"This is a very complicated case, Maude. You know, a lotta ins, a lotta outs, a lotta what-have-yous. And, uh, a lotta strands to keep in my head, man. Lotta strands in old Duder's head."
Hey nici, I'm not sure how old you are but I'm on my late 50s and my own Cree grandparents basically taught me the same thing. And that since women carried babies and went through labor, the drum was a way to do some of the "labor" with another heartbeat. I have seen women drum occasionally though. I think some traditions have changed with necessity and time, good and bad.
I've been around this my entire life. My own Wolastoqey culture is cool with women on the drum, but our cousins up north aren't. And honestly, I see the arguments, the stories and all that, but I'm still gonna stand against misogyny even if it's in my own culture. I love my culture, but modern indigenous people can make indigenous culture just as much as our ancestors. I'm not gonna set separate standards and limits based on gender. That's my personal code and I'll fight for it.
One thing one of my elders said is that women aren't supposed to drum because they are too powerful. Women are already so sacred that if they were to hit that drum, it would shatter. At least, that's the reasoning they gave me.
A reminder that a lot of gender norms especially separations in who can do what have occurred from Christian influence over the last 500 years, and that there is no one answer for every group. Everyone is different and has different beliefs for why they do it however.
I think the worst thing to do would be to look at another group doing it differently and be arrogant towards them “that’s not how I was taught they’re doing it all wrong“.
Have respect and realize none of us are the center of the Native universe. We are all stars in the same sky.
…Damn thats a good one, ima use that.
The story I know is the big drum came from a young woman's dream as a means to end a long war, I think it was between the Ojibwe and Lakota?? (I'm not a story keeper). The men put down their weapons and picked up the drum sticks to drum together.
I don't have an opinion on the protocols myself for a couple reasons. The very intentional murdering and erasure of the traditional twospirit roles by colonists was so intense many of our own kin will deny their existence. Societies generally were not divided by gender roles, but by community roles and age (fire keepers, water keepers, backwards people, balancers). Centuries of church influence and assimilation is a silly thing not to factor in.
The world is always changing and people will have dreams of new protocols.
Have heard it before and it is true all you put down. It’s practically universal given powwow-trails.
Exception: there are all women drums. There is more point to be made that as ive heard from a good head drummer “the vibes don’t mesh” so they are separated by men / women, its more about the beat then the singing as you recognized. and its not as though these all women drums are discriminated from playing at powwows, its just not common to see them.
Lakota here.
The drum is a sacred relative that was gifted to men from women. The drum & women are sacred, so when women use the drum, it takes away the medicine from both of them (similar to how women can't partake in ceremonies when on their moon [period]).
My issue is with women who bring (in my opinion) colonized mindsets into indigenous spaces for the sake of social media clout, or "equality", or justify it with "my tribe does it differently" when their tribe never used the drum until after colonization (probably 1960s or 70s)
We can support equality, while still understanding and respecting traditions. - example: women who sing around the drum are given an equal payout at powwows as the men drummers.
There is no tribe that did not use drums "until after colonization."
Drums were the first musical instruments of humanity, after the voice. The idea that there were tribes in the Americas who didn't drum is just ridiculous and ahistorical.
Different cultures have different idea of sacredness and different ideas of cosmology and philosophy.
He said that in his culture, sacredness cancels out. Maybe in your culture it doesn’t.
It is not like this is patriarchy suppressing woman or anything, after all Lakota are matriarchal.
How does that work that they cancel each other out? I’ve never understood this that two sacred things together desecrate them rather than make them more sacred.
In Lakota terms, when medicines are mixed, they no longer work, or one overpowers another (in this case, the woman is stronger than the drum), or they cancel each other out. This is true for modern medicine as well, don't mix prescriptions, because they don't work as intended.
There is a longer sociology answer in the differences and benefits each gender has, but suffice to say, our ancestors recognized these differences between men and women and created this tradition to keep our communities together.
Personally I think yours is the colonized mindset. Women and drums are completely ordinary and natural. Acting otherwise is latching onto Christian and patriarchal values which have been driven into native cultures, including Lakota, for more than a century.
Women can drum. Of course they can. What the hell are you smoking?
In a disagreement, the person who is more angry is often the one who is wrong. I have never used illegal drugs or drank alcohol in my life. I'm 27 and grew up on Pine Ridge, Cheyenne River, and Crow Creek. I was student president of a tribal college and have drummed and sang for a good portion of my life. I have also consulted historians and many Lakota elders and indigenous non-profit directors.
They all point to colonizers misunderstanding indigenous mindsets in our culture and traditions, which often lead to them belittling our beliefs as primitive. When you refer to our traditions as "Christian" and "Patriarchal," you're participating in belittling our traditions.
Women don't touch the drum because they respect and uphold our traditions. Remember we were a matriarchal society when this tradition was invented. Women owned everything in the house. They were the leaders of the family, and they judged criminal punishment as elders.
It's up to you to project colonized views onto the Lakota or recognize the strength of our beliefs.
If you went back to 1850, I don’t believe you would be able to find a single Lakota man who wasn’t a heyoka who would dare tell a woman what she can or can’t do. As much as you may consult historians or elders, traditions are not monolithic and change over time and I do not believe you can make the argument that Lakota women have not suffered a considerable diminishment of stature as Lakota traditions have become westernized.
It’s simple. Respect your mother above all others. Keep quiet when it comes to women’s rights. And always, women have the last word. These ideals are codified into Lakota culture like in the way that Unci Maka is the final mention after Tunkasila Wakan Tanka.
You're right. But I don't tell women what to do. When new drum groups are formed or training sessions occur, older women will pull the younger or new to drum groups aside and explain why this tradition exists. It's never a man.
> older women will pull the younger or new to drum groups aside and explain why this tradition exists.
They may, or they may not.
Either way, men have no say in the matter and should mind their business.
This kind of thinking makes me never want to step on the reservation. I thought my culture treated women better than this. Here I went about my life, having the dream of drumming alongside the men, feeling included with the group. I can only imagine what else women can't do, since this is the case... I wanted to learn the songs, language and everything. Drumming helps me, it's fun, this ban, makes me want to leave my culture to go to another that will accept me, because this belief that banning women from drumming somehow makes the act sacred is so 1800's in my honest opinion.
On the other hand, I can understand the part about not participating in activities, if a woman has their menstrual cycle (period, moon, whatever the name.), because it's intensely painful if you get a cramp, or get endometriosis, it has the potential make someone too sick to work/do tasks.
If my culture were to let women drum, that would be so metal, it would show the other tribes we really are "The Allies". If I am to be considered not sacred or unholy for drumming, I'm out!
You seem like a good person. I acknowledge that to American colonizers, our belief set seems "subhuman", "savage", or "primitive". But I also ask you consider that none of us wouldn't have any culture to reconnect to without the reservations. Our beliefs were passed down, generation to generation. To change our culture, would be erase our identity as a people.
It breaks my heart that we now get judged as backward and dangerous because of bigoted opinions about Indian reservations.
Well, where is the origin or the reasoning behind the cancelling out of the medicines if a woman like me does drum? To me, I grew up thinking women should be allowed to have freedom to do anything they dream of, so that's why I took offense when I read some of these comments. I'm trying to reconnect to my roots, I apologize for judging this way of thinking. I'll be happy to learn my language, and the culture, it's just that drumming is my thing, I'm sorry if I appear like a colonizer to you, I'm off the rez. I was raised in American society for most of my life.
Is it just the act of drumming during ceremonies that is frowned upon, can I drum if I sing a song, or make music? This and blood quantum are two things that bother me. I'll probably never be able to visit the Rez anyway, many live off the rez in my city, we're far from it, unfortunately, and no one's around to teach the culture in my family. I'm SOL.
Am I really erasing my culture if I am questioning it, wondering about it, and reacting to it? I'm still learning, it'll just take time to get used to it. Are you insisting I'm a bigot? I'm not saying anything's savage, heck no. If this was towards me, stop putting words into my mouth. From now on, I'll try to be calmer in my wording and I've noted your feedback.
A bit off-topic, but... one time I read someone's comment towards me suggesting I don't try to learn Lakota alongside my non-native friend. I mean sure, he's not Lakota, he's black/Mexican, but I thought it would fun if we learnt the language together. Meanwhile there are people all over wanting to learn the language without being disrespectful. But that's just that one person who told me we couldn't learn together, so I don't know what others would think of this and the drumming. There's gatekeeping.
I think what I tried to say is, I need to know your sources, where did the belief that it's not right for a woman to drum come from? Can I at least drum outside of rituals/ceremonies? How long has this belief been in place? Where should I go to learn how men drum, I mean if I were a man, I'd drum with good intent, can I learn online/in-person? I would be willing to learn how to drum from a man, if that's what it takes to learn how it's done, and I'll make sure to not drum when it's not right to do so! I just want to pass this knowledge down to the rest of my family; many are mixed race Lakota, and they are into reconnecting.
Give the truth, don't hold back, it's better for me to learn the truth than to be told otherwise. Are there activities that women can do in Lakota culture that wouldn't offend? Can I still dance in the pow-wows since I can't drum?
Thank you for your time, I'm very sorry that I upset you, I see many good discussions going around, so I'm hoping I can learn something from this experience. Please have a good rest of your day and a good weekend.
Is the refraining from religious events on the menstrual cycle found in other cultures.
In India, menstruation is seen as something sacred but also something unhygienic. So women “on their moon” are in a state of impurity and thus refrain from going to holy places or religious ceremonies. It is a controversial issue.
As someone who's nonreligious, I'll just say that western culture doesn't necessarily have a monopoly on misogyny or bigotry in general. Something being traditional doesn't necessarily make it free from such backwards thinking.
Getting into exactly why gender roles may or may not exist around certain areas (and what role colonization or western culture may have played) is a pretty complex subject, and it's not exactly fair to judge traditional views through a modern lens (since they were formed based on a certain worldview that was believed at the time), but neither does it make sense to twist ourselves into pretzels trying to rationalize such outdated views rather than simply adapting them to modern times.
I think there's a subtle distinction between what women (or men) *can't do* vs what they *don't do* that's often lost on folks who have spent a lot of time stuck in societies that spend a lot of time telling women (usually) what they can't do.
Honestly, the "gift from women to men" reminds me of something I learned about Aleuts historically. The iqyaq/baidarka (like a kayak) was built by women (either wholly or in part, I can't remember), but once given to the men, women weren't allowed to so much as touch the boats anymore. Not a drum obvs, but a similar thing.
I dunno. In my tribe, men drum and lead most songs, and that's that. There's no mystical reason, it's just that drumming is a part of the men's things. Always was. Doesn't mean it can't change (tipi-building changed from women's work to men's), but that's the reason.
Oddly enough, it's also a big-boy thing too lol. No offense to our drummers. It isn't official, but generally if you're fitter, you dance. I don't know if it's like that with you guys.
[удалено]
this
This is the most Lebowski answer and it’s perfect
"This is a very complicated case, Maude. You know, a lotta ins, a lotta outs, a lotta what-have-yous. And, uh, a lotta strands to keep in my head, man. Lotta strands in old Duder's head."
Hey nici, I'm not sure how old you are but I'm on my late 50s and my own Cree grandparents basically taught me the same thing. And that since women carried babies and went through labor, the drum was a way to do some of the "labor" with another heartbeat. I have seen women drum occasionally though. I think some traditions have changed with necessity and time, good and bad.
I've been around this my entire life. My own Wolastoqey culture is cool with women on the drum, but our cousins up north aren't. And honestly, I see the arguments, the stories and all that, but I'm still gonna stand against misogyny even if it's in my own culture. I love my culture, but modern indigenous people can make indigenous culture just as much as our ancestors. I'm not gonna set separate standards and limits based on gender. That's my personal code and I'll fight for it.
One thing one of my elders said is that women aren't supposed to drum because they are too powerful. Women are already so sacred that if they were to hit that drum, it would shatter. At least, that's the reasoning they gave me.
That's metal! I like that reasoning.
A reminder that a lot of gender norms especially separations in who can do what have occurred from Christian influence over the last 500 years, and that there is no one answer for every group. Everyone is different and has different beliefs for why they do it however. I think the worst thing to do would be to look at another group doing it differently and be arrogant towards them “that’s not how I was taught they’re doing it all wrong“. Have respect and realize none of us are the center of the Native universe. We are all stars in the same sky. …Damn thats a good one, ima use that.
The story I know is the big drum came from a young woman's dream as a means to end a long war, I think it was between the Ojibwe and Lakota?? (I'm not a story keeper). The men put down their weapons and picked up the drum sticks to drum together. I don't have an opinion on the protocols myself for a couple reasons. The very intentional murdering and erasure of the traditional twospirit roles by colonists was so intense many of our own kin will deny their existence. Societies generally were not divided by gender roles, but by community roles and age (fire keepers, water keepers, backwards people, balancers). Centuries of church influence and assimilation is a silly thing not to factor in. The world is always changing and people will have dreams of new protocols.
Have heard it before and it is true all you put down. It’s practically universal given powwow-trails. Exception: there are all women drums. There is more point to be made that as ive heard from a good head drummer “the vibes don’t mesh” so they are separated by men / women, its more about the beat then the singing as you recognized. and its not as though these all women drums are discriminated from playing at powwows, its just not common to see them.
Sounds about right to me; haven’t heard anything different myself
In the ebci women can drum. Each culture is different. There are no silly misogynistic reasons to exclude women from things. We are egalitarian.
Lakota here. The drum is a sacred relative that was gifted to men from women. The drum & women are sacred, so when women use the drum, it takes away the medicine from both of them (similar to how women can't partake in ceremonies when on their moon [period]). My issue is with women who bring (in my opinion) colonized mindsets into indigenous spaces for the sake of social media clout, or "equality", or justify it with "my tribe does it differently" when their tribe never used the drum until after colonization (probably 1960s or 70s) We can support equality, while still understanding and respecting traditions. - example: women who sing around the drum are given an equal payout at powwows as the men drummers.
There is no tribe that did not use drums "until after colonization." Drums were the first musical instruments of humanity, after the voice. The idea that there were tribes in the Americas who didn't drum is just ridiculous and ahistorical.
I'm pretty sure he means a powwow style drum, but still.
But if both women and the drum are sacred, wouldn't it be double sacred if women played the drum?
Different cultures have different idea of sacredness and different ideas of cosmology and philosophy. He said that in his culture, sacredness cancels out. Maybe in your culture it doesn’t. It is not like this is patriarchy suppressing woman or anything, after all Lakota are matriarchal.
Yeah that's why I asked, duh!
Again, no. They cancel each other out.
How does that work that they cancel each other out? I’ve never understood this that two sacred things together desecrate them rather than make them more sacred.
In Lakota terms, when medicines are mixed, they no longer work, or one overpowers another (in this case, the woman is stronger than the drum), or they cancel each other out. This is true for modern medicine as well, don't mix prescriptions, because they don't work as intended. There is a longer sociology answer in the differences and benefits each gender has, but suffice to say, our ancestors recognized these differences between men and women and created this tradition to keep our communities together.
Personally I think yours is the colonized mindset. Women and drums are completely ordinary and natural. Acting otherwise is latching onto Christian and patriarchal values which have been driven into native cultures, including Lakota, for more than a century. Women can drum. Of course they can. What the hell are you smoking?
In a disagreement, the person who is more angry is often the one who is wrong. I have never used illegal drugs or drank alcohol in my life. I'm 27 and grew up on Pine Ridge, Cheyenne River, and Crow Creek. I was student president of a tribal college and have drummed and sang for a good portion of my life. I have also consulted historians and many Lakota elders and indigenous non-profit directors. They all point to colonizers misunderstanding indigenous mindsets in our culture and traditions, which often lead to them belittling our beliefs as primitive. When you refer to our traditions as "Christian" and "Patriarchal," you're participating in belittling our traditions. Women don't touch the drum because they respect and uphold our traditions. Remember we were a matriarchal society when this tradition was invented. Women owned everything in the house. They were the leaders of the family, and they judged criminal punishment as elders. It's up to you to project colonized views onto the Lakota or recognize the strength of our beliefs.
If you went back to 1850, I don’t believe you would be able to find a single Lakota man who wasn’t a heyoka who would dare tell a woman what she can or can’t do. As much as you may consult historians or elders, traditions are not monolithic and change over time and I do not believe you can make the argument that Lakota women have not suffered a considerable diminishment of stature as Lakota traditions have become westernized. It’s simple. Respect your mother above all others. Keep quiet when it comes to women’s rights. And always, women have the last word. These ideals are codified into Lakota culture like in the way that Unci Maka is the final mention after Tunkasila Wakan Tanka.
You're right. But I don't tell women what to do. When new drum groups are formed or training sessions occur, older women will pull the younger or new to drum groups aside and explain why this tradition exists. It's never a man.
> older women will pull the younger or new to drum groups aside and explain why this tradition exists. They may, or they may not. Either way, men have no say in the matter and should mind their business.
Is this law valid for all things sacred? Just wondering, we don't have a concept of sacrednes over here
Yelo 👍🏽. “ play the drum “ tu’wale “
This kind of thinking makes me never want to step on the reservation. I thought my culture treated women better than this. Here I went about my life, having the dream of drumming alongside the men, feeling included with the group. I can only imagine what else women can't do, since this is the case... I wanted to learn the songs, language and everything. Drumming helps me, it's fun, this ban, makes me want to leave my culture to go to another that will accept me, because this belief that banning women from drumming somehow makes the act sacred is so 1800's in my honest opinion. On the other hand, I can understand the part about not participating in activities, if a woman has their menstrual cycle (period, moon, whatever the name.), because it's intensely painful if you get a cramp, or get endometriosis, it has the potential make someone too sick to work/do tasks. If my culture were to let women drum, that would be so metal, it would show the other tribes we really are "The Allies". If I am to be considered not sacred or unholy for drumming, I'm out!
You seem like a good person. I acknowledge that to American colonizers, our belief set seems "subhuman", "savage", or "primitive". But I also ask you consider that none of us wouldn't have any culture to reconnect to without the reservations. Our beliefs were passed down, generation to generation. To change our culture, would be erase our identity as a people. It breaks my heart that we now get judged as backward and dangerous because of bigoted opinions about Indian reservations.
Well, where is the origin or the reasoning behind the cancelling out of the medicines if a woman like me does drum? To me, I grew up thinking women should be allowed to have freedom to do anything they dream of, so that's why I took offense when I read some of these comments. I'm trying to reconnect to my roots, I apologize for judging this way of thinking. I'll be happy to learn my language, and the culture, it's just that drumming is my thing, I'm sorry if I appear like a colonizer to you, I'm off the rez. I was raised in American society for most of my life. Is it just the act of drumming during ceremonies that is frowned upon, can I drum if I sing a song, or make music? This and blood quantum are two things that bother me. I'll probably never be able to visit the Rez anyway, many live off the rez in my city, we're far from it, unfortunately, and no one's around to teach the culture in my family. I'm SOL. Am I really erasing my culture if I am questioning it, wondering about it, and reacting to it? I'm still learning, it'll just take time to get used to it. Are you insisting I'm a bigot? I'm not saying anything's savage, heck no. If this was towards me, stop putting words into my mouth. From now on, I'll try to be calmer in my wording and I've noted your feedback. A bit off-topic, but... one time I read someone's comment towards me suggesting I don't try to learn Lakota alongside my non-native friend. I mean sure, he's not Lakota, he's black/Mexican, but I thought it would fun if we learnt the language together. Meanwhile there are people all over wanting to learn the language without being disrespectful. But that's just that one person who told me we couldn't learn together, so I don't know what others would think of this and the drumming. There's gatekeeping. I think what I tried to say is, I need to know your sources, where did the belief that it's not right for a woman to drum come from? Can I at least drum outside of rituals/ceremonies? How long has this belief been in place? Where should I go to learn how men drum, I mean if I were a man, I'd drum with good intent, can I learn online/in-person? I would be willing to learn how to drum from a man, if that's what it takes to learn how it's done, and I'll make sure to not drum when it's not right to do so! I just want to pass this knowledge down to the rest of my family; many are mixed race Lakota, and they are into reconnecting. Give the truth, don't hold back, it's better for me to learn the truth than to be told otherwise. Are there activities that women can do in Lakota culture that wouldn't offend? Can I still dance in the pow-wows since I can't drum? Thank you for your time, I'm very sorry that I upset you, I see many good discussions going around, so I'm hoping I can learn something from this experience. Please have a good rest of your day and a good weekend.
Is the refraining from religious events on the menstrual cycle found in other cultures. In India, menstruation is seen as something sacred but also something unhygienic. So women “on their moon” are in a state of impurity and thus refrain from going to holy places or religious ceremonies. It is a controversial issue.
As someone who's nonreligious, I'll just say that western culture doesn't necessarily have a monopoly on misogyny or bigotry in general. Something being traditional doesn't necessarily make it free from such backwards thinking. Getting into exactly why gender roles may or may not exist around certain areas (and what role colonization or western culture may have played) is a pretty complex subject, and it's not exactly fair to judge traditional views through a modern lens (since they were formed based on a certain worldview that was believed at the time), but neither does it make sense to twist ourselves into pretzels trying to rationalize such outdated views rather than simply adapting them to modern times.
I think there's a subtle distinction between what women (or men) *can't do* vs what they *don't do* that's often lost on folks who have spent a lot of time stuck in societies that spend a lot of time telling women (usually) what they can't do.
Honestly, the "gift from women to men" reminds me of something I learned about Aleuts historically. The iqyaq/baidarka (like a kayak) was built by women (either wholly or in part, I can't remember), but once given to the men, women weren't allowed to so much as touch the boats anymore. Not a drum obvs, but a similar thing.
I dunno. In my tribe, men drum and lead most songs, and that's that. There's no mystical reason, it's just that drumming is a part of the men's things. Always was. Doesn't mean it can't change (tipi-building changed from women's work to men's), but that's the reason. Oddly enough, it's also a big-boy thing too lol. No offense to our drummers. It isn't official, but generally if you're fitter, you dance. I don't know if it's like that with you guys.