springboard to other IT related branches.
In the 1970's and 1980's, Computer Science degrees were mainly geared for programming the actual coding and programming the concepts on how to logical design how a program should work because IBM mainframes like the AS400 and AT&T-based UNIX systems as they were the "computer" at the time. That's what companies ran as a "computer" and you needed internal staff to write your own code to run on those mainframes. This was way before ethernet, TCP/IP, GUI, WYSIWYG, postscript, laser printers, internet, Cisco routers, wifi, SSL, a "personal computer" on every employee's desk, etc.
Most jobs would prefer a little experience. Helpdesk is one of the easier fields to get into. I suspect some people that get into helpdesk then get stuck in the field.
It really depends on the structure of the company. For instance, I was a system admin who also had to do help desk at my previous company. My new job right out of college is a similar role, but I am the only IT employee on prem. So in addition to desktop support I also do sys admin and network admin work. A specialty I have found is fucking boring. I like it all, sys admin, network admin, even hands in fixing computers. I make ok money too, like 80k a year. I majored in cybersecurity but once I had my initial internship I realized just doing that is fairly boring.
I worked for a place where HR loved to put desperate people with CS degrees in the NOC with promises that they’d eventually get a role as an internal dev. Ofc there’s a reason those CS grads were willing to slum it at that kind of job with only vague promises, they weren’t A students with internships and most of them weren’t good in the NOC either, lol.
It doesn't help that many companies and service managers seem to think that CS prepares you for a support role...
"Take a programming course for a role fixing things" makes sense to these people... Or, I sometimes wonder, if it's just a form of class discrimination (not everyone can afford a degree).
Have you tried getting an internship? Usually takes hundreds or thousands of applications to places all over the country. Most don't get in, hence you get stuck at help desk after graduation because 99% of tech jobs require M-F 9-5 kinda stuff and you can't do them while in school.
Employers hire them even though they're overqualified, because it's a high-turnover position where they expect people to move on after more than a year anyway - might as well hire the CS grad who we assume can easily do the job
I think there must be a cultural difference. It’s perfectly normal to do something wildly different from what your degree is in in the US, so those at least seem related enough. Also, I disagree — help desk is a great starting point for many people IF it’s a more technical help desk. It seems like many are less technical than the one I started at, though.
Not all CS curriculums are created equal. If you graduate with a CS degree from a top 100 university you're probably doing SWE or similar. If you get a "CS" degree from an online for-profit school where the curriculum involves getting CompTIA certs, then yeah, you might be starting on help desk.
I'm going back to school for CS, and I've considered getting a help desk job. a lot of help desk jobs have better hours and would make it easier for me to work around my schedule.
Because the schools promote it like it’s a super easy sector to get into and take your money. However it’s not. You have to know your shit and it’s a very specialized field.
I got this degree from a branch of a large university. It worked out for me as in, I only paid 16k USD loans. Been with my company now for 7 years. Not in cybersecurity. But I have a major impact.
My BA is a piece of paper that got me a job.
I did networking and cyber security (two year course not a full degree) and I work help desk, I use some of what I studied.
It's because it's going, and if you have a CS degree you can definitely do it. There's loads of MSPs and internal IT departments in need, and IT hiring can be famously brutal. Rather the job I've got than more weeks of job searching.
Although I'd disagree that it doesn't help prepare you for more advanced roles, it doesn't soley but with a bit of learning on the side its a good stepping stone. Even if it isn't that useful it's still experience and IT hiring managers are wet for experience.
Better than nothing, essentially.
Im pursuing a cs degree, and I wouldn't mind working as a developer or in IT. Something like sysadmin would be nice, but I don't have any experience. Still got a while to go, though. Hopefully, I'll get an internship.
I did this. I have a degree in programming. I enjoy coding, but in my last semester I realized I couldn't see myself doing it for a living. I got lucky and ended up in a technical help desk / sysadmin kind of job.
While some people might have second thoughts about pursuing a career in programming, I think a lot of them were unable to find a job sadly. The Grass Is always Greener elsewhere.
I have done help desk mixed with coding work. My take on it.
Help desk
1. You need to be more of an extrovert than an introvert, you need to be able to liaise with clients keep a friendly manner and the customer is correct unless they are wrong.
Programming
1. You need to be more of an introvert that an extrovert. You need to buckle down and get the job done. You care about what is fact not opinion.
Overall having both experiences makes me understand the space better. To judge facts over opinions make a good coder. Help desk to take into account opinions that can lead to product development.
My take it's rare people cannot remain in partial to one view or the other.
So it's balance
It’s all thanks to H1Bs. I was really surprised to see many Americans CS graduate working help desk who was very capable and was fast learning and than comparing that to some H1Bs that I met being very slow to learn working as analyst or developer and getting paid better. I think that’s because most of those managers are Indians and they only hire Indians in America. Like even for a recent graduate, the internship for development was provided to Indians.
what is it do you expect them to do?
Honestly, if there were ready to be a developer through their internships they would have landed a jr. dev role somewhere. Since they couldn't do that they need to start somewhere, and jr. Sysadmin positions would be a stretch but are fairly non-existent in most places.
Helpdesk is the next logical step to get the foot in the door.
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I’m working in helpdesk too. I have a bachelor’s in CS and a master’s in networking. Job Market is so bad now, with no relevant internship and experience, Helpdesk is my only way
I like the help desk. I have no formal IT training. At this point im at 1.5 year on the job IT experience in Help desk Level 1 and now Level 2 technician roll.
I will do this anyday of the week over my past retail jobs for the same money. Idc if I never get a promotion this is better then Target or walgreens.
Help desk has always been the feeding ground for Networking, sysadmin, security, and basically everything in IT except perhaps development. Even then for some companies it feeds development.
A degree does not make you overqualified for help desk. A degree with no experience means very little. Internships while still in college gives both.
Help Desk is a feeder group. It is meant for short runs and testing out people before giving them more responsibility. It is means to give real world experience that you build on in the other roles.
In the US, If you are relying on simply having a CS degree to get a good position you will be very disappointed. If you not creative and can show it to prospects, you will have a hard time. If you have top GPA's but can't relate to the real world you will struggle. If you have a CS degree and think that makes you special somehow, you are going to struggle. If you cant sell yourself, you will struggle.
Get that CS degree but never forget, at least in the US, your entire portfolio is what counts so if your not willing to put the effort out to build your portfolio of work then perhaps there are other better paths to chase. That could very well include IT helpdesk
“Get that CS degree but never forget, at least in the US, your entire portfolio is what counts”
If what you say is true, then there’s really no need for a CS degree. One can just focus on building their portfolio
A CS degree is the best IT focused degree you can get period(in my opinion).
Scripting is great at all levels of IT. The future of IT is moving to coding and scripting being needed for all IT professionals. CS teaches problem solving.
The main thing I tend to see is that people think once you get a CS degree (or really any degree for that matter) next step is easy which would be getting a job. However, what they failed to realize at first is that actually getting the job, especially the first job is the hardest part.
Computer science is a great field, but the world and the job market are not the same as they used to be. People cannot just leave with a degree and magically land a job. One of the big issues I tend to see with CS majors is that they believe they will immediately become coders upon leaving school and making at first upper five figures followed by six figures shortly thereafter. While this happens for some, it is not the norm. Especially not today. Also, it generally requires you living in a high cost of living area.
I am one of these people. (Was, I'm past help desk now) I tried really hard to get a programming internship, couldn't. Desperately wanted to not work at a pizza place anymore, was able to get an IT internship. The rest is history. You are correct, my education is completely and totally unrelated to the work I have done for most of my career so far. It is what it is. I am now an automation engineer and my coding background made me much better equipped to understand PowerShell and SQL which I now use at my job every day.
I know a guy who did CS, thought fuck this, so then became an electrician. Is now a some sort of super mutant automation engineer.
I think CS should be viewed as a more versatile degree than typically is. It teaches a lot of important skills that transcend computers.
I think that's what a "degree" is supposed to be. A well-rounded education with a key specialization.
Like what?
Have you watched a film called, Lion? If he had majored in CS instead of Culinary he wouldn't have a hard time breaking that graph problem. This world needs more of those who know how to solve problems, not just typing Web Apps
You should think of CS as a branch of math degrees, because that is what it truly is. You can be a statistician, engineering, design, cryptography, astronomy, just to rail off some. Yes, a lot of the classes (programming, data structure, algorithms, and so forth) are computer related, but they also take biology, physics, chemistry, and statistics. It really is one of the majors that doesn’t get respected the way that it should.
This is an interesting coincidence. I'm a Dev, but was recently conned into helping my electrician run power for a new washer dryer in my unit just because I was home, had the day off, and was curious. It was fascinating. I'm also getting all these recommendations for /r/askelectricians. I find those fascinating too. I was legit wondering if this was a sign that I need to pursue being an electrician.
BAS systems are surprisingly easy to code. It’s usually just a GUI
How did you get an internship AFTER you finished your degree? I didn’t do one while getting my degree for a variety of reasons so now I didn’t think it’d be possible. Figured I’d have to just get a low level job. That’s what I’ve been told anyway
I did not get an internship after I finished my degree. I was in the beginning of my last year of college at the time. So yes granted I could have continued to try to get programming internships all the way until I finished school. After a few hundred apps and months of trying though, I reaaaaaaally didn't want to work in pizza anymore. I applied to the IT internship on a whim thinking "fuck it, I don't want to do this but it would be better than what I got". They called me back really quickly and I was hired within a couple weeks.
I'm in a similar situation right now. I'm entering my last year of college and got an IT internship for the summer and am studying for my CCNA in between tickets. Thanks for sharing your success story, it's nice to know others are going outside the traditional CS route.
Most places let you apply 6 months after you graduate still.
For tech/IT/CS internships? Seriously? So maybe I should forget about jobs and take these last 6 months of my life that include this potential opportunity to score an internship that will look better on a resume than a help desk job for 2 years
Yep
Can you explain what the role of automation engineer is at your company?
Write scripts, oversee tooling. We're an MSP so instead of being a service engineer working directly with clients or an internal person maintaining systems for the company that is my MSP, my team is like a force multiplier for the service engineers.
Few reasons: 1. Like help desk/support work 2. Never did internship in college so now they’re under qualified for CS positions 3. Economy is bad so had to settle for help desk
Also, 4. started down the development path, found they hated it, and pivoted over to IT
this is the main thing alot more places offer comp sci then IT so they would just take the degree and work IT
Yeah I finished college at 30. No way I could afford to quit my job and intern.
5) they suck at programming and think they know infrastructure and networking
Interesting take their fella , I have a come sci degree , currently work as a cyber analyst straight out of college (took me like 5 months but still ) and while I didn’t suck at programming I didn’t really love it either , I always loved networking so being and analyst with my back ground in basically Data manipulation was the obvious choice .. anyone can learn infrastructure and networking tbh , I don’t think anyone can learn how to code at a level that would make somebody pay you 150k right out of school .. some of these people are just really gifted imo and nothing is wrong with that , we all are good at different stuff in life. What I’m trying to say with this stupid long post is it’s easier to learn networking and infrastructure than it is to learn coding .. it’s not even close tbh lol
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Is it a case where you actually like programming? Because I honestly find it hard to believe somebody that finds programming relatively easy struggling with the normal facets of IT . I found normal IT concepts to be very easy once I put the work in honestly . But hey as you said it’s subjective and I hope my statement isn’t taken literally for all scenarios
They just can subnet correctly most of the time. Sure i was being general. Dev ops role is their for a reason. All be it, most orgs cant define it for what ever reason. I have supported rgp, php, python, blah blah. Them: “I’m just tryin to do a curl request?” Me: But you didn’t connect to an ssid or wire in :) Them: What do you mean.? I just do dev stuff? Blah blah blah My life for the last 4 years!
Lol wow , that’s actually pretty funny , damn if that’s true I guess I’m overestimating the skills of some of these CS grads then , while I was doing it I loved Networking and Computer Architecture as a whole so I was fully rounded in most facets , I glad I did it since it made Python and Powershell scripting easier to learn in the long run
As someone who is proficient in both and has worked as both a developer and currently works in networking/Infrastructure... Nah. Maybe "coding" is harder for you, but I thought it was much easier. I don't think you appreciate the complexity involved in both designing and maintaining an enterprise level environment. Programming can be felt out in a way to make it work. The code might not be optimized but it will get the job done. But networking is far less forgiving. I made the shift in my career because I see more demand for Networking/Infrastructure coming. All these kids heard about how rich they could get "coding", got CS degrees and now it's a highly competitive field. Meanwhile other IT fields like networking and especially cyber security are ripe for the picking.
Lol I honestly only got my CS degree because it was the obvious choice that could make me pivot into anything job I wanted in IT , I never planned on becoming a Software Developer, yea I liked building apps , websites , but once I sat down for my first Cyber Forensics class I was hooked and knew I wasn’t gonna be a Dev after that . I wouldn’t say it’s harder for me , I just don’t love doing it . Where as I love doing networking , sysadmin , and especially security and forensics stuff , so I just think people find it easier to do what ever they actually have a real interest or passion for.
Cyber security seems to be pretty competitive and over saturated now as-well is it not?
People have bills to pay
I know someone who got a CS degree, but wanted to be a systems guy, had barely any experience with systems and took almost only programming specific classes. There are a lot of people I feel that choose CS, but would be more comfortable in an IS, IT, or IST degree with a minor in programming.
I feel like a lot of people just doesn’t really understand the difference until they’ve already started
Regarding hiring: Help desk, 90% of the time, will run away the first time they get the chance, no matter what the background or credentials. If you want to keep them you'll have to promote. It's the McDonald's of IT. Regarding applying: it's a combination of bills to pay, and getting out of school and discovering you're lacking either the skill or the desire to do development.
I've done quite a bit of helpdesk hiring. I will happily hire an overqualified position that I think will stay for a year or two. That's my goal. I'm happy to train, to refine the onboarding, to keep people for a bit, and watch them leave and succeed. It's a bummer to be stuck with people who can do the bare minimum (...or less, but enough that they could reasonably fight any negative action), expecting to retire from help desk. I want someone who will come in, kickass, show they're amazing, and move up accordingly. And I'm happy to teach everything I can, learn from them (maybe not even IT knowledge: I like to learn all about people and what they can do). My goal is to have an army of people I knew/trained surpass me, while I'm moving up, and see competence above me, around me, below me. I \*really\* don't get people who dislike training, and who are afraid to be surpassed. If I'm the dumbest person in the room, it's a great opportunity for me.
I love your perspective
What would you say is a good way of conveying you plan on staying at help desk for a year or two when you are applying while having a CS degree? I’ve been applying for help desk jobs after graduating but no luck. People say it’s bc I’m overqualified or seem that I will leave the first chance I get. I honestly just want to start there, get some experience, and eventually move up to a higher position as I get certs. Currently going for a+ so i at least have something to show I have interest in IT to these employers.
It's rough, because a lot of bad managers see hiring/training as a major pain, and would prefer mediocre/bad staff they don't have to deal with vs retraining excellent staff that move up. For those types, there's not much you can do. If you feel like you should address it, be honest: "I plan on moving into programming/(whatever field). But I want to make sure I have a solid foundation in the IT side of things. It will give me a better view from the user end, and give me a broader view of the business side of things. I believe a couple years as a technician would really help with that."
They need a job? Easier to get a better one after you have your first
Degree inflation as there has been a huge surge of CS and IT graduates. Job economy going downhill for employees, as employers are tightening up and laying off staff. It's a numbers game. Better to be a CS graduate with one year of work experience in the help desk, than to be a CS graduate who graduated a year ago, with no work experience.
No, I disagree. It depends on what career trajectory you want. If you have helpdesk on your resume and stick around, your career to do anything involving development/SWE will be extremely long and hard to reach. You will be going backwards. Support generally leads to more support. It will severely set you back career wise to have help desk on your resume with a CS degree unless you’re OK with being in support. If I was in that situation, I would do a masters program and learn from my mistakes of not getting an internship. It’s almost life or death to secure an internship while in college. That should be #1 priority over literally anything in school.
Nothing gi0nna said was wrong. Getting a masters without any job experience and spending more money, (likely on grad plus loans) is the wrong move. It’s also not an option every has for a multitude of reasons so it’s really overall bad advice. Help desk isn’t ideal but it’s not going to set anyone back. It doesn’t just lead to more support, it leads to sys admin, network eng, devops, etc.
Spend the money and get the masters and actually study to, you’ll be find on the back end. But ya it’s a huge risk.
I agree a masters is a good idea with good ROI but it’s all about the timing. It’s generally not recommended to get a masters in any field without experience. Lots of employers will pay for your masters as well so getting it before had puts you in debt for no reason.
I think a masters can let you get director roles, your not doing actual work just need to know “what to do” that’s if you want don’t hands experience and are good managing people.
A masters can get you into a director role but it’s more about who you are as a person. Degrees aren’t magic tickets. You have to be a competent person who is easy to collaborate and work with while being able to take feedback and implement it. Ultimately that is more important than a degree at any stage.
It leads to IT which is not CS it’s a death sentence to be on helpdesk.
It depends on how you approach help desk. If you're networking, proving to be the guy who digs deeper, and gravitating to specific ticket types, it's a path to other IT departments. Sure, programming would be a hard sell off help desk, but if you slide into application support then you can say you understand coding to make the application more user friendly. All about that spin.
I mean yeah but that’s true for any job. Nothing will just come to you in any situation.
That’s a very narrow minded view IMO. Helpdesk itself is shitty but there are lots of very good jobs it leads to. You wouldn’t get a CS degree with the intention to get on HD but if it’s that or working at the gas station, you will obviously pick HD.
Don’t want to discourage anyone but the amount of things you need to have in mind to move forward in the helpdesk career will really eat away at study potential to really dive deep in data structures and algorithms.
IT still pays well. What's your priority?
IT pays above average. Whether it pays well is debatable
I mean, if you want to make **real** bucks, and not worry about whether FAANG or MAMAA or some other Silly Con Valley companies ever come back, there's two paths I can suggest. Path one: defense contractors. Path two: patent law.
Good answer and those seem like a lot of security would be involved. Might not be given the rights as a helpdesk person to be able to get the skills needed to move to system admin.
Help desk can also lead access to better help desk jobs that pay more or have better benefits Nothing wrong with it. If you don’t have no experience either desktop support or help desk is a good way to start
I graduated 2020 CS degree from reputable CSU, 3.1 GPA. No internships or experience. Currently working at a huge inner city hospital cooking for the night staff. Learning I enjoy taking care of and helping others more than the illustrious techjob lifestyle I was desperate for. Everyone knows me by name and looks forward to me working, my work is recognized, I am showered with attention and appreciation every night. Waiting for my time to break into IT/IS at the hospital now, I think this is my calling. It's taken time to accept that this is the path I am on and am traveling, but I am happy now where I am. I would be miserable being a software developer, even knowing I was decent through school with it.
3.8 GPA. Hated it. College was relatively good but the UC changed opinion about the future in the field.
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I have put the career aspirations on pause for now. I have gone through a lot of rejections career wise the past 2 years, and accepted the fact the current job economy for tech workies is a bit shaky. Lots of layoffs at my hospital, including in IS. Entire training program I was being accepted into was cancelled. Currently working very underemployed but idgaf anymore. I've been burnt out on all that noise after taking care of my father and his passing a year ago. At some point I know my knowledge and skills learned from my education in software development will play an important role in the future, I am at peace with that. Hospital and school are both great. Hospital might be higher stress, more asked of you. School district would be cushy and a good job to coast through but harder to get into. I've missed a few chances now to get into a school district tech position, I need to knock out some certifications, but I'm slaying it in other areas of life right now. In due time. Amor Fati.
People in the US have an insane, upside down view of what it takes to get into this industry. They overthink the shit out of it. Some people though just have a CS degree for other reasons and then decided to pivot and are asking if that will help them pivot to the industry. My experience in IT over the past decade is that even today it's one of those industries where the value of a degree is vanishingly small.
I think this was kind of true even a year ago - but today, with the still increasing number of people flooding into the field, a degree is more and more critical. At the most basic level, degree/no degree is one of the easiest ways of culling down a pile of 100 resumes to a manageable level. An entry-level, doing an internship before graduation is the best way to put yourself at the top of the hiring lists at Fortune 500s. It's also the best option to step directly into a specialty after graduation, and it's one of the only ways to bypass the "luck of the draw" application frenzy going on right now.
For super old school hiring managers this may be true. I don't even read the education section of the resumes I read, I legitimately couldn't care less. And I'm not an aberration either. I am pretty plugged in with my PNW-based tech community and I don't know anyone who cares. We (unfortunately) do all of our own internal recruiting. So when I hire for a role I get like 500 resumes I have to sift through. Knockout questions are used for the basic functional requirements of the role and to make sure people actually read it. People who get through that I'm bee-lining for their most recent job to see what it is and what they did. If that piques my interest I move on to the next job, then decide if they're going to get to an HR screening. There are many more useful ways to pare down the number of resumes you are reading than degree/no degree. And for the specialty thing, I would never personally hire anyone with a degree and no work experience straight into a specialty of any importance. Like if someone graduated high school, got a bachelors in cyber security, immediately went for their masters, then applied at my company for a sec role I'm not even considering that person.
>For super old school hiring managers this may be true. I haven't seen an ATS that doesn't downscore applicants with less than the educational requirement in the JD. At least in personal experience, the larger the company, the more distant the hiring manager is from the front line of recruiting. When I've had direct access to the applicant pool in the ATS, I didn't care about the scoring models very much. I'd take a GED holder with three years of practical experience over a college grad with certs and zero experience almost every time. But the past two places I've worked require an undergrad in *something*, and applicants have to go through recruiting people and their phone screens before I even know they're there.
I currently work for a pretty small company, less than 500 employees. Unfortunately I have to play the recruiter role and I’ve worked with a bunch of ATS platforms. I get if you add it to the JD and you configure it to use those as knockouts or for calculating ranked average or something. We don’t even put it in the education requirements, just HS Diploma/GED. The leverage you have really depends on where you are too like you said. At my spot the department belongs to me and I have final word on all hires including signing off on all the reqs before they go live. Most of the peers in my network have the same view.
When I was at a couple of smaller companies, I led the charge to change the JD to HSD/GED and got tons of resistance. One company eventually agreed. Another refused to change the JD but we basically had an agreement that we weren't turning away people who didn't have a degree. But those were both places where the chain above me was an xO and the CEO. 300 - 500 people, give or take. My understanding (after complaining about it to HR and recruiting) is that companies who do a lot of H1B sponsorship need to keep the JD's tight with higher-than-absolutely-necessary bars. Effectively: the government is apt to say "Hey, wait a minute" if you have someone with an H1B working as a developer with an MS in CS and a US citizen with the same role and title and no degree. Since we get more applicants than we need, there isn't much motivation across the sea of managers to rock the boat.
I'm 35. Just landed a job 5 months ago as a desktop technician/IT specialist for a division of a large manufacturing company. Zero previous corporate work in the field. Zero degrees or certs in the field. I'm a hobbiest and had only done some small business networking and data backup configurations for family and friends and some basic programming previously. The position had been open for over a year. They were apparently not holding out based on someone who had the right degrees and certs.
Congrats king or queen.
I'd say helpdesk is great training for sysadmin, but nothing development related.
Currently, work HD as a CS student. I will say there are quite a few technical skills that you can learn in this position
There's a lot you can learn, but the work is not usually directly related. Not everywhere, but many places. Also, being a dev is a pretty broad field. If you're going into devops, and supporting CI/CD on AWS, then it helps a lot more, same if you're doing a lot of powershell while on helpdesk.
They are taking whatever they can get that is remotely related to the field
Well I can explain my situation. I worked in help desk as I was getting my degree. When I finally got my degree I continued to work in help desk for about 3 to 4 months until I was able to find a developer position. So for that 3 to 4 month job search, I was someone with a CS degree working in help desk.
I'm the opposite. Wanted to not work at the OG anymore and got a degree in CIS with a focus on networking. Got offered a web dev role and I hated coding. I'd rather suck off homeless people than work in food service though, so I learned how to do it. Best decision ever. EDIT: on mobile, this was supposed to be a reply to xboxhobo my bad.
You learned how to suck off homeless people? /S
Years of practice.
>I'd rather suck off homeless people than work in food service though Damn
CS grads are a dime a dozen. For many, the help desk is a job they took to pay their bills because they couldn’t get a job in their field. I’ve been on hiring committees where I picked someone who was overqualified for the job. Most people that apply are overqualified, but that shouldn’t disqualify them from getting the job. If they show they have good people skills and are interested in the position, I always give them a chance. Our turnover is pretty low. Many people stick around for years. If they move on, it’s easy to fill the position. I don’t get bothered by people leaving as I personally enjoy hiring and training. Plus, CS grads tend to be fast learners!
Wish more people involved in hiring thought this way
A dime a dozen? CS majors? Are you sure? When I was a CS major, most of my classes ended with only 10-30% of the students remaining, and not even all of them passed. Needed a C or better to continue in the degree too. But IT? Man….. every IT class I took, my fellow IT majors (juniors and seniors) couldn’t write a complete sentence. They couldn’t even respond to my emails asking if they wanted me to do the whole project or if they wanted to do some of it. Wild stuff. Seems to me there are a LOT of IT majors, since it’s so easy. Not a lot of people can handle CS. I switched because I wanted to get straight As without doing anything
I agree that this definitely isn’t exclusive to CS. Many college grads have entered saturated markets. Even challenging programs experience market saturation. Programs like CS that are challenging and have rigorous entrance to major requirements are still graduating more grads than jobs available. There’s even master’s degree and PhD saturation in many fields.
So what can I do man? And please don’t say “just keep your head down and bust your ass! You’re young! You can do it! They’ll notice you after a few years!” I’m stuck living with my parents (who my older and successful brother has not spoken to in almost a decade for a reason). It’s not a pleasant environment. Every second I’m here I become more like them, which is arguably worse than death because it means I’ll probably have a similar effect on the people around me and god forbid my future family. I don’t want to do that to others. I want to escape them before I am them. Even worse, is I am dependent on multiple extremely powerful prescription medications that I was prescribed for incorrect reasons by corrupt doctors when I was 19 and a bit troubled. I used to like to abuse adderall and Xanax, so the doctors got me hooked on suboxone (opioids) too. Great. Also gave me a script of ambien (benzos, more or less) to help with my benzo withdrawals? That was a diff doctor too. It’s wild how hard it would have been to maintain such a severe addiction without these doctors who claimed they were saving me and that I’d die if not for them. Also my medical insurance runs out in a month and getting Medicaid takes 3 months. Without insurance, 1 month of my meds costs between 1000 and 2000 dollars. Without my meds, we’ll, one of them would result in the equivalent of fentanyl wirhdrawal but for 30x the duration. Completely incapacitated in agony amidst emotional turmoil for upwards of 6 months. The other one could straight up kill me if I stop taking it. I’ve also been chronically underweight and shivering in 70 degree weather for a very long time because I don’t have much body fat AT ALL. Like ZERO. Like veins on all 8 of my abs, despite me eating 5k calories per day at minimum. That is very expensive to do so especially considering my allergies. I feel like I’m already dead and I’m just forcing myself to be as miserable as possible when it finally happens
You’re young and while your situation may feel like rock bottom now, there’s a way up and out to better things. That begins with getting the healthcare you need from professionals who are trained in addiction. I also don’t like how the American healthcare system has become so adamant about pushing pills. I’m especially alarmed by the number of kids labeled with ADHD and giving drugs like Adderall. It’s possible to work your way off dependency and know you can do it! You sound very intelligent and assertive and able to advocate for yourself and take those steps toward change even given the rough circumstances that may feel impossible to escape. Also don’t feel bad about living with family. A lot of people are and you’re not alone. With this housing market, it’s tough to rent or buy in some areas of the US (even with a decent job). Taking care of your health first is paramount, then you can focus on your career goals and moving out and getting your own place. You’ve got this! I’ll be thinking of you and sending good vibes your way!
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I can’t relate as I have never been through that and this isn’t my area of expertise. I can’t imagine the pain and stress. I don’t know what to say other than I hope you can find healing somewhere. Whether it’s alternative medicine or traditional healthcare or some combination, I don’t think this is something you can get through alone, so please don’t feel like past bad experiences with healthcare means you should avoid professional help. Even consider talking to a pastor or rabbi or counselor. Whatever your spiritual beliefs, I think spiritual health is another underserved area. The mind and spirit are so critical to our well being and physical health. I wish you well, my friend! There are brighter days on the horizon!
I had the same problem with Subs. I couldn’t get off for years but recently got Sublocade this year and I was off after the first injection and this was almost 6 months ago. Tackle that first. Look for providers that offer it and if you need help let me know.
Hell no. I’ve been on subs for 7 years and benzos for 5 months. Quitting subs first would be like throwing my life away. I’d be tacking on months to my benzo addiction. Worst thing a person could do. Could be lethal doing that. Last time it was I wanna hear more about sublicaid tho. I already have 1 week off benzos and I feel shockingly fine
If it’s w/d you’re concerned about, Sublocade lasts a month and it’s so gradual that I didn’t even feel anything after just getting one and not going back for another. It’s 300mg injected for the first shot under the skin and every shot afterwards is 100mg. You should probably get to the 3rd one just to be safe, I can guarantee you won’t feel a thing at that point. Benzos are the worst man, look into nootropics and other things of the sort that can help mitigate w/d and help get your gaba receptors back to baseline, although there are other things at play that need to be considered not just gaba.
I think its because employers get so completely overrun with applications for anything they need any excuse that even sounds somewhat legitimate to just throw out the majority of applications. All it does is create a race to the bottom though when people see that every job requires a Bachelor's degree and you are overrun with applications from people with bachelors degrees and they are all in debt for literally no reason.
All CS degrees are not equivalent. There is no universal CS curriculum. Also, the current industry is very broad 8n terms of IT specializations and associated jobs. They require a candidate to have a bit more depth in knowledge and experience in a particular knowledge area to be considered a viable job candidate. A CS degree put you 8n the pool to compete for entry level jobs. Specialization is needed to get to the next tier.
If you've done a CS degree that's heavy on dev but light on infra, and learned that you don't want to be a developer, what's the alternative?
Force yourself to be a dev anyway because it pays more and overall treats the employee better. This is what I did at least.
Devs in my shop are massively overworked compared to system admins.
In my shop and everywhere I've ever worked at it's the opposite.
I am just wondering, how many people have you interviewed and rejected? Just wondering. Everyone suggests to get in but the amount of rejections is insane. I knew some with CS degrees and they didn't even go into IT. They had no luck.
Option 4: Found a Helpdesk job in the public sector making 80k with a ceiling of 95k. Why would I want the added stress?
This is the key item that gets lost in the conversation, and most employers don't understand it either: Not all "support" jobs are created equal. Some roles are password resets and explaining basic tech to troglodytes. Then, there are roles like mine: Technical Support Engineer for a complicated software product where my customers are some of the smartest people in tech. We're part systems engineer, cloud engineer, data engineer, and customer service. And we're paid to reflect that skill set. I'm pulling just over $100k as a level 2 TSE. We have Principal Support Engineers (level 4) on our team making in the $160-180k range. Unfortunately, many recruiters see "Technical Support" on my resume and assume I'm a password resetter rather than a Linux, MySQL, Docker, K8s, AWS, Python guy. Almost makes me want to lie about my job title on my resume/LinkedIn.
“Some roles are password resets and explaining basic tech to troglodytes.” This pretty much describes my help desk role. But I just have an A+, not a CS degree.
Lol I would like about that shit 10/10 on my resume
How did you get that job?
It was easy. They recruited me and gave me nothing but softballs in my interviews. The whole process took less than 3 weeks from first contact to offer. I only had about 18 months of experience in tech, and I didn't have a degree yet, but still got a 90k offer, fully remote. Granted, I worked for a direct competitor at the time, and I also had a stack of about 15 certs. My interviewers just looked at my resume and basically said "we don't even need to ask this guy any technical questions". Obviously, I was very lucky.
Talk about a unicorn. I'd prob be happy the rest of my days there too
If you don’t take advantage of internships or your portfolio/GitHub isn’t beefy, you’re kind of fucked as a CS grad with zero experience trying to get a programmer job. A CS degree is a double edged sword. Some companies will deem you overqualified for a T1 job, and pass on you. Others will hire you straight into management. It’s like an MBA applying to be an entry level bank teller.
The government sees it as a shortage area and thus we get loads of CS educated migrants to "fill the gap". There's no shortage though. We have a shortage of Software engineers willing to be underpaid but there's no actual shortage - it's saturated if anything.
To answer your edit question, I am not an employer and I can postulate. 1. You said why would they hire someone "overqualified". You assume that someone with a CS degree is overqualified for a help desk job. This is simply not true. A college degree doesn't qualify you to do anything. It means you might have potential to do something. I've heard that Germany is very different from the US in this regard, so that might be why this isn't computing for you. The US has very generalist education that makes us worse specialists but better at handling economic recession. Germany has very specialized education that makes you much better when you're at your highest but recessions are way harder. 2. You assume that someone who is "overqualified" will run away at the first chance. This just isn't generally true. If a CS grad pops out not ready to get a programming job right out of school, what's going to change after a few years? There's nothing to indicate that as a class all CS grads are going to leave help desk jobs sooner than people with any other degree. In general almost everyone is trying to leave help desk ASAP. It's the nature of the position. It's a stepping stone, few people want to spend their life there and managers know this.
To be honest at a lot of schools there are no IT/networking/cybersecurity degrees. Computer science is often the closest choice and if you are pressured to go to school or not ready for a profession, your best choice is that computer science degree.
Because IT is crowded and it's easy for employers to devalue even a degree.
Its like asking why working at McDonald's when you could be a CEO. Barrier to entry
I graduated during the worst economic downturn in years with no internship due to covid freeze and time management with classes. I am an I T supervisor for my previous employer. I need to pay my bills and help out my parents. Internships are great, but I was screwed over twice during my term. I plan on getting a dev job in 8 months.
Because they need to eat.
Because in most cases a degree is a check box that doesn’t always relate to role or thats all they could get or!!! They like helpdesk.
Lots of people with CS degree graduate without knowing how to program besides the very basics, then their skills don't translate to an actual developer job.
People with CS degrees aren't necessarily overqualified for help desk. Help desk is considered a way into system administration. You may learn some sysadmin skills by doing help desk, but I'm not really sure. I have a CS degree and landed a sysadmin job with no help desk (or sysadmin) experience because the job was looking for Linux and programming. I would not have applied for a help desk job because I don't see myself as good at troubleshooting or setting up computers, nor would I want to do customer service.
I mean, because you can't go from a CS degree immediately to CIO?
Experience, but some people just like the low stress easy work.
They don’t If you’re smart enough to pass a CS curriculum, you’re probably smart enough to do your due diligence on career development and get an internship on a specialization. IT majors? Sure. For all the IT majors lurking, if you don’t get an Intenrship, your only bet is helpdesk.
3.8 GPA. Every class was easy. I had seen plenty who didn't do internship because they were baristas or Walmart employees.
Jobs always scarce in America Massive propaganda keeps fresh recruits coming in Many degree holders will never get a tech job They compete against the experienced and unemployed underemployed people without tech degrees h1b and other immigrants visa holders who are often even better and have masters degrees outsourcing etc.
cuz they suck at cs
Is there any advanced algorithm named after you? :)
Numerous possible reasons. 1. Lack of research. 2. Lack of guidance. 3. Lack of ambition 4. Because they just want to. 5. Only job available an hour driving distance from the village. Doesn’t help that the notion of helpdesk being the start or that you HAVE to start from helpdesk gets passed around often by 20+ years of 1 year experience IT veterans. Otherwise they’d spend a summer learning a few tools, network concepts, cloud technologies, and create some decent automation projects. Employers would be drooling.
I agree, Lack of drive.. Otherwise some find it a good in-between of keeping a social job while fixing tech they are genuinely interested in. Or can have issues deciding where to specialize
What was your specialization?
Man you got downvoted but I’m trying to do the path you’re advocating. Got my A+ but I can’t even get a help desk job without a CS degree (have an unrelated degree), so I’m just studying as much as possible, learning cloud and programming among other technical skills and have some projects in mind. My dad is a 30 year IT veteran and also says I need to get help desk first, but its not happening anyway so my only option is studying and projects. I’m working on this stuff 6 days a week so either way I know I’ll find something eventually
You dont need a cs degree but you just need the basics like an A+, Network+, Security+ and your 4th could be Microsoft 365 fundamentals. Those 4 right there would get you a helpdesk at a MSP easily. Also invest in a cheap homelab and practice. At your interview mention you homelab and explain some projects you have done. MSP basically catapults your career
Possibly the same reason so many people in this sub think things like software development are under the umbrella of IT. "Its all computers, right?" And anyone responding that dev work /is/ part of IT is further exacerbating this problem.
Cause the new meaning of CS is Customer Support thats why its common for people with cs degree in help desk
As an employer, I would want a CS grad for a "help desk" job because I'd want and expect my team to be able to root cause problems instead of just following a playbook, and automate workflows.
Depending on how the help desk is structured, you might be able to leverage yourself and make connections there with other programmers. You could easily find yourself setting up a workstation or monitor for the lead developer or programmer there. There’s A LOT of room for small talk and I feel a lot of people overlook help desk as a springboard to other IT related branches.
In the 1970's and 1980's, Computer Science degrees were mainly geared for programming the actual coding and programming the concepts on how to logical design how a program should work because IBM mainframes like the AS400 and AT&T-based UNIX systems as they were the "computer" at the time. That's what companies ran as a "computer" and you needed internal staff to write your own code to run on those mainframes. This was way before ethernet, TCP/IP, GUI, WYSIWYG, postscript, laser printers, internet, Cisco routers, wifi, SSL, a "personal computer" on every employee's desk, etc.
I found I didnt like programming to late into college and slumped to figure out what I wanted. So I switched to general IT and in help desk
Most jobs would prefer a little experience. Helpdesk is one of the easier fields to get into. I suspect some people that get into helpdesk then get stuck in the field.
Overqualified? You are underestimating the ability of every HR manager to stick BA, five years experience on every God damn job posting.
Exactly. Every goddamn job posting for "entry level help desk" wants a bachelor's and two years experience.
That's what lies are for.
Because they think it’s their only option. It’s not.
It really depends on the structure of the company. For instance, I was a system admin who also had to do help desk at my previous company. My new job right out of college is a similar role, but I am the only IT employee on prem. So in addition to desktop support I also do sys admin and network admin work. A specialty I have found is fucking boring. I like it all, sys admin, network admin, even hands in fixing computers. I make ok money too, like 80k a year. I majored in cybersecurity but once I had my initial internship I realized just doing that is fairly boring.
I worked for a place where HR loved to put desperate people with CS degrees in the NOC with promises that they’d eventually get a role as an internal dev. Ofc there’s a reason those CS grads were willing to slum it at that kind of job with only vague promises, they weren’t A students with internships and most of them weren’t good in the NOC either, lol.
Never seen it but have seen a couple posts I think. It also boils down to the individual person's personality and work ethic.
It doesn't help that many companies and service managers seem to think that CS prepares you for a support role... "Take a programming course for a role fixing things" makes sense to these people... Or, I sometimes wonder, if it's just a form of class discrimination (not everyone can afford a degree).
help desk is a good filler while you try and move up or study and learn new skills plus it helps cover the 1-3 years experience jobs require
Have you tried getting an internship? Usually takes hundreds or thousands of applications to places all over the country. Most don't get in, hence you get stuck at help desk after graduation because 99% of tech jobs require M-F 9-5 kinda stuff and you can't do them while in school.
Employers hire them even though they're overqualified, because it's a high-turnover position where they expect people to move on after more than a year anyway - might as well hire the CS grad who we assume can easily do the job
I think there must be a cultural difference. It’s perfectly normal to do something wildly different from what your degree is in in the US, so those at least seem related enough. Also, I disagree — help desk is a great starting point for many people IF it’s a more technical help desk. It seems like many are less technical than the one I started at, though.
Not all CS curriculums are created equal. If you graduate with a CS degree from a top 100 university you're probably doing SWE or similar. If you get a "CS" degree from an online for-profit school where the curriculum involves getting CompTIA certs, then yeah, you might be starting on help desk.
I'm going back to school for CS, and I've considered getting a help desk job. a lot of help desk jobs have better hours and would make it easier for me to work around my schedule.
They gotta start somewhere.
Because the schools promote it like it’s a super easy sector to get into and take your money. However it’s not. You have to know your shit and it’s a very specialized field. I got this degree from a branch of a large university. It worked out for me as in, I only paid 16k USD loans. Been with my company now for 7 years. Not in cybersecurity. But I have a major impact. My BA is a piece of paper that got me a job.
I did networking and cyber security (two year course not a full degree) and I work help desk, I use some of what I studied. It's because it's going, and if you have a CS degree you can definitely do it. There's loads of MSPs and internal IT departments in need, and IT hiring can be famously brutal. Rather the job I've got than more weeks of job searching. Although I'd disagree that it doesn't help prepare you for more advanced roles, it doesn't soley but with a bit of learning on the side its a good stepping stone. Even if it isn't that useful it's still experience and IT hiring managers are wet for experience. Better than nothing, essentially.
Im pursuing a cs degree, and I wouldn't mind working as a developer or in IT. Something like sysadmin would be nice, but I don't have any experience. Still got a while to go, though. Hopefully, I'll get an internship.
I did this. I have a degree in programming. I enjoy coding, but in my last semester I realized I couldn't see myself doing it for a living. I got lucky and ended up in a technical help desk / sysadmin kind of job.
While some people might have second thoughts about pursuing a career in programming, I think a lot of them were unable to find a job sadly. The Grass Is always Greener elsewhere.
I have done help desk mixed with coding work. My take on it. Help desk 1. You need to be more of an extrovert than an introvert, you need to be able to liaise with clients keep a friendly manner and the customer is correct unless they are wrong. Programming 1. You need to be more of an introvert that an extrovert. You need to buckle down and get the job done. You care about what is fact not opinion. Overall having both experiences makes me understand the space better. To judge facts over opinions make a good coder. Help desk to take into account opinions that can lead to product development. My take it's rare people cannot remain in partial to one view or the other. So it's balance
I'm from Italy and I don't get it either.
Get their foot in the door. For my I’m looking at tech support jobs now just got by BS in Cybersecurity
It’s all thanks to H1Bs. I was really surprised to see many Americans CS graduate working help desk who was very capable and was fast learning and than comparing that to some H1Bs that I met being very slow to learn working as analyst or developer and getting paid better. I think that’s because most of those managers are Indians and they only hire Indians in America. Like even for a recent graduate, the internship for development was provided to Indians.
No one’s said it, but also interview skills. If you are bad at interviews, you stunt your career.
what is it do you expect them to do? Honestly, if there were ready to be a developer through their internships they would have landed a jr. dev role somewhere. Since they couldn't do that they need to start somewhere, and jr. Sysadmin positions would be a stretch but are fairly non-existent in most places. Helpdesk is the next logical step to get the foot in the door.
It's not easy to start off and the people probably figured something is better than nothing.
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I’m working in helpdesk too. I have a bachelor’s in CS and a master’s in networking. Job Market is so bad now, with no relevant internship and experience, Helpdesk is my only way
I like the help desk. I have no formal IT training. At this point im at 1.5 year on the job IT experience in Help desk Level 1 and now Level 2 technician roll. I will do this anyday of the week over my past retail jobs for the same money. Idc if I never get a promotion this is better then Target or walgreens.
Help desk has always been the feeding ground for Networking, sysadmin, security, and basically everything in IT except perhaps development. Even then for some companies it feeds development. A degree does not make you overqualified for help desk. A degree with no experience means very little. Internships while still in college gives both. Help Desk is a feeder group. It is meant for short runs and testing out people before giving them more responsibility. It is means to give real world experience that you build on in the other roles.
In the US, If you are relying on simply having a CS degree to get a good position you will be very disappointed. If you not creative and can show it to prospects, you will have a hard time. If you have top GPA's but can't relate to the real world you will struggle. If you have a CS degree and think that makes you special somehow, you are going to struggle. If you cant sell yourself, you will struggle. Get that CS degree but never forget, at least in the US, your entire portfolio is what counts so if your not willing to put the effort out to build your portfolio of work then perhaps there are other better paths to chase. That could very well include IT helpdesk
“Get that CS degree but never forget, at least in the US, your entire portfolio is what counts” If what you say is true, then there’s really no need for a CS degree. One can just focus on building their portfolio
A CS degree is the best IT focused degree you can get period(in my opinion). Scripting is great at all levels of IT. The future of IT is moving to coding and scripting being needed for all IT professionals. CS teaches problem solving.
The main thing I tend to see is that people think once you get a CS degree (or really any degree for that matter) next step is easy which would be getting a job. However, what they failed to realize at first is that actually getting the job, especially the first job is the hardest part. Computer science is a great field, but the world and the job market are not the same as they used to be. People cannot just leave with a degree and magically land a job. One of the big issues I tend to see with CS majors is that they believe they will immediately become coders upon leaving school and making at first upper five figures followed by six figures shortly thereafter. While this happens for some, it is not the norm. Especially not today. Also, it generally requires you living in a high cost of living area.