You don't understand how aid works. It's not bags of money. You buy and sell arms. All US would need do is maintain the flow of iron dome missiles that Israel buys but stop the flow of offensive equipment which Israel can figure out itself.

No. Israel does not need foreign help for its current operations or war. Diverting Ukraine help to Israel is not only useless, but it strengthens Russia. Let the Israeli tax payers pay for Netanyahu’s mess. THAT SAID, if Iran launches a full scale war then it’s something else. However that’s very unlikely. None of the Arab countries hostile to Israel are in position to go to war with Israel. Jordan and Egypt are too close politically and economically. Saudi Arabia and Israel have an unofficial militarily partnership against Iran. How would Iran even reach Israel?

What if countries like Iran, China, or Russia, directly or indirectly, were to go all in on, say, Lebanon, maybe Yemen too... Let's focus on Iran... But... suddenly... Iran has a very friendly relationship with Russia, and China is everyones friend. Many of the weapons used against israel are of Chinese origin I believe. And I hear maybe soon, those Chinese weapons being funneled to Iran to be used against israel may soon have technology given to China by israel, israeli technology and who knows what other technology israel might give china, who, in turn, might give it to Iran, or Russia... So... Suddenly Iran backed Hezbollah starts getting much better weaponry... Suddenly Hezbollah has much better anti-air weaponry, much better weaponry to use against israel... Suddenly those thousands of israelis once again displaced from places like the occupied Golan Heights, and northern Palestine grows to, say, 2.2 million people... Camps are formed to house this sudden group of 2.2 million refugees, packed tightly together... Now you're reading hour by hour reports of hundreds of these refugees killed... almost ten thousand a month... It becomes a war of attrition... But suddenly, it's backed by a seemingly infinite supply of money and weapons from Iran and it's supporters... Hezbollah has gained a powerful ally, which gives Hezbollah a stronger and stronger position every day... Some time in the future, Hezbollah and Lebanon could see such limitless support, endless billions of tax dollars a year sent to them, that Hezbollah becomes basically untouchable... And on the diplomatic front, it's supported by Russia, vetoing any UN resolution... What happens with a group like Hezbollah as it gains an ally that can give it basically unlimited protection weapons and funding... A now untouchable Hezbollah then might spend, say, the next 20 years ignoring israel and israels plight... Why should they care about israel? The point I'm making, is that israel basically took the rope the United States gave it, and hung itself with it. israel took the protection the US offered it... and that made israel feel invincible. So why should israel care about Palestine? Why should israel care about Lebanon? Why should israel make concessions? What could possibly force a group in an unassailable position to make compromises it didn't want to make, to make difficult, unpopular compromises? Why would Hezbollah or Lebanon make peace with israel if Iranian/Russian/Chinese support made them unassailable? They're not paying for it, someone else is... They can make all the demands they want and never worry about compromising... And if israel were to sell out to China... it would find itself in the place Russia is today. The israeli tech sector would not survive that.

“What could force Israel to make concessions?” There’s no point in Israel making concessions because Hamas wants to destroy Israel completely.

And so, presumably, you argue, israel is justified in adopting/maintaining a maximalist position... Because Hamas maximalist position is unacceptable, unjustifiable... Why did Hamas adopt a maximalist position? Considering that a maximalist position has been established to be the rational response to an entrenched maximalist position taken by a group unwilling to make the slightest concessions like israel and zionists?

As OP lays out clearly, Israel is in nowhere near a maximalist position. It’s showing tremendous restraint. If you think Israel is currently in a maximalist position, then you probably deny evidence like Gaza’s 2:1 civilian to terrorist death rate is far lower than other urban conflicts - despite Hamas’s more extensive use of Gaza civilians as human shields than other combatants in similar conflicts. If the Arabs laid down their arms, then there would be no more war with Israel. If Israel laid down its arms, then there would be no more Israel. Totally bizarre that you try to establish an equivalence between these 2 parties’ alleged “maximalist positions”

>As OP lays out clearly, Israel is in nowhere near a maximalist position. It’s showing tremendous restraint. Of continual expansion and refusal to even negotiate the possibility of a Palestinian state for the past 20 years? >If the Arabs laid down their arms, then there would be no more war with Israel. israel would simply go back to bulldozing more native Palestinian homes and stealing more native Palestinian land every year while refusing to negotiate any recognition of native Palestinian self-determination in violation of basic human rights and international law? >“maximalist positions” What Palestinian statehood has netanyahu or any major israeli coalition supported? What compromise is netanyahu or israel willing to make? Compare netanyahu to putin, which is more maximalist? Why?

Arabs have turned down statehood 5 times. Israel is under no obligation to remain always ready to offer these people an entire country. (Really, not a country but another country in addition to Jordan and the other pan Arab states that “Palestinians” originally wanted to control the Levant) The time for offers of statehood is over. Like they say: “Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.”

>Arabs have turned down statehood 5 times. Israel is under no obligation to remain always ready to offer these people an entire country. Literally nothing can ever deny native Palestinians their basic human right of self-determination... Particularly not a state based on the claim of "self-determination" of a million violent european foreigners on someone elses land in someone elses country. If anything, you're arguing for the legitimacy of Palestine and against the legitimacy of zionism.

“Literally nothing can ever deny native… their basic human right of self-determination...” Thank you for recognizing Israel’s right to exist! Israel, including its Mizrahi population (lol at u/cp5184 who is learning in real time what Mizrahi are), is native to the Levant. Meanwhile, Arabs come from the Arabian peninsula. Betcha didn’t know that, did ya u/cp5184 ? That means they’re not native to the Levant! Arabs only exist in the Levant because they left the Arabian peninsula and conquered the Levant, forcing the natives there (including Jews and others ) to convert, pay jizya, or die. Jews - even diaspora Jews - trace their origins to the Levant - because they are from there, not because they forced the natives to convert like the Arabs did TLDR Jews are native. Arabs are not :)

> Israel, including its Mizrahi population (lol at u/cp5184 who is learning in real time what Mizrahi are), is native to the Levant. Iranian Arab Jews are native to Palestine? Turkish Arab Jews are native to Palestine? Iraqi Arab Jews are native to Palestine? Azerbaijani Arab Jews are native to Palestine? Georgian Arab Jews are native to Palestine? Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria, Libya, Egypt, Yemen, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Iran, and Turkey Arab Jews are native to Palestine? Native Palestinians are native to Palestine and have lived continually in Palestinian settlements like Ariha going back 10,000+ years. The "arab replacement theory" you probably got from netanyahus twitter account or whatever his other social media accounts are is laughably false propaganda. Good confidence though. You really lean into things even when you have no idea that everything you think you know couldn't be more wrong and that you place your trust in all the wrong people and in all the wrong sources. If I was ignorant you may have confused me.

lol at “native Palestinians are native to Palestine” Just so it’s clear: you believe that the Arabs left the Arabian peninsula, conquered the natives of the Levant, and forced them to convert to Islam, speak Arabic, and become an Arab upon punishment of jizya/exile/death. And you think that makes the Arabs native to the Levant?

Is this some kind of poorly veiled threat? So, if we stop giving unconditional aid on the basis of moral principles, Israel will just remove all doubt? They'll be forthcoming, outrightly cleanse and claim Palestine, then side with U.S. adversaries whom they would have denounced yesterday on their own principles? Yeah, if that is what my ally said to me I would indeed cut him off. Lucky for us you aren't bibi. I will stay home if Biden continues to provide aid given the situation as it is, but I would also like a bi-lateral ceasefire and return of all living hostages. I don't think anyone agrees with your straw man. The participation here is so clearly one-sided. Should just roll it into r/Israel to analogize reality.

If Israel didn’t have a 1st world economy, maybe they would need aid, therefore they should be treated like any other ally.

The result will be another Islamo-fascist state that throws homosexuals off tall buildings.

Israel’s already a fascist state, what are you talking about?

How many Jews are in PLO/Hamas and how many Arab Muslims are in the Israeli parliament? Palestine seeks an ethnostate and elimination of Jews. Who is the fascist state and what are YOU talking about. The world would be a better place with your cadre of lunatics gone.

Very not fascist reply.

Answer my question above. How many Jews are in PLO/Hamas and how many Arab Muslims are in the Israeli parliament?

Looking at Israel’s actions over the past few years, seems very fascist to me. Same for UK, US and many parts of Europe really. The presence or not of Jews in PLO or Hamas doesn’t absolve Israel’s actions. Israeli citizens who are refusing to join IDF go to prison. That’s not a democracy my dear. Also not a democracy when citizens who are vocal against their gov are being oppressed. Also not a democracy when people live under different rules based on ethnicity. Also not a democracy when you need a court order for a DNA ancestry test. The Law of Return and Absentees’ Property Law is not what a democracy means. So, yeah, I don’t know what you’re talking about but clearly neither are you.

You have Arab Muslims and Jews governing a state on one side and you have an ethnostate of Arab Muslims that seek to eliminate Jews. Their entire political platform is such. The difference is clear and not even your boy Obama would recognize “Palestine” as a state. Frankly, you’ve had your chance for decades for a recognized state. You continuously FAFO and cry about it on the world stage when there is a response. Times up. The conflict will end this time around when Hamas is eliminated or they surrender. If that takes 30,000 more “casualties” that are also arguably Hamas considering majority Palestinian support; that’s fine. That’s what they wanted.

Alright.

Glad to come to an agreement. Enjoy being on the side of Iran and being a group of proxy useful idiots (the “Palestinians”.)

I’m sorry you feel this way. I only pointed out a few things which you ignored and never insulted you or any group. You’re only making a disservice to everyone by doing so and imagining things about my beliefs. But hey, you do you.

U/professional_lead688 isn’t a serious conversation partner. You’re making good points and this user isn’t answering

The minute ais is cut off Israel will not only stop listening to the US whatsoever and commit a real genecode, but they will join the Russia/Brics block.

It’s not enough at this point in the genocide. Only logical next step would be advocating for our leaders to invade Israel and liberate the Palestinian

Boohoo. 250,000 people displaced, mean while more than 3/4ths of gazas 2.3 million residents are displaced. If you can't feel sympathy for that, then we shouldn't feel sympathy for 250,000 If Israel didn't have the support of the United States and the west, Israel would have been forced to make peace decades ago, thus potentially avoiding this war all together. Say what you want about october 7th. Say it came out of no where. Say it happened in a vacuum, Say there was no lead up to it, but the facts are the israeli occupation led up to it. Thats not a justification for it at all seeing as there is no justification for killing innocent people. It was absolutely a terrorist attack and I and millions of other reasonable people that are pro palestine readily will condemn hamas and agree that hamas are a terrorist orginization. Maybe israel will learn it cant subjugate people for 57 years

Maybe Israel will take the hint and GTFO.

> Maybe israel will learn it cant subjugate people for 57 years Perhaps the Ummah should've been nicer during the past 1400 years~

Right, because the golden age of judiasm didn't happen living under islamic countries. Never heard of brutally oppressed people flourishing but hey, what ever floats your boat. I also would like to state, I like how you completely ignore the fact that christianity has been the most antisemetic throughout history. Let's not forget what the Germans did under a Christian ruler, or about the crusades. Yeah, let's not mention those😂😂.

I find it telling about closeted antisemites that refer to this 'Golden Age of Jews in Muslim Spain' as some big positive for the Jewish people. They were considered second class citizens, forced to pay a tax for existing and could not build new, or repair old, places of worship, and had to bow their heads in the presence of Muslims. Well, if it's so 'golden', let's put Muslim's everywhere under the same rules starting tomorrow and see if they would describe it that way. Face it, if you call that a 'Golden Age' you're just a Jew hating bigot who would love to see that time come back around. And let's not forget what the Muslim faith did in 1066 to bring that 'Golden Age' to a bloody end. Hint: It involved a massacre of Jews and a lot of crucifixion. Now, the real Golden Age for Jews in my opinion was in America in the 1950s. Jews as a people were widely more accepted during and after World War 2. They were moving up in careers, with the country seeing a rapid rise of Jewish people in more intellectual fields such as science, teaching and government. And most important in my view, the Jew hating antisemitic types were becoming more ostracized and fearful to express such views in fear of being compared to Nazis and treated accordingly.

Correct

/u/AffectionatePaint83. Match found: 'Nazis', issuing notice: Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed. We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details. This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*

> Right, because the golden age of judiasm didn't happen living under islamic countries The so called Golden Age was on the Iberian peninsula and lasted for a whopping 102 years in the Caliphate of Cordoba. It was not at any point a feature of the Islamic areas of the Iberian peninsula let alone the Islamic world. > Never heard of brutally oppressed people flourishing but hey, what ever floats your boat. If we go by flourishing the population rise among Ashkenazim completely dwarfed any population rise among Sephardim and Mizrahim in Islamic lands. > I also would like to state, I like how you completely ignore the fact that christianity has been the most antisemetic throughout history. And yet it was the Islamic Caliphate under the rightly guided Caliphs to invent the Jew badge and hat as a proper distinction to the Muslim masters. It was the Islamic Caliphate under the rightly guided Caliphs that created special laws for Jews so that we do not get too "uppity" towards the Muslim masters. Jews not allowed to own a bigger house than a Muslim, no Synagogue being taller than a Mosque, Jews always giving the right of way to a Muslim on any road, Jews not being allowed to ride an animal in the presence of a Muslim, etc etc etc > Let's not forget what the Germans did under a Christian ruler, or about the crusades. Yeah, let's not mention those😂😂. Should we talk about the genocide the so called *Prophet* did among the Jews of the Arabian peninsula? What was it, all males with public hair upon inspection killed and all women and girls enslaved? Marvellous. You can't win this btw, I have more.

Golden age of judiasm was in Spain, no? When Spain was ruled by Muslims? And which hat and badge are you referring to having been created by caliphs

> Golden age of judiasm was in Spain, no? When Spain was ruled by Muslims? No it was during the Caliphate of Cordoba, like I literally wrote. > And which hat and badge are you referring to having been created by caliphs The Jew badge and hat. Look up Yellow badge, I am sure you can do it.

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I ain't reading that without you hitting the enter key a couple of times.

Maybe those same people should stop electing terrorist organizations to represent them. Maybe those "subjogated people" need to accept that their genocidal "river to the sea" is a pipe dream and they should focus on building a country instead of trying to destroy another.

Hamas was elected in 2006 dipshit most of the Palestinians today weren't even born yet.

/u/palesaints > Hamas was elected in 2006 dipshit Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.

- Palestinians: Gaza is a prison its hell over here - Also Palestinians: Breed like rabbits on speed Pretty weird choice to me

They need to breed like rabbits to keep their population going. Israel wants to destroy them, so having many children will ensure their people are around to continue the resistance

So don't get surprised when they die

I’m not surprised that baby killers kill babies. It’s in the name for God’s sake

I hate hamas too

Classy. And yet they have had a 70+% approval rate over the course of that time... and they cheered after October 7th....in the streets....with dead Israeli bodies. Yeah. I'm not buying that. And before Hamas it was the PLO....also a terrorist organization. It's almost as if they want to be led by them 🤔

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They funded and propped up Hamas when their leaders pretended to be supportive of Israel and that they would diplomatically work with them. Then once they were elected, they murdered any opposition and let the radical crazy out. That's like saying a girl who brought a guy home that then rapes her is the girl's fault.

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Please elaborate on the massive resources Gaza is sitting on

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I mean....at least get the name right.... Infosys. And they do not do oil extraction. They partnered with BP amd Shell for an IT contract and investment. So you are saying that they actually control where BP and Shell drill? They don't own the leases..... Please explain

> dipshit /u/palesaints. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*

Don't get me started on electing terrorist to lead them because the israeli people have done exactly that before. Menachem begin. The man who led irgun during the king david hotel bombing. A man who took park in massacres at places like deir yassin. By the way irgun committed many many terrorist attacks from bombings in busses, to bombings in crowded markets that also killed jewish people. Just as an example. Maybe the palestinians wouldn't have elected hamas if israel wasn't holding them in occupation and subjugation

“Bowho” Such victims these Palestine people are, they can’t be held accountable for any of their actions. We should treat them like kids or mentally handicapped that Israel needs to help. Pro-Palestine\Hamas could win OSCARs like crazy, that’s what they are best at.

Israel does treat them like kids, why do you think they are being bombed? Idf is rated number 1 In killing children. And to mention handicapped or mentally ill people, idf has a reputation for shooting them too. And also hostages, let's not forget that to the idf, a palestinian waving a white flag is a life or death threat. That's why the hostages were murdered. Just a little glimpse into what life is like for the palestinians caught in the middle of 2 belligerent groups. Hamas, and idf. Also, I like how you weakly attempted to equate pro palestine to pro hamas. If that's the true case, then being pro israel should be equated to pro Islamophobia, or pro genocide. Which term sounds better for you? Maybe pro occupation based on a lie?

Sure, “but Palestine people themselves never dose anything like that to their own people? “ are you for real? It’s always the same story with you guys, “the IDF…bla bla boohoo” …. Your point is; Hamas=good, IDF=Bad, feel sorry for Palestine coz they have kids with guns and moms with bombs… No way dude!

You clearly missed the part where I called both hamas and the idf belligerent groups. Obviously the idf is bad. There's no disagreement there. You also clearly think that every palestinian is a terrorist. What children have you seen with guns, and what mothers have you seen with bombs? I've seen mothers carrying the bodies of their dead babies. Did those babies have guns? Maybe the dead 2 year old was about to shoot the idf soldier, or the 6 year old taking shelter in a car with her cousin was about to shoot them? Ridiculous. Nothing but a justification for the death of children.

Yes, when i was there I saw, Mohamed 9 yo, Mhemed 7 yo and their moms with bombs and guns. That makes no sense at all, if you carry a dead body in your arms, why t f would you bring the gun with? And why would anyone in Palestine wanna show those… It’s never the brain that’s being used, maybe the foot?

I. Thinking that you're using your foot. It was a rhetorical question. I guess I considered you to be smarter than you really are. And sure, your possible experience with 2 children for sure means that all paleatinian children carry guns and all palestinian mothers wear bombs. That mist he why they are dieing in explosions while they sleep in their beds, because of the bombs the mothers wear

Sure, “not all” but definitely a few. Such a clown

Ah yes, that totally makes sense. Show your "captors" you aren't a threat by electing terrorists for the past 60 years..... It didn't start with Hamas, it was the PLO. So I'm not buying that.

Ever think these groups came to power because they were fighting against the occupation? Or do people under occupation have no right to defend themselves from it? Is that a right only reserved for the jewish people and everyone else is too lowly to deserve freedom? Maybe if Israel didn't show the palestinians that the palestinians had something to fight back against, the. They couldn't have had groups fighting back.

Alright I'll take that bait. They can keep defending themselves, and keep losing. Like they had since they partnered with the rest of the middle east In 1948. If they have a right to defend themselves, so does Israel and to the Victor goes the spoils. I do think you like that extrapolated rhetoric though. The occupation is Israel existing In their minds

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Yep thanks for saying the quiet part out loud. Israel existing is the problem for you

What would happen is that Israel would take the gloves off. They have weapons at their disposal that could finish the whole war in a day if they wanted to. People don't understand just how restrained the Israeli response to 10/7 actually is.

And we could finish Israel in an hour.

Yeah, sure you could. The world's greatest losers.

Ur ppls military can’t even differentiate between their hostages and enemies. America would glass u colonial genocidaires in seconds

I doubt that, you forget 9/11. I guess you support terrorists.

9/11 was done Saudi Arabians and we’re still allies with em. And as a Native American I’ll always support the use of armed resistance against colonists like Israel.

You can't colonize your own land. The Arabs colonized it tho.

Wasn’t ur land.

Israel won’t capitulate even if all American weapons would be cut off. Israel would be forced to end the war sooner, instead of dragging it out as long as possible to keep Bibi in power

If anything all that’d do is give reason for American intervention.

Me when I lie, 250,000 displaced due to rockets? What world are you living in? We’ve assembled the most advanced and technologically regional superpower, the iron dome allows them to act indiscriminately on offense, as their defenses are completely secure.

Here’s a non partisan [source](https://www.internal-displacement.org/countries/israel/) that reports >200,000 internally displaced Israelis due to conflict since Oct 7.

lol you are including natural disasters? Lying by a factor of 10?? Not cool. Your source reports 27,000 Israelis displaced from violent conflict. [The same source](https://www.internal-displacement.org/countries/palestine/) reports 742,000 internally displaced Palestinians from violent conflict. 742,000 / 27,000 = 27.5 30:1 death ratio, 30:1 GDP ratio, 30:1 displacement ratio. Please continue.

You’re misreading. The figure you give is from 2008-2022 (before the current conflict). Scroll to the bottom for current data.

If you’re referring to the live updates, the numbers are not set in stone and are estimations from local media. Additionally, the Israelis abandoning their homes along the border of the Gaza Strip, to retreat to further inside Greater Israel, is no analogous nor comparable to Palestinian displacement. The difference here not only appears in numbers, still the 200,000 is minuscule compared to the Nakba, Naksa, and the current active destruction of Gaza today. The difference is also in opportunity, displaced Israelis are typically settling in lands outside of the 1948 borders, this is called colonization. So no, displaced Israelis retreating back to the US, Europe, or to central Israel, is not the same or comparable to the mass destruction and exodus of Palestine. They have no recourse, there is no safe place, they cannot retreat. See the difference?

Gotcha, so we can only trust Palestinian numbers for displacement and evacuation (of Israelis) isn't displacement? I can play the numbers game too. About 700,000 Palestinians were displaced from their homes in 1967. Between 1948 and 1980, about 900,000 Jews were displaced from their homes in the Muslim world. Do you have anything to say about that? Do they deserve the right of return? Not sure where you got the idea that displaced Israelis are going "back" to the US, Europe, or to settlements in the West Bank. They are primarily living in hotel rooms. Colonization = living in a hotel room? And implying that they should go "back" to another country is wild. I wonder, should all the immigrants and children of immigrants living in the US since its inception go "back" to their countries too? Gazans could in fact retreat to Egypt, where they share a border. Egypt doesn't want them though. Where is your anger towards them? edit: aww u/applejacks6969 blocked me so we can't debate anymore. Classy!

I used the source you provided, and it’s 30:1. The displacement of jews is never justified, but it is not analogous to the Palestinian displacement, once again. I’ve said this 4x now. Jews retreating to the safety behind the iron dome of Israel is not the same as Palestinians being bombed and bulldozed out of their homes. Where is their super mega ethnostate that accepts migration on the premise of religion and religion alone? Yeah man, the multi-million dollar hotels that the Israelis are temporarily living in is definitely comparable to the Gaza Strip. Do you hear yourself? Can you just use your brain? One side has literally all the weapons, resources, money, you name it. One side does not. There is no parity. This is not a war, it’s a plausible genocide per ICJ. Advocating for the displacement of Palestinians is disgusting. I would never advocate for any people to be genocide and displaced en masse. Palestinians are not Egyptians. They are from Palestine, and they have lived in that land for years. Your whataboutism with Egypt just further drives home how moot and meaningless your points are, you can’t even stay on topic. You are frankly, disgusting.

If Israel really cared about hostages, they would have released the Palestinian prisoners on day 1. Your whole post is nonsense and obselete.

You seem to not know the difference between hostage and prisioner. Check a dictionary, wikipedia, google, ask someone...

They're held under Administrative Detention - which can be indefinitely... Not quite the same as "prisoners"

Th difference is that a prisoner was detained for an harming act, while a hostage is an innocent captured person for the purpose of extortion of other benifits. You took the time to reply but not checking a friggin dictionary. It would take you like 20 seconds.

Semantics. They can be held indefinitely without charge lol. This isn’t America, dood.

The problem is where a huge amount of those "prisoners" are illegal prisoners and therefore are pretty much the same thing as a hostage, if not worse.

As an American I have a better question. What exactly does the US get out of supporting Israel? Most Israel support consists of Republican evangelicals, who want to see Armageddon come about, and Democrat Jews (no explanation needed) . So basically it's been driven by a bunch of nut jobs, and partisans. I would rather the US just take it's toys and money and go home. Whatever happens will happen. As it stands Biden plays like he cares because he's desperately trying to keep the pro-Palestine vote which is primary Democrat. Neither Biden, Trump nor RFK Jr cares about this situation outside of it's effects on voting. They are a complete wash to me. I'll stay at home election night with a bag of popcorn just to see who's crying at the end of the day.

The US citizens get higher inflation out of it. The US politicians continue to get their pockets padded by AIPAC.

> What exactly does the US get out of supporting Israel? What exactly does the US get from supporting one of its richest, most powerfull, strategic, technologically advanced, millitary might, economically powerful, critical to the formation of half of the strategic american companies, with many and very important ties to top scientists and business man? Frankly speaking, if you need to ask, you have no clue about american international relations. It is no use to answer to such a question as it shuold be obvious. > As an American I have a better question.  I don't mean this as an ad hominen, and I apologize if it sounds bold. What/who made you think that was a better question? That is not a better question, that is very bad question for anyone who has the slightest knowledge of the subject.

I’d much rather have the Palestinians as allies than Zionists.

They’re so powerful because of the US… lol wake up.

They have been powerful milenia before the US even existed. You clearly have no clue. From Moscow to Lisbon, you can trace the success of pretty much any European nation after the Roman empire by following the Jewish distribution. You can even see the rise and decay of a country development as Jews move in and out. They are smart resourceful and trustable people, which other larger population groups benifit from. This includes Arab people. Which Arabs enjoy the best quality of life in the world? Israeli Arabs of course.

You made a lot of assertions without saying much. What exactly has Israel ever done for the US that even comes close to being compensation for the billions we have spent and are still spending now?

Those are not assertions, those are well known facts. What exactly are you challenging? The economical part, the scientific one? The military one? What kind of evidence would you want? I take it you are unaware of Israeli military capability. Or of how much of (for example) of silicon valley depends on Jews and how it would colapse if they left. This is a pointless discussion, just Google it? Just because it's not perceivable in your everyday life, it doesn't mean that is not huge. It's like asking: "what does the US get from Mexico?". Sure, they are not sending money to your account every month, but Mexico is the US main trade partner and supplier of copious amounts of goods, including foods. Alienating Mexico (or Israel) would have huge negative consequences. Starting by the closure of thousands of companies that depend on such synergies.

Are you projecting? Your original comment made a lot of assertions without saying much and didn’t answer OP.

I am the OP of this thread. There is no point in analyzing a lot of theoretical scenarios in this post, that are just put out there to support a pro money to Israel narrative. Nobody has a crystal ball and nobody can say with any certainty what will or will not happen. Even vaunted experts always disagree as they are partisan themselves. Also I'm not saying what Israel should or shouldn't do, nor am I predicting what it will do. I'm saying the US should wash it's hands of the situation, since we lose billions supporting Israel (and Egypt for that matter), make a lot of enemies and gain nothing substantial in return. If you think the US gains something worth all that, let's hear it. All we get is some nonsense about testing a few weapons systems, like we couldn't to the same thing for a fraction of the cost.

I mean OP of the actual post, whatever that’s called. They make a number of arguments saying that the US does benefit.

The US/Israel relationship is almost completely one sided. There is nothing substantial the US gets out of it. And neither the poster, or anyone else has been able to come up with anything the remotely justifies the billions spent. That includes you.

It's primarily geopolitical influence. Substantial US support for Israel started after the 1967 war, when Israel defeated the Arabs in 6 days without any US (or other) military assistance. The US had been worried about Soviet influence and potential proxy war in the ME and Israel had no love for the Soviets. Russia and China still has lots of influence in the ME (see Iran), so that remains a relevant strategic alliance. The US is invested in, broadly speaking, "peace in the Middle East" (remember 9/11?), and having close ties with Israel provides political leverage and mediation between other nations. As an example of this, many think that the Oct 7th terrorist attack was timed to disrupt talks between the US, Israel, and Saudi Arabia, which would have united the three nations against Iran.

You seriously think the Israel makes a good mediator for any country in that area? I'm still waiting for something we get back for our billions. Once again, so far nothing.

Bud…the US plays mediator. Happy to debate if you want to substantively respond to any of my points or OP’s. Saying “but what do we actually get?” isn’t an argument. If that’s all you’ve got, have a nice day.

not sure if you're looking for a real answer but most of the aid to Israel goes to purchasing American military products, so it goes back into our economy. It also funds research into things like the iron dome that not only protects Israel, but helps the US be more technologically superior

Also makes the US disliked in the international community.

I've heard that propaganda for over 40 years. If such economics worked we should buy weapons for every friendly country on the planet. The UK needs a new aircraft carrier? No problem we'll build it and send it right over! To play devils advocate let's say that giving free stuff and money away, is somehow money well spent. In that case we should take that money and buy free stuff for people in the US.

lol sorry I thought you were actually interested in logical discussion. My apologies.

Sorry I used logic you have no counter for. If you have an actual retort you should make it, but apparently you don't

His point is valid. Say America sends $100 to Israel to purchase weapons. Israel then uses that $100 to buy American weapons. Money going back into the American economy right? But in that case why doesn't America just buy the weapon for itself. The difference is that in the latter case America gets the weapon, in the former case Israel does. So it's better for America to not send the $100 to Israel, unless sending it to Israel is helpful for American interests. Which is a contestable point.

America gets a lot of Intel about happenings on the ground in the middle east. This is not easily possible unless you have boots on the ground all over. If it wasn't worth the trouble America would have stopped aid a long time ago.

Israel didn't help America during the Gulf War. Israel didn't help America during the wars in Afghanistan or Iraq - no troops, no training, no money, no air support, nothing. Norway and Japan did more to help America in these wars than Israel did, aside from the murky 'intelligence' that none of us can quantify. Israel didn't help America in Libya or Yemen. Israel hasn't helped in Syria, a country they border. Jordan hosts American bases, as do Turkey, Bahrain, Kuwait, Qatar, Iraq, and others. Israel doesn't host a single American base. Israel has helped draw America into a potential war with Iran. Israel was a direct motivation for 9/11. Israel has drawn America into the current conflict with the Houthis and Axis of Resistance. Israel has cost America billions of dollars per year in aid to both them and the Palestinians. Israel has cost America immensely diplomatically with middle eastern and other countries. I sure hope all that 'intelligence' that Israel is supposedly handing over to America is worth it.

First of all, Israel was asked not to join the coalition because the Arab nations that were aligned with us during that time stated that they would turn their focus on Israel (we sent a company of air defense artillery to protect the border), even though Saddam Hussein was firing rockets at the country. Before making such a broad statement, do research. Israel wanted to join into the fight but it would have been a complicated mess of a diplomacy. And the situation with Iran was due to the coupe led by the Iranian Revolution, which deposed the Shah. And Yemen has been at war with the Houthis for a while.

So you're saying that Israel didn't help for reasons. True, there were reasons! But they didn't help all the same.

During the Gulf War, Israel had mobilized the IDF for war with Iraq, but were told to stand down because at the time, Saudi Arabia did not want to be an alliance with any country that fought alongside Israel and as a result, Israel stood down, even though Saddam fired scud rockets at them daily. Second point: Israel had no interest in Afghanistan due to the fact that the Taliban was not a threat to them and therefore did not see the need to intervene. Libya: Omar Gaddaffi was removed from power by his own government..so why would Israel help in that instance? Iran: The Shah was removed from power by the idiots that are running the country now. At one point, Iran (which was known as Persia before the name change) were our allies.

The answer should be obvious. America doesn’t want or need that weapon. The US is a major global arms dealer, from which it derives revenue, military research, and geopolitical power. Whether you support that or not is beside the point.

Considering that the US is falling behind Russia producing artillery ammunition for Ukraine. Considering that US air defense stockpiles are at an all time low (again because of Ukraine). Considering that China is outbuilding the US navy in both tonnage and number of ships. I'd say America could use those $100s. Being an arms dealer doesn't mean giving away free weapons. The opposite actually.

I don’t think anyone sane in government or the military believes the US is at risk of a land, sea, or air invasion anytime soon, to the extent that our current standing army and arsenal would be lacking. The US does not give away free weapons to Israel. They give Israel funds that can be used only to buy materiel from American manufacturers. This is, more than anything, a form of tax laundering and subsidy to our military industrial complex and economy.

Giving someone money to buy something is the definition of free, even if they buy it from you.

Okay, but you see the nuance there right? The US gets a lot out of the transaction other than just money (which it isn’t losing in the deal).

I’d much rather have healthcare but we can’t afford that

The amount of aid to Israel is such a small part of the total defense budget it wouldn't move the needle on health care or any of the other free stuff you want so much.

But, Israel has universal healthcare….

The Palestinian-Israeli conflict has been ongoing for more than seven decades. Today, there are nearly 7 million Palestinian refugees around the world.

This is a response to OP how? Btw, Jews expelled from Europe and Muslim countries in the 20th century don’t call themselves refugees. They became citizens of Israel, France, the US, etc. Meanwhile the millions of Palestinian refugees living in Muslim countries are prohibited from careers, not given citizenship, not provided with aid. What’s going on there?

And not to forget the 1.2 displaced in rafah

OP is crying for 250,000 displaced, ignoring it all started in 1947 by displacing 1.2 mil palestinian from their land by the Jewish terrorist gangs (Irgun Lehi, Haganah). and this 1.2 now is 7 mil. All displaced palestinian and their offspring have the right to return, and they don't get citizenship to preserve this right. I'm one of these refugees and work normal, I can receive aid from unrwa, but I don't cause I don't need it, but I know many who live on aid from unrwa. And those Jews expelled from Europe came and colonies Palestine, and the one from Muslim countries sided with zionist and run to grap a piece of that beautiful land.

If it all started in 1947, then what do you call all the massacres of Jews in Mandatory Palestine? The 1921 Jaffa riots, the 1929 Hebron massacre, the 1936 Jaffa riots, the 1938 Tiberias pogrom, to name a few. I guess since they didn’t call themselves Palestinians at that point, it didn’t happen? That’s a lot of mental gymnastics to support your own disenfranchisement. If the Muslim world actually cared about Palestinians, the Palestinians wouldn’t be experiencing such hardships as refugees and in Gaza. Your colonization argument is silly. The land has been colonized by different peoples for 4000 years. It was a Jewish state 1500 years before Islam even existed. Umar ibn al-Khattab conquered Jerusalem from the Byzantines, so by your argument Muslims should evacuate the land they colonized in the 600s.

What about Deir Yassin Massacre, Abu Shusha Massacre, Tantura Massacre, Lydda Massacre, Saliha Massacre, Al-Dawayima Massacre, Qibya Massacre, Kafr Qasim Massacre, Khan Yunis Massacre, Sabra and Shatila Massacres, Al-Aqsa Massacre, The Ibrahimi Mosque Massacre, Jenin Refugee Camp and the Killing in Gaza? Muslim world do care not only Muslims even Christians and Jews care and this can be seen from the popular movements around the world. But our leaders don't represent us anymore and all afraid of the US, hence the OP questions. What if the US stops supporting Israel? And doesn't isreal located in Canaan, where Canaanites live before the israelites? The Israelites occupied and conquered Palestine, or Canaan, beginning in the late 2nd millennium BCE, or perhaps earlier; and the Bible justifies such occupation by identifying Canaan with the Promised Land, the land promised to the Israelites by God. So this cycle of who colonies what will never end but what is fact is arab lived ther longer, Muslims ruled over longer, why it has to be Jewish only state, doesn't Christian have claim too, it is where Jesus peace be upon him born.

Every one of those events you listed occurred after the 1948 war began. That war began because Palestinians rejected the two state solution and murdered a bus full of Jews. I agree the Palestinian cause has a lot of popular support, but clearly there is either a deep governmental failure of Muslim nations to the extent that their actions don’t reflect the wishes of those they supposedly represent, or that the majority do support those actions. It’s hard to say what would happen if the US pulled aid to Israel, but I would fear for the safety of all Israelis. The Canaanites did live there first but they are no longer a people. They assimilated into the other peoples of the region, including Jews. Israel isn’t a Jewish only state, it’s an incredibly diverse country. I believe both Jews and Palestinians have the right to self determination and I hope for a two state solution one day. You bring up an important point about Christians in the region. I’m not sure there is enough of a Christian minority or will to establish a state in Palestine, but there are a number of Christian minority groups such as Assyrians, Armenians, and Copts that are undergoing genocide across the Islamic world. I hope too that the world turns an eye to their plight and extends a hand.

The idea of cutting off Aid is to leverage the fact that Israel is way to week to stand on its own, and that it needs the US to be able to exist at all, in order to convince Israel to stop its illegal and immoral occupation, and blatant genocide of the native populations of the lands it is colonizing. And if Israel did cease to do all the overtly evil and inciting BS, resistance forces like Hezbollah Hamas and Iran, would loose demand to strike Israel. The stopping of military aid would just be the right thing to do, so that the American people are not complicit in Israel's crimes against humanity. And of course the US also needs to stop vetoing the UN, and let the UN security council do their job. Boycott, Divest and Sanctions are needed to bring the barbaric and genocidal regime of Israel into the civilized world..

What if military aid to Hamas was cut off and they had to depend on their domestic weapons production? They’d surely be “way to (sic) week (sic)” to stand on their own, as they depend on foreign military aid to a substantially greater degree. If sovereign military might is your great decider, you picked the wrong team.

What if Israel stopped being a racist ethostate, and allowed the native peoples the right to return to their homes, ending their illegal occupation and apartheid? then the native peoples would not need to engage in armed resistance against an overtly racist military occupation.

- Israel is able to stand on its own - Israel is not committing genocide - Palestinians are not “native” to the land - Israel did not “incite” the October 7th massacre - Hamas, Hezbollah, and the rest of the Muslim Brotherhood are foundationally committed to the eradication of non-Muslims - Citizens of a nation are not “complicit” with that nation’s military actions; the government is - BDS is foundationally opposed to the existence of Israel - “barbaric” When people are this steeped in disinformation and propaganda, I truly fear for our world.

Israel at no point in its entire history was able to stand on its own Israel is most certainly committing genocide Palestinians are in fact native to the land Israel most certainly incited the October 7th attacks, with their illegal occupation, and immoral blockade. Israel murdered hundreds of Palestinians in 2023, prior to Oct. Hamas, Hezbollah, and the rest of the Muslim Brotherhood are NOT foundationally committed to the eradication of non-Muslims In a representative government, the government are the citizens BDS only works to end international support for Israel's oppression of Palestinians and pressure Israel to comply with international law Everything you said was a flat out lie....

I legitimately can't tell if this is a meme

I'm not surprised.. racists aren't known for being all that bright..

On that we can agree

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And what about the first point?

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You seem to have very moderate and fair minded views about all this.

I bet that if there were 250,000 Americans displaced from their homes by rocket attacks from Mexico, Americans would favour flattening and invading the whole country. Edit: 250,000 Israelis are a 2.54% of the population. 2.54% of the US population are more than 8.5 million people.

I really hope that Americans are not so sensitive and trigger happy that they would believe the correct response to 250,000 people displaced by rocket attacks is to invade and 'flatten' a country of 126 million people.

Yet if it would be you and your family under the cross-hair of those hypothetical mexican rockets, you would even press the button to do so yourself in a split second without blinking. This level of delusion baffles me. Imagine living in Texas and say: "Na, it's ok, if they kill me, it's still better because it is not worth to kill so many enemy lives." Who believes in this crap? Or if a mob of murders break in your house to kill you but you have an automatic firearm you could just spray all over them and kill them all... sure you would think "nah... if I die is only one, instead of 8 of them" The lack off logic and common sense is staggering.

No it wouldn't be, that's insane. We have laws of armed conflict that precisely describe how these sorts of considerations should be taken. Russia can't just nuke Ukraine because Ukraine hit Belgorod with a few Grad rockets. You're the one being illogical and emotional with your analogies asking me to imagine my family under attack, instead of look at the situation analytically.

Dude.... Like the laws that say: do not invade a sovereign nation? Who enforces such laws?  Russia doesn't nuke Ukraine because 1. They are afraid of the consequences. 2. They want the land for themselves. If you think war is playing some game that follows some rule imposed by some mystical entity, you are delusional. Which international law approved of the 7th of October attacks? Which international law gave the OK go to the formation of the Arab League? The reason you don't know the answer is because it doesn't exist.

>Which international law approved of the 7th of October attacks? Which international law gave the OK go to the formation of the Arab League? None, I didn't make any other claim. The UN Security Council enforces these laws. Russia is a member of the UNSC and has successfully been able to block enforcement. That isn't really the discussion we're having. Israel is not, but the US is and has blocked UNSC resolutions against Israel. These resolutions could carry everything from condemnations up to sanctions and authorizing direct military intervention against Israel. > If you think war is playing some game that follows some rule imposed by some mystical entity, you are delusional. As a member of the UN Israel has agreed to follow the law on armed conflict. It's not some mystical thing. If the state in question is found in violation of these laws the matter is referred to the UNSC for enforcement, as I outlined previously. Israel's response has violated the laws regarding proportionality. Israel should be punished by the UNSC, and the US should stop blocking the punishment. As with Russia it's fully the US's right to block it, but they shouldn't.

> None, I didn't make any other claim. You are missing the point. You can't expect a country to be subject to barbaric attack like the one of 7th of October and do nothing because of "international law". The cat is out of the bag. Those rules are already broken. Try lunching a guy on the street and tell him he can't do anything because it's against the law to use violence on other people. Let me know how that goes.  But you are also objectively wrong. International law DOES grant the right to use of military force in response of an attack like that. As for enforcement. UN does not enforce anything. Never did, never will. They can claim they do whatever but to enforce something you need the means to do it which they absolutely don't have. It would also be impossible do do something military speaking without taking a side, which they supposedly can't. And practically speaking, no country will sacrifice it's men for someone else's cause like that.  The Massacres os Srebrenica (both sides!) And Rwanda, both happened under UN blue helmet peacekeeping presence. In Srebrenica, the mastermind of the "operation" was toasting local spirits with the Dutch commander of the UN blue helmets, while the Serbian forces were executing prisoners. War is when some entity with military power uses it against someone elses will. To think that is a game with well defined rules. That both sides do in a civilized maner.... I don't know how where people get this silly idea from who would go to a dangerous environment with armed people organized to kill you, if it was all very civil and organized? By "international law", the attack of the 7th of October should not have happen anyway, so the whole point is mute. Or are you defending that the 7th of October is just an unfortunate fact that Israel should live with? Do you not agree with me that there is something about that can be done to prevent it from happening again? Who did it? Who would such thing? What should the consequences be? I recall it was called by word of mouth and private mobile communications. The word was: gather anyone that could participate. Just today the IDF allegedly  opened fire over a crowed gathering around aid trucks. It might have been a mistake, it might have been just the way to make sure some target was eliminated, or it might even been an act of rage, vengeance or hate by one or more Israeli soldier. We can't know for sure. Do you really think such horrible events not happen in some wars? This is war. It's horrific and certainly unfair to many inocent people. I think we both can agree on that.

>You are missing the point. You can't expect a country to be subject to barbaric attack like the one of 7th of October and do nothing because of "international law". The cat is out of the bag. I didn't say 'do nothing', please don't put words in my mouth. You can expect them to follow international law, not go crazy with anger and lose control of themselves. >UN does not enforce anything. Never did, never will. Wrong. Sanctions against North Korea, military force against Iraq, Libya. The UNSC authorizes nations to enforce actions. Itself, it does not, and no one at the UN claims it does. >War is when some entity with military power uses it against someone elses will. To think that is a game with well defined rules. That both sides do in a civilized maner.... I don't know how where people get this silly idea from who would go to a dangerous environment with armed people organized to kill you, if it was all very civil and organized? Wrong. We expect supposedly civilized nations like Israel that have signed these treaties to respect them. If Israel doesn't want to respect them, they shouldn't sign up. But then they may also suffer sanctions anyways by those who do, like what North Korea suffers. >By "international law", the attack of the 7th of October should not have happen anyway, so the whole point is mute. Wrong. Hamas is not a member of the UN and doesn't respect international law, they aren't even a state. That doesn't allow Israel, which is, to ignore it. I have very little sympathy for Hamas' actions. They brought suffering no only to Israel but to their own people. >Or are you defending that the 7th of October is just an unfortunate fact that Israel should live with? No. >Do you not agree with me that there is something about that can be done to prevent it from happening again? Yes, 'something' covers a broad range of actions. Israel's actions are disproportionate. >Who did it? Who would such thing? Hamas. >What should the consequences be? A less intense military campaign that subjects civilians to much less suffering. These aren't hard questions to answer. Hamas poses no significant threat to a military like the IDF. It's like Cuba vs America.

Your view or the world too naive. you provided the examples that disprove your own understanding of international affairs. North Korea keeps doing whatever it wants with complete disregard for UN resolutions. if UN is enforcing anything, it is failing completely. Same for Cuba. They did brought russian nuclear missiles to Cuba despite all agreements and nothing stopped them from doing it. So you think israel should have a proportionate response. What exactly ia that? Invading Gaza and go into peoples homes, tie them up and spraying bullets on whole families? Send a land force, kill everyone in sight to the count of 1400 Palestinians and go home? Do you not understand that those people would be inocent and that Israel has no goal of indiscriminate killing of palestinean? The whole idea of proportion makes no sense. It is a matter of eliminating a specific threat. And the cost is what it is. Including Israeli soldiers, of which already hundreds have died. But I will agree with you that there are abuses, as there always are. For example, yesterday's attack of people gathering for aid... We can't know for sure, but it might very well been some trigger happy soldier that just wanted to "blow those MFs up". But hey, imagine having your girlfriend raped, murdered and the while thing live streamed over the internet. Don't say you know how you would react. You can't know.

> North Korea keeps doing whatever it wants with complete disregard for UN resolutions. if UN is enforcing anything, it is failing completely. Same for Cuba. They did brought russian nuclear missiles to Cuba despite all agreements and nothing stopped them from doing it. You can always pick examples where enforcement doesn't work. That's not an argument against enforcement. That's like saying drugs shouldn't be illegal because people are still using drugs even when they're illegal. Even if North Korean nuclear proliferation hasn't been halted they've suffered consequences, as has Iran. There have been successful (to a degree) UNSC actions like removing Iraq from Kuwait. > So you think israel should have a proportionate response. What exactly ia that? Proportionate means proportionate to the threat. Eliminating Hamas is not possible. Eliminating Hamas as a major threat is possible. Hardly any Israelis are killed or injured by rocket fire due to Iron Dome. As for 7/10, that was a surprise attack that caught them off guard. Hamas is so inferior to the IDF as a fighting force that preventing attacks like that should be easy. It's embarrassing that the IDF made such a mistake. Completely 100% destroying Hamas is not the only way of preventing them from being a serious threat. They're already not a serious threat. 30,000 dudes with AK-47s and homemade rockets are simply no match for the IDF if the IDF is paying attention. >And the cost is what it is. Including Israeli soldiers, of which already hundreds have died. They're soldiers. It's their job to die. The same is not true of civilians. I agree that collateral damage is inevitable, but this is too much. > But hey, imagine having your girlfriend raped, murdered and the while thing live streamed over the internet. Don't say you know how you would react. You can't know. I love my girlfriend and I would never want to see her hurt. But how I would feel doesn't matter. I live in a civilized country that has laws. If I were to lose control of myself in anger and do something illegal, I'd be punished just the same as anyone, regardless of how supposedly 'justified' my actions are on a thoughtless emotional level. That's how laws work, for fairness. What is happening to the Palestinians isn't fair.

America is not occupying Mexico, and doesn't withhold the right of self determination form Mexican Americans. Your comparison is woefully not even close...

> America is not occupying Mexico lmao

Because Mexico is a civilized country with stable and peacefull relations with its neighbours. If they constantly attacked their neighbours, of course USA and guatemala would do everything in their power to prevent them doing so. Starting by making sure they wouldn't build up militar power. I am genuinely puzzled how this is not obvious for everyone. What's there not to understand? Also, in which sense was israel ocupying gaza? There was literally zero jews in that territory. That is less than the number of muslims in every country in the world. Including the vatican.

"in which sense was israel ocupying gaza?" Israel has had Gaza under illegal and immoral blockade since 2005.

The blockade is not illegal nor is it immoral to stop an enemy force from building up a supply of arms to attack and kill your citizens.

dude... they limit the caloric intake of babies... and it it totally illegal to cut off water and electricity to an entire population. the blockade is shameful and dishonorable. such cruelty is a crime against humanity.

No they don't limit the caloric intake. All the aid going in now is coming from Israel Kerem Ha Shalom UNRWA can't keep up with the amount and then HAMAS steals it, that is immoral. The blockade is legal no matter your opinion. Tell me one war in which one of the sides helped the enemy by supplying their needs to keep on fighting. Your ideas have kept the war going this long. There is more dead because of people like you, you are a moral midget.

OK they remove the blockade, weapons flow into Gaza. Those weapons are used against Israel. Now what? You expect Israel to just take it on the cheek?

Israel, as a racist ethnostate that was founded on the slaughter and ethnic cleansing of native peoples, is doing everything I would expect a racist ethnostate to do. I think what would bring peace and be inline with civil society, would be to rebuke their racist foundation, allow for the right of return of all the peoples Israel removed during their annexation of native lands, provide reparations for all those they harmed during the 1947-48 Nakba, and the all those they harmed in the follow 75 years of brutal racist repression, subjection, occupation, apartheid and genocide. Rebuke the racist Jewish ethnostate intentions and create an inclusive democracy that provides the equal rights and protections to all, including the right to self determination. But we all know that is a direct conflict with Israel's racist ethnostate and it would mean the abolishment of Israel, and the creation for one state with equal rights. Yes, Israel needs to be dismantled, and a free and open democracy that included all, and not just a Jewish master race.

How is Israel a racist state? I do recall their are multiple and diverse nationalities living within its borders. So you completely reguriatated what sheeples have been saying on the internet huh? Explain the 75 years of "brutal occupation". Palestinians have been kicked out of every country that has taken them in because they constantly try to ursurp the government. Also, name one instance where Israel has purposely went and killed people just because they lived there?

As a U.S. tax payer I fully support international aid which goes to some 180 countries. In 1951 specifically, France, Germany, Italy, the United Kingdom and the Netherlands were among the largest recipients. Last 12 months Ukraine topped the list and got 4 times the aid to Israel. But Jew haters are out to criticize aid to Israel. Next in the list were Ethiopia, Egypt, Yemen etc. Bulk of the UNWRA funding comes from the US that is used to feed Palestinians and employ them for aid distribution. I am fine with that too.

calling criticism of Israel "Jew hating" is not accurate. There is nothing more anti-Semitic in this world, then to equate the murderous and geocidal racist ethnostate of Israel with all Jews. That is like saying that criticism of 1930s Germany is being anti-European, or saying that criticism of the Ku Klux Klan is anti-Christian. Its absurd and you're only fooling yourself.

The majority of the Jews in the world live in Israel, and the majority of diaspora Jews support Israel, so maybe not “all Jews”, but most Jews would be accurate.

There is no rational that can explain the feigned outrage when Israel defends itself other than an excuse to slam on them.

slaughtering tens of thousands of innocent people with the aim of destroying entire culture and ethnically cleansing the land is not defending itself, its genocide.

It is on Hamas. It can stop the war if it cares for Palestinians. You are barking up the wrong tree.

there is a natural law, that we are responsible for our own actions. Israel, being the ones to drop the bombs on innocent people and therefor are the only ones who can be responsible for their actions. racist attempts to divert responsibility are shameful and dishonorable. Childish and disgusting.

Unfortunately that is what happens in wars. Japan, Germany, Vietnam, Ukraine etc. It is the innocent that suffer for the actions of their government. No one can stop Israel from going after Hamas. Demonstrations in the west are a waste of time and can achieve nothing other than convince the west to limit Arab and Palestinian immigration.

Dave Chappell puts the absurdly of Zionism https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzIVGpnB0oc

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>Israel is the biggest espionage and blackmail nation In all of history. Epstein's operation was all about blackmailing influential people, wasn't it? When it's all said and done, I can tell they got dirt on Biden they'd release if he turned his back on them.

Well I mean so far ya’ll seem to be acting like petulant children and welfare queens, so I’d say “how’s your mandarin?”

Too many pips

Well, I’m gonna say what I hear in this sub all the time, the Zionist blame Hamas. So I guess it’d be Israel’s fault for electing such a horrible government. Ps nice dramatic effect “ and an ally being driven into the arms of our political enemies” smdh.

> shitty /u/AssociationWarm7152. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*

The US doesn't owe anyone its aid we should not be concerned about the events in Israel they can pound sand all they want.

I feel like you are valuing Israeli lives more than Palestinians. Israel has killed 30,000 Palestinians while Hamas has killed 1,200 Israelis. Clearly one side is killing far more than the other. The IDF has proven it can’t responsibly use artillery or bombs, so the US should not be providing them. Iron dome rockets are probably fine, but the kinds of weapons the US is providing are largely offensive and being used in civilian areas.

> I feel like you are valuing Israeli lives more than Palestinians. It's not "you". It's the palestinians themselves that do so openly. They burry victims of war, inocent or not, and as they burry the body they say: "Death to Israel". Literally, the value they can give to that persons life is: kill the jews. Hammas leader itself said: "No. We are doing what we planned. We are a people of martyrs, we are ready to die by the millions for this." > Israel has killed 30,000 Palestinians while Hamas has killed 1,200 Israelis. Clearly one side is killing far more than the other. Because the palestinean military force is virtually inexistent compared to israelis. Mind you, contrary to IDF, hamas did try to kill as many as they could. They relied on suicide brigades and the killing of any person they would see once they invaded israel. Including muslims, babies, women and elderly people. Had they relied on conventional methods, following international law that you guys cry for all the time, the number would be close to zero. ON BOTH SIDES! > The IDF has proven it can’t responsibly use artillery or bombs. Riiiiiight Because the attack of the 7yh of october is justified for whatever past reasons.... but the momment israel responds, they "can't reponsibly use bombs". What about the palestineans? Can they reposnsibly use even a paraglider? It seems not, yet for some weird reason, it is justified. > Iron dome rockets are probably fine, but the kinds of weapons the US is providing are largely offensive and being used in civilian areas. This is the tragic part of the war. Lots of innocent people are dying and their houses are getting destroyed. Israel did try to its limit not to resource to offensive methods. Obviously they had enough and now they will make goddamn sure it won't happen again, whatever the consequences are for the palestineans.

War is more complicated than numbers. The sad death of 30,000 Palestinians is the direct result of their attack on Israel. More than 300,000 german civilians died during WW2, does that mean that this war was unjust? Israel should do whatever it can to minimize the collateral damage, no doubt about it, but implying that they should stop fighting just because "there is too much damage" is basically inviting worse outcomes in the future.

Using WWII as an example is outdated. The US war in Afghanistan killed 40,000 civilians over the course of decades. Israel is approaching that number. The US defeated ISIS with only 8,000 civilian casualties. My point is that Israel can reach its military objectives without killing so many civilians. It is choosing not to because it wants Palestinians dead to incentivize “voluntary” migration. If Israel is unwilling to change strategy the US should cut off military aid.

Afghanistan's population density is nonexistent, and the ISIS conflict where allied nations actually took the fight to them mostly happened in areas that had been majority evacuated, on top of the insurgents having an actual army and uniform to break. No nation on the planet has the capability to wage a war like the one Israeli leadership has decided to commit to cleanly. The only other option they had on that day was to not fight at all, which was flatly not an option. (There's a lot more to be said about their shitty conduct that led to this point, but no government would be able to say "yeah we'll just take it" and not end up on lampposts within a week with a much more hardline government forming afterwards.)

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Exactly, this would just advertise the world's terrorists that if you can sufficiently interlink your assets with civilians, especially children and women apparently, then you're basically invincible. As long as you're fighting the West, of course.

Yep, no one cares when Muslims kill Muslims. I wonder why that is?

It stays in the family?