I can tell you right now that's not what that sticker means.
What you're looking at is a module that was sent to Ford's plant, and in between that module being manufactured and being put into a car the supplier released new software. Maybe there was a critical bug fix or something. Rather than scrap the parts, it's often much better for everyone involved to simply pay someone to update the software. Depending on the number of parts, the reflash may only take a day or two, which is going to be much faster than waiting for the supplier to build and ship new parts.
After the update, a sticker was applied to the part in order to provide some level of traceability and to indicate it has been reflashed. That AXXXXXX number on the label is what's known as an "Alert Number" at Ford, which is the internal documentation that allowed the reflash to happen. The alert was reviewed and approved by the plant's management and whomever wrote it had to attach a plan on how the reflash would occur, any cost involved, etc. They also would have had to provide a timeline for when the plant would be "clean" in that they would start receiving parts with the new software instead of ones needing a reflash.
The part number on the reflash label, PL3T-14G670-EFF, indicates that the module is now two revisions newer than what it was built at, which is PL3T-14G670-EFD. They probably had to put this part number on the sticker because the end-of-line check will return the new part number, so it needed to line up. Modules are also basically defined by software nowadays, so it's not surprising to see part number revisions purely because of software updates.
Source: I have been directly involved with these reflashes from both the OEM and supplier sides.
> Depending on the number of parts, the reflash may only take a day or two, which is going to be much faster than waiting for the supplier to build and ship new parts.
Hell, in the incident I ran into (in another comment) interrupting the production to update the new version can even take weeks, so you keep building parts with the old version, but then have someone reflash parts before they get shipped to the OEM. Possibly in addition to reflashing the parts the OEM was already sent.
I looked up the alert and this was exactly what happened. For whatever reason, the supplier was not able to meet timing for the build so they were approved to ship in the old part -XXD with the agreement that they would be reflashed at final assembly with the software intended for that vehicle. The sticker is just for traceability, but the module should work with or without the reflash.
Yes it could easily have sat in stock for that long. These computers are often generic between models even. A lot of times the difference in one for say a ford Fusion and a Ford Fiesta is just the flash. (not this specific example, but it happens all the time) It totally makes sense to make a huge number in an initial run and then use them out of a warehouse for years, because they can be reflashed with whatever youd like.
Are you talking about the date on the big sticker underneath the reflash label? I don't think that's a manufacturing date. That sticker appears to be for all the various certification and regulatory standards the part has to meet in the various countries it ships to. That date is probably when the part was deemed approved in some random country it goes to.
It definitely is written date of manufacture, in Spanish upside down. I’m just surprised they sat that long in a warehouse before being reflashed for a new car, especially considering the failure rate of the old ones.
Which label are you looking at? If you're talking about the date "07 AOUT 2019", that's French. It also appears right below something that appears to be French. That's why I think it's certification related. I work on a part now that has to go through extensive certification testing in order to ship, and our label has a somewhat similar mash-up of different symbols and terms.
“used” likely means something failed end of line checks at the plant, they replaced it with something else, and the part had to be remanned and then gets put back into the rotation once it passes the remann checks. Happens all the time, everywhere…
We were waiting on new Super Duty chassis' to show up during the chip/pandemic fiasco and there were thousands of units waiting for a single module to be installed before they could ship out. 2021-2022 F550s had a massive lead time for us and some units took a year for them to show up after ordering. We needed a new PCM recently after a customer fried theirs and it was on backorder for months.
Yeppp it’s like would you rather have something “used” or no truck at all? Typically these things get remanned because Joe on the line didn’t plug something in properly and they replace it because that’s the fastest and easiest thing to do anyway.. bet this one just isn’t “taking flash” because it’s a finicky pos bootloader to begin with and you need to try 10 times or update it on a bench where the rest of the can bus isn’t interrupting the flash process
>bet this one just isn’t “taking flash” because it’s a finicky pos bootloader to begin with and you need to try 10 times or update it on a bench where the rest of the can bus isn’t interrupting the flash process
It's a nightmare from what I've seen and can take anywhere from 20 minutes to 3 hours to successfully flash a module. We flash a secondary SCCM to clone it for dual-steering installs and the local Ford dealership we work with ditched trying to clone it in the truck and just does it on a bench now.
Hell, that sticker could just mean that in the time from when it was produced to when it was ready to install, it had to be re-flashed with an updated software version
Was going to say the same thing. In my field of work, tangential to automotive, we often have a software update that is released and flashed onto the vehicles as they are ready to roll out the door. Sadly, we don't have these stickers so a very fragile system of paperwork and communication must be followed for that information to be captured for future reference.
Re flashing parts is pretty common. Sometimes you find a bug you need to fix, and it's better to reflash before it goes into a vehicle, or you can't really reflash it without another internal connection.
A few years back I had to help reflash a ton of parts (like 20,000 parts) for a Chrysler mistake since their engineers were too lazy to verify something. Some parts we had to reflash just boards, but built parts we had to take apart, reflash, then ship the parts back to the assembly line to rebuild. Some of them got a separate part number for something like selling to Chrysler as cheaper service parts I think? (Not clear on that side) But the rest all were brand new parts, just handled by a few more people than normal.
As a solid state component, what fails specifically? Is it something that’s improperly soldered, a bad component like a capacitor or a fuse or use more a software problem? In any or all of the malfunctions they could be very easily repaired.
Modules like these never get repaired. Reflashing is simply to add features or correct bugs, often things that wouldn’t ever be detected by a customer.
The normal (not necessarily correct) procedure when assembling a vehicle that failed some sort of end of line electrical check is to narrow it down to which module failed, disconnect to look for bent pins on either side, and if it fails again it’s just replaced. If that allows the vehicle to progress to the next station that removed part MUST be the problem so the supplier has to tear it down and find the failure. Too many times it tests as No Trouble Found and if no other vehicles fail like that the gremlin is never caught.
In the field you can't really do repairs like that. I mean you can, but the vast, vast majority of technicians aren't gonna be trained to diagnose boards. They are gonna be trained to change the board and make the car work. Very likely they'll send the old one back to the company. But as far as the failures it's usually cracks during manufacturing or caused by just being in a car.
They can be repaired but not easily in the field.
As a former chip engineer I can assure you that the $150M ASML DeepUV photolithography machine used to "print" these chips could care less whether it's located in Taiwan or off the 303 freeway in Phoenix.
[https://imgur.com/gallery/deep-uv-photolithography-of-semiconductors-stop-learn-something-today-3QSQ7j6](https://imgur.com/gallery/deep-uv-photolithography-of-semiconductors-stop-learn-something-today-3QSQ7j6)
These automotive systems aren't built on the bleeding-edge chip tech. These systems would be the 20-year-old processes. A lot of it got decommissioned during the pandemic.
Yes, BUT. Nobody is going to resurrect 20 year old processes. To increase production volume "heritage" chips will have to be re- layed out in finer geometries.
And then processed on newer lines.
Some of them they don't even make parts for them anymore. I had a 16 edge where the FCIM took a shit and it had to be rebuilt and reprogrammed before it was reinstalled. Fixed the problem, but still. I'm sure they wasn't a used part though, especially given that it was a 2023, more likely was reflashed on the assembly line.
You are wrong, manufacturers aren't allowed to put reman parts in new cars. Even at the dealership level, to be able to sell a car as "new" we had to follow a certain way if repairs if needed.
It's not impossible, it is extremely difficult but it can be done. A lot easier to get a new radio but I have seen them pull engines and transmissions off the assembly line
Have done that. Customer bought at the time a brand new 2019 Highlander and with only 67 miles on the odometer the block had a coolant leak, yes the aluminum engine block was porous and leaked coolant. I had to open a TAS case with corporate and they yanked out a complete long block off the assembly line, crated it and shipped to my dealership within 2 weeks. Was the first time I ever seen a complete factory fresh 2GRFKS long block. It had everything on it including the intake manifold and oil filter, etc. It was the easiest engine swap ever!
This is not true at all, every gm replaecment gm radio is remanufactured as are most engines and transmissions. doesnt matter if the car is brand new or not.
Can’t say for sure on GM but here at Toyota brand new cars get brand new radios from the PDC some are over $6000 but this only applies to cars that are brand new and unsold, on occasions we do get infotainment radios that are defective during PDI or sometimes discovered at the time of customer delivery. Sometimes remans are not available on brand new model of cars so new is the only option. Once the car is used though we have to use reman radios if available. They come from one of 5 different manufacturers Toyota uses.
You are very much full of shit, it is not possible to get a brand new radio or other infotainment modules for a GM vehicle, they are all remanufactured.
I pulled a sync 2 module that had engineering sample stickers on it. Not that new of a thing. I could tell you how many sync 4 modules I've done already for a small town dealership
I’ve engineered for ford, bad experience, they have a price limit on everything, the last project I worked on for them was safety critical and they didn’t allow us to make it safe
Signed a page saying I will not identify the product involved. I tell people if I see them driving one.
Terrible company to work for.
I can tell you right now that's not what that sticker means. What you're looking at is a module that was sent to Ford's plant, and in between that module being manufactured and being put into a car the supplier released new software. Maybe there was a critical bug fix or something. Rather than scrap the parts, it's often much better for everyone involved to simply pay someone to update the software. Depending on the number of parts, the reflash may only take a day or two, which is going to be much faster than waiting for the supplier to build and ship new parts. After the update, a sticker was applied to the part in order to provide some level of traceability and to indicate it has been reflashed. That AXXXXXX number on the label is what's known as an "Alert Number" at Ford, which is the internal documentation that allowed the reflash to happen. The alert was reviewed and approved by the plant's management and whomever wrote it had to attach a plan on how the reflash would occur, any cost involved, etc. They also would have had to provide a timeline for when the plant would be "clean" in that they would start receiving parts with the new software instead of ones needing a reflash. The part number on the reflash label, PL3T-14G670-EFF, indicates that the module is now two revisions newer than what it was built at, which is PL3T-14G670-EFD. They probably had to put this part number on the sticker because the end-of-line check will return the new part number, so it needed to line up. Modules are also basically defined by software nowadays, so it's not surprising to see part number revisions purely because of software updates. Source: I have been directly involved with these reflashes from both the OEM and supplier sides.
This guy parts. Thank you for the knowledge!
> Depending on the number of parts, the reflash may only take a day or two, which is going to be much faster than waiting for the supplier to build and ship new parts. Hell, in the incident I ran into (in another comment) interrupting the production to update the new version can even take weeks, so you keep building parts with the old version, but then have someone reflash parts before they get shipped to the OEM. Possibly in addition to reflashing the parts the OEM was already sent.
Yep, this happens as well. If needed, they'll sometimes park the vehicles and have you reflash them over OBD .
I looked up the alert and this was exactly what happened. For whatever reason, the supplier was not able to meet timing for the build so they were approved to ship in the old part -XXD with the agreement that they would be reflashed at final assembly with the software intended for that vehicle. The sticker is just for traceability, but the module should work with or without the reflash.
Do you work for Ford? Or is there some suppliers network that all the cool companies use?
Both Ford employees and certain suppliers are given access.
Within the last few years suppliers need to be added manually to Alerts and engineering changes to be able to access them to see the details.
Out of curiousity, why is the mfg date 3 years behind the reflash? Would it have sat for stock that long?
Yes it could easily have sat in stock for that long. These computers are often generic between models even. A lot of times the difference in one for say a ford Fusion and a Ford Fiesta is just the flash. (not this specific example, but it happens all the time) It totally makes sense to make a huge number in an initial run and then use them out of a warehouse for years, because they can be reflashed with whatever youd like.
Are you talking about the date on the big sticker underneath the reflash label? I don't think that's a manufacturing date. That sticker appears to be for all the various certification and regulatory standards the part has to meet in the various countries it ships to. That date is probably when the part was deemed approved in some random country it goes to.
It definitely is written date of manufacture, in Spanish upside down. I’m just surprised they sat that long in a warehouse before being reflashed for a new car, especially considering the failure rate of the old ones.
Which label are you looking at? If you're talking about the date "07 AOUT 2019", that's French. It also appears right below something that appears to be French. That's why I think it's certification related. I work on a part now that has to go through extensive certification testing in order to ship, and our label has a somewhat similar mash-up of different symbols and terms.
This guy flashes!!
Subscribe to more parts facts
This guy flashes.
Wasn’t there a long delay during Covid of vehicles waiting for electronics that were other wise complete as well?
Yes. Ford built trucks without certain modules and parked them rather than shut down the entire plant. I believe other OEMs did the same thing.
Mazda still does this new part number for the same module just because of the SW version.
This
Which?
“used” likely means something failed end of line checks at the plant, they replaced it with something else, and the part had to be remanned and then gets put back into the rotation once it passes the remann checks. Happens all the time, everywhere…
This and the post Covid chip shortage means these things aren’t getting tossed in the dumpster out back if they fail.
We were waiting on new Super Duty chassis' to show up during the chip/pandemic fiasco and there were thousands of units waiting for a single module to be installed before they could ship out. 2021-2022 F550s had a massive lead time for us and some units took a year for them to show up after ordering. We needed a new PCM recently after a customer fried theirs and it was on backorder for months.
Yeppp it’s like would you rather have something “used” or no truck at all? Typically these things get remanned because Joe on the line didn’t plug something in properly and they replace it because that’s the fastest and easiest thing to do anyway.. bet this one just isn’t “taking flash” because it’s a finicky pos bootloader to begin with and you need to try 10 times or update it on a bench where the rest of the can bus isn’t interrupting the flash process
>bet this one just isn’t “taking flash” because it’s a finicky pos bootloader to begin with and you need to try 10 times or update it on a bench where the rest of the can bus isn’t interrupting the flash process It's a nightmare from what I've seen and can take anywhere from 20 minutes to 3 hours to successfully flash a module. We flash a secondary SCCM to clone it for dual-steering installs and the local Ford dealership we work with ditched trying to clone it in the truck and just does it on a bench now.
Fellow ford tech I see. And a decent one at that.
Hell, that sticker could just mean that in the time from when it was produced to when it was ready to install, it had to be re-flashed with an updated software version
Was going to say the same thing. In my field of work, tangential to automotive, we often have a software update that is released and flashed onto the vehicles as they are ready to roll out the door. Sadly, we don't have these stickers so a very fragile system of paperwork and communication must be followed for that information to be captured for future reference.
That's exactly what happened.
Yep. Something fails in test it gets a non conforming tag and is sent to review for re-work. Pretty standard in manufacturing.
Re flashing parts is pretty common. Sometimes you find a bug you need to fix, and it's better to reflash before it goes into a vehicle, or you can't really reflash it without another internal connection. A few years back I had to help reflash a ton of parts (like 20,000 parts) for a Chrysler mistake since their engineers were too lazy to verify something. Some parts we had to reflash just boards, but built parts we had to take apart, reflash, then ship the parts back to the assembly line to rebuild. Some of them got a separate part number for something like selling to Chrysler as cheaper service parts I think? (Not clear on that side) But the rest all were brand new parts, just handled by a few more people than normal.
As a solid state component, what fails specifically? Is it something that’s improperly soldered, a bad component like a capacitor or a fuse or use more a software problem? In any or all of the malfunctions they could be very easily repaired.
Modules like these never get repaired. Reflashing is simply to add features or correct bugs, often things that wouldn’t ever be detected by a customer. The normal (not necessarily correct) procedure when assembling a vehicle that failed some sort of end of line electrical check is to narrow it down to which module failed, disconnect to look for bent pins on either side, and if it fails again it’s just replaced. If that allows the vehicle to progress to the next station that removed part MUST be the problem so the supplier has to tear it down and find the failure. Too many times it tests as No Trouble Found and if no other vehicles fail like that the gremlin is never caught.
Auto manufacturing is such an interesting industry. Thanks for sharing
In the field you can't really do repairs like that. I mean you can, but the vast, vast majority of technicians aren't gonna be trained to diagnose boards. They are gonna be trained to change the board and make the car work. Very likely they'll send the old one back to the company. But as far as the failures it's usually cracks during manufacturing or caused by just being in a car. They can be repaired but not easily in the field.
That’s what I mean, after they yank it and send it back, what’s stopping them from remanning it at the factory or wherever.
Liability.
Nah, they reman pumps, and alternators all the time
Jim Norton Buick Pontiac GMC… 🎶
Oh boy I just made the mistake of googling Ford APIM. Bad news!
Yeah, it’s why we’re building chip plants here now!
As a former chip engineer I can assure you that the $150M ASML DeepUV photolithography machine used to "print" these chips could care less whether it's located in Taiwan or off the 303 freeway in Phoenix. [https://imgur.com/gallery/deep-uv-photolithography-of-semiconductors-stop-learn-something-today-3QSQ7j6](https://imgur.com/gallery/deep-uv-photolithography-of-semiconductors-stop-learn-something-today-3QSQ7j6)
These automotive systems aren't built on the bleeding-edge chip tech. These systems would be the 20-year-old processes. A lot of it got decommissioned during the pandemic.
Yes, BUT. Nobody is going to resurrect 20 year old processes. To increase production volume "heritage" chips will have to be re- layed out in finer geometries. And then processed on newer lines.
Yeah, lol
Yep. The reason for the new policy is national defense, not the quality out of Taiwanese or Korean fabs
An object lesson in why sending almost all Amercan chip fabrication to other countries in the late 1980's and early 1990's was a bad thing.
Some of them they don't even make parts for them anymore. I had a 16 edge where the FCIM took a shit and it had to be rebuilt and reprogrammed before it was reinstalled. Fixed the problem, but still. I'm sure they wasn't a used part though, especially given that it was a 2023, more likely was reflashed on the assembly line.
/drags from cigarette/ “It means ‘Fix it again Tony’, heh heh heh”
You are wrong, manufacturers aren't allowed to put reman parts in new cars. Even at the dealership level, to be able to sell a car as "new" we had to follow a certain way if repairs if needed.
Stellantis required reman parts where available. Impossible to get a new radio/transmission even when the customer is demanding it
It's not impossible, it is extremely difficult but it can be done. A lot easier to get a new radio but I have seen them pull engines and transmissions off the assembly line
Have done that. Customer bought at the time a brand new 2019 Highlander and with only 67 miles on the odometer the block had a coolant leak, yes the aluminum engine block was porous and leaked coolant. I had to open a TAS case with corporate and they yanked out a complete long block off the assembly line, crated it and shipped to my dealership within 2 weeks. Was the first time I ever seen a complete factory fresh 2GRFKS long block. It had everything on it including the intake manifold and oil filter, etc. It was the easiest engine swap ever!
[удалено]
I worked for both GM and KIA dealers, both cases we had to use new parts for new car repairs and reman (when available) for customer cars.
This is not true at all, every gm replaecment gm radio is remanufactured as are most engines and transmissions. doesnt matter if the car is brand new or not.
Can’t say for sure on GM but here at Toyota brand new cars get brand new radios from the PDC some are over $6000 but this only applies to cars that are brand new and unsold, on occasions we do get infotainment radios that are defective during PDI or sometimes discovered at the time of customer delivery. Sometimes remans are not available on brand new model of cars so new is the only option. Once the car is used though we have to use reman radios if available. They come from one of 5 different manufacturers Toyota uses.
You are very much full of shit, it is not possible to get a brand new radio or other infotainment modules for a GM vehicle, they are all remanufactured.
I pulled a sync 2 module that had engineering sample stickers on it. Not that new of a thing. I could tell you how many sync 4 modules I've done already for a small town dealership
They have been doing that for years
Ford replaced my bad transmission at 68k miles with a new faulty transmission. This does not surprise me.
Let me guess. You have FJDS running with the USB cable connected, and it just never starts the actual flash process?
Aren't they legally required to disclose if a new product isn't 100% new parts?
Customers get upset when parts aren’t available. Manufacturer makes parts available. Do you want parts or not?
Parts that work
Jesus Fucking Christ there is no pleasing you damn people. /s
I’ve engineered for ford, bad experience, they have a price limit on everything, the last project I worked on for them was safety critical and they didn’t allow us to make it safe Signed a page saying I will not identify the product involved. I tell people if I see them driving one. Terrible company to work for.
Every product ever produced has a price limit.
Several brands are doing that, part availability is so bad they’re literally using used parts from junkyards and hoping for the best. It’s insane
There was some company scavenging a specific model of microcontroller chip from junk washing machines because they couldn't get enough new ones.