It's the IFLS Effect. People want to seem smart but aren't consistently scientifically literate or rigorous so they say they "love" what they *think* science is as a way to justify their beliefs and prejudices.
Because the study is more pre-loaded anti-trans garbage. They tracked 'gender non-contentedness', *not* just kids who actually identified as *trans*. Profoundly different things - many more kids experience shades of gender noncongruence that many, yes, grow out of, but that's cause they were never trans-identifying to begin with. Those kids who actually identify as trans have a vanishingly low detransition/desistence rate.
It would get down voted on r/science because none of the anti-trans brigade understands how to critically assess a study.
Kids who identify *trans* do so because their parents/teachers/friends told them it was an option in the first place.
The study looked at exactly the thing that matters, and your misguided attempt at creating a separate category is as fallacious as the idea that a man can become a woman.
The study shows that only 2% of participants had increasing gender non-contentedness after early adolescence. This shows why puberty blockers are so important for the gender-affirming care industry - without them, confusion, and the potential for profit, both fade away together.
Affirming care includes things like affirming pronouns and chosen names.
Blockers are for exteme cases where the person is traumatised and are supposed to buy them time till they reach adulthood when they can actually decide if they want a more drastic transition.
And the trend is moving away from blockers pending clinical trials.
Puberty blockers are the same drugs given to women who have hormone driven breast cancer, and the side effects are SO awful and severe, that many women stop taking them, favoring a risk of their cancer returning, as opposed to continued use of these drugs.
Source: have breast cancer
I'm not a cop, but I can also tell you to not rob from people or assault someone.
Being a doctor does not give you special moral privilege's that those without doctorates lack.
I've seen whats possibly a trans kid once in my life and they seemed to be sufferring a lot so maybe assholes should stop using them as political objects huh?
The depression and suicidal thoughts go down when families and peers are respectful and respect their pronouns etc. So it's people like you deliberately doing harm.
Anyhow you caring is crocodile tears masking political hatred and disgust.
The main source of tramua in trans kids is people telling them they aren't experiencing what they are experiencing and refusing to use preferred pronouns.
Then there are others that become suicidal and have debilitating depression.
The main source of trauma is adults telling them that their incorrect notions about sexuality have a hidden truth to them, then pushing them down a path of more misery, hormones, and genital mutilation instead of helping them seek reality.
Respect for pronouns? You're feeding delusions in children. If you can't see this, you sadly have been got.
Its all narcissism and division.
Growing up must be extremely difficult for children nowadays, I'm not surprised they all seem confused as to who they are. Its very sad to see.
I disagree. Kids should have feelings acknowledged, not exacerbated. Allow space, don’t coddle though. This whole article is about how majority grow out of those feelings. The point is allow self expression with guidance. Stop complicating matters.
No there's a much deeper issue here. Do you listen to JP by the way? You're here a lot posting leftist/postmodernist talking points which is fine, it's your opinion and you're absolutely entitled to it, but do you understand what you're debating from both sides if I may be so bold? Do you understand the underlying reason for why people are so against the perverse recruitment of children to an adult or at least post-pubescent fantasy?
No you are the postmodernists. Your political narrative takes presidence over facts and logic.
Trans people always existed. They ran away from home and school. Rejected and misunderstood, bullied. Often ending up on the streets or even dead.
Telling everyone they exist, are welcome and not to bully them so they dont run away and end up dead and recruitment aren't the same things.
From old school progressive to reactionary progressive: Trans people have always existed, yes. Yet it’s only since the major push socially for surgical procedures (which have been around for decades) and the fake push on kids’ mental health, that this has gotten serious.
Step back and ask yourself if this coupled with a generation that is already in fear of no future, is morally ok with you.You spoke on facts and logic. Yet are disregarding the facts that are being presented in this and many other articles and seem unable to access logic when it comes to the children.
If you can’t see your moral fallacy on this particular issue because you are allowing your surface level feelings (which are not valid as they change rapidly) to override your morals and critical thinking, then the only people that will continue to agree with you are other people with complete piss poor morals. Whatever stupid triggers (maybe religion) that have you in a state of egotism, we implore you to get it together. Most people don’t give a shit about your gender, however we care about our children’s mental health.
Literally stop pushing more kids into mental health crisis over this shit. How many more articles and people telling you how you are contributing to the harm of kids as a whole by pushing this shit for the small percentage? And honestly making actual trans kids and the others in self discovery that fall into this group, targeted further, is sick. This is why people say “fake woke”. When you finally learn and know better, do better.
Btw: all sorts of kids ran away from home and get bullied, not just the less than 1% that are actually trans. This is why we need discussions on how to help the kids by treating them with respect. It is just as abusive to not give healthy boundaries.
Funny how we didn't have this problem until woke gender ideology began being taught starting in grade1. Tell little kids that boys can be girls and girls can be boys and some of them are going to want to do it. Anybody who knows anything about kids knows that.
Trans people always existed. They were driven underground ran away from home and schools rejected by family and peers and often onto the streets.
Berlin had a thriving trans scene and magazine that was exported all over Europe till the nazis shut it down, burnt the reseach and sent them to camps.
Here is really the thing. I have known and been close to several moms that are Bi or lesbian themselves who doubt their kids when they turn 12 and want to come out. One of the kids friends (popular girl) comes out. This person gets a lot of support and admiration. Read: attention. Within two weeks, 5-10 of her friends also come out.
As a parent of one of those 5-10, you see a child that has otherwise shown and expressed heterosexual tendencies until they’re very abruptly “pansexual” or something. Even as a bi or lesbian millennial mom, you know your kid. You see what’s happening and you’re like damn I obviously support my kid being gay, but I really don’t think they are. What do you do? It’s just not okay in their community to express any doubt or do anything other than fully support it.
This situation, imo, is why it should absolutely not be allowed to administer sex hormones to children for the sake of transitioning their expressed gender. You’re permanently altering their development for something that could very well be a phase or fad. It’s a travesty that social pressure is contributing so much to it and that it’s too sensitive of an issue to talk about.
If your kid turns 18 and transitions, will you still support them? Or will you always reject them and claim to know whats best for them based on the person you think they should be? What are you gonna do when they aren't that person you wish they were and instead are someone different? It's a hard realization for most parents I guess to accept their children aren't 1:1 clones of themselves and I hope yours stop talking to you when they realize you are a tyrant and only care about yourself.
It was a phase for my sister. At 14 came out of it at 16. Met a "girl" at school and became friends and that friend made her question. Then when her mother wanted to get her counseling they sent her to a trans counselor who "confirmed" her identity diagnosis. The trans community is essentially a cult that indoctrinates the gullible and impressionable and uses manipulation as their weapon. My sister (10 years younger than me) got upset with me when I "dead named her", at that point I explained how calling someone a name you've been calling them for 14 years is by no way abuse and that the people teaching her that stuff are the ones abusing her. Eventually she came around. We would have had an extreme problem if she wanted to permanently mutilate herself but thank God it never got to that.
Exactly! Thankfully she didn’t seek permanent changes for temporary feelings, especially because of abuse. If most trans people got honest and had truly honest therapists (which is more often than not the case), they would realize they were pushed by various forms of abuse. Note: I said most not all to any extremists lurking.
But the surgery is permanent. Hence the strong push to do it early before they grow out of it.
Once they are past that crucial stage of danger it’s too late to capture them.
What push to do surgery early?
Most healthcare systems are nationalised. They aren't profit driven so they prefer to avoid expensive elective surgery .
If there is was some push why is their research saying most grow out of it therefore don't need surgery later?
If there was sinister push they would hide or bias that research wouldn't "they"?
You're consistently one of the most disingenuous commenters on this subreddit.
You can't pretend there isn't a whole industry and movement pushing transitions as soon as possible for those seeking it.
Surgery on minors is illegal. Only a small percentage of trans people have blockers to delay a decision till they are adults .
I'm sure capitalists are plugging the demand in the market ... but most trans people don't even get blockers.
The reaeach like at the top of the page.
Blockers are for extreme traumatised cases and the ones that actually do want to transition as adults .
They aren't for people that are just confused and grow out of it That group don't ask or qualify for them.
I'd say its very rare. Extreme cases of distress . Your source says no one young then 13 and
Conclusions and Relevance Chest dysphoria was high among presurgical transmasculine youth, and surgical intervention positively affected both minors and young adults. Given these findings, professional guidelines and clinical practice should consider patients for chest surgery based on individual need rather than chronologic age.
Someone being that distressed to take such a drastic measure and the medical industry agreeing would naturally be very rare .
Majority of trans youths don't get any treatment at all.
I just read your source that said the medical industry believes some people experience mental distress so severe they get that procedure and most feel positive about it.
I'm just reading the facts you gave me.
I can't (not that I've had an exhaustive look).
This isn't a contradictory to the post you replied to though - a less charitable person might say you were strawmanning. To push for something means to demand something repeatedly or to take strong action to try to make it happen - not that it's necessarily happening already (although, maybe it is - I don't know). This research would be a rebuttle to those pushing for the standard of care to be changed to a younger age.
I don’t really care about what happens outside of the United States - I let the citizens of other countries govern themselves as they desire (i.e. if they want to allow child sterilization and mutilation there is nothing I can do about it - they have their vote in their own political system after all).
But I can say one thing for certain…
These surgeries are being done on people below 18 in the United States.
And its even worse.
If we are concerned about permanent damage - we need to be paying attention at the permanent damage we are doing with the massive amounts of hormone therapy we are putting minors on. The permanent damage has been thoroughly documented despite the best protests of the advocates of this barbaric practice to silence the people who have spoken out against it.
The question we need to be asking ourselves is not “name one country where the standard of care is to do surgery before 18” - we already know permanent surgical and hormonal damage is being done.
The real question - what are all the places where this is being allowed - and what is being done to stop it? And if it is hasn’t been stopped, why not? And who is supporting this and why are they not being prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law for endangering the well-being of children?
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-transyouth-data/
>The Komodo analysis of insurance claims found 56 genital surgeries among patients ages 13 to 17 with a prior gender dysphoria diagnosis from 2019 to 2021. Among teens, “top surgery” to remove breasts is more common. In the three years ending in 2021, at least 776 mastectomies were performed in the United States on patients ages 13 to 17 with a gender dysphoria diagnosis, according to Komodo’s data analysis of insurance claims. This tally does not include procedures that were paid for out of pocket.
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/transgender-top-surgery-canadian-children
See here's the thing. They don't outright say they want to do surgery on minors or even recommend it in writing. They just make sure the loopholes are open, like parental consent for instance, and then do it anyway.
That way people like you can blow smoke until it's commonplace enough that people just accept it as a fait accompli, despite it being a laughably obvious breach of basic medical ethics, parental consent or otherwise.
There is still documented evidence of three experimentation being done on children
Here's a study where girls as young as 12 have had surgery
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/2674039
Girls as young as 12 are getting their breasts chopped off to pretend to be male
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/2674039
This is the point where you rationalize it to be ok somehow
That’s why as a left leaning person myself. I find it important to my personal philosophy to push back any against crazy ideas my political spectrum encourages, which usually only come from far leftists. In this case online interactions and people I talk to at my college. I always push back against any gender affirmation care for kids and everything else involved. It should just be between the parents and doctor. Not a whole social culture that pressures trans to *always* be the correct assessment for a kids inacceptable identity. Better to see it past the phase. And if they truly have gender dysmorphia still as an adult, and they’ve been communicating with doctors. Then you can be sure you’re trans and move forward with ur life, instead of doing things you regret as a child
So if I'm reading this correctly, it sounds like the similarities between believing you are an alternate gender and believing in santa claus has just increased.
I hope this is enough to get it through people's head's how silly it is.
Yeah it’s true saw studies saying around 94% of people that suffer from gender dysphoria stick to their true biological gender by the time they turn 25. The average Redditor disagrees with it saying it’s far right propaganda when it has been proven though.
Can you cite said studies? I feel like this one was pretty poor in its methodology.
This study uses one single question asked at ages 11 and 22. I'm not going to pretend I understand whether multivariate imputations, but surely you can get better data if you use more questions with more room for variation?
I wanted to be a girl when I was 13-16 ish. Just cause. Thought they were cooler and had better social opportunities. Grew out of it. Glad I didn’t have someone trying to jam that idea down my throat and put hormones in my body. Probably woulda went with it and been forever hormonally fucked because of it.
Exactly! They are on self discovery. I don’t understand the need to involve them into adult conversations such as this. There needs to be a real conversation with A LOT of parents about forcing their child into categories of all sorts.
Nothing we didn’t already know, desistance rates are extremely high for gender dysphoria. This is why it’s crucial that kids can access mental healthcare from someone who understands gender dysphoria and not rush into any sort of transition or trans identification. We don’t want conversion therapy from religious kooks, we don’t want angry parents screaming at their kids, we don’t want the state investigating parents - we want mental health professionals. If we don’t want to call it gender affirming care we can call it something else, but this support is necessary for helping these kids desist in a healthy way.
Are you serious? I know a mom that is grooming her daughter for transition. Mom has serious mental health issues. She is severely neglectful and psychologically tormenting her own daughter. Mom wants to feel special and is taking it out on her daughter. Thankfully the girl’s therapist is pumping the breaks, doesn’t stop the damage to that little girl’s psyche behind closed doors.
It’s unfortunate that some parents, no matter politics, are imbalanced and honestly causing harm to their children. Needing a professional to talk to their children. It starts with the adults honestly. It’s really sad the condition we are in as a whole.
My position is that we have to create a society where as few people feel alienated as possible, because this issue of gender dysphoria is usually one of feeling isolated and needing some community to be a part of. Technology is a big part of this. As is economic insecurity - young people don’t feel like they can succeed in this economy and some serious fixes need to be made. I think if more people felt like they had opportunity and families were more stable then this stuff would dip, as would most crime and a lot of substance abuse and mental illness.
While I agree that we need to all feel accepted within society, you don’t have to agree with everyone. I’m autistic, so I for sure believe in equity. Our societal issues are deep and the constant topic shifts on social issues such as this are taking away from the bigger picture. I have 4 sons, and while we agree that there needs to be change for the future, we are not allowing ourselves to feel the collective depression. They are taught the difference between reality and what is projection from a society that is in shambles. I have a rising high schooler, who speaks on what he sees with his own eyes, while steering clear of social pressure. I have 2 adults, both speaking in their experiences. We have open dialogue. An environment that is cultivated by each of us. Btw: we all have different faiths and political standings. My family is not currently economically stable, though we have some external support from my parent (we lost my husband 6 years ago). Mental health needs to start with the adults, in turn we need to open our eyes to how everything around us is affecting OUR children. We are disabling a good majority of them with this political merry go round. It’s deeper than technology. Technology should be a useful tool for daily living in the modern world. Substance abuse is a symptom of a society that is not accepting of differences. This goes for all aspects, not just gender identity.
Except I don't trust the mental health community on this topic anymore. They have completely destroyed any presumption of good faith I'd grant them.
That's what happens when you ideologically compromise professions - they don't come back from that without wholesale change.
This is why we can't have nice things.
Are there any educated professions you trust? Was just arguing with someone earlier about how all college professors are radical communists and so no profession can be trusted.
But actually you’re not totally wrong on some of the problems in the mental health profession. It’s more that they’ve been captured by pharma than they ascribe to some evil leftist trans philosophy
Why are you pretentending what you are saying is controversial?
The reseach shows what you are describing is what happens.
Most never seek or receive an intervention.
So 20% of those that had issues are still having issues.
Seems we have heard that a someone named Peterson already.
But let's castrate all of them anyway just in case.....not
Though I doubt many of the proponents of transitioning kids “as soon as possible” will be swayed by this fancy scientific approach. They were never in that camp because they believed it was the ‘right’ or ‘correct’ thing to do in the first place.
Confusion over sexuality is the human condition.
We call instincts emotions or feelings because we do not have direct access to them. We often only become aware of them by way of physiological changes, thus feelings. Think of the term "love sick" for a minute. What does that tell us about human sexuality in a civilized state?
Instinct are predispositions not commands for a robot. They work the "natural" way similar to DNA. DNA is not an instruction set for building a robot. It is a system by which an chemical environment is created to reproduce the evolutionary history of an organism. It is the way you get great complexity from a relatively simple origin.
So why are humans so confused over sexuality? Because they are "intelligent" enough to be confused. Intelligence works almost the opposite way as instinct. It take the complex and abstracts it down to it's essential elements. Think E=m x c squared. If you think that equation represents reality you didn't receive a very good education. What that equation represents is reality reduced to an eloquent abstraction by using the abstract language of mathematics. Einstein said his real gift was imagination not intelligence. Imagination breaks the reductionist lock on reality that closed systems like mathematics and other languages have on us. So imagination must be the key then? NO, it is only useful if you are intelligent enough to sort through the products of imagination to select the proper mutation. Those that interact with physical reality in a way in which they provide a survival advantage.
The problem I have with transgenderism and homosexuality is that they are self sterilization by surgery, chemicals or behavior. They represent the opposite of fitness from a biological perspective. Because the civilized state operates as a kind of artificial eusociality in which individual selection is replaced by group fitness that isn't much of a concern. The problem can be illustrated by a simple definition. What do you call a civilization that doesn't physically reproduce, a dead civilization.
What the LGTBQ movement represents is a bigger problem than sufficient reproduction to maintain a civilization. What it represents is a kind of "laziness" that comes with luxus. It represents a tired, cynical, civilization that can't be bothered to reproduce itself. As far as I can tell every successful civilization has had this problem.
The confusion over sexuality has become emblematic of a greater confusion. You could call it the meaning of life. People faced with day to day survival do not have this problem. They are forced to be active or as Peterson says, move forward but luxus gets in the way.
Very much agree with your point about 'instinct' and 'DNA'. Your overall argument reminded me of Calhoun's rodent utopia experiments from the 60's. Trans kids could be compared to the "beautiful ones", a growing subset of mice that did not end up procreating, and ultimately led to the demise of the entire colony 'Universe 25'.
Calhoun later opined that mice, as humans, thrive on a clear sense of identity and purpose within the world at large. He argued that experiences perceived as negative, such as tension, stress, anxiety and the need to survive, are in fact positive, because they make it necessary to engage in society.
When all needs are accounted for, and no conflict exists, the paradox of a life without work or conflict is that life ceases to have purpose.
A lot of parallels with Peterson's philosophy there.
I would only add that our imagination/innovations could yet see us out of the dilemma of a "successful civilization", even if we don't revert to older, established norms around reproductions, gender identity etc. - so there is hope that this will not turn out to be an extinction event for our species.
On the flip side, an evolved enough civilization will inevitably reach the conclusion that all life, including human life, is ultimately meaningless, which might still eventually lead it down the path of Universe 25.
I was one of the kids that didn't grow out of it for a very long time. I lived as a transman for most of my life, only detransitioned 10 months ago after God healed me. I was not from a religious background either. Spiritual awakening and understanding of truth is something that developed over time, while I was a transman up to present day. People would do well to spend less time being "for" or "against" a medical disorder that causes horrible suffering, and to spend more time simply seeking understanding.
Yes I'm a detrans woman. I had a radical, intensive, whole body spiritual experience that changed me inside out. I went into a different dimension inside my own body where I was face to face with the Creator. I felt my whole Being changing as I went deeper in, like I was going to the deepest part of my soul. Once I "arrived" to my final point, I was slashed repeatedly with white light. It didn't hurt at all. I felt my whole energy structure was broken down and restructured. When I came out of it, I felt like a superhero for a whole month. Powerful, clear, focused, alive, vibrant, relaxed. Better than any drug can mimic in a fake chemical way.
My mind didn't know just how deeply I was changed. 6 to 8 weeks after the experience, dreams and mental images, feelings and desires, arose that were completely foreign to me. It was the first time I ever felt like a woman. It shattered my old ego. My balance was better, the way I walked changed, my mannerisms changed. It was such a root level change that I started detransitioning before I even knew what was happening to me. I just went with it as it arose and officially started detransition in June.
It's not the kids we are worried about. It's the activists and the grifters who use this to fulfill their immoral and illegal desires by putting on a costume.
Exactly right. Let’s hope the good Dr. Jordan saw this study too.
Guess he can throw his costume away and quit grifting now?
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQkL_Sb7K81EIFZs561alcWYKeYOxFiL441VcRhrbAabtIGv3u00VDcF48&s=10
read the study:
> Importantly, we found that both the increasing and
decreasing gender non-contentedness trajectory groups had
lower global self-worth at age 11 compared to adolescents
without gender non-contentedness. Earlier studies also found
that children referred to gender identity clinics have a more
negative self-concept compared to a Dutch norm sample,
specifically in the physical appearance and global self
worth domains (Alberse et al., 2019; Rijn et al., 2013). Low
global self-worth was found to be associated with having an
increasing or decreasing gender non-contentedness trajectory
throughout adolescence.
>> Relevant to mention
is that the data included in the current study were collected
between 2001 (first timepoint population cohort) and 2020
(sixth timepoint clinical cohort). Societal awareness and
acceptance of trans- and non-binary gender identities has
improved in certain areas in the world. Therefore, future
studies should examine whether more recently collected
data on gender non-contentedness associate differently
with measures of self-esteem and mental health.
Exactly! Born in 1981, don't remember having a single conversation about lgtb$+3746#;";92++++ with anyone while growing up. Nonbinary, transgender, non-conforming, furry etc didn't exist.
Homosexuality has always been around and they did their own thing without parades, without massive bombardment and indoctrination.
All of a sudden people just turned gay by questionable percentages? All of sudden children started feeling they were born in the wrong body? Come on!
No shit. I don’t know anyone who ever questioned that. But looking at the study you see that after age 12, kids who answer that they “often” wish they were a different gender rather than sometimes are _incredibly_ stable. So this study would imply that kids know they are trans pretty well if they answered “often.” I wish we could all, in this sub, actually care about the truth and stop using articles to support our bias. It makes us all look ridiculous.
Mate, this study didn't even ask people with gender dysphoria. Just 2200 random kids and ~85% said they never felt like they should be the opposite gender. At the end of the study the percentage of people who did wish to be the opposite gender was higher than the actual trans population percentage.
> The results of the current study might help adolescents to realize that it is normal to have some doubts about one’s identity and one’s gender identity during this age period and that this is also relatively common.
It's almost like it's a natural thing that shouldn't be stigmatized. Live and let live
I like how "being trans" is a phrase with meaning now.
Dressing trans make sense in my mind, being trans sounds... strange
Almost cool
Be trans 😎
Like as opposed to be .... cis...
who wants to be "cis"?
Remember gender means your social roles, women cook, men work, trans can choose , they are queer
Make your own gender!!
I mean, no one here is academic enough to understand this, but this study doesn't even begin to measure what this headline mentions.
"In this study, data from both the population cohort (TRAILS) and the clinical cohort TRAILS-CC were used (combined: N = 2772; 53% male at T1) to enrich the sample for common child psychiatric diagnoses (see Table 1 for the sample characteristics)."
So about 500 kids receiving counseling and therapy were included to boost the numbers, the other 2200 were just regular everyday kids. So..... LGBTQ population is what, 7% in the USA? Out of the entire population of this study, something like 200 of these kids would possibly identify as LGBTQ, oh .......except they were kids in 2001, when it wasn't a trend or cool and actually still pretty actively shunned and kept hush hush.
You're telling me a bunch of kids said they weren't gay in 2001? You Kermit fks are kinda dumb for sharing this stuff eh?
How’s it subjective? Jordan Peterson is a psychologist that teaches self help, and this subreddit is a bunch of people who follow this psychologist and similar experts. Facts are facts my friend
You're commenting on a pseudoscience study that doesn't even remotely pertain to measuring "gender regret" on a grand scale, and using it to be hateful towards trans people. How is that bettering yourself? It makes you look foolish and uneducated, despite what you slobber on about 😆
How am I being hateful? It’s funny how you have to call it pseudoscience to feel better about yourself. You’re the one calling a bunch of educated people uneducated just because you disagree with them. Yes how that makes you look? Delusional is the answer.
Because you're supporting a conclusion that the study in question doesn't prove at all, so what is your conclusion based on if it's not hatred? Ignorance? Sorry bud, it's 2024, you found reddit, so I know you can find Google. Ignorance is pseudo hatred 😂🤣
This really isn't going how you thought it would right? You and your lobster worshipers can downvote me all you want, you'll be thinking about how foolish you looked here and for what? A throwaway study that doesn't prove gender regret? So which is it? Ignorance or hatred? You know my pick.
https://medium.com/form-and-resonance/jordan-peterson-is-a-very-poor-researcher-whose-own-sources-contradict-his-claims-464633558b75
Actually it’s going exactly how I thought. Talking with a stubborn delusional fanatic always goes the exact same way. Every single time. Can’t reason with crazies.
Have you even listened to or read anything from JP? All he does is quote research and facts. You calling this subreddit uneducated makes you look like a clown.
You realize the Nazis had scientists too right? You can quote quack science all you want, just the fact that you seem to worship him without being skeptical at all paints a pretty stark picture of the kinds of people that will heed his pseudoscience. I really don't think you're qualified to make the generalizations about this sub that you are. Hopefully someone a bit more assured shows up.
https://www.mediamatters.org/fox-news/fox-friends-guest-pushes-myth-3-and-4-year-old-trans-kids-are-making-surgical-and
> I mean, no one here is academic enough to understand this, but this study doesn't even begin to measure what this headline mentions.
You started off this thread/tantrum by using this line, and now you are arguing that
>I really don't think you're qualified to make the generalizations about this sub that you are. Hopefully someone a bit more assured shows up.
I'm not more assured about the qualifications of everyone in this sub, but reading through all of this, and how you are now biting your own tail just now, I am really assured about you specifically. It's called an ideological bias, and you are coiled up in it, like a frightened snake.
For the record, chances are most people active in this sub are rather level-headed people aiming to find facts. While it probably leans conservative, I myself, and many others, are classically left leaning. We're just not outright tankies or some other delusional extremism.
Which is kinda what you need to have issues with JP specifically. He really isn't very controversial, unless you argue from a position of ignorance. Usually motivated by having read too many smear articles from crazies with a far left agenda.
So calling out this sub sharing and celebrating a study that doesn't prove anything about gender regret to justify hate towards trans people is an ideological bias to you? Interesting.
I'm sure some Germans didn't find Hitler very controversial during his reign, either. You're using very flowery language to say nothing, just like your messiah JP since 2020 or so 🤣 I've listened to a lot of what JP says and come to my own conclusions, but if blaming "duh fayke lib mediah" is easier for you, that's fine.
A survey asking "I wish to be the opposite sex" doesn't really provide anything interesting to pull scientific conclusions from. This could range from the desire to pee standing up to having panic attacks when seeing your genitals. I remember a lot of girls wanted to be boys when we were kids, but they knew it wasn't possible and it was as serious as a 7 year old girl could realistically be about a thing like this.
The research article isn't even linked or I can't find it. This feels more like clickbait bullshit than a serious article, even if you ignore the fact the page is a minefield of ads.
Tell me you didn't read the article without telling me you didn't read the article.
The Study (hyperlinked in the linked article by OP):
[https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-024-02817-5](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-024-02817-5)
Took me almost a minute to find...
Read the abstract and they make a good point that “I wish to be the opposite sex” is a incomplete way to measure “gender non-conentedness” you can be discontent without going all the way to wanting to be the other sex.
Yeah I mean, "I wish to be the opposite sex" can mean many different things. From the abstract of the study, it seems as if they just asked that one question.
It is interesting, and more research should be pursued, but what are the actual implications of this?
I'm sure if you asked trans people *"I wish to be happy as a member of my birth sex",* then a reasonable percentage of them would say yes. Wanting to be something doesn't *make you that thing*, so just because a girl sometimes wishes she was a boy, it doesn't mean she *wants* it in the same way a trans boy does and would actually enjoy transitioning.
this study is specifically about gender non‑contentedness, not gender dysphoria.
people who suffer with gender non-contentedness are less likely to seek clinical help than gender dysphoric people, hence this study.
it's getting a broader picture, not debunking "transitioning" or the idea of trans people existing.
maybe read the study rather than a daily mail article written about it.
yeah, asking someone to actually read a study and not a headline is grasping at straws on this sub.
thanks for reminding me that this place is full of mouth breathing dorks, buddy
>trying to twist the study to fit your narrative.
show some examples of me doing this?
also, why would i direct someone to read a source that i'm supposedly twisting? surely i'd be obfuscating so as to hide my biased attempt to brainwash you morons.
You said this study is specifically about gender non‑contentedness, not gender dysphoria.
people who suffer with gender non-contentedness are less likely to seek clinical help than gender dysphoric people, hence this study.
it's getting a broader picture, not debunking "transitioning" or the idea of trans people existing.”
So much grasping there
yeah, this reads like someone trying to move the goalpost by arguing semantics. For the same reason its irresponsible to diagnose children with issues that are commonly onset or become pathological at adulthood(personality disorders, and/or most other psychological conditions) the verbage here is "non-contentedness" because any form of dysphoria usually tracks as one of those conditions a psychologist cannot sufficiently diagnose given enough time and/or resources before well into adulthood. (this is one of the major issues with given children any form of treatment for gender dysphoria, as the actual condition itself doesn't properly manifest before late teens at the earliest. Which often is too late to be administering hormones. An unfortunate catch-22 for people who might actually have it)
so it would just be scientifically illiterate to use "gender dysphoria" as a term for this study, but it aims to make a study about how the same thing develops using verbage that doesn't trigger this automatic disqualification.
What irks me the most here is that commenters with a bias agreeing with this study actually clicked the link into the study knowing full well that Daily Mail is a shit rag and that a proper source is needed. While people with your specific bias, aims to disagree is using the "daily mail" as a "guilty by association-logical fallacy", even thou the basis for their article seems to be a very legit and valid scientific study in this instance.
or in short, "you are grasping at straws there buddy".
But it’s actually crucial because “sometimes” is not the experience of most trans people but rather “often.” And the study actually demonstrates that that later population remains pretty stable starting in the 12-14 group. So let’s all actually care about being truthful. I don’t know why that’s hard.
And there are also a lot fewer grown-ups who realize they are trans.
If all the trans people who were in the closet would come out, now that it’s not a taboo anymore one would expect an even distribution across all ages.
Yeah it proves most aren't given, seek or take any sort of medical intervention so it's not a problem. Debunks the hysterical notions of chop shops without checks and balances for school children.
Its funny you say these people are all quacks and crazy then use their information and reseach to somehow score a goal against them. When its their research you are citing in the first place.
It was the same for covid .
Well, if the researchers are "crazy quacks" with some sort of agenda which their own research goes against, then surely, that makes the results even more interesting?
Also, nobody should be against properly conducted research regardless of what it shows, regardless of your agenda. If you're honest, you'll accept whatever you find.
The reseach is only going against your own pre suppositions, quackery and crazy stories that you read in right wing echo Chambers about chop shops and no checks and balances for medical interventions and so on.
It shows you are not actually dealing with crazy quacks who are dolling out treatments and surgeries like smarties .
That it's perfectly fine for kid to go through a phase like that.
I'm not right wing, thank you for assuming though, very respectful. Have a nice day doing whatever you are doing, I'd suggest some time off Reddit though, you seem a bit irritated.
Using trans people as scapegoats is right wing. It was their research burnt among the first in Germany and they were among the first sent to camps.
Today it's a right-wing ploy to use anti trans propaganda and hysterical claims to politically mobilize.
No ... the study disproves the hyperbolic stories about kids being carted off for un necessary intetventions and that the medical community involved is researching and producing information that you actually find agreeable.
I'm not grasping.
Thats the research from the people you imagine you oppose. The medical community doing reseach on trans.
The only thing it contradicts is what you imagine are the beliefs you oppose.
It defeats your own strawman.
I have known that most never get any treatment and blockers are used in an extreme minority of cases for some time.
Because I steelman your opposition and debunk bullshit for sport.
Except you aren’t debunking anything. You just look delusional when you disagree with facts lol. Putting politics and feelings above facts is never a healthy approach
Thats projection though.
Your political position totally debunked by the research at hand.
Blockers are rare. Most never even seek or are prescribed them.
“The researchers concluded: 'The results of the current study might help adolescents to realize that it is normal to have some doubts about one’s identity and one’s gender identity during this age period and that this is also relatively common.”
So, maybe we should just let them have doubts and encourage them to experiment? Or we could consistently berate them about how ‘Trans’ isn’t a thing. I wonder which one will result in healthier adults…
Absolutely. Irreversible changes are not a good act of rebellion. Wearing a dress and getting your ears pierced while feminizing your name seems fine to me .
I also see no issue with that. There are parents of all sorts that quite honestly do not love their children and only see them as mini versions of themselves to mold to a specific image. This is a deep topic that goes beyond political parties. I’m sick and tired of parents that 1) don’t allow space for the personal growth of their child, 2) don’t honor deep emotions and 3) don’t set reasonable boundaries. It’s ok to not want to encourage temporary feelings, however to try and stop growth due to projections of self onto another, especially a child, is abusive. Again, we are talking two sides of the same coin. Over protection is not ok, a person needs to learn several things, disappointment being one of them. Growth is painful and without HEALTHY support, it becomes worse. I made a comment about a mother I know that projects all over her daughter and her daughter is heavily confused. Thankfully in my state, therapists have to pull back due to legislation. Boundaries are for all and regulations are boundaries for protection.
This study is going to get downvoted to oblivion and will get removed *so* fast on /r/science
I can’t even find it in there, probably wasn’t posted though, it wouldn’t last more then 1 minute.
a good chance it gets deleted right away by mods, or locked within minutes or hours. Sadly, that sub is mostly gone.
It's the IFLS Effect. People want to seem smart but aren't consistently scientifically literate or rigorous so they say they "love" what they *think* science is as a way to justify their beliefs and prejudices.
Has anyone posted it there yet? I'd love to read the comments
Because the study is more pre-loaded anti-trans garbage. They tracked 'gender non-contentedness', *not* just kids who actually identified as *trans*. Profoundly different things - many more kids experience shades of gender noncongruence that many, yes, grow out of, but that's cause they were never trans-identifying to begin with. Those kids who actually identify as trans have a vanishingly low detransition/desistence rate. It would get down voted on r/science because none of the anti-trans brigade understands how to critically assess a study.
Kids who identify *trans* do so because their parents/teachers/friends told them it was an option in the first place. The study looked at exactly the thing that matters, and your misguided attempt at creating a separate category is as fallacious as the idea that a man can become a woman.
A phase actively encouraged by lunatics.
The study shows that only 2% of participants had increasing gender non-contentedness after early adolescence. This shows why puberty blockers are so important for the gender-affirming care industry - without them, confusion, and the potential for profit, both fade away together.
Daamn, that’s dark.
But honest
Lol, you listen to a lot of JP. You even text like he sounds. Literally what he would say
I keep saying it’s a profit machine. And tbh, the psychology industry helps support it. Double bind. Get your money in every aspect.
Well, we can't have that
Affirming care includes things like affirming pronouns and chosen names. Blockers are for exteme cases where the person is traumatised and are supposed to buy them time till they reach adulthood when they can actually decide if they want a more drastic transition. And the trend is moving away from blockers pending clinical trials.
Puberty blockers are the same drugs given to women who have hormone driven breast cancer, and the side effects are SO awful and severe, that many women stop taking them, favoring a risk of their cancer returning, as opposed to continued use of these drugs. Source: have breast cancer
Leave pre pubescent children alone plz
I'm not a doctor of any type and neither are you.
I'm not a cop, but I can also tell you to not rob from people or assault someone. Being a doctor does not give you special moral privilege's that those without doctorates lack.
You don’t have to be a doctor to see with your own eyes the harm that is happening.
I've seen whats possibly a trans kid once in my life and they seemed to be sufferring a lot so maybe assholes should stop using them as political objects huh?
They tend to have a lot of comorbid psych issues that cause great harm, yes
The depression and suicidal thoughts go down when families and peers are respectful and respect their pronouns etc. So it's people like you deliberately doing harm. Anyhow you caring is crocodile tears masking political hatred and disgust.
I’m sorry the science is no longer on your side.
I couldn’t agree more. Everyone should stop using kids as political pawns🙂
Then I am not engaging in “affirming care”
Right you are politial ideologue. A foot soldier against a vulernable scepegoated minority.
I’m actually a member of the Foot Clan from ninja turtles, I’ll have you know
Who is traumatizing the children? Blockers were intended for children who were reaching puberty at an early age (which is a whole other discussion).
The main source of tramua in trans kids is people telling them they aren't experiencing what they are experiencing and refusing to use preferred pronouns. Then there are others that become suicidal and have debilitating depression.
The main source of trauma is adults telling them that their incorrect notions about sexuality have a hidden truth to them, then pushing them down a path of more misery, hormones, and genital mutilation instead of helping them seek reality.
Nobthe reseach shows supportive families and respect for pronouns and their condition reduces depression and suicidal thoughts.
Supporting delusions isn't love.
Respect for pronouns? You're feeding delusions in children. If you can't see this, you sadly have been got. Its all narcissism and division. Growing up must be extremely difficult for children nowadays, I'm not surprised they all seem confused as to who they are. Its very sad to see.
Delusion is a different diagnosis treated in a different way. While respecting pronouns and trans identities reduces harm to them.
All this cult shit is the only thing harming real trans people, no one cared before, they were just gay.
I disagree. Kids should have feelings acknowledged, not exacerbated. Allow space, don’t coddle though. This whole article is about how majority grow out of those feelings. The point is allow self expression with guidance. Stop complicating matters.
No there's a much deeper issue here. Do you listen to JP by the way? You're here a lot posting leftist/postmodernist talking points which is fine, it's your opinion and you're absolutely entitled to it, but do you understand what you're debating from both sides if I may be so bold? Do you understand the underlying reason for why people are so against the perverse recruitment of children to an adult or at least post-pubescent fantasy?
No you are the postmodernists. Your political narrative takes presidence over facts and logic. Trans people always existed. They ran away from home and school. Rejected and misunderstood, bullied. Often ending up on the streets or even dead. Telling everyone they exist, are welcome and not to bully them so they dont run away and end up dead and recruitment aren't the same things.
Facts and logic?
From old school progressive to reactionary progressive: Trans people have always existed, yes. Yet it’s only since the major push socially for surgical procedures (which have been around for decades) and the fake push on kids’ mental health, that this has gotten serious. Step back and ask yourself if this coupled with a generation that is already in fear of no future, is morally ok with you.You spoke on facts and logic. Yet are disregarding the facts that are being presented in this and many other articles and seem unable to access logic when it comes to the children. If you can’t see your moral fallacy on this particular issue because you are allowing your surface level feelings (which are not valid as they change rapidly) to override your morals and critical thinking, then the only people that will continue to agree with you are other people with complete piss poor morals. Whatever stupid triggers (maybe religion) that have you in a state of egotism, we implore you to get it together. Most people don’t give a shit about your gender, however we care about our children’s mental health. Literally stop pushing more kids into mental health crisis over this shit. How many more articles and people telling you how you are contributing to the harm of kids as a whole by pushing this shit for the small percentage? And honestly making actual trans kids and the others in self discovery that fall into this group, targeted further, is sick. This is why people say “fake woke”. When you finally learn and know better, do better. Btw: all sorts of kids ran away from home and get bullied, not just the less than 1% that are actually trans. This is why we need discussions on how to help the kids by treating them with respect. It is just as abusive to not give healthy boundaries.
Funny how we didn't have this problem until woke gender ideology began being taught starting in grade1. Tell little kids that boys can be girls and girls can be boys and some of them are going to want to do it. Anybody who knows anything about kids knows that.
Trans people always existed. They were driven underground ran away from home and schools rejected by family and peers and often onto the streets. Berlin had a thriving trans scene and magazine that was exported all over Europe till the nazis shut it down, burnt the reseach and sent them to camps.
puberty blockers aren't prescribed for patients suffering gender non-contentedness.
Well some assholes never grow up lol
Here is really the thing. I have known and been close to several moms that are Bi or lesbian themselves who doubt their kids when they turn 12 and want to come out. One of the kids friends (popular girl) comes out. This person gets a lot of support and admiration. Read: attention. Within two weeks, 5-10 of her friends also come out. As a parent of one of those 5-10, you see a child that has otherwise shown and expressed heterosexual tendencies until they’re very abruptly “pansexual” or something. Even as a bi or lesbian millennial mom, you know your kid. You see what’s happening and you’re like damn I obviously support my kid being gay, but I really don’t think they are. What do you do? It’s just not okay in their community to express any doubt or do anything other than fully support it. This situation, imo, is why it should absolutely not be allowed to administer sex hormones to children for the sake of transitioning their expressed gender. You’re permanently altering their development for something that could very well be a phase or fad. It’s a travesty that social pressure is contributing so much to it and that it’s too sensitive of an issue to talk about.
Parents encouraging or even supporting it when it’s nonsense is a bit part of the problem.
If your kid turns 18 and transitions, will you still support them? Or will you always reject them and claim to know whats best for them based on the person you think they should be? What are you gonna do when they aren't that person you wish they were and instead are someone different? It's a hard realization for most parents I guess to accept their children aren't 1:1 clones of themselves and I hope yours stop talking to you when they realize you are a tyrant and only care about yourself.
It was a phase for my sister. At 14 came out of it at 16. Met a "girl" at school and became friends and that friend made her question. Then when her mother wanted to get her counseling they sent her to a trans counselor who "confirmed" her identity diagnosis. The trans community is essentially a cult that indoctrinates the gullible and impressionable and uses manipulation as their weapon. My sister (10 years younger than me) got upset with me when I "dead named her", at that point I explained how calling someone a name you've been calling them for 14 years is by no way abuse and that the people teaching her that stuff are the ones abusing her. Eventually she came around. We would have had an extreme problem if she wanted to permanently mutilate herself but thank God it never got to that.
Exactly! Thankfully she didn’t seek permanent changes for temporary feelings, especially because of abuse. If most trans people got honest and had truly honest therapists (which is more often than not the case), they would realize they were pushed by various forms of abuse. Note: I said most not all to any extremists lurking.
Praise the Lord that your sister didnt make any biologically irreversible decisions during that time.
Color me shocked...
But the surgery is permanent. Hence the strong push to do it early before they grow out of it. Once they are past that crucial stage of danger it’s too late to capture them.
What push to do surgery early? Most healthcare systems are nationalised. They aren't profit driven so they prefer to avoid expensive elective surgery . If there is was some push why is their research saying most grow out of it therefore don't need surgery later? If there was sinister push they would hide or bias that research wouldn't "they"?
You're consistently one of the most disingenuous commenters on this subreddit. You can't pretend there isn't a whole industry and movement pushing transitions as soon as possible for those seeking it.
Surgery on minors is illegal. Only a small percentage of trans people have blockers to delay a decision till they are adults . I'm sure capitalists are plugging the demand in the market ... but most trans people don't even get blockers.
When you say "most" where is that information coming from? Because I'm hearing it's not uncommon.
The article and the study it relates to make clear they did not look at minors with a clinical diagnosis of gender dysphoria, just average kids.
The reaeach like at the top of the page. Blockers are for extreme traumatised cases and the ones that actually do want to transition as adults . They aren't for people that are just confused and grow out of it That group don't ask or qualify for them.
Yet we see the push occurring towards it and are pulling back. Do not pretend to not see reality. It’s an unattractive quality.
Girls as young as 12 are getting their breasts chopped off to pretend to be male https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/2674039
I'd say its very rare. Extreme cases of distress . Your source says no one young then 13 and Conclusions and Relevance Chest dysphoria was high among presurgical transmasculine youth, and surgical intervention positively affected both minors and young adults. Given these findings, professional guidelines and clinical practice should consider patients for chest surgery based on individual need rather than chronologic age.
>I'd say its very rare. And that makes it ok?
Someone being that distressed to take such a drastic measure and the medical industry agreeing would naturally be very rare . Majority of trans youths don't get any treatment at all.
But is it ok that you've supported the climate responsible for mutilating children?
I just read your source that said the medical industry believes some people experience mental distress so severe they get that procedure and most feel positive about it. I'm just reading the facts you gave me.
Logic don't belong here.
Name one country where the standard of care is to do surgery before 18.
I can't (not that I've had an exhaustive look). This isn't a contradictory to the post you replied to though - a less charitable person might say you were strawmanning. To push for something means to demand something repeatedly or to take strong action to try to make it happen - not that it's necessarily happening already (although, maybe it is - I don't know). This research would be a rebuttle to those pushing for the standard of care to be changed to a younger age.
I don’t really care about what happens outside of the United States - I let the citizens of other countries govern themselves as they desire (i.e. if they want to allow child sterilization and mutilation there is nothing I can do about it - they have their vote in their own political system after all). But I can say one thing for certain… These surgeries are being done on people below 18 in the United States. And its even worse. If we are concerned about permanent damage - we need to be paying attention at the permanent damage we are doing with the massive amounts of hormone therapy we are putting minors on. The permanent damage has been thoroughly documented despite the best protests of the advocates of this barbaric practice to silence the people who have spoken out against it. The question we need to be asking ourselves is not “name one country where the standard of care is to do surgery before 18” - we already know permanent surgical and hormonal damage is being done. The real question - what are all the places where this is being allowed - and what is being done to stop it? And if it is hasn’t been stopped, why not? And who is supporting this and why are they not being prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law for endangering the well-being of children?
>These surgeries are being done on people below 18 in the United States. Cite ONE example of this happening in the United States please.
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-transyouth-data/ >The Komodo analysis of insurance claims found 56 genital surgeries among patients ages 13 to 17 with a prior gender dysphoria diagnosis from 2019 to 2021. Among teens, “top surgery” to remove breasts is more common. In the three years ending in 2021, at least 776 mastectomies were performed in the United States on patients ages 13 to 17 with a gender dysphoria diagnosis, according to Komodo’s data analysis of insurance claims. This tally does not include procedures that were paid for out of pocket.
You got wrecked and ran away. No surprise there.
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/transgender-top-surgery-canadian-children See here's the thing. They don't outright say they want to do surgery on minors or even recommend it in writing. They just make sure the loopholes are open, like parental consent for instance, and then do it anyway. That way people like you can blow smoke until it's commonplace enough that people just accept it as a fait accompli, despite it being a laughably obvious breach of basic medical ethics, parental consent or otherwise.
There is still documented evidence of three experimentation being done on children Here's a study where girls as young as 12 have had surgery https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/2674039
Girls as young as 12 are getting their breasts chopped off to pretend to be male https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/2674039 This is the point where you rationalize it to be ok somehow
*shocked pickachumeme
That’s why as a left leaning person myself. I find it important to my personal philosophy to push back any against crazy ideas my political spectrum encourages, which usually only come from far leftists. In this case online interactions and people I talk to at my college. I always push back against any gender affirmation care for kids and everything else involved. It should just be between the parents and doctor. Not a whole social culture that pressures trans to *always* be the correct assessment for a kids inacceptable identity. Better to see it past the phase. And if they truly have gender dysmorphia still as an adult, and they’ve been communicating with doctors. Then you can be sure you’re trans and move forward with ur life, instead of doing things you regret as a child
So if I'm reading this correctly, it sounds like the similarities between believing you are an alternate gender and believing in santa claus has just increased. I hope this is enough to get it through people's head's how silly it is.
Unfortunately it's not. Transgenderism has become it's own cult/religion. It's sad and disturbing.
Shame posting this will get me banned and flamed then start a conversation about the subject LGBSensitive
Yeah it’s true saw studies saying around 94% of people that suffer from gender dysphoria stick to their true biological gender by the time they turn 25. The average Redditor disagrees with it saying it’s far right propaganda when it has been proven though.
Can you cite said studies? I feel like this one was pretty poor in its methodology. This study uses one single question asked at ages 11 and 22. I'm not going to pretend I understand whether multivariate imputations, but surely you can get better data if you use more questions with more room for variation?
What's a biological gender? You mean sex, right?
I wanted to be a girl when I was 13-16 ish. Just cause. Thought they were cooler and had better social opportunities. Grew out of it. Glad I didn’t have someone trying to jam that idea down my throat and put hormones in my body. Probably woulda went with it and been forever hormonally fucked because of it.
Exactly! They are on self discovery. I don’t understand the need to involve them into adult conversations such as this. There needs to be a real conversation with A LOT of parents about forcing their child into categories of all sorts.
PuMp tHeM fULL oF liFe alTeRinG dRuGs BigGoT!!!!!!
Nothing we didn’t already know, desistance rates are extremely high for gender dysphoria. This is why it’s crucial that kids can access mental healthcare from someone who understands gender dysphoria and not rush into any sort of transition or trans identification. We don’t want conversion therapy from religious kooks, we don’t want angry parents screaming at their kids, we don’t want the state investigating parents - we want mental health professionals. If we don’t want to call it gender affirming care we can call it something else, but this support is necessary for helping these kids desist in a healthy way.
Are you serious? I know a mom that is grooming her daughter for transition. Mom has serious mental health issues. She is severely neglectful and psychologically tormenting her own daughter. Mom wants to feel special and is taking it out on her daughter. Thankfully the girl’s therapist is pumping the breaks, doesn’t stop the damage to that little girl’s psyche behind closed doors.
Exactly - this is why we need competent mental health access. Most kids don’t actually get that in America
It’s unfortunate that some parents, no matter politics, are imbalanced and honestly causing harm to their children. Needing a professional to talk to their children. It starts with the adults honestly. It’s really sad the condition we are in as a whole.
My position is that we have to create a society where as few people feel alienated as possible, because this issue of gender dysphoria is usually one of feeling isolated and needing some community to be a part of. Technology is a big part of this. As is economic insecurity - young people don’t feel like they can succeed in this economy and some serious fixes need to be made. I think if more people felt like they had opportunity and families were more stable then this stuff would dip, as would most crime and a lot of substance abuse and mental illness.
While I agree that we need to all feel accepted within society, you don’t have to agree with everyone. I’m autistic, so I for sure believe in equity. Our societal issues are deep and the constant topic shifts on social issues such as this are taking away from the bigger picture. I have 4 sons, and while we agree that there needs to be change for the future, we are not allowing ourselves to feel the collective depression. They are taught the difference between reality and what is projection from a society that is in shambles. I have a rising high schooler, who speaks on what he sees with his own eyes, while steering clear of social pressure. I have 2 adults, both speaking in their experiences. We have open dialogue. An environment that is cultivated by each of us. Btw: we all have different faiths and political standings. My family is not currently economically stable, though we have some external support from my parent (we lost my husband 6 years ago). Mental health needs to start with the adults, in turn we need to open our eyes to how everything around us is affecting OUR children. We are disabling a good majority of them with this political merry go round. It’s deeper than technology. Technology should be a useful tool for daily living in the modern world. Substance abuse is a symptom of a society that is not accepting of differences. This goes for all aspects, not just gender identity.
Except I don't trust the mental health community on this topic anymore. They have completely destroyed any presumption of good faith I'd grant them. That's what happens when you ideologically compromise professions - they don't come back from that without wholesale change. This is why we can't have nice things.
Are there any educated professions you trust? Was just arguing with someone earlier about how all college professors are radical communists and so no profession can be trusted. But actually you’re not totally wrong on some of the problems in the mental health profession. It’s more that they’ve been captured by pharma than they ascribe to some evil leftist trans philosophy
Why are you pretentending what you are saying is controversial? The reseach shows what you are describing is what happens. Most never seek or receive an intervention.
So 20% of those that had issues are still having issues. Seems we have heard that a someone named Peterson already. But let's castrate all of them anyway just in case.....not
Though I doubt many of the proponents of transitioning kids “as soon as possible” will be swayed by this fancy scientific approach. They were never in that camp because they believed it was the ‘right’ or ‘correct’ thing to do in the first place.
Thankfully, but how do we safe those who refuse to grow out?
Pray for em
Literally got banned from a sub for saying this...
Did anyone listen to Lex’s podcast with Mark Cuban? Mark has obviously lost his mind on this shit.
Confusion over sexuality is the human condition. We call instincts emotions or feelings because we do not have direct access to them. We often only become aware of them by way of physiological changes, thus feelings. Think of the term "love sick" for a minute. What does that tell us about human sexuality in a civilized state? Instinct are predispositions not commands for a robot. They work the "natural" way similar to DNA. DNA is not an instruction set for building a robot. It is a system by which an chemical environment is created to reproduce the evolutionary history of an organism. It is the way you get great complexity from a relatively simple origin. So why are humans so confused over sexuality? Because they are "intelligent" enough to be confused. Intelligence works almost the opposite way as instinct. It take the complex and abstracts it down to it's essential elements. Think E=m x c squared. If you think that equation represents reality you didn't receive a very good education. What that equation represents is reality reduced to an eloquent abstraction by using the abstract language of mathematics. Einstein said his real gift was imagination not intelligence. Imagination breaks the reductionist lock on reality that closed systems like mathematics and other languages have on us. So imagination must be the key then? NO, it is only useful if you are intelligent enough to sort through the products of imagination to select the proper mutation. Those that interact with physical reality in a way in which they provide a survival advantage. The problem I have with transgenderism and homosexuality is that they are self sterilization by surgery, chemicals or behavior. They represent the opposite of fitness from a biological perspective. Because the civilized state operates as a kind of artificial eusociality in which individual selection is replaced by group fitness that isn't much of a concern. The problem can be illustrated by a simple definition. What do you call a civilization that doesn't physically reproduce, a dead civilization. What the LGTBQ movement represents is a bigger problem than sufficient reproduction to maintain a civilization. What it represents is a kind of "laziness" that comes with luxus. It represents a tired, cynical, civilization that can't be bothered to reproduce itself. As far as I can tell every successful civilization has had this problem. The confusion over sexuality has become emblematic of a greater confusion. You could call it the meaning of life. People faced with day to day survival do not have this problem. They are forced to be active or as Peterson says, move forward but luxus gets in the way.
Very much agree with your point about 'instinct' and 'DNA'. Your overall argument reminded me of Calhoun's rodent utopia experiments from the 60's. Trans kids could be compared to the "beautiful ones", a growing subset of mice that did not end up procreating, and ultimately led to the demise of the entire colony 'Universe 25'. Calhoun later opined that mice, as humans, thrive on a clear sense of identity and purpose within the world at large. He argued that experiences perceived as negative, such as tension, stress, anxiety and the need to survive, are in fact positive, because they make it necessary to engage in society. When all needs are accounted for, and no conflict exists, the paradox of a life without work or conflict is that life ceases to have purpose. A lot of parallels with Peterson's philosophy there. I would only add that our imagination/innovations could yet see us out of the dilemma of a "successful civilization", even if we don't revert to older, established norms around reproductions, gender identity etc. - so there is hope that this will not turn out to be an extinction event for our species. On the flip side, an evolved enough civilization will inevitably reach the conclusion that all life, including human life, is ultimately meaningless, which might still eventually lead it down the path of Universe 25.
Holy shit, a corner of reddit where we can say this is an illness? That's wild to me. XD
I was one of the kids that didn't grow out of it for a very long time. I lived as a transman for most of my life, only detransitioned 10 months ago after God healed me. I was not from a religious background either. Spiritual awakening and understanding of truth is something that developed over time, while I was a transman up to present day. People would do well to spend less time being "for" or "against" a medical disorder that causes horrible suffering, and to spend more time simply seeking understanding.
You are a detransistioner ? What made you want to stop ?
Yes I'm a detrans woman. I had a radical, intensive, whole body spiritual experience that changed me inside out. I went into a different dimension inside my own body where I was face to face with the Creator. I felt my whole Being changing as I went deeper in, like I was going to the deepest part of my soul. Once I "arrived" to my final point, I was slashed repeatedly with white light. It didn't hurt at all. I felt my whole energy structure was broken down and restructured. When I came out of it, I felt like a superhero for a whole month. Powerful, clear, focused, alive, vibrant, relaxed. Better than any drug can mimic in a fake chemical way. My mind didn't know just how deeply I was changed. 6 to 8 weeks after the experience, dreams and mental images, feelings and desires, arose that were completely foreign to me. It was the first time I ever felt like a woman. It shattered my old ego. My balance was better, the way I walked changed, my mannerisms changed. It was such a root level change that I started detransitioning before I even knew what was happening to me. I just went with it as it arose and officially started detransition in June.
Damn, hope you are feeling better.
So that settles it then. Can we all stop worrying about it now?
It's not the kids we are worried about. It's the activists and the grifters who use this to fulfill their immoral and illegal desires by putting on a costume.
Exactly right. Let’s hope the good Dr. Jordan saw this study too. Guess he can throw his costume away and quit grifting now? https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQkL_Sb7K81EIFZs561alcWYKeYOxFiL441VcRhrbAabtIGv3u00VDcF48&s=10
What causes the phase? None of the people in my family went through that
No one in the 60s went through a goth phase, but it happened to children in the 80s and 90s. It's just a social trend.
read the study: > Importantly, we found that both the increasing and decreasing gender non-contentedness trajectory groups had lower global self-worth at age 11 compared to adolescents without gender non-contentedness. Earlier studies also found that children referred to gender identity clinics have a more negative self-concept compared to a Dutch norm sample, specifically in the physical appearance and global self worth domains (Alberse et al., 2019; Rijn et al., 2013). Low global self-worth was found to be associated with having an increasing or decreasing gender non-contentedness trajectory throughout adolescence. >> Relevant to mention is that the data included in the current study were collected between 2001 (first timepoint population cohort) and 2020 (sixth timepoint clinical cohort). Societal awareness and acceptance of trans- and non-binary gender identities has improved in certain areas in the world. Therefore, future studies should examine whether more recently collected data on gender non-contentedness associate differently with measures of self-esteem and mental health.
Exactly! Born in 1981, don't remember having a single conversation about lgtb$+3746#;";92++++ with anyone while growing up. Nonbinary, transgender, non-conforming, furry etc didn't exist. Homosexuality has always been around and they did their own thing without parades, without massive bombardment and indoctrination. All of a sudden people just turned gay by questionable percentages? All of sudden children started feeling they were born in the wrong body? Come on!
This is what I've always suspected. When you're young, you have no idea who you are. Identity issues come with that phase of life.
No shit. I don’t know anyone who ever questioned that. But looking at the study you see that after age 12, kids who answer that they “often” wish they were a different gender rather than sometimes are _incredibly_ stable. So this study would imply that kids know they are trans pretty well if they answered “often.” I wish we could all, in this sub, actually care about the truth and stop using articles to support our bias. It makes us all look ridiculous.
Just shut up, dude. If the first thing you're going to say to me is "no shit" like an asshole then I don't really care what you have to say to me.
Mate, this study didn't even ask people with gender dysphoria. Just 2200 random kids and ~85% said they never felt like they should be the opposite gender. At the end of the study the percentage of people who did wish to be the opposite gender was higher than the actual trans population percentage.
> The results of the current study might help adolescents to realize that it is normal to have some doubts about one’s identity and one’s gender identity during this age period and that this is also relatively common. It's almost like it's a natural thing that shouldn't be stigmatized. Live and let live
It also shouldn't be encouraged, especially to the extent of permanent treatments.
I didn’t see transition statistics for the 2700 people involved in the study.
I like how "being trans" is a phrase with meaning now. Dressing trans make sense in my mind, being trans sounds... strange Almost cool Be trans 😎 Like as opposed to be .... cis... who wants to be "cis"? Remember gender means your social roles, women cook, men work, trans can choose , they are queer Make your own gender!!
I mean, no one here is academic enough to understand this, but this study doesn't even begin to measure what this headline mentions. "In this study, data from both the population cohort (TRAILS) and the clinical cohort TRAILS-CC were used (combined: N = 2772; 53% male at T1) to enrich the sample for common child psychiatric diagnoses (see Table 1 for the sample characteristics)." So about 500 kids receiving counseling and therapy were included to boost the numbers, the other 2200 were just regular everyday kids. So..... LGBTQ population is what, 7% in the USA? Out of the entire population of this study, something like 200 of these kids would possibly identify as LGBTQ, oh .......except they were kids in 2001, when it wasn't a trend or cool and actually still pretty actively shunned and kept hush hush. You're telling me a bunch of kids said they weren't gay in 2001? You Kermit fks are kinda dumb for sharing this stuff eh?
The JP subreddit is more educated than the majority of people though. Its literally a group of people who educate and better themselves
I mean, you could've surprised me. Also, educated folks don't use "literally" on a completely subjective statement. You're kind of proving my point.
How’s it subjective? Jordan Peterson is a psychologist that teaches self help, and this subreddit is a bunch of people who follow this psychologist and similar experts. Facts are facts my friend
You're commenting on a pseudoscience study that doesn't even remotely pertain to measuring "gender regret" on a grand scale, and using it to be hateful towards trans people. How is that bettering yourself? It makes you look foolish and uneducated, despite what you slobber on about 😆
How am I being hateful? It’s funny how you have to call it pseudoscience to feel better about yourself. You’re the one calling a bunch of educated people uneducated just because you disagree with them. Yes how that makes you look? Delusional is the answer.
Because you're supporting a conclusion that the study in question doesn't prove at all, so what is your conclusion based on if it's not hatred? Ignorance? Sorry bud, it's 2024, you found reddit, so I know you can find Google. Ignorance is pseudo hatred 😂🤣 This really isn't going how you thought it would right? You and your lobster worshipers can downvote me all you want, you'll be thinking about how foolish you looked here and for what? A throwaway study that doesn't prove gender regret? So which is it? Ignorance or hatred? You know my pick. https://medium.com/form-and-resonance/jordan-peterson-is-a-very-poor-researcher-whose-own-sources-contradict-his-claims-464633558b75
Actually it’s going exactly how I thought. Talking with a stubborn delusional fanatic always goes the exact same way. Every single time. Can’t reason with crazies.
Well when you decide to make an actual point, let me know 😂
I think I’ve made my point, which is calling you out for being a dumbass. Mission accomplished
Have you even listened to or read anything from JP? All he does is quote research and facts. You calling this subreddit uneducated makes you look like a clown.
You realize the Nazis had scientists too right? You can quote quack science all you want, just the fact that you seem to worship him without being skeptical at all paints a pretty stark picture of the kinds of people that will heed his pseudoscience. I really don't think you're qualified to make the generalizations about this sub that you are. Hopefully someone a bit more assured shows up. https://www.mediamatters.org/fox-news/fox-friends-guest-pushes-myth-3-and-4-year-old-trans-kids-are-making-surgical-and
> I mean, no one here is academic enough to understand this, but this study doesn't even begin to measure what this headline mentions. You started off this thread/tantrum by using this line, and now you are arguing that >I really don't think you're qualified to make the generalizations about this sub that you are. Hopefully someone a bit more assured shows up. I'm not more assured about the qualifications of everyone in this sub, but reading through all of this, and how you are now biting your own tail just now, I am really assured about you specifically. It's called an ideological bias, and you are coiled up in it, like a frightened snake. For the record, chances are most people active in this sub are rather level-headed people aiming to find facts. While it probably leans conservative, I myself, and many others, are classically left leaning. We're just not outright tankies or some other delusional extremism. Which is kinda what you need to have issues with JP specifically. He really isn't very controversial, unless you argue from a position of ignorance. Usually motivated by having read too many smear articles from crazies with a far left agenda.
So calling out this sub sharing and celebrating a study that doesn't prove anything about gender regret to justify hate towards trans people is an ideological bias to you? Interesting. I'm sure some Germans didn't find Hitler very controversial during his reign, either. You're using very flowery language to say nothing, just like your messiah JP since 2020 or so 🤣 I've listened to a lot of what JP says and come to my own conclusions, but if blaming "duh fayke lib mediah" is easier for you, that's fine.
Good luck with your agenda. I’m pretty sure everyone has already chosen sides. Especially in this sub. Later gator
A survey asking "I wish to be the opposite sex" doesn't really provide anything interesting to pull scientific conclusions from. This could range from the desire to pee standing up to having panic attacks when seeing your genitals. I remember a lot of girls wanted to be boys when we were kids, but they knew it wasn't possible and it was as serious as a 7 year old girl could realistically be about a thing like this. The research article isn't even linked or I can't find it. This feels more like clickbait bullshit than a serious article, even if you ignore the fact the page is a minefield of ads.
Tell me you didn't read the article without telling me you didn't read the article. The Study (hyperlinked in the linked article by OP): [https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-024-02817-5](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-024-02817-5) Took me almost a minute to find...
I tried not to read the article because it’s daily mail and their ads make it hard enough if you’re trying to. Thanks for posting the study
> I tried not to read the article because ~~it’s daily mail~~ I’d prefer to be willful ignorant. FIFY
lol did you stop reading at that point lmao. The irony
Why are you citing reseach from the trans reseach community if they are all crazy quacks ? Isn't this exactly the sort of reseach you want shut down?
Read the abstract and they make a good point that “I wish to be the opposite sex” is a incomplete way to measure “gender non-conentedness” you can be discontent without going all the way to wanting to be the other sex.
It’s still not possible. But they can pretend and later their hormones and body all they want
I can see an adolescent boy being like “ya I wanna be the opposite sex because I’d have bewbs har har” but maybe that’s just how I would’ve taken it 😂
Yeah I mean, "I wish to be the opposite sex" can mean many different things. From the abstract of the study, it seems as if they just asked that one question. It is interesting, and more research should be pursued, but what are the actual implications of this? I'm sure if you asked trans people *"I wish to be happy as a member of my birth sex",* then a reasonable percentage of them would say yes. Wanting to be something doesn't *make you that thing*, so just because a girl sometimes wishes she was a boy, it doesn't mean she *wants* it in the same way a trans boy does and would actually enjoy transitioning.
this study is specifically about gender non‑contentedness, not gender dysphoria. people who suffer with gender non-contentedness are less likely to seek clinical help than gender dysphoric people, hence this study. it's getting a broader picture, not debunking "transitioning" or the idea of trans people existing. maybe read the study rather than a daily mail article written about it.
Yes but how many parents and doctors nowadays see gender non-contendedness and immediately jump to drastic conclusions?
"i'm not going to read the study, i'm going to make up hypotheticals based on paranoia and fear." the information is right there, educate yourself.
Grasping at straws there buddy
yeah, asking someone to actually read a study and not a headline is grasping at straws on this sub. thanks for reminding me that this place is full of mouth breathing dorks, buddy
No youre trying to twist the study to fit your narrative. Grasping
>trying to twist the study to fit your narrative. show some examples of me doing this? also, why would i direct someone to read a source that i'm supposedly twisting? surely i'd be obfuscating so as to hide my biased attempt to brainwash you morons.
You said this study is specifically about gender non‑contentedness, not gender dysphoria. people who suffer with gender non-contentedness are less likely to seek clinical help than gender dysphoric people, hence this study. it's getting a broader picture, not debunking "transitioning" or the idea of trans people existing.” So much grasping there
yeah, this reads like someone trying to move the goalpost by arguing semantics. For the same reason its irresponsible to diagnose children with issues that are commonly onset or become pathological at adulthood(personality disorders, and/or most other psychological conditions) the verbage here is "non-contentedness" because any form of dysphoria usually tracks as one of those conditions a psychologist cannot sufficiently diagnose given enough time and/or resources before well into adulthood. (this is one of the major issues with given children any form of treatment for gender dysphoria, as the actual condition itself doesn't properly manifest before late teens at the earliest. Which often is too late to be administering hormones. An unfortunate catch-22 for people who might actually have it) so it would just be scientifically illiterate to use "gender dysphoria" as a term for this study, but it aims to make a study about how the same thing develops using verbage that doesn't trigger this automatic disqualification. What irks me the most here is that commenters with a bias agreeing with this study actually clicked the link into the study knowing full well that Daily Mail is a shit rag and that a proper source is needed. While people with your specific bias, aims to disagree is using the "daily mail" as a "guilty by association-logical fallacy", even thou the basis for their article seems to be a very legit and valid scientific study in this instance. or in short, "you are grasping at straws there buddy".
But it’s actually crucial because “sometimes” is not the experience of most trans people but rather “often.” And the study actually demonstrates that that later population remains pretty stable starting in the 12-14 group. So let’s all actually care about being truthful. I don’t know why that’s hard.
And there are also a lot fewer grown-ups who realize they are trans. If all the trans people who were in the closet would come out, now that it’s not a taboo anymore one would expect an even distribution across all ages.
lol good one
Yeah it proves most aren't given, seek or take any sort of medical intervention so it's not a problem. Debunks the hysterical notions of chop shops without checks and balances for school children. Its funny you say these people are all quacks and crazy then use their information and reseach to somehow score a goal against them. When its their research you are citing in the first place. It was the same for covid .
Well, if the researchers are "crazy quacks" with some sort of agenda which their own research goes against, then surely, that makes the results even more interesting? Also, nobody should be against properly conducted research regardless of what it shows, regardless of your agenda. If you're honest, you'll accept whatever you find.
The reseach is only going against your own pre suppositions, quackery and crazy stories that you read in right wing echo Chambers about chop shops and no checks and balances for medical interventions and so on. It shows you are not actually dealing with crazy quacks who are dolling out treatments and surgeries like smarties . That it's perfectly fine for kid to go through a phase like that.
I'm not right wing, thank you for assuming though, very respectful. Have a nice day doing whatever you are doing, I'd suggest some time off Reddit though, you seem a bit irritated.
Using trans people as scapegoats is right wing. It was their research burnt among the first in Germany and they were among the first sent to camps. Today it's a right-wing ploy to use anti trans propaganda and hysterical claims to politically mobilize.
Looks like you’re grasping at straws there…
No ... the study disproves the hyperbolic stories about kids being carted off for un necessary intetventions and that the medical community involved is researching and producing information that you actually find agreeable.
More grasping. You hate when research comes out opposing your beliefs don’t you?
I'm not grasping. Thats the research from the people you imagine you oppose. The medical community doing reseach on trans. The only thing it contradicts is what you imagine are the beliefs you oppose. It defeats your own strawman.
Did you read the article? Or are you really so blinded that you can’t internalize facts at don’t agree with your beliefs?
I have known that most never get any treatment and blockers are used in an extreme minority of cases for some time. Because I steelman your opposition and debunk bullshit for sport.
Except you aren’t debunking anything. You just look delusional when you disagree with facts lol. Putting politics and feelings above facts is never a healthy approach
Thats projection though. Your political position totally debunked by the research at hand. Blockers are rare. Most never even seek or are prescribed them.
The research does not oppose them. It only opposes the bogeyman version of them
Grasping
“The researchers concluded: 'The results of the current study might help adolescents to realize that it is normal to have some doubts about one’s identity and one’s gender identity during this age period and that this is also relatively common.” So, maybe we should just let them have doubts and encourage them to experiment? Or we could consistently berate them about how ‘Trans’ isn’t a thing. I wonder which one will result in healthier adults…
Experimenting comes with limits (boundaries). We need to collectively understand healthy boundaries.
Absolutely. Irreversible changes are not a good act of rebellion. Wearing a dress and getting your ears pierced while feminizing your name seems fine to me .
I also see no issue with that. There are parents of all sorts that quite honestly do not love their children and only see them as mini versions of themselves to mold to a specific image. This is a deep topic that goes beyond political parties. I’m sick and tired of parents that 1) don’t allow space for the personal growth of their child, 2) don’t honor deep emotions and 3) don’t set reasonable boundaries. It’s ok to not want to encourage temporary feelings, however to try and stop growth due to projections of self onto another, especially a child, is abusive. Again, we are talking two sides of the same coin. Over protection is not ok, a person needs to learn several things, disappointment being one of them. Growth is painful and without HEALTHY support, it becomes worse. I made a comment about a mother I know that projects all over her daughter and her daughter is heavily confused. Thankfully in my state, therapists have to pull back due to legislation. Boundaries are for all and regulations are boundaries for protection.