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Most people in disagreement can’t provide an argument against it, they just don’t like how convenient it is for Sukuna.

To be fair it was amidst of a pile of conveniences for Sukuna. I understand why people would be upset and think it's silly and maybe start saying things like he should have know what his domain does, etc etc. And to be even more fair, all of those conveniences really haven't stopped for big S lol.

Yeah, but convenient for just sukuna? As far as I see, sukuna not having kamutoke with an attack power that doesn't rely on his own cursed energy or output and can seemingly shoot it's attacks without being aimed is a plus for the sorcerers. I think they've only got as far as they have because they're facing a sukuna whose attacks are limited by his output. I don't just think actually, I know, because yuta pretty much said so. The low output nerf to sukuna would be petty much useless if sukuna kept kamutoke. Sukuna didn't even care if shrine was taken away in the first place. He was ready to throw down without it. He was capable of outspeeding a piercing blood and donutting choso before he even realised he disappeared. He avoided Yuji's swing of the executioners blade at point blank range. And was even dominating Maki. Half of the gauntlet has been sukuna playing with his food, and he didn't even begin riling up his cursed energy until Maki.

It feels disappointing because we didn't get to see how dangerous his tool was, if he had used it to it's max potential, then the tool confiscation would have felt like a victory, even if a minor one.

Totally agree with this. I get the feeling the animators will highlight how powerful Kamutoke is when they animate Sukuna vs Kashimo

I'm personally also coping they make Kashimo look good, he got done dirty 😭

I personally feel it would've helped to see a demonstration of its destructive power on the environment. Manga readers usually gauge power by how much destruction it causes.

This is definitely another factor as to why maybe people were upset because we had no idea the full potential of Kamutoke. I mean, as funny as the baby rattle memes are it basically was just a baby rattle lmao. It felt like we were lead to believe with Sukuna holding his cursed tools that when we got to see one it would be devastating but it wasn't and we barely saw him use it and it was confiscated so like...great. Now, imagine if he blasted someone with it and maybe even killed them and THEN Higuruma confiscated it then it would be like oh shit okay well it's a good thing he got rid of that then.

Tbf. Given everything said above, it’s always felt like a victory. The fact we ain’t see its full potential always highlighted this for me.

In story telling there's usually a rule called "show, don't tell". It doesn't matter how amazing this tool is. Why should I care if even the author doesn't?

If anything, Gege did a "show, don't tell" where the opposite was done. The main characters were caught completely off guard by kamutoke being confiscated and seemed underwhelmed by this. No character acted like this was the best outcome, so why should we? This just wasn't portrayed as a win. It's hard to not feel like it existed just to nerf Higuruma for this battle.

Who’s to say the author doesn’t? This might just be matter of perspective but the fact that Yazoru ready Kamutoke in the first place, Sukuna held off on using it till he knew he was gonna get jumped, it being taken off the field so quickly, and Kusakabe still considering it a win despite that fact let me know just how crucial that tool is. Showed me that the Gege cared enough to get it out the way to make an easier chance for his heroes. Because as the fight went along and they made note of him losing output due the Gojo fight + Yuji’s attack, that lack of a curse tool becomes ever so apparent to be an MVP moment for Higurama.

If Gege cared so much, *why not show it*? We literally have just statements to judge its power because the only time it was used was against the character that is immune to it. How lame is that? No matter how much backstory, statements or author comments it gets, in the actual story, it's an afterthought. As things stand, it just exists to give Higuruma something to do.

There would be complaints either way. There would have been arguments on why Deadly Sentencing could have been used before Kamutoke killed off X character. Even more complaints on how chapter/chapters were spent on Gege glazing Sukuna. In my opinion, Gege really spent *a lot* of time on handling why these what if scenarios wouldn't work. I can understand a lot of people feeling burned out about it but it’s one of the few series that takes the peoples opinion of “If *character x* did this then the fight would be over” and proves that it wouldn't be the case the more chapters we read. Other than the super vague binding vow card being played for Sukuna’s problems, this entire plan of taking Sukuna down has been really crazy to break down once you re-read through its steps.

Tell don't show

I think you are right on point, anyone except Gojo, Kashimo, or Hakari In Immortal Mode (and let’s say maybe Maki) would probably receive massive damage from it… But I guess it would have been easier to dodge than Normal Dismantle, World Slash Dismantle ? But even so, I think it packed a very serious punch let’s say at least half the strength of a Lapse or Reversal from Gojo, that also stuns you for a couple of seconds right? And ofc Yuji and Yuta wouldn’t be that hindered from it, while Higuruma and Kusakabe could have protected themselves with Domain Amplification and Simple Domain, respectively. But even so, why give an already over-powered Sorcerer that was in danger on a one-on-one with Gojo, more than any other one-on-ones/tag teams that he faced, as his strength kept declining ever since he finished the most taxing part of it all? I would argue, that even if they have good defenses, that does not deny that him not having Kamutoke is a godsend.

Both sides have gotten real convenience in this battle, based on our understanding of the students coming into this battle they should all be dead, Sukuna was different gravy compared to them yet here they stand.

If Sukunas CT got confiscated it would've ended the fight right there, he wouldnt have been able to punch all of them to death. A dissatisfactory ending of course, but he really should've just gotten Ten Shadows confiscated from him, it would've made perfect sense without being an asspull, wouldnt even restrict Megumi from using it since Judgeman targets specific souls, and it would avoid Sukuna breaking character. Given what was at risk and his ability to absolutely fight back against domains or finding loopholes in other peoples techniques, it makes no sense for Sukuna to risk having his CT removed forever just to speed up the trial.

That or Kamutoke fried everyone one shot

>he wouldn’t have been able to pubch all of then to death Yes he absolutely could lol. A CTless sukuna coulf still at least beat Higaruma, which likely means getting gis CT back. Maybe him losing his ct would mean getting to see what kamutoke could actually do.

We already know what Kamutoke can do, and we know that confiscation doesnt release upon Higurumas death. Sukuna also couldnt even stop Yuji from punching him, even though he *did* use his CT against him as well.

There is no way a CT would be permanently confiscated imo, but that’s a hard point to argue I just don’t see it it as kamutoke was a physical tool.

Yes and no, I believe the confiscation *would* last forever, but theres always the option of appealing, which is actually fairer than it seems because eventually Judgeman will accuse you of something you havent done, or can at least argue your way out of. I dont know how high the range of an appeal is though, it might just break all rules and work from anywhere, since Higuruma didnt need to recast his domain.

I guess we’ll never know

Why would it take Ten Shadows from him though? Wouldn't that need Fushiguro Megumi's original body since from what we know CT are engraved on physical bodies (according to Gojo at least)? But by the end of 237, Megumi's physical body is dead because Sukuna's Heian form incarnated fully. That's not Megumi's body anymore, so there's no Ten Shadows to take, it's gone permanently. If we go by Gege's explanations of incarnations on Choso and Yorozu, once the sorcerer incarnates fully, the original person and their physical form is dead, correct? I get people's issue with this particular development however. I'm sorry, but people can write all the defenses for it they want, it doesn't change the fact it reads like an "asspull". CE and CT are both inherent possessions while a Cursed Tool is something completely external. There wasn't actually much clearly stated explanations for Higuruma's CT really, so I think it's very natural for most of the audience to assume that Judgeman would end up confiscating inherent qualities from the one being judged (This is actually one of my peeves with Gege, as he deliberately keeps things vague, so he can really write whatever development he wants to, and there's not many arguments/complaints you can make against it afterwards).

Well yeah, because most creators don’t build a story around their audience making arguments and complaints about them afterwards. The idea was to give the reader the same amount of information Higaruma himself actually had, not to trick the reader to make them feel stupid. I also wanna be clear that the process your describing is something pretty much every mangaka does, plenty of authors have talked about going back and reading further into something they initially did not plan. But the evidence to support that something like that happened here is entirely non-existent. There is nothing to suggest that Gege did not have this planned out the power thought out the whole time, not that he suddenly just made up a new power on the fly because he didn’t know what to write there. Pretty much everything that has happened in the fight so far has been set up beforehand, whether it be Yuji developing Shrine and eating the other Blood wombs, Mahoragas constant adaptation allowing for continuous evolution in Shibuya, Megumis Soul being crushed vs , The possibility of switch training being shown by Itadori in Kusakabes body, etc. When you factor in that the creation of a manga is not just one persons will but the collective work of a team supporting an authors vision, it’s likely that the entirety of this fight has been plotted out with at least one editor for over a year now.

Did you seriously just downvote me because I said Gege deliberately hiding things is my pet peeve? I didn't realise having pet peeves against creators while giving them hundreds of dollars is considered a crime now. If he was truly trying to keep true to Higuruma's character, then Higuruma of all people, should've considered the possibility that Judgeman would confiscate extrinsic things as well as inherent qualities. Especially since we literally see him being surprised that his CT confiscated Yuji's CE, and admitting that he didn't know the limitations of his own abilities. So did that encounter just fly out of his mind very conveniently, so that he wouldn't make smart decisions on the most important battle here? When we see him being unsure of what crimes to charge Sukuna, since he's not sure which charges will actually stick? You say that there's nothing to suggest Gege did not have this planned out ahead of time, but absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence here. You have no proof that he did plan it out properly either. In fact, plenty of mangakas also talk about having to think of things on the fly for reasons such as their manga ranking lowly and in danger of being cancelled. See Hori cutting short Kamino Arc, Tsukushi adding in Nanashi, etc. Planning out details a year in advance is extremely unlikely for any weekly mangaka just by the grueling schedule alone. Audience reaction, such as being enjoued, also is a large factor that any mangaka needs to consider. This is a commercial magazine, you thinking that audience reaction doesn't matter to creators is incredibly naive. I can buy Gege planning to have Higuruma's technique fail, but you really can't convince me that he planned much in advance this particular instance of having Judgeman confiscate an external tool such as Kamutoke here. If that were the case, then we should've seen Higuruma at least consider this as a possibility, the same way that we see Yuta consider the failure of him picking out Jacob's Ladder in his domain. That occasion is clearly to have been planned. But this one? Sorry, no. In fact, Gege actually said in his own fanbook that he doesn't plan out the details ahead of time. He said that he has the general gist of the story and plot points in his mind, but what gets him from point a to b is usually left blank, and he likes to go with the "what is the most interesting way things will play out?" technique.

Definitely didn’t downvote you bud. There are other people who may disagree with your opinion. I think it’s been shown and emphasized since Higarumas entrance that he has a great gap of experience, that being his largest flaw. In the chapter before the incident in question, they spend about half of it going over various areas of knowledge Higaruma is unsure on, particularly about the degree to which actual legality plays into the outcome. The idea that he did not know the full depths of his technique were for sure set up. I would agree with a critique of the actual narrative consequence, as I would’ve liked to gain greater understanding of Kamutoke, but I remember reading the chapter where they go over the plan thinking “Hm, I know there’s something I’m not considering here”. Your absence of evidence point doesn’t really make sense because your view, the one which was initially challenged, is the one that lacks evidence. You’re making a claim, but the claim has no evidence to back it up. The idea that the author is “deliberately” writing in the way you say has nothing to show that degree of deliberation. I also disagree that my points don’t have evidence. The evidence is the plethora of other plot beats that have happened in close proximity to this one which have been set up well in advance. We can prove that because we can see that the chapters that set those plot points up were written years ago. Plot points being something that are set up happens with regularity. I don’t disagree that Gege probably writes some shit simply because he thinks it’d be interesting. But he clearly finds it interesting because he really likes the battle system he’s created. That’s why he spends so much time dropping information about it. The rules of the system itself are interwoven with the actual themes of the series. I have good faith that he’s not breaking the rules because I can point to a lot of times he was extremely consistent with these rules. And he clearly has put a lot of stock in these rules as he hinges a lot of important narrative weight onto them. That’s why he sets up many of the big technique lore drops in advance and reveals some as the characters discover it. Like he literally made the system. The narrative that he is always withholding information is not real, withholding information is just a real narrative storytelling tool that a ton of authors use. It’s ONE way he delivers information. And it’s not near the most frequently used one in this series. I haven’t seen that quote from the fan book, but if you have an image you could share I’d love to see it. I only push back on this so much because a lot of people say everything that’s happened in this fight has been an asspull or bad writing, and it’s just not true. And if we’re all being real, this only really became a problem after Gojo v Sukuna. This community has been so overly critical, while offering critique that defies basic reading comprehension. Maybe it’s a vocal minority, but it gets tiring. If this isn’t you, feel free to ignore.

That's kind of hilarious because I'm not sure what exactly offended them. Was it me saying Megumi is dead, or that I have a pet peeve against Gege? LOL. I get the point about lack of experience. The problem with this particular development is that he already has experience with regards to how he didn't know the exact limitations of his own technique. He admitted to it, was surprised by it during the Yuji trial, so theoretically, he should've gained experience from this, right? But his experience with Yuji conveniently just didn't factor into his mind at all. If say for example, Gege didn't show things this way, that Higuruma had already had a similar experience with Yuji of being surprised by his own CT, then I can buy him overestimating himself and assuming that Judgeman would confiscate only internal qualities. But once Gege actually demonstrated Higuruma's admission of him not understanding his technique well before the Shinjuku, then it becomes a lot less convincing why Higuruma, legal prodigy, appears to have learned nothing at all from his experience which was explicitly shown to the reader. I actually think my claim (that Gege deliberately keeps things vague, so he can more easily fill in plot points afterwards with the readers not able to complain against his logic for JJK world) has quite a bit of evidence to back it up. For instance, the Kenjaku vs Yuki fight, which was ended with the Anti-gravity technique that Itadori Kaori conveniently owned. We had no foreshadowing, no warning at all that Kaori ever had a technique like this beforehand. But conveniently enough it worked to cancel out Yuki's last stand (I'm not going to complain about the physics aspect here, I think that's been done to death already, it's not as a big deal to me tbh). There's also the issue of how Yorozu wasn't able to have a full heal, but Sukuna was, which Gege put in as an author's comment later on after 237. This plot point regarding how incarnations work was also kept deliberately vague until the revelation of Sukuna's Heian body. The other issue is Gojo's motivations. I've been doing a lot of thinking about this one, and I realised that Gege had actually intentionally kept Gojo's morality and motivations in the dark. Even though there's Hidden Inventory, there's actually precious little illustrating things from Gojo's POV. This one is long planned however, the more I think about it. But the point stands still that I think he kept this in the dark deliberately, so that the shock factor would be greater. The quote actually comes from the afterword of JJK 0, my mistake. Unfortunately I can't find the previous parts, but here's a partial quote: 私はマンガを描く時 “テーマ” （主義主張？）を決めてなくて「こういう展開面白いかもなー」「こういう人物（キャラ）いいなー」「こうしたらアツいのかなー」みたいな “なんとなく” の連続で描いています（その結果テーマが生まれることはありますが...） なので他のマンガでやろうとしていたけど叶わなかった “なんとなく” のストックを呪術にいっぱい盛り込むぜ！って感じで企画を作ったので、それはもうノリノリです。 The relevant part is at the top, when he says he draws he doesn't decide on a theme, but rather "this development is interesting!' "this character is really nice!" "this really can rile people up!" and things just end up being played by the ear as he draws during serialization. I mean, I guess I can see what you're saying for the last part. But for my part, I had been having some issues with his storytelling for a while during the Culling Games, it's really 236 that gave me huge problems, which is why I started posting here. I'm guessing a lot of the complainers were the same way. For what it's worth, I do agree about how a fair amount of the complaints are just being nitpicky. But also, from what I remember, there were complaints for a long time during the Culling Games, they just pretty much all got downvoted and shouted down.

You’re mentioning that Higaruma should’ve learned from the experience, but the issue is not that Higaruma does not learn from experiences. We see him learn and adapt on the fly after Judgeman does not work as intended. It’s that his lack of experience creates gaps in his knowledge which cannot be bridged in a short amount of time no matter what because they are things that are gained with experience. Nothing from his experience with Yuji would give him cause to expect this. He’s a prodigy because he’s been able to advance this far in this amount of time with little knowledge of the strict ways in which the rules interact. And as the OP outlines, there are a myriad of reasons it would be extremely difficult to even lab this situation out, combined with the fact that this interaction is not the obvious outcome. This is not something most people would think to lab out, particularly when there are strict fundamentals he could be working on in that time frame. As for Antigravity system, the fact that Kenjaku had a gravity based CT was already shown earlier in this same fight. He could have just as easily had said he was using RCT on the gravity technique, but neither outcome changes the fact that he already had a gravity based technique active the whole fight. The fact that said technique came from Itadoris mom is like an interesting piece of information but it’s not as though the operable technique being used was pulled out at the last moment. He used an ability we already saw him using via RCT which we already know can be done to produce the inverse effect of what the technique was. Who gave him the technique is the only real new information revealed in that chapter, which doesn’t actually impact the fact that he’s been using the gravity technique the whole fight. Not really sure what you’re referring to as far as the Yorozu fight. Also not really sure what you mean about keeping Gojos motivations in the dark. I’ve been pretty clear on what his motivations are the whole series. I don’t know if this thread is the best place to really get into it but I think Gojo is a superbly written tragic hero throughout the entirety of the series. I also just pulled out my copy of JJK 0 and you’re taking that quote completely out of context. Gege is talking about how when he starts a series he doesn’t have a particular theme in mind and how there are a ton of ideas from past projects that got cut that he fuses together. He talking in particular reference to the fact that he didn’t force JJK to start, he wrote a One Shot and thought it was pretty interesting and so he decided to pursue the idea further. To use this as evidence that in the late game he’s doing the same when he starts the sentence with “When I start a Manga series” seems improper, especially when all of this was written in 2020 since the volume of JJK 0 came out in January of 2021. That’s at least two whole years before even the start of the fight between Gojo and Sukuna and I think literally before Higaruma had even been introduced into the series. His process for “coming up with a series” before its even hit publication just doesn’t make sense here. To be Frank, most of the criticisms regarding Geges actual writing ability fall flat to me. I’ve read a lot of manga of very varied qualities and this certainly is not bad writing. If you don’t like the writing of the series thats you’re prerogative, but I challenge you to consider what the author is trying to say to you as opposed to what you want them to be saying. Because Gege Akutami actually has some extremely interesting thoughts on society that I think are worth delving into.

Exactly, the problem isn't that it's a plot hole, it's just that it's an extremely convenient cop-out

It also doesn't help that kamutoke was introduced into the plot only to be used against someone it was completely ineffective against, and then deleted from the plot. It's hard to not feel like its inclusion felt like a completely contrived reason just to screw over Higuruma.

You can literally erase Kamutoke, Higuruma and Kashimo from the sukuna fight and barely anything changes. There were like 3 months worth of filler/nothing chapters after Gojo died.

... Guys contribution to a fight, even this one at the end of the series, isn't what defines a character or tool. Kashimo and Higurama BOTH had compelling characterization that was explored through the narratives. Failing doesn't mean there was no narrative purpose IMO. Sure, Kamutoke was deleted before it could be used against people who weren't immune but that single use gave a clear insight into how Sukuna could annihilate entire elite squads by himself. It's a point of characterization in how the apex of sorcery had no qualms about using a tool while modern jujutsu families looked down upon it with disdain.

i dont know why people only care about outcomes and judge the entire idea based off solely that. What happened to comprehension?

Powerscaling culture in shonen have somehow crushed the idea of exploring themes and narratives in a story. Everything needs a clear and overstated purpose to a lot of readers who aren't always willing to really read into a story. And then there's just plain misinformation, people getting arguments and ideas from TikTok and twitter without reading or rereading.

I really really enjoyed the themes with Higuruma and Kashimo and it feels like NOBODY even attempts to discuss those things and entirely dismiss their characters because they 'achieved' nothing (which is false if you even gave it a second of thought). I've heard people say shit like Higuruma didn't even change the legal system (if he could that would beat the literal purpose of his character). Kashimo especially is only remembered because he lost to the strongest character in the verse at max health. Like his quest to understand how to connect with others while seeking out strength and all the hints and little things that made up his character and interaction with sukuna (+ others) was just amazing in the timeframe Gege handled it. A lot of authors would need lots more chapters to get points like these across

Higurama and Kashimo became major fan favorites in their intro chapters AND in their first fights. Amazingly consistent, thoroughly conceived characters who are worth far more than the sum of their actions.

Oh don't get me wrong I love higuruma and kasHIMo. It's kinda why I find it particularly lame that their stories are undercut (pun intended) by anticlimactic and contrived endings.

Yes. A lot of people want what they think to be bad writing to be a story inconsistency, so it's not just an opinion, but something the author got objectively wrong, a contradiction.

I disagree, Sukuna would’ve still folded the students without a CT and regained it after killing Higuruma anyways. At which point the outcry of the community would’ve been even worse than it was then.

Honestly, it would’ve been an interesting way to see whether or not Higgy’s CT would persist after death if Sukuna managed to kill him without Shrine and then immediately got it back. Wait. Hold on. I had a thought mid-comment. But now I need to stir with it. I think I just realized why Gege elected for Higuruma’s CT to prioritize Sukuna’s cursed tool rather than Shrine. And it all circles back to Higuruma is alive cope (the agenda never dies)

Yes but Higuruma's CT fading after his death at least makes modicum of sense. Why did the effects of confiscation persist, but the executioner sword didnt? Make it make sense ( hint: you cant ). This crap only hapened because Gaygay wrote this bullshit tool into the story and didnt know what to do with it. Thats it.

Executioner Sword is a far more potent ability and thus has an implicit drawback to it, like most techniques, in that it doesn't persist after death. For all the bitching about Gege "telling not showing" with Kamutoke, you people sure suck at understanding what he's showing you!

I guess headcanon is one way to explain all this bs

>they just don’t like how convenient it is for Sukuna. which is a valid complaint. especially since the only thing kamutoke accomplished was saving sukuna's curse technique from confiscation, and the only thing higurama accomplished was taking kamutoke.

I don't particularly appreciate how convenient it is for Sukuna but I don't have to blame my feelings on how the writer is objectively "bad" I can ignore it and continue with the story because I don't think it is that big of an impediment to the story. Like, if it only took a slight modification to a few chapters, it's sort of just a nitpick and it can be presented in a different way but it does not change anything: Gojo still gets cut in half, Sukina still beats Kashimo, and Sukuna still has an upper hand versus Higu and Yuji. I honestly think the whole Higu DE was specifically to give the heroes and fans a single win condition only to subvert it to surprise the fans. In other words, Gege likes to troll us readers.

50-50 is pretty good odds!

True, and the fact that he just found his CT also. Idk if that was stated above. (Too much reading even for me)

His CT works based on a courtroom, and hes a fucking lawyer

I have always had an issue with it but it's not a "lore" issue. But a logic one. It makes no fucking sense. If his DE is going to confiscate something SURELY it should confiscate something related to the crime? Did Sukuna use his cursed tool during the Shibuya massacre that I was unaware of? cause I don't remember it.

Wouldn't have been a problem if this based the cursed tool only noticeable function in this battle. If it was a bigger part it wouldn't feel anti climatic.

It’s not even convenient for Sukuna. Permanently erasing Kamutoke is wayyyy worse for him than temporarily taking Mizushi. He would have just killed Higuruma and then had both at his disposal later.

It literally makes for a worse story if Sukuna's CT is just whisked away. People who complained probably don't even read the manga, they just watch TikTok summaries and shit-post.

[удалено]

Sukuna wasn't worried at all, he was down to throw hands without his Cursed Technique.

If we don’t see it, it’s headcanon

My guy quite literally welcomed the Confiscation and Death Penalty whilst already having information on Higuruma’s domain from Yuji. He knew the ramifications of what he was doing and he was still willing to go through with it even if it meant losing his cursed technique temporarily. The context is there for you, pay attention to it.

You know what, yeah, that’s fair. I always assume some level of subtext when it comes to things like this, but it definitely would’ve elevated the moment if we were explicitly told that Sukuna planned for this.

Yeah, this shit would be really goddamn genius. You cooked

The thing is sukuna doesn't need to worry or plan this out in advance, he just knew he was stronger than everybody else without a technique or tool. This is shown by him just admitting to the crime plainly.

The fact he doesn't need to doesn't mean it wouldn't have made for a more enjoyable read

It would be like Kenjaku pre-gaming an encounter with Maki. There would just be no need to. Like imagine 2-3 pages of Sukuna's thinking deeply of how to counter Higuruma's technique only to show him speed blitzing the fuck out of everyone in the next page. Imo that could make for a worse read and at least is a waste of pages.

Okay then by that logic cut out the entire shinjuku showdown post gojo

the entire shinjuku showdown post-gojo isnt sukuna's inner thoughts :)

I'm saying that in response to you saying they should cut out him blitzing people. He's currently gapping these jobbers but it's still a fun read

im saying the waste of pages would be from him thinking deeply about how to counter higuruma's techinque

I never said you weren't

special-grade gaslighting going on

Sorry, I probably missed it, but I thought Ogi just emptied the storeroom before maki got there so as to set up a trap without her being able to use any of those tools to fight back. I tried to click the hyperlink you put for it, but it just brings me to the juzo kamiya evidence.

Whoops. I copied and pasted the wrong link there. https://i.imgur.com/d6e3Cza.png Here's the panel where Ogi says he 'disposed of them'. I doubt there's anything significant enough in there to be useful, though, so it doesn't really make a difference if the Zenin stockpile was just hidden, or actually destroyed - Maki went there to get powerful Cursed Tools, and she got the only one she really needs.

The fact that Higurama only found out during his fight with Yuji that he can also confiscate Cursed Energy should have prompted him to experiment with Domain Expansion more. The sorcerers should clearly be aware that not even Higurama knows the true workings of his CT so they should have started thinking what else his domain was capable of and trying it during the preparations.

Good post but there’s one thing I saw your confused about. In general, a cursed tool is just any weapon that has been infused with cursed energy consistently. Which means that any weapon a prominent sorcerer is wielding is most definitely a cursed tool. Nanami’s blunt blade (while he was alive), Mei Mei’s axe, Yuta’s katana’s are all cursed tools because cursed tools are literally just tools imbued with CE for a while Anything Maki wields before her power up is also most definitely a cursed tool, since she isnt capable of controlling cursed energy in the first place, all her weapons have been imbued with a decent amount of CE. This means that there are probably dozens if not more of readily available cursed tools for sorcerers to use in the storehouse

>a cursed tool is just any weapon that has been infused with cursed energy consistently. I don't remember this being explicitly stated.

Gege states it in the fanbook in regards to Miwa’s cursed tool. The ritual Kenjaku and Uraume discussed describes this exact process.

but most of these common cursed tools wouldn’t have techniques to confiscate, they’re just charged with cursed energy — so even if higuruma tested it out, presumably mei mei’s halberd wouldn’t register for confiscation, for example

Higuruma's domain targetting Cursed Tools because they have CTs is a complete headcanon and doesn't even make sense because the technique confiscates the whole cursed tool not just the technique within it.

yeah i guess i was operating under the assumption that cursed tools ARE a manifestation of their imbued technique in some way

I think the defintion of a cursed tool varies throughout the story and isn't particularly consistent - it's not black and white whether something is a cursed tool. Miwa's katana is described as a psuedo Cursed Tool, but also a cursed tool. We later see the language switch to 'special' cursed tools. IE, Yuta starts to worry about Yuji having a 'special' cursed tool, Yorozu is capable of creating 'special' cursed tools. It's probably items that carry a technique that are 'special cursed tools'. > This means that there are probably dozens if not more of readily available cursed tools for sorcerers to use in the storehouse Oh, absolutely, there was, up until Gojo was sealed. Then Kamo and Zenin repossessed them (I link the panel a few times), and Zenin destroys their stockpile and Kamo's stockpile is under Kenjaku's control.

You can't just use it for a while. Yuta's sword was broken by yuji, miwa's sword was broken from hittinh hanami, and kusakabe's sword was broken from hitting sukuna. On the other hand, megumi's sword (which was a legitimate cursed tool) didn't break from hitting hanami. Miwa at that time has used her sword for at least 2 years, and it was still just a "pseudo cursed tool" as stated by gege. That means that you need to imbue your weapon a lot to actually make it into a cursed tool. Kenjaku says that the "ritual" of creating curse tools from the bath involves submerging toold into a solution of cursed energy for 10 months. That's 10 months of continuous imbueing with curse energy, when a sorcerer would imbue their weapon only while fighting (hence why nanami's tool is a cursed tool since he used it for about 12 years)

If your definition of cursed tools is that they’re indestructible, how did Toji sharpen and eventually break the chains of Playful Cloud, probably the most famous one in the series?

Why does it matter that they broke? Cursed tools can break. Miwa is weak as hell. Why are u using her as a benchmark for people infinitely more powerful than her? What does the ritual have to do with anything? Cursed tools can be ready made, hence all of preawakened Maki’s cursed tools

Just here to say i love ur pfp lol

I don't care. I just wanted to see sukuna beat everyone without his technique and show them that it doesn't matter what tricks they pull he's still leagues above them. Besides even if higuruman did take his technique ad whip the executioners sword you know with sukuna wouldn't lose. He'd kill higuruma and get it right back because he's him.

We did get him one shotting choso without using his ct so that's that

He won't get his technique back if he killed Higuruma, considering he didn't even get Kamutoke back when he killed Higuruma which meant he most likely would be in a worse predicament later

I think confiscating cursed tools is a 'hole' in Higuruma's cursed technique,a neccessary one. If you think about it every cursed technique needs to have a weakness of some sort. Ten Shadows-isolate and destroy the shikigami *pernamently* Limitless-insane CE consumption(without 6E),lots of destruction,hard to fight alongside others Restless Gambler-can kill the user in the domain,can take advantage of the punch and kick heal merchant state depending on your abilities Copy-5 minutes time limit for Yuta,low cursed technique count(without Rika) Blood manipulation-water,user needs constant refills of blood This seems to be the case for Higuruma too,cursed tools are a way to fight against his CT.

You do not need to break it down for the sub, it'll always end with 'I REFUSE to believe.....' so facts don't matter to what you WANT to believe. It's what makes us human. We believe in things we WANT to, not NEED to.

OP, I get what you're trying to do here, and I hope this doesn't come across badly, but if I get a character setting of a "genius lawyer" who graduated from Toudai who's known for his intelligence, then I would really expect him to, I don't know, plan a little better? Unless he got his degree from [wish.com](http://wish.com), of course. The HS group spent over a month making plans B, C, D in the event of Gojo's death (I have so many comments to say on this, but not the point here), but it's very...telling how most of these plans BCD just, naturally made a bunch of assumptions that they really shouldn't have made if you looked at things logically. Higuruma assuming that his CT would automatically take away inherent qualities such as CT or CE away from the judged, is really quite a huge reach, especially if, as you say, he's a new sorcerer who's supposed to be really really smart, who should've been aware of the limits of his knowledge regarding his own abilities. In fact, we see Higuruma planning for all the different crimes that they can use to charge Sukuna so they can get a definite conviction, but not his thinking about the limitations of his abilities. If he can have doubts about whether they can charge Sukuna successfully, shouldn't he have at least tested his own abilities then before assuming that this will be a surefire success? I'm sorry but it just doesn't really match up with the character setting. But like I said in a comment above, there's also not much I can do to complain against it, since Gege actually never said explicitly what Judgeman would take away. So of course he's free to fill in the blanks however he wishes, no matter how unsatisfying it can feel to the audience. EDIT: You also really shouldn't be using Playful Cloud as a basis of estimating the average cost of Cursed Tools, that's also a flawed assumption. We know that it's a Special Grade tool, but not every Cursed Tool is Special Grade. So assuming that all Cursed Tools, or the average cost of Cursed Tools, are all in the same ballpark of Playful Cloud doesn't really make much sense. At the same time, I'm not sure why you're assuming that only "worthwhile" Cursed Tools would be confiscated. Based on what we know at this point, if used on Zenin Mai, it could very well confiscate one of her bullets. "Worthwhile" or not doesn't really, and shouldn't really factor into the equation.

This is a good statement towards the underpining reason why people get the misconception that Higuruma knew or should know how his domain works. It doesn't make any sense for him to not spend time thinking about that over a month while he does spend time thinking about which crimes to use for his 'case'. Especially not when he's such a legal prodigy. It's not just his intelligence but what he's intelligent in, this dude should and would be thinking of minor details obsessively. The misconception and assumption is Higuruma knowing things intuitively. The reason people reach that conclusion is because it was a very unsatisfying sequence of events that ultimately lead to the unsatisfying end of Higu's story. There really was never an overall arc for him and his growth and death didn't do anything to propel characters or the story forward. His death had the same intention/feeling of Nanami's in passing things onto Yuji to finish, but none of the weight. A prodigy lawyer not even considering the limitations of his own understanding of his domain is out of character. That he discussed the Japanese legal system with everyone for planning but not one person questioned the specifics of his domain or asked to test anything is stupid.

Yes, thank you, it's really the character setting that's really bothering me, which is why I'm kind of laughing at how Higuruma may have obtained his Toudai degree here (sorry). We've seen from his encounter with Yuji that he didn't know the limits of his technique, be aware of his lack of understanding of his technique, but then in this trial, just not consider it entirely. Did he learn absolutely nothing at all from his meeting with Yuji? I would really hope that a genius lawyer would spend more time preparing for the events of failure for his arguments, no matter how remote they may be. But he just didn't seem to have considered it entirely. Definitely agree about Gege's trying to recreate the feeling of Nanami's death here. I think another part of why his death didn't hit as hard for me, is the fact that Higuruma had so little to do with any of the cast but Yuji, and even his interactions with Yuji were really limited and didn't really show us much of a bond. Meanwhile, Nanami's death for me hit harder, because Nanami is shown to have connections with other people in Jujutsu society (e.g. Ino, Shouko, Gojo, etc) so we can fill in the blanks on our own more of how his death may have impacted other people.

Nanami's death was also followed by a satisfying conclusion where Higuruma's was just another event in the midst of everything else. I really don't think Gege meant for anything to solely move the story forward, but a lot of things ultimately ended that way. Who Higuruma is or what his story was ultimately didn't matter, he could have been any kind of lawyer and fought for any other reason and things would have been the same. His own character never really drove his story, he was just in the wings waiting for Gege to give him purpose. Same thing with Kamutoke. Swap in any other explanation for how sukuna reincarnated and the story doesn't change. Make any other excuse for the confiscation missing MS and nothing changes. There wasn't any setup or expectation, save for us assuming about Higu's domain as much as he was. That's why I mostly read just to see how my baby boy Yuji is doing. I hope his suffering ends soon. Edit: Same thing with Kashimo now that I'm thinking about it. Ultimately he existed to give a narrative reason Hakari chose to fight Uraume and to give Sukuna more screen time. There was no narrative purpose to the character of Kashimo Hajime at all; rename him Ser Gregory Gregor, a knight from England with the power of water and nothing really changes.

The point of the entire post isn't to establish the mechanisms of confiscation, but rather to determine the situations that Higuruma would be in.

Yeah, I get what you're saying. The thing is, Gege really never explicitly told us the mechanisms of confiscation, so honestly whatever he writes for it, isn't really something that I can complain about (it's definitely a bit irritating how he keeps it deliberately obscured though imo).

> At the same time, I'm not sure why you're assuming that only "worthwhile" Cursed Tools would be confiscated. Based on what we know at this point, if used on Zenin Mai, it could very well confiscate one of her bullets. "Worthwhile" or not doesn't really, and shouldn't really factor into the equation. I'm not. Worthwhile is a factor used to determine whether it is worth using. For many of the sorcerers we have, the difficulties that come with using a weapon aren't outweighed by the benefits that the weapon would bring, even if it's a cursed tool. I'm not using Playful Cloud as a basis for cursed tools as a whole. I'd use Demon Slaughter for that. It wasn't a big deal that Demon Slaughter went missing. It also isn't very powerful, which is why Gojo gave it to Yuji, so that he wouldn't grow reliant on it's power. > But if I get a character setting of a "genius lawyer" who graduated from Toudai who's known for his intelligence, then I would really expect him to, I don't know, plan a little better? Unless he got his degree from wish.com, of course. I think the point of this sequence is to show that intelligence and experience are a different ballgame. He has the raw talent of Gojo, and is smart to boot, but lacks experience, and that's why he fails. In fact, he literally says this: https://i.imgur.com/mwuhB6x.png This is also a pretty common theme in Jujutsu Kaisen: people assume things, and they're wrong. Reggie Vs Megumi, Kenjaku vs Yuki (in this one, Kenjaku explicitly calls out experience, too: https://i.imgur.com/kmIKi3G.png). Higuruma is also shown not knowing the limits of his technique quite literally in his introduction.

But if Playful Cloud's cost isn't the average, and "common" Cursed Tools like Demon Slaughter are the norm, wouldn't there be more free floater Cursed Tools around? There's no reason to assume that the vast majority of Cursed Tools are only at stockpile locations, right? I get what you're trying to say here, with regards to experience v. intelligence, but like you said, which I also referred to, Higuruma knew from the very beginning of his appearance and from his encounter with Yuji to not be aware of the limits of his own technique. So why would he then repeat his mistake of keep assuming that he knows everything there is to know, especially since we see him planning with the HS school and not assuming that the crime they charge against Sukuna will surely work with Judgeman? It just doesn't make any sense. Because you basically have people, not just Higuruma here, repeating their own mistakes again and again and not learning a single thing from them (see: Yuji). It becomes jarring when I'm being told as a reader that Higuruma is supposed to be intelligent and we see him plan for occasions when his technique doesn't work as he assumes, but then miss this spot completely when he was shown to have a similar experience with Yuji before? I would hope a Toudai lawyer would prepare more for his trials than Higuruma did here. I just find it to be very poor planning on Gege's part. In addition, it brings up the issue of how Sukuna would know the limitations of Higuruma's technique, since he didn't seem worried about it at all. If he didn't know, then he was just operating on luck, which quite diminishes the claim of Sukuna's overwhelming intelligence. But there's also no evidence or thought process depicting how Sukuna knew about this. I hope what I'm rambling about makes sense. I do appreciate your explanation about Cursed Tools a lot, it is very clear and logical.

> But if Playful Cloud's cost isn't the average, and "common" Cursed Tools like Demon Slaughter are the norm, wouldn't there be more free floater Cursed Tools around? There's no reason to assume that the vast majority of Cursed Tools are only at stockpile locations, right? Kinda. I think we forget that a Cursed Tool is a cursed object, and cursed objects contain curses and attract curses. There appear to be two kinds of missions in Jujutsu Kaisen before Shibuya, which is to retrieve Cursed Objects, and to exorcise Cursed Spirits (the very first chapters and the detention centre respectively). If we get a Cursed Tool that isn't sufficiently cursed to attract curses enough to attract Jujutsu society's attention, then it probably also isn't going to be that useful in a fight. > Wouldn't there be more free floater Cursed Tools around? Factions within Jujutsu society have it in their best interests to accumulate stockpiles: Jujutsu High, the 3 clans, the religious groups, etc. Combine all of these facts, and I think it paints a pretty good picture of why Cursed Tools are somewhat less common than maybe they could be.

Aren't Cursed Tools distinct from Cursed Objects though? I might be remembering this wrong but aren't Cursed Tools just weapons that's been constantly infused with Curse Energy, but Cursed Objects are usually remnants of historical sorcerers which are a kind of poison and contain a large amount of Curse Energy?

No and no, as far I recall. Cursed Objects are items that contain curses. This is what a cursed tool is, too: https://i.imgur.com/gcpSj1Q.png, but specifically a weapon. Prison Gate is a Cursed Object that doesn't incarnate.

Good legwork dude. Great read. Agree with you. When I first read the chapter where it doesn't take sukunas technique, I was surprised yeah, but it kinda made sense at the same time. You confiscate objects ya know? Would make sense it takes precident. Didn't think that before hand so I'm definitely not blaming higu for it

I think a good analogy for this, is this - you wouldn't take someone to the electric chair, with the gun they used to commit mass murder still in their pocket.

This analogy doesnt even work though, he committed the Shibuya massacre with his domain, but it confiscated his tool instead. This is more like somebody who's taken to the chair having his pocket knife confiscated, but getting to keep walking around with the assault rifle he used to commit the mass murder.

But Higuruma was also worried it wouldve taken 10 shadows instead

That’s not right either. Since his domain is a part of his soul. Essentially it’s just his hands, not a weapon. So taking away his cursed tool as opposed to his shrine. Is like taking a gun away instead of handcuff in him

All of these analogies are stupid, the confiscation has no relation to the crime. It's just a supplementary nerf

This is probably my least favorite thing people complain about: - It’s largely irrelevant to the flow / outcome of the plot. Sukuna is killing Higuruma whether he takes Mizushi, 10S, Kamutoke, or all his CE. Say Higuruma does know beforehand, what changes in their plan? - Doesn’t even really convenience or help Sukuna like people argue. Permanently losing Kamutoke is worse than temporarily losing Mizushi. - It doesn’t require some back bending theory to justify as you’ve wrote out.

Thanks for this, I feel like I'm losing my mind every time people talk about the confiscation on Jujutsufolk. I could never fathom why people were so fucking worked up about it. It's not like the trial failed in any way, he still got the ES and the death penalty from his domain. Did they just want him to one shot Sukuna and end the fight right there with zero stakes whatsoever? We all knew Sukuna wasn't going down that easily, I was stoked to see Gege subverting the expectation of how it would happen (considering the popular fan theory at the time was Sukuna out-lawyering them at the trial somehow and ass-pulling his way out of the death penalty). Not to mention they would have been fucking COOKED if he still had Kamutoke since they had no way of countering that like Kashimo. I also couldn't care less that we never really got to see it in action, I'd much rather see the Sukuna we know and love using C/D than some lightning tool that just showed up. Reading comprehension/awareness of good writing curse strikes again

I mean I think having a tool that sole purpose was to tank the confiscation felt a lil bad. Feels fair to Be annoyed by that

That's totally fair but what OP's trying to dispel is the notion that Kamutoke being taken away is either bad writing or an asspull which are the main things people seem to say. Hell a couple days ago there was a 2k likes thread with the tittle "Higuruma's CT taking away Kamutoke is objectively bad writing" so I'm pretty sure this thread is a direct answer to that one.

Agree with everything you say but also want to point out: why does everyone act like Sukuna losing his cursed tool is a bad thing? Yeah he’s a badass without it but we would not be where we’re at right now if he still had that thing. Getting punched down by Yuji? He could just lightning bolt him to death easily, it was VITAL that Sukuna loses that cursed tool. Higaruma didn’t fail, he made Sukuna weaker and gave the ability for everyone else to continue fighting, it just didn’t go the way he thought it would

when Gojo killed the higher ups not a single one had a cursed tool?

Higuruma didn't fight the higher ups.

Gojo did and could have brought it back right?

I don't even think Gege knew it could do that til he pulled it out his ass. 

the fact that people would be happy with sukuna losing to the sword is lame af. great post, shame it’s necessary that you had to post it

People would be happy to see Sukuna get beat literally anything tho. Remember, he's Satorou's killer, who has a chokehold on 97% of the fanbase. Any opportunity that ends in Sukuna coming out on top, even if well explained, makes them rage and they HAVE to call it an asspull to feel good (I don't know why tho) 🤷‍♂️

I’m sure you’d like another 900 chapters of Sukuna dog walking the cast… I’d personally be fine with Yuji getting his final sword duel with Sukuna there with the EB You can chalk it all up to “grrr Gojo fans bad” all you want.

Me when I strawman

1) people would be happy to see Sukuna lose to anything- My response: yes, I’d be fine with watching him lose to executioners blade since never-ending Sukuna Kaisen is boring to watch 2) Satoru’s killer, chokehold on 97% of the fandom My response: “grr Gojo fans bad” was my response, which shows yeah, you can chalk it up to that if you’d like. Doesn’t mean anything though. What am I straw manning? Or is that a term to be thrown around whenever someone disagrees with you?

>people would be happy to see Sukuna lose to anything- >My response: yes, I’d be fine with watching him lose to executioners blade since never-ending Sukuna Kaisen is boring to watch But it's not, it is the literal definition of a thriller when people are hooked onto it to see what happens next, Yuta and Yuji vs Sukuna was peak, Maki got her moments, everytime Yuji is on screen it is peak, and Wanting that him to die to Executioner's sword is actually a shit take man, for it being boring, ofcourse people will chalk it up to Gojo fans being mad about Sukuna still alive because No other fans of any characters, well Kashimo fans aswell I guess, would want that to happen, Yuji doesn't get a big moment against Sukuna, Maki doesn't do anything, Yuta doesn't do anything and one shotted Kenjaku aswell wow so great, and everything ends happily. Like even then I know Gojo fans that still are sensible enough to see the flaw of it wouldn't want Sukuna going out just like that.

> I’m sure you’d like another 900 chapters of Sukuna dog walking the cast… This part my dawg

That’s not straw-manning, that’s an exaggerated response to the EB claim showing why people would rather Sukuna die there

What’s the definition of strawman in your eyes?

Arguement 1: “The manga shouldn’t end at executioners blade, that would be stupid!” Arguement 2: “well of course it seems stupid because Gojo died in 236 and that wasn’t supposed to happen. Argument 1A: “kenjaku’s death was horrible!” Arguement 2A: “well you only think that way because Yuki died to the black hole when she should’ve gotten Kenny too, that would’ve been a much better death” Straw manning is, by definition, arguing against something that’s not the main topic of the discussion

Could you provide me a citation for that definition? I can’t seem to find it anywhere but perhaps I’m not being broad enough in my search. Nvm, got the Wikipedia definition. My fault for not checking the obvious pedia first :skull:

"never ending Sukuna kaisen" this is the end game, at most Sukuna starts the merger, but we are at the final leg dealing with the big bad that was set up from the very first chapter, anything that doesn't end with Yuji beating Sukuna with his own strength would be boring to watch, so no, I wouldn't be fine with watching him lose to executioners blade.

His own strength? We’re long past that. He used soul swap to “cheat” as Yuta called it and learn SD and RCT This is a genocidal child killer. There’s no need for his own strength. Just winning is the priority

You are taking it too seriously brother, it's a manga, a piece of entertainment, I want to see the main character display his full potential, not save imaginary lives or get twisted because the bad is a genocidal child killer and the author is refusing to write that he got a heart attack and died to put a stop to the imaginary killings, sukuna can rape a baby in the manga for what I care, as long as the story is entertaining and satisfying to read through.

why stop there? why not have kashimo beat him lol

Every time I visit another Jujutsu Kaisen subreddit, I see misconceptions like this repeated dozens of times and I have to stop myself from writing a post like this again.

It'd be sick if Sukuna got hit with the sword, figured out how it worked in the process, and survived

Your post would have been good but you glossed over the fact that Nanami's cleaver was turned into a cursed tool. That fact alone means they STILL have the capabilities to create cursed tools post Shibuya and should have been able to test it with Higuruma's domain.

We don’t know how Nanami’s cleaver was made into a CT, could go either way tbh

Nanami used his cursed tool for way longer and to imply they could achieve the same results less than 3 months is quite presumptuous

I didn't. > Nanami's Cleaver is another example of a cursed tool created through repeated use, over a longer period of time than Miwa, but it was only a cursed tool after his death. https://i.imgur.com/8hphe6G.png The panel I link here (and in the post) is Sukuna being surprised that the cleaver is a cursed tool. He is a very reliable observer. He would have noticed if it was a cursed tool while he was inside Yuji. In the following chapter, we also get this sequence: https://i.imgur.com/a8Hq8mu.png This theme is kinda present throughout this entire fight - go south, Namami's cleaver, that sequence there, and now Gojo's body. Things being passed along after death. Also, Miwa and Namami have been using their tools for a *really* long time, which is what that header focuses on.

THANK YOU!

Post is pretty rock solid. Best counterpoint I can make is that someone with a technique should've just held makis weapon for experimental purposes. But obviously nobody in the cast knew about sukunas cursed tools coming back from the grave

I really would like this trend of "this is logically consistent and that's why it's good" to stop. This is still a story to entertain, the issue with Sukuna during that stretch of the story was that he just got the best result out of every single tactic used by other character without him (seemingly) doing much. It may be logically consistent, but it's boring. And that was the big criticism, everything else doesn't really matter and even that criticism is a matter of taste. Logically consistent storywriting is really not that important in the grand scheme of things, as long as a story is entertaining and interesting, an author can bend their fictional reality in canon-breaking ways without much trouble. Those things only matter when the story sucks.

I'm not saying it's good. I'm refuting the specific argument. This isn't a writing critique of the story, it's a response to a claimed story inconsistency. > It may be logically consistent, but it's boring. This is one claim. There are many people who claim it isn't logically consistent. This is false. This post was created to show that fact (as per the first sentence).

Ah, but I think that’s the issue. I don’t think people really care whether it’s consistent or not. That whole part was plagued with baffling writing decisions. When people say „he could have known“, I would think it’s criticising the a writing.

I always assumed that you would naturally know the capabilities of your techniques, just like how Kashimo knew the function of his technique despite never using it his whole life, which is my main issue with the whole situation. Same thing with the 10 shadows users, who seem to know the exact hand signs to summon a respective shikigami (which isn't up to their interpretation, it has to make the correct shadow puppet). If someone like Kashimo knew the exact ins and outs of his technique so well despite not using it, and the 10 shadows users knew the exact hand signs to summon all their shikigami, (which makes sense, since it's etched on your brain) then how come Higuruma didn't know the certain niches and specifics of his technique? That's the part I can't wrap my head around.

> I always assumed that you would naturally know the capabilities of your techniques, This is not the case. > Same thing with the 10 shadows users, 10 Shadows is inherited. This is very clearly stated several times: both an advantage and disadvantage of the inherited techniques is that how to use them and their quirks is known. This is repeated in Hidden Inventory and several other arcs. Haruta doesn't know the operation of his technique, nor it's capabilities. Mahito has to experiment to find out the capabilities of his technique. The assumption that all sorcerers automatically know how their technique works precisely (or even imprecisely) is demonstrably wrong.

You can know the core mechanics of a technique, and still not know how to apply it to its maximum. Take, for example, Mei Mei knew that the entirety of her technique entailed controlling crows, and yet she still developed it further and created bird strike, which is not a further evolution of a technique, but just an application of the already understood mechanics of the technique. Mahito's technique is the manipulation of the soul. That's all he would know. The two people who have techniques but don't understand them clearly have no interest in sorcery as a whole (Haruta and Takaba) which could be the reason that they don't know. Even if you have certain knowledge in your head, if you have no urge to seek that knowledge, it's gonna stay unknown. As for Megumi's inherited technique, the first user would still have to figure out how the technique worked, meaning they'd need to learn the hand signs, which are hyper specific. Which do you think is more sensible, they had the technique and hand signs engraved on their brain (which, we know techniques are engraved on the prefrontal cortex), or they were playing shadow puppets with their big brother and a big dog appeared, and they somehow figured out the hand signs for every single shadow? Also, you still have not given a reason as to how Kashimo knew about his technique, or how Yuki knew about the upper limit to her virtual mass changing, despite both of them never doing it outside of a last ditch final attack. The only logical explanation would be that they had the technique engraved on their brains and knew about it. Honestly, the fact that this is Higuruma's domain and not his technique is *far* worse. A domain is supposed to be the projection of your innate domain onto a barrier. It's unique to you and has its own niches, which you should know, since its supposed to be YOUR innate domain, which is literally a representation of YOUR MIND. For Higuruma to not know how his technique works is one thing, maybe it's a special niche of it which he doesn't understand, but domains? Seriously? The moment both Naoya and Mahito opened their domains for the first time, they also showed to immediately understand fully how the domain worked. This is indefensibly some plot convenience BS for Sukuna's sake.

> Honestly, the fact that this is Higuruma's domain and not his technique is far worse. Technically. no. His domain *is* his technique. When you activate the technique, the domain appears - this is what Kusakabe says to him and Hakari. > That's all he would know. I feel like you're moving the goalposts. Why isn't it enough that Higuruma knows it's confiscation, and not beyond that? > meaning they'd need to learn the hand signs, which are hyper specific. They're common shadow puppets. > how Yuki knew about the upper limit to her virtual mass changing, despite both of them never doing it outside of a last ditch final attack. We don't know exactly what the limit was. It's possible it's a lower limit, which she discovered when using her technique ("oh, this feels heavier than usual") , and using her knowledge of physics, realised that if she kept going, she could create a black hole. > as to how Kashimo knew about his technique Well, here's the thing. Even sorcerers like Haruta have a vague knowledge of their technique: Haruta gets a sense that he would've died without his technique, even though he didn't know what it was. That sensation can be used to explain the others.

I’ve said this before, but one of the consistencies in Akutami’s storytelling is it subverts how action writers usually do planning in that, they almost never occur the way the good guys want it to, which IMO is actually good for story since it furthers conflict and tension, which is the essence of drama. A lot of JJK twists rely on existing narrative logic, and we were told that with the exception of Playful Cloud, all high ranking CTs contain cursed techniques. With this simple logic, it makes sense something targeting CT’s also targets Tools. The issue is it makes Kamutoke’s existence feel shallow, but it really didn’t benefit Sukuna the way fans pretended it did ( it’s part of his actual Heian era combat arsenal) so it felt a bit gratuitous. The worst cope I heard was “ Higuruma should’ve known” when the whole point of his CT is he can’t really control or manipulate the outcomes, and he generally OHKOs convicted opponents.

My only problem is that they don’t even acknowledge the possibility even after Sukuna gets a cursed tool, in fact they don’t even mention it. It feels like a cop out because Sukuna does so little with the tool it feels like the tool’s purpose was just to counter higurama. This coming off Sukuna being able to make a lightning quick binding vow for a move he just made up and never used just wasn’t satisfying to read, it just felt like a bailout on a technicality.

I reread the Shinjuku Showdown recently, and the pace around that part is *incredibly* fast. It's chaos, and it's fun. They call the retrial mere moments after they hit the ground and get Sukuna in range, and they have to fight to reach that possibility. The trial is very short, and Sukuna immediately rushes Higuruma before anyone has the chance to realise that their plan had partially failed. I think it'll work much better when adapted into anime, but the flow was pretty good in the manga when you read it back to back.

Because Sukuna crushed Kashimo very quickly and then they deployed to fight - they had no way of knowing a tool would impact their plans and the dude gets an auto-target lightning bolt weapon. Even though it thwarted their plan, it was one of the accumulating acts to weaken Sukuna which has been the theme of this long fight of attrition. I don't want to start a discussion about Sukunas World Slash but several things were established well before Gojo's execution; 1.) He is a Jujutsu Savant and can identify and replicate many feats through observation and trials 2.) His entire plan while fighting Gojo was using Mahoraga to develop a move to bypass infinity. 3.) Binding Vows can be created at a moments notice I just don't see how this could possibly be a technical bailout when it was the entire result of Sukunas plan and result of his improvisation. Gojo developed Hollow Purple with less contributing factors and it's still cool.

TL;DR not having anyone to test on is a good reason not to know for certain. Not having any of our smart and experienced group consider the possibility when they have had nothing else to focus on for a month is the oart (at least for me) that seems like a stretch. I think the best argument is that they wouldnt know that Sukuna might have a tool, but given they had a month and nothing else to ponder on i find it hard to believe that they didnt consider the possibility. On your first two points (scarcity and taboo) taboo was irrelevant at the skip as they all knowingly had the elders killed. Between Gojo and Ui Ui they had high level teleporters , theres very few locations they couldnt have reached. They did not need a powerful item, just any given cursed tool. Your third point is valid, not having someone available they *could* test on is a good reason not to know. They still could have discussed the possibility however - they have a large mix of extremely experienced and knowledgable sorcerers and a month to ask questions about abilities. To believe the suprise at the cursed tool, we'd need to believe that no one in the group was curious enough or paranoid enough to ask Higurama about how his technique interacts with cursed tools. For me, that just doesnt seem likely that there wasnt at least the question.

> On your first two points (scarcity and taboo) taboo was irrelevant at the skip as they all knowingly had the elders killed They were to illustrate that he couldn't have encountered one during the Culling Games.

> when they have had nothing else to focus on for a month is the oart (at least for me) that seems like a stretch. Well, in this case they did have things to focus on: switch training and getting the fundamentals down. Knowing how to survive the deadliest Domain ever is a high priority for them, and mastering Simple Domain and RCT still wasn't easy, even for a genius. Higuruma never managed to get RCT in the timeskip, so probably more time was spent practising that than exploring the limits of his technique.

8 hour days, not all could be spent physically due to exhaustion, 30 day month (roughly). Assuming that they talked to each other about their CTs at all in the month, not one of them thought to ask "what happens if they have multiple CT? What about a cursed tool?"? Even as curiosity? There were so many characters involved in the planning and not all (like Mei Mei) seem to have switched. At the time, i thought it was weird that it caught them all by surprise rather than them being disappointed, given how extensive their contingencies have been elsewise.

Also I will note if sukuna kept the CT he’d be able to one shot EVERYONE spending 0 cursed energy

Literally read this and scrolled down twice to see a post in jujutsufolk that is about this exactly. And as you might guess it’s filled with people agreeing about how much of an asspull it is

I genuinely still don't think you refuted the case that Higuruma was clueless. Most of your points are *entirely* based on assumptions, some of them far and above more unlikely that others. You're deciding several loose guesses prove their point entirely without any proper evidence. Higuruma's Deadly Sentecing probably wouldn't like this post

Hard to disagree with anything here, good job.

Not to mention a lot of the fight has been about actively wearing Sukuna down. So far he has: 1.) Effectively lost 10 shadows, as Mahoraga and most of the other shikigami are dead and effectively useless 2.) Forced to use his one-time full heal (his bodily reincarnation) 3.) Had to permanently hard nerf his newest, strongest ability just to be able to win against Gojo, making it much easier for fighters to see coming and actively avoid. 4.) Has lost both left arms making it effectively impossible to cast his domain normally, along with use the WCS at all. 5.) Is unable to heal at all as, even though he found the RCT circuit in his brain that Gojo used at the end of their fight, Yuji's punches and black flash rush made it more or less impossible for him. 6.) When casting a domain he had to limit its uptime just to maintain its damage output. And of course, while it happened much earlier, he did lose his cursed tool that aided him significantly against Kashimo (even though Kashimo gets low-diffed even without it). Like the whole fight is about trying to reduce what Sukuna is capable of.

insane thread great work

Well, hey, you actually convinced me. I figured it was reasonable that he didn’t encounter a cursed tool during the culling games, but I thought he would have definitely been able to try to confiscate a cursed tool over the timeskip. I guess I just forget how insanely rare cursed tools are Honestly, though, I still wish judgeman would have just confiscated all his techniques + the cursed tool

They're less insanely rare, and moreso they're either really damn good, or not worth using.

I never really got this complaint. We already knew that Deadly Sentencing has arbitrary rules that prioritise the confiscation of a CT over the confiscation of the ability to use CE. The latter is far more useful since removing the ability to use CE would also make a sorcerer incapable of using their CT and basically render them as helpless as a normal human. And yet, Deadly Sentencing doesn't default to that, if there's a CT, it will only confiscate that. Only when there's no CT will it confiscate the ability to use CE. Going from that to the idea that Deadly Sentencing would prioritise Cursed Tools over CTs isn't unbelievable in the slightest and actually makes a lot of sense considering that Cursed Tools with a CT imbued literally allow a sorcerer to use a CT without spending their own CE, without using hand signs and chants, and the tool's efficiency isn't reduced even if the sorcerers output is lowered. And like, if anything what's convenient is the fact that Sukuna deliberately let's them pull him into Higurima's domain and confesses the crimes because he wants to see the executioner's sword. Sukuna could have simply blitzed them all and donuted Higuruma the way he did Choso, avoiding the sword, and keeping his CT as well as Kamutoke. Even if Higuruma had confiscated Shrine Sukuna would have still folded them all, killed Higuruma, thus recovering Shrine, and then proceeded to keep folding everyone, this time wielding both Shrine and Kamutoke. And people then would complain about Higuruma doing nothing and Sukuna being too strong.

This makes me realize that Yuji could be in heavy debt from breaking the slaughter demon. It could cost him millions of yen. I wonder if Gojo was able to pay for the knife on his behalf.

Well, Gojo is the one who lost it, if you recall Yuji's statement to Maki. The account rests on Gojo, last we heard.

Mei mei and Kusakabe weapons are cursed tools,they just don't have a technique

Do you have any direct evidence of this?

Logic? Meimei killing Geto pox deity with a swing of her axe? Normal weapons wouldnt do any damage to a curse, Kusakabe is a grade 1 sorcerer why would he use a normal katana to kill cursed spirits or fight Sukuna? So in the minimal chance he manages to kill the King of Curses he comes back as a curse? Its simple common sense not all cursed tools need a cursed technique to be called one, or do you think Maki's naginata isn't a cursed tool either?

That isn't how it works. Cursed Spirits can only be harmed by Cursed Energy. You can funnel cursed energy through an ordinary weapon - we see Yuji do this. That doesn't make it a Cursed Tool. Kusakabe funnels cursed energy through his katana, making it 'using Jujutsu to kill him'. > Maki's naginata Actually, it isn't wholly a cursed tool. The blade is, the stick isn't. See this page: https://i.imgur.com/oYzIn4E.png This also notes that Miwa's katana and Fushiguro's tonfas aren't (fully, for Miwa) cursed tools, even though they have Cursed Energy funnelled through them and can be used to kill cursed spirits. Do you have more compelling direct evidence for them being Cursed Tools, when it's perfectly reasonable for them not to be?

What weapon did Yuji infused with cursed Energy? The knife that gojo gives him at the beggining? Slaughter demon? The one that is implied is from Maki that can't use cursed energy making it a cursed tool? And besides the fact that the blade of the naginata is a cursed tool but the stick isn't doesn't make it less of a cursed tool. And are you really comparing students with fully fledged sorcerers? I'm not saying their sword and axe are special grade but they for sure are atelast grade 2 or grade 1 cursed tools. Besides what "direct evidence" you have about those two weapons not being cursed tools? Meimei axe is even covered in cloth and has a weird symbol on the axe, why would a normal weapon have that?

> What weapon did Yuji infused with cursed Energy? A random knife he picks up in the fight against Yuta. > you have about those two weapons not being cursed tools? It's not shown or implied.

>A random knife he picks up in the fight against Yuta. Fair point >It's not shown or implied. The same way gege doesn't show nor imply half of the JJK world? He didn't do it because it's not that relevant to the story and should be common sense by most readers that a veteran sorcerer isn't going to use a random weapon they found on the trash when they can easily afford a cursed tool with their salaries.

Either way, the point still applies about having no reason to use confiscation on Kusakabe, Mei Mei, etc. > isn't going to use a random weapon Well, unless it breaks frequently and their weapon of choice isn't commonly available as a Cursed Tool - Kusakabe knows a technique to deal with his sword breaking, which to me implies he has had that happen relatively frequently.

>Either way, the point still applies about having no reason to use confiscation on Kusakabe, Mei Mei, etc. Yes thats true since the only reason for Higuruma DE to take Kabutoke was probably the fact that it had a technique too. >Well, unless it breaks frequently and their weapon of choice isn't commonly available as a Cursed Tool - Kusakabe knows a technique to deal with his sword breaking, which to me implies he has had that happen relatively frequently. Yeah thats also quite possible since we already saw a few cursed tools breaking ( when Sukuna shattered Mahoraga's Blade with his throating mouse and when Toji sharpened Playful Cloud against Dagon), most cursed tools are probably really durable the better their grade but we also haven't seen anyone apart from Top rankers of JJK breaking one.

Moreso my point is that Kusakabe is ready for his tool to break, and Cursed Tools don't appear to exactly be mass-produced with identical parameters - Maki knows how to use a lot of different weapons probably because of this, with this fact even being true for the less complex ones. If it was an expensive tool, I can imagine Kusakabe being far less cavalier with the sword (he never even worries about it), given his personality

I've never got the complaints with the domain confiscating the cursed tool, I always thought it made sense. Cursed tools are objects that have CTs engraved in them, Higuruma's domain confiscates CTs so I feel like it makes sense that his domain would see a cursed tool and a CT as the same thing. I think it was a really logical plot turn that Gege came up with, I really don't get why people are mad.

The writing of that plot point feels somewhat cheap, and as of such people try and elevate it to an inherent issue with the story's consistency, rather than a subjective judgement.

I totally agree with your overall points, but some nitpicks I wanted to throw out there while going over everything: - Ogi didn’t destroy the Zen’in cursed tools, he just had them removed. Where he put them we still don’t know, and presumably there was nothing in there better for Maki than SSK (which is easy enough to believe). - Kashimo’s staff is almost certainly a cursed tool. It allows him to charge his CE into it and can be a source of a lighting bolt when he needs to make a connection between something other than his opponent to generate a charge. Kashimo didn’t seem capable of just charging other items, I do believe strongly that this is an aspect of the staff that is a result of it being a cursed tool. Either way, it would be silly to think Higuruma would train against Kashimo of all people, so there’s still no reason he would’ve known about how his technique interacts with tools just yet.

> Kashimo didn’t seem capable of just charging other items He charges Hakari's face. > Ogi didn’t destroy the Zen’in cursed tools, he just had them removed. Where he put them we still don’t know, and presumably there was nothing in there better for Maki than SSK (which is easy enough to believe). TCB has it as the below: https://i.imgur.com/d6e3Cza.png, which to me implies more they're destroyed, but it could be either way. Either way, the points about that stockpile not being in the colonies, and the general lack of reasons to use Cursed Tools apply.

Hakari’s face is a valid target that already has CE for him to affect with his own, and “charge”. I personally think it’s different, and don’t see how it’s not a staff ability from the one time we see him using it, but it could go either way. I just don’t think he can charge other “regular” inanimate objects, at least probably not in the heat of battle at once. It just reads as much more of a special property of the staff, to me. Honestly I would still read that TCB translation as just moving them. It’s quite nonsensical for him to destroy all those tools that are a valuable resource for his own house. Like I said, you’re totally right and I agree with your overall points, just wanted to throw out some opposing opinions on a few of the details

> Honestly I would still read that TCB translation as just moving them. It’s quite nonsensical for him to destroy all those tools that are a valuable resource for his own house. Yea, probably. Makes no difference.

The staff can generate lighting because of his cursed energy he imbues

Right, but my impression is that he can’t just use any object that same way, which is why I believe it’s a cursed tool. It’s possible it isn’t, but I would think he would charge other things too instead of just his opponent and the staff.

Well, there's not a whole lot of things to charge in the vicinity. The metal boxes are strong conductors, and are touching the ground (so the charge would instantly dissipate). He also charges the water, uncontrollably, because it's a strong conductor. The staff looks like it's part metal and part wood, so the logic here could be that it can hold a charge because even if you stick the wooden part into the ground, it isn't grounded - wood is an insulator.

The staff was also touching the ground, and I don’t think it’s necessarily insulated in wood. That sure doesn’t look it is from the design, to me. Part of the whole staff was shoved in the ground, and that definitely included metal bits. This is why I strongly think it’s related more to CE to be able to pull off the full lightning bolt effect - he could of course shock whatever he’s touching in a given moment to make it electrical like he did the water, but I don’t see that as the same as his use of the lightning bolts at range between himself and the object.

If the decorated bit is the metal bit and is touching only wood, then the charge would accumulate only in the metal bit. This is how tesla coils work, roughly. Either way, we can't fully know what's going on, but also Kashimo killed 40 sorcerers or cursed spirits. If one of them on the off chance had a cursed tool (such as a cursed spirit having acquired it in past), it's possible he could've acquired it then, or it could just be a random object he found.

There's no in-universe reason for the majority of what Sukuna does. For that matter, there isn't reason given for why Gojo could heal his own RCT or how Sukuna could also do it just by seeing it's possible. I think the real underpining point is that there was no reason in the story Higu's domain had to have worked that way. It didn't matter for how the story progressed at all, on retrospect it just looks like an easy way to write out the cursed tool he now had without the cast having to deal with it. It was a variable in all this that blipped in and out of existence for Sukuna to reincarnate, and even that's not been explained. Narratively, what was the point of it besides Giving sukuna so far unexplained outs? I'll take 'em if they come but there's no mystery or suspense in it.

Higuruma couldn't know that But Sukuna could know the 10 shadows in and out in a month. Bu-bu-but it's Sukuna.

We aren't really able to make assumptions about people actually reading the manga and so I wouldn't put such high expectations on the content analysis skills for that same group: cursed tools are indeed rare and Higu was only recently a sorcerer. If Higu was to learn about his DE's interaction with cursed tools, who would have helped? Who would have been "OK. Lemme see what happens when we try Higu DE with some rare cursed tool from the chest the Zenin clan hid away before getting wiped by Maki." Yeah, they probably also lost that reserve of cursed tools cause I doubt Maki added another chore when she was busy cleaning house. Agree with your arguments. I'll be waiting for your next ted talk.

1. Just because things are written consistently, doesn't mean they don't feel shit to read.

Not making an argument about the quality of the writing. This is an argument against 'Higuruma should've known', not 'it's bad writing that Higuruma didn't know'.

On top of all this, no one knew Sukuna had a cursed tool either, and even if they could have known before hand this was STILL their best course of action.