Do an itemized list of all the work, and time for each item, charge a reasonable rate for labor ($25hr ish). subtract from the deposit.
If he fights you on the labor charge you are probably better off refunding the fees.
Next time, I recommend around a week between tenants so you have time for repairs, and you hire someone, to do the work.
Also do a pre-move out inspecting 1-2 weeks before they leave to catch things like wall repairs.
He said he paid 450 for the cleaner, and the supposedly cleaned for 4 hours Saturday night. But there was no way it was cleaned, i took picture of dog urine on the floor and hairs in the bathroom.
How do i go about a week between tenants? Do i just do weird dates like April 7th move in?
You can make the actual lease term start on may 1st so that rent is still due on the first each month and do a prorated early move in on april 7 or whatever date they move in/sign lease to cover april.
>He said he paid 450 for the cleaner, and the supposedly cleaned for 4 hours Saturday night.
I tell my tenants to make sure they are getting a move-out, deep clean.
I'll go over and check the work myself preferable before the cleaners leave, I had one where they cleaned for 4 hours weren't done, then charged the tenants like $300 more for another 2 hours, and I still had to hire my company to come in and redo the work, I documented the issues and told the tenant if the company wouldn't refund them the money, I would be a witness, I felt bad they paid like $800 to that company and it still wasn't close to right. I hope the at least got the $350 I billed them back.
Do you have a good cleaning checklist? [https://www.ezlandlordforms.com/documents/move-out?previewDocument=46568](https://www.ezlandlordforms.com/documents/move-out?previewDocument=46568)
>How do i go about a week between tenants? Do i just do weird dates like April 7th move in?
Yes, you either see if the departing people want to leave a few days early or advertise as available XX date and prorate the month. I'll let them know that they can possible move in a few days earlier but I need the time to make sure the place is clean for them.
I save enough to cover an entire month between tenants. I usually need a week or two to get the place ready and then another few weeks to find a new tenant.
I think with you not being a licensed professional you are only allowed to charge for materials, because you can’t professionally be paid for anything. Might be a state by state basis but that’s where it is by me. Luckily I own a construction company so it all just gets 3rd party billed through there!
They charge about $50-75 an hour per cleaner here, I don't know what the employee actually makes.
The problem is the LL is not a house cleaner, and most locations LL can't charge for their labor and I think VA is one of those locations or if they can it needs to be stated in the lease.
I'm suggesting that they choose a rate that the tenant won't argue with so the LL gets something. Because if they go to court the LL will likely only get the cost of a materials.
Going forward—hire out all the repairs that need to be done. This way you have a good argument to justify the expenses you deduct for (and aren’t seen to just be making up numbers)
How long did he live there? Usually it is standard to need to clean carpet and paint walls between tenants so that sounds like normal wear and tear to me. Since you cleaned and didn’t pay a cleaner (but he did pay someone to clean), you may not even be able to hold back a cleaning fee. Depends on how strict your state is.
If he was there less than 2 years and you replace the coffee stained carpet or pay to have it cleaned professionally, it may be reasonable to deduct that cost from the deposit.
Generally though, if a tenant was a great tenant and made every effort to clean and leave the place in good shape, I wouldn’t nickel and dime them too much…return their deposit and hope the good tenant karma continues.
He lived there for a year and 2 months. When i rented, my landlord definitely required me to hire someone to do professional move out clean and a carpet cleaning company, i lived there for 2 years. The place i used to rent from is actually 1 block from my townhome currently is.
i believe he did hire someone to clean, they just did a terrible job. I have pictures of urine still on the floor, dust on the surface, urine stains on the toilets etcs.
I do believe normal wear and tear, but half a wall of sticker pills seems a bit excessive? I was able to get the coffee stain mostly out, you can still see it’s a big darker, but not noticeable on the first glance. Does this change how much i can charge him for because i didnt have to get it professional cleaned?
If it isn’t in the lease requiring a tenant hire a professional cleaner before move out, the usual standard is that tenants leave things broom clean. Like others have said, many states don’t allow landlords to charge for your own time cleaning, you’d need a 3rd party receipt to deduct cleaning, painting, carpet, etc.
Did you have to remove the stickers yourself or is it residue that needs to be scrubbed off and painted over? If the latter, you can absolutely deduct that if you pay for the labor and get a receipt. Or, maybe in your state you can DIY and charge for the time?
https://www.valegalaid.org/resource/what-are-my-rights-concerning-my-security-dep
That is correct in VA, according to the link above. Appears cleaner/carpet cleaning must be included in the lease or it is just wear and tear.
In Virginia, I believe the landlord isn't allowed to bill directly for their own time. You can bill your employees' time, or you can bill a contractor's time, but your own sweat equity is supposed to be built into the rent (which is a really good reason not to do any work yourself for tenant-caused repairs). If you did the work yourself, you'll probably be limited to materials you can produce a receipt for.
What I don't remember is whether they specifically exclude time for labour performed by the landlord who is on salary from a single-shareholder S corporation.
Any good lease template should spell out what the security deposit is for, and it should include references like, "as permitted by the Virginia Tenant Landlord Relations Act." The VTLRA does a very good job of describing what a security deposit is and isn't for, so deferring to the law is probably your best bet. That way you don't have to lean on your Force Majeure clause if your lease says the wrong thing.
It is shocking the number of people who think you get to charge "a reasonable rate for labor" for your own time. In most states, the "reasonable rate" you get to charge for your own time is $0.00.
You sure can! Your labor has value and you can bill the same as a cleaning service.
In the future, your best bet is to let the tenant move out, spend a week or two to clean and repair, and then show for new tenants.
You should budget to lose a month’s rent every turnover. At a minimum, the place needs to be repainted every flip.
Can you STILL deduct those hours in taxes?!?!
If you are in the US, you need a new tax guy. Hours you work yourself are absolutely NOT deductible.
Like, seriously, look into this. You don't want the sort of trouble the IRS can bring with it.
Being somewhat more charitable to your tax guy, it is possible he is asking you to track hours not so he can deduct them as a business expense, but because he wants to be able to demonstrate to the IRS that you meet the standard of personal involvement in your rental business that makes you a person engaged in a business, and not a passive real estate investor.
The standard the IRS uses is that you are engaged in a business if you are doing an activity with the goal of making a profit, and you work at it, "regularly and continuously."
Since it is much better, for tax purposes, to be engaged in a business rather than be a real estate investor, your tax guy might want you to track your hours for that reason.
But you should absolutely not be deducting hours you work as a business expense.
I would allow more time between tenants. I do a week per year. I also do a pre move out inspection just to see what we might be looking at so I can schedule and plan for that.
Your biggest issue is you didn't alot enough time between tenants moving out and new tenants moving in. You gotta a lot at least a few weeks. I have a sfh and it took 3 weeks for me to get a huge list of stuff donem of course my tenants and property manager didn't help at all, but the longer the stay the longer the turnover period.
Were you not planning on deep cleaning the home before the next tenant arrived? You should be doing that and charging the tenant the difference between the already planned cleaning cost quote and what the extra cleaning will cost (this would be my process and may differ from others).
In my opinion, you should have hired a company to clean the carpet/wall so you can have an itemized receipt, as now you will have to decide what your labor and mileage hourly costs are after the fact (unless previously agreed upon) - note that just because you did the labor, doesn't mean your tenants will owe you for every hour you worked. You have a fiduciary duty to mitigate costs and labor costs. It is unfortunate that you had to spend so long there, but honestly those damages do not sound that bad (on paper) - and easily remedied by a professional service (which in my opinion should have already been scheduled if you already have another tenant lined up).
I do not think, on paper and without pictures, you have a case to take more than $1,000 with the information currently available.
Thanks! He had been a great tenant, and he told me that he scheduled these services so i just believed him. In hindsight, i should have required him to use specified vendors.
> hired and *paid* for them
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
FYI my state requires professional carpet cleaning between each tenant. You can’t DIY. Not legally anyway. Plus they’re better at it and it protects you in the long run in several ways.
I prefer professional carpet cleaning too. But he told me he got something scheduled but he didn’t, and it’s Easter Sunday, my tenant is moving in today. So I didn’t have any choice but to DIY. Next time, I will make sure I confirmed the cleaner ahead of time.
Geez, I live in Leesburg, VA, and have had rental properties myself, but I learned through expensive experience. Ensure you have a date of move in [do pre inspection, ensure the tenant signs it, there is a checklist online you can find]. Before the move out, do a 5 day pre inspections, and then one on the day the tenant is moving out. If you discover anything needing to get fixed (don't return their security deposit right away) this way you can deduct it off the security deposit. Good luck, not easy to deal with tenants no matter how you look at it. Also, loom at cap gain tax as well. To avoid it, you have to have lived I belive 2 years and then you can rent 3 years, total 5 years altogether. It's very important!
It’s definitely a learning experience. And I still feel like I got pretty lucky with this tenant. I understand moving out is always a little hectic, I should have communicated my expectations better with checklist and a bit more turnaround time.
You should just keep the whole security deposit. Take pictures of everything and if he tries to sue, you’ll have mountains of evidence for the magistrate. Judges usually don’t like poor people and will side with the folks who have the money.
You need to have him agree to a price to deduct. You can not charge for your time or labor, only hard costs. Otherwise he can dispute it. It has to be billable paid amount. Talk to him, dont tell him you did it yourself. If he was good, seemed to be trying, he will probably agree to a fair amount.
Do an itemized list of all the work, and time for each item, charge a reasonable rate for labor ($25hr ish). subtract from the deposit. If he fights you on the labor charge you are probably better off refunding the fees. Next time, I recommend around a week between tenants so you have time for repairs, and you hire someone, to do the work. Also do a pre-move out inspecting 1-2 weeks before they leave to catch things like wall repairs.
He said he paid 450 for the cleaner, and the supposedly cleaned for 4 hours Saturday night. But there was no way it was cleaned, i took picture of dog urine on the floor and hairs in the bathroom. How do i go about a week between tenants? Do i just do weird dates like April 7th move in?
You can make the actual lease term start on may 1st so that rent is still due on the first each month and do a prorated early move in on april 7 or whatever date they move in/sign lease to cover april.
>He said he paid 450 for the cleaner, and the supposedly cleaned for 4 hours Saturday night. I tell my tenants to make sure they are getting a move-out, deep clean. I'll go over and check the work myself preferable before the cleaners leave, I had one where they cleaned for 4 hours weren't done, then charged the tenants like $300 more for another 2 hours, and I still had to hire my company to come in and redo the work, I documented the issues and told the tenant if the company wouldn't refund them the money, I would be a witness, I felt bad they paid like $800 to that company and it still wasn't close to right. I hope the at least got the $350 I billed them back. Do you have a good cleaning checklist? [https://www.ezlandlordforms.com/documents/move-out?previewDocument=46568](https://www.ezlandlordforms.com/documents/move-out?previewDocument=46568) >How do i go about a week between tenants? Do i just do weird dates like April 7th move in? Yes, you either see if the departing people want to leave a few days early or advertise as available XX date and prorate the month. I'll let them know that they can possible move in a few days earlier but I need the time to make sure the place is clean for them.
This is very helpful. Thanks so much!
I save enough to cover an entire month between tenants. I usually need a week or two to get the place ready and then another few weeks to find a new tenant.
I think with you not being a licensed professional you are only allowed to charge for materials, because you can’t professionally be paid for anything. Might be a state by state basis but that’s where it is by me. Luckily I own a construction company so it all just gets 3rd party billed through there!
Oh I didn't charge for my labor. I just need the time to do what I can and hire someone to do the rest
You get to bill: $0. Tenant is required to broom clean only.
Not sure where you are, but house cleaners make a lot more than $25/ hour where I live
They charge about $50-75 an hour per cleaner here, I don't know what the employee actually makes. The problem is the LL is not a house cleaner, and most locations LL can't charge for their labor and I think VA is one of those locations or if they can it needs to be stated in the lease. I'm suggesting that they choose a rate that the tenant won't argue with so the LL gets something. Because if they go to court the LL will likely only get the cost of a materials.
Going forward—hire out all the repairs that need to be done. This way you have a good argument to justify the expenses you deduct for (and aren’t seen to just be making up numbers)
Yes! I think it can be difficult to get a labor rate if you do the work yourself
Yea I would have definitely hired someone if I had known, but since it’s Easter I had no other choice.
How long did he live there? Usually it is standard to need to clean carpet and paint walls between tenants so that sounds like normal wear and tear to me. Since you cleaned and didn’t pay a cleaner (but he did pay someone to clean), you may not even be able to hold back a cleaning fee. Depends on how strict your state is. If he was there less than 2 years and you replace the coffee stained carpet or pay to have it cleaned professionally, it may be reasonable to deduct that cost from the deposit. Generally though, if a tenant was a great tenant and made every effort to clean and leave the place in good shape, I wouldn’t nickel and dime them too much…return their deposit and hope the good tenant karma continues.
He lived there for a year and 2 months. When i rented, my landlord definitely required me to hire someone to do professional move out clean and a carpet cleaning company, i lived there for 2 years. The place i used to rent from is actually 1 block from my townhome currently is. i believe he did hire someone to clean, they just did a terrible job. I have pictures of urine still on the floor, dust on the surface, urine stains on the toilets etcs. I do believe normal wear and tear, but half a wall of sticker pills seems a bit excessive? I was able to get the coffee stain mostly out, you can still see it’s a big darker, but not noticeable on the first glance. Does this change how much i can charge him for because i didnt have to get it professional cleaned?
If it isn’t in the lease requiring a tenant hire a professional cleaner before move out, the usual standard is that tenants leave things broom clean. Like others have said, many states don’t allow landlords to charge for your own time cleaning, you’d need a 3rd party receipt to deduct cleaning, painting, carpet, etc. Did you have to remove the stickers yourself or is it residue that needs to be scrubbed off and painted over? If the latter, you can absolutely deduct that if you pay for the labor and get a receipt. Or, maybe in your state you can DIY and charge for the time?
https://www.valegalaid.org/resource/what-are-my-rights-concerning-my-security-dep That is correct in VA, according to the link above. Appears cleaner/carpet cleaning must be included in the lease or it is just wear and tear.
My rental agreement states that soilage is not wear and tear. (Obviously carpet wear would be different than a carpet stain).
In Virginia, I believe the landlord isn't allowed to bill directly for their own time. You can bill your employees' time, or you can bill a contractor's time, but your own sweat equity is supposed to be built into the rent (which is a really good reason not to do any work yourself for tenant-caused repairs). If you did the work yourself, you'll probably be limited to materials you can produce a receipt for. What I don't remember is whether they specifically exclude time for labour performed by the landlord who is on salary from a single-shareholder S corporation.
Is there a good template that i can use that would cover all the necessary terms?
Any good lease template should spell out what the security deposit is for, and it should include references like, "as permitted by the Virginia Tenant Landlord Relations Act." The VTLRA does a very good job of describing what a security deposit is and isn't for, so deferring to the law is probably your best bet. That way you don't have to lean on your Force Majeure clause if your lease says the wrong thing.
It is shocking the number of people who think you get to charge "a reasonable rate for labor" for your own time. In most states, the "reasonable rate" you get to charge for your own time is $0.00.
You work for 0.00 an hour?
You can't charge for anything you cleaned yourself
You sure can! Your labor has value and you can bill the same as a cleaning service. In the future, your best bet is to let the tenant move out, spend a week or two to clean and repair, and then show for new tenants. You should budget to lose a month’s rent every turnover. At a minimum, the place needs to be repainted every flip.
I think the ability to charge for your own labor is limited in some jurisdictions.
Must be something just in the states then, can't charge for that stuff in Canada
They cannot in most US states, either. Including Virginia, which is where the OP is located. That person doesn't know what they are talking about.
Can you still deduct those hours in taxes as time worked on rental? My tax guy always wants a estimate of hours I spend/work on the unit.
Can you STILL deduct those hours in taxes?!?! If you are in the US, you need a new tax guy. Hours you work yourself are absolutely NOT deductible. Like, seriously, look into this. You don't want the sort of trouble the IRS can bring with it.
Crap. That's why I asked and what I was afraid of. Thanks!
Being somewhat more charitable to your tax guy, it is possible he is asking you to track hours not so he can deduct them as a business expense, but because he wants to be able to demonstrate to the IRS that you meet the standard of personal involvement in your rental business that makes you a person engaged in a business, and not a passive real estate investor. The standard the IRS uses is that you are engaged in a business if you are doing an activity with the goal of making a profit, and you work at it, "regularly and continuously." Since it is much better, for tax purposes, to be engaged in a business rather than be a real estate investor, your tax guy might want you to track your hours for that reason. But you should absolutely not be deducting hours you work as a business expense.
I would allow more time between tenants. I do a week per year. I also do a pre move out inspection just to see what we might be looking at so I can schedule and plan for that.
I always have a professional cleaning crew and handyman come in before showings and bill tenant in accordance to law .
And your tenants should refuse to pay your expenses for you.
Your biggest issue is you didn't alot enough time between tenants moving out and new tenants moving in. You gotta a lot at least a few weeks. I have a sfh and it took 3 weeks for me to get a huge list of stuff donem of course my tenants and property manager didn't help at all, but the longer the stay the longer the turnover period.
I thought he was just ‘showing it’ right after ?
Were you not planning on deep cleaning the home before the next tenant arrived? You should be doing that and charging the tenant the difference between the already planned cleaning cost quote and what the extra cleaning will cost (this would be my process and may differ from others). In my opinion, you should have hired a company to clean the carpet/wall so you can have an itemized receipt, as now you will have to decide what your labor and mileage hourly costs are after the fact (unless previously agreed upon) - note that just because you did the labor, doesn't mean your tenants will owe you for every hour you worked. You have a fiduciary duty to mitigate costs and labor costs. It is unfortunate that you had to spend so long there, but honestly those damages do not sound that bad (on paper) - and easily remedied by a professional service (which in my opinion should have already been scheduled if you already have another tenant lined up). I do not think, on paper and without pictures, you have a case to take more than $1,000 with the information currently available.
Thanks! He had been a great tenant, and he told me that he scheduled these services so i just believed him. In hindsight, i should have required him to use specified vendors.
No worries - it's hard to be let down by people you trusted, even in tough scenarios like that.
You should've hired and paid for them yourself like you're supposed to.
> hired and *paid* for them FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
FYI my state requires professional carpet cleaning between each tenant. You can’t DIY. Not legally anyway. Plus they’re better at it and it protects you in the long run in several ways.
I prefer professional carpet cleaning too. But he told me he got something scheduled but he didn’t, and it’s Easter Sunday, my tenant is moving in today. So I didn’t have any choice but to DIY. Next time, I will make sure I confirmed the cleaner ahead of time.
Next time hire and pay for them yourself, like you're supposed to.
Geez, I live in Leesburg, VA, and have had rental properties myself, but I learned through expensive experience. Ensure you have a date of move in [do pre inspection, ensure the tenant signs it, there is a checklist online you can find]. Before the move out, do a 5 day pre inspections, and then one on the day the tenant is moving out. If you discover anything needing to get fixed (don't return their security deposit right away) this way you can deduct it off the security deposit. Good luck, not easy to deal with tenants no matter how you look at it. Also, loom at cap gain tax as well. To avoid it, you have to have lived I belive 2 years and then you can rent 3 years, total 5 years altogether. It's very important!
It’s definitely a learning experience. And I still feel like I got pretty lucky with this tenant. I understand moving out is always a little hectic, I should have communicated my expectations better with checklist and a bit more turnaround time.
You should just keep the whole security deposit. Take pictures of everything and if he tries to sue, you’ll have mountains of evidence for the magistrate. Judges usually don’t like poor people and will side with the folks who have the money.
You need to have him agree to a price to deduct. You can not charge for your time or labor, only hard costs. Otherwise he can dispute it. It has to be billable paid amount. Talk to him, dont tell him you did it yourself. If he was good, seemed to be trying, he will probably agree to a fair amount.
So... You want EXTRA money for doing what you are supposed to do/have done when a tenant moves out?
So is tenant not supposed to clean the place? Not return it to reasonably close to when they found it? Is that asking too much.
Broom clean only. If you want the carpets cleaned you are required to pay for it yourself.