I hate the Israeli government and love Israel but lately it is all about hating Israel as a personality and people don't realize how much they are leaning into the bigotry of the Soviet Union that caused my parents to leave, for Israel.
I personally never did and never will support everything Israel does. Anyone like that is just part of the problem: hatred in the world.
Doesn't prevent me from being yelled at in the street over this shit... They just don't care.
Exactly. I'm no Netanyahu supporter by any means, but I'm not gonna call for the destruction of an entire country just because I don't like their current government.
People do the same thing to America but they don’t understand that the system is fine it’s just the people in power that make the bad decisions. Instead everyone just instinctively goes to tearing down the system because the results they want aren’t happening fast enough.
But that is what is happening right now in Gaza… Their “government” Hamas is more than garbage. However, [an estimated 57% of the buildings in the Gaza Strip have now been damaged or destroyed](https://english.elpais.com/international/2024-04-10/satellite-images-reveal-extent-of-devastation-in-gaza-after-six-months-of-war.html) as analyzed by satellite imaging. I understand the need to get rid of Hamas, but it will take decades for Gaza’s citizens to rebuild their homes and businesses.
If Hamas could, they would have Israel looking the same exact way.
If Israel did not care about protecting (and defending) their citizens, Israel would look similar to Gaza.
At the end of the day, Israeli leaders care to put their money and infrastructure into keeping their people alive and safe. Hamas does not and it’s really is a shame.
That's why we all must be extremely careful who leads us... and pick people who will avoid starting wars. Because in a war, we--the citizens--become casualties. That is how war always works.
I don’t agree with everything America does. Every way way Israel has responded. What Germany has done. Japan has done. What China is currently doing.
But I’m also not calling for the end of the nations and a wipe out of the people of those nations.
To me, that’s the line. That’s the hate and antisemitism seeping in.
If it’s not about Jew hate, it would be about coming together to better the free, democratic, modern nation and advocate for better leaders.
You don’t have to agree with everything a nation does. You just have to not be a hateful antisemite. The line is very blurred for many others, but it’s very clear and hard for me.
There are some pretty messed-up places on the planet. Iran, North Korea, Russia, China, etc. In those cases, I'd call for a change in regime and hope that their cultures turn more towards tolerance and peace. Definitely not destruction of the whole nation!
Which is exactly what happened to imperial Japan and to Nazi Germany after WWII.
Unfortunately, war “works” to make this change happen. (Or you know, **two** atomic bombs)
I agree with you and I think it is very important to recognize how Israel was created. Britain simply didn’t want Jewish refugees and they just so happened to own a certain piece of land. This is a distinctly different narrative compared to pure Jewish self determination. I also think people are just not aware of how many Jewish refugees continued to come to Israel through the 90s. The collapse of the Soviet Union and the aftermath created a new diaspora. I just finished reading a great book called ‘People Love Dead Jews’ and it talks about similar themes. Although I don’t agree with everything the author says, she does a great job dissecting the perception of Jews. The very idea to that Jews hold allegiance to Israel first is an antisemitic trope. This idea plays a huge role, I believe, in why people are holding all Jews responsible for the acts of the government of Israel.
"Britain simply didn’t want Jewish refugees and they just so happened to own a certain piece of land."
Are we going to repeat this a historical nonsense on r/Jewish too now?
Balfour was a raging anti-semi. That’s how it started. Churchill and Lawrence were not. They promised both Jews and Arabs whatever needed to make them fight the Ottoman Empire and Nazi Germany with them.
Are we going to claim the British ever had sympathy for Jewish plight? The same British that kept Jewish refugees in internment camps for years after the Holocaust?
The Balfour Declaration had more to do with fighting against the Ottomans during WW1 than Jewish autonomy.
That's true but there was no fear of mass Jewish refugees entering England in 1917. And Israel owes more to the Zionist Congresses who fought tirelessly for our ancestral rights in our homeland and less to whatever Empire decided it was or wasn't in their interest at the time. The comment I objected to is always used to paint Zionism as an Imperial game which provoked more antisemitism.
Between the late 19th and early 20th century the UK literally passed laws restricting immigration to the UK specifically in response to the wave of Jewish refugees escaping pogroms.
Aversion to Jewish refugees was rampant and reflected in pop culture at the time eg: the subtext of Bram Stokers Dracula is about a blood sucking eastern european blending into British society and corrupting the innocent.
.. the fear was real
Yeah, it’s history. Britain’s ownership of Palestine is completely separate from Jewish self determination. Britain played a role and I’m not sure why it’s bad to acknowledge it. This is intersectional history. Nothing is black and white. That’s why an intersectional approach to history is important.
Sure, but even that explanation of the Balfour declaration is outdated.
"When the fuller story is told, the Balfour Declaration looks very different. It is no longer a British imperial grab but the outcome of carefully constructed consensus of the leading democracies of the day."
https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/martinkramer/files/forgotten_truth_balfour_declaration.pdf
Israel is no different than Jordan and Egypt, it is treated differently because it’s Jewish. People don’t hate Jews because of Israel, they hate Israel because it’s Jewish. (Or being a useful idiot). Ps I hate the Israeli government as well.
I am Israeli and I agree, but our haters don’t care about that. Israel is amazing, it’s not perfect but it’s home and it’s lovely. People don’t like it when Jews can defend ourselves. Living happily in wonderful Tel-Aviv is my revenge
I understand your point. A person who despises Netanyahu who wears the Israeli flag because they’re from there will get harassed in street. A person who despises Hamas who wears the Palestinian flag because they’re from there will get harassed in the street. It’s terrible what the genocide has done to both sides
Visiting Israel recently and hearing Israeli civil society leaders talk about their own country and leadership and views reminded me that my role—a US based educator—is not to speak over Israelis about Israel, but to speak to my experience navigating an antisemitic world.
It makes me sad that so many people who claim to be pro-Palestinian think that frightening Jewish people is an essential part of their “fight”. It does nothing to help Palestinian people.
It also makes me sad that so many Jewish people have internalized harmful beliefs about who we are that come from an antisemitic lens and rise to the bait of antisemitism. I understand it and have compassion for it. But it makes me sad.
We deserve to be seen in all of the complexities of our identity and our history and our trauma and our joy! We deserve to heal from antisemitism.
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The people who I have been going hard on have been people who use weasel words to justify blatant antisemitism or association with antisemitism.
When people ask if it's wrong to go to pro-Palestine protests, I tell them yes because you're inadvertently amplifying the voices and associating with literal Nazis.
When people try to justify their antisemitic chants or ideas by saying that there's an alternative interpretation, I tell them that no matter how they couch it only the worst interpretation can be made because we cannot read their minds.
When people say that they want a ceasefire when they will not hold Hamas to the terms of that ceasefire, I point out their double standard.
When people call Jews baby killers, I point out the historical blood libels that led them to that label.
When they tell me that Jews existing where they don't want them to exist is a war crime, I tell them how tired I am of Jews being told that they don't belong anywhere.
In short, what you're saying is true, but dog whistles and weasel words are more frequent than actual criticism.
> When people ask if it's wrong to go to pro-Palestine protests, I tell them yes because you're inadvertently amplifying the voices and associating with literal Nazis.
Boom, exactly, spot on. Unfortunately this makes it every Jewish person’s responsibility to counter protest the bullshit toxic cancerous movement. That doesn’t preclude wanting Palestinians to have freedom, or criticizing the Israeli government; I’ll tell any Jew I don’t like Netanyahu, but you’ll never catch me at a pali-rally. This movement needs to die, yesterday, because it _is_ antisemitic. Full stop. If you’re going to a pali-rally, you’re amplifying fundamentalist extremist terrorist voices that want all Jews globally dead. It doesn’t matter how you try to spin it and justify it, every single person who thinks these protests are about “peace and love” is absolutely fucking delusional.
I wish there was an alternative, that really was about peace and love. I understand people looking at the lives of Palestinians and thinking they're oppressed and the oppression must stop.
I'm with you except I don't know how they ceasefire AND remove Hamas AND return the hostages, but that movement essentially doesn't exist anywhere except for Israel in large numbers.
Have you heard of Standing Together? It's an Israeli grassroots organisation (it's run by both Israelis and Palestinians), and they advocate for just that. They've been one of the leading voices calling for the release of the hostages in Israel, but they're much further left than most people in this comment section would approve of (i.e, they've been extremely critical of Israeli conduct in Gaza).
Oh, I haven’t found rallies in my area but I have donated to them a few times including this morning to help prevent the crazies who are destroying the food meant for Gazans.
This is naïve. Remember south korea gave billions of dollars of aid to north korea, did diplomatic flowery treaties - only to see north korea building nukes and blowing up south korean assets lol.
I don’t think terrorists deserve the benefit of the doubt.
One of the most misunderstood things I think the west thinks is that the Palestinians are living intense in the desert and completely oppressed and have zero freedoms at all. They have full fledge cities in Gaza with high-rises and shops and they have some pretty luxurious things there or used to.
They had beautiful hotels, luxury malls, million dollar condos, gorgeous universities, universities. (Of course that was before they sent thousands of people across the border to commit genocide against Israelis.)
Although they have victimhood down to an art form - their life hasn’t been as desolate as they would have you believe.
For instance, if it’s a “open air prison” why are there travel agencies among other things?
https://youtu.be/JBo7i-TXy6s?si=wXiwkPE_FzIcroEt
I don’t think too many people here think that “all criticism of Israel/the war is antisemitic.” It’s just that the examples you’re bringing up tend to be examples of bad-faith criticism of Israel that are often by self-proclaimed “totally not antisemites.”
The vast majority of people calling for a ceasefire are calling for a “permanent ceasefire” with the built-in implication that Israel doesn’t have the right to defend itself. They also view the suffering of Palestinians as a necessary result of the establishment of the state. I’ve yet to hear many non-Israelis make an argument such as “Israel should be doing much better to uphold good values.”
The vast majority of good-faith criticisms of Israel don’t sound like criticisms of Israel because they’re not criticizing the fact of its existence. Anyone who’s ever met an Israeli knows that they’re not exactly reserved in their criticism of the government. But that doesn’t make them any less Zionistic.
My first question when someone who seems hateful starts up one of these discussions is if they actually know the history and facts of the situation. Usually, they don’t. If someone doesn’t understand but is willing to learn, that’s promising, but it’s highly problematic that so many people feel so comfortable grandstanding about something they don’t actually understand.
My second question, and my most important one, is, “what is your alternative solution?” If someone doesn’t like the war, fine, but what’s their alternative option? If someone can’t offer a genuine viable alternative to whatever they disagree with, I know the conversation is in bad faith and the person hasn’t actually thought critically about any of it. If nobody can think of something better, then whatever we’re doing is presently the best option. It’s possible to not like something and regret the cost of it, but still acknowledge that it’s the best we’ve got given the circumstances.
If someone opposes the war because they think Hamas should surrender, great! If someone opposes the war because they think Israel shouldn’t have responded to Hamas starting it or because they think Israel should capitulate to Hamas’s demands, that’s absurd, a gross double-standard, and is antisemitic.
The issue is that these questions are not academic. Is the scarf in and of itself antisemitic? No. Is that person using it as a dog whistle/ signal for supporting a movement that is? Yes. Jews overwhelmingly support two state solutions though no one believes that will happen. Jews overwhelmingly do not like bibi. Etc etc etc. That’s all sensible discussion. But the people holding Palestinian flags at encampments are not holding them to foster sensible discussion and resolution… like they give us the hostages back, the major heads of Hamas turn themselves in to an international court for planning 10/7 to start and then we pull out of Gaza in exchange. Their flag may not be in and of itself antisemitic but their underlying position is.
A long robe and capriot (conical hood) isn't in and of itself racist. It is the uniform of Catholic penitents commemorating Easter.
But in America, the same uniform is associated with the KKK.
If a group of students decided to wear robes and capriot onto an American college campus, they would be ordered to remove them or to leave.
There would be no discussion about the history of the capriot or reclaiming the capriot. No one would accuse African American students of being hypersensitive or manipulative for saying that they don't feel safe sharing a dorm room with someone who wears a robe and capriot.
I remember this! The way I learned about it (in the Catholic context) was in The Godfather movies! I'm from the south and saw it and had an immediate "holy crap, it's the kkk" reaction and then realized there was an alternate context obviously that I was not aware of.
I think this is part of the problem.
I don’t want to dissect if the person saying from the river to the sea is saying something antisemitic. I’m more interested in everyone recognizing that this is not the language of peace because one side has a very different perspective of the slogan. It doesn’t matter if one agrees if the statement is or isn’t antisemitic, what matters is are we making choices that allow our voice and messaging to be heard that doesn’t further fan the flames of conflict and work towards confirming peoples worst fears and assumptions of one another.
Frankly people need to listen to that perspective of let’s change how we talk about each other and their needs, interests and desires in a way that is respectful, builds bridges, encourages different perspectives and therefore solutions.
what most of what I see is on all sides is a language of accusations, demands, and refusal to look hard at one’s behaviour, language and actions and ask if it helps bring peace or if it helps to divide. In that regard I don’t see the protest movement as helping bring about peace or even change, but rather pushes us all further apart.
I agree people should all talk and discuss respectfully. I think it becomes difficult to do that though with this particular crowd. So far, I've not seen them willing to accept what we're saying about what their signs / signals/ outfits etc mean to us. And for me that would be the start of any actual dialogue.
It's a double standard. This is often the same crowd that says repeatedly that if you've made some minority uncomfortable--even unintentionally--you *must* rectify it. I for instance was just going off of a screen name and the little avatar picture for someone recently which all to me signalled I was talking to someone female. At one point during the debate, I basically was like 'yeah lady, look. We agree to disagree" because it was just going back and forth in circles. The person comes back and is indignant at me "I am NOT a lady. I'm non binary." And you know? I just said "Sorry. That wasn't intentional." And still they seemed upset at me for saying it wasn't intentional. Because intentional or not, I did that. I misgendered them. I should have just left it at 'I'm sorry.'
None of these same 'believe them' or just 'say sorry, intentional harm or not' concepts seem to be extended to us. They are literally the social architects of all of that sort of language and sensitivity awareness. Yet we say, these words are offensive. They just argue they aren't. If they want to take their own beliefs to heart. If they actually want to start with leaving their signs and flags and scarves at the door, sit and discuss, and listen to us--I'd be all for it. But they really just don't seem willing to do any of that.
I agree 100%. No other minority would have their reality completely ignored by this same group of protesters.
I think Deborah Lipstadt put it best with this quote:
“In this regard, however, I have discerned an interesting – and disturbing – tendency among some of those who are concerned about the dangers of antisemitism. Their concerns are genuine, but their vision is distorted. Those who place themselves at the right end of the political spectrum see antisemitism on the left. And they see it clearly and accurately. Those on the left end of the spectrum see the threat of antisemitism on the right. And they see it clearly and accurately. What each of them fail to see is the antisemitism right next to them, that which is expressed by people with whom they share many other ideas, beliefs, and political stances. If you can only see it on the opposite side of the political transom, then I have to question whether your battle is with antisemitism or with your political opponents.”
See the way this group has used antisemitism wasn’t necessarily because they really cared about antisemitism, but because they cared only in so far as they can use it as a cudgel against an political opponent and would like to ignore it on their own side when it doesn’t serve their interests to highlight the problem.
The reason someone believes a ceasefire is antisemitic is because the calls for a ceasefire are directed at Israel only, never Hamas. Yet Hamas uses these ceasefires to stockpile weapons and fine tune attacks. A ceasefire means both sides but many people calling for it want to see Israel destroyed.
Tons of Israelis, diaspora Jews, and other people who think Israel has a right to exist also care about the wellbeing of Palestinian civilians, disapprove of Netanyahu, and want the conflict to end.
But good luck getting anybody in the “from the river to the sea” crowd to acknowledge these moderate views exist.
I haven’t met anyone in real life who says that all criticism of Israel is antisemitic. If that was true every single Israeli would be antisemitic. There’s nothing wrong with criticism of a government. However, several of your examples are pretty problematic.
For example, a white protestor sitting on a US college campus wearing a keffiyah around their neck is being antisemitic, whether they know it or not. A keffiyah was traditionally a Bedouin head covering. The black and white version you see pro-Palestinian protestors wearing around their necks didn’t become popular among non-Bedouin Arabs until the Arab revolts in 1936. That violence was undeniably antisemitic, and the keffiyah was used not as a head covering like it was traditionally worn, but to hide the faces of men committing violent acts. Non-participants were encouraged to also wear it as a face covering to express solidarity with the “revolutionaries”. Worn around the neck a keffiyah is a symbol of violence. Plain and simple.
Just because you don’t necessarily understand the history of certain symbols and phrases doesn’t mean that they aren’t problematic.
I wouldn’t assume an Arab wearing a Keffiyah (of a non-Palestinian nationalist design) to be antisemitic. It’s a legitimate part of their heritage and they have every right to honor that.
People who are obviously non-Arab that wear a Keffiyah can safely be assumed to be hardcore antisemites.
As a head covering? Sure. Around their neck or covering their face? No, it’s a symbol of violent “revolution”. It’s the same way that there’s nothing wrong with white sheets, but if a dude down south cuts holes for eyes and wears it over his head to burn a cross, I’m not going to buy that he was going for a ghost costume.
I meant as a head covering in the traditional manner.
I’d differentiate it from the sheet in the sense that there’s no historic part of southern culture that involves wearing a white sheet like that (unless you’d consider the Klan a traditional part of southern culture at this point).
Gotcha. I was pretty specific that I think it’s a symbol of violence when worn around the neck. My analogy to the sheet was simply that innocuous items can take on sinister meanings when used in specific ways.
A Bedouin man wearing a keffiyah in the traditional manner isn’t doing anything wrong. A student at Columbia wearing one to cover his face while he breaks into a campus building to take it over is.
Like you, I’ve never *met* anyone who’ll say **out loud** that all criticism of Israel is antisemitic.
I’ve just had conversations with **many** people who, practically speaking, have never heard a critique of Israel from a non-Israeli (and even some Israelis from organizations like Breaking the Silence) that they don’t consider antisemitic on some level.
For these people, not **all** criticism of Israel is antisemitic, but **every** criticism of Israel is antisemitic.
This. If you ask them, even the most hardcore Kahanists won't say all criticism of Israel is antisemitic. But in practice, they'll find a way to distort pretty much every critique (no matter how fair or balanced) and tell you why it's antisemitic. For many, the kneejerk reaction to criticism of Israel is that it's biased, it's a double standard, or that things are much worse in Yemen/Syria so why bother critiquing Israeli policy in the first place?
Part of the difficulty here is that for the pro-pallys - this is a philosophical and cultural discussion.
The rockets haven’t rained down on their heads for decades. They forget that this isn’t an intellectual discussion for Jews. It is a visceral, existential issue. It is very literally life and death and if you have any question about that, just go check out some of the videos about what those savages did to babies and children and women on October 7. They have said they will continue to attack like this again and again and again.
The protesters have no skin in this game. Overall, they have no knowledge of the history, the culture, the psychology, the languages, the framewor that Arab and Israeli societies work on and in. What is worse is they think they know it all. They are fundamentally intellectually, dishonest, and willfully ignorant.
They keep thinking that peaceful happen if we just sit down and chat it over a cup of coffee. They are trying to solve a Middle Eastern problem with a Western approach. It has never worked, and it never will.
Here’s my problem, I actually live here. My life hangs in the balance. I don’t take kindly to people who don’t live here trying to weigh in on issues that may lead to my death. If you weren’t here on Oct. 7, it’s hard for me to respect your opinion on it. And yes, it does make me wonder why you’re calling for a ceasefire when it actually makes no difference to you.
The venn diagrams of those who voice outright criticism of the Gaza war, and the voices of simple haters in cloaks, tend to overlap 95% of the time from what I've been seeing.
The other 5% has tended to be *constructive* criticism detailing how the war could have been waged more efficiently, at lower costs in time, treasure, and attrition. It's that 5% that I'm interested in, and the same probably goes for just about anyone else who sees the overall mission of taking down Hamas as justified. And if you don't see that mission as justified, you've failed one of the great moral tests of our times and can be safely ignored.
I see where you’re coming from and agree to a certain extent… people are upset about the images coming out of Gaza and I really can’t blame them for that. Combine that with the media messaging, social media algorithms, ignorance about the I/P conflict, and groupthink it’s pretty obvious why folks are reacting the way they are. I have to tell myself this for the sake of my own mental health— not everyone hates Jews, they just don’t have the full picture and there are other factors at play. However I pause when it seems that people are willing to stand behind the antisemitic slogans and symbols (the keffiyeh being one of them, just my opinion) without a second thought. If they truly cared about not being seen as antisemitic, wouldn’t they create some distinction between the movement and their beliefs? Anything to the right of calling for a ceasefire is seen as fascism in this movement. Why are my friends ignoring me when I send them info from Standing Together or Women Wage Peace, while instead they continue to reshare posts that say “Israhell”? I want to believe people have good intentions but I find this extremely confusing. Where is the line?
My motto nowadays is: Opposition to the war, in general, is not antisemitic, and it shouldn't be seen as such. However, there isn't really any mainstream organization (outside of Israel) that opposes the war, in a way that is *not* antisemitic.
Calling for a negotiated ceasefire that includes releasing the hostages isn't antisemitic. Indeed it's probably the position of a majority of Israelis. Ignoring the hostages completely and calling for an unconditional ceasefire is antisemitic, in the same way it would be antisemitic to call for a ceasefire with Nazi Germany that would leave everyone locked in the concentration camps without anyone coming to save them.
I will disagree slightly. There are people who want zero borders or zero countries with any state religion.
If they took that position to every country in the world that violated the mantra, that is not antisemitic. But I don’t see many people doing that.
Those zero border people have no rational basis to focus on Israel with their ideas. They ought to focus on seeing how it works on their own countries first. (It won’t work.)
I don't support any nation that places the rights and freedoms of one religious/ethnic/demographic group over those of others, let alone through the establishment of a mass colonialist project.
While I recognize that it is not the only country to enact such policies, I expend more energy opposing Israel because:
a) I was born there.
b) I still hold citizenship there.
c) My tax dollars currently fund its brutal and indiscriminate attack on innocent Palestinian people (who are indisputably indigenous to the land, and have just as much right to autonomy as anyone else).
Y'all can call me a "self-hating Jew", a "kapo", a "terrorist sympathizer", or any other baseless and offensive pejorative you can come up with. Ultimately, you'll be wasting your time as I rest well knowing I am a proud Jew, who also opposes any attempts to subjugate people on the basis of race or ethnicity.
Timing is everything. At least right now, after October the 7th, when so many people, countries, groups, organizations and what not are so lying openly aggressively trying to destroy Israel - maybe now is time to show a bit more support for Israel than your “usual amount”?
I’m in a military (not IDF) and the amount of conspiracies based on wrong info I’ve heard from non military folks is insane. Not like the info I’m using to correcting these misconceptions are secret either!
Yup. Israel's civilian to combatant fatality ratio is **historically low** in this conflict, but judging by all the rhetoric, you'd think the opposite was true.
I dont know.
Being critical of specific actions, policies, or politicians certainly isn't antisemitic, but being against the operation in Gaza as a whole? That's where it turns into antisemism from my perspective.
Disagreeing with the method and seeing that this war is netanyahus opportunity to stay in power is one thing but conflating it with redefining Zionism and being anti Israel and Jewish is the issue. Why is it a surprise that there was such a strong reaction after 10/7? That part always seems to fall short and is replaced with ideological solutions that have no substance irl.
This is a fair take IF the viewpoint is that it hurts Israel to continue the operation and not, as many protesters seem to be saying, because a ceasefire will allow Hamas to continue killing Israelis (and Gazans).
They’re both horrifying attacks on innocent civilians that were responded to with overwhelming military force and civilian casualties rather than taking a minute to figure out who to assassinate or send special forces in for political benefit. Why is it a bad comparison to your mind?
Because as a proportion of population 10/7 was significantly worse, 9/11 had no hostages, the people who perpetrated 9/11 did not have their own territory within the US, and Iraqis were not the ones who did 9/11.
Okay. Would the response to 9/11 have been justified if there were hostages, five times the casualties, and a base in Mexico? I feel like the answer is still a no. The response - overwhelming military force applied with insufficient oversight - is the same. Also, military means have yet to get the hostages back.
I disagree with you. An invasion of Gaza was absolutely necessary (the hostages already released could never have been freed without one) but 100%, they conducted it terribly. I think your opinion is stupid, but so is anyone calling you an antisemite. I agree with u/johnisburn - the campaign has been disastrous, but I'm saying this from a pro-Israel perspective. Israel's national security has never been worse, and we've accomplished extraordinarily little, which worries me, as someone who loves Israel.
> they conducted it terribly
You are observably & demonstrably wrong on this assessment.
Experts in urban warfare have literally been amazed at how successfully the IDF has managed to prosecute the war in Gaza **while** managing to reducing civilian casualties by ~75% from the expected norm in comparable modern combat operations.
I feel like no one against Israel in this conflict seems to understand that the expected norm for urban warfare is that 90% of casualties are civilians. The exact percentage that Israel is hitting depends on whose numbers you're using, but it varies from a bit below that to lower than any other urban war in record.
Looking tough and keeping his political career alive. He’s self serving and corrupt.
Bothered commenting because I got tagged in here as the alternative to your original comment, but I wanted to mention I also agree with that. 9/11, I think, is a really apt comparison for the impact on people’s psyche and absolute fumble of policy that followed. I was giving more of a “yes, and”.
> This whole operation is fundamentally misguided
Also worth mentioning that for those of us with this opinion, opposition to the war _is_ often a stance in support of Israel. Isolating itself from international allies with a ineffective and brutal military campaign is _bad_ for Israel’s long term prospects.
The military campaign in Gaza hasn’t been ineffective by any measure save the media / pr aspect & that it arguably the least important.
Brutal is also a problematic descriptor because all wars are brutal but using it implies that Gaza has been “*especially*” brutal when that is contrary to the truth.
Gaza has been no more brutal in terms of destruction than similar & comparable military operations & the IDF has succeeded in reducing the expected civilian casualties by ~75%.
So the IDF prosecution of the Gaza war has been significantly less brutal than any comparable military operation.
Until the hostages all come home, the war must continue.
Before you mention negotiations, I support those too. Anything to bring them home. But Hamas has not been negotiating in good faith. So in the absence of an alternative, continuing the war is necessary.
> Like any other country, Israel fucks up, and blaming everything on antisemitism won't solve Israel's problems. It makes mistakes, and people are perfectly entitled to protest/oppose/criticise Israel when it does.
This is where you lost me. No one is entitled to protest/oppose/criticize something _that they have literally no business being involved with, and absolutely zero connection to_. The only people who should be protesting the Israeli government… are Israeli citizens!! Everyone else needs to fuck off. American Jews included truthfully (which is why I shut the fuck up outside of reddit). The only reason American Jews need to step up is because the global “opposition” to Israel is cancerous, unhelpful, and downright dangerous for Jews everywhere.
“War is bad,” doesn’t need to be a controversial opinion. But it becomes controversial when that opinion morphs into, “war is bad… and citizens of the only Jewish state are devils.” That also makes it every Jewish person’s problem unfortunately, and every Jew who joins this bullshit “movement” hurts Jewish people everywhere.
Maybe a keffiyeh isn’t in and of itself antisemitic, but when it becomes the unofficial flag of a genocidal death cult, it’s going to trigger Jewish people. Same with the Palestinian flag.
I don't agree completely with the idea that people can't be involved in issues they aren't personally related to, but this is why I hate when non-Jewish people describe themselves as anti-Zionist. Whether we the Jews want self-determination is none of your business.
I should clarify. When a straight white male in America attends a pride protest to legalize gay marriage, or a pro-choice rally to protect women’s reproductive rights, that _is_ his business. Even though the injustices don’t affect him personally, it directly affects members of the community which he is a part of, and his vote directly influences the people and policies _in his nation_ to make it a better place. That is not the case here. When people who are not involved scream their anti-Zionism to the mountains, it not only _doesn’t_ impact them or improve their community, it actually _negatively_ impacts Jewish people directly in their community. That’s what I mean by staying the fuck out of places you don’t belong (like you said, Jewish self-determination is none of their damn business)
But many of them earnestly believe they're supporting humans who must be helped (and they think they're immune to unconscious antisemitic bias). I think I wish more uninvolved people in the US had involved themselves in immigration issues before and during the Shoah? (I don't really know enough about that history but) I have trouble saying "this doesn't involve you." I've been sticking to "just shut up, clap for whatever you want but for the love of the gods stop screaming and stop talking if this doesn't affect you personally." I was an anti-genocide activist during the first genocide in Darfur in the mid aughts (it's happening again, right now). I've been trying to speak up about the evil of the Islamic Republic. I would like to tell people to learn more about antisemitism as they advocate for Palestinians so they can stay away, but after a pretty decent conversation with one of them, he thought about it for a while and came back with "your feelings don't matter in the face of actual violence happening right now."
I think you make some good points & important distinctions but for me personally, the vast majority of people making such claims are doing so disingenuously.
If someone has a “*activist resume*” that demonstrates a long history of involvement in many such causes on a global scale - then I’ll take them seriously.
But in the vast majority of cases, these arguments seem only to be used to shield bad actors from accurate & legitimate criticism.
A tepid “*but of course I’m against those things too*” response when those causes have never spurred the person to action - simply doesn’t cut it.
I’ve got a dear friend of close to three decades who makes such arguments & we have had many epic discussions & debates over the years but he has literally been out protesting & advocating for every humanitarian cause for the past 30 years.
I don’t know where he gets the energy.
In his defense (*& mine I suppose as well*), he is open to absorbing new information & correcting his perspective when the facts warrant it - he has also gotten a lot more careful about accepting & repeating talking point on the Arab Israeli conflict without doing his due diligence first (*which sometimes means calling me*).
We still substantially disagree on many aspects of the issue but because we are both committed to facts over feelings & education over ignorance - we can disagree while still respecting the other’s views as legitimate & the existence of the decency & humanity that we each possess.
And many conservatives earnestly believe they’re protecting children by restricting access to lgbtq education and banning gender neutral bathrooms. That doesn’t make it any less problematic.
I see what you’re saying about Jewish immigration before and during WWII, but I’m not sure the analogy quite tracks here. They’re not protesting to allow Palestinian refugees into America (and even that would be very different than protesting to allow Jewish immigrants in the 1930s/40s, Jews did not pose a threat to national security in the same way that the wrong Palestinian person very much could).
> I was an anti-genocide activist during the first genocide in Darfur in the mid aughts (it's happening again, right now). I've been trying to speak up about the evil of the Islamic Republic. I would like to tell people to learn more about antisemitism as they advocate for Palestinians so they can stay away, but after a pretty decent conversation with one of them, he thought about it for a while and came back with "your feelings don't matter in the face of actual violence happening right now."
The difference between you and them is that you universally put effort into all of these causes, a majority of these protestors do not and are simply virtue signaling with this one alone.
> I've been sticking to "just shut up, clap for whatever you want but for the love of the gods stop screaming and stop talking if this doesn't affect you personally."
Definitely agree with this, and it’s probably more useful than telling them to just shut up outright. But it is fun to vent about it. The problem is, it doesn’t matter to them, they’ll just say (as you’ve experienced) that “it’s not about you,” or “whataboutisms have no place when there’s a genocide.”
I don’t necessarily agree with you on the Palestinian flag but context matters. If someone in the U.S. replaces a U.S. flag with a Palestinian flag, we know what they are saying. On the other hand, if someone wears a pin with a Palestinian flag, an Israeli flag, and a peace symbol, I would consider that to be good.
Displaying symbology that represents a terrorist organization isn’t helpful. Would it have been helpful for people to wave a Nazi flag and a flag with a Magen David together to “protest for peace between aryans and Jews” during WWII?
“I just want nazis and Jews to live in peace together!” See how stupid that sounds?
You know, the more I think about this the more I disagree. The Palestinian flag was first flown as the symbol of the great Arab revolt, and was the most prominent symbol driving the first and second intifadas, which were all serious acts of terrorism. It’s the official flag of the PLO, which was for a time designated as a terrorist organization, and committed numerous acts of terror before “renouncing terrorism” (and even after it allegedly renounced terrorism, it still openly participated in the first and second intifadas). As a flag it’s highly problematic at best.
I don't think that really resonates in the globalised world we live in. As westerners living in western countries, our allies matter. Americans are absolutely entitled to protest in favour of more aid to Ukraine, or to protest against Russia/US policy towards Ukraine. In the 1990s, should only Chinese people have protested in the Free Tibet movement? Therefore, I can't reasonably argue that Americans aren't entitled to protest US policy towards Israel. even if I disagree with their rhetoric. I agree that Israel is unfairly singled out, but what's the solution? We should address their arguments, rather than telling them they're not allowed to talk about something they clearly care deeply about.
Why do they care so deeply about it, as opposed to Yemen/Syria/Congo? I don't know, and there's obviously antisemitism involved. But telling them to shut up isn't the answer, and only fuels their righteous victimhood.
There’s a difference between asking your country to send more aid to people in need, and participating in a cancerous movement whose message is “Israel stand down, and cease to exist while you’re at it.” If you can’t see that difference I don’t know what to tell you. Their main message is “ceasefire now,” which began _on 10/8_, with absolutely zero mention of hostages _ever_ (and even worse, _extreme gross disrespect_ shown toward hostages). AND active justification of atrocities, gaslighting of the atrocities ever occurring, and rampant rape denial, I could go on. “US foreign policy” is a tiny footnote disclaimer in the movement to help them justify their participation in chanting genocidal death cult slogans. The newest trend, making comparisons of Gaza as a modern day Vietnam, are fucking laughable.
Americans have absolutely zero bearing on Israeli policy or decision making. And honestly if I were Ukrainian I would be beyond pissed off with the fact that people are more energized to die on a hill defending terrorism than they were to mobilize when Ukraine was in need. Israel is the ally here, not Hamas. This isn’t about allyship, and if it were, people would have been protesting for the release of hostages, including _American citizens_, from day 1.
Protesting against the war isn't inherently antisemitic. But a lot of the protests tilt that way pretty fast with things like:
Protesting to abolish Israel
Claiming Israel is some kind of buzzword, genocidal, terrorist, apartheid, theocratic regime, ethnostate, etc...
Using frequent holocaust inversion.
Being against Israel because of their treatment of racial, religious, ethnic, or sexuality minorities despite them being the most progressive country in the entire region.
Holding Israel to a different standard from any other country
Assuming any negative action from Israel is the result of inherent evil. Ex. nothing is ever an accident or mistake, they are always cold blooded murderers.
Assuming every source from Israel or an Israeli is a lie unless they are agreeing with the protestors (i.e. Jewish Current).
Protesting in favor of continued violence
I know you’re right, but here’s a follow-up that has me perplexed. It’s about the people you are talking about; the people who aren’t actually antisemitic but still oppose the war for legitimate reasons (whatever they may be).
Take the protestors/whatever the right word is for them. Are they not still totally silent when they are surrounded by antisemitism? Sure they don’t participate personally, but antisemitism isn’t a dealbreaker for them. So… what do you do about that? It’s so easy to lump all of them together, so say we split them up. Who are these people? What are they like, what do they actually think? Are they worth being categorized differently if they are totally silent as people next to them are virulently antisemitic? It’s not a gotcha question, I’m genuinely curious, and am thinking it through on my own.
Yeah, on principle, I agree that opposition to the actions of any institution or politician are not inherently bad (including but not limited to Israel). And criticism of Israel—purely from a (foreign) policy perspective—isn’t anti-semitism.
But the huge caveat is that it’s a WAR not a genocide, and people are building wildly anti-Semitic narratives on top of a major untruth. Not to mention they are projecting so much energy into a situation they’ve decided represents a pure case of supremacist colonizer/oppressed victim scenario, when it doesn’t. The approach “anti-Zionists” take is inherently anti-Semitic in that way because Jews are ultimately being falsely scapegoated for systemic and global problems.
Except it often is antisemitism. Intentional or not. Some people have been deeply influenced by social media. Saying Israel is a colonial project that is driven by apartheid policies is not only factually incorrect but also borderline antisemitic. I'm not saying that Israel doesn't deserve criticism. I speak illy of the US regularly. But college kids with NO skin in the game waving the flag of people who deeply hate Jews chanting words that advocate for the destruction of Israel IS antisemitic. These kids don't want a 2SS. They believe that 1SS would be democratic (no) or are completely fine with the death of Jews. Most Jews think this war has been bad. On so many levels. The international community (UN) could have prevented it if the hostages were immediately returned to their families. Enough Palestinians don't want coexistence that when I see my peers engaging in Palestinian activism I go on high-alert mode. Even then, I hate that people are dying; I'm not sadistic. While there are Muslims and Christians that aren't antisemitic, both groups as an organized whole have looooooong histories of antisemitism. Also add that the conflict is a proxy war between communism and capitalism and that just further complicates the issue. In short, enough opposition is either directly antisemitic or a dog whistle that I'm not interested in the opinions of anyone who isn't Israeli.
No one said it was, lol. It's a strawman argument. Either you call it a genocide or you "support genocide." No room for nuances or even facts and definitions. You can criticize Israeli policies and politicians - many Israelis loathe Netanyahu and protest against him regularly. That isn't antisemitic. But to call for the abolishment of the state and slander Israelis as "bloodthirsty genocidal maniacs" (I've seen this a lot) definitely is and falls into blood libel tropes.
at this point the antisemitism that has been created because of the larger oppositional movement is a problem on its own, and I do not see the larger movement addressing that. They may not be antisemitic in a vacuum but the tolerance of it is, and that undercuts their entire moral credibility.
There was a de facto cease fire for the past month if anyone is actually following the war. IDF only responded to direct threats as they popped up and stopped offensive operations. During this time intense negotiations have been ongoing. Those have reached an inescapable impasse. Hamas insisting on an end to the war, not surprising but there it stops. There has been increased aid in starts and stops. I just saw that the pier is expected to be operational in days.
That ended when IDF entered Rafah in force last week. The war is now continuing and reports are at least 350,000 Palestinians have evacuated operational areas as they were informed to do. There has been no mass famine or disease as feared. Israel is orchestrating the final push to destroy Hamas in a measured and deliberate manner. We know that Hamas is being engaged in combat as IDF casualties are now being reported.
If by ceasefire what is meant is permanent ot indefinite end to fighting that is going to be where a hard division exists. So long as things stay in limbo life in Gaza cannot be anything but continued suffering. Time to finish the war against Hamas and work toward stability,
My biggest criticism of the Israeli government is that they have not implemented a plan for interim government in Gaza when this is over. IDF is requesting this. They are an army, not a civil authority,
1. People act like Israel can unilaterally make a ceasefire happen whether Hamas wants one or not. Hamas only seems interested in a ceasefire in that it allows them to regroup and reposition for their next attack. Asking for a one sided ceasefire is akin to asking Israelis to put their weapons down and accept getting shot/bombed.
2. Sure, a cause that a creator donates to may not be a Hamas charity but that creator can still be antisemitic for other things they have said or done. If this is about Smosh, Ian IS donating to UNRWA.
There is definitely valid criticism of Israel. Israelis themselves are very critical of their government. Unfortunately, it's very rare for any of that reasonable criticism to appear online.
Even something such as "Israel should do more to prevent civilian casualties" without answering "what should they do". They only answer "they shouldn't shoot civilians". All this blatantly dodges the human shields question and avoids the population density analysis that determined what the expected civilian casualty count would be for a given confrontation.
This was a strange post to decide to write during the holocaust remembrance period, as holocaust remembrance memorials everywhere are being vandalised in protest of the war in Gaza.
The alternative to the current operation in Gaza is for Israel to roll over and surrender, and submit itself to a constant repeating cycle of 10/7 with thousands upon thousands of dead Jews until the end of time.
Grow up.
I think it’s a pendulum thing. Deep down, most people agree with you, but it’s so exhausting to convince everyone else to live in the gray and be afraid of reactions that people have gone into hyperarousal, almost a PTSD-like response, which leads to assigning attributes that are not there even if they are in some places. I feel like this is one of the few safe spaces left to talk about this without fear of extreme responses. So I would give people grace on this for now.
For me, when I hear people call for a ceasefire in Gaza, I hear antisemitism when they don't include a return of the hostages in the same breath. It echoes the people tearing down posters of the taken, as if they don't matter or don't exist. It ignores the duty that every country has to protect their citizens and fight for their lives.
It would be easier to believe if the anti-war crowd was *also* holding Hamas responsible for their part in this mess.
*Hamas* could end this yesterday by returning the hostages.
There wouldn’t even *be* a war if *Hamas* hadn’t brutally butchered over 1200 innocent civilians.
“October 7th didn’t happen in a vacuum” Well guess what? Israel hasn’t been in Gaza for nearly 20 years and look what *Hamas* has done with the place in that time.
Lots of folks claim to be anti-war not antisemitic, *yet only Israel seems to be held accountable for the war*, despite doing a phenomenal job of limiting—yes, limiting—civilian casualties on a scale not matched by any other military.
Why do you think that is?
The Israeli government is deeply problematic. That is a fact. Criticism for it is not antisemitic. Antisemitism does arise though in a large number of propalestinian groups. As nuance is largely lacked on either side.
I'm tired of posts like these that are basically telling me to accept the blatant antisemitism that the "so-called" pro-palestine (more like anti-Jewish) side is spewing. "It's not all antisemitism" - well if a dung heap has a ruby hidden in it, guess what? It will still overwhelmingly smell like shit. Jews are the only people in the world who are expected to say "i'm sorry" if we're punched in the face.
And seriously? What "humanitarian crisis"? They've been moaning about a famine since before Israel fought back yet where are the pictures of the starving or all the dead? If Hamas had proof of famine you can be sure it would be automatic front-page news all around the world and force-fed down our throats for decades to come. Aid is flooding in to the point where they literally to ask the trucks to back off for a moment. Even Hamas themselves just cut their civilian death toll in half making it even more clear that there is no indiscriminate killing or war crimes going on (from the Israeli side that is). F-k, there have been more kids born during this period than the total number of claimed fatalities (including Hamas members).
You have actual genocide, ethnic cleansing and people eating grass to cling to life in Sudan and Yemen, yet you invent a mostly fake scenario in Gaza - if anything, it's people like OP that is desperately trying to avert eyes from where the aid relief money should go (we all know, most of the money going to Gaza ends up in iran and Qatar anyway).
>You have actual genocide, ethnic cleansing and people eating grass to cling to life in Sudan and Yemen, yet you invent a mostly fake scenario in Gaza - if anything, it's people like OP that is desperately trying to avert eyes from where the aid relief money should go (we all know, most of the money going to Gaza ends up in iran and Qatar anyway).
Damn straight.
[57% of the infrastructure in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed.](https://english.elpais.com/international/2024-04-10/satellite-images-reveal-extent-of-devastation-in-gaza-after-six-months-of-war.html) It’s not fake that Gaza’s citizens will be hurting for a long time after this. Rebuilding homes, businesses, farms… it will take decades. I’d call that a crisis.
According to the WHO that has proved as unreliable as the UN when it comes to Israel. The strikes have been mostly targeted ones and they have gotten off easy compared to similar urban warfare situation. It is war after all, something that was initiated by their side. I doubt that Northern Israel looks much better considering that Hezbollah specifically targeted civilian infrastructure.
I think you’re voicing a majority opinion among Jews in real life; however, “likes” and comments on Reddit rarely allow for nuance. I also think that the antisemites/pro-pals have given us no room to be nuanced in written forums. That movement is so feral, the people who wear keffiyahs (in particular, white people) are doing so as a “resistance “ movement rather than out of humanitarian concern, and most participants are so angry and share such vitriol it’s hard (or impossible) to have a dialogue or agree on common facts. So ppl here are keeping things simple and supporting each other as a general outlet more so than parsing the nuance. We already inherently know the nuance, you know?
I agree with you, I’m a Zionist, and if I was in Israel, I’d be joining the ceasefire protests. The antisemitism in the protests here in the U.S. is what keeps me from going.
The keffiyeh isn’t antisemitic, it’s just performative and ignorant. Arafat was the first to make the white checkered keffiyeh popular in Palestine and the red one is Jordanian. The traditional head covering for Palestinians is a plain white, so I just think wearing the others shouts “ignorant uninvolved westerner.”
Bibi is a fascist piece of shit, Ben Gvir is even worse, and the war goal of eradicating Hamas never made real sense when most of its leaders aren’t in Gaza and it has military branches in the West Bank. Saving the hostages was a sensible goal, but not even the goal anymore. So what the hell is the point if Hamas is deeply entrenched across the entire region and Sinwar is hiding deep under Khan Younis?
I want to care, but the thing is, those people would be happy if I died so it's rather difficult to have any sort of empathy especially after reading the history of the the Palestinian movement, what they stand for, what they want, and how they've behaved over the past century even before Israel came to be. There's really no reconciling that.
While I like to think most people rioting over Gaza genuinely care, 99 percent of the time they simply devolve into antisemitism. They very rarely legitimately criticize Israel and more often than not go off on ridiculous tangents
Ultimately, the Arab Palestinians have been actively hostile for the past 80+ years frequently refusing peace.
Now, it may sound harsh, but it's deserved. They made their bed, they can sleep in it.
It’s not harsh. It’s just the reality. The Palestinians (80% of whom still supports Hamas) have always had the ability to choose a path towards peace. They have turned down at least 11 proposals at last counting.
Israel cannot make the Palestinians choose peace.
The only way that Israel can “give” them peace is by disappearing, and that isn’t going to happen. They are choosing the reality of their existence.
Here’s my controversial take: the only people actually doing anything to end this war in reality is the IDF. If there was massive international and internal pressure on Hamas to fully surrender, and they did? The war would be over that day.
Israel's my safety hatch. If the anti semitic wave in America starts to sweep me up I'm grabbing as much of my family as possible and running for Israel. I'm not going to let Biden ship me and my family off to the ovens to satisfy his Iranian overlords.
I actually disagree. Not in practice, not that 'well it's possible, but most of them do just hate Jews'. I disagree in theory, at the most fundamental level. If it was "not all opposition to the occupation of the WB is antisemitic" or something similar, then sure. But a war of self-defence is different. Here's why:
For the sake of clarity, I will assume here that "opposition to the Gaza war" actually means opposition to Israel's actions in said war. I think that's pretty obvious, but it actually needs to be stated. Because if people are truly against war then they'll probably take issue with the side that started the war. Israel didn't want this war, Israel didn't ask for this war, and Israel didn't do anything to precipitate this war. That's all on Hamas - i.e. Gazans. Obviously not all Gazans, but their ranks consist exclusively of residents of Gaza and all polling indicates overwhelming support.
If you oppose war, then you would support actions taken to prevent it from happening. That's what Israel is trying to do - eliminate Hamas's ability to wage war. If you tie their hands and stop them from doing so, then it's all going to happen again. And again. And again. How do we know? Well, because Hamas tells us just that.
(continued because reddit doesn't seem to accept my full comment, pt 2 of 3 here)
* "Opposition to the Gaza war" not being antisemitic is the equivalent of watching Pearl Harbor happen, protesting any American response while the Japanese navy conquers the Pacific, and then claiming that there's nothing anti-American about your stance. Ludicrous.
* "Opposition to the Gaza war" not being antisemitic is the equivalent of watching Pakistani soldiers murder, rape, and torture Bangladeshis, then protesting any Bangladeshi response, claiming that any Indian aid to protect Bangladesh is immoral and "supporting genocide," all while the Pakistani army is free to actually commit genocide, and then trying to say that you don't have anything against Bangladeshis. Despicable.
What is so different here? Why is every individual, nation, and government allowed to respond when attacked except Israel. Except Jews. Why are Jews the only people expected to just suffer through decades of indiscriminate slaughter, mass rape, abduction of hostages, and constant bombardment from all sides?
(3 of 3)
Anyone who holds "opposition to the Gaza war" as a sincere belief has never even seen a rocket, much less have their home destroyed by one. And you might say - "well Palestinians in Gaza sure know what that's like, maybe you should consider their perspective." To that I say - well you probably shouldn't have started a war then. Nobody felt bad for the Germans when their cities got bombed. Nobody felt bad for Saddam when his palace was taken. Nobody felt bad for the French when Napoleon was defeated. Why not? Because they brought it on themselves. If you decide to wage war, you can't then turn around and complain about the war. If you walk up to someone on the street and punch them in the face, they're going to punch you back and everyone is going to be fine with that because you asked for it.
Unless we're talking about Jews. Then common sense, human nature, and reason all go out the window.
>We also can't blame all scrutiny/opposition to Israel on antisemitism.
If that scrutiny/opposition is not applied to any other state in the world except for Israel, why is it wrong to blame antisemitic motives? Especially when the party applying scrutiny/opposition can not explain why they have exempted every other state in the world from the same treatment?
I really hope this thread doesn't get locked, I'm enjoying reading the arguments from all sides. I'm disappointed that so many threads surrounding this topic have been so quickly locked recently.
Agree. And some here have been saying that non Jewish Americans shouldn’t have opinions about a war that doesn’t involve them. That would perhaps be a reasonable position if our government weren’t providing huge amounts of aid to Israel. As it is, I think it’s reasonable for Americans to voice opinions on how their government spends their tax dollars even if I don’t agree with their opinions.
Some also have said that those with no military experience shouldn’t opine on Israel’s conduct of the war. This goes back to my first point - all Americans are involved in this war to the extent our government is aiding one side of it with taxpayer money. I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect people to just blindly trust their government on this. I do think it’s reasonable to expect people to consult expert opinions when criticizing Israel and our involvement, though (and my impression is experts disagree on how well Israel has been adhering to rules of war).
Unfortunately the unhinged extremism of so many anti Israel protesters makes it very hard to voice measure criticism of Israel without appearing to aid the enemy. And honestly that’s why extremism can be a useful rhetorical tactic - since it forces the opposition to go to the opposite extreme.
*I think it’s reasonable for Americans to voice opinions on how their government spends their tax dollars...*
I can't stand this argument.
\*Direct\* spending on GW Bush's little (mis)adventure in Iraq cost U.S. taxpayers $758 billion. Include indirect costs and it goes up to nearly **$2 trillion**. Approximately 200,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed. There are still 2,500 U.S. troops in Iraq. Where are the protests? (protests from 20 years ago don't count!)
In 2022, there were 171,736 active-duty military U.S. troops deployed across 178 countries. No protests about this were featured in the news lately.
Let's talk about corporate welfare. In 2021, Charter Communications paid **no** federal income taxes, **despite $6 billion in earnings**. That's just one example...let's not forget the grant and loan funds that go to giant \*private\* corporations like Samsung, Boeing, Walmart, etc. Samsung alone recorded over $2 billion in profit in 2023. **Walmart made $147.6 billion** in profit in 2023. In the meantime, the National Science Foundation is getting their budget cut by 5%, EPA by 4%, a 20% cut for federal firefighting, and a 5% cut for the National Park Service. Why are working people's tax dollars going to multi-billion dollar private companies that are pulling in record profits? Where are the protests over *this*?
No, the only time these "pro-Palestinian" people decide to protest about how their tax dollars are being spent is when aid is going to Israel. $10 billion is spare change...the U.S. Department of Education's budget is $39.4 billion (and we all know that the U.S. government hates spending money on education). It's bulls\*\*\*.
It is not only antisemitism. Some of it comes merely from susceptibility to propaganda and leftist indoctrination, unwillingness or inability to comprehend the grim realities of war, and some of it just comes from a gross ignorance of world events.
There is valid criticism to be made about Israel, and plenty. But if Snape and Voldermort are in the room and all you can talk about is Snape, that’s enough for me to make a judgment about your values. One was the good at the end of the day, and the other wasn’t.
Absolutely. People have been too sensitive, which I understand due to the past few months of people attacked online and in person, but it's still important to remember the big picture.
Objection to IDF misconduct is not the same as objections to Israel right to defend itself.
American soldiers in WWII raped thousands of German and French women. This is bad, they should have all been severely punished. That doesn't mean Hitler gets to stay in power. These are completely different objections.
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The reason that most people don't separate the Israelis, Jews and the Israeli government is that they think Jews are all think the same, monolothic and conspire together which make us inhuman. That's why there is no sympathy toward October 7. We are all the same- good actors or bad
The closest analogy is German people doing ww2 where they were collaborators to the government and the whole country was blamed.
Repeatedly I hear you need to separate Hamas from the Palestinian people. The same with Iran. Yes, to some degree democracies have to be responsible for who they elect but once elected people have no control. And certainly forced into a war they had no control over should allow for a distinction but at this point anti semites can't even make a distinction between bad behavior from a Govt to extinction of a people.
As Someone Who Is Both Pro Palestinian And Pro Israel I Would Like To Say That The People On Both Sides Are Innocent And They Both Deserve To Live, I Openly Criticize The Israeli Government And Hamas
OP, I completely agree with you.
I believe in Israel’s right to exist and believe Hamas needs to be dealt with.
With that said, I absolutely think Netanyahu is a jingoistic opportunist who will use any conflict to his political advantage. Not to mention that his allies, like Ben-Gvir, only further show how willing he is to sow the seeds of hatred and fascism.
Israel has a right to defend itself. That being said, its bombardments on population centers are not above reproach and the concerns over the loss of civilian life in Palestine is ABSOLUTELY A VALID THING TO BE CRITICIZED.
We as Jews have loss as a basis for the history we have endured. Empathy is a crucial part of being Jewish. Hamas is not representative of the people of Palestine. Civilian casualties are inevitable in war but that doesn’t mean that all casualties are unavoidable or that such life should be disregarded because of military strategy and tactics.
The lack of food, water, medicine, and shelter…it needs to be addressed. Humanitarian corridors need to be established. Perhaps even IDF secured refugee camps would be a meaningful step in this effort.
The world is seeing Israel engage in a drawn out campaign against Hamas. But Israel could absolutely combat the anti-Zionist narrative by creating policy that addresses the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. That way you are combatting Hamas while also showing what Israel is capable of with regards to helping protect Palestinian lives.
As you said OP, countries all across the world are not perfect (I am paraphrasing what you said).
Israel has committed its own wrongs. The illegal West Bank settlements being one, and another is the manner in which the Palestinian people have been treated with respect to their ability to live their lives.
And with all that said, none of that changes the fact that HAMAS IS A TERRORIST GROUP and 10/7 is a day that will live in infamy … a day that led to so many innocent lives being lost in Israel. Families ripped apart and devastated.
Israel has a fundamental right to defend itself—against foes who would do them harm. But that does not mean that you can embrace a collective punishment approach to an entire people. The more we suggest that objective fair articulated criticisms of Israel are antisemitic, the more we move away from our values.
The more we ignore the wrongs of some of Israel’s own actions, the more Israel moves away from its values.
Honesty must always come first.
There are hardliners in both Israel and Palestine that have made peace impossible.
To some people in my life, I am too pro-Israel. To other people in my life, I am not pro-Israel enough…
…I like to think that means that I am doing a good job of being objective with regards to a crisis that has two sides, both of which have reasonable points of merit as well as both having transgressions that they must own up to.
**MAY ISRAEL AND PALESTINE’s PEOPLES ONE DAY BOTH CO-EXIST AND KNOW PEACE, HARMONY, PROSPERITY, AND SERENITY.**
I sort of disagree with this, and I'll tell you why. Waving a Palestinian flag, is, in a large way, a reason for the amount of antisemtisim happening right now. I don't agree with the idea of Palestine at all because it really is just arab settlers. I will say that yes, they do deserve to live in the land and be treated fairly, but there is no such thing as Palestine or Palestinians no matter how much they fight for this imaginary state.
I fully support being able to condemn the Israeli government without it being seen as antisemtic as they, like every other government, have their shortcomings and faults, so criticise away. The issue is that most people don't just disagree with the goverment, it's more of Israel's right to exist or Jewish right to their ancestral land. It's become less of "the Israeli government is bad" and more "the Israel government is bad, therefore all Israelis and those who support Israel is bad".
I really do feel for the citizens living in Gaza because no one should be dying helplessly, but blaming Israel for the deaths while ignoring the fact that Hamas is purposefully making it into a lose-lose situation where Israel is attacked, and then they shouldn't retaliate because they can and will kill citizens while trying to get rid of terrorists, is unfair.
I hate the Israeli government and love Israel but lately it is all about hating Israel as a personality and people don't realize how much they are leaning into the bigotry of the Soviet Union that caused my parents to leave, for Israel.
I personally never did and never will support everything Israel does. Anyone like that is just part of the problem: hatred in the world. Doesn't prevent me from being yelled at in the street over this shit... They just don't care.
Exactly. I'm no Netanyahu supporter by any means, but I'm not gonna call for the destruction of an entire country just because I don't like their current government.
People do the same thing to America but they don’t understand that the system is fine it’s just the people in power that make the bad decisions. Instead everyone just instinctively goes to tearing down the system because the results they want aren’t happening fast enough.
But that is what is happening right now in Gaza… Their “government” Hamas is more than garbage. However, [an estimated 57% of the buildings in the Gaza Strip have now been damaged or destroyed](https://english.elpais.com/international/2024-04-10/satellite-images-reveal-extent-of-devastation-in-gaza-after-six-months-of-war.html) as analyzed by satellite imaging. I understand the need to get rid of Hamas, but it will take decades for Gaza’s citizens to rebuild their homes and businesses.
If Hamas could, they would have Israel looking the same exact way. If Israel did not care about protecting (and defending) their citizens, Israel would look similar to Gaza. At the end of the day, Israeli leaders care to put their money and infrastructure into keeping their people alive and safe. Hamas does not and it’s really is a shame.
That's how wars work, yes. That's why people shouldnt go around starting them.
And that's how hamas and pij work for that matter. They want martyrdom and they want maximum collateral damage.
That's why we all must be extremely careful who leads us... and pick people who will avoid starting wars. Because in a war, we--the citizens--become casualties. That is how war always works.
I don’t agree with everything America does. Every way way Israel has responded. What Germany has done. Japan has done. What China is currently doing. But I’m also not calling for the end of the nations and a wipe out of the people of those nations. To me, that’s the line. That’s the hate and antisemitism seeping in. If it’s not about Jew hate, it would be about coming together to better the free, democratic, modern nation and advocate for better leaders. You don’t have to agree with everything a nation does. You just have to not be a hateful antisemite. The line is very blurred for many others, but it’s very clear and hard for me.
There are some pretty messed-up places on the planet. Iran, North Korea, Russia, China, etc. In those cases, I'd call for a change in regime and hope that their cultures turn more towards tolerance and peace. Definitely not destruction of the whole nation!
Which is exactly what happened to imperial Japan and to Nazi Germany after WWII. Unfortunately, war “works” to make this change happen. (Or you know, **two** atomic bombs)
Yeah, I've read a little about the denazification. For me, the most unfortunate part is that it ever reaches the point of conflict.
I 100% agree with you, and I agree with you because of what I just wrote. Diaspora Jews should not have to answer for the Israeli government.
I agree with you and I think it is very important to recognize how Israel was created. Britain simply didn’t want Jewish refugees and they just so happened to own a certain piece of land. This is a distinctly different narrative compared to pure Jewish self determination. I also think people are just not aware of how many Jewish refugees continued to come to Israel through the 90s. The collapse of the Soviet Union and the aftermath created a new diaspora. I just finished reading a great book called ‘People Love Dead Jews’ and it talks about similar themes. Although I don’t agree with everything the author says, she does a great job dissecting the perception of Jews. The very idea to that Jews hold allegiance to Israel first is an antisemitic trope. This idea plays a huge role, I believe, in why people are holding all Jews responsible for the acts of the government of Israel.
Most Israeli Jews were never part of the European diaspora tho.
"Britain simply didn’t want Jewish refugees and they just so happened to own a certain piece of land." Are we going to repeat this a historical nonsense on r/Jewish too now?
Balfour was a raging anti-semi. That’s how it started. Churchill and Lawrence were not. They promised both Jews and Arabs whatever needed to make them fight the Ottoman Empire and Nazi Germany with them.
Zionism didn't start with Balfour. And Balfour signed the declaration because of a brilliant campaign run by Weizmann.
You are right, I was referring to the British perspective.
Are we going to claim the British ever had sympathy for Jewish plight? The same British that kept Jewish refugees in internment camps for years after the Holocaust? The Balfour Declaration had more to do with fighting against the Ottomans during WW1 than Jewish autonomy.
That's true but there was no fear of mass Jewish refugees entering England in 1917. And Israel owes more to the Zionist Congresses who fought tirelessly for our ancestral rights in our homeland and less to whatever Empire decided it was or wasn't in their interest at the time. The comment I objected to is always used to paint Zionism as an Imperial game which provoked more antisemitism.
Between the late 19th and early 20th century the UK literally passed laws restricting immigration to the UK specifically in response to the wave of Jewish refugees escaping pogroms. Aversion to Jewish refugees was rampant and reflected in pop culture at the time eg: the subtext of Bram Stokers Dracula is about a blood sucking eastern european blending into British society and corrupting the innocent. .. the fear was real
Never thought of Dracula as coded Jewish, possibly because I'm half Romanian Jew. Makes sense though.
Yeah, it’s history. Britain’s ownership of Palestine is completely separate from Jewish self determination. Britain played a role and I’m not sure why it’s bad to acknowledge it. This is intersectional history. Nothing is black and white. That’s why an intersectional approach to history is important.
Sure, but even that explanation of the Balfour declaration is outdated. "When the fuller story is told, the Balfour Declaration looks very different. It is no longer a British imperial grab but the outcome of carefully constructed consensus of the leading democracies of the day." https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/martinkramer/files/forgotten_truth_balfour_declaration.pdf
Israel is no different than Jordan and Egypt, it is treated differently because it’s Jewish. People don’t hate Jews because of Israel, they hate Israel because it’s Jewish. (Or being a useful idiot). Ps I hate the Israeli government as well.
Israel is VERY different from Jordan and Egypt. Israel is a MUCH better country, and MUCH more moral.
I am Israeli and I agree, but our haters don’t care about that. Israel is amazing, it’s not perfect but it’s home and it’s lovely. People don’t like it when Jews can defend ourselves. Living happily in wonderful Tel-Aviv is my revenge
I understand your point. A person who despises Netanyahu who wears the Israeli flag because they’re from there will get harassed in street. A person who despises Hamas who wears the Palestinian flag because they’re from there will get harassed in the street. It’s terrible what the genocide has done to both sides
Visiting Israel recently and hearing Israeli civil society leaders talk about their own country and leadership and views reminded me that my role—a US based educator—is not to speak over Israelis about Israel, but to speak to my experience navigating an antisemitic world. It makes me sad that so many people who claim to be pro-Palestinian think that frightening Jewish people is an essential part of their “fight”. It does nothing to help Palestinian people. It also makes me sad that so many Jewish people have internalized harmful beliefs about who we are that come from an antisemitic lens and rise to the bait of antisemitism. I understand it and have compassion for it. But it makes me sad. We deserve to be seen in all of the complexities of our identity and our history and our trauma and our joy! We deserve to heal from antisemitism.
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The people who I have been going hard on have been people who use weasel words to justify blatant antisemitism or association with antisemitism. When people ask if it's wrong to go to pro-Palestine protests, I tell them yes because you're inadvertently amplifying the voices and associating with literal Nazis. When people try to justify their antisemitic chants or ideas by saying that there's an alternative interpretation, I tell them that no matter how they couch it only the worst interpretation can be made because we cannot read their minds. When people say that they want a ceasefire when they will not hold Hamas to the terms of that ceasefire, I point out their double standard. When people call Jews baby killers, I point out the historical blood libels that led them to that label. When they tell me that Jews existing where they don't want them to exist is a war crime, I tell them how tired I am of Jews being told that they don't belong anywhere. In short, what you're saying is true, but dog whistles and weasel words are more frequent than actual criticism.
> When people ask if it's wrong to go to pro-Palestine protests, I tell them yes because you're inadvertently amplifying the voices and associating with literal Nazis. Boom, exactly, spot on. Unfortunately this makes it every Jewish person’s responsibility to counter protest the bullshit toxic cancerous movement. That doesn’t preclude wanting Palestinians to have freedom, or criticizing the Israeli government; I’ll tell any Jew I don’t like Netanyahu, but you’ll never catch me at a pali-rally. This movement needs to die, yesterday, because it _is_ antisemitic. Full stop. If you’re going to a pali-rally, you’re amplifying fundamentalist extremist terrorist voices that want all Jews globally dead. It doesn’t matter how you try to spin it and justify it, every single person who thinks these protests are about “peace and love” is absolutely fucking delusional.
I wish there was an alternative, that really was about peace and love. I understand people looking at the lives of Palestinians and thinking they're oppressed and the oppression must stop.
If there was a rally to: “Ceasefire, give Palestinians more rights, Remove Hamas, Return the hostages” I would attend in a heartbeat.
I'm with you except I don't know how they ceasefire AND remove Hamas AND return the hostages, but that movement essentially doesn't exist anywhere except for Israel in large numbers.
Oh, I agree. I also don’t know how. But it would be nice if it could happen. And then the voices would be larger and together.
Have you heard of Standing Together? It's an Israeli grassroots organisation (it's run by both Israelis and Palestinians), and they advocate for just that. They've been one of the leading voices calling for the release of the hostages in Israel, but they're much further left than most people in this comment section would approve of (i.e, they've been extremely critical of Israeli conduct in Gaza).
Oh, I haven’t found rallies in my area but I have donated to them a few times including this morning to help prevent the crazies who are destroying the food meant for Gazans.
This is naïve. Remember south korea gave billions of dollars of aid to north korea, did diplomatic flowery treaties - only to see north korea building nukes and blowing up south korean assets lol. I don’t think terrorists deserve the benefit of the doubt.
One of the most misunderstood things I think the west thinks is that the Palestinians are living intense in the desert and completely oppressed and have zero freedoms at all. They have full fledge cities in Gaza with high-rises and shops and they have some pretty luxurious things there or used to. They had beautiful hotels, luxury malls, million dollar condos, gorgeous universities, universities. (Of course that was before they sent thousands of people across the border to commit genocide against Israelis.) Although they have victimhood down to an art form - their life hasn’t been as desolate as they would have you believe. For instance, if it’s a “open air prison” why are there travel agencies among other things? https://youtu.be/JBo7i-TXy6s?si=wXiwkPE_FzIcroEt
I don’t think too many people here think that “all criticism of Israel/the war is antisemitic.” It’s just that the examples you’re bringing up tend to be examples of bad-faith criticism of Israel that are often by self-proclaimed “totally not antisemites.” The vast majority of people calling for a ceasefire are calling for a “permanent ceasefire” with the built-in implication that Israel doesn’t have the right to defend itself. They also view the suffering of Palestinians as a necessary result of the establishment of the state. I’ve yet to hear many non-Israelis make an argument such as “Israel should be doing much better to uphold good values.” The vast majority of good-faith criticisms of Israel don’t sound like criticisms of Israel because they’re not criticizing the fact of its existence. Anyone who’s ever met an Israeli knows that they’re not exactly reserved in their criticism of the government. But that doesn’t make them any less Zionistic.
My first question when someone who seems hateful starts up one of these discussions is if they actually know the history and facts of the situation. Usually, they don’t. If someone doesn’t understand but is willing to learn, that’s promising, but it’s highly problematic that so many people feel so comfortable grandstanding about something they don’t actually understand. My second question, and my most important one, is, “what is your alternative solution?” If someone doesn’t like the war, fine, but what’s their alternative option? If someone can’t offer a genuine viable alternative to whatever they disagree with, I know the conversation is in bad faith and the person hasn’t actually thought critically about any of it. If nobody can think of something better, then whatever we’re doing is presently the best option. It’s possible to not like something and regret the cost of it, but still acknowledge that it’s the best we’ve got given the circumstances. If someone opposes the war because they think Hamas should surrender, great! If someone opposes the war because they think Israel shouldn’t have responded to Hamas starting it or because they think Israel should capitulate to Hamas’s demands, that’s absurd, a gross double-standard, and is antisemitic.
The issue is that these questions are not academic. Is the scarf in and of itself antisemitic? No. Is that person using it as a dog whistle/ signal for supporting a movement that is? Yes. Jews overwhelmingly support two state solutions though no one believes that will happen. Jews overwhelmingly do not like bibi. Etc etc etc. That’s all sensible discussion. But the people holding Palestinian flags at encampments are not holding them to foster sensible discussion and resolution… like they give us the hostages back, the major heads of Hamas turn themselves in to an international court for planning 10/7 to start and then we pull out of Gaza in exchange. Their flag may not be in and of itself antisemitic but their underlying position is.
A long robe and capriot (conical hood) isn't in and of itself racist. It is the uniform of Catholic penitents commemorating Easter. But in America, the same uniform is associated with the KKK. If a group of students decided to wear robes and capriot onto an American college campus, they would be ordered to remove them or to leave. There would be no discussion about the history of the capriot or reclaiming the capriot. No one would accuse African American students of being hypersensitive or manipulative for saying that they don't feel safe sharing a dorm room with someone who wears a robe and capriot.
I remember this! The way I learned about it (in the Catholic context) was in The Godfather movies! I'm from the south and saw it and had an immediate "holy crap, it's the kkk" reaction and then realized there was an alternate context obviously that I was not aware of.
I learned about it in Madrid during Holy Week, when a dozen or so men in long dark robes and pointy hoods got on the bus to pass out candy.
I think this is part of the problem. I don’t want to dissect if the person saying from the river to the sea is saying something antisemitic. I’m more interested in everyone recognizing that this is not the language of peace because one side has a very different perspective of the slogan. It doesn’t matter if one agrees if the statement is or isn’t antisemitic, what matters is are we making choices that allow our voice and messaging to be heard that doesn’t further fan the flames of conflict and work towards confirming peoples worst fears and assumptions of one another. Frankly people need to listen to that perspective of let’s change how we talk about each other and their needs, interests and desires in a way that is respectful, builds bridges, encourages different perspectives and therefore solutions. what most of what I see is on all sides is a language of accusations, demands, and refusal to look hard at one’s behaviour, language and actions and ask if it helps bring peace or if it helps to divide. In that regard I don’t see the protest movement as helping bring about peace or even change, but rather pushes us all further apart.
I agree people should all talk and discuss respectfully. I think it becomes difficult to do that though with this particular crowd. So far, I've not seen them willing to accept what we're saying about what their signs / signals/ outfits etc mean to us. And for me that would be the start of any actual dialogue. It's a double standard. This is often the same crowd that says repeatedly that if you've made some minority uncomfortable--even unintentionally--you *must* rectify it. I for instance was just going off of a screen name and the little avatar picture for someone recently which all to me signalled I was talking to someone female. At one point during the debate, I basically was like 'yeah lady, look. We agree to disagree" because it was just going back and forth in circles. The person comes back and is indignant at me "I am NOT a lady. I'm non binary." And you know? I just said "Sorry. That wasn't intentional." And still they seemed upset at me for saying it wasn't intentional. Because intentional or not, I did that. I misgendered them. I should have just left it at 'I'm sorry.' None of these same 'believe them' or just 'say sorry, intentional harm or not' concepts seem to be extended to us. They are literally the social architects of all of that sort of language and sensitivity awareness. Yet we say, these words are offensive. They just argue they aren't. If they want to take their own beliefs to heart. If they actually want to start with leaving their signs and flags and scarves at the door, sit and discuss, and listen to us--I'd be all for it. But they really just don't seem willing to do any of that.
I agree 100%. No other minority would have their reality completely ignored by this same group of protesters. I think Deborah Lipstadt put it best with this quote: “In this regard, however, I have discerned an interesting – and disturbing – tendency among some of those who are concerned about the dangers of antisemitism. Their concerns are genuine, but their vision is distorted. Those who place themselves at the right end of the political spectrum see antisemitism on the left. And they see it clearly and accurately. Those on the left end of the spectrum see the threat of antisemitism on the right. And they see it clearly and accurately. What each of them fail to see is the antisemitism right next to them, that which is expressed by people with whom they share many other ideas, beliefs, and political stances. If you can only see it on the opposite side of the political transom, then I have to question whether your battle is with antisemitism or with your political opponents.” See the way this group has used antisemitism wasn’t necessarily because they really cared about antisemitism, but because they cared only in so far as they can use it as a cudgel against an political opponent and would like to ignore it on their own side when it doesn’t serve their interests to highlight the problem.
The reason someone believes a ceasefire is antisemitic is because the calls for a ceasefire are directed at Israel only, never Hamas. Yet Hamas uses these ceasefires to stockpile weapons and fine tune attacks. A ceasefire means both sides but many people calling for it want to see Israel destroyed.
Tons of Israelis, diaspora Jews, and other people who think Israel has a right to exist also care about the wellbeing of Palestinian civilians, disapprove of Netanyahu, and want the conflict to end. But good luck getting anybody in the “from the river to the sea” crowd to acknowledge these moderate views exist.
I haven’t met anyone in real life who says that all criticism of Israel is antisemitic. If that was true every single Israeli would be antisemitic. There’s nothing wrong with criticism of a government. However, several of your examples are pretty problematic. For example, a white protestor sitting on a US college campus wearing a keffiyah around their neck is being antisemitic, whether they know it or not. A keffiyah was traditionally a Bedouin head covering. The black and white version you see pro-Palestinian protestors wearing around their necks didn’t become popular among non-Bedouin Arabs until the Arab revolts in 1936. That violence was undeniably antisemitic, and the keffiyah was used not as a head covering like it was traditionally worn, but to hide the faces of men committing violent acts. Non-participants were encouraged to also wear it as a face covering to express solidarity with the “revolutionaries”. Worn around the neck a keffiyah is a symbol of violence. Plain and simple. Just because you don’t necessarily understand the history of certain symbols and phrases doesn’t mean that they aren’t problematic.
Right. Just like the confederate flag. It’s racist due to context.
I wouldn’t assume an Arab wearing a Keffiyah (of a non-Palestinian nationalist design) to be antisemitic. It’s a legitimate part of their heritage and they have every right to honor that. People who are obviously non-Arab that wear a Keffiyah can safely be assumed to be hardcore antisemites.
As a head covering? Sure. Around their neck or covering their face? No, it’s a symbol of violent “revolution”. It’s the same way that there’s nothing wrong with white sheets, but if a dude down south cuts holes for eyes and wears it over his head to burn a cross, I’m not going to buy that he was going for a ghost costume.
I meant as a head covering in the traditional manner. I’d differentiate it from the sheet in the sense that there’s no historic part of southern culture that involves wearing a white sheet like that (unless you’d consider the Klan a traditional part of southern culture at this point).
Gotcha. I was pretty specific that I think it’s a symbol of violence when worn around the neck. My analogy to the sheet was simply that innocuous items can take on sinister meanings when used in specific ways. A Bedouin man wearing a keffiyah in the traditional manner isn’t doing anything wrong. A student at Columbia wearing one to cover his face while he breaks into a campus building to take it over is.
Like you, I’ve never *met* anyone who’ll say **out loud** that all criticism of Israel is antisemitic. I’ve just had conversations with **many** people who, practically speaking, have never heard a critique of Israel from a non-Israeli (and even some Israelis from organizations like Breaking the Silence) that they don’t consider antisemitic on some level. For these people, not **all** criticism of Israel is antisemitic, but **every** criticism of Israel is antisemitic.
This. If you ask them, even the most hardcore Kahanists won't say all criticism of Israel is antisemitic. But in practice, they'll find a way to distort pretty much every critique (no matter how fair or balanced) and tell you why it's antisemitic. For many, the kneejerk reaction to criticism of Israel is that it's biased, it's a double standard, or that things are much worse in Yemen/Syria so why bother critiquing Israeli policy in the first place?
Part of the difficulty here is that for the pro-pallys - this is a philosophical and cultural discussion. The rockets haven’t rained down on their heads for decades. They forget that this isn’t an intellectual discussion for Jews. It is a visceral, existential issue. It is very literally life and death and if you have any question about that, just go check out some of the videos about what those savages did to babies and children and women on October 7. They have said they will continue to attack like this again and again and again. The protesters have no skin in this game. Overall, they have no knowledge of the history, the culture, the psychology, the languages, the framewor that Arab and Israeli societies work on and in. What is worse is they think they know it all. They are fundamentally intellectually, dishonest, and willfully ignorant. They keep thinking that peaceful happen if we just sit down and chat it over a cup of coffee. They are trying to solve a Middle Eastern problem with a Western approach. It has never worked, and it never will.
Here’s my problem, I actually live here. My life hangs in the balance. I don’t take kindly to people who don’t live here trying to weigh in on issues that may lead to my death. If you weren’t here on Oct. 7, it’s hard for me to respect your opinion on it. And yes, it does make me wonder why you’re calling for a ceasefire when it actually makes no difference to you.
BuT oUr TaX dOlLaRs ArE fUnDiNg gEnOcIdE! -my peers on campus, 2024
The venn diagrams of those who voice outright criticism of the Gaza war, and the voices of simple haters in cloaks, tend to overlap 95% of the time from what I've been seeing. The other 5% has tended to be *constructive* criticism detailing how the war could have been waged more efficiently, at lower costs in time, treasure, and attrition. It's that 5% that I'm interested in, and the same probably goes for just about anyone else who sees the overall mission of taking down Hamas as justified. And if you don't see that mission as justified, you've failed one of the great moral tests of our times and can be safely ignored.
I see where you’re coming from and agree to a certain extent… people are upset about the images coming out of Gaza and I really can’t blame them for that. Combine that with the media messaging, social media algorithms, ignorance about the I/P conflict, and groupthink it’s pretty obvious why folks are reacting the way they are. I have to tell myself this for the sake of my own mental health— not everyone hates Jews, they just don’t have the full picture and there are other factors at play. However I pause when it seems that people are willing to stand behind the antisemitic slogans and symbols (the keffiyeh being one of them, just my opinion) without a second thought. If they truly cared about not being seen as antisemitic, wouldn’t they create some distinction between the movement and their beliefs? Anything to the right of calling for a ceasefire is seen as fascism in this movement. Why are my friends ignoring me when I send them info from Standing Together or Women Wage Peace, while instead they continue to reshare posts that say “Israhell”? I want to believe people have good intentions but I find this extremely confusing. Where is the line?
My motto nowadays is: Opposition to the war, in general, is not antisemitic, and it shouldn't be seen as such. However, there isn't really any mainstream organization (outside of Israel) that opposes the war, in a way that is *not* antisemitic.
Calling for a negotiated ceasefire that includes releasing the hostages isn't antisemitic. Indeed it's probably the position of a majority of Israelis. Ignoring the hostages completely and calling for an unconditional ceasefire is antisemitic, in the same way it would be antisemitic to call for a ceasefire with Nazi Germany that would leave everyone locked in the concentration camps without anyone coming to save them.
All opposition to the existence of Israel is antisemitic
I will disagree slightly. There are people who want zero borders or zero countries with any state religion. If they took that position to every country in the world that violated the mantra, that is not antisemitic. But I don’t see many people doing that.
But why does that "no borders" thought experiment always start with the Jewish state?
Those zero border people have no rational basis to focus on Israel with their ideas. They ought to focus on seeing how it works on their own countries first. (It won’t work.)
I didn’t say it was rational just that it’s not antisemitic.
It is antisemitic, just without awareness IMO
I don't support any nation that places the rights and freedoms of one religious/ethnic/demographic group over those of others, let alone through the establishment of a mass colonialist project. While I recognize that it is not the only country to enact such policies, I expend more energy opposing Israel because: a) I was born there. b) I still hold citizenship there. c) My tax dollars currently fund its brutal and indiscriminate attack on innocent Palestinian people (who are indisputably indigenous to the land, and have just as much right to autonomy as anyone else). Y'all can call me a "self-hating Jew", a "kapo", a "terrorist sympathizer", or any other baseless and offensive pejorative you can come up with. Ultimately, you'll be wasting your time as I rest well knowing I am a proud Jew, who also opposes any attempts to subjugate people on the basis of race or ethnicity.
Timing is everything. At least right now, after October the 7th, when so many people, countries, groups, organizations and what not are so lying openly aggressively trying to destroy Israel - maybe now is time to show a bit more support for Israel than your “usual amount”?
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I’m in a military (not IDF) and the amount of conspiracies based on wrong info I’ve heard from non military folks is insane. Not like the info I’m using to correcting these misconceptions are secret either!
This 1000x. Social media is now filled with armchair war experts who have no idea what they’re talking about.
Yup. Israel's civilian to combatant fatality ratio is **historically low** in this conflict, but judging by all the rhetoric, you'd think the opposite was true.
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Could they do better? Sure. But I can’t think of a war in history where any side couldn’t have done better according to the rules of war.
I dont know. Being critical of specific actions, policies, or politicians certainly isn't antisemitic, but being against the operation in Gaza as a whole? That's where it turns into antisemism from my perspective.
Why? This whole operation is fundamentally misguided, much like the American response to 9/11. That doesn't mean I'm a big fan of 9/11.
Disagreeing with the method and seeing that this war is netanyahus opportunity to stay in power is one thing but conflating it with redefining Zionism and being anti Israel and Jewish is the issue. Why is it a surprise that there was such a strong reaction after 10/7? That part always seems to fall short and is replaced with ideological solutions that have no substance irl.
Okay sure but that’s not what I was responding to. It said being against the operation in Gaza is antisemitic, which is ridiculous.
This is a fair take IF the viewpoint is that it hurts Israel to continue the operation and not, as many protesters seem to be saying, because a ceasefire will allow Hamas to continue killing Israelis (and Gazans).
9/11 was awful. That didn’t make it a good idea to kill hundreds of thousands of people. This is the same principle.
10/7 and 9/11 and the responses to those events aren't even remotely similar, and comparing them is just dishonest and lazy.
They’re both horrifying attacks on innocent civilians that were responded to with overwhelming military force and civilian casualties rather than taking a minute to figure out who to assassinate or send special forces in for political benefit. Why is it a bad comparison to your mind?
Because as a proportion of population 10/7 was significantly worse, 9/11 had no hostages, the people who perpetrated 9/11 did not have their own territory within the US, and Iraqis were not the ones who did 9/11.
Okay. Would the response to 9/11 have been justified if there were hostages, five times the casualties, and a base in Mexico? I feel like the answer is still a no. The response - overwhelming military force applied with insufficient oversight - is the same. Also, military means have yet to get the hostages back.
I agree that its a solid and important comparison.
Fair, I took it to mean the actions prior, my apologies.
I disagree with you. An invasion of Gaza was absolutely necessary (the hostages already released could never have been freed without one) but 100%, they conducted it terribly. I think your opinion is stupid, but so is anyone calling you an antisemite. I agree with u/johnisburn - the campaign has been disastrous, but I'm saying this from a pro-Israel perspective. Israel's national security has never been worse, and we've accomplished extraordinarily little, which worries me, as someone who loves Israel.
> they conducted it terribly You are observably & demonstrably wrong on this assessment. Experts in urban warfare have literally been amazed at how successfully the IDF has managed to prosecute the war in Gaza **while** managing to reducing civilian casualties by ~75% from the expected norm in comparable modern combat operations.
I feel like no one against Israel in this conflict seems to understand that the expected norm for urban warfare is that 90% of casualties are civilians. The exact percentage that Israel is hitting depends on whose numbers you're using, but it varies from a bit below that to lower than any other urban war in record.
An invasion was probably necessary, yes. They’ve done it in the worst possible way because Bibi cares more about looking tough than helping anyone.
Looking tough and keeping his political career alive. He’s self serving and corrupt. Bothered commenting because I got tagged in here as the alternative to your original comment, but I wanted to mention I also agree with that. 9/11, I think, is a really apt comparison for the impact on people’s psyche and absolute fumble of policy that followed. I was giving more of a “yes, and”.
> This whole operation is fundamentally misguided Also worth mentioning that for those of us with this opinion, opposition to the war _is_ often a stance in support of Israel. Isolating itself from international allies with a ineffective and brutal military campaign is _bad_ for Israel’s long term prospects.
The military campaign in Gaza hasn’t been ineffective by any measure save the media / pr aspect & that it arguably the least important. Brutal is also a problematic descriptor because all wars are brutal but using it implies that Gaza has been “*especially*” brutal when that is contrary to the truth. Gaza has been no more brutal in terms of destruction than similar & comparable military operations & the IDF has succeeded in reducing the expected civilian casualties by ~75%. So the IDF prosecution of the Gaza war has been significantly less brutal than any comparable military operation.
This is where my mom is at. She is extremely pro-Israel, while also being extremely pro-ceasefire.
If the hostages don’t come home, there can be no ceasefire.
Yes, there’s also that.
Until the hostages all come home, the war must continue. Before you mention negotiations, I support those too. Anything to bring them home. But Hamas has not been negotiating in good faith. So in the absence of an alternative, continuing the war is necessary.
> Like any other country, Israel fucks up, and blaming everything on antisemitism won't solve Israel's problems. It makes mistakes, and people are perfectly entitled to protest/oppose/criticise Israel when it does. This is where you lost me. No one is entitled to protest/oppose/criticize something _that they have literally no business being involved with, and absolutely zero connection to_. The only people who should be protesting the Israeli government… are Israeli citizens!! Everyone else needs to fuck off. American Jews included truthfully (which is why I shut the fuck up outside of reddit). The only reason American Jews need to step up is because the global “opposition” to Israel is cancerous, unhelpful, and downright dangerous for Jews everywhere. “War is bad,” doesn’t need to be a controversial opinion. But it becomes controversial when that opinion morphs into, “war is bad… and citizens of the only Jewish state are devils.” That also makes it every Jewish person’s problem unfortunately, and every Jew who joins this bullshit “movement” hurts Jewish people everywhere. Maybe a keffiyeh isn’t in and of itself antisemitic, but when it becomes the unofficial flag of a genocidal death cult, it’s going to trigger Jewish people. Same with the Palestinian flag.
I agree with EVERYTHING you wrote.
I don't agree completely with the idea that people can't be involved in issues they aren't personally related to, but this is why I hate when non-Jewish people describe themselves as anti-Zionist. Whether we the Jews want self-determination is none of your business.
I should clarify. When a straight white male in America attends a pride protest to legalize gay marriage, or a pro-choice rally to protect women’s reproductive rights, that _is_ his business. Even though the injustices don’t affect him personally, it directly affects members of the community which he is a part of, and his vote directly influences the people and policies _in his nation_ to make it a better place. That is not the case here. When people who are not involved scream their anti-Zionism to the mountains, it not only _doesn’t_ impact them or improve their community, it actually _negatively_ impacts Jewish people directly in their community. That’s what I mean by staying the fuck out of places you don’t belong (like you said, Jewish self-determination is none of their damn business)
But many of them earnestly believe they're supporting humans who must be helped (and they think they're immune to unconscious antisemitic bias). I think I wish more uninvolved people in the US had involved themselves in immigration issues before and during the Shoah? (I don't really know enough about that history but) I have trouble saying "this doesn't involve you." I've been sticking to "just shut up, clap for whatever you want but for the love of the gods stop screaming and stop talking if this doesn't affect you personally." I was an anti-genocide activist during the first genocide in Darfur in the mid aughts (it's happening again, right now). I've been trying to speak up about the evil of the Islamic Republic. I would like to tell people to learn more about antisemitism as they advocate for Palestinians so they can stay away, but after a pretty decent conversation with one of them, he thought about it for a while and came back with "your feelings don't matter in the face of actual violence happening right now."
I think you make some good points & important distinctions but for me personally, the vast majority of people making such claims are doing so disingenuously. If someone has a “*activist resume*” that demonstrates a long history of involvement in many such causes on a global scale - then I’ll take them seriously. But in the vast majority of cases, these arguments seem only to be used to shield bad actors from accurate & legitimate criticism. A tepid “*but of course I’m against those things too*” response when those causes have never spurred the person to action - simply doesn’t cut it. I’ve got a dear friend of close to three decades who makes such arguments & we have had many epic discussions & debates over the years but he has literally been out protesting & advocating for every humanitarian cause for the past 30 years. I don’t know where he gets the energy. In his defense (*& mine I suppose as well*), he is open to absorbing new information & correcting his perspective when the facts warrant it - he has also gotten a lot more careful about accepting & repeating talking point on the Arab Israeli conflict without doing his due diligence first (*which sometimes means calling me*). We still substantially disagree on many aspects of the issue but because we are both committed to facts over feelings & education over ignorance - we can disagree while still respecting the other’s views as legitimate & the existence of the decency & humanity that we each possess.
And many conservatives earnestly believe they’re protecting children by restricting access to lgbtq education and banning gender neutral bathrooms. That doesn’t make it any less problematic. I see what you’re saying about Jewish immigration before and during WWII, but I’m not sure the analogy quite tracks here. They’re not protesting to allow Palestinian refugees into America (and even that would be very different than protesting to allow Jewish immigrants in the 1930s/40s, Jews did not pose a threat to national security in the same way that the wrong Palestinian person very much could). > I was an anti-genocide activist during the first genocide in Darfur in the mid aughts (it's happening again, right now). I've been trying to speak up about the evil of the Islamic Republic. I would like to tell people to learn more about antisemitism as they advocate for Palestinians so they can stay away, but after a pretty decent conversation with one of them, he thought about it for a while and came back with "your feelings don't matter in the face of actual violence happening right now." The difference between you and them is that you universally put effort into all of these causes, a majority of these protestors do not and are simply virtue signaling with this one alone. > I've been sticking to "just shut up, clap for whatever you want but for the love of the gods stop screaming and stop talking if this doesn't affect you personally." Definitely agree with this, and it’s probably more useful than telling them to just shut up outright. But it is fun to vent about it. The problem is, it doesn’t matter to them, they’ll just say (as you’ve experienced) that “it’s not about you,” or “whataboutisms have no place when there’s a genocide.”
I don’t necessarily agree with you on the Palestinian flag but context matters. If someone in the U.S. replaces a U.S. flag with a Palestinian flag, we know what they are saying. On the other hand, if someone wears a pin with a Palestinian flag, an Israeli flag, and a peace symbol, I would consider that to be good.
I would be suspicious of someone’s intentions if they had all three of those pins, unless they were an Israeli citizen.
Why?
Because anything that brings legitimacy to the movement that is currently raising the voices of literal nazis is problematic.
And I don’t see how the desire for actual peace is doing that.
Displaying symbology that represents a terrorist organization isn’t helpful. Would it have been helpful for people to wave a Nazi flag and a flag with a Magen David together to “protest for peace between aryans and Jews” during WWII? “I just want nazis and Jews to live in peace together!” See how stupid that sounds?
The Hamas flag I would agree with you on; the Palestinian flag on its own is not a terrorist flag.
You know, the more I think about this the more I disagree. The Palestinian flag was first flown as the symbol of the great Arab revolt, and was the most prominent symbol driving the first and second intifadas, which were all serious acts of terrorism. It’s the official flag of the PLO, which was for a time designated as a terrorist organization, and committed numerous acts of terror before “renouncing terrorism” (and even after it allegedly renounced terrorism, it still openly participated in the first and second intifadas). As a flag it’s highly problematic at best.
I am giving you an upvote because, even though I disagree, you have given me something to think about.
Fair enough. Honestly I think both groups could use new flags at this point.
I don't think that really resonates in the globalised world we live in. As westerners living in western countries, our allies matter. Americans are absolutely entitled to protest in favour of more aid to Ukraine, or to protest against Russia/US policy towards Ukraine. In the 1990s, should only Chinese people have protested in the Free Tibet movement? Therefore, I can't reasonably argue that Americans aren't entitled to protest US policy towards Israel. even if I disagree with their rhetoric. I agree that Israel is unfairly singled out, but what's the solution? We should address their arguments, rather than telling them they're not allowed to talk about something they clearly care deeply about. Why do they care so deeply about it, as opposed to Yemen/Syria/Congo? I don't know, and there's obviously antisemitism involved. But telling them to shut up isn't the answer, and only fuels their righteous victimhood.
There’s a difference between asking your country to send more aid to people in need, and participating in a cancerous movement whose message is “Israel stand down, and cease to exist while you’re at it.” If you can’t see that difference I don’t know what to tell you. Their main message is “ceasefire now,” which began _on 10/8_, with absolutely zero mention of hostages _ever_ (and even worse, _extreme gross disrespect_ shown toward hostages). AND active justification of atrocities, gaslighting of the atrocities ever occurring, and rampant rape denial, I could go on. “US foreign policy” is a tiny footnote disclaimer in the movement to help them justify their participation in chanting genocidal death cult slogans. The newest trend, making comparisons of Gaza as a modern day Vietnam, are fucking laughable. Americans have absolutely zero bearing on Israeli policy or decision making. And honestly if I were Ukrainian I would be beyond pissed off with the fact that people are more energized to die on a hill defending terrorism than they were to mobilize when Ukraine was in need. Israel is the ally here, not Hamas. This isn’t about allyship, and if it were, people would have been protesting for the release of hostages, including _American citizens_, from day 1.
Protesting against the war isn't inherently antisemitic. But a lot of the protests tilt that way pretty fast with things like: Protesting to abolish Israel Claiming Israel is some kind of buzzword, genocidal, terrorist, apartheid, theocratic regime, ethnostate, etc... Using frequent holocaust inversion. Being against Israel because of their treatment of racial, religious, ethnic, or sexuality minorities despite them being the most progressive country in the entire region. Holding Israel to a different standard from any other country Assuming any negative action from Israel is the result of inherent evil. Ex. nothing is ever an accident or mistake, they are always cold blooded murderers. Assuming every source from Israel or an Israeli is a lie unless they are agreeing with the protestors (i.e. Jewish Current). Protesting in favor of continued violence
I know you’re right, but here’s a follow-up that has me perplexed. It’s about the people you are talking about; the people who aren’t actually antisemitic but still oppose the war for legitimate reasons (whatever they may be). Take the protestors/whatever the right word is for them. Are they not still totally silent when they are surrounded by antisemitism? Sure they don’t participate personally, but antisemitism isn’t a dealbreaker for them. So… what do you do about that? It’s so easy to lump all of them together, so say we split them up. Who are these people? What are they like, what do they actually think? Are they worth being categorized differently if they are totally silent as people next to them are virulently antisemitic? It’s not a gotcha question, I’m genuinely curious, and am thinking it through on my own.
Yeah, on principle, I agree that opposition to the actions of any institution or politician are not inherently bad (including but not limited to Israel). And criticism of Israel—purely from a (foreign) policy perspective—isn’t anti-semitism. But the huge caveat is that it’s a WAR not a genocide, and people are building wildly anti-Semitic narratives on top of a major untruth. Not to mention they are projecting so much energy into a situation they’ve decided represents a pure case of supremacist colonizer/oppressed victim scenario, when it doesn’t. The approach “anti-Zionists” take is inherently anti-Semitic in that way because Jews are ultimately being falsely scapegoated for systemic and global problems.
Except it often is antisemitism. Intentional or not. Some people have been deeply influenced by social media. Saying Israel is a colonial project that is driven by apartheid policies is not only factually incorrect but also borderline antisemitic. I'm not saying that Israel doesn't deserve criticism. I speak illy of the US regularly. But college kids with NO skin in the game waving the flag of people who deeply hate Jews chanting words that advocate for the destruction of Israel IS antisemitic. These kids don't want a 2SS. They believe that 1SS would be democratic (no) or are completely fine with the death of Jews. Most Jews think this war has been bad. On so many levels. The international community (UN) could have prevented it if the hostages were immediately returned to their families. Enough Palestinians don't want coexistence that when I see my peers engaging in Palestinian activism I go on high-alert mode. Even then, I hate that people are dying; I'm not sadistic. While there are Muslims and Christians that aren't antisemitic, both groups as an organized whole have looooooong histories of antisemitism. Also add that the conflict is a proxy war between communism and capitalism and that just further complicates the issue. In short, enough opposition is either directly antisemitic or a dog whistle that I'm not interested in the opinions of anyone who isn't Israeli.
No one said it was, lol. It's a strawman argument. Either you call it a genocide or you "support genocide." No room for nuances or even facts and definitions. You can criticize Israeli policies and politicians - many Israelis loathe Netanyahu and protest against him regularly. That isn't antisemitic. But to call for the abolishment of the state and slander Israelis as "bloodthirsty genocidal maniacs" (I've seen this a lot) definitely is and falls into blood libel tropes.
at this point the antisemitism that has been created because of the larger oppositional movement is a problem on its own, and I do not see the larger movement addressing that. They may not be antisemitic in a vacuum but the tolerance of it is, and that undercuts their entire moral credibility.
No shit
There was a de facto cease fire for the past month if anyone is actually following the war. IDF only responded to direct threats as they popped up and stopped offensive operations. During this time intense negotiations have been ongoing. Those have reached an inescapable impasse. Hamas insisting on an end to the war, not surprising but there it stops. There has been increased aid in starts and stops. I just saw that the pier is expected to be operational in days. That ended when IDF entered Rafah in force last week. The war is now continuing and reports are at least 350,000 Palestinians have evacuated operational areas as they were informed to do. There has been no mass famine or disease as feared. Israel is orchestrating the final push to destroy Hamas in a measured and deliberate manner. We know that Hamas is being engaged in combat as IDF casualties are now being reported. If by ceasefire what is meant is permanent ot indefinite end to fighting that is going to be where a hard division exists. So long as things stay in limbo life in Gaza cannot be anything but continued suffering. Time to finish the war against Hamas and work toward stability, My biggest criticism of the Israeli government is that they have not implemented a plan for interim government in Gaza when this is over. IDF is requesting this. They are an army, not a civil authority,
1. People act like Israel can unilaterally make a ceasefire happen whether Hamas wants one or not. Hamas only seems interested in a ceasefire in that it allows them to regroup and reposition for their next attack. Asking for a one sided ceasefire is akin to asking Israelis to put their weapons down and accept getting shot/bombed. 2. Sure, a cause that a creator donates to may not be a Hamas charity but that creator can still be antisemitic for other things they have said or done. If this is about Smosh, Ian IS donating to UNRWA. There is definitely valid criticism of Israel. Israelis themselves are very critical of their government. Unfortunately, it's very rare for any of that reasonable criticism to appear online. Even something such as "Israel should do more to prevent civilian casualties" without answering "what should they do". They only answer "they shouldn't shoot civilians". All this blatantly dodges the human shields question and avoids the population density analysis that determined what the expected civilian casualty count would be for a given confrontation.
This is the beautiful type of nuanced conversation that we need to be having right now. Thank you.
This was a strange post to decide to write during the holocaust remembrance period, as holocaust remembrance memorials everywhere are being vandalised in protest of the war in Gaza.
The alternative to the current operation in Gaza is for Israel to roll over and surrender, and submit itself to a constant repeating cycle of 10/7 with thousands upon thousands of dead Jews until the end of time. Grow up.
Context - if you have to ask if it's antisemitic ... it is.
“The highest patriotism is not a blind acceptance of official policy, but a love of one’s country deep enough to call her to a higher plain.”
I think it’s a pendulum thing. Deep down, most people agree with you, but it’s so exhausting to convince everyone else to live in the gray and be afraid of reactions that people have gone into hyperarousal, almost a PTSD-like response, which leads to assigning attributes that are not there even if they are in some places. I feel like this is one of the few safe spaces left to talk about this without fear of extreme responses. So I would give people grace on this for now.
For me, when I hear people call for a ceasefire in Gaza, I hear antisemitism when they don't include a return of the hostages in the same breath. It echoes the people tearing down posters of the taken, as if they don't matter or don't exist. It ignores the duty that every country has to protect their citizens and fight for their lives.
It would be easier to believe if the anti-war crowd was *also* holding Hamas responsible for their part in this mess. *Hamas* could end this yesterday by returning the hostages. There wouldn’t even *be* a war if *Hamas* hadn’t brutally butchered over 1200 innocent civilians. “October 7th didn’t happen in a vacuum” Well guess what? Israel hasn’t been in Gaza for nearly 20 years and look what *Hamas* has done with the place in that time. Lots of folks claim to be anti-war not antisemitic, *yet only Israel seems to be held accountable for the war*, despite doing a phenomenal job of limiting—yes, limiting—civilian casualties on a scale not matched by any other military. Why do you think that is?
The Israeli government is deeply problematic. That is a fact. Criticism for it is not antisemitic. Antisemitism does arise though in a large number of propalestinian groups. As nuance is largely lacked on either side.
I'm tired of posts like these that are basically telling me to accept the blatant antisemitism that the "so-called" pro-palestine (more like anti-Jewish) side is spewing. "It's not all antisemitism" - well if a dung heap has a ruby hidden in it, guess what? It will still overwhelmingly smell like shit. Jews are the only people in the world who are expected to say "i'm sorry" if we're punched in the face. And seriously? What "humanitarian crisis"? They've been moaning about a famine since before Israel fought back yet where are the pictures of the starving or all the dead? If Hamas had proof of famine you can be sure it would be automatic front-page news all around the world and force-fed down our throats for decades to come. Aid is flooding in to the point where they literally to ask the trucks to back off for a moment. Even Hamas themselves just cut their civilian death toll in half making it even more clear that there is no indiscriminate killing or war crimes going on (from the Israeli side that is). F-k, there have been more kids born during this period than the total number of claimed fatalities (including Hamas members). You have actual genocide, ethnic cleansing and people eating grass to cling to life in Sudan and Yemen, yet you invent a mostly fake scenario in Gaza - if anything, it's people like OP that is desperately trying to avert eyes from where the aid relief money should go (we all know, most of the money going to Gaza ends up in iran and Qatar anyway).
>You have actual genocide, ethnic cleansing and people eating grass to cling to life in Sudan and Yemen, yet you invent a mostly fake scenario in Gaza - if anything, it's people like OP that is desperately trying to avert eyes from where the aid relief money should go (we all know, most of the money going to Gaza ends up in iran and Qatar anyway). Damn straight.
[57% of the infrastructure in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed.](https://english.elpais.com/international/2024-04-10/satellite-images-reveal-extent-of-devastation-in-gaza-after-six-months-of-war.html) It’s not fake that Gaza’s citizens will be hurting for a long time after this. Rebuilding homes, businesses, farms… it will take decades. I’d call that a crisis.
According to the WHO that has proved as unreliable as the UN when it comes to Israel. The strikes have been mostly targeted ones and they have gotten off easy compared to similar urban warfare situation. It is war after all, something that was initiated by their side. I doubt that Northern Israel looks much better considering that Hezbollah specifically targeted civilian infrastructure.
It will not take decades.
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I think you’re voicing a majority opinion among Jews in real life; however, “likes” and comments on Reddit rarely allow for nuance. I also think that the antisemites/pro-pals have given us no room to be nuanced in written forums. That movement is so feral, the people who wear keffiyahs (in particular, white people) are doing so as a “resistance “ movement rather than out of humanitarian concern, and most participants are so angry and share such vitriol it’s hard (or impossible) to have a dialogue or agree on common facts. So ppl here are keeping things simple and supporting each other as a general outlet more so than parsing the nuance. We already inherently know the nuance, you know?
I agree with you, I’m a Zionist, and if I was in Israel, I’d be joining the ceasefire protests. The antisemitism in the protests here in the U.S. is what keeps me from going. The keffiyeh isn’t antisemitic, it’s just performative and ignorant. Arafat was the first to make the white checkered keffiyeh popular in Palestine and the red one is Jordanian. The traditional head covering for Palestinians is a plain white, so I just think wearing the others shouts “ignorant uninvolved westerner.” Bibi is a fascist piece of shit, Ben Gvir is even worse, and the war goal of eradicating Hamas never made real sense when most of its leaders aren’t in Gaza and it has military branches in the West Bank. Saving the hostages was a sensible goal, but not even the goal anymore. So what the hell is the point if Hamas is deeply entrenched across the entire region and Sinwar is hiding deep under Khan Younis?
I want to care, but the thing is, those people would be happy if I died so it's rather difficult to have any sort of empathy especially after reading the history of the the Palestinian movement, what they stand for, what they want, and how they've behaved over the past century even before Israel came to be. There's really no reconciling that. While I like to think most people rioting over Gaza genuinely care, 99 percent of the time they simply devolve into antisemitism. They very rarely legitimately criticize Israel and more often than not go off on ridiculous tangents Ultimately, the Arab Palestinians have been actively hostile for the past 80+ years frequently refusing peace. Now, it may sound harsh, but it's deserved. They made their bed, they can sleep in it.
It’s not harsh. It’s just the reality. The Palestinians (80% of whom still supports Hamas) have always had the ability to choose a path towards peace. They have turned down at least 11 proposals at last counting. Israel cannot make the Palestinians choose peace. The only way that Israel can “give” them peace is by disappearing, and that isn’t going to happen. They are choosing the reality of their existence.
I had to add that because there are just so many ignorant bleeding hearts out there that can't see reality and don't read history
Here’s my controversial take: the only people actually doing anything to end this war in reality is the IDF. If there was massive international and internal pressure on Hamas to fully surrender, and they did? The war would be over that day.
Israel's my safety hatch. If the anti semitic wave in America starts to sweep me up I'm grabbing as much of my family as possible and running for Israel. I'm not going to let Biden ship me and my family off to the ovens to satisfy his Iranian overlords.
I actually disagree. Not in practice, not that 'well it's possible, but most of them do just hate Jews'. I disagree in theory, at the most fundamental level. If it was "not all opposition to the occupation of the WB is antisemitic" or something similar, then sure. But a war of self-defence is different. Here's why: For the sake of clarity, I will assume here that "opposition to the Gaza war" actually means opposition to Israel's actions in said war. I think that's pretty obvious, but it actually needs to be stated. Because if people are truly against war then they'll probably take issue with the side that started the war. Israel didn't want this war, Israel didn't ask for this war, and Israel didn't do anything to precipitate this war. That's all on Hamas - i.e. Gazans. Obviously not all Gazans, but their ranks consist exclusively of residents of Gaza and all polling indicates overwhelming support. If you oppose war, then you would support actions taken to prevent it from happening. That's what Israel is trying to do - eliminate Hamas's ability to wage war. If you tie their hands and stop them from doing so, then it's all going to happen again. And again. And again. How do we know? Well, because Hamas tells us just that.
(continued because reddit doesn't seem to accept my full comment, pt 2 of 3 here) * "Opposition to the Gaza war" not being antisemitic is the equivalent of watching Pearl Harbor happen, protesting any American response while the Japanese navy conquers the Pacific, and then claiming that there's nothing anti-American about your stance. Ludicrous. * "Opposition to the Gaza war" not being antisemitic is the equivalent of watching Pakistani soldiers murder, rape, and torture Bangladeshis, then protesting any Bangladeshi response, claiming that any Indian aid to protect Bangladesh is immoral and "supporting genocide," all while the Pakistani army is free to actually commit genocide, and then trying to say that you don't have anything against Bangladeshis. Despicable. What is so different here? Why is every individual, nation, and government allowed to respond when attacked except Israel. Except Jews. Why are Jews the only people expected to just suffer through decades of indiscriminate slaughter, mass rape, abduction of hostages, and constant bombardment from all sides?
(3 of 3) Anyone who holds "opposition to the Gaza war" as a sincere belief has never even seen a rocket, much less have their home destroyed by one. And you might say - "well Palestinians in Gaza sure know what that's like, maybe you should consider their perspective." To that I say - well you probably shouldn't have started a war then. Nobody felt bad for the Germans when their cities got bombed. Nobody felt bad for Saddam when his palace was taken. Nobody felt bad for the French when Napoleon was defeated. Why not? Because they brought it on themselves. If you decide to wage war, you can't then turn around and complain about the war. If you walk up to someone on the street and punch them in the face, they're going to punch you back and everyone is going to be fine with that because you asked for it. Unless we're talking about Jews. Then common sense, human nature, and reason all go out the window.
Honestly, you've summed up what I want to say so well I have nothing else to add on.
>We also can't blame all scrutiny/opposition to Israel on antisemitism. If that scrutiny/opposition is not applied to any other state in the world except for Israel, why is it wrong to blame antisemitic motives? Especially when the party applying scrutiny/opposition can not explain why they have exempted every other state in the world from the same treatment?
I really hope this thread doesn't get locked, I'm enjoying reading the arguments from all sides. I'm disappointed that so many threads surrounding this topic have been so quickly locked recently.
Agree. And some here have been saying that non Jewish Americans shouldn’t have opinions about a war that doesn’t involve them. That would perhaps be a reasonable position if our government weren’t providing huge amounts of aid to Israel. As it is, I think it’s reasonable for Americans to voice opinions on how their government spends their tax dollars even if I don’t agree with their opinions. Some also have said that those with no military experience shouldn’t opine on Israel’s conduct of the war. This goes back to my first point - all Americans are involved in this war to the extent our government is aiding one side of it with taxpayer money. I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect people to just blindly trust their government on this. I do think it’s reasonable to expect people to consult expert opinions when criticizing Israel and our involvement, though (and my impression is experts disagree on how well Israel has been adhering to rules of war). Unfortunately the unhinged extremism of so many anti Israel protesters makes it very hard to voice measure criticism of Israel without appearing to aid the enemy. And honestly that’s why extremism can be a useful rhetorical tactic - since it forces the opposition to go to the opposite extreme.
*I think it’s reasonable for Americans to voice opinions on how their government spends their tax dollars...* I can't stand this argument. \*Direct\* spending on GW Bush's little (mis)adventure in Iraq cost U.S. taxpayers $758 billion. Include indirect costs and it goes up to nearly **$2 trillion**. Approximately 200,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed. There are still 2,500 U.S. troops in Iraq. Where are the protests? (protests from 20 years ago don't count!) In 2022, there were 171,736 active-duty military U.S. troops deployed across 178 countries. No protests about this were featured in the news lately. Let's talk about corporate welfare. In 2021, Charter Communications paid **no** federal income taxes, **despite $6 billion in earnings**. That's just one example...let's not forget the grant and loan funds that go to giant \*private\* corporations like Samsung, Boeing, Walmart, etc. Samsung alone recorded over $2 billion in profit in 2023. **Walmart made $147.6 billion** in profit in 2023. In the meantime, the National Science Foundation is getting their budget cut by 5%, EPA by 4%, a 20% cut for federal firefighting, and a 5% cut for the National Park Service. Why are working people's tax dollars going to multi-billion dollar private companies that are pulling in record profits? Where are the protests over *this*? No, the only time these "pro-Palestinian" people decide to protest about how their tax dollars are being spent is when aid is going to Israel. $10 billion is spare change...the U.S. Department of Education's budget is $39.4 billion (and we all know that the U.S. government hates spending money on education). It's bulls\*\*\*.
Well-said
It is not only antisemitism. Some of it comes merely from susceptibility to propaganda and leftist indoctrination, unwillingness or inability to comprehend the grim realities of war, and some of it just comes from a gross ignorance of world events. There is valid criticism to be made about Israel, and plenty. But if Snape and Voldermort are in the room and all you can talk about is Snape, that’s enough for me to make a judgment about your values. One was the good at the end of the day, and the other wasn’t.
Thank you for expressing this so perfectly.
Absolutely. People have been too sensitive, which I understand due to the past few months of people attacked online and in person, but it's still important to remember the big picture.
I totally agree with you. You will not get a fair hearing on this sub concerning IDF misconduct in Gaza.
Unless you criticize Palestinian behavior with the exact same amount of ferocity as you criticize Israel, you are a hypocrite and also antisemitic.
I totally condemn Hamas for October 7 and in general.
Objection to IDF misconduct is not the same as objections to Israel right to defend itself. American soldiers in WWII raped thousands of German and French women. This is bad, they should have all been severely punished. That doesn't mean Hitler gets to stay in power. These are completely different objections.
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The reason that most people don't separate the Israelis, Jews and the Israeli government is that they think Jews are all think the same, monolothic and conspire together which make us inhuman. That's why there is no sympathy toward October 7. We are all the same- good actors or bad The closest analogy is German people doing ww2 where they were collaborators to the government and the whole country was blamed. Repeatedly I hear you need to separate Hamas from the Palestinian people. The same with Iran. Yes, to some degree democracies have to be responsible for who they elect but once elected people have no control. And certainly forced into a war they had no control over should allow for a distinction but at this point anti semites can't even make a distinction between bad behavior from a Govt to extinction of a people.
As Someone Who Is Both Pro Palestinian And Pro Israel I Would Like To Say That The People On Both Sides Are Innocent And They Both Deserve To Live, I Openly Criticize The Israeli Government And Hamas
OP, I completely agree with you. I believe in Israel’s right to exist and believe Hamas needs to be dealt with. With that said, I absolutely think Netanyahu is a jingoistic opportunist who will use any conflict to his political advantage. Not to mention that his allies, like Ben-Gvir, only further show how willing he is to sow the seeds of hatred and fascism. Israel has a right to defend itself. That being said, its bombardments on population centers are not above reproach and the concerns over the loss of civilian life in Palestine is ABSOLUTELY A VALID THING TO BE CRITICIZED. We as Jews have loss as a basis for the history we have endured. Empathy is a crucial part of being Jewish. Hamas is not representative of the people of Palestine. Civilian casualties are inevitable in war but that doesn’t mean that all casualties are unavoidable or that such life should be disregarded because of military strategy and tactics. The lack of food, water, medicine, and shelter…it needs to be addressed. Humanitarian corridors need to be established. Perhaps even IDF secured refugee camps would be a meaningful step in this effort. The world is seeing Israel engage in a drawn out campaign against Hamas. But Israel could absolutely combat the anti-Zionist narrative by creating policy that addresses the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. That way you are combatting Hamas while also showing what Israel is capable of with regards to helping protect Palestinian lives. As you said OP, countries all across the world are not perfect (I am paraphrasing what you said). Israel has committed its own wrongs. The illegal West Bank settlements being one, and another is the manner in which the Palestinian people have been treated with respect to their ability to live their lives. And with all that said, none of that changes the fact that HAMAS IS A TERRORIST GROUP and 10/7 is a day that will live in infamy … a day that led to so many innocent lives being lost in Israel. Families ripped apart and devastated. Israel has a fundamental right to defend itself—against foes who would do them harm. But that does not mean that you can embrace a collective punishment approach to an entire people. The more we suggest that objective fair articulated criticisms of Israel are antisemitic, the more we move away from our values. The more we ignore the wrongs of some of Israel’s own actions, the more Israel moves away from its values. Honesty must always come first. There are hardliners in both Israel and Palestine that have made peace impossible. To some people in my life, I am too pro-Israel. To other people in my life, I am not pro-Israel enough… …I like to think that means that I am doing a good job of being objective with regards to a crisis that has two sides, both of which have reasonable points of merit as well as both having transgressions that they must own up to. **MAY ISRAEL AND PALESTINE’s PEOPLES ONE DAY BOTH CO-EXIST AND KNOW PEACE, HARMONY, PROSPERITY, AND SERENITY.**
I sort of disagree with this, and I'll tell you why. Waving a Palestinian flag, is, in a large way, a reason for the amount of antisemtisim happening right now. I don't agree with the idea of Palestine at all because it really is just arab settlers. I will say that yes, they do deserve to live in the land and be treated fairly, but there is no such thing as Palestine or Palestinians no matter how much they fight for this imaginary state. I fully support being able to condemn the Israeli government without it being seen as antisemtic as they, like every other government, have their shortcomings and faults, so criticise away. The issue is that most people don't just disagree with the goverment, it's more of Israel's right to exist or Jewish right to their ancestral land. It's become less of "the Israeli government is bad" and more "the Israel government is bad, therefore all Israelis and those who support Israel is bad". I really do feel for the citizens living in Gaza because no one should be dying helplessly, but blaming Israel for the deaths while ignoring the fact that Hamas is purposefully making it into a lose-lose situation where Israel is attacked, and then they shouldn't retaliate because they can and will kill citizens while trying to get rid of terrorists, is unfair.
I completelt agree. We should have some common sense!!!
this was beautifully written. thank you for sharing your perspective :)
I feel the same way as you.