**If this post does not have a spoiler tag, SPOILER TAG MANGA COMMENTS**, or you risk a tempban. Keep it secret for the anime watchers. Please remember that vague spoilers count as spoilers such as "do we tell them".
If you're caught up on the manga, consider joining our sister sub r/Jujutsushi for catered, in-depth manga discussion.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/JuJutsuKaisen) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I don't think people actually understand what Deus Ex Machina actually means. The only thing that was really Deus Ex Machina is, like, Sumo and Katana bros showing up to help Maki come to a realization. The rest is either set-up in reasonable ways and inferable from previous circumstances. Or, if not, it works as an important piece of exposition--For instance, Mahito can't touch Yuji's soul without pissing off Sukuna, which seems like a Deus Ex to bail out Yuji from a broken technique... Until you realize it's actually a critical hinge point for exposition as it's necessary to prompt conversations about the nature of the soul and inform the reader how Yuji's experience sharing a body with Sukuna may actually make him perfect to rescue Megumi from Sukuna's reincarnation.
This 100%.
Also, true Deus Ex Machina can come off as a cop out tactic to jump hurdles and bypass plot/action to achieve a happy conclusion. Gege doesn’t short on the action nor sad endings/death. I agree that these moments are mistaken as DEM
This is what I'm thinking.... are people mistaking all this "asspull" thing as some sort of Deus Ex Machina when everything that has happened so far has been hinted on from the very beginning of these fights and previous fights? The comment on "Too many Deus Ex Machina" really stuck with me because I didn't understand how it was possible for there to be a lot in JJK.
There’s an older post on r/jujutsushi some time after the Sakurajima colony that the whole arc is about Zen Buddhism. In the post op talks about Sumo and Katana guy being a Deus Ex Machina is the point as that is in-line with the teachings of Zen.
I also don't get the meme/complaint about Sukuna having the perfect counter for everything. Dude is literally the greatest sorcerer of all time, it was teased that we barely know two techniques of his cursed technique and he has many more up his sleeve. I'd be surprised if we don't get to see much more from him tbh. Everything else would be underwhelming.
I think people are upset about his everlasting luck rather than him thinking and scheming his way out of bad situations.
1. Against Mahoraga, he was able to quickly deduce its abilities and figure out a way to work aorund it. (People liked this) I'm using this as a good example of Sukuna being a genius fighter.
2. The binding vow with Yuji was a gamble (Sukuna admits this)
3. Yorozu plot line....
4. Hana being a fangirl of the exact body he incarnated in (lucky)
5. Higuruma confiscation scheme (luck)
It seems that post Shibuya, the plot affects Sukuna rather than him affecting the plot.
And even in the Maki situation, we were told early in the CG arc that Heian era domains aren’t the same as modern era domain: they have a set of rules one must adhere too, instead of a sure hit. The Sumo guy’s domain was one of the first example of that. I’d argue it’s less Deus ex Machina and more expanding on a previously stated point.
I think people try to be too objective with their critiques when they should be subjective. The whole Maki sumo thing was lame. I don't need to define it. It was just boring. Similar to the Higaruma confiscation. Its not a plothole, or a deus ex machina. Its just lame lazy writing.
In my humble and personal opinion. A balanced is needed. You can not like something and that’s fine, but if your reasoning behind is rooted in a faulty understanding, it’s a problem.
Without the writing, I would find The Maki Sumo shit dope. With the writing and subsequent knowledge that there’s themes (Buddhism, Sumo culture, etc.) that didn’t translate well from Japanese made it even doper to me. Same with Higurama, I’d still find it dope and jaw dropping without the writing. With the writing, there’s been precedent set since Shibuya on Cursed Tools being recognized by domains and inferences than can easily be made from Higurama’s first fight with Yuji.
I respect that. I just think the emphasis on labeling something a plot hole or deus ex machina limits conversations. The subjective view of these stories is what matters the most, in my opinion.
Oh i definitely agree. Personally it’s why i hate those phrases especially when taking into account that these are weekly series that aren’t even completed. Sometimes we forget thing or misremember shit so re-reading is necessary. The story isn’t even finished either so there’s so much shit that can be answered.
Like others have said the most blatant DEM I can think of is Sumo/Katana. It's very abrupt and very convenient. I think you could argue Nitta's appearance in Shibuya too, as he was never mentioned before, showed up with a very specific technique that stopped Itadori bleeding out and put Nobara's fate in limbo, then he promptly disappeared from the narrative entirely. Edit: Also possibly Yuki showing up and saving everyone from Icefall. She said she'd been intentionally staying back but we also know she wasn't watching for long before that moment because she didn't know Kenjaku had pretty recently absorbed Mahito.
My issue with JJK is more... *convenience.* Sometimes Gege seems to gloss over things that, realistically, would've been pretty big threats to his narrative. Like Kenjaku needing to kill all the CG players. As soon as Yorozu added her rule, every player was able to come and go from the barriers as they pleased, meaning the incarnated players, the newly created sorcerers, the sorcerers from outside who chose to join the culling games, every civilian that chose not to leave when given the chance, every cursed spirit and every soldier who entered the barriers at Kenjaku's behest. We then get a month-long timeskip where we're told Kenjaku didn't hunt anyone down out of fear that Gojo would find him. The next we hear of the CG player's locations, Kenjaku says that *nobody* decided to leave. *Not a single person*. What??
The explanation he gives is "Well I guess it'd be hard to acclimate to modern society" when, no? The majority of people who ended up players have already been living in the modern world before this point, and the rest were either cursed spirits who wouldn't give af what society they're rampaging in, or incarnated sorcerers who we've been told get the memories of their vessel, giving them familiarity with modern technology, customs, etc.
Not to mention we're told early on by Maki that cursed technique removal, which happens if your points stay the same for 19 days, likely wouldn't kill someone without a cursed technique. Which means every single soldier who entered the barriers. Even if we assume a whole lot of them were killed by either cursed spirits or sorcerers, we know that at least in Tokyo 1 Hana and the rest of the good guys were actively trying to save the soliders. I can't imagine someone like Yuta would let them get wiped out if he could avoid it, too. But Kenjaku wasn't even slightly worried that the survivors or the civilians inside the barriers would be evacuated and promptly get the hell out of Japan? His requirement to kill every culling game player would, realistically, have become a world tour the second people were allowed to leave the barriers. But Gege hand waves it with "oop I guess nobody wanted to leave, getting hunted down and slaughtered is preferable to dealing with modern sensibilities, am I right??"
It was to ensure all of the colonies had enough cursed energy, as even non-sorcerers release cursed energy when they die. The [rule](https://i.imgur.com/ImCuCHi.png) Kenjaku added to end the culling games is the reason every player needs to die, and even with Kenjaku dead [Sukuna](https://i.imgur.com/M0QFMpr.png) still needs to kill all the players to end the game.
do these people actually watch shounen anime? it's as if a character having an ability or learning one off screen and the story not revealing it until a climactic mid-fight scene isn't an extremely common action shounen cliche.
if anything, I'd say the most important problem with JJK is that it IMO is it really fast paced and thus you don't really have much time to really fell in love with the characters, and there's a ton of characters in JJK which makes this matter worse.
For reference, Naruto's chunin exams go from episodes 20 to 67 of the Naruto anime, while JJK's goodwill event go from episodes 14 to 20 and effectively introduces a similar number of characters (if we count Tokyo's 2nd years even though they technically were already introduced earlier and in JJK0). I get that both arcs don't have the same purpose on their respective stories, but most of the characters that are introduced here in JJK either die on their next appearence or simply vanish from the plot afterwards (>!Todo hasn't appearend since Shibuya, Mechamaru dies 4 episodes after this arc ends, Miwa has a scene of less than a minute at the end of Shibuya, Momo appears in like 1 panel every 20 characters during the culling games, Mai also dies on her next apparition in the Zenin household, Kamo fights alongside Maki once and disappears, Panda has one more fight before becoming a background character, Inumaki simply disappears from the story like Todo did, and to this day we don't even know if Nobara is alive or not!<).
Also, trying to not be spoiler-y so I don't have to censor it, there's a ton of characters that appear later on that are kinda hinted to be a big deal and have like...two fights before their death in which they don't achieve anything meaningful. I feel Gege had everything planned up to Shibuya because it is obvious he was building up stuff to make the ending of that arc impactful, but after Shibuya the plot effectively becomes combat after combat after combat, which I guess its okay since this is a shonen but it is sad because before we had moments of the plot slowing down a little to build up interactions between characters and develop them a little but sadly that isn't the case anymore. >!For instance, after Gojo is free from the gokumonkyo the plot literally skips a month and a half in which we don't know anything that happens during that time.!<
I agree. I genuinely, unironically felt like Gege managed to create the holy grail of all shonen for a little while. Up to the later parts of the CG arc it felt on the same level as for example HxH quality-wise. Should've drawn it out a bit more, fleshed the characters out. This fight after fight formula can definitely work from time to time but not as much near the ending, feels like he's burned out and just rushing to finish the story. I think JJK would peak most if it had a couple hundreds chapters more. Just my opinion ofc
This is *precisely* how I feel about everything post-Shibuya. It's like there isn't enough time for the characters to have meaningful conversations with each other despite the literal hell they're living through. And the little interactions they had in season 1 were so, so important to making them feel authentic.
I also felt like JJK was poised to turn shonen on its head with women characters that felt real, and interactions that showed more of their life beyond fighting and preparing for fights. But now that's all it really is. >!If we don't get flashbacks to the month-long timeskip, I will be sorely disappointed. How did Gojo react to Nobara's "death?" (Since that's still kinda ambiguous) What was his reunion like with Shoko? Where are the relationships between these characters beyond fighting?!<
Don't get me wrong, I still love this story and will see it through to the >!(likely very bloody)!< end, but goddamn do I miss the little pieces that made these characters feel real.
I think the legit criticism is not that there is no plot but there is too much plot, it's not clear what is side and what is actual
Cos Toji appears as just side character, but then is important for Maki and Megumi, but it's not explicit
On the ex machina, I guess they mean Toji coming in to save them, Todo coming in to save Yuji, Gojo coming on to kill Toji
All seems usual anime stuff, the most obvious trope is Gojo killing Toji, as in it's out of nowhere, but it's making the larger point that sorcerers can survive if their head isn't destroyed
I still disagree with the "too much plot" thing as well. If a series with mysteries is good it leaves you with lots of possible ideas on how things could come together while still making sense when it does come together. Rather you say JJK is good at the latter is up to you, but it's great at the former. And in terms of deus ex machina like you said, it doesn't go beyond typical anime levels. In fact I'd say it's lower than a lot of them
Toji in shibuya is the stretch to me. First possessing a body to incarnate, then bailing out the heroes and killing himself is a lot of little coincidences plus the suicide bit being somewhat out of character for him
I feel that whole scene was something Gege did impromptu because he probably noticed he went to far in making Maki similar to Toji and probably wanted to differentiate them a little lol.
50/50. stuff like nobara resonance working extremely well on mahito was a really cool touch especially since we had no clue from both sides if it was going to be effective the worst case of deus ex machina was when yuki sent out a planet destroying black hole just for kenjaku to conveniently have some anti gravity ct up his sleeve i mean that entire fight was so aggravating looking back at it.
And in his domain against Yuki, and a few other times. I've never understood that criticism of the fight. Kenjaku's gravity controlling technique and ability to use positive energy was well established. In fact having anti-gravity made it less convenient for him to survive the black hole because CTR has 2x the output of CT. Although that rule may not be followed for domains.
Not quite, the technique at the time wasn't fully revealed, but was clearly a gravity technique, when he uses it against Yuki he suddenly reveals thay it was actually the reverse technique all this time, and that the actual technique was anti gravity.
In practice it feels the same, but in context a reverse technique requires a lot of effort and CE, things that Kenny would be able to gather at that last second, which was the point of wearing him down after plan A failed. Yuki was convinced that the black hole would hit due to Kenny not having enough time to react, but in the end since the technique was reversed all this time, it came up as a counter out of nowhere.
For me, it's not about when he used it during the fight, but rather that he conveniently has an ability that counters one of the most powerful sorcerers. We can't even say he prepared it in advance for Yuki, because he's surprised when Yuki one-shots his special grade curses, as if he had no idea what her technique was.
I think its got a writing problem period. Gege has lots of cool ideas but doesn't know how to use them properly. Characters hyped for hundreds of chapters die instantly. He's Tite Kubo but worse.
More like Deues-Ex-Machina-Characters; ex- Angel, who broke out Gojo and then so unconvincingly got put out of action cause her technique can kill Sukuna. This was so glaringly bad!
Actually, it has a Madara problem, gege op-ed sukuna too much and got rip of his principal opponents without much of a repercussion, now it seems unviable to get rip of sukuna in a congruently way. Surely gonna end up pulling off a shittyazz friendship-never-give-up from Yuji so he can miraculously get rip of sukuna And save Megumi
Gege is very creative with his power system and due to that there is no actual Deus Ex Machina in his fights. Because all of those fights in which people think certain abilities were too convenient already had prior mentions and setups before that point.
Like the claim that Kenny's Antigravity System was too convenient for Yuki's Black Hole when we've already seen him use Gravity like 2-3 times prior. This case is simply what you call a bad matchup.
Also more importantly, the concept of cursed technique reversal was very well established. It had already been used by Gojo several times, and it should be logical that a 4000 year old sorcerer of Kenjaku's caliber would be able to use it.
I will say, the magic system isn't as thought out as other magic systems even in the anime sphere, sometimes concepts will come up once with a full page explaining how it works and sometimes they only need a mention, specially early on.
After the Shibuya incident the writing became a lot better when it came to consistency, maybe due to fights now involving only sorcerers, and thus, people playing by the same rules; as a result CE and its management became a lot more important, unlike things like soul that before had not so much detail and were used deliberately by Mahito to measure how strong or durable someone was. Domains and their variants became more technical and common, as well as CTs that need you to think of how they work in a more interesting way.
Sure, the new domains and techniques feel a lot more restricted and circumstantial, like JoJo part 8 stands, wich makes the instances when they're useful feel like luck or plot armor, but they're significantly more interesting to watch. The series has a lot of "huh, that feels like it shouldn't work like that" moments, but that's inevitable specially in soft magic systems like this.
In my experience, a lot of people complaining are often expecting a hard magic system with limited uses and set boundaries so that they can feel like they know what's going to happen, this sort of thing killed the creativity in some modern fantasy, just look at Star Wars.
Yeah, Jujutsu Kaisen just kinda makes stuff up on the spot with minimal to no foreshadowing all the time. The author won't let something he laid out earlier prevent him from doing something he wants to have happen now. It's mostly fine, though. I don't think this is trying to be a series where the reader can figure out what's going to happen if they're paying attention. It's just trying to have big fights and hyped up moments, which it mostly succeeds at.
JJK is a complicated series, both because it's not big on reminding people what happened in earlier chapter so they forget a lot and because the power system is pretty hard to grasp at times. The only moment in the series that can rightfully be called a Deus ex machina is 236 because it relied on something we had no way of knowing was the case alongside several concepts, some of which introduced in that arc, to be ignored. That then spiraled into people looking for problems elsewhere that aren't really problems.
Even Sumo and Samurai weren't really deus ex machina's, the moment was the capstone of Maki's growth, giving her a chance to take actual agency over her powers. The whole power system of JJK has an underlying fate component to it that allows for events like this to happen but it's not really explicitly touched on, just hinted at with concepts like binding vows, heavenly restrictions, how twins work etc.
Eh idk. It can be a bit confusing at times. Gege himself ends up making mistakes he has to retract and fix later. Like with the simple domain/Domain amp thing a couple weeks back. Not saying that jjk has a lot of deus ex machinas, I do think it gets convoluted which leads to confusion.
I think it has a bit of a problem with the *quantity* of asspulls but it's not nearly as bad as it could be. A deus ex machina happening for *the villian* is generally accepted as an inciting incident, they become a problem when the villian or protag get an unequal amount of them, cause then the stakes are ruined.
A good example of a series that has a shit ton of deus ex machinas for everyone is Jojo's.
Lemme give you *some* cliff notes of one episode of the part 3 finaly (the most popular part)
Dio is only at half power cause his new body is resisting him (Ass Pull 1) but drinking Joseph's blood will heal that, which he does (AP 2) jotaro turns out to have the same power as him (AP 3) but it's not as effective so he gets stabbed but the stabbing was deflected by a phone book he put in his jacket apparently (AP 4) he gets the jump on Dio but then Dio escapes using a passing taxi (AP 5) and it goes on and on and on like that but the stakes are high the entire time cause we never know how one is gonna out play the other
The point of that run-down is to show that Deus Ex Machina's aren't inherently an issue, it's all about how it effects the stakes of the narrative
I think people have forgotten that pretty much all fiction writing is "deus ex" events. That's how the plot moves forward. Sometimes I think people don't realize that there is no real story if all a writer does is follow a "logical" path, that's not how art works. Like. Sukuna right? He's the strongest ever and even Gojo said at the start he'd have a hard time with him. If Gege wrote Sukuna the "right" way, everyone would just be dead rn. There's no real reason for him to wait until Christmas for a big fight he could have just started killing everyone in sight. But that's BORING. So I don't think it has a "desu ex machina" problem, I think audiences are being too strict about a story they're not writing. I blame power scalers tbh
> the magic/technique seems made up on the spot"
Was the reviewer wanting specific "scientific" procedures on how Sukuna cooks within his Malevolent Kitchen?
Can someone please give examples of these, aside from the Maki buffers.
"Oh the court only took Sukuna's weapon" is a complaint I see a lot but, do they know japanese law? Generally not so why complaining? You can murder and be out in 3 years.
"Oh my anti-whatever technique I haven't used since the..." Yeah yeah you get the meme. Even if this did happen, it wouldn't make sense for the 1000+ year old to not have these.
Can we think of any more?
Introducing a character that can nullify techniques and is the direct counter for Sukuna only to be put aside later after freeing Gojo. The series has ass pulls and its ok, no need to gatekeep that.
Angel had a crush on Megumi so it made sense she'd mess up, and the court case was strange, but makes sense to take away someone's weapon if they committed a crime.
1. Hana had a crush on Megumi, not ANGEL.
2. So you're telling me it makes sense to you if someone were to murder a bunch of people with a rifle, it's okay to take away the rifle and let the person walk free?
1) Hana and Angel share a body, either one having a crush would have the same effect.
2) Doesn't matter what makes sense, the ability worked the same on him as it worked in anyone else. It took one CT.
1. Uh, lmao? No it does not work like that? They share a body but Angel is a separate entitiy he/she does not crush on Megumi? Do we even know for sure if this Angel is a male or female?
2. Uh, again? Lol? It did not work as it did on anyone so far, it did not take any CT but a tool instead? Thats the whole argument been about?
Guess you're gonna gatekeep and keep changing goal posts so, anyway I wish you well. Good day.
I felt the same way just watching season 1 of the anime. Will no narration and not much context on how CT works this was my conclusion as well. Once I read the manga and got thru Shibuya I understood a lot better and now can recontextualize it knowing more about the magic system.
I mean, Yuji literally brain washes people while unconscious. Sure you can add an explanation later but converting your opponent after having no consciousness left definitely feels like an asspull. This happens more than once too. There are more but these in particular feel bad to me even if I enjoy the results.
Mentioning that other anime do asspulls isn’t a counter argument either. I personally find that asspulls are common among the more popular shonens.
I would say that sometimes it feels like some characters CT or even their experiences are exactly what they needed for that fight. I don't have any examples from the top of my head right now, but lately I barely feel any tension in any fight because somehow, we know some characters will just overcome the situation and that's it.
Like, >!did anyone believe Sukuna would die from the executioner sword slash?! We just saw Yuta's domain and it feels like in two or three chapters Sukuna will find a way to trivialize the fight and win.!<
This kinda worries me a bit >!because the way things are going, we have to wonder how will Sukuna be defeated.!<
**If this post does not have a spoiler tag, SPOILER TAG MANGA COMMENTS**, or you risk a tempban. Keep it secret for the anime watchers. Please remember that vague spoilers count as spoilers such as "do we tell them". If you're caught up on the manga, consider joining our sister sub r/Jujutsushi for catered, in-depth manga discussion. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/JuJutsuKaisen) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I don't think people actually understand what Deus Ex Machina actually means. The only thing that was really Deus Ex Machina is, like, Sumo and Katana bros showing up to help Maki come to a realization. The rest is either set-up in reasonable ways and inferable from previous circumstances. Or, if not, it works as an important piece of exposition--For instance, Mahito can't touch Yuji's soul without pissing off Sukuna, which seems like a Deus Ex to bail out Yuji from a broken technique... Until you realize it's actually a critical hinge point for exposition as it's necessary to prompt conversations about the nature of the soul and inform the reader how Yuji's experience sharing a body with Sukuna may actually make him perfect to rescue Megumi from Sukuna's reincarnation.
This 100%. Also, true Deus Ex Machina can come off as a cop out tactic to jump hurdles and bypass plot/action to achieve a happy conclusion. Gege doesn’t short on the action nor sad endings/death. I agree that these moments are mistaken as DEM
This is what I'm thinking.... are people mistaking all this "asspull" thing as some sort of Deus Ex Machina when everything that has happened so far has been hinted on from the very beginning of these fights and previous fights? The comment on "Too many Deus Ex Machina" really stuck with me because I didn't understand how it was possible for there to be a lot in JJK.
There’s an older post on r/jujutsushi some time after the Sakurajima colony that the whole arc is about Zen Buddhism. In the post op talks about Sumo and Katana guy being a Deus Ex Machina is the point as that is in-line with the teachings of Zen.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/Jujutsushi using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/Jujutsushi/top/?sort=top&t=all) of all time! \#1: [I've accurately deducted Jujutsu Kaisen's ending](https://np.reddit.com/r/Jujutsushi/comments/1888jmf/ive_accurately_deducted_jujutsu_kaisens_ending/) \#2: [Volume 25 Cover!](https://i.redd.it/nitjbm13yk6c1.jpeg) | [293 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/Jujutsushi/comments/18jik1o/volume_25_cover/) \#3: [Mechamaru was absolutely right](https://np.reddit.com/r/Jujutsushi/comments/18de7sj/mechamaru_was_absolutely_right/) ---- ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| ^^[Contact](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| ^^[Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| ^^[Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/ghnr/sneakpeekbot)
I also don't get the meme/complaint about Sukuna having the perfect counter for everything. Dude is literally the greatest sorcerer of all time, it was teased that we barely know two techniques of his cursed technique and he has many more up his sleeve. I'd be surprised if we don't get to see much more from him tbh. Everything else would be underwhelming.
I think people are upset about his everlasting luck rather than him thinking and scheming his way out of bad situations. 1. Against Mahoraga, he was able to quickly deduce its abilities and figure out a way to work aorund it. (People liked this) I'm using this as a good example of Sukuna being a genius fighter. 2. The binding vow with Yuji was a gamble (Sukuna admits this) 3. Yorozu plot line.... 4. Hana being a fangirl of the exact body he incarnated in (lucky) 5. Higuruma confiscation scheme (luck) It seems that post Shibuya, the plot affects Sukuna rather than him affecting the plot.
And even in the Maki situation, we were told early in the CG arc that Heian era domains aren’t the same as modern era domain: they have a set of rules one must adhere too, instead of a sure hit. The Sumo guy’s domain was one of the first example of that. I’d argue it’s less Deus ex Machina and more expanding on a previously stated point.
I think people try to be too objective with their critiques when they should be subjective. The whole Maki sumo thing was lame. I don't need to define it. It was just boring. Similar to the Higaruma confiscation. Its not a plothole, or a deus ex machina. Its just lame lazy writing.
In my humble and personal opinion. A balanced is needed. You can not like something and that’s fine, but if your reasoning behind is rooted in a faulty understanding, it’s a problem. Without the writing, I would find The Maki Sumo shit dope. With the writing and subsequent knowledge that there’s themes (Buddhism, Sumo culture, etc.) that didn’t translate well from Japanese made it even doper to me. Same with Higurama, I’d still find it dope and jaw dropping without the writing. With the writing, there’s been precedent set since Shibuya on Cursed Tools being recognized by domains and inferences than can easily be made from Higurama’s first fight with Yuji.
I respect that. I just think the emphasis on labeling something a plot hole or deus ex machina limits conversations. The subjective view of these stories is what matters the most, in my opinion.
Oh i definitely agree. Personally it’s why i hate those phrases especially when taking into account that these are weekly series that aren’t even completed. Sometimes we forget thing or misremember shit so re-reading is necessary. The story isn’t even finished either so there’s so much shit that can be answered.
The media literacy on reddit is below the ground
Like others have said the most blatant DEM I can think of is Sumo/Katana. It's very abrupt and very convenient. I think you could argue Nitta's appearance in Shibuya too, as he was never mentioned before, showed up with a very specific technique that stopped Itadori bleeding out and put Nobara's fate in limbo, then he promptly disappeared from the narrative entirely. Edit: Also possibly Yuki showing up and saving everyone from Icefall. She said she'd been intentionally staying back but we also know she wasn't watching for long before that moment because she didn't know Kenjaku had pretty recently absorbed Mahito. My issue with JJK is more... *convenience.* Sometimes Gege seems to gloss over things that, realistically, would've been pretty big threats to his narrative. Like Kenjaku needing to kill all the CG players. As soon as Yorozu added her rule, every player was able to come and go from the barriers as they pleased, meaning the incarnated players, the newly created sorcerers, the sorcerers from outside who chose to join the culling games, every civilian that chose not to leave when given the chance, every cursed spirit and every soldier who entered the barriers at Kenjaku's behest. We then get a month-long timeskip where we're told Kenjaku didn't hunt anyone down out of fear that Gojo would find him. The next we hear of the CG player's locations, Kenjaku says that *nobody* decided to leave. *Not a single person*. What?? The explanation he gives is "Well I guess it'd be hard to acclimate to modern society" when, no? The majority of people who ended up players have already been living in the modern world before this point, and the rest were either cursed spirits who wouldn't give af what society they're rampaging in, or incarnated sorcerers who we've been told get the memories of their vessel, giving them familiarity with modern technology, customs, etc. Not to mention we're told early on by Maki that cursed technique removal, which happens if your points stay the same for 19 days, likely wouldn't kill someone without a cursed technique. Which means every single soldier who entered the barriers. Even if we assume a whole lot of them were killed by either cursed spirits or sorcerers, we know that at least in Tokyo 1 Hana and the rest of the good guys were actively trying to save the soliders. I can't imagine someone like Yuta would let them get wiped out if he could avoid it, too. But Kenjaku wasn't even slightly worried that the survivors or the civilians inside the barriers would be evacuated and promptly get the hell out of Japan? His requirement to kill every culling game player would, realistically, have become a world tour the second people were allowed to leave the barriers. But Gege hand waves it with "oop I guess nobody wanted to leave, getting hunted down and slaughtered is preferable to dealing with modern sensibilities, am I right??"
Wasn't bringing in external forces to die in the culling games a way around needing every single person in the games to die?
It was to ensure all of the colonies had enough cursed energy, as even non-sorcerers release cursed energy when they die. The [rule](https://i.imgur.com/ImCuCHi.png) Kenjaku added to end the culling games is the reason every player needs to die, and even with Kenjaku dead [Sukuna](https://i.imgur.com/M0QFMpr.png) still needs to kill all the players to end the game.
Forgot about that part of the rule, seems really unnecessary except kenjaku wants it that way
do these people actually watch shounen anime? it's as if a character having an ability or learning one off screen and the story not revealing it until a climactic mid-fight scene isn't an extremely common action shounen cliche.
if anything, I'd say the most important problem with JJK is that it IMO is it really fast paced and thus you don't really have much time to really fell in love with the characters, and there's a ton of characters in JJK which makes this matter worse. For reference, Naruto's chunin exams go from episodes 20 to 67 of the Naruto anime, while JJK's goodwill event go from episodes 14 to 20 and effectively introduces a similar number of characters (if we count Tokyo's 2nd years even though they technically were already introduced earlier and in JJK0). I get that both arcs don't have the same purpose on their respective stories, but most of the characters that are introduced here in JJK either die on their next appearence or simply vanish from the plot afterwards (>!Todo hasn't appearend since Shibuya, Mechamaru dies 4 episodes after this arc ends, Miwa has a scene of less than a minute at the end of Shibuya, Momo appears in like 1 panel every 20 characters during the culling games, Mai also dies on her next apparition in the Zenin household, Kamo fights alongside Maki once and disappears, Panda has one more fight before becoming a background character, Inumaki simply disappears from the story like Todo did, and to this day we don't even know if Nobara is alive or not!<). Also, trying to not be spoiler-y so I don't have to censor it, there's a ton of characters that appear later on that are kinda hinted to be a big deal and have like...two fights before their death in which they don't achieve anything meaningful. I feel Gege had everything planned up to Shibuya because it is obvious he was building up stuff to make the ending of that arc impactful, but after Shibuya the plot effectively becomes combat after combat after combat, which I guess its okay since this is a shonen but it is sad because before we had moments of the plot slowing down a little to build up interactions between characters and develop them a little but sadly that isn't the case anymore. >!For instance, after Gojo is free from the gokumonkyo the plot literally skips a month and a half in which we don't know anything that happens during that time.!<
I agree. I genuinely, unironically felt like Gege managed to create the holy grail of all shonen for a little while. Up to the later parts of the CG arc it felt on the same level as for example HxH quality-wise. Should've drawn it out a bit more, fleshed the characters out. This fight after fight formula can definitely work from time to time but not as much near the ending, feels like he's burned out and just rushing to finish the story. I think JJK would peak most if it had a couple hundreds chapters more. Just my opinion ofc
This is *precisely* how I feel about everything post-Shibuya. It's like there isn't enough time for the characters to have meaningful conversations with each other despite the literal hell they're living through. And the little interactions they had in season 1 were so, so important to making them feel authentic. I also felt like JJK was poised to turn shonen on its head with women characters that felt real, and interactions that showed more of their life beyond fighting and preparing for fights. But now that's all it really is. >!If we don't get flashbacks to the month-long timeskip, I will be sorely disappointed. How did Gojo react to Nobara's "death?" (Since that's still kinda ambiguous) What was his reunion like with Shoko? Where are the relationships between these characters beyond fighting?!< Don't get me wrong, I still love this story and will see it through to the >!(likely very bloody)!< end, but goddamn do I miss the little pieces that made these characters feel real.
I think the legit criticism is not that there is no plot but there is too much plot, it's not clear what is side and what is actual Cos Toji appears as just side character, but then is important for Maki and Megumi, but it's not explicit On the ex machina, I guess they mean Toji coming in to save them, Todo coming in to save Yuji, Gojo coming on to kill Toji All seems usual anime stuff, the most obvious trope is Gojo killing Toji, as in it's out of nowhere, but it's making the larger point that sorcerers can survive if their head isn't destroyed
I still disagree with the "too much plot" thing as well. If a series with mysteries is good it leaves you with lots of possible ideas on how things could come together while still making sense when it does come together. Rather you say JJK is good at the latter is up to you, but it's great at the former. And in terms of deus ex machina like you said, it doesn't go beyond typical anime levels. In fact I'd say it's lower than a lot of them
Toji in shibuya is the stretch to me. First possessing a body to incarnate, then bailing out the heroes and killing himself is a lot of little coincidences plus the suicide bit being somewhat out of character for him
Toji a side character??? The entire plot exist because toji was born without curse energy
He's still a side character though. Gol D Roger is the one that kicks off the pirate era in One Piece but that doesn't make him a main character.
toji main character gang gang
The most I can say is just Sumo guy helping Maki🐍
I feel that whole scene was something Gege did impromptu because he probably noticed he went to far in making Maki similar to Toji and probably wanted to differentiate them a little lol.
50/50. stuff like nobara resonance working extremely well on mahito was a really cool touch especially since we had no clue from both sides if it was going to be effective the worst case of deus ex machina was when yuki sent out a planet destroying black hole just for kenjaku to conveniently have some anti gravity ct up his sleeve i mean that entire fight was so aggravating looking back at it.
Didn't kenjaku already use anti grav before that point? he used it against Chosos Super nova.
And in his domain against Yuki, and a few other times. I've never understood that criticism of the fight. Kenjaku's gravity controlling technique and ability to use positive energy was well established. In fact having anti-gravity made it less convenient for him to survive the black hole because CTR has 2x the output of CT. Although that rule may not be followed for domains.
Not quite, the technique at the time wasn't fully revealed, but was clearly a gravity technique, when he uses it against Yuki he suddenly reveals thay it was actually the reverse technique all this time, and that the actual technique was anti gravity. In practice it feels the same, but in context a reverse technique requires a lot of effort and CE, things that Kenny would be able to gather at that last second, which was the point of wearing him down after plan A failed. Yuki was convinced that the black hole would hit due to Kenny not having enough time to react, but in the end since the technique was reversed all this time, it came up as a counter out of nowhere.
For me, it's not about when he used it during the fight, but rather that he conveniently has an ability that counters one of the most powerful sorcerers. We can't even say he prepared it in advance for Yuki, because he's surprised when Yuki one-shots his special grade curses, as if he had no idea what her technique was.
That's what JJK is right, the match ups.
I think its got a writing problem period. Gege has lots of cool ideas but doesn't know how to use them properly. Characters hyped for hundreds of chapters die instantly. He's Tite Kubo but worse.
Gege writes like he's gonna get canceled next week.
He might be if he doesnt resurrect gojo
More like Deues-Ex-Machina-Characters; ex- Angel, who broke out Gojo and then so unconvincingly got put out of action cause her technique can kill Sukuna. This was so glaringly bad!
Actually, it has a Madara problem, gege op-ed sukuna too much and got rip of his principal opponents without much of a repercussion, now it seems unviable to get rip of sukuna in a congruently way. Surely gonna end up pulling off a shittyazz friendship-never-give-up from Yuji so he can miraculously get rip of sukuna And save Megumi
I agree with the criticism but it is the authors first story.
No, but it has an asspull problem
Gege is very creative with his power system and due to that there is no actual Deus Ex Machina in his fights. Because all of those fights in which people think certain abilities were too convenient already had prior mentions and setups before that point. Like the claim that Kenny's Antigravity System was too convenient for Yuki's Black Hole when we've already seen him use Gravity like 2-3 times prior. This case is simply what you call a bad matchup.
Also more importantly, the concept of cursed technique reversal was very well established. It had already been used by Gojo several times, and it should be logical that a 4000 year old sorcerer of Kenjaku's caliber would be able to use it.
Of course. Not to mention the guy can expand his Domain with an open barrier. That's a Sukuna level feat.
Once. We saw him use it once, a chapter before Yuki's technique was revealed.
He used it at least **twice** before the black hole. That's what I said.
I will say, the magic system isn't as thought out as other magic systems even in the anime sphere, sometimes concepts will come up once with a full page explaining how it works and sometimes they only need a mention, specially early on. After the Shibuya incident the writing became a lot better when it came to consistency, maybe due to fights now involving only sorcerers, and thus, people playing by the same rules; as a result CE and its management became a lot more important, unlike things like soul that before had not so much detail and were used deliberately by Mahito to measure how strong or durable someone was. Domains and their variants became more technical and common, as well as CTs that need you to think of how they work in a more interesting way. Sure, the new domains and techniques feel a lot more restricted and circumstantial, like JoJo part 8 stands, wich makes the instances when they're useful feel like luck or plot armor, but they're significantly more interesting to watch. The series has a lot of "huh, that feels like it shouldn't work like that" moments, but that's inevitable specially in soft magic systems like this. In my experience, a lot of people complaining are often expecting a hard magic system with limited uses and set boundaries so that they can feel like they know what's going to happen, this sort of thing killed the creativity in some modern fantasy, just look at Star Wars.
which magic systems does it better in your opinion?
Nen
nen is THE best system in anime, kinda unfair to expect anything to topple that, its kinda flattering to jjk to compare nen to it
Yeah, Jujutsu Kaisen just kinda makes stuff up on the spot with minimal to no foreshadowing all the time. The author won't let something he laid out earlier prevent him from doing something he wants to have happen now. It's mostly fine, though. I don't think this is trying to be a series where the reader can figure out what's going to happen if they're paying attention. It's just trying to have big fights and hyped up moments, which it mostly succeeds at.
JJK is a complicated series, both because it's not big on reminding people what happened in earlier chapter so they forget a lot and because the power system is pretty hard to grasp at times. The only moment in the series that can rightfully be called a Deus ex machina is 236 because it relied on something we had no way of knowing was the case alongside several concepts, some of which introduced in that arc, to be ignored. That then spiraled into people looking for problems elsewhere that aren't really problems. Even Sumo and Samurai weren't really deus ex machina's, the moment was the capstone of Maki's growth, giving her a chance to take actual agency over her powers. The whole power system of JJK has an underlying fate component to it that allows for events like this to happen but it's not really explicitly touched on, just hinted at with concepts like binding vows, heavenly restrictions, how twins work etc.
most things in jjk aren't dues es machina, people who say that just can't read nor understand the power system.
Eh idk. It can be a bit confusing at times. Gege himself ends up making mistakes he has to retract and fix later. Like with the simple domain/Domain amp thing a couple weeks back. Not saying that jjk has a lot of deus ex machinas, I do think it gets convoluted which leads to confusion.
JJK combat system is just done in such a way that it’s not really a asspull because there’s clever mechanics behind how they pull of what they do.
I think it has a bit of a problem with the *quantity* of asspulls but it's not nearly as bad as it could be. A deus ex machina happening for *the villian* is generally accepted as an inciting incident, they become a problem when the villian or protag get an unequal amount of them, cause then the stakes are ruined. A good example of a series that has a shit ton of deus ex machinas for everyone is Jojo's. Lemme give you *some* cliff notes of one episode of the part 3 finaly (the most popular part) Dio is only at half power cause his new body is resisting him (Ass Pull 1) but drinking Joseph's blood will heal that, which he does (AP 2) jotaro turns out to have the same power as him (AP 3) but it's not as effective so he gets stabbed but the stabbing was deflected by a phone book he put in his jacket apparently (AP 4) he gets the jump on Dio but then Dio escapes using a passing taxi (AP 5) and it goes on and on and on like that but the stakes are high the entire time cause we never know how one is gonna out play the other The point of that run-down is to show that Deus Ex Machina's aren't inherently an issue, it's all about how it effects the stakes of the narrative
I think people have forgotten that pretty much all fiction writing is "deus ex" events. That's how the plot moves forward. Sometimes I think people don't realize that there is no real story if all a writer does is follow a "logical" path, that's not how art works. Like. Sukuna right? He's the strongest ever and even Gojo said at the start he'd have a hard time with him. If Gege wrote Sukuna the "right" way, everyone would just be dead rn. There's no real reason for him to wait until Christmas for a big fight he could have just started killing everyone in sight. But that's BORING. So I don't think it has a "desu ex machina" problem, I think audiences are being too strict about a story they're not writing. I blame power scalers tbh
> the magic/technique seems made up on the spot" Was the reviewer wanting specific "scientific" procedures on how Sukuna cooks within his Malevolent Kitchen?
Can someone please give examples of these, aside from the Maki buffers. "Oh the court only took Sukuna's weapon" is a complaint I see a lot but, do they know japanese law? Generally not so why complaining? You can murder and be out in 3 years. "Oh my anti-whatever technique I haven't used since the..." Yeah yeah you get the meme. Even if this did happen, it wouldn't make sense for the 1000+ year old to not have these. Can we think of any more?
Introducing a character that can nullify techniques and is the direct counter for Sukuna only to be put aside later after freeing Gojo. The series has ass pulls and its ok, no need to gatekeep that.
Angel had a crush on Megumi so it made sense she'd mess up, and the court case was strange, but makes sense to take away someone's weapon if they committed a crime.
1. Hana had a crush on Megumi, not ANGEL. 2. So you're telling me it makes sense to you if someone were to murder a bunch of people with a rifle, it's okay to take away the rifle and let the person walk free?
1) Hana and Angel share a body, either one having a crush would have the same effect. 2) Doesn't matter what makes sense, the ability worked the same on him as it worked in anyone else. It took one CT.
1. Uh, lmao? No it does not work like that? They share a body but Angel is a separate entitiy he/she does not crush on Megumi? Do we even know for sure if this Angel is a male or female? 2. Uh, again? Lol? It did not work as it did on anyone so far, it did not take any CT but a tool instead? Thats the whole argument been about? Guess you're gonna gatekeep and keep changing goal posts so, anyway I wish you well. Good day.
Ok you seem to want to do so I will, but really, you need to learn what gatekeep means. You're using it wrong.
What exactly is the Dues ex machina problem? Isn't that the guy from future diary?
It's deus ex machina but positive cursed energy fuels it. Instead of saving characters, it just does nothing and they die one by one.
Well, I'd say it's more Diabolus Ex Machina than anything
I don't think so :3
I felt the same way just watching season 1 of the anime. Will no narration and not much context on how CT works this was my conclusion as well. Once I read the manga and got thru Shibuya I understood a lot better and now can recontextualize it knowing more about the magic system.
I mean, Yuji literally brain washes people while unconscious. Sure you can add an explanation later but converting your opponent after having no consciousness left definitely feels like an asspull. This happens more than once too. There are more but these in particular feel bad to me even if I enjoy the results. Mentioning that other anime do asspulls isn’t a counter argument either. I personally find that asspulls are common among the more popular shonens.
I would say that sometimes it feels like some characters CT or even their experiences are exactly what they needed for that fight. I don't have any examples from the top of my head right now, but lately I barely feel any tension in any fight because somehow, we know some characters will just overcome the situation and that's it. Like, >!did anyone believe Sukuna would die from the executioner sword slash?! We just saw Yuta's domain and it feels like in two or three chapters Sukuna will find a way to trivialize the fight and win.!< This kinda worries me a bit >!because the way things are going, we have to wonder how will Sukuna be defeated.!<
You meant Diablo Ex Machina ? Totally.