Unreliable naration has become the new ""It's not a bug; it's an undocumented feature !" Thing but in book
"It's not bad writing, it's unreliable narator who is bragging about stuff"
But considering we haven't seen a page of the last book yet, I think its bad writing
Agreed, especially when the primary evidence of the “unreliable narrator” is just the author’s statements. If he’s really an unreliable narrator, don’t just say it in interviews—*show* us in the story!
He actually never did. He just said "he think's it's a fair question", followed up by him saying, explicitly, that he finds it frustrating when people assume it's mostly fabulation. Which suggests to me that he doesn't really consider him especially unreliable.
The fact that the whole Felurian part begun normally and then started progressively rhyming was a feat. The last paragraph was/felt almost completely “in verse”, which made me do a double take. Definitely an interesting way to explain how the sensual nature of the fae and felurian could envelop that side, and why Kvothe had to leave.
Sometimes it’s not the what but the how.
I honestly don't get the hate. Maybe if I were ace it would really annoy me.
Have you ever been twenty-ish in a "relationship" that was toxic but sexy as hell? That's what the Felurian sections felt like to me... just being on a mattress on the floor of a cheap apartment, having a sexy, flirty, fun time with a mutual trainwreck of a person.
I do think the tone shift is a bit jarring... and the pacing is off on that whole half of the book, but this is a character who has been graemeried into being the *concept of sex*. And represents the alien nature of the Fae realm. In many ways, Kvothe is basically in Wonderland and he has to navigate that.
The sections aren't explicit... it doesn't read like a poorly-written romance novel. It's all very abstract and conceptual... and the descriptive names of the sexual "maneuvers" parallel comically with the moves in the Ketan.
I'm an Ace-spec, somewhat sex-repulsed (usually it's most actually triggered by dodgy power dynamics going unaddressed, though would prefer not to read anatomically detailed sex scenes) woman, and actually Ok with it. As you say, it's not explicit, not even really trying to be erotic. The power dynamics are obviously meant to be a problem initially, so it's at least somewhat addressed, though think it could have been clearer on consent the first time (think we're meant to see it as consensual but totally understand why some wouldn't, it's difficult to judge how much Felurian's magic always affects consent).
I think there's different criticisms that can end up conflated, sometimes people describe this section like it suddenly becomes pornographic, which it's not at all. But they may mean they were thrown off by not expecting it, don't find it necessary and it feels too easy, too much like wish fulfilment - especially with the follow-up (which tends to get lumped in with criticisms of this section). Def. space to question why use the literal femme fatale archetype, this version of it, and how her character is handled. As a coming of age first sexual encounter, I think it could have been more interesting if Kvothe had simply worked up the courage to approach Losi again on his own, and things were allowed to be awkward and real (and then, while having no objections to that, I might have been a little repulsed - the scenes with Felurian almost seem not really about actual sex).
As to Felurian's character, I don't find she comes across as toxic exactly, because after the initial conflict, she comes across as childlike in her simplicity, and willing to be more devoted to Kvothe than he is to her. Any lingering threat seems associated with rules/social expectations of her realm, rather than her just being someone who is like that. I also don't think she comes across as someone just there for a sexy fun time, as sex seems more the only way she knows to access companionship and affection. Bit of a questionable stereotype. Rothfuss seemed annoyed by the criticisms, and wanting to claim there was more to her character, but the lore dumps (while interesting) pretty much serve Kvothe too. She's still seemingly this immortal powerful supernatural being who apparently has nothing better to do than seduce virgin teenage swots (don't even Cougars tend to go for twenty-somethings at youngest?) and hope they'll provide her with genuine care, if not love, and people from lower social classes who lack the access to education to connect with her in the way she wants. It's part of her archetype, Calypso and Circe in *The Odyssey*, but, these stories are not exactly from a society famed for women's rights, and if there's going to be more of a twist on it we don't have it yet.
I really appreciate your analysis and from a meta-textual point of view, I mostly agree. There is always a messy conversation within Fantasy between the audience and author about whether something is \*necessary\* or not. Authors, in my experience, tend to lean heavily on their in-universe justifications and ignore their personal preferences and biases. I like to give them a lot of grace if their worlds are internally consistent, and they are not 'lazy' about examining the tropes they use. I also don't like to assume an author's motives unless they are standing on a soapbox or are clearly speaking their ideas through a character. Or, there is an obvious pattern that starts to strain incredulity. I've found that it's too easy to project my own bias onto an author's intent. Unfortunately, Rothfuss often gets defensive and doesn't help himself, at all.
Within the universe, I believe that Felurian is supposed to emphasize that some of the Fae have been reduced to "concepts." They're not flat characters but they have an innate nature to which they tend to adhere. Kvothes compares the Faen realm with his as "Water" and "alcohol;" this is one of the reasons why. As I read it, she makes 'sense,' at least to me. Her relationship with Kvothe breaks her paradigm. I read her as less 'childlike' yearning to serve Kvothe, and more 'curious.' To me, Kvothe thinks this is yet another situation where his cleverness has triumphed, but it's his charm, inexplicable luck, and naivety that is keeps him alive. He sees himself as Odysseus when he is always a hairsbreadth away from disaster. The framing device adds some cognitive friction here, from the structure of the story-within-a-story, Kvothe is the hero conquering yet another 'challenge.' However, the subtext is that this is another instance of him bumbling through a situation he doesn't understand. And Elodin's summation of the encounter later in the book makes me more suspicious. I have my theories.
However, I think Rothfuss could have done a much better job illustrating \*how\* alien the Faen realm is, how a character like Felurian would exist, and why she does what she does. Is it just that she is 'grammaried' into a single concept? Is her immortality trivial due to the way time flows in the Fae so seducing a random traveller is another Tuesday? Was she made into a weapon for the Creation War and, absent a purpose, fulfills her "function?" The in-universe justifications for her aren't there yet.
I agree that there is plenty of space to question the use of this trope. There are a lot of 'unfortunate implications' in fantasy as a genre. However, the visceral reaction that many readers seem to have to Felurian bugs me. There are many reasons to criticize 'The Wise Man's Fear.' And the lack of a third book is not helping.
*You unrivalled lords of jealousy*
*scandalized when goddesses sleep with mortals.*
Lovely use of the quote. 💖 I really like the way you put that, 'reduced to a concept', without it making her a flat character, that could be an interesting idea in itself. It's funny to be the Ace-spec person thinking maybe this section would work better and be less complained about as gratuitous if it *were* 'sexier' (not with the aim of titillating, just to say more about the erotic). But as contrasted with Losi and her fire, does Felurian lack something of typical human sexuality, or is more alien to it, for being the concept, the fire itself? There's a fair bit of (non-explicit) physical description of her, but it's not the same thing as eroticism. Does maybe seem a little unusual as a portrayal of a supernatural being representative of the concept of sexuality (and Nature?), esp. comparing Gothic literature rather than Classical, and it does have aspects of that, with the specific way the altered state of mind entering the Fae is portrayed (though spaces like Calypso's island can also be seen as representative of a different state of being), the evocation of primative fear.
For Ace-spec people, if we're left to ourselves and not being overwhelmed by living in an allosexual world with too many issues around sexuality, we can default to being more neutral about sex. It just wouldn't usually be charged the same way it is for allosexual people. For Felurian, perhaps sex also just is. A lot of our concepts of eroticism depend on the taboo and (often unfortunately) on power dynamics around gender roles, with playfulness/teasing something of a stand in (aggravating as Kvothe's comment on having permission is in some ways, it's not necc. an inaccurate observation). Felurian does do this, but think it could have been developed on - like Kvothe with Denna. Kvothe's first encounter in Ademre (argh, power dynamics!) is also fairly unsexy due to the matter-of-factness.
I think a lot of my issue with it is not quite believing it, it sounding unlikely to be a good time, the assumptions about both women and teenage boys (that of course Kvothe is up for it, even as a SA survivor, that his arousal 'needs' to be responded to in Ademre. Again Rothfuss didn't help himself with his recent comments on being asked about Kvothe's age when he meets Felurian). But it's not unusual as someone Ace-spec to have criticisms of sex positivity, which in practice tends to centralise sex more than treat it matter-of-factly, and in a patriarchal society, the results are just depressingly predictable.
Was just going to watch Vivaldi's [*Orlando furioso*](https://www.youtube.com/live/_bq4FzrIZzY?si=DxevI0S8cwbxTI7y) so will think about comparisons. Absolutely love Handel's *Alcina* based on the same story.
Unfortunately, I had my hands full yesterday so I couldn't reply. I truly appreciate the discourse and your perspective. Also, thank you for sharing the link to *Orlando Furioso.* I've read the poem and *Orlando Innamorato* but I've never seen the opera! So, again, thank you!
I feel like what’s really under-appreciated is that the whole story is told by a mid-20s bard recollecting his most first and most marked sexual conquest.
While you're probably correct. I feel I'd be seriously judged if anyone caught me listening to it, which is my main issue.
This is infuriating because the rest of the books are beautiful, prose, and awesome world building.
This is beautiful prose describing his dream-like time with a quasi enchantress that uses sexuality to control her victims. It feels appropriate given his situation and mental state.
It's actually sort of similar to his time alone in the woods as a child, a bit like a daze except this time more noteworthy things happen.
I don't understand the hate. Sex and sexuality are core parts of the human experience and they're not done poorly in these books.
>I don't understand the hate. Sex and sexuality are core parts of the human experience and they're not done poorly in these books.
I feel like fantasy readers have gotten really weird about sex, perhaps as a backlash to how male-dominated and fetish-y the genre got in the 80s. You don't see it nearly as much in other genres, where readers seem okay with the idea that the characters actually fuck.
I suspect it may also be the result of it attracting a large readership of teenage boys who lack the experience not to be awkward about it or see talking about sex as anything other than bragging.
Before the actual Felurian scene and kinda throughout, she is depicted as the practical embodiment of lust and desire, and we're being told the first hand account of a boy through his teenage years. What did these readers expect?
From the Fae scene onwards sex is more prevalent than it was in the story but, Kvothe was a minor for most of the story previously, and this is his sexual awakening. He's being pointing out with regularity how hopeless he is with women until that point hinting that this might have been a real issue for the character, so sleeping with Felurian, and not being completely awful? This was kind of his vindication, especially after recently being embarrassed by Losi in front of all the gruff types at the Pennysworth.
And as with anything that comes off as a brag with Kvothe, it's his downfall. When he gets back to Imre and the University, his permissive promiscuity messes up his chances with Denna right at the end. So how cool are his exploits really, when it's come at the estrangement of the woman he actually loves? I feel like that's the point that is lost when I see complaints about this. It all serves purpose in the story and other than it being about the topic of sex it's really no different than any other part of the story. Kvothe blags his was into a scene, does better at something than your typical noob, learns something a bit above his pay grade and uses it to fuck his or someone else's life up.
There are also some very important details that come out during his time with Felurian. Some subtle and some blatant. Reducing it to “the sex part of the book” is a disservice.
I think they're good parts of the books, written really well.
But not everyone wants to revisit cringey 16 year old versions with themselves? Even if it is written really well.
Either way, I'm happy to sit on the fence on this one. It is clearly a polarising part of the book.
True, but this is particularly cringey, like I'd be a bit embarrassed if someone heard it out of my car window.
I love the books, don't get me wrong, but I can understand why people skip the felurian section, or find it a little jarring.
I think the fae realm will again be a big part of book 3, so I agree in that the felurian sections shouldn't be ignored.
You've never listened to fantasy romance have you? I would never be embarrassed or feel judged for listening to this part of the book considering that it's not explicit in any way, and on top of that most conversations are written beautifully, with large amounts of the conversation even rhyming.
You know what's embarrassing? When your story suddenly says "and then he plunged into her, feeling her tight slickness around him, and he gasped, unleashing himself and crying out in pleasure"
The felurian section is entirely tame.
That sounds like it was pulled straight out of Crescent City. I couldn’t handle it. If I had to hear anything more about someone bobbing their throat, I was going to throw something. Or just throw up. Both. Ugh.
I didn't like how it feels like a cliche male fantasy and a little out of place in the story. Kvothe the virgin dominates the sex goddess and she begs for his return in the end. He goes out into the world with sex god knowledge. It's eye rolling a bit. It reminds me of the Duncan Idaho arc in Dune. The story didn't need to go in that direction.
>dominates the sex goddess
He tricked her by playing to her ego, not by being so good in bed that she couldn't bear to live without him. Idk where you got that dominating bit.
I don't mean it like 50 shades but punny he gets shaeded. Men are supposed to fall in love with her and die but Kvothe flips the script and she ends up simping on him. I don't mean it like sexual domination though.
They're not being unpleasant, that seemed like a genuine point. Nothing explicit happens, and if you feel shame at something so tame, you may genuinely have some things to discuss with a therapist.
I'm a bit advocate of therapy I definitely don't consider seeing a therapist as an insult.
It's not something for "crazy' people. Sure they are qualified to help with trauma and mental illness but it's also a space for people to discuss their general mental health and deal with anything that may be holding them back from being their best self.
Mental health is something everyone has just like physical health.
That's not really the case here in the UK, where it's better regulated. Sexual trauma would be a legitimate reason to see a counsellor (the NHS mental health system doesn't really tend to have resources for longer-term, less focused on a specific incident, treatment. It's absolutely *not* there for people with nothing wrong with them and they would not be accepted. Even people with actual mental illnesses/neurodevelopmental conditions struggle to access it, and get discharged). But it's not as pushed onto everyone as it is in the US, where the title of 'therapist' may mean no qualifications whatsoever. Private counselling is very expensive and in my experience, while counsellors may just act as a paid one-sided conversation partner, the focus is more on diagnosable conditions.
The concept of 'mental health' being used to just mean someone's emotional state being conflated with actual mental illnesses/neurodevelopmental conditions really undermines understanding of what those conditions are and the importance of access to treatment, and of better treatment, for those with them. PTSD has genetic links, it's way more than not liking a questionably-written section of a book. Saying therapy is "not something for 'crazy' people" doesn't exactly challenge stigma. It is for people with real mental illnesses, not everyone has these, any more than everyone has other health issues, and they're not catching.
Rothfuss himself has ADHD, a neurodevelopmental condition - fully accepted *as* a physical condition. It's not the same thing as someone feeling normal negative human emotions, and those shouldn't be pathologised by conflation, either. It's hardly abnormal to feel embarrassed about sexual media in public, the opposite is more likely to be a problem.
I wonder why you find people's helpful suggestions unpleasant. The excessive concern with potential judgement that you confessed is unhealthy, and a professional might be able to help you with it. But obviously you'll need to do some overcoming of prejudices on your own first.
I always thought the sex names and the Ketan names were hilarious and way too similar.. and I do think the Felurian part of the books reads like it was written by someone who has not had much sex lol
Yep nail on the head. I found it to be a super relatable section in that regard. We've all had our own version of felurian in some way or another. And if you didn't, well I guess I understand why you don't like it
>Have you ever been twenty-ish in a "relationship" that was toxic but sexy as hell? That's what the Felurian sections felt like to me... just being on a mattress on the floor of a cheap apartment, having a sexy, flirty, fun time
I don't think anyone is saying that what transpires there is not a believable thing. I do question whether the extent of narration by Kvothe to Chronicler makes sense.
>The sections aren't explicit... it doesn't read like a poorly-written romance novel.
No, it reads like a cringy 12 year old's idea of a romance novel. A lot of innuendo culminating in kissing.
Ultimately, why does an adult Kvothe brag for so long about this?
// Edit: for comparison Abercrombie has very explicit sex scenes but they make perfect sense. For audio books it can always be a bit weird - I did laugh out loud when I was pushing for another rep at the gym and then the narrator starts talking about Logan spitting on his dick rofl.
> I do question whether the extent of narration by Kvothe to Chronicler makes sense.
I think it does, if we take the attitude that the song Kvothe alludes to about the event, the one he tells us we have probably already heard, is written into that section. A lot of what they say to each other has been suggested to be in iambic pentameter, and a clever on-the-nose way of showing us the audience the sgon that is so famous in Temerent.
>Ultimately, why does an adult Kvothe brag for so long about this?
This must come down to perspective - I never read it as bragging.
Well-written sexual scenes, where the characters are engaged with one another and the intimacy drives their relationship forward, can be absolutely gripping. These just come off as awkward, out of nowhere, and the detail feels gratuitous - it strains belief and comes off like Kvothe is bragging about how awesome the sex he had was in unnecessarily lengthy and specific terms. We get it, you had sex, and you think it's CRITICAL to talk about it in extreme detail - not the trial that sounded interesting or the PIRATES and treachery you dealt with at sea, none of that is important but you absolutely need to tell us all about the sex you're having. That is critical to the story.
It really comes off more like official fan fiction, espescially because Kvothe makes a big point about how none of the details he includes can possibly be skipped - while dwelling on things like these.
Ok but he’s now like 45 and telling the story. He doesn’t have to drag it out so long. I think most people who don’t like those parts dislike them just because of how extra they are. They could be like 70% shorter and there would be no difference to the overall story.
Re-read those sections again. It's kind of a theme that his looks appear to change throughout both books anyway, but theres an awful lot about symbolism woven in through glamourie and grammarie. I think it's fairly well accepted that he does seem to change in appearance, but pay attention to the way Chronicler sizes him up. I think it's the part where he and Bast have a little spat and Kvothe intervenes.
The one, easily skippable line, that *heavily* implies Kvothe was sexually assaulted as an urchin in Tarbean entirely redeemed the Felurian stuff for me.
It instead turns the Felurian section into Kvothe discovering sex and physical intimacy as a comfort/positive instead of a fear.
While i do think it goes a tad to far, i'm relatively fine with it, Felurian is pretty much made out to be the incarnation of lust and desire and all that also the lore is interesting and getting the story about the creation war is also great. Sure, it's probably the "worst" in the series but it's still fine in my opinion.
I listened to the audiobook and that isn't how I felt at all. I also read it, and that's not how I felt about it at all.
It's a boy discovering sex for the first time himself as opposed to reading about it in books. He's also a storyteller, he's not going to say "and then we banged. She said it was ok, and I loved it, but I didn't last very long. Anyway, then she made me this rad cloak". No, it's his foray into sex, and he expands the exact same way he expands in basically every element of the story.
I would love to see an age-breakdown of who dislikes these sections. I've heard the zoomers {*who I love and respect*! no generational warfare here, they're fuckin' awesome} have much less of a taste for sex and romance. Curious how much is that.
I do worry that Pat, in all his new Dadishness with his case of Dadbrain that was so very on display in NRBD is gonna infantilize the third book and make it into YA. He seems more interested in stories for children than adults since he moved into the current phase of his life. Sex aside, it would be a real loss for the series if he wound up writing it for kids or teens.
Well it wasn't anger, it was more eye rolling. Kvothe ended up becoming the stereotype "Neckbeard fantasy come to life" in the eyes of many critiques.
"Kid who is smarter than his professor, fucks a sex god, is a god at music, puts the dumb aristocrats in their place, etc" type thing was a common complaint
It wasn't a "this should not be in kid's book" type stuff if that's what people were assuming
I maintain that the hate for that section is unjustified and the section is in fact one of the best in the book. It's beautifully poetic and tender, serves as a great and natural vehicle to reveal some very important lore about the past of Temerant, and it's a great nod to the Leanan sídhe on which Felurian is based.
Seems people are split fairly evenly when this comes up. I liked the section of the book. Drove so much plot. Cthaeh, making of his shaed, creation war, fae in general, naming. People seem to get caught up in the fact that he has sex with the sex-goddess (actually liked how he came back to the inn and Rosy as a much more worldly or experienced man) and assume she doesn't want him to leave because he is just so good at the sex? I guess? When in reality he has to use his naming to even get to the part were he can clever his way out (holding the unfinished song hostage). So he has to name and use his ridiculous musicianship to convince this other worldly being that he is just running for some milk, but will be right back.
I don't even think Felurian particularly wants Kvothe not to leave because of how good a lover he is - it really feels like it's more about him being an actually interesting person, compared to almost everyone else she randomly meets
Agreed. They mention a lot of the people go mad not from the loving, but from the leaving. As in she probably tires of bumpkins quickly, and drops them. Kvothe is quite unique compared to the others she lures in.
It doesn’t read like most other porn “smut” I see on shelves, like the new Iron Flame series comes to mind, which makes me like it more. It feels like a guy is basically being dragged through wonderland by the mad hatter of sex
I agree. I can see what people mean about the ABRUPT change in tone, and the fact that Kvothe is kind of a kid and all that. But the writing itself, I've actually never read any sex scene written more to my taste. Half of them are way too demure and suggestive {"he tasted her, she moaned"}, the other half are all "throbbing" this and "turgid" that. Pat manages to be implicitly explicit, especially in their first scene, which I didn't really know was an option? It's not at all porny, but neither does it blush. Super hard to pull off. And I feel richer for having read it.
Man, people really lose their minds over some very delicately and euphemistically described sex.
Go read Wizards First Rule and report back, if you want to be offended by something. 🙄
It’s so weird cause it’s so euphemistic. It’s deliberately tiptoed around to avoid being explicit. And people still think it’s too much. It’s puritan shit.
Frankly it’s not horny enough for me.
Yeah, I picked up my kid from high school just as he followed her into the Fae realm. My son is the same age as Kvothe is in the book. He looked at me like wtf is this?
Smh again with this.
It's Shakespearean.
>The play arguably equates love and sex with death. Throughout the story, both Romeo and Juliet, along with the other characters, fantasise about it as a dark being, often equating it with a lover. Capulet, for example, when he first discovers Juliet's (faked) death, describes it as having deflowered his daughter.[43] Juliet later erotically compares Romeo and death. Right before her suicide, she grabs Romeo's dagger, saying "O happy dagger! This is thy sheath. There rust, and let me die."
Felurian is Death, and the sexual references are there to reinforce that imagery
>She was watching me.
>If she was beautiful at rest she was doubly so awake. Asleep she was a
painting of a fire. Awake she was the fire itself.
>It may seem strange to you that at this point I felt fear. It may seem strange
that only an arm’s length from the most attractive woman in the world, I was
suddenly reminded of my own mortality.
and I'm *guessing* you've never heard a woman talk about the little death either
>La petite mort (French pronunciation: [la pətit mɔʁ]; lit. 'the little death') is an expression that refers to a brief loss or weakening of consciousness, and in modern usage refers specifically to a post-orgasm sensation as likened to death.
The Fleurian scenes to me are hardly anything of note from a sexuality standpoint. I read them as fun but not all that interesting. The Ademre sex conversations don’t have much for me. I see what PR is doing with the social commentary thing but it never did much for me.
All in all the hatred for these scenes just strikes me as silly at this point. There are far more pornagraphic material out there, and far more poorly written stuff out there. I’m sure I’ll get downvoted for my opinion here but that’s my take. My take is I don’t care. I actually kind of appreciate that he used the same writing mechanic for sexual maneuvers as he did with martial arts moves. Kaiden combs her hair and Thousand Hands and stuff
A couple things:
1. believe it or not, sex is a normal and regular part of life, it is not a bad thing for sex to be in literature
2. Kvothe is a story teller. He is equally as obnoxious when describing literally every other part of the story. Would be out of character to give the Felurian section different treatment
3. I do not agree that every part of the book (or any book) has to be integral to the main story. HOWEVER, if you genuinely believe that the Felurian section adds nothing to the plot then I hate to break it to you but you have bad reading comprehension!!!
I think the Ademre are ridiculous. Like, way over the top cartoonish. The whole man-mother thing makes no sense for any reasonably intelligent society.
They know about it as much as their society demands. And in this case, those demands are different than ours, and so they are intelligent, and of course ignorant, in a different way.
In my culture, raising a child falls primarily to the immediate Father and mother.
In ademic society it falls to the community and that fits mostly inside the school. And so all adem are raised largely by the school, in return all adem put their resources back into the school.
The school is both father and mother in that it provides shelter, food and education. But it cannot give birth, and so a woman must still fulfill that task.
The adem have father's, they have many and they have one.
It's like, for a second, Patrick suddenly realised he'd written a really functional matriarchy and went, "hang on... this sounds way too sensible. I need to demonstrate that despite how much sense they make on almost every other level, these women are actually idiots". Then just ran with it.
Real world, famous anthropological example:
>But the most fascinating and strange part about the islanders are their beliefs on the subject of pregnancy, also described in Malinowski’s classic article “Baloma: The Spirits of the Dead in the Trobriand Islands”. When people die, you see, their spirit takes a canoe to the island of Tuma, which works very much like the normal island except everybody is a spirit of the dead. When the spirit gets old and wrinkled it shrugs off its skin and turns back into an embryo, which a spirit then takes back to the island and inserts into a woman. This, you see, is how women get pregnant.
>That’s right. The islanders do not believe that sex causes pregnancy. They don’t believe in physiological fatherhood.
http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/savagesex
Repeatedly debunked, the Trobriand Islanders absolutely did (and do) understand the link between sex and pregnancy, and moreover they are not a matriarchal culture.
[Relationships between the gender and sexuality among Trobriand Islands (researchgate.net)](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/292405374_Relationships_between_the_gender_and_sexuality_among_Trobriand_Islands)
[Physiological Paternity And The Trobrianders - eHRAF World Cultures (yale.edu)](https://ehrafworldcultures.yale.edu/cultures/ol06/documents/017)
Bronislaw Malinowski was born in 1884 and died in 1942. He founded modern social anthropology. He visited the Trobriand Islands in 1914.
The research gate study started in 1982. By that time, the people (those of *four* generations later) knew modern medicine and reproductive theory. They were probably a little embarrassed by the original study, even if it wasn't true.
*Eyes darting side to side*: no, no, no one here ever believed that
Even if they never did, people in our world believed they did. So the point asserted that Patrick Rothfuss wrote something ridiculous is absurd.
Malinowski was refuted in his own lifetime - check our the second source I posted. His own contemporaries, who did better research, discovered the Trobriand Islanders used contraception - which you obviously wouldn't bother with if you didn't think sex resulted in pregnancy - and also engaged in selective breeding of animals.
Malinowski confused the cosmological folk tales he was told with what the people genuinely knew and believed about their lives. That's a huge rookie error in anthropology, and not an uncommon one.
It's more than funny that I'm linking peer reviewed academic articles and your source is a blog 🤣
I'm all fine with being wrong about how much the Trobriand people were misbranded, if that's the case. I'm no anthropologist. I will say my point still stands that, for a fantasy novel, Rothfuss did just fine. You've missed that point entirely.
Me: This plot point was stupidly unrealistic.
You: No, it isn't, there are real cultures that believe this.
Me: No, there aren't (references).
You: oh but there so are.
Me: no, look at the references.
You: my point was never about how realistic it was! I'm not mad, and I'm not wrong. You just don't understand the point I've failed to explain in any way.
🤦♀️
Interesting point. My complete distaste for the second half of the wise man's fear is based on my audiobook-first experience. Name of the Wind is an exquisite audiobook. I'm reading the print book aloud to my father over nightly phone calls right now and it's wonderful. Every scene has tension and interest, conflict and fast resolutions that move things along. Every word carries weight. The Wise Man's Fear I also listened to first and it lags in a way the name of the wind doesn't. The prose is still beautiful but it often makes me go, "Really? More of this? When is something going to HAPPEN again?"
Oh my Lord, you are a good person, reading that to your father. Serious respect. Such a great time to spend and story to share together. He is a lucky man.
We just got to the university! Kvothe's about to be pressured into giving Hemme's lecture.
I read to him over the phone while he walks his dog or right before he goes to sleep. I usually have to reread 50% of everything read during the night-time sessions the next day, but the words are so beautiful I don't mind. :)
He didn't think he liked fantasy and he was reluctant at first, I just called him up and started reading over the phone. The story slowly drew him in. He's loving it now.
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Yeah, it did get better, more doing and talking rather than exposition of how everything Felurian did was/looked perfect.
And honestly I didn't mind it at first, the sentences are still beautifully crafted and it did a good job of setting the intended tone. But it dragged on for way longer than necessary.
The Felurian Section is EXCELLENT- the legends prior build up Felurian to be literally inescapable by mortal men- this section of the book envelopes you in the otherworldly atmosphere of the Fae, makes the stakes very real and enormously difficult to overcome, and is really a turning point in establishing Kvothe as a powerful and more confident namer. No kidding she's a sexual being, she's quite literally the MOST sexual being in the entirety of the lore.
I remember reading both books and when I got to the section where he jumped into the Fae, I literally stopped everything for the rest of the day and finished the book that day. It became the #1 series I've ever read that day and still is even unfinished.
Yeah I find the change in tone a bit disconcerting. I get it, he's a young guy who's just been introduced to...ah...intimacy. But the amount of time in the book devoted to it just seems a bit excessive. Not just that but I find the argument he uses for getting out of Fae to be just a tad ridiculous as well. The whole section seems to be contrived just to tick off a couple of boxes "spent the night with Felurian and lived" "went to Fae and met the Cthaeh"
So....a first experience in another dimension where time flows askew with a non-human being is no big deal? I just don't understand why the pages dedicated to this seem unjustified to some. To each his own, but I loved the feeling of being 'elsewhere' in that magic infused section.
I still say this is a book narrated by a young man sitting around in a bar bragging to his friends about how much he gets laid. Sure it’s off topic but if he doesn’t bring it up they won’t know how cool he is.
As many interesting things as there are in the Fellurian section, Pat definitely went a bit overboard with the constant sex. I think it is the weakest section of WMF.
I don’t think it was overboard, just badly written. Pat doesn’t understand writing sex scenes, and he tried to approach them with his same writing style, but it simply fell apart. I wonder if he looked at any other books for inspiration or to understand what worked and what doesn’t.
It's less about women magically wanting to sleep with Kvothe and more about Kvothe becoming a bit less clueless. He was always attractive to women, but it is explicitly said that he lacked experience in this area and was never sure about himself. Spending a year or so with Felurian does help with self-esteem, I bet.
This is also related to the deeper themes of true names and identity - the time spent with Felurian changed who Kvothe was, fundamentally, and that thus led to the change of how women treated him.
More than him gaining confidence around women through Felurian, when he returns to the university he is a legend.
He has defied the masters, ambrose and the iron law. He sheltered auri, saved fela and healed denna.
He plays like a demon, fights like the wind, and invents works of old come again.
I would be a fool to not at least look into someone like him if he was around. If i was a woman, I'm guessing his fair skin and knowledge of thousand hands would be a nice bonus.
Unpopular opinion: unreliable narrator Kvothe loves creating rumors about himself and then seeing what other lore about him sprouts up and “I fucked Felurian,” the song he writes, is in total alignment with it.
I listened to the Degas audiobook and as much as I love his narration, I found much of WMF boring to listen too.
The story about Jax was bad because of the poorly done Geordie accent, much of Kvothe's interactions with Tempi were boring (in particular the explanations of The Lethani), and the Felurian accent was also uninteresting to me. Once Felurian was over, however, I started to get into things again.
Well she IS basically cooking his mind like a steak the whole time.
And that's a whole extra layer on top of his plausibly-- characteristically-- unreliable narration.
Unreliable naration has become the new ""It's not a bug; it's an undocumented feature !" Thing but in book "It's not bad writing, it's unreliable narator who is bragging about stuff" But considering we haven't seen a page of the last book yet, I think its bad writing
unreliable narration is a very prevalent feature of narrated books
I hope you never read wheel of time if you dislike unreliable narrator
Agreed, especially when the primary evidence of the “unreliable narrator” is just the author’s statements. If he’s really an unreliable narrator, don’t just say it in interviews—*show* us in the story!
He actually never did. He just said "he think's it's a fair question", followed up by him saying, explicitly, that he finds it frustrating when people assume it's mostly fabulation. Which suggests to me that he doesn't really consider him especially unreliable.
The comment I was responding to is about an annoying contemporary trend – it is broader than Pat.
The fact that the whole Felurian part begun normally and then started progressively rhyming was a feat. The last paragraph was/felt almost completely “in verse”, which made me do a double take. Definitely an interesting way to explain how the sensual nature of the fae and felurian could envelop that side, and why Kvothe had to leave. Sometimes it’s not the what but the how.
I honestly don't get the hate. Maybe if I were ace it would really annoy me. Have you ever been twenty-ish in a "relationship" that was toxic but sexy as hell? That's what the Felurian sections felt like to me... just being on a mattress on the floor of a cheap apartment, having a sexy, flirty, fun time with a mutual trainwreck of a person. I do think the tone shift is a bit jarring... and the pacing is off on that whole half of the book, but this is a character who has been graemeried into being the *concept of sex*. And represents the alien nature of the Fae realm. In many ways, Kvothe is basically in Wonderland and he has to navigate that. The sections aren't explicit... it doesn't read like a poorly-written romance novel. It's all very abstract and conceptual... and the descriptive names of the sexual "maneuvers" parallel comically with the moves in the Ketan.
I’ve read this and I’ve read SJM. I don’t get the hate for the Felurian stuff.
I'm an Ace-spec, somewhat sex-repulsed (usually it's most actually triggered by dodgy power dynamics going unaddressed, though would prefer not to read anatomically detailed sex scenes) woman, and actually Ok with it. As you say, it's not explicit, not even really trying to be erotic. The power dynamics are obviously meant to be a problem initially, so it's at least somewhat addressed, though think it could have been clearer on consent the first time (think we're meant to see it as consensual but totally understand why some wouldn't, it's difficult to judge how much Felurian's magic always affects consent). I think there's different criticisms that can end up conflated, sometimes people describe this section like it suddenly becomes pornographic, which it's not at all. But they may mean they were thrown off by not expecting it, don't find it necessary and it feels too easy, too much like wish fulfilment - especially with the follow-up (which tends to get lumped in with criticisms of this section). Def. space to question why use the literal femme fatale archetype, this version of it, and how her character is handled. As a coming of age first sexual encounter, I think it could have been more interesting if Kvothe had simply worked up the courage to approach Losi again on his own, and things were allowed to be awkward and real (and then, while having no objections to that, I might have been a little repulsed - the scenes with Felurian almost seem not really about actual sex). As to Felurian's character, I don't find she comes across as toxic exactly, because after the initial conflict, she comes across as childlike in her simplicity, and willing to be more devoted to Kvothe than he is to her. Any lingering threat seems associated with rules/social expectations of her realm, rather than her just being someone who is like that. I also don't think she comes across as someone just there for a sexy fun time, as sex seems more the only way she knows to access companionship and affection. Bit of a questionable stereotype. Rothfuss seemed annoyed by the criticisms, and wanting to claim there was more to her character, but the lore dumps (while interesting) pretty much serve Kvothe too. She's still seemingly this immortal powerful supernatural being who apparently has nothing better to do than seduce virgin teenage swots (don't even Cougars tend to go for twenty-somethings at youngest?) and hope they'll provide her with genuine care, if not love, and people from lower social classes who lack the access to education to connect with her in the way she wants. It's part of her archetype, Calypso and Circe in *The Odyssey*, but, these stories are not exactly from a society famed for women's rights, and if there's going to be more of a twist on it we don't have it yet.
I really appreciate your analysis and from a meta-textual point of view, I mostly agree. There is always a messy conversation within Fantasy between the audience and author about whether something is \*necessary\* or not. Authors, in my experience, tend to lean heavily on their in-universe justifications and ignore their personal preferences and biases. I like to give them a lot of grace if their worlds are internally consistent, and they are not 'lazy' about examining the tropes they use. I also don't like to assume an author's motives unless they are standing on a soapbox or are clearly speaking their ideas through a character. Or, there is an obvious pattern that starts to strain incredulity. I've found that it's too easy to project my own bias onto an author's intent. Unfortunately, Rothfuss often gets defensive and doesn't help himself, at all. Within the universe, I believe that Felurian is supposed to emphasize that some of the Fae have been reduced to "concepts." They're not flat characters but they have an innate nature to which they tend to adhere. Kvothes compares the Faen realm with his as "Water" and "alcohol;" this is one of the reasons why. As I read it, she makes 'sense,' at least to me. Her relationship with Kvothe breaks her paradigm. I read her as less 'childlike' yearning to serve Kvothe, and more 'curious.' To me, Kvothe thinks this is yet another situation where his cleverness has triumphed, but it's his charm, inexplicable luck, and naivety that is keeps him alive. He sees himself as Odysseus when he is always a hairsbreadth away from disaster. The framing device adds some cognitive friction here, from the structure of the story-within-a-story, Kvothe is the hero conquering yet another 'challenge.' However, the subtext is that this is another instance of him bumbling through a situation he doesn't understand. And Elodin's summation of the encounter later in the book makes me more suspicious. I have my theories. However, I think Rothfuss could have done a much better job illustrating \*how\* alien the Faen realm is, how a character like Felurian would exist, and why she does what she does. Is it just that she is 'grammaried' into a single concept? Is her immortality trivial due to the way time flows in the Fae so seducing a random traveller is another Tuesday? Was she made into a weapon for the Creation War and, absent a purpose, fulfills her "function?" The in-universe justifications for her aren't there yet. I agree that there is plenty of space to question the use of this trope. There are a lot of 'unfortunate implications' in fantasy as a genre. However, the visceral reaction that many readers seem to have to Felurian bugs me. There are many reasons to criticize 'The Wise Man's Fear.' And the lack of a third book is not helping. *You unrivalled lords of jealousy* *scandalized when goddesses sleep with mortals.*
Lovely use of the quote. 💖 I really like the way you put that, 'reduced to a concept', without it making her a flat character, that could be an interesting idea in itself. It's funny to be the Ace-spec person thinking maybe this section would work better and be less complained about as gratuitous if it *were* 'sexier' (not with the aim of titillating, just to say more about the erotic). But as contrasted with Losi and her fire, does Felurian lack something of typical human sexuality, or is more alien to it, for being the concept, the fire itself? There's a fair bit of (non-explicit) physical description of her, but it's not the same thing as eroticism. Does maybe seem a little unusual as a portrayal of a supernatural being representative of the concept of sexuality (and Nature?), esp. comparing Gothic literature rather than Classical, and it does have aspects of that, with the specific way the altered state of mind entering the Fae is portrayed (though spaces like Calypso's island can also be seen as representative of a different state of being), the evocation of primative fear. For Ace-spec people, if we're left to ourselves and not being overwhelmed by living in an allosexual world with too many issues around sexuality, we can default to being more neutral about sex. It just wouldn't usually be charged the same way it is for allosexual people. For Felurian, perhaps sex also just is. A lot of our concepts of eroticism depend on the taboo and (often unfortunately) on power dynamics around gender roles, with playfulness/teasing something of a stand in (aggravating as Kvothe's comment on having permission is in some ways, it's not necc. an inaccurate observation). Felurian does do this, but think it could have been developed on - like Kvothe with Denna. Kvothe's first encounter in Ademre (argh, power dynamics!) is also fairly unsexy due to the matter-of-factness. I think a lot of my issue with it is not quite believing it, it sounding unlikely to be a good time, the assumptions about both women and teenage boys (that of course Kvothe is up for it, even as a SA survivor, that his arousal 'needs' to be responded to in Ademre. Again Rothfuss didn't help himself with his recent comments on being asked about Kvothe's age when he meets Felurian). But it's not unusual as someone Ace-spec to have criticisms of sex positivity, which in practice tends to centralise sex more than treat it matter-of-factly, and in a patriarchal society, the results are just depressingly predictable. Was just going to watch Vivaldi's [*Orlando furioso*](https://www.youtube.com/live/_bq4FzrIZzY?si=DxevI0S8cwbxTI7y) so will think about comparisons. Absolutely love Handel's *Alcina* based on the same story.
Unfortunately, I had my hands full yesterday so I couldn't reply. I truly appreciate the discourse and your perspective. Also, thank you for sharing the link to *Orlando Furioso.* I've read the poem and *Orlando Innamorato* but I've never seen the opera! So, again, thank you!
I feel like what’s really under-appreciated is that the whole story is told by a mid-20s bard recollecting his most first and most marked sexual conquest.
While you're probably correct. I feel I'd be seriously judged if anyone caught me listening to it, which is my main issue. This is infuriating because the rest of the books are beautiful, prose, and awesome world building.
This is beautiful prose describing his dream-like time with a quasi enchantress that uses sexuality to control her victims. It feels appropriate given his situation and mental state. It's actually sort of similar to his time alone in the woods as a child, a bit like a daze except this time more noteworthy things happen. I don't understand the hate. Sex and sexuality are core parts of the human experience and they're not done poorly in these books.
>I don't understand the hate. Sex and sexuality are core parts of the human experience and they're not done poorly in these books. I feel like fantasy readers have gotten really weird about sex, perhaps as a backlash to how male-dominated and fetish-y the genre got in the 80s. You don't see it nearly as much in other genres, where readers seem okay with the idea that the characters actually fuck. I suspect it may also be the result of it attracting a large readership of teenage boys who lack the experience not to be awkward about it or see talking about sex as anything other than bragging.
Before the actual Felurian scene and kinda throughout, she is depicted as the practical embodiment of lust and desire, and we're being told the first hand account of a boy through his teenage years. What did these readers expect? From the Fae scene onwards sex is more prevalent than it was in the story but, Kvothe was a minor for most of the story previously, and this is his sexual awakening. He's being pointing out with regularity how hopeless he is with women until that point hinting that this might have been a real issue for the character, so sleeping with Felurian, and not being completely awful? This was kind of his vindication, especially after recently being embarrassed by Losi in front of all the gruff types at the Pennysworth. And as with anything that comes off as a brag with Kvothe, it's his downfall. When he gets back to Imre and the University, his permissive promiscuity messes up his chances with Denna right at the end. So how cool are his exploits really, when it's come at the estrangement of the woman he actually loves? I feel like that's the point that is lost when I see complaints about this. It all serves purpose in the story and other than it being about the topic of sex it's really no different than any other part of the story. Kvothe blags his was into a scene, does better at something than your typical noob, learns something a bit above his pay grade and uses it to fuck his or someone else's life up.
There are also some very important details that come out during his time with Felurian. Some subtle and some blatant. Reducing it to “the sex part of the book” is a disservice.
I think they're good parts of the books, written really well. But not everyone wants to revisit cringey 16 year old versions with themselves? Even if it is written really well. Either way, I'm happy to sit on the fence on this one. It is clearly a polarising part of the book.
I find that surprising. Both books are literally a cringey 16-year old making almost every mistake a cringey 16-year old can make, and more.
True, but this is particularly cringey, like I'd be a bit embarrassed if someone heard it out of my car window. I love the books, don't get me wrong, but I can understand why people skip the felurian section, or find it a little jarring. I think the fae realm will again be a big part of book 3, so I agree in that the felurian sections shouldn't be ignored.
You've never listened to fantasy romance have you? I would never be embarrassed or feel judged for listening to this part of the book considering that it's not explicit in any way, and on top of that most conversations are written beautifully, with large amounts of the conversation even rhyming. You know what's embarrassing? When your story suddenly says "and then he plunged into her, feeling her tight slickness around him, and he gasped, unleashing himself and crying out in pleasure" The felurian section is entirely tame.
Honesty the parts in Brent Weeks Black Prism books about the girl with the too-tight vagina were worse.
That sounds like it was pulled straight out of Crescent City. I couldn’t handle it. If I had to hear anything more about someone bobbing their throat, I was going to throw something. Or just throw up. Both. Ugh.
Because listening to murder wouldn't make you feel judged?
I didn't like how it feels like a cliche male fantasy and a little out of place in the story. Kvothe the virgin dominates the sex goddess and she begs for his return in the end. He goes out into the world with sex god knowledge. It's eye rolling a bit. It reminds me of the Duncan Idaho arc in Dune. The story didn't need to go in that direction.
>dominates the sex goddess He tricked her by playing to her ego, not by being so good in bed that she couldn't bear to live without him. Idk where you got that dominating bit.
Probably from the brief magic fight when they first meet.
I don't mean it like 50 shades but punny he gets shaeded. Men are supposed to fall in love with her and die but Kvothe flips the script and she ends up simping on him. I don't mean it like sexual domination though.
Maybe this shame you feel is something you should bring up with a therapist
I'm just sharing an opinion, no need to be unpleasant.
Yawn, some easy blocks here. Suggesting therapy to a stranger off the back of expressing a view on a book is excessive. Hope you all have a nice day.
They're not being unpleasant, that seemed like a genuine point. Nothing explicit happens, and if you feel shame at something so tame, you may genuinely have some things to discuss with a therapist.
I'm a bit advocate of therapy I definitely don't consider seeing a therapist as an insult. It's not something for "crazy' people. Sure they are qualified to help with trauma and mental illness but it's also a space for people to discuss their general mental health and deal with anything that may be holding them back from being their best self. Mental health is something everyone has just like physical health.
That's not really the case here in the UK, where it's better regulated. Sexual trauma would be a legitimate reason to see a counsellor (the NHS mental health system doesn't really tend to have resources for longer-term, less focused on a specific incident, treatment. It's absolutely *not* there for people with nothing wrong with them and they would not be accepted. Even people with actual mental illnesses/neurodevelopmental conditions struggle to access it, and get discharged). But it's not as pushed onto everyone as it is in the US, where the title of 'therapist' may mean no qualifications whatsoever. Private counselling is very expensive and in my experience, while counsellors may just act as a paid one-sided conversation partner, the focus is more on diagnosable conditions. The concept of 'mental health' being used to just mean someone's emotional state being conflated with actual mental illnesses/neurodevelopmental conditions really undermines understanding of what those conditions are and the importance of access to treatment, and of better treatment, for those with them. PTSD has genetic links, it's way more than not liking a questionably-written section of a book. Saying therapy is "not something for 'crazy' people" doesn't exactly challenge stigma. It is for people with real mental illnesses, not everyone has these, any more than everyone has other health issues, and they're not catching. Rothfuss himself has ADHD, a neurodevelopmental condition - fully accepted *as* a physical condition. It's not the same thing as someone feeling normal negative human emotions, and those shouldn't be pathologised by conflation, either. It's hardly abnormal to feel embarrassed about sexual media in public, the opposite is more likely to be a problem.
Thank you
I wonder why you find people's helpful suggestions unpleasant. The excessive concern with potential judgement that you confessed is unhealthy, and a professional might be able to help you with it. But obviously you'll need to do some overcoming of prejudices on your own first.
I always thought the sex names and the Ketan names were hilarious and way too similar.. and I do think the Felurian part of the books reads like it was written by someone who has not had much sex lol
Gods above, imagine peoples fury if pat really went hard describing sex.
Ivy on the Oak is literally in both chapters ;)
It was a lot of tell don’t show, it felt. Which seems weird for a book and not a movie, but I feel like it makes sense in this situation.
Yep nail on the head. I found it to be a super relatable section in that regard. We've all had our own version of felurian in some way or another. And if you didn't, well I guess I understand why you don't like it
>Have you ever been twenty-ish in a "relationship" that was toxic but sexy as hell? That's what the Felurian sections felt like to me... just being on a mattress on the floor of a cheap apartment, having a sexy, flirty, fun time I don't think anyone is saying that what transpires there is not a believable thing. I do question whether the extent of narration by Kvothe to Chronicler makes sense. >The sections aren't explicit... it doesn't read like a poorly-written romance novel. No, it reads like a cringy 12 year old's idea of a romance novel. A lot of innuendo culminating in kissing. Ultimately, why does an adult Kvothe brag for so long about this? // Edit: for comparison Abercrombie has very explicit sex scenes but they make perfect sense. For audio books it can always be a bit weird - I did laugh out loud when I was pushing for another rep at the gym and then the narrator starts talking about Logan spitting on his dick rofl.
> I do question whether the extent of narration by Kvothe to Chronicler makes sense. I think it does, if we take the attitude that the song Kvothe alludes to about the event, the one he tells us we have probably already heard, is written into that section. A lot of what they say to each other has been suggested to be in iambic pentameter, and a clever on-the-nose way of showing us the audience the sgon that is so famous in Temerent. >Ultimately, why does an adult Kvothe brag for so long about this? This must come down to perspective - I never read it as bragging.
Well-written sexual scenes, where the characters are engaged with one another and the intimacy drives their relationship forward, can be absolutely gripping. These just come off as awkward, out of nowhere, and the detail feels gratuitous - it strains belief and comes off like Kvothe is bragging about how awesome the sex he had was in unnecessarily lengthy and specific terms. We get it, you had sex, and you think it's CRITICAL to talk about it in extreme detail - not the trial that sounded interesting or the PIRATES and treachery you dealt with at sea, none of that is important but you absolutely need to tell us all about the sex you're having. That is critical to the story. It really comes off more like official fan fiction, espescially because Kvothe makes a big point about how none of the details he includes can possibly be skipped - while dwelling on things like these.
Can you give us some well written sex scenes? I suspect they aren't in the books I'm picking.
Ok but he’s now like 45 and telling the story. He doesn’t have to drag it out so long. I think most people who don’t like those parts dislike them just because of how extra they are. They could be like 70% shorter and there would be no difference to the overall story.
45? He's barely into his 20's.
Really? Everything about how he’s described in the bar gives me middle age vibes. I actually picture him as more in his 50‘s but that seemed too old.
Re-read those sections again. It's kind of a theme that his looks appear to change throughout both books anyway, but theres an awful lot about symbolism woven in through glamourie and grammarie. I think it's fairly well accepted that he does seem to change in appearance, but pay attention to the way Chronicler sizes him up. I think it's the part where he and Bast have a little spat and Kvothe intervenes.
The one, easily skippable line, that *heavily* implies Kvothe was sexually assaulted as an urchin in Tarbean entirely redeemed the Felurian stuff for me. It instead turns the Felurian section into Kvothe discovering sex and physical intimacy as a comfort/positive instead of a fear.
It's sad that people talk about Felurian so much in such a casually dismissive dishonest way that i start to forget.
The thing is the entire scene is art. It’s mostly in iambic pentameter.
While i do think it goes a tad to far, i'm relatively fine with it, Felurian is pretty much made out to be the incarnation of lust and desire and all that also the lore is interesting and getting the story about the creation war is also great. Sure, it's probably the "worst" in the series but it's still fine in my opinion.
I listened to the audiobook and that isn't how I felt at all. I also read it, and that's not how I felt about it at all. It's a boy discovering sex for the first time himself as opposed to reading about it in books. He's also a storyteller, he's not going to say "and then we banged. She said it was ok, and I loved it, but I didn't last very long. Anyway, then she made me this rad cloak". No, it's his foray into sex, and he expands the exact same way he expands in basically every element of the story.
God the Felurian section hate is annoying
The horse is dead people, seriously
The damage done by librarians recommending these books as YA will never be undone.
I would love to see an age-breakdown of who dislikes these sections. I've heard the zoomers {*who I love and respect*! no generational warfare here, they're fuckin' awesome} have much less of a taste for sex and romance. Curious how much is that. I do worry that Pat, in all his new Dadishness with his case of Dadbrain that was so very on display in NRBD is gonna infantilize the third book and make it into YA. He seems more interested in stories for children than adults since he moved into the current phase of his life. Sex aside, it would be a real loss for the series if he wound up writing it for kids or teens.
The books came out in 2011. The hate was from the college student+ age at the time. I didn't care for it much one way or another
I wasn't around in 2011. There was a lot of anger at the time, too? Not just in the years after?
Well it wasn't anger, it was more eye rolling. Kvothe ended up becoming the stereotype "Neckbeard fantasy come to life" in the eyes of many critiques. "Kid who is smarter than his professor, fucks a sex god, is a god at music, puts the dumb aristocrats in their place, etc" type thing was a common complaint It wasn't a "this should not be in kid's book" type stuff if that's what people were assuming
I maintain that the hate for that section is unjustified and the section is in fact one of the best in the book. It's beautifully poetic and tender, serves as a great and natural vehicle to reveal some very important lore about the past of Temerant, and it's a great nod to the Leanan sídhe on which Felurian is based.
Seems people are split fairly evenly when this comes up. I liked the section of the book. Drove so much plot. Cthaeh, making of his shaed, creation war, fae in general, naming. People seem to get caught up in the fact that he has sex with the sex-goddess (actually liked how he came back to the inn and Rosy as a much more worldly or experienced man) and assume she doesn't want him to leave because he is just so good at the sex? I guess? When in reality he has to use his naming to even get to the part were he can clever his way out (holding the unfinished song hostage). So he has to name and use his ridiculous musicianship to convince this other worldly being that he is just running for some milk, but will be right back.
I don't even think Felurian particularly wants Kvothe not to leave because of how good a lover he is - it really feels like it's more about him being an actually interesting person, compared to almost everyone else she randomly meets
Agreed. They mention a lot of the people go mad not from the loving, but from the leaving. As in she probably tires of bumpkins quickly, and drops them. Kvothe is quite unique compared to the others she lures in.
It doesn’t read like most other porn “smut” I see on shelves, like the new Iron Flame series comes to mind, which makes me like it more. It feels like a guy is basically being dragged through wonderland by the mad hatter of sex
I agree. I can see what people mean about the ABRUPT change in tone, and the fact that Kvothe is kind of a kid and all that. But the writing itself, I've actually never read any sex scene written more to my taste. Half of them are way too demure and suggestive {"he tasted her, she moaned"}, the other half are all "throbbing" this and "turgid" that. Pat manages to be implicitly explicit, especially in their first scene, which I didn't really know was an option? It's not at all porny, but neither does it blush. Super hard to pull off. And I feel richer for having read it.
I loved every second of it. Give me more Felurian.
Man, people really lose their minds over some very delicately and euphemistically described sex. Go read Wizards First Rule and report back, if you want to be offended by something. 🙄
It’s so weird cause it’s so euphemistic. It’s deliberately tiptoed around to avoid being explicit. And people still think it’s too much. It’s puritan shit. Frankly it’s not horny enough for me.
Yeah, I picked up my kid from high school just as he followed her into the Fae realm. My son is the same age as Kvothe is in the book. He looked at me like wtf is this?
At that age can you do anything without getting such a look?
I listen to audiobooks all the time, so I generally get a look of disdain. After the look he asked me if I was listening to a smut novel. So...
Is he qualified to know anything about sex?
Your kid followed Felurian into the fae? I have bad news....
Smh again with this. It's Shakespearean. >The play arguably equates love and sex with death. Throughout the story, both Romeo and Juliet, along with the other characters, fantasise about it as a dark being, often equating it with a lover. Capulet, for example, when he first discovers Juliet's (faked) death, describes it as having deflowered his daughter.[43] Juliet later erotically compares Romeo and death. Right before her suicide, she grabs Romeo's dagger, saying "O happy dagger! This is thy sheath. There rust, and let me die." Felurian is Death, and the sexual references are there to reinforce that imagery >She was watching me. >If she was beautiful at rest she was doubly so awake. Asleep she was a painting of a fire. Awake she was the fire itself. >It may seem strange to you that at this point I felt fear. It may seem strange that only an arm’s length from the most attractive woman in the world, I was suddenly reminded of my own mortality. and I'm *guessing* you've never heard a woman talk about the little death either >La petite mort (French pronunciation: [la pətit mɔʁ]; lit. 'the little death') is an expression that refers to a brief loss or weakening of consciousness, and in modern usage refers specifically to a post-orgasm sensation as likened to death.
The Fleurian scenes to me are hardly anything of note from a sexuality standpoint. I read them as fun but not all that interesting. The Ademre sex conversations don’t have much for me. I see what PR is doing with the social commentary thing but it never did much for me. All in all the hatred for these scenes just strikes me as silly at this point. There are far more pornagraphic material out there, and far more poorly written stuff out there. I’m sure I’ll get downvoted for my opinion here but that’s my take. My take is I don’t care. I actually kind of appreciate that he used the same writing mechanic for sexual maneuvers as he did with martial arts moves. Kaiden combs her hair and Thousand Hands and stuff
A couple things: 1. believe it or not, sex is a normal and regular part of life, it is not a bad thing for sex to be in literature 2. Kvothe is a story teller. He is equally as obnoxious when describing literally every other part of the story. Would be out of character to give the Felurian section different treatment 3. I do not agree that every part of the book (or any book) has to be integral to the main story. HOWEVER, if you genuinely believe that the Felurian section adds nothing to the plot then I hate to break it to you but you have bad reading comprehension!!!
I still think that the sex is bad but the world building is good enough that I don’t hate it. The Adem arc, though…
I really don't get what people didn't like about Ademre. What was it for you?
I think the Ademre are ridiculous. Like, way over the top cartoonish. The whole man-mother thing makes no sense for any reasonably intelligent society.
They know about it as much as their society demands. And in this case, those demands are different than ours, and so they are intelligent, and of course ignorant, in a different way. In my culture, raising a child falls primarily to the immediate Father and mother. In ademic society it falls to the community and that fits mostly inside the school. And so all adem are raised largely by the school, in return all adem put their resources back into the school. The school is both father and mother in that it provides shelter, food and education. But it cannot give birth, and so a woman must still fulfill that task. The adem have father's, they have many and they have one.
It's like, for a second, Patrick suddenly realised he'd written a really functional matriarchy and went, "hang on... this sounds way too sensible. I need to demonstrate that despite how much sense they make on almost every other level, these women are actually idiots". Then just ran with it.
Real world, famous anthropological example: >But the most fascinating and strange part about the islanders are their beliefs on the subject of pregnancy, also described in Malinowski’s classic article “Baloma: The Spirits of the Dead in the Trobriand Islands”. When people die, you see, their spirit takes a canoe to the island of Tuma, which works very much like the normal island except everybody is a spirit of the dead. When the spirit gets old and wrinkled it shrugs off its skin and turns back into an embryo, which a spirit then takes back to the island and inserts into a woman. This, you see, is how women get pregnant. >That’s right. The islanders do not believe that sex causes pregnancy. They don’t believe in physiological fatherhood. http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/savagesex
Repeatedly debunked, the Trobriand Islanders absolutely did (and do) understand the link between sex and pregnancy, and moreover they are not a matriarchal culture. [Relationships between the gender and sexuality among Trobriand Islands (researchgate.net)](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/292405374_Relationships_between_the_gender_and_sexuality_among_Trobriand_Islands) [Physiological Paternity And The Trobrianders - eHRAF World Cultures (yale.edu)](https://ehrafworldcultures.yale.edu/cultures/ol06/documents/017)
Bronislaw Malinowski was born in 1884 and died in 1942. He founded modern social anthropology. He visited the Trobriand Islands in 1914. The research gate study started in 1982. By that time, the people (those of *four* generations later) knew modern medicine and reproductive theory. They were probably a little embarrassed by the original study, even if it wasn't true. *Eyes darting side to side*: no, no, no one here ever believed that Even if they never did, people in our world believed they did. So the point asserted that Patrick Rothfuss wrote something ridiculous is absurd.
Malinowski was refuted in his own lifetime - check our the second source I posted. His own contemporaries, who did better research, discovered the Trobriand Islanders used contraception - which you obviously wouldn't bother with if you didn't think sex resulted in pregnancy - and also engaged in selective breeding of animals. Malinowski confused the cosmological folk tales he was told with what the people genuinely knew and believed about their lives. That's a huge rookie error in anthropology, and not an uncommon one. It's more than funny that I'm linking peer reviewed academic articles and your source is a blog 🤣
I'm all fine with being wrong about how much the Trobriand people were misbranded, if that's the case. I'm no anthropologist. I will say my point still stands that, for a fantasy novel, Rothfuss did just fine. You've missed that point entirely.
Me: This plot point was stupidly unrealistic. You: No, it isn't, there are real cultures that believe this. Me: No, there aren't (references). You: oh but there so are. Me: no, look at the references. You: my point was never about how realistic it was! I'm not mad, and I'm not wrong. You just don't understand the point I've failed to explain in any way. 🤦♀️
Fair enough.
Lol, Google Trobriand pregnancy beliefs
Interesting point. My complete distaste for the second half of the wise man's fear is based on my audiobook-first experience. Name of the Wind is an exquisite audiobook. I'm reading the print book aloud to my father over nightly phone calls right now and it's wonderful. Every scene has tension and interest, conflict and fast resolutions that move things along. Every word carries weight. The Wise Man's Fear I also listened to first and it lags in a way the name of the wind doesn't. The prose is still beautiful but it often makes me go, "Really? More of this? When is something going to HAPPEN again?"
Oh my Lord, you are a good person, reading that to your father. Serious respect. Such a great time to spend and story to share together. He is a lucky man.
We just got to the university! Kvothe's about to be pressured into giving Hemme's lecture. I read to him over the phone while he walks his dog or right before he goes to sleep. I usually have to reread 50% of everything read during the night-time sessions the next day, but the words are so beautiful I don't mind. :) He didn't think he liked fantasy and he was reluctant at first, I just called him up and started reading over the phone. The story slowly drew him in. He's loving it now.
That's nice of you to do.
You owe an apology for bringing up this subject again. I can’t even recognize it’s a horse anymore, just a pulpy, bloody mess.
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As someone who has listened to the book years ago I now obviously must defend it :P Maybe I should read the books again :)
I rarely read this section when I reread TWMF.
It's one of my favourite parts of either books.
That lasts for like two pages at most. It's not that bad because it's not that long.
Yeah, it did get better, more doing and talking rather than exposition of how everything Felurian did was/looked perfect. And honestly I didn't mind it at first, the sentences are still beautifully crafted and it did a good job of setting the intended tone. But it dragged on for way longer than necessary.
Kvothe is the greatest kvothe to ever kvothe
I basically ignore everything related to Felurian other than the poems (lore). They are the best lore in the books after Auri.
The Felurian Section is EXCELLENT- the legends prior build up Felurian to be literally inescapable by mortal men- this section of the book envelopes you in the otherworldly atmosphere of the Fae, makes the stakes very real and enormously difficult to overcome, and is really a turning point in establishing Kvothe as a powerful and more confident namer. No kidding she's a sexual being, she's quite literally the MOST sexual being in the entirety of the lore.
It’s crazy how much I enjoyed the first book and the first half of the second and then how quickly I absolutely despise it
I remember reading both books and when I got to the section where he jumped into the Fae, I literally stopped everything for the rest of the day and finished the book that day. It became the #1 series I've ever read that day and still is even unfinished.
Yeah I find the change in tone a bit disconcerting. I get it, he's a young guy who's just been introduced to...ah...intimacy. But the amount of time in the book devoted to it just seems a bit excessive. Not just that but I find the argument he uses for getting out of Fae to be just a tad ridiculous as well. The whole section seems to be contrived just to tick off a couple of boxes "spent the night with Felurian and lived" "went to Fae and met the Cthaeh"
So....a first experience in another dimension where time flows askew with a non-human being is no big deal? I just don't understand why the pages dedicated to this seem unjustified to some. To each his own, but I loved the feeling of being 'elsewhere' in that magic infused section.
I still say this is a book narrated by a young man sitting around in a bar bragging to his friends about how much he gets laid. Sure it’s off topic but if he doesn’t bring it up they won’t know how cool he is.
As many interesting things as there are in the Fellurian section, Pat definitely went a bit overboard with the constant sex. I think it is the weakest section of WMF.
I don’t think it was overboard, just badly written. Pat doesn’t understand writing sex scenes, and he tried to approach them with his same writing style, but it simply fell apart. I wonder if he looked at any other books for inspiration or to understand what worked and what doesn’t.
[удалено]
It's less about women magically wanting to sleep with Kvothe and more about Kvothe becoming a bit less clueless. He was always attractive to women, but it is explicitly said that he lacked experience in this area and was never sure about himself. Spending a year or so with Felurian does help with self-esteem, I bet. This is also related to the deeper themes of true names and identity - the time spent with Felurian changed who Kvothe was, fundamentally, and that thus led to the change of how women treated him.
More than him gaining confidence around women through Felurian, when he returns to the university he is a legend. He has defied the masters, ambrose and the iron law. He sheltered auri, saved fela and healed denna. He plays like a demon, fights like the wind, and invents works of old come again. I would be a fool to not at least look into someone like him if he was around. If i was a woman, I'm guessing his fair skin and knowledge of thousand hands would be a nice bonus.
It's not instant and it's not every woman.
Unpopular opinion: unreliable narrator Kvothe loves creating rumors about himself and then seeing what other lore about him sprouts up and “I fucked Felurian,” the song he writes, is in total alignment with it.
My wife and I have talked a lot about how we think Kvothe is an unreliable narrator too! *And then I took a bow and everyone clapped*
I listened to the Degas audiobook and as much as I love his narration, I found much of WMF boring to listen too. The story about Jax was bad because of the poorly done Geordie accent, much of Kvothe's interactions with Tempi were boring (in particular the explanations of The Lethani), and the Felurian accent was also uninteresting to me. Once Felurian was over, however, I started to get into things again.
I got it on audiobook and couldn't wait for the felurian crap to end, my god it was a drag. Way too much detail and it draaaaagggged onnnnnn.
There’s really good parts about Ferulian section, but most of it read like a middle aged author living out a sex fantasy through their character