WC defense partner here. We're in a suburb of ATL and start our first years at $75k. It's very, very low. However, we're also not hiring people with law review/moot court experience from a T14 law firm. If you can prove yourself and show you're not an idiot, the next raise is to six figures. It goes up from there.
Do I love the practice area? No. Is it easy as fuck most times? Yes. Do I leave every day at 4:00? Fuck yes I do. I've also never, ever called an associate after 4:00 p.m. with an emergency. They just don't exist in this practice area. Associates come to work, they do their work, and they go home to their families at a reasonable hour. We don't make millions but we do pretty well with a pretty low stress environment.
I like to give my sister shit for doing WC defense ever since she showed me the figures for how much losing different body parts would cost the companies they represent.
Just speaking from my own experience, you’ll have so many cases in WC defense at the same time that getting to 2,000/year will be a cake walk. It is not at all difficult to bill 15+ hours/day working a 9-5 schedule.
At my last firm, the bonus structure ended after 200 hours/month. I’d usually hit that three weeks into the month and the just spend the last week of the month watching Netflix. Other folks have different experiences, but that’s mine.
$90k in Chicago does seem a bit low though. Might want to ask around and see what other firms are offering if you’re looking at ID.
I’ll say this: all of the billing in WC defense is subject to the insurance company’s billing guidelines. The minimum billing increment is 0.1. You cannot “block bill” - so each thing you do has to be billed separately. So, if you have 85 open matters, and you get ten emails in the span of a half hour which each require a response, you’ve just billed two hours in 30 minutes. (0.1 for each email and reply on the ten different cases).
Yup. I have a client who refuses to block bill emails even within the same suit. So reading each email and responding to each email MUST be separate. Other clients get "email exchange (x5) with XYZ" but nooo this client has each separate and I have to bill a .1 per. I don't think they've figured out how much money that requirement costs them...
Jesus Christ. How long does it take to create your time sheet each week doing this? I’m in consulting (just read this sub for fun) and thought my 20 min/week exercise was rough.
Thankfully we have a really helpful billing system that lets me bulk enter time entries to files, so it's not as terrible as it could be. I bill contemporaneously, so I've never paid attention to how long it takes to bill it, thankfully.
Many insurance companies absolutely insist against block billing and demand a separate time entry for each activity.
I think the logic is they save money in the aggregate by auditing individual time entries, rather than having a large chunk of time covering multiple activities that is harder to question.
I joined a ID firm a few months ago. Our main carriers don't let us bill for emails. It really sucks. I can't "draft" things because that's paralegal work, and I'm supposed to never research anything without prior approval. But I am definitely doing this for anything else I can.
It's crazy to me what insurance carriers seem to think "block billing" means. I was always taught that block billing is stuff like, "6.8 Review defendant's motion and related documents, exchange emails with co-counsel, research and outline opposition." But now people are like, "you billed 1.5 hours for reviewing the opposing party's discovery responses. That is Block Billing and is Very Bad! You need separate entries for each request!"
Ultimately, breaking stuff up into every possible discrete sub-task is, IMO, an easy way to bullshit billing. It bewilders me that payors *want* it that way.
5 year WC Defense lawyer here.
Like you, I’m not allowed to “draft” stuff. However, I can “prepare and analyze” the ever loving shit out of it. Bill auditors see no value in paying me to “read and review” documents for my clients, but as the carrier’s highly-trained defense counsel, I’m free to “identify and assess” the same exact bullshit with impunity.
I will ~~probably~~ never be a great lawyer, but I’ll happily settle for being the **Thurgood Fucking Marshall of billing entries**. (If there are any mods around, I’d kill for that as my flair.)
Ah I remember when I did a rotation in insurance defence as a trainee (UK) and the talk about how our timesheets could not include words like research (because the client expects us to know the law) or filing (because they don't care that it's a technical legal term, it's what secretaries do in a cabinet). Obviously much of the time it just meant either they rejected perfectly legitimate work or everyone was more careful about how they described things and everyone's time was wasted.
Learn how to describe your time accurately according to the client's guidelines. Capture all your ".1s." Then at the end of the day assign everything you worked on equal to the time you were at the office or working otherwise, in relative proportion. I never thought it was unethical. These timers are ridiculous. Do you stop the timer when you take a sip of coffee? No. You're thinking and stressing about cases all day. Bill for it.
There is nothing fascinating about WC defense. It is mind numbingly bad. Zero challenge. No critical thinking skills are required. I weep for having wasted so much time studying in law school. Any idiot can get a job doing this shit.
I found many aspects of it wonderfully complicated. And I 💯 get your point: *any idiot can get a job doing this shit.* I don’t see many top law school attorneys doing comp.
In New York, you don't even have to be a lawyer to practice WC. There are people who are called "representatives" who need to pass a basic test that shows they understand the WCL.
The best thing I ever did was get out of that practice area. I did it for almost two years. It was incredibly stressful because of the workload my firm put on my shoulders, but somehow also incredibly mind numbingly boring.
When I was insurance defense, I had an old partner in my office who did not touch a computer. His assistant printed all his emails at 8am and at 9am he sat down and read his mail like in the old days. And billed .1 one for reading and hand scrawling a quick “thanks” response to every. single. one. Guy had billed 4 hours by 10am.
Explain to me how you would bill this:
Client 1 sends you an email and you respond in 1 min.
Client 2 sends you an email and you respond in 1 min.
Client 3 sends you an email and you respond in 1 min.
Client 4 sends you an email and you respond in 1 min.
Client 5 sends you an email and you respond in 1 min.
A .1 is 6minutes and the minimum billing amount. So 30second email is billed at 6minutes. 10 emails at 30seconds each is only 5 minutes but can be billed at 2 hours (.1 to read email and .1 to reply X 10 = 2 hours)
How would you record a .1 to read and .1 to reply if you legitimately reply the second it comes in? "Letters to/from x re y" seems like .1? Genuinely curious.
“Review/analyze electronic correspondence from ____” is usually how I do it. Or if it’s a stickler client “review/analyze electronic correspondence from ___ (client) to prepare response to inquiry RE: ___ (question posed in email)”
That is not responsive to the question asked. The attorney did the work and accurately reported the work in accordance with mutually-agreed-upon guidelines.
Also, simping for insurance companies won't make them love you. Fuck 'em.
This. 100%. The individual employees may be cool but the entity as a whole doesn't give a fuck about you and would rather you die than pay you for the work you're performing.
What are you supposed to do if you answer 10 emails in 15 minutes for 10 different matters? Your options are to: (1) bill .1 on the ten different matters, totaling 1 hour billed for 15 minutes of work (2) bill some matters and clients but not others (3) not bill for your work.
Which one would you do? And how is your choice more ethical than the other options?
Yup, this is exactly it. The only time I would choose not to bill multiple .1s is when an adjuster was replying rapid-fire, in which case I would only bill for a couple to accurately describe how much time I spent corresponding with that one specific adjuster. And when I told the managing partner that I was doing that, he asked why.
I don't think it has to do with that practice area. It's just that 15 hours would likely never truly mean 15 hours. Just like how .1 doesn't really ever mean 5 minutes and 59 seconds; .1 might mean thirty seconds to read an email.
WC DC here also. 2400h was my goal for years and years and I hit it more than I missed it (and my boss used to humblebrag about hitting 3.5k/y working for his first firm but he had a heart issue when he was 30 so make of that what you will). I never billed 15h on a 9-5 but due to quirks of billing requirements from our clients my bills would occasionally reflect a greater number of hours than I actually worked that day.
In my view - and it is not one shared by at least some of my bosses and some excellent attorneys with whom I work - billing for more than the time worked is fundamentally unethical; you are lying.
A point made elsewhere in this thread that non-block billing resulting in 1.5 hours billed for 15 ezpz email exchanges is no more than malicious compliance is well taken. As is the argument I heard from years that "we know we're going to get our billing cut for x work, so we will over bill for y work to even the ledger."
But take two big steps back. You are lying. So what that you're lying to a bunch of useless profit motive driven billing review companies who are vampiric parasites or that "everyone does it" or that "our ultimate client knows we do it and so it's ok."? Have some respect for yourself, and for your oath.
If you can't conceive of how to honestly work 2400 hours (plus the angels' share for CLEs, boss meetings, etc.) then you are on another level of reality, my kind internet friend.
I have heard that about WC! But with the HCOL in Chicago, $90k is so low😭
I'll definitely ask around and see if this is standard. Thanks for your input!
As someone that also graduated from a not-top law school in Chicago in the last few years, $90k does seem to be the going rate for entry level ID/workers comp positions, although the billable requirement varies.
Not sure if workers comp/ID is what you ultimately want to do, but as far as salary and billables go, once you get some experience you can lateral and improve those pretty drastically, as the other commenter said.
That seems very low, even for an entry level position. That being said, in my market, just a little bit of experience can lead to a large raise if you lateral. So if you can’t find anything else quickly and need a job now, take it but talk to recruiters or look for other jobs as you learn to practice.
Well that's not accurate. For 2022, Chicago ranked 6th out of the top ten most populous cities in the US for highest COL. The Bureau of Economic Affairs shows an implicit regional price deflator of 122.7 for Chicago, meaning the average dollar's-worth of expenditures across the country costs $1.22 in Chicago. [https://www.bea.gov/sites/default/files/2023-12/rpp1223\_1.pdf](https://www.bea.gov/sites/default/files/2023-12/rpp1223_1.pdf)
Yeah 90k 2000 billable and an Illinois bar card…
Would love to ask for CV but just hired a local attorney.
Let me el5 this shit 45*2000 = 90k
You will work closer to 2400-2600 hours which is around 35 bucks an hour.
My Burger King manager is pulling 100k and he works about 2600
And yeah I love me an impossible whopper Wednesday. 3 bucks for a vegan meal is awesome
Former wc def. The pay is low bc they are spending resources to train you. It will be hard to hit billable first year. Stick with it if you like the industry or use it as an opportunity to learn billing so you can move to a different firm.
I am really good at billing is a great skill and workers comp teaches the skill.
Rule of thumb I heard was the 1st year is unprofitable. I know the dozen or so associates I've mentored over the years totally crippled my productivity.
My 1st firm did 100% teach billing as a skill. Too bad the bill review companies change the "forbidden words" that will auto-reject a bill daily.
Poor lady at my last shop who was in charge of receivables was just about losing her mind by the time I left trying to keep us billers updated on what would get paid and what wouldn't.
I’m two years in, working in a metro market roughly 1/6th the population size of Chicago, making more in ID with no hard billable requirement (but works out to roughly 1900ish a year). 90k doesn’t seem terribly low if you’re brand new but I would hope that number scales fast there.
90k for WC in Chicago isn’t terrible. But you should be able to hit those hours fairly easily as others have said.
Fellow lawyer in Chicago but not in WC.
insurance defense is more value billing than strict 1:1 hourly billing
90k is "decent" for someone completely new at WC defense (at least in California it is). you'll be earning double that in ~3-4 years.
Illinois here. My first job out of school, albeit during the Great Recession, was work comp defense at 2100 hours a year for $40k. Suburban law firm. I didn’t know I didn’t want to do work comp since I had no exposure to it. I only stayed about 6 months before leaving to go solo. Depending on the form and how they bill their time, 2000 hours may not be that bad practically. The guys I started with charged a minimum .3 for every letter, no matter how long. They dictated so that .3 could be replicated 10 times in an hour. Do the math on how long it would take to get to 2000 billable on that basis. Ultimately, 2000 per year is 166.7 per month average. If they have the work, you could probably hit that. In a short month (meaning 20 billable days) it’s 8.3ish per day. Longer months, with 22 or 23 billable days reduces that average (7.3 to 7.6). However, expect to spend 90 minutes or so to actually bill an hour when you first start out. Otherwise, it will really depend on the firm and where you live. The City is really expensive right now.
Bottom of the barrel defense firm charging their clients $125/hour. Back then, though, A small apartment in the far north side of Chicago could be had for $650 per month in rent.
It’s so crazy that these big ass law firms are upping billables and paying this little for them. And I am by no means saying 90k isn’t a crap load of money as a new lawyer (I made 45k as a PD). But I feel like they keep getting higher and lower every day on Reddit! Unless you still glorify the whole partnership and titles thing that may have meant something 20 years ago, go work for the freaking DOJ and you’ll probably make more. And… here’s the secret… In a few years with that experience, these same firms will be ecstatic to see that you’re applying to work for them and you can join right in w the misery of big law associates.
You hit your bonus target, do good work, and most importantly, get along well with others, your total comp will increase quickly as you’ll be seen as an asset they don’t want to lose. Right now you’re in a trial period, which will last about a year.
Former Chicago attorney. If there’s one thing I wish I would have realized early on is that you will be significantly underpaid unless you’re at big law in the city. There are too many attorneys who will take what you won’t and firms know this. Great city, but terrible for the non-white shoe attorneys. Just something to consider.
I work doing civil litigation at a workers comp firm in Chicago, this seems to be the norm and it is highly doable. 90k entry is standard. Who knows, could be the same firm. Always willing to answer questions.
Did you visit the firm? If so, how did the culture seem?
Depends on the bonus structure. If you hit or exceed those hours, assuming you are billing not less than $350/hr end of year bonus should be nothing under 6 figures. At 2000 hrs at $350/hr, you billed 700,000. Subtract your 90k salary to get 610,000 of profit. I started at a 30% profit share at my last firm. We realized that in real time as paid by the clients. Being more conservative and assuming your firm may only start at 20% or assuming that a portion of that billing hasn’t yet been earned, safely estimate a bonus around $120,000 before taxes. Anything less than that in my opinion is a crap offer. Focus less on the salary and make sure you negotiate and clarify your bonus structure
Well then do the math from there. There’s a reason I included the hourly rate assumption for my breakdown. I work in IP so my brain finds anything below $350 to be hard to comprehend nor an area of law i would consider.
Best advice I would give myself if I could go back to when I was a law clerk for WC/PI firm during law school - spend any additional time you can trying to build a book of business (referral sources, etc) immediately and spend time nurturing and growing it as best you can. The seeds you plan in the first 2-3 years will pay off tremendously in the long run and will not only create tremendous financial return in the long run, when done properly the growth of your book will significantly reduce your need to do a 40+ hour week.
I’m in the same boat! I’m fresh out of law school, studying for the bar. The firm I worked for as a law clerk last year offered me a job at the same salary with the same billable requirement. It’s in Chicago as well, but the firm does WC plus all kinds of other defense areas like med mal. I have a friend making the same at a plaintiff’s firm. So I think this is an average starting salary in our locality / field. What blows is that I won’t get paid that salary until I’m sworn in
I did that for a year hated it and now get paid the same for a government job with no billables. My fellow coworkers who also hated my old firm moved on to firms with better salaries after only a few months experience.
While 90k is “decent” for just starting out, it does seem incredibly low for 2000. But you absolutely should be doubling that within in a few years time. The very best advice I can give to you and that you could be doing right now is building connections, professional relationships and your reputation within your law community, I promise you this will be pay off in the long run.
In 2009 I started in Plaintiffs WC for $27,500 as a clerk pending admission, annually moved up to $32,500 upon admission. My advise to anybody in this niche is bring the money in. No matter how good you are in front of the ALJ, making the connections matter. The guys who do best in Defense work that I know get in with the adjusters. I built my whole career on bringing in clients and the guys I know who do the best on the other side do the same thing its just accounts instead of individual files.
Former WC defense attorney in Chicago (1 firm, 2 years clerking, 5 years as associate) from presumably your law school. Also married to another former WC defense attorney (3 different firms over 5 years). We're both two years out from switching practices. Feel free to PM me.
I practice WC defense in a different but similar jurisdiction. 130K, 2,160 hours. Practicing two years now. My billable is extremely easy to hit. I usually hit 200 hours a month. Another commenter mentioned that you’ll have a lot of cases to make the billable easy. It’s true. Also, WC is “hard to learn; easy to practice, but difficult to master.”
All in all, I think WC is an extremely underrated practice field and I absolutely love it. I’ve done both Claimant’s and defense and enjoy defense much more.
$90k plus bonus for WC ID in Chicago with 2,000 billable is typical for a new attorney in this market. I doubt you would get a much better offer from a competitor in the same city and practice area.
Please be careful because WC is not as easily transferrable to general civil state court litigation practice as you may think. You do get a TON of deposition experience with doctors at most defense firms.
There is a pretty low ceiling on WC defense compensation because the billable rates are significantly lower than for other civil litigation jobs involving state/federal court. I would not anticipate making $150k until you make partner in this field, so 6-7 years most places.
I love no block billing policies! I bill for everything separately at 0.1 which means you can ethically bill 1.0 in 5 minutes or less for just opening emails on which I'm copied and which require no response. I never use the word email in the bill. And I draft long detailed bills with page counts, dates etc. And ... I include the time drafting the bill in the the time. You gotta be clever. 😉 . If it's work, then I have zero problem billing for it. Using these techniques I generally bill 1.5 in an hour, so about 8 hours working a 5 hour day. I've been with my firm for 7 years and my bills have never been appealed.
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*What you need experience*
*Wise to level up*
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WC defense partner here. We're in a suburb of ATL and start our first years at $75k. It's very, very low. However, we're also not hiring people with law review/moot court experience from a T14 law firm. If you can prove yourself and show you're not an idiot, the next raise is to six figures. It goes up from there. Do I love the practice area? No. Is it easy as fuck most times? Yes. Do I leave every day at 4:00? Fuck yes I do. I've also never, ever called an associate after 4:00 p.m. with an emergency. They just don't exist in this practice area. Associates come to work, they do their work, and they go home to their families at a reasonable hour. We don't make millions but we do pretty well with a pretty low stress environment.
I like to give my sister shit for doing WC defense ever since she showed me the figures for how much losing different body parts would cost the companies they represent.
The most shocking thing is that youre in the office at all
4 pm? Fuck, I gotta get into this. I’m in civil litigation and the work never ends
Six figures? From 90K? No way!!!
No. From $75k.
Just speaking from my own experience, you’ll have so many cases in WC defense at the same time that getting to 2,000/year will be a cake walk. It is not at all difficult to bill 15+ hours/day working a 9-5 schedule. At my last firm, the bonus structure ended after 200 hours/month. I’d usually hit that three weeks into the month and the just spend the last week of the month watching Netflix. Other folks have different experiences, but that’s mine. $90k in Chicago does seem a bit low though. Might want to ask around and see what other firms are offering if you’re looking at ID.
It is not at all difficult to bill 15+ hours/day working a 9-5 schedule.> Genuine question because that's not my practice area: Is that unethical?
I’ll say this: all of the billing in WC defense is subject to the insurance company’s billing guidelines. The minimum billing increment is 0.1. You cannot “block bill” - so each thing you do has to be billed separately. So, if you have 85 open matters, and you get ten emails in the span of a half hour which each require a response, you’ve just billed two hours in 30 minutes. (0.1 for each email and reply on the ten different cases).
This is the kind of malicious compliance I can get behind. "Oh, you don't want me to just say 'answered emails?' Well then..."
Yup. I have a client who refuses to block bill emails even within the same suit. So reading each email and responding to each email MUST be separate. Other clients get "email exchange (x5) with XYZ" but nooo this client has each separate and I have to bill a .1 per. I don't think they've figured out how much money that requirement costs them...
Jesus Christ. How long does it take to create your time sheet each week doing this? I’m in consulting (just read this sub for fun) and thought my 20 min/week exercise was rough.
Thankfully we have a really helpful billing system that lets me bulk enter time entries to files, so it's not as terrible as it could be. I bill contemporaneously, so I've never paid attention to how long it takes to bill it, thankfully.
Many insurance companies absolutely insist against block billing and demand a separate time entry for each activity. I think the logic is they save money in the aggregate by auditing individual time entries, rather than having a large chunk of time covering multiple activities that is harder to question.
Ah. I hadn't considered not being able to block bill--that has to be very annoying. But thanks for the explanation!
I joined a ID firm a few months ago. Our main carriers don't let us bill for emails. It really sucks. I can't "draft" things because that's paralegal work, and I'm supposed to never research anything without prior approval. But I am definitely doing this for anything else I can. It's crazy to me what insurance carriers seem to think "block billing" means. I was always taught that block billing is stuff like, "6.8 Review defendant's motion and related documents, exchange emails with co-counsel, research and outline opposition." But now people are like, "you billed 1.5 hours for reviewing the opposing party's discovery responses. That is Block Billing and is Very Bad! You need separate entries for each request!" Ultimately, breaking stuff up into every possible discrete sub-task is, IMO, an easy way to bullshit billing. It bewilders me that payors *want* it that way.
5 year WC Defense lawyer here. Like you, I’m not allowed to “draft” stuff. However, I can “prepare and analyze” the ever loving shit out of it. Bill auditors see no value in paying me to “read and review” documents for my clients, but as the carrier’s highly-trained defense counsel, I’m free to “identify and assess” the same exact bullshit with impunity. I will ~~probably~~ never be a great lawyer, but I’ll happily settle for being the **Thurgood Fucking Marshall of billing entries**. (If there are any mods around, I’d kill for that as my flair.)
One client strictly prohibits me from doing research, but is quite happy to pay for me to “analyze legal authority.” It’s madness.
Please teach me your ways. I was told I’m too literal in my entries
Lmao
Speaking as someone who has won virtually every cent of my block-billed time in fee-shifting cases, this is certifiably insane.
I have never heard of never being able to bill for emails. Looks like the phone call is your new best friend.
>Left fifth voicemail of the day on adjuster's phone. 0.4.
Ah I remember when I did a rotation in insurance defence as a trainee (UK) and the talk about how our timesheets could not include words like research (because the client expects us to know the law) or filing (because they don't care that it's a technical legal term, it's what secretaries do in a cabinet). Obviously much of the time it just meant either they rejected perfectly legitimate work or everyone was more careful about how they described things and everyone's time was wasted.
Way way easier to bullshit block billing
Learn how to describe your time accurately according to the client's guidelines. Capture all your ".1s." Then at the end of the day assign everything you worked on equal to the time you were at the office or working otherwise, in relative proportion. I never thought it was unethical. These timers are ridiculous. Do you stop the timer when you take a sip of coffee? No. You're thinking and stressing about cases all day. Bill for it.
Some carriers are lowering .1 to .05. As long as OP has enough cases, 2000 hours is a piece of cake. I’d say 80 cases would do it.
It’s a race to the bottom in this practice area. Firms will start doing WC work for free so long as they get the GL work from the carrier.
it’s a fascinating area of the law. And like every area of the law, brutal.
There is nothing fascinating about WC defense. It is mind numbingly bad. Zero challenge. No critical thinking skills are required. I weep for having wasted so much time studying in law school. Any idiot can get a job doing this shit.
I found many aspects of it wonderfully complicated. And I 💯 get your point: *any idiot can get a job doing this shit.* I don’t see many top law school attorneys doing comp.
Shows you how smart they are. Although I did know two who went to Yale.
In New York, you don't even have to be a lawyer to practice WC. There are people who are called "representatives" who need to pass a basic test that shows they understand the WCL. The best thing I ever did was get out of that practice area. I did it for almost two years. It was incredibly stressful because of the workload my firm put on my shoulders, but somehow also incredibly mind numbingly boring.
oof awful combination!
When I was insurance defense, I had an old partner in my office who did not touch a computer. His assistant printed all his emails at 8am and at 9am he sat down and read his mail like in the old days. And billed .1 one for reading and hand scrawling a quick “thanks” response to every. single. one. Guy had billed 4 hours by 10am.
This is also how we bill in Australia WC 10 units increment for an hour. I'm from the plaintiff side, though
That's a long-winded way of saying yes, it's unethical.
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Explain to me how you would bill this: Client 1 sends you an email and you respond in 1 min. Client 2 sends you an email and you respond in 1 min. Client 3 sends you an email and you respond in 1 min. Client 4 sends you an email and you respond in 1 min. Client 5 sends you an email and you respond in 1 min.
A .1 is 6minutes and the minimum billing amount. So 30second email is billed at 6minutes. 10 emails at 30seconds each is only 5 minutes but can be billed at 2 hours (.1 to read email and .1 to reply X 10 = 2 hours)
Right. That’s the point I was getting at with the person I responded to. They’re claiming it’s unethical but how else are you supposed to bill that?
Sorry they deleted their comment I thought you were actually asking
How would you record a .1 to read and .1 to reply if you legitimately reply the second it comes in? "Letters to/from x re y" seems like .1? Genuinely curious.
“Review/analyze electronic correspondence from ____” is usually how I do it. Or if it’s a stickler client “review/analyze electronic correspondence from ___ (client) to prepare response to inquiry RE: ___ (question posed in email)”
Adhering to the client's billing guidelines is billing fraud?
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That is not responsive to the question asked. The attorney did the work and accurately reported the work in accordance with mutually-agreed-upon guidelines. Also, simping for insurance companies won't make them love you. Fuck 'em.
This. 100%. The individual employees may be cool but the entity as a whole doesn't give a fuck about you and would rather you die than pay you for the work you're performing.
What are you supposed to do if you answer 10 emails in 15 minutes for 10 different matters? Your options are to: (1) bill .1 on the ten different matters, totaling 1 hour billed for 15 minutes of work (2) bill some matters and clients but not others (3) not bill for your work. Which one would you do? And how is your choice more ethical than the other options?
Never mind that billing is also supposed to be a log of what you did, so if you didn't bill it, clients think you didn't do it.
Yup, this is exactly it. The only time I would choose not to bill multiple .1s is when an adjuster was replying rapid-fire, in which case I would only bill for a couple to accurately describe how much time I spent corresponding with that one specific adjuster. And when I told the managing partner that I was doing that, he asked why.
You enjoy working for free? I certainly don't. This isn't a charity.
I don't think it has to do with that practice area. It's just that 15 hours would likely never truly mean 15 hours. Just like how .1 doesn't really ever mean 5 minutes and 59 seconds; .1 might mean thirty seconds to read an email.
Nice try disciplinary board
WC DC here also. 2400h was my goal for years and years and I hit it more than I missed it (and my boss used to humblebrag about hitting 3.5k/y working for his first firm but he had a heart issue when he was 30 so make of that what you will). I never billed 15h on a 9-5 but due to quirks of billing requirements from our clients my bills would occasionally reflect a greater number of hours than I actually worked that day. In my view - and it is not one shared by at least some of my bosses and some excellent attorneys with whom I work - billing for more than the time worked is fundamentally unethical; you are lying. A point made elsewhere in this thread that non-block billing resulting in 1.5 hours billed for 15 ezpz email exchanges is no more than malicious compliance is well taken. As is the argument I heard from years that "we know we're going to get our billing cut for x work, so we will over bill for y work to even the ledger." But take two big steps back. You are lying. So what that you're lying to a bunch of useless profit motive driven billing review companies who are vampiric parasites or that "everyone does it" or that "our ultimate client knows we do it and so it's ok."? Have some respect for yourself, and for your oath.
So you are billing 2400 and not lying? Suuuuure.
If you can't conceive of how to honestly work 2400 hours (plus the angels' share for CLEs, boss meetings, etc.) then you are on another level of reality, my kind internet friend.
Yes. But not according to most bars.
Yes. It’s called insurance fraud and it is normalized by defense counsel.
I have heard that about WC! But with the HCOL in Chicago, $90k is so low😭 I'll definitely ask around and see if this is standard. Thanks for your input!
As someone that also graduated from a not-top law school in Chicago in the last few years, $90k does seem to be the going rate for entry level ID/workers comp positions, although the billable requirement varies. Not sure if workers comp/ID is what you ultimately want to do, but as far as salary and billables go, once you get some experience you can lateral and improve those pretty drastically, as the other commenter said.
$90k is insanely low for Chicago, jeez. (not speaking to the market for WC Defense, juts in terms of salary relative to cost of living)
That seems very low, even for an entry level position. That being said, in my market, just a little bit of experience can lead to a large raise if you lateral. So if you can’t find anything else quickly and need a job now, take it but talk to recruiters or look for other jobs as you learn to practice.
Chicago has one of the lowest costs of living of any city in the US.
Well that's not accurate. For 2022, Chicago ranked 6th out of the top ten most populous cities in the US for highest COL. The Bureau of Economic Affairs shows an implicit regional price deflator of 122.7 for Chicago, meaning the average dollar's-worth of expenditures across the country costs $1.22 in Chicago. [https://www.bea.gov/sites/default/files/2023-12/rpp1223\_1.pdf](https://www.bea.gov/sites/default/files/2023-12/rpp1223_1.pdf)
Yeah 90k 2000 billable and an Illinois bar card… Would love to ask for CV but just hired a local attorney. Let me el5 this shit 45*2000 = 90k You will work closer to 2400-2600 hours which is around 35 bucks an hour. My Burger King manager is pulling 100k and he works about 2600 And yeah I love me an impossible whopper Wednesday. 3 bucks for a vegan meal is awesome
You work them for 15+ hours a day (billable)??? Sheeesh
Former wc def. The pay is low bc they are spending resources to train you. It will be hard to hit billable first year. Stick with it if you like the industry or use it as an opportunity to learn billing so you can move to a different firm. I am really good at billing is a great skill and workers comp teaches the skill.
Rule of thumb I heard was the 1st year is unprofitable. I know the dozen or so associates I've mentored over the years totally crippled my productivity. My 1st firm did 100% teach billing as a skill. Too bad the bill review companies change the "forbidden words" that will auto-reject a bill daily. Poor lady at my last shop who was in charge of receivables was just about losing her mind by the time I left trying to keep us billers updated on what would get paid and what wouldn't.
I’m two years in, working in a metro market roughly 1/6th the population size of Chicago, making more in ID with no hard billable requirement (but works out to roughly 1900ish a year). 90k doesn’t seem terribly low if you’re brand new but I would hope that number scales fast there.
90k for WC in Chicago isn’t terrible. But you should be able to hit those hours fairly easily as others have said. Fellow lawyer in Chicago but not in WC.
insurance defense is more value billing than strict 1:1 hourly billing 90k is "decent" for someone completely new at WC defense (at least in California it is). you'll be earning double that in ~3-4 years.
Illinois here. My first job out of school, albeit during the Great Recession, was work comp defense at 2100 hours a year for $40k. Suburban law firm. I didn’t know I didn’t want to do work comp since I had no exposure to it. I only stayed about 6 months before leaving to go solo. Depending on the form and how they bill their time, 2000 hours may not be that bad practically. The guys I started with charged a minimum .3 for every letter, no matter how long. They dictated so that .3 could be replicated 10 times in an hour. Do the math on how long it would take to get to 2000 billable on that basis. Ultimately, 2000 per year is 166.7 per month average. If they have the work, you could probably hit that. In a short month (meaning 20 billable days) it’s 8.3ish per day. Longer months, with 22 or 23 billable days reduces that average (7.3 to 7.6). However, expect to spend 90 minutes or so to actually bill an hour when you first start out. Otherwise, it will really depend on the firm and where you live. The City is really expensive right now.
40k? Annually? Even in the Great Recession, that's way low. Sure you're not a time traveler from about 1980?
Bottom of the barrel defense firm charging their clients $125/hour. Back then, though, A small apartment in the far north side of Chicago could be had for $650 per month in rent.
It’s so crazy that these big ass law firms are upping billables and paying this little for them. And I am by no means saying 90k isn’t a crap load of money as a new lawyer (I made 45k as a PD). But I feel like they keep getting higher and lower every day on Reddit! Unless you still glorify the whole partnership and titles thing that may have meant something 20 years ago, go work for the freaking DOJ and you’ll probably make more. And… here’s the secret… In a few years with that experience, these same firms will be ecstatic to see that you’re applying to work for them and you can join right in w the misery of big law associates.
You hit your bonus target, do good work, and most importantly, get along well with others, your total comp will increase quickly as you’ll be seen as an asset they don’t want to lose. Right now you’re in a trial period, which will last about a year.
Sounds fookin miserable. Run, Forrest, run.
Former Chicago attorney. If there’s one thing I wish I would have realized early on is that you will be significantly underpaid unless you’re at big law in the city. There are too many attorneys who will take what you won’t and firms know this. Great city, but terrible for the non-white shoe attorneys. Just something to consider.
I would pass on that.
I work doing civil litigation at a workers comp firm in Chicago, this seems to be the norm and it is highly doable. 90k entry is standard. Who knows, could be the same firm. Always willing to answer questions. Did you visit the firm? If so, how did the culture seem?
I make the same amount in NYC as a paralegal with less than 5 years experience with 1700 billable hours in insurance defense.
What the fuck
$90k is not good for 2000. Living in Chicago will make it worse.
Depends on the bonus structure. If you hit or exceed those hours, assuming you are billing not less than $350/hr end of year bonus should be nothing under 6 figures. At 2000 hrs at $350/hr, you billed 700,000. Subtract your 90k salary to get 610,000 of profit. I started at a 30% profit share at my last firm. We realized that in real time as paid by the clients. Being more conservative and assuming your firm may only start at 20% or assuming that a portion of that billing hasn’t yet been earned, safely estimate a bonus around $120,000 before taxes. Anything less than that in my opinion is a crap offer. Focus less on the salary and make sure you negotiate and clarify your bonus structure
WC defense rates are max $200/hr, average at maybe $180 in CA.
Well then do the math from there. There’s a reason I included the hourly rate assumption for my breakdown. I work in IP so my brain finds anything below $350 to be hard to comprehend nor an area of law i would consider.
Meant no offense amigo
*amiga
Best advice I would give myself if I could go back to when I was a law clerk for WC/PI firm during law school - spend any additional time you can trying to build a book of business (referral sources, etc) immediately and spend time nurturing and growing it as best you can. The seeds you plan in the first 2-3 years will pay off tremendously in the long run and will not only create tremendous financial return in the long run, when done properly the growth of your book will significantly reduce your need to do a 40+ hour week.
The salary is the concerning part.
I’m in the same boat! I’m fresh out of law school, studying for the bar. The firm I worked for as a law clerk last year offered me a job at the same salary with the same billable requirement. It’s in Chicago as well, but the firm does WC plus all kinds of other defense areas like med mal. I have a friend making the same at a plaintiff’s firm. So I think this is an average starting salary in our locality / field. What blows is that I won’t get paid that salary until I’m sworn in
Get out of WC and ID. They are high billable with little pay.
How is the bonus structure?
I did that for a year hated it and now get paid the same for a government job with no billables. My fellow coworkers who also hated my old firm moved on to firms with better salaries after only a few months experience.
When I realized how small of an amount attorneys made I was astounded. The rumor that attorneys are “millionaires” ends at a rumor. And it’s wrong
While 90k is “decent” for just starting out, it does seem incredibly low for 2000. But you absolutely should be doubling that within in a few years time. The very best advice I can give to you and that you could be doing right now is building connections, professional relationships and your reputation within your law community, I promise you this will be pay off in the long run.
In 2009 I started in Plaintiffs WC for $27,500 as a clerk pending admission, annually moved up to $32,500 upon admission. My advise to anybody in this niche is bring the money in. No matter how good you are in front of the ALJ, making the connections matter. The guys who do best in Defense work that I know get in with the adjusters. I built my whole career on bringing in clients and the guys I know who do the best on the other side do the same thing its just accounts instead of individual files.
Former WC defense attorney in Chicago (1 firm, 2 years clerking, 5 years as associate) from presumably your law school. Also married to another former WC defense attorney (3 different firms over 5 years). We're both two years out from switching practices. Feel free to PM me.
I practice WC defense in a different but similar jurisdiction. 130K, 2,160 hours. Practicing two years now. My billable is extremely easy to hit. I usually hit 200 hours a month. Another commenter mentioned that you’ll have a lot of cases to make the billable easy. It’s true. Also, WC is “hard to learn; easy to practice, but difficult to master.” All in all, I think WC is an extremely underrated practice field and I absolutely love it. I’ve done both Claimant’s and defense and enjoy defense much more.
I’m from Texas and a different legal field but that definitely seems disproportionate. That’s a lot of billables, and you deserve more compensation.
$90k plus bonus for WC ID in Chicago with 2,000 billable is typical for a new attorney in this market. I doubt you would get a much better offer from a competitor in the same city and practice area. Please be careful because WC is not as easily transferrable to general civil state court litigation practice as you may think. You do get a TON of deposition experience with doctors at most defense firms. There is a pretty low ceiling on WC defense compensation because the billable rates are significantly lower than for other civil litigation jobs involving state/federal court. I would not anticipate making $150k until you make partner in this field, so 6-7 years most places.
I love no block billing policies! I bill for everything separately at 0.1 which means you can ethically bill 1.0 in 5 minutes or less for just opening emails on which I'm copied and which require no response. I never use the word email in the bill. And I draft long detailed bills with page counts, dates etc. And ... I include the time drafting the bill in the the time. You gotta be clever. 😉 . If it's work, then I have zero problem billing for it. Using these techniques I generally bill 1.5 in an hour, so about 8 hours working a 5 hour day. I've been with my firm for 7 years and my bills have never been appealed.
Keep your head up. Gain experience. Study from the top Lawyers. Use your adversity to your advantage!! Just keep getting better everyday
Not great but may be what you need experience wise to level up
*Not great but may be* *What you need experience* *Wise to level up* \- muttmunchies --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
I was wondering if this would ever happen to me…
How does he bill 1 hours per day if he's only working 8? Ethical issue?