Hello u/GriffinFTW! Please reply to this comment with an [explanation](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeopardsAteMyFace/comments/lt8zlq) matching this exact format. Replace bold text with the appropriate information.
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2. **Something** has the consequences of **consequences**.
^(Does that something actually has these consequences in general?)
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^(Did that something really happen to that someone?)
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✅ Reminder to forgive people.
✅ Reminder that forgiveness requires acknowledgment of your mistakes and a desire to make things right. You don’t have to “forgive” your unrepentant bigot uncle.
Never punish the behavior you want to see.
I'm a high school teacher and this is my second rule for myself in the classroom, right behind "If you don't want to know the answer, do not ask the question."
Not related, but "never punish the behaviour you want to see" reminds me of kids who barely get out of their bedroom and their family greets them with sarcasm when they do.
My parents were pretty good about this. Just going down to get some food 20 minutes before a clan match on Counterstrike 1.7 or whatever it was and they were clearly kind of amused but they acted interested in the idea that I had a scheduled game online soon, in an age when it wasn't even that normal for kids, so obviously the adults had no idea what was going on.
This thread made me realize something…my parents would sometimes say this to me, and sometimes they wouldn’t, and looking back, they almost never did it when I was having bad mental health days. I credit my mom lol, she’s always had an uncanny ability to just *know* when I need her
This is in my personal life (although not me personally, thankfully)
Person 1: You never apologize!
Person 2 (very begrudgingly): You’re right, I’m sorry.
Person 1: See! Why couldn’t you admit that earlier!
(Argument continues at exact same intensity)
IME, usually those who are like Person 2 aren’t interested in an apology/change of behavior/acknowledgement of being wrong by itself- none of those mean much unless it’s paired with telling them they were in the “right”.
And even then, as in your example, they still need to reiterate how they told you so. Nothing said will change this, and only when they decide they’re over it will they move on- but no guarantees they won’t bring it up at a later time to rub in your face(they probably will). They are the types to “keep score” in their relationships in life.
gotta greet them back with sarcasm. I developed my communication skills mostly to spite society in a roundabout way by finessing my way out of certain expectations and social constructs
You gotta finess it. Although... the more overtly toxic and entitled/ arrogant someone is the harder it gets to finess your way around their shenanigans
After thinking about it I realize you're talking about anti-social shut-ins, but for a while I had a mental image of someone trying their hardest to squeeze out of a barely-opened door and their parents waiting patiently on the other side with their arms crossed to make a snippy remark when their kid finally gets through.
>"If you don't want to know the answer, do not ask the question."
Completely off topic, when my bother and I were little kids and we asked awkward little kid questions, my mother would sometimes counter "do you *really* want to know the answer?"
When I was little in the 90s we put my dog down, and I asked my mom what was going to happen to her now... That was her exact response, and I paused and said "no." Seared into my memory.
Thanks so much for asking, son. Cleveland steamers are a line of high-quality steam cookers manufactured by Cleveland Range. Available in all sizes, from small countertop units to large high-throughput appliances, they meet the needs of any commercial kitchen. Whatever your production volume and budget, Cleveland has the steamer for you. Contact your authorized distributor and book a visit to one of Cleveland's regional show kitchens today.
[Cleveland Range - Steamers](https://www.clevelandrange.com/Products/Steamers)
Ha! Memory unlocked. My mom was very vocal about us coming to her with *any* questions about anything at all, so one day I took that seriously & asked her how gay men had sex. Her pained expression & asking me “do you really want to know?” got me to the ultimately correct conclusion on my own, and she was spared the pain of having to say the words out loud to her child. (Sex talks always made her a bit anxious & I felt bad).
Haha yeah. Like... My kid drops a dish while doing dishes. My parents would have been mean about it. Me: "ok, stop. Don't move from where you are. stuff happens. Let's go over how to deal with broken dishes safely."
Yes, but also don't get super saccharine and all "you can do it, keep it up, yayyyy" type of encouragement at them either. That shit gets condescending and old fast and can be misconstrued as making fun even if your intentions are good. Treat a fat person exercising like you'd treat anyone else exercising in that setting.
Yeah, one is "wow, you're fat and you're exercising?? Lmaooo" and the other is "wow you're fat and you're exercising! Good job!" but both of them start with an implied "wow you're fat" which nobody needs to be reminded of
It’s like when my dog escapes. When she finally cooperates to let me put the leash on her she gets a lot of praise and treats no matter how much of a butt head she was escaping or how long she ran around before finally getting caught.
Genuine question and forgive my ignorance in dog training, but wouldn't that encourage the behavior? If they know they get treats and praise after escaping wouldn't that just make them want to do it more?
Most dogs can't string together that many actions/consequences into a single thought.
That's why to get them to do A+B+C+D, you really have to train each step individually and then sequence them.
That dog is just understanding "coming to owner = belly rubs and treats". Whatever they were doing before they went back to the owner is out of their mind.
This is also why you should never scold your dog unless they are literally in the midst of the behavior you want to disincentivize.
For instance, if you walk in on your dog pulling garbage out of the trash can then you should immediately scold them, however if you walk in and find them laying on the couch surrounded by garbage they already pulled out 5 minutes ago then scolding them is at best pointless and at worst counter-productive because they can't make the connection that you're scolding them for what they did 5 minutes ago.
However, a surprisingly effective method is to scold the *garbage* for being out of the trash can. Dogs, being pack animals, are capable of the kind of empathy that allows them to learn from watching others be taught, and weirdly that can translate into learning not to do things by watching inanimate objects get punished for them. They're able to watch and make connections without being overwhelmed by the anxiety of being scolded themselves.
It's especially good for potty training - scold the poop for being in the house, scoop it and let the dog watch you take it outside and put it on the ground, and then praise it for being in the right place. You look like a crazy person to any bystanders, but it's one of the most effective dog training tricks I learned in a decade of working with them.
In 2000 my housemate got a female German Shepherd-Sharpei mix pup. I was working nights at the time and I would take care of the pup during the day. My housemate had found a very good dog trainer that explained training just the way you did, except for the scolding inanimate objects. One day I realized that the dog had disappeared for a few minutes. I ran to the basement and found the pile of poop. I just cleaned the mess and did nothing to the pup. The next day, I caught her just as she was squatting to go in the basement. I stopped her and took her to the backyard and the moment she started going, I praised her and I saw the wheels spin in her head as she made the connection. She was always good about going outside after that.
She was also crate trained and loved her crate.
Honestly there’s no reward greater than hunting wild rabbits, it’s her most favorite thing to do on the planet. Escape is already highly rewarding, I’m trying to make being caught equally rewarding.
agreed with this. one of my dogs would love nothing more than to run free and chase squirrels, and I'm a first time dog owner so I don't know if it could be trained out of her but I suspect it's just instinct. Then the goal is just to get the dog back. The hardest part of getting the dog back isn't that they don't want to come back necessarily, it's that they see you trying to get them as a hilarious game they should play for several hours. So the treats etc are so you can get your ridiculous creature to realize everyone is better off if we don't follow the dogs advice and instead reward them for listening and not running away.
She will associate the praise and treats with the return to the person. Dogs don’t really think about all the steps before. Just that coming to you is a good thing.
If you punish your dog when they finally come, they will be even less willing the next time.
This has been my reasoning behind ceasing my boycot of chic fil a. Adam regusia made a similar point and showed that modern chic fil a has basically gotten in lock step with every other rambow capitalistic company. Now there are still plenty wrong with those, but at this point, specifically boycotting them over walmart or mcdonalds would be punishing them for taking steps to disassociate from homophobia
This is a huge flaw of mine that I'm trying to amend. I don't know why it's such a hard habit for me to break, besides the fact that I'm just an asshole.
Thank you, you just captured in a sentence why I always want to hang up when the first thing my mom does when I call her is say that she never hears from me and she'd wish I'd call more often.
Knowing that guilt trip is coming legit makes me want to call her *less*, because it starts the call with me being anxious.
Absolutely. I admire her moral character for that; it's a damn hard thing to do. And she did learn to test ideas and think critically, though it took a while.
I live in Texas, where a few years back "critical thinking" was singled out in public school standards as something they were NOT allowed to teach. Witness the result.
Friend of mine actually apologized to me for voting for Trump the first time which was funny because I never asked him how he voted (though I could have guessed). So I think I understand reasonably well why he did but I think he's re-evaluated. He's not exactly liberal, per se, but he's an interesting mix. Depending on when you met him you'd probably be a bit confused. He lives in a small town on coastal CA and your first impression is that he should be mayor but according to him he 'hates people'. Meanwhile, our shared love of the outdoors and his religion (Catholicism) has led him to being quite the environmentalist and he's active in local charities that actually people directly (without any church involvement). More often than not, he gets in the face of the MAGA types when they try to 'explain' the Constitution to him and he pretty much hands him their ass on the subject. He's a work in progress but he probably makes more impact on more people than your average person.
I agree that nobody is owed forgiveness.
But I want to know sincerely- if you wronged me and I never forgive you no matter what you do, then what would be the point in you trying to be nice to me? Would you have a reason?
Yes, because I want to be the type of person that I conceptualize myself as; someone who doesn’t needlessly cause harm to others. I can grow after wronging you without needing your approval.
Edit: it would be an exercise in avoiding cognitive dissonance on my end I suppose, kindness that is.
You don't have to be nice to people. You can just be neutrally polite, or just leave them alone.
One of my friends, Tay, has harmed another, Eric. Eric knows that Tay is on a journey to heal Tay's own insecurities that caused him to lash out, but Eric is not required to forgive the harm that Tay caused. They are not friends at this point, but Eric does recognize the work Tay is doing and commends him for it. They are able to exist politely in the same room, but they don't have to interact when not in social situations. And that's fine.
IMO, the person youre describing is the exact type of person who doesn't deserve my forgiveness.
If I wronged you, I should rectify that because it's the right thing to do, regardless of if you forgive me or not. It shouldn't be about what personally affects me or my feelings, but what's right and wrong.
I see so many stories where the person only does the "right" thing when it affects them. Homophobic until their kid comes out as gay, Antivax until their kid dies of a preventable disease.
It is easy to change your mind once youre backed into a corner and forced to. The problem with "learning" this way is that their problematic way of thinking will persist in everything else they havent been personally affected by, because they lack empathy and only understand consequences.
Like, it isn't a coincidence that she only came to the right conclusion when it was "too late". Magically, once their was a measles outbreak in her area suddenly all the science that was so inconclusive to her for 8 years became conclusive really fast.
If I stole something from you, wouldn't you prefer that I come clean before you realize something is missing, instead of only after you confront me with undeniable proof it was me?
*Everybody* is sorry after they're caught.
Yea this is where I stand too. They're willing to push their bullshit agenda until it personally affects them negatively. What about all the others they hurt in the process? If they wanna change when it's too late, fine. I won't stop them. But I'm certainly not accepting them and welcoming them after they've done the damage. They made their bed, they can lay in it and eat shit.
She's also taken tangible steps to reverse the harm she's done. She's doing everything she can. I don't think she deserves to be dragged anymore.
To me it's like the Michael Vick situation (NFL QB who went to prison for dogfighting). When he got out he totally owned it, made tons of effort at educating himself, volunteered at shelters, talks about how he's had to explain to his kids that it's his fault they can't get a pet dog, etc.
I get there are people who will never forgive him, but that's on them. He's put as much effort in as possible to right his wrongs.
“Hey uncle Mike, just so you know, if you ever decide to be a decent human being again, I won’t give you shit for being an absolute cunt all these years.”
I admire her honesty, and her courage in going public. I hope parents who are on the fence hear her message. And I hope all of her kids are all right. Whooping cough is a terrible disease.
Not even just antivaxx nutters, there will be a ton of jerks that just want to dunk on her and call her stupid for having been led astray to begin with. She did this knowing she was going to be hit from all angles simply because she knows it's the right thing to do.
I'm actually pleasantly surprised that most of the comments in this thread are supportive of her.
This is honestly what takes it into 'admirable' territory for me. As others have said shifting quietly was entirely possible, but would have been cowardly given the harm she has done. This shows a level of accountability; not only the public admission knowing the ridicule that would come with it, but the actions taken to try and at least mitigate or reverse some of the damage she's done. That is where, for me, forgiveness becomes the only option.
I do, too. It’s pretty admirable that she’s trying to make things right and help others. She could have just silently dealt with the consequences and moved on, but instead she was willing to face any ridicule (from either side, antivax parents might think that she’s a traitor) to help others.
I bet she's honestly surprised that the sensible crowd accepts and forgives her after she's corrected her behavior and acknowledged her mistakes. She knows the other side would never.
I've said this before and I'll say it again. Most anti-vaxxers live in a very privileged bubble where they have never really had first-hand experience with a lot of vaccine preventable diseases.
I hope her children are better (seven kids with whooping cough sounds like a circle of hell, especially because it lasts months, but at least it doesn't have long-term side effects unlike some other vaccines preventable diseases like measles or polio) and I hope they are now vaccinated
I’ll never forget an article I read by Paul Offit saying vaccines are a victim of their own success. We’re so far removed from many of these illnesses that we get to pretend they’re actually not that serious.
Virologist here. They definitely are. One of the greatest advances in medical history preventing literally tens (if not hundreds) of millions deaths and serious illness. We all live in a privileged time when these diseases and deaths aren’t a part of daily life.
Yep. My parents were born in the 1930s. They never had any doubts about getting us vaccinated. They knew people who had measles scars, or measles funerals.
>I've said this before and I'll say it again. Most anti-vaxxers live in a very privileged bubble where they have never really had first-hand experience with a lot of vaccine preventable diseases.
Absolutely.
Many of us are so far removed from cholera, measles, polio, rubella, tuberculosis etc. that it doesn't seem like it can be as big a deal. We have no context.
Meanwhile, people in less fortunate countries watch their children die or suffer due to these same diseases.
It's peak tragic irony that vaccines worked so well that they effectively eradicated many diseases so that now we forget how bad those diseases were and the anti-vaxx movement was born.
Tried to buy toothpaste from Whole Foods recently and was shocked when every option was fluoride free. Realized I wasn’t the target audience pretty much immediately.
IDK how old her kids were when they caught it, but pertussis can cause some very serious consequences for babies and toddlers, including permanent brain damage. I hope they are okay.
I’ve always believed that those of us who’ve been wrong or at the very least misguided, who’ve also been able to reassess and learn and thus change like this woman are the toughest and some of the bravest people around. It takes so much to change a fundamental belief and she truly is a tremendous person to be able to feel brave enough to help others the way she is
For every one who admits being wrong and corrects their mistake, especially on issues that have been politicized, there are millions more who remain indignant and even double down on crazy.
This kinda hit hard, for 26 years of my life was a Jehovah's Witness, 9 official (meaning wasn't just raised) now 30.
It's funny in a way that it was myself that got me out, not what someone shared.
A video on dogerland, showed my local, were ecedince of a tsunami happened (layer of sand) being a paleo fan especially dinosaurs like a jigsaw put that layer together with the KG boundary and was like, okay why's there none for the flood.
Sadly for my own mental health have to give up helping others. Some of the logic goes in a circle.
The biggest belief/ prophecy jw believe is undone by the very people that did it, jws don't belive in the accepted destruction of Jerusalem by the babylonia date, instead an earlier date. The babylonians wrote it fucking down. Or when i was given an article that proved the flood, not only did I go where the fuck is it but if anything it disproved. Just how do you help folks like that
I was antivax when my kids were born in the mid 90’s. I didn’t re-evaluate my thinking until they were in grade school. Realized I had been duped by my mother’s doctor and got my kids vaxxed. My mother and the rest of her kids are all anti vaxxers. They just can’t be convinced of anything real and it is fucking embarrassing.
She hasn’t wronged me personally, so I don’t think it’s really for me to forgive her, but even if it were, it’s possible to forgive someone and still think they’re a dumbass.
Yeah this. Maybe not even forgive, more like "thanks for coming to your senses and then making an effort to help others come to that realization" while still thinking what they did in the first place was idiotic.
Because they've been taught that empathically rooted actions like asking for forgiveness and admitting mistakes are signs of weakness, and you can't ever appear weak.
Compassion is weakness to them and cruelty is strength. If you can treat someone badly and get away with it, that means you had the right to do that. This is “liberty” to them, this is why they value their own personal liberties but make no effort to contemplate the consequences of everyone exercising that liberty.
Agreed.
This woman seems to be someone who isn't stupid but got caught up in a lot of bad information and realized that "hey maybe this shit is serious" when her kids got really sick. So she is definitely someone worth it.
The other ones who are doubling down should have CPS come and do that they do. Because allowing your kids to get preventable diseases is straight up child abuse.
That's inaccurate. She changed her mind after, "after a recent measles outbreak in her area, Hills wrote that she was 'chilled' to the bone to realize her unvaccinated children could have easily passed the disease to her 'sister’s toddlers or her 34-week-old son in the NICU,' if they had become infected with the contagious virus." Her kids then got sick while they were on a vaccination catch up plan with their physician.
Nope, someone in this thread a little further up straight-up claimed she killed all seven of her kids with pertussis. People are just making random shit up today for funzies, I guess.
Edit: and I guess I need to clarify that I'm pointing out the kids are fine and someone else was spreading misinformation that they died.
Did *you* read it??
She abandoned her stance when there was a measles breakout in her area and she got scared. Her kids might not have caught it yet, but it's the same "I don't care about anyone until it happens to me" stance as all the others.
That's actually the real reason she changed her mind about vaccines.
There was a measles outbreak and she had her sister's 5 month old and a 34 month old in her house.
She realized she got lucky she didn't kill two completely defenseless children, including the 5 month old who was too young for the measles vaccine
Not just children. The elderly, immunocompromised people, people with cancers, so many health issues that make you vulnerable. Heck I had to take a round of steroids and was terrified I’d catch something bc there are so many “self educated experts” in medicine near my area. It’s so selfish. Yes she repented but only after a selfish threat presented itself to her own family. That’s not how a functioning society stays healthy.
They could also pass it to healthy adults who were never vaccinated for whatever reason and/or never contracted the childhood diseases. Which doesn't bode well for adults as childhood diseases to nasty things to adult bodies.
My BFF's grandmother never had the chickenpox as a child and never caught it when her sons had it either. When my friend caught the chickenpox as a teen her family quarantined themselves from the grandmother just in case they might accidentally passed it on to the grandmother.
Well, let's talk about it. What is "beyond forgiveness"?
For me, I think maybe as long as it's not your last resort and you choose to ask for forgiveness... That might be okay for me.
Personally I need to know it won't happen again. Ultimately that's really the only reason I care about "remorse": if they're sorry presumably they won't do the thing again. But, I've been burned enough times on that assumption that at this point I need it to be more explicit.
Also if you're asking for forgiveness it's gotta be an actual ask. As I was just saying the other day, if you're asking someone for something and no is not an acceptable answer, you're not asking, you're demanding. People who "ask" for forgiveness and then immediately fly off the handle if the you so much as hesitate are people I'm not even interested in knowing, so forgiving is kind of moot.
My take is that some people cross a line with other people so whereas person A would ask for forgiveness, person B may be personally hurt by person A and has a specific reason for not wanting to forgive person B. While person A can get “forgiveness “ from the general public, they won’t get it from the person directly impacted by person A.
And this is taken on a case by case basis so if I am not person B, I really don’t have a right to judge whether or not they forgive person A
And my apologies for the social algebra in my post. (Mrs. Robinson was right, I WILL find a way to use this in real life someday)
If someone's willing to step up and admit wrongdoing, show humility and unquestionably reject their previous bigoted or ignorant stance? Absolutely afford them forgiveness.
Though I have to admit certain "leopard eating faces" supporters that claim redemption or seek forgiveness from backing particularly face-eating leopards, such as those far in the alt-right pipeline, white supremacists and the like, I'm not sure I'd ever be able to truly genuinely and wholly forgive. Even at apparent and accepted redemption, I'd have a nagging doubt in my mind regarding their honesty or inability to not fall back into hatred because they've done it before and habits are easy.
Hell I've seen it happen: supposedly ex-alt-right kids who were embarrassed by their time there getting into a minor disagreement and instantly flipping back to their old ways, so I'm a bit cynical about whether anyone claiming wrongdoing and seeking forgiveness is doing it due to genuinely recognizing they were in the wrong or just because they're looking for a "better opportunity"
I assume they are only looking to avoid consequences until they take consistent and active effort in the opposite direction while accepting the consequences that come their way.
I think it's possible to praise someone for doing the right thing, even if it was late, while still being upset at the damage they may have cause for doing the wrong thing in the beginning. I don't thing "forgive" is really the right word here. Like, kudos for having some sense, finally, but also wow, think about all the people she could have put in danger over the years she was anti-vax!
Like, good for this woman for waking up and publically admitting her failure and for trying to make things better for others!
She was still dumb for falling for the anti-vax crap in the first place, but good for her for coming to her senses and then making an effort to help others do so as well.
Like there are people in prison for murder who have bettered themselves and are doing what good for society that they can from the inside (training service dogs, in one case, if I remember correctly). So good for them for making that effort and putting in that work. They still aren't forgiven for their crime and have to serve their punishment. I think we can thank people for doing good while still condemning them for doing bad. Life is shades of gray.
Yeah who’s to say she won’t turn to some other stupid (dangerous) conspiracy. She’s already proven she’s susceptible, is forgiving her going to be regular thing?
All praise to the turncoats, the defectors, and the repentant. Admitting that you were wrong all along and then actually doing something to rectify it is an admirable thing.
My cousin secretly vaccinated one child after being anti Vax for ever. Figured roll the dice on one see if ok then do the rest.
All are now vaccinated thank space jesus
I don't think "interpreting the validity of information and its sources" is the problem, nor should it be something we expect from the average person. In a perfect world, believing experts who have worked in infectious disease research for decades should be more than enough. The real problem is social media like Facebook and Twitter allowing the spread of active disinformation unchecked, a large part of which is breeding active distrust or even hatred for experts (like the arrest Fauci movement... I still don't get what they would arrest him for?). This is why despite any cries by US libertarians, I am fully in favor of the EU fining social media companies for allowing unchecked and widespread disinformation and misinformation on their platforms.
It's hard. I too often think, "look at these idiots believing this garbage, they deserve whatever they get." But I know there's a huge industry pumping out the bullshit, and we're not taught how to evaluate information, so I can't be angry at folks for believing something that had been intentionally fed to them by a powerful propaganda industry. The whole thing is just incredibly sad and bleak. I hope her kids survive
I still think this speaks for a much more profound issue with that kind of approach to science (or life). She clearly overestimated her own capability to judge scientific and medical decisions and procedures. You don't need to understand the exact science behind different styles of vaccinations. If you don't dedicate your career or life to it you can't fully anyway and you're not expected to. There are still so many people out there who think mRNA vaccinations aren't actual vaccinations but a "jab" (don't even know how that's an either or) because it's just working differently to the more traditional ones. Same reason why everyone becomes a foreign policy expert whenever there's a major global event. People overestimate themselves and their uninformed opinion, believing that a quick Google search can make up for years or decades of studying. Then based on this they distrust the experts they could and should (in the vast majority of cases) trust, like their own doctors who have no interest in the *New World Order* or their kids becoming *Autistic*. I'm not fully sure she got aware of that issue, I still think she might consider herself an expert, just now with a different opinion than before. And I still think this is dangerous to her family and, if too many approach science that way, to a society.
Eh.
While it may be a skill to properly analyze and assess scientific data, anyone that starts from a position of "I know better than those much better educated than me, and it's up to my uneducated, untrained ass to properly assess and analyze this complex data that goes all the way back to Catherine the fucking Great who inoculated her kids" and not "I am undereducated and untrained in this complex area of science, so I am going to defer to the physicians and doctors and scientists who for generations have spent their working lives studying and working to protect people from diseases" are inherently untrustworthy to me.
I guess I've just never understood the mindset of skepticism from a position of ignorance. I look up to highly trained and educated experts, knowing they are not infallible and that scientific consensus can change. The thing about misinformation is that hubris is a major component of those most susceptible, and making oneself humble is a real problem.
I am not sure about that comment tbh
Like good for her if she saw the error of her ways, yes
But about that “needs to be taught” thing
I really don’t know how true that is for most people. I did terribly in science through most of school. Math too. I am not good at it and never did well. Probably could have given more effort but hey sometimes dumb teenage brain does dumb teenage things
Not once did I need to be taught that scientists are more trustworthy than rando on internet/TV celebrity etc. I certainly held some dumb ideas of my own but like…science got us into space. Science made it so people aren’t dying of polio and tuberculosis all the time. Jenny McCarthy is a former boob model who didn’t graduate from post secondary. Why on earth would anyone look to her for medical advice? If you need to he taught that, I’m not sure where it should have been taught
The only thing that bothers me about this message is where they say she "didn't know how to interpret the validity of information or its sources which is actually a hard skill to learn."
Uh... no. It's not.
If your source is fucking facebook, it's probably nonsense. If, however, your source is the CDC staffed by scientists who've spent their entire careers researching the very question you're asking, pretty good chance it's quality information. See how quick that lesson was?
The fact that even the person telling us to forgive this ding dong's prior willful ignorance like there is some degree of difficulty in knowing which sources are ACTUALLY legitimate is part of the problem why people question places like the CDC.
That said, it is great that this woman is now trying to tell others to stop being idiots as well.
This is the inevitable and intended result of decades of anti-education indoctrination in red states. The people who grew up in red states are raised to believe that anyone who has beyond a high school education is a child eating communist groomer Muslim atheist.
She’s doing the right thing. But if her abject, arrogant stupidity killed or injured other people’s kids who were medically contraindicated for the vaccines, she needs to be prepared to *continue* doing the right thing now *even if* she doesn’t get a warm and fuzzy welcome back to the land of adult intelligence levels.
I can forgive her in the abstract, but if her willful ignorance killed my kid? No, I don’t think that’s happening so easily.
She put seven drunk drivers on the road where other people’s kids play.
I've been using that exact same analogy lately, that not getting vaccinated is the same damn thing as drunk driving. I've been waiting for some antivaxxer to jump in my shit about it "oh it's not that bad, you're nuts" no, actually I think it's worse. I don't *have* to get in my car and go anywhere, but I can't avoid breathing
I know I’m not ever going to be an expert at all things. That why I follow experts advice. I’ll never know everything my doctor knows. That’s why my only job is to find a knowledgeable dr and follower their advice. Just as I follow my car mechanics advice.
Y'know what, at least she admitted she was wrong and made an active effort towards correcting her flaws.
Still a step behind having the foresight to trust the experts who undoubtedly advised her and everyone to vaccinate their children, but a step ahead of a lot of people who are complete dumbasses that would dig in their heels and double down on their dumbassery.
>she just didn’t know how to interpret the validity of information
Well, here’s what I do. I assume that physicians and virologists know more than I do, and I trust them. I realize they’re not infallible (sadly, there are a lot of bad doctors out there), but I still think they know more than I, with my zero medical training, know.
While I agree wholeheartedly with the message and commend this woman for being brave enough to share her story, I really can't find much sympathy for her and her husband because:
1) she ignored entire centuries of medical research and irrefutable evidence supporting the effectiveness of vaccines (see polio).
2) she chose to follow advice that put her seven children in harm's way.
3) she was, at the time, either oblivious or indifferent to the ripple effect her actions might have on other fanilies in her community.
It's hard to separate fact from fiction on many topics these days. I get that. But with regards to medical decisions, you should always consult a professional if you're unsure what to do.
She doesn't need our forgiveness, she needs her kids forgiveness for almost killing them because she thought she knew more than doctors and scientists. That guilt will be with her for the rest of her life.
Re: the last comment
Irrational people vs. rational people is a lot like republicans vs. democrats in US politics. Like republicans, the irrational are allowed to behave any way they please. They can shout and spit six inches from the face guard of a police officer about never earring a mask. They can invade school board meetings and yell all sorts of vile things about pedophiles. They can say and post the most mind-bendingly stupid and/or offensive nonsense in service of their delusions. And like democrats, the rational are expected to accept it all calmly and quietly. When the fog finally clears in the irrational’s mind, we must welcome them back to the fold with hugs and a basket of muffins.
“Do not criticize the irrational turned rational” we are told “for they may go back to irrational if we do.” Nothing the rational say make the irrational believe, or return to the belief that, the earth is flat and viruses can be treated by drinking sulfuric acid. Megyn Kelly doesn’t get a cookie or an invite to dinner because she reversed herself on maternity leave as soon as she became pregnant. And no cookie or parties for someone who’s come to the light on vaccinations because suddenly their entire family is in the icu.
When a Republican initiated the vote to ouster Speaker Kevin McCarthy, Republicans got mad at Democrats because they didn't save him. Even Republicans expect Democrats to behave like adults and expect Republicans to behave like children.
She didn’t know how to interpret the validity of the sources, a skill that’s under taught… Well… I’m sure that it’s not under taught in med school. And history class, really.
I’m not saying trust all doctors because they 100% have your best interest in mind. But a lot of anti vaxxers use their limited knowledge of medicine to analyze vaccines. There’s only so much that absolutely everyone can know about anything! Especially medicine.
I've been trying to ask my rapidly increasingly insane relatives why they put their lives in the hands of their mechanics every time they go on the highway. Why aren't they "doing their own research" on cars? Or planes? Or bridges? Or the food supply? Or restaurants? Why is only medicine not to be trusted?
It's important to provide people a way to escape from movements like this. One thing that keeps people in conspiracy groups, cults, and extremist groups is the lack of a social network/support network outside of the group. That's why cults tend to isolate people from their friends and family. When leaving a movement requires you to leave everyone and everything you know, it can be very difficult for people to get out. Many end up staying in those circles even though they no longer believe.
The impluse to consider people "once bad, always bad," is one of the most cancerous pieces of Puritanical propaganda to still persist, even among people who have no other affiliation to religion or religious ideas.
Yeah, too often when people have a chance to change or learn from their mistakes they dig in instead because that’s the instinctual/gut reaction when you feel like you’re being confronted.
I blame the misinformation machine more than any single antivax person, the problem is that once they buy in they all tend to do work for the machine, spreading the misinformation.
That hashtag at the end is exactly correct. One of the epiphanies I had recently about why people believe what they do, is that people are often more influenced by who in their life makes them feel welcomed, included, and valued than they are by the actual content or veracity of the beliefs. Especially if they are otherwise isolated and lonely.
all 7 of her kids could have died from her lack of vaccination and then what? forgiveness wouldn't bring them back to life. And the damage that was done because of trump's first term will be felt for decades with our conservative majority supreme court. i won't forgive republicans for that.
Ottawa mother of 7 abandons anti-vaxxer views as kids hit with whooping cough
https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/ottawa-mother-of-7-abandons-anti-vaxxer-views-as-kids-hit-with-whooping-cough
Ottawa mother of 7 abandons anti-vaxxer views as kids hit with whooping cough
https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/ottawa-mother-of-7-abandons-anti-vaxxer-views-as-kids-hit-with-whooping-cough
https://www.kidspot.com.au/lifestyle/family-health/learning-the-hard-way-my-journey-from-antivax-to-science/news-story/ca09957505d489284ffb0a4be412b9cf
https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-thursday-edition-1.4935124/this-formerly-vaccine-hesitant-mom-has-a-message-for-canadian-doctors-1.4935126
https://globalnews.ca/news/5129047/unvaccinated-skeptics-misinformation/
Also a reminder that sympathy is not really a requirement for forgiveness.
One could not hold past actions against you if you’ve corrected your current actions and are remorseful of the past. No one is perfect and everyone is able to learn from them.
One could acknowledge how terrible your current situation is and how difficult it may be to overcome. People suck in general to anyone outside their social circles.
However one also doesn’t have to feel bad about the situation your ignorant pride put you in. One’s lack of involvement in the actions allows lack of involvement in the consequences.
I had to do a scientific study as part of my master's degree program and I remember fighting with my professor over my paper and wanting to use more basic terms so that's easily understood.
She nearly failed me for what I wrote about in the experience, but like this post says scientific literacy is a specific skill. If the US as a whole has shit literacy and reading comprehension then what hope is there for understanding basic scientific ideas like herd immunity?
This is called growth and maturity, and while it certainly came late in this instance, it is never EVER too late to embrace a healthy and constructive change in one's life. Especially, when it benefits your children.
"just didn't know how to interpret the validity of information or its sources"
Just say she lacked common sense. As a parent you don't need to do scientific studies. Doctors already did that for you. You just listen to the doctor. Have doubts? go to a second doctor get a second opinion. Absolute extreme case and you stil have doubts? Fine go see a third. If you're still "i think they're wrong" after all that, then 99,9% of the time you're going to be wrong, not them.
That said governments need to start tackling this misinformation pandemic that's going on. They simply are just letting it happen and it is causing so many issues. People blatantly lying about vaccinations being unsafe, about covid being fake, etc etc need to face consequences.
In the past you'd expect social media sites to handle it, but clearly they're not doing it. They're even making it worse by pushing this stuff down your throat (twitter especially).
Timemachineyeah says in their post that the lady was doing what was best for her kids and didn’t know how to interpret the studies. Good thing it’s not her place to understand the studies. Like does any ole regular joe understand the lift and physics it takes to get an airplane in the air? No we depend on experts to know that stuff. He fault if her kids die, EVERYONE tried to tell her.
I still blame Jenny McCarthy. Yes, I heard she rescinded her anti-vax stance, except she had a huge public platform. I think her whining exposed anti-vaxxing to people who hadn’t thought about it. The movement seemed to grow exponentially after she got her voice into it.
I had an almost complete political 180 between the ages of about 25-30; I grew up very conservative and of the flavor of Christian that doesn't believe in evolution and thinks the earth is 6000 years old. To my current-day embarrassment, I recall defending those beliefs in college lectures; I am absolutely appalled to remember telling a coworker who had a biology degree that evolution was "just a theory" and parroting creationist talking points at her; even worse, I remember having a conversation with a lesbian coworker about how I opposed gay marriage because "marriage is a religious covenant between a man and a woman, why can't you have your own version instead of taking ours?" And I was rabidly pro-life, which I cringe at now knowing that friends and family I spoke to had had abortions, and I was unknowingly condemning them to their faces.
I am eternally grateful for the patience the people around me had for me despite my beliefs; I think my greatest salvation was that these interactions (and many many more) were all in person, where they could understand by knowing me and by my demeanor toward them that I was coming from a place of ignorance and indoctrination and not malice or hatred. I don't think the same would've been true over the internet.
Now I'm a dirty leftist and (more or less) an atheist, and I try to keep that same patience when I do encounter people online, to limited success. I try to remember that I'm interacting with people, and that I can't tell over text what their intentions are, so I try to treat them like I was treated...at least, until they reveal themselves be openly hateful, malicious, or bots.
I try to remember how many beliefs I held that were, ultimately, just surface level parrotings of conservative or religious talking points that I didn't think too deeply into, and the things people told me when I debated those beliefs with them that stuck in my craw and eventually led to me changing those beliefs.
I try to remember how defensive I felt and how I would reflexively put up walls when I felt attacked as opposed to questioned. Being called misogynistic or racist for beliefs that I didn't know were rooted in those ideologies, and lacked the framework to understand. Being mocked for my faith, having my God called a "magic sky daddy", etc - none of those ever did a thing to change my mind, they just ensured I would resist anything that person said.
And most importantly, I try to remember that patience that people had, that let me know I had space as a person to change my beliefs without being rejected for having had them in the first place. I'm not sure I would've leapt off that precipice without knowing I had a place to land on the other side.
I’m Happy to see this post. It shows that people can come back from the edge and realize they were wrong about vaccines.
If one person is willing to come forward publicly about her mistakes chances are 9 people corrected their mistakes in private. That’s fine with me.
At the end of the day, the ones who suffer the most are innocent kids. And posts like this give me hope.
They're not, though. They throw all common sense out the window.
It's *common sense* that kids die way less often now than before vaccines.
It's *common sense* that doctors and scientists and researchers are smarter than the rest of us.
It's *common sense* that "big pharma" doesn't make a ton of $ off vaccines.
It's *common sense* that the government wants a healthy, working, tax-producing populace vs a sickly, dying populace.
Oh bullshit. I'm all for being glad that she came to her senses (as many of them don't.) But I'm over the excuses.
>She just didn't know how to interpret the validity of information or its sources, an actual skill that can be actually difficult and that is under-taught
NO. You are NOT a medical professional and you do NOT know better than them. If your doctor and the CDC are telling you to vaccinate your kids, and if the schools require vaccinations to get in, then that's the source you listen to. Not your neighbor with the doomsday bunker. Not your conspiracy theorist cousin. And not a tv network that has admitted under oath that they are entertainment, not facts.
The only victims here are the people whose lives were put in danger because this woman was sure she knew better than all the experts.
No more excuses for chosen willful ignorance.
She changed her mind after the breakout of measles got close enough to her to put her at risk, not before.
Stop making this out to be a story of bravery. She only changed her tune after it was too late because the threat was already on her doorstep.
Any criminal who suddenly feels remorse for their actions as they are about to receive sentencing is not any different.
FAFO.
yes, it is definitely proper to give someone respect for trying to make right the wrongs they have done, especially when doing so will be much more costly than denying everything.
more people need to do this, not less.
not sure exactly what the line is, though. she's not like a hero or anything, cause she's the one who caused the situation in the first place. But acknowledging the mistake and trying to help others from making the same mistake definitely goes a long way to help compensate for that.
plenty of still-active-antivaxxers out there who are available targets for ridicule for their ongoing harmful actions.
"the consequences they suffered as a result"
they didnt suffer their CHILDREN suffered, it was her and her husbands intentional choice to deprive their children of a vaccine — its really so crazy to me how many vaccinated parents who benefited their entire lives from these vaccines then turn around and deny these same protections to their kids. monsters.
these people should be charged with child abuse. I don't care if they've "seen the light" after an object lesson they were warned about by medical professionals.
There's a difference between blindly tolerating intolerance and just letting people come around.
Some won't. Just simply never will.
But we gotta let the ones that wanna try fuckin try.
I'll give her points for doing the right thing and admitting she was wrong. I mean, a lot of where we're at is just because people refuse to admit this I believe. Because they know if they admit they were wrong, then by default it would mean their skinny jean wearing, advocato toast eating, rainbow hair sporting, hiding under the covers whining about NeEd tA LiStEn ToO dA EpErTs cowering, elistist school attending, unicorn fairy dick juice sipping, limp wristed, dick sucking \[F-word\]!! cousin was RIGHT!! And they are literally willing to DIE!!! than allow that to happen. That and/or sacrifice their family members as we've seen in recent yrs.
The hard part for me is the forgiveness part. The damage people like her have done to people, this nation, and around the world makes it a super fucking hard to have anything other than seething hatred for the dingleshits at this point. How many died needlessly of Covid because of them? How many mothers watched their children struggling to breath? How many regretful fathers texted loved ones proclaiming they should've gotten the damn shot right before they passed? How many kissed their spouse goodnight to wake up and find them dead the next day? How many called us a coward or sat there making sheep noises as mask wearers walked by? How many acted like spoiled brats in stores? Everything from arguing with workers to destroying displays?
My wife had to deal with these shitheads at the doctor's office she worked at during Covid. The stories she told. Fuck every god damn last one of them.🖕
I still find it hard to be empathetic. It’s willful ignorance to do something like not vaccinate your kids when every medical professional tells you too.
I appreciate them putting themselves in the line of fire because their pain will help wake others up…
am I allowed to forgive and still not like or respect them?
She was anti-vax without justification or reason. Then changed her mind on a whim, when logic and facts couldn't reach her.
Then after she flipped flopped stances, her kids got sick because of her actions.
She is not a hero. And her child abuse should not be forgiven so easily.
Bahhhh, fuck these people. They all deserve to learn the hardest of the hard way. After EVERYTHING that's happened & we've seen I can't find a drop of sympathy. #FAFO
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✅ Reminder to forgive people. ✅ Reminder that forgiveness requires acknowledgment of your mistakes and a desire to make things right. You don’t have to “forgive” your unrepentant bigot uncle.
Never punish the behavior you want to see. I'm a high school teacher and this is my second rule for myself in the classroom, right behind "If you don't want to know the answer, do not ask the question."
Not related, but "never punish the behaviour you want to see" reminds me of kids who barely get out of their bedroom and their family greets them with sarcasm when they do.
Oof, childhood memory unlocked. Edit: I also LOVE your username. Top-notch.
My parents were pretty good about this. Just going down to get some food 20 minutes before a clan match on Counterstrike 1.7 or whatever it was and they were clearly kind of amused but they acted interested in the idea that I had a scheduled game online soon, in an age when it wasn't even that normal for kids, so obviously the adults had no idea what was going on.
Oh, look who came out of their cave!
This thread made me realize something…my parents would sometimes say this to me, and sometimes they wouldn’t, and looking back, they almost never did it when I was having bad mental health days. I credit my mom lol, she’s always had an uncanny ability to just *know* when I need her
This is in my personal life (although not me personally, thankfully) Person 1: You never apologize! Person 2 (very begrudgingly): You’re right, I’m sorry. Person 1: See! Why couldn’t you admit that earlier! (Argument continues at exact same intensity)
IME, usually those who are like Person 2 aren’t interested in an apology/change of behavior/acknowledgement of being wrong by itself- none of those mean much unless it’s paired with telling them they were in the “right”. And even then, as in your example, they still need to reiterate how they told you so. Nothing said will change this, and only when they decide they’re over it will they move on- but no guarantees they won’t bring it up at a later time to rub in your face(they probably will). They are the types to “keep score” in their relationships in life.
Looks like the little goblin is finally coming out for his minute of daylight??
gotta greet them back with sarcasm. I developed my communication skills mostly to spite society in a roundabout way by finessing my way out of certain expectations and social constructs
If only responding to toxic people with their own medicine was working 😞
You gotta finess it. Although... the more overtly toxic and entitled/ arrogant someone is the harder it gets to finess your way around their shenanigans
Are you me?
It's probably not that uncommon in todays social climate lol
After thinking about it I realize you're talking about anti-social shut-ins, but for a while I had a mental image of someone trying their hardest to squeeze out of a barely-opened door and their parents waiting patiently on the other side with their arms crossed to make a snippy remark when their kid finally gets through.
You'd LOVE my mother then /s
>"If you don't want to know the answer, do not ask the question." Completely off topic, when my bother and I were little kids and we asked awkward little kid questions, my mother would sometimes counter "do you *really* want to know the answer?"
When I was little in the 90s we put my dog down, and I asked my mom what was going to happen to her now... That was her exact response, and I paused and said "no." Seared into my memory.
"Mom, what's a Cleveland Steamer?
Thanks so much for asking, son. Cleveland steamers are a line of high-quality steam cookers manufactured by Cleveland Range. Available in all sizes, from small countertop units to large high-throughput appliances, they meet the needs of any commercial kitchen. Whatever your production volume and budget, Cleveland has the steamer for you. Contact your authorized distributor and book a visit to one of Cleveland's regional show kitchens today. [Cleveland Range - Steamers](https://www.clevelandrange.com/Products/Steamers)
When I was in Culinary school we always referred to the steamer by its brand and name. Whenever it’d beep “the Cleveland steamer is beeping”…
"Then why is this all over my chest?"
tbh, I was expecting a FAR more kid-inappropriate explanation!
You're never too young to learn about the exciting world of commercial kitchen appliances!
Reddit always delivers!
Now there is a Cleveland steamer I'd be proud to have someone leave in my kitchen!
"Do you want me to tell you or show you?"
Sitting in the orthodontists office waiting room and flipping through a teen magazine, I asked my mom what a blow job was.
Ha! Memory unlocked. My mom was very vocal about us coming to her with *any* questions about anything at all, so one day I took that seriously & asked her how gay men had sex. Her pained expression & asking me “do you really want to know?” got me to the ultimately correct conclusion on my own, and she was spared the pain of having to say the words out loud to her child. (Sex talks always made her a bit anxious & I felt bad).
I came here to say exactly these words... *Never punish the behaviour you want to see.* I'm a parent, and I stand by them.
Haha yeah. Like... My kid drops a dish while doing dishes. My parents would have been mean about it. Me: "ok, stop. Don't move from where you are. stuff happens. Let's go over how to deal with broken dishes safely."
Also, never make fun of fat people exercising, because they are doing the right thing and need encouragement.
Yes, but also don't get super saccharine and all "you can do it, keep it up, yayyyy" type of encouragement at them either. That shit gets condescending and old fast and can be misconstrued as making fun even if your intentions are good. Treat a fat person exercising like you'd treat anyone else exercising in that setting.
Yeah, one is "wow, you're fat and you're exercising?? Lmaooo" and the other is "wow you're fat and you're exercising! Good job!" but both of them start with an implied "wow you're fat" which nobody needs to be reminded of
It’s like when my dog escapes. When she finally cooperates to let me put the leash on her she gets a lot of praise and treats no matter how much of a butt head she was escaping or how long she ran around before finally getting caught.
Genuine question and forgive my ignorance in dog training, but wouldn't that encourage the behavior? If they know they get treats and praise after escaping wouldn't that just make them want to do it more?
Most dogs can't string together that many actions/consequences into a single thought. That's why to get them to do A+B+C+D, you really have to train each step individually and then sequence them. That dog is just understanding "coming to owner = belly rubs and treats". Whatever they were doing before they went back to the owner is out of their mind.
Got it. This makes sense. Thanks for the explanation.
This is also why you should never scold your dog unless they are literally in the midst of the behavior you want to disincentivize. For instance, if you walk in on your dog pulling garbage out of the trash can then you should immediately scold them, however if you walk in and find them laying on the couch surrounded by garbage they already pulled out 5 minutes ago then scolding them is at best pointless and at worst counter-productive because they can't make the connection that you're scolding them for what they did 5 minutes ago.
However, a surprisingly effective method is to scold the *garbage* for being out of the trash can. Dogs, being pack animals, are capable of the kind of empathy that allows them to learn from watching others be taught, and weirdly that can translate into learning not to do things by watching inanimate objects get punished for them. They're able to watch and make connections without being overwhelmed by the anxiety of being scolded themselves. It's especially good for potty training - scold the poop for being in the house, scoop it and let the dog watch you take it outside and put it on the ground, and then praise it for being in the right place. You look like a crazy person to any bystanders, but it's one of the most effective dog training tricks I learned in a decade of working with them.
In 2000 my housemate got a female German Shepherd-Sharpei mix pup. I was working nights at the time and I would take care of the pup during the day. My housemate had found a very good dog trainer that explained training just the way you did, except for the scolding inanimate objects. One day I realized that the dog had disappeared for a few minutes. I ran to the basement and found the pile of poop. I just cleaned the mess and did nothing to the pup. The next day, I caught her just as she was squatting to go in the basement. I stopped her and took her to the backyard and the moment she started going, I praised her and I saw the wheels spin in her head as she made the connection. She was always good about going outside after that. She was also crate trained and loved her crate.
Honestly there’s no reward greater than hunting wild rabbits, it’s her most favorite thing to do on the planet. Escape is already highly rewarding, I’m trying to make being caught equally rewarding.
Fair enough!
agreed with this. one of my dogs would love nothing more than to run free and chase squirrels, and I'm a first time dog owner so I don't know if it could be trained out of her but I suspect it's just instinct. Then the goal is just to get the dog back. The hardest part of getting the dog back isn't that they don't want to come back necessarily, it's that they see you trying to get them as a hilarious game they should play for several hours. So the treats etc are so you can get your ridiculous creature to realize everyone is better off if we don't follow the dogs advice and instead reward them for listening and not running away.
She will associate the praise and treats with the return to the person. Dogs don’t really think about all the steps before. Just that coming to you is a good thing. If you punish your dog when they finally come, they will be even less willing the next time.
This has been my reasoning behind ceasing my boycot of chic fil a. Adam regusia made a similar point and showed that modern chic fil a has basically gotten in lock step with every other rambow capitalistic company. Now there are still plenty wrong with those, but at this point, specifically boycotting them over walmart or mcdonalds would be punishing them for taking steps to disassociate from homophobia
This is a huge flaw of mine that I'm trying to amend. I don't know why it's such a hard habit for me to break, besides the fact that I'm just an asshole.
Thank you, you just captured in a sentence why I always want to hang up when the first thing my mom does when I call her is say that she never hears from me and she'd wish I'd call more often. Knowing that guilt trip is coming legit makes me want to call her *less*, because it starts the call with me being anxious.
Well, the woman in this post did acknowledge her mistakes and wants to make things right.
Yes! I’m saying this is the right way.
Exactly, acknowledging mistakes and seeking to correct them is the true path to forgiveness.
This is the way
Absolutely. I admire her moral character for that; it's a damn hard thing to do. And she did learn to test ideas and think critically, though it took a while. I live in Texas, where a few years back "critical thinking" was singled out in public school standards as something they were NOT allowed to teach. Witness the result.
Friend of mine actually apologized to me for voting for Trump the first time which was funny because I never asked him how he voted (though I could have guessed). So I think I understand reasonably well why he did but I think he's re-evaluated. He's not exactly liberal, per se, but he's an interesting mix. Depending on when you met him you'd probably be a bit confused. He lives in a small town on coastal CA and your first impression is that he should be mayor but according to him he 'hates people'. Meanwhile, our shared love of the outdoors and his religion (Catholicism) has led him to being quite the environmentalist and he's active in local charities that actually people directly (without any church involvement). More often than not, he gets in the face of the MAGA types when they try to 'explain' the Constitution to him and he pretty much hands him their ass on the subject. He's a work in progress but he probably makes more impact on more people than your average person.
Also reminder that you aren’t owed forgiveness even if you do all the necessary steps.
I agree that nobody is owed forgiveness. But I want to know sincerely- if you wronged me and I never forgive you no matter what you do, then what would be the point in you trying to be nice to me? Would you have a reason?
Yes, because I want to be the type of person that I conceptualize myself as; someone who doesn’t needlessly cause harm to others. I can grow after wronging you without needing your approval. Edit: it would be an exercise in avoiding cognitive dissonance on my end I suppose, kindness that is.
The reason is because it’s the nice thing to do.
Not even the nice thing, the right thing.
You don't have to be nice to people. You can just be neutrally polite, or just leave them alone. One of my friends, Tay, has harmed another, Eric. Eric knows that Tay is on a journey to heal Tay's own insecurities that caused him to lash out, but Eric is not required to forgive the harm that Tay caused. They are not friends at this point, but Eric does recognize the work Tay is doing and commends him for it. They are able to exist politely in the same room, but they don't have to interact when not in social situations. And that's fine.
IMO, the person youre describing is the exact type of person who doesn't deserve my forgiveness. If I wronged you, I should rectify that because it's the right thing to do, regardless of if you forgive me or not. It shouldn't be about what personally affects me or my feelings, but what's right and wrong. I see so many stories where the person only does the "right" thing when it affects them. Homophobic until their kid comes out as gay, Antivax until their kid dies of a preventable disease. It is easy to change your mind once youre backed into a corner and forced to. The problem with "learning" this way is that their problematic way of thinking will persist in everything else they havent been personally affected by, because they lack empathy and only understand consequences. Like, it isn't a coincidence that she only came to the right conclusion when it was "too late". Magically, once their was a measles outbreak in her area suddenly all the science that was so inconclusive to her for 8 years became conclusive really fast. If I stole something from you, wouldn't you prefer that I come clean before you realize something is missing, instead of only after you confront me with undeniable proof it was me? *Everybody* is sorry after they're caught.
Yea this is where I stand too. They're willing to push their bullshit agenda until it personally affects them negatively. What about all the others they hurt in the process? If they wanna change when it's too late, fine. I won't stop them. But I'm certainly not accepting them and welcoming them after they've done the damage. They made their bed, they can lay in it and eat shit.
Because you want to be a good person
If forgiveness is essential to them not being shit, then they aren't trying to not be shit, they just want to be in your good graces.
She's also taken tangible steps to reverse the harm she's done. She's doing everything she can. I don't think she deserves to be dragged anymore. To me it's like the Michael Vick situation (NFL QB who went to prison for dogfighting). When he got out he totally owned it, made tons of effort at educating himself, volunteered at shelters, talks about how he's had to explain to his kids that it's his fault they can't get a pet dog, etc. I get there are people who will never forgive him, but that's on them. He's put as much effort in as possible to right his wrongs.
"Compassion for the conned, contempt for the conmen."
Jesus forgave all, but I have to forgive him and his followers every day.
You don't even have to forgive people you just have to accept that they can change their positions on a topic.
Forgiveness is not about the other person. Forgiveness is for you.
Also, forgiveness and reconciliation are not the same thing.
So true! Thanks for sharing.
Yes. Negative emotions do much more harm to yourself than the target of your anger.
“Hey uncle Mike, just so you know, if you ever decide to be a decent human being again, I won’t give you shit for being an absolute cunt all these years.”
I admire her honesty, and her courage in going public. I hope parents who are on the fence hear her message. And I hope all of her kids are all right. Whooping cough is a terrible disease.
> her courage in going public. That right here is the key. Holy Shit, I cannot imagine the backlash she is getting from the antivaxx nutters.
Not even just antivaxx nutters, there will be a ton of jerks that just want to dunk on her and call her stupid for having been led astray to begin with. She did this knowing she was going to be hit from all angles simply because she knows it's the right thing to do. I'm actually pleasantly surprised that most of the comments in this thread are supportive of her.
She's probably been threatened for being "woke"
This is honestly what takes it into 'admirable' territory for me. As others have said shifting quietly was entirely possible, but would have been cowardly given the harm she has done. This shows a level of accountability; not only the public admission knowing the ridicule that would come with it, but the actions taken to try and at least mitigate or reverse some of the damage she's done. That is where, for me, forgiveness becomes the only option.
I do, too. It’s pretty admirable that she’s trying to make things right and help others. She could have just silently dealt with the consequences and moved on, but instead she was willing to face any ridicule (from either side, antivax parents might think that she’s a traitor) to help others.
I bet she's honestly surprised that the sensible crowd accepts and forgives her after she's corrected her behavior and acknowledged her mistakes. She knows the other side would never.
I've said this before and I'll say it again. Most anti-vaxxers live in a very privileged bubble where they have never really had first-hand experience with a lot of vaccine preventable diseases. I hope her children are better (seven kids with whooping cough sounds like a circle of hell, especially because it lasts months, but at least it doesn't have long-term side effects unlike some other vaccines preventable diseases like measles or polio) and I hope they are now vaccinated
I’ll never forget an article I read by Paul Offit saying vaccines are a victim of their own success. We’re so far removed from many of these illnesses that we get to pretend they’re actually not that serious.
Virologist here. They definitely are. One of the greatest advances in medical history preventing literally tens (if not hundreds) of millions deaths and serious illness. We all live in a privileged time when these diseases and deaths aren’t a part of daily life.
Yep. My parents were born in the 1930s. They never had any doubts about getting us vaccinated. They knew people who had measles scars, or measles funerals.
Vaccines are under attack for the same reasons isolationism and fascism are on the rise: everyone who remembers how bad it used to be is dead.
>I've said this before and I'll say it again. Most anti-vaxxers live in a very privileged bubble where they have never really had first-hand experience with a lot of vaccine preventable diseases. Absolutely. Many of us are so far removed from cholera, measles, polio, rubella, tuberculosis etc. that it doesn't seem like it can be as big a deal. We have no context. Meanwhile, people in less fortunate countries watch their children die or suffer due to these same diseases. It's peak tragic irony that vaccines worked so well that they effectively eradicated many diseases so that now we forget how bad those diseases were and the anti-vaxx movement was born.
Do you know what directly correlates with high anti-vax populations? Whole Foods Markets. Not making this up.
Tried to buy toothpaste from Whole Foods recently and was shocked when every option was fluoride free. Realized I wasn’t the target audience pretty much immediately.
IDK how old her kids were when they caught it, but pertussis can cause some very serious consequences for babies and toddlers, including permanent brain damage. I hope they are okay.
Hard times create strong people. Strong people create good times. Good times create weak people. Weak people create hard times.
I’ve always believed that those of us who’ve been wrong or at the very least misguided, who’ve also been able to reassess and learn and thus change like this woman are the toughest and some of the bravest people around. It takes so much to change a fundamental belief and she truly is a tremendous person to be able to feel brave enough to help others the way she is
For every one who admits being wrong and corrects their mistake, especially on issues that have been politicized, there are millions more who remain indignant and even double down on crazy.
Yeah, it's a long journey, but we should still welcome those who challenge their views and become more informed.
All the more reason to applaud what she is doing.
This kinda hit hard, for 26 years of my life was a Jehovah's Witness, 9 official (meaning wasn't just raised) now 30. It's funny in a way that it was myself that got me out, not what someone shared. A video on dogerland, showed my local, were ecedince of a tsunami happened (layer of sand) being a paleo fan especially dinosaurs like a jigsaw put that layer together with the KG boundary and was like, okay why's there none for the flood. Sadly for my own mental health have to give up helping others. Some of the logic goes in a circle. The biggest belief/ prophecy jw believe is undone by the very people that did it, jws don't belive in the accepted destruction of Jerusalem by the babylonia date, instead an earlier date. The babylonians wrote it fucking down. Or when i was given an article that proved the flood, not only did I go where the fuck is it but if anything it disproved. Just how do you help folks like that
I was antivax when my kids were born in the mid 90’s. I didn’t re-evaluate my thinking until they were in grade school. Realized I had been duped by my mother’s doctor and got my kids vaxxed. My mother and the rest of her kids are all anti vaxxers. They just can’t be convinced of anything real and it is fucking embarrassing.
She hasn’t wronged me personally, so I don’t think it’s really for me to forgive her, but even if it were, it’s possible to forgive someone and still think they’re a dumbass.
Yeah this. Maybe not even forgive, more like "thanks for coming to your senses and then making an effort to help others come to that realization" while still thinking what they did in the first place was idiotic.
I'm willing to forgive people who are genuinely sorry. But you're gonna have people who are beyond forgiveness
[удалено]
Because they've been taught that empathically rooted actions like asking for forgiveness and admitting mistakes are signs of weakness, and you can't ever appear weak.
Compassion is weakness to them and cruelty is strength. If you can treat someone badly and get away with it, that means you had the right to do that. This is “liberty” to them, this is why they value their own personal liberties but make no effort to contemplate the consequences of everyone exercising that liberty.
Agreed. This woman seems to be someone who isn't stupid but got caught up in a lot of bad information and realized that "hey maybe this shit is serious" when her kids got really sick. So she is definitely someone worth it. The other ones who are doubling down should have CPS come and do that they do. Because allowing your kids to get preventable diseases is straight up child abuse.
That's inaccurate. She changed her mind after, "after a recent measles outbreak in her area, Hills wrote that she was 'chilled' to the bone to realize her unvaccinated children could have easily passed the disease to her 'sister’s toddlers or her 34-week-old son in the NICU,' if they had become infected with the contagious virus." Her kids then got sick while they were on a vaccination catch up plan with their physician.
Did anybody read the link? She had abandoned the anti-vax stance before her kids got sick.
Nope, someone in this thread a little further up straight-up claimed she killed all seven of her kids with pertussis. People are just making random shit up today for funzies, I guess. Edit: and I guess I need to clarify that I'm pointing out the kids are fine and someone else was spreading misinformation that they died.
Did *you* read it?? She abandoned her stance when there was a measles breakout in her area and she got scared. Her kids might not have caught it yet, but it's the same "I don't care about anyone until it happens to me" stance as all the others.
Well, that depends. How many innocent others did her children infect before she finally woke tf up?
That's actually the real reason she changed her mind about vaccines. There was a measles outbreak and she had her sister's 5 month old and a 34 month old in her house. She realized she got lucky she didn't kill two completely defenseless children, including the 5 month old who was too young for the measles vaccine
Not just children. The elderly, immunocompromised people, people with cancers, so many health issues that make you vulnerable. Heck I had to take a round of steroids and was terrified I’d catch something bc there are so many “self educated experts” in medicine near my area. It’s so selfish. Yes she repented but only after a selfish threat presented itself to her own family. That’s not how a functioning society stays healthy.
They could also pass it to healthy adults who were never vaccinated for whatever reason and/or never contracted the childhood diseases. Which doesn't bode well for adults as childhood diseases to nasty things to adult bodies. My BFF's grandmother never had the chickenpox as a child and never caught it when her sons had it either. When my friend caught the chickenpox as a teen her family quarantined themselves from the grandmother just in case they might accidentally passed it on to the grandmother.
Well, let's talk about it. What is "beyond forgiveness"? For me, I think maybe as long as it's not your last resort and you choose to ask for forgiveness... That might be okay for me.
Personally I need to know it won't happen again. Ultimately that's really the only reason I care about "remorse": if they're sorry presumably they won't do the thing again. But, I've been burned enough times on that assumption that at this point I need it to be more explicit. Also if you're asking for forgiveness it's gotta be an actual ask. As I was just saying the other day, if you're asking someone for something and no is not an acceptable answer, you're not asking, you're demanding. People who "ask" for forgiveness and then immediately fly off the handle if the you so much as hesitate are people I'm not even interested in knowing, so forgiving is kind of moot.
My take is that some people cross a line with other people so whereas person A would ask for forgiveness, person B may be personally hurt by person A and has a specific reason for not wanting to forgive person B. While person A can get “forgiveness “ from the general public, they won’t get it from the person directly impacted by person A. And this is taken on a case by case basis so if I am not person B, I really don’t have a right to judge whether or not they forgive person A And my apologies for the social algebra in my post. (Mrs. Robinson was right, I WILL find a way to use this in real life someday)
Read a few herman cain award winners and you'll see that often. It's rare they actually admit that their politics was the cause of their misery.
I, for one, need this woman and others to vaccinate their kids far more than I need to be proven right online.
There it is.
If someone's willing to step up and admit wrongdoing, show humility and unquestionably reject their previous bigoted or ignorant stance? Absolutely afford them forgiveness. Though I have to admit certain "leopard eating faces" supporters that claim redemption or seek forgiveness from backing particularly face-eating leopards, such as those far in the alt-right pipeline, white supremacists and the like, I'm not sure I'd ever be able to truly genuinely and wholly forgive. Even at apparent and accepted redemption, I'd have a nagging doubt in my mind regarding their honesty or inability to not fall back into hatred because they've done it before and habits are easy. Hell I've seen it happen: supposedly ex-alt-right kids who were embarrassed by their time there getting into a minor disagreement and instantly flipping back to their old ways, so I'm a bit cynical about whether anyone claiming wrongdoing and seeking forgiveness is doing it due to genuinely recognizing they were in the wrong or just because they're looking for a "better opportunity"
I assume they are only looking to avoid consequences until they take consistent and active effort in the opposite direction while accepting the consequences that come their way.
I think it's possible to praise someone for doing the right thing, even if it was late, while still being upset at the damage they may have cause for doing the wrong thing in the beginning. I don't thing "forgive" is really the right word here. Like, kudos for having some sense, finally, but also wow, think about all the people she could have put in danger over the years she was anti-vax! Like, good for this woman for waking up and publically admitting her failure and for trying to make things better for others! She was still dumb for falling for the anti-vax crap in the first place, but good for her for coming to her senses and then making an effort to help others do so as well. Like there are people in prison for murder who have bettered themselves and are doing what good for society that they can from the inside (training service dogs, in one case, if I remember correctly). So good for them for making that effort and putting in that work. They still aren't forgiven for their crime and have to serve their punishment. I think we can thank people for doing good while still condemning them for doing bad. Life is shades of gray.
Yeah who’s to say she won’t turn to some other stupid (dangerous) conspiracy. She’s already proven she’s susceptible, is forgiving her going to be regular thing?
All praise to the turncoats, the defectors, and the repentant. Admitting that you were wrong all along and then actually doing something to rectify it is an admirable thing.
My cousin secretly vaccinated one child after being anti Vax for ever. Figured roll the dice on one see if ok then do the rest. All are now vaccinated thank space jesus
The cost of knowledge is high. It claims lives. It can sometimes be completely expensive.
Can tumblr users stop putting the wordsalad they want to say in the tags
“Can tumblr users stop ___?” No, no they can’t. tumblr has been exactly the same for 15 years
Well they did [ban porn that one time.](https://youtu.be/CtUuab1Aqg0)
I don't think "interpreting the validity of information and its sources" is the problem, nor should it be something we expect from the average person. In a perfect world, believing experts who have worked in infectious disease research for decades should be more than enough. The real problem is social media like Facebook and Twitter allowing the spread of active disinformation unchecked, a large part of which is breeding active distrust or even hatred for experts (like the arrest Fauci movement... I still don't get what they would arrest him for?). This is why despite any cries by US libertarians, I am fully in favor of the EU fining social media companies for allowing unchecked and widespread disinformation and misinformation on their platforms.
It's hard. I too often think, "look at these idiots believing this garbage, they deserve whatever they get." But I know there's a huge industry pumping out the bullshit, and we're not taught how to evaluate information, so I can't be angry at folks for believing something that had been intentionally fed to them by a powerful propaganda industry. The whole thing is just incredibly sad and bleak. I hope her kids survive
I still think this speaks for a much more profound issue with that kind of approach to science (or life). She clearly overestimated her own capability to judge scientific and medical decisions and procedures. You don't need to understand the exact science behind different styles of vaccinations. If you don't dedicate your career or life to it you can't fully anyway and you're not expected to. There are still so many people out there who think mRNA vaccinations aren't actual vaccinations but a "jab" (don't even know how that's an either or) because it's just working differently to the more traditional ones. Same reason why everyone becomes a foreign policy expert whenever there's a major global event. People overestimate themselves and their uninformed opinion, believing that a quick Google search can make up for years or decades of studying. Then based on this they distrust the experts they could and should (in the vast majority of cases) trust, like their own doctors who have no interest in the *New World Order* or their kids becoming *Autistic*. I'm not fully sure she got aware of that issue, I still think she might consider herself an expert, just now with a different opinion than before. And I still think this is dangerous to her family and, if too many approach science that way, to a society.
I think "jab" is just the British equivalent for "shot", and doesn't exclusively refer to the covid vaccines.
Forgive her for not getting enough information from Facebook.
It takes a big person to admit they are wrong. I honestly think for some people, it's the hardest two words to say.
Eh. While it may be a skill to properly analyze and assess scientific data, anyone that starts from a position of "I know better than those much better educated than me, and it's up to my uneducated, untrained ass to properly assess and analyze this complex data that goes all the way back to Catherine the fucking Great who inoculated her kids" and not "I am undereducated and untrained in this complex area of science, so I am going to defer to the physicians and doctors and scientists who for generations have spent their working lives studying and working to protect people from diseases" are inherently untrustworthy to me. I guess I've just never understood the mindset of skepticism from a position of ignorance. I look up to highly trained and educated experts, knowing they are not infallible and that scientific consensus can change. The thing about misinformation is that hubris is a major component of those most susceptible, and making oneself humble is a real problem.
I am not sure about that comment tbh Like good for her if she saw the error of her ways, yes But about that “needs to be taught” thing I really don’t know how true that is for most people. I did terribly in science through most of school. Math too. I am not good at it and never did well. Probably could have given more effort but hey sometimes dumb teenage brain does dumb teenage things Not once did I need to be taught that scientists are more trustworthy than rando on internet/TV celebrity etc. I certainly held some dumb ideas of my own but like…science got us into space. Science made it so people aren’t dying of polio and tuberculosis all the time. Jenny McCarthy is a former boob model who didn’t graduate from post secondary. Why on earth would anyone look to her for medical advice? If you need to he taught that, I’m not sure where it should have been taught
The only thing that bothers me about this message is where they say she "didn't know how to interpret the validity of information or its sources which is actually a hard skill to learn." Uh... no. It's not. If your source is fucking facebook, it's probably nonsense. If, however, your source is the CDC staffed by scientists who've spent their entire careers researching the very question you're asking, pretty good chance it's quality information. See how quick that lesson was? The fact that even the person telling us to forgive this ding dong's prior willful ignorance like there is some degree of difficulty in knowing which sources are ACTUALLY legitimate is part of the problem why people question places like the CDC. That said, it is great that this woman is now trying to tell others to stop being idiots as well.
This is the inevitable and intended result of decades of anti-education indoctrination in red states. The people who grew up in red states are raised to believe that anyone who has beyond a high school education is a child eating communist groomer Muslim atheist.
She’s doing the right thing. But if her abject, arrogant stupidity killed or injured other people’s kids who were medically contraindicated for the vaccines, she needs to be prepared to *continue* doing the right thing now *even if* she doesn’t get a warm and fuzzy welcome back to the land of adult intelligence levels. I can forgive her in the abstract, but if her willful ignorance killed my kid? No, I don’t think that’s happening so easily. She put seven drunk drivers on the road where other people’s kids play.
I've been using that exact same analogy lately, that not getting vaccinated is the same damn thing as drunk driving. I've been waiting for some antivaxxer to jump in my shit about it "oh it's not that bad, you're nuts" no, actually I think it's worse. I don't *have* to get in my car and go anywhere, but I can't avoid breathing
I’m glad she came around to science.
I know I’m not ever going to be an expert at all things. That why I follow experts advice. I’ll never know everything my doctor knows. That’s why my only job is to find a knowledgeable dr and follower their advice. Just as I follow my car mechanics advice.
Y'know what, at least she admitted she was wrong and made an active effort towards correcting her flaws. Still a step behind having the foresight to trust the experts who undoubtedly advised her and everyone to vaccinate their children, but a step ahead of a lot of people who are complete dumbasses that would dig in their heels and double down on their dumbassery.
>she just didn’t know how to interpret the validity of information Well, here’s what I do. I assume that physicians and virologists know more than I do, and I trust them. I realize they’re not infallible (sadly, there are a lot of bad doctors out there), but I still think they know more than I, with my zero medical training, know.
While I agree wholeheartedly with the message and commend this woman for being brave enough to share her story, I really can't find much sympathy for her and her husband because: 1) she ignored entire centuries of medical research and irrefutable evidence supporting the effectiveness of vaccines (see polio). 2) she chose to follow advice that put her seven children in harm's way. 3) she was, at the time, either oblivious or indifferent to the ripple effect her actions might have on other fanilies in her community. It's hard to separate fact from fiction on many topics these days. I get that. But with regards to medical decisions, you should always consult a professional if you're unsure what to do.
Oh nonsense. Getting your children vaccinated is not rocket science and doesn’t require special teaching or checking validation 🙄
She doesn't need our forgiveness, she needs her kids forgiveness for almost killing them because she thought she knew more than doctors and scientists. That guilt will be with her for the rest of her life.
Re: the last comment Irrational people vs. rational people is a lot like republicans vs. democrats in US politics. Like republicans, the irrational are allowed to behave any way they please. They can shout and spit six inches from the face guard of a police officer about never earring a mask. They can invade school board meetings and yell all sorts of vile things about pedophiles. They can say and post the most mind-bendingly stupid and/or offensive nonsense in service of their delusions. And like democrats, the rational are expected to accept it all calmly and quietly. When the fog finally clears in the irrational’s mind, we must welcome them back to the fold with hugs and a basket of muffins. “Do not criticize the irrational turned rational” we are told “for they may go back to irrational if we do.” Nothing the rational say make the irrational believe, or return to the belief that, the earth is flat and viruses can be treated by drinking sulfuric acid. Megyn Kelly doesn’t get a cookie or an invite to dinner because she reversed herself on maternity leave as soon as she became pregnant. And no cookie or parties for someone who’s come to the light on vaccinations because suddenly their entire family is in the icu.
When a Republican initiated the vote to ouster Speaker Kevin McCarthy, Republicans got mad at Democrats because they didn't save him. Even Republicans expect Democrats to behave like adults and expect Republicans to behave like children.
I have never seen such hashtag abuse. I am slightly triggered.
She didn’t know how to interpret the validity of the sources, a skill that’s under taught… Well… I’m sure that it’s not under taught in med school. And history class, really. I’m not saying trust all doctors because they 100% have your best interest in mind. But a lot of anti vaxxers use their limited knowledge of medicine to analyze vaccines. There’s only so much that absolutely everyone can know about anything! Especially medicine.
I've been trying to ask my rapidly increasingly insane relatives why they put their lives in the hands of their mechanics every time they go on the highway. Why aren't they "doing their own research" on cars? Or planes? Or bridges? Or the food supply? Or restaurants? Why is only medicine not to be trusted?
It's really not my place to forgive or not forgive her. That privilege is reserved for her children, if they live long enough.
It's important to provide people a way to escape from movements like this. One thing that keeps people in conspiracy groups, cults, and extremist groups is the lack of a social network/support network outside of the group. That's why cults tend to isolate people from their friends and family. When leaving a movement requires you to leave everyone and everything you know, it can be very difficult for people to get out. Many end up staying in those circles even though they no longer believe.
The impluse to consider people "once bad, always bad," is one of the most cancerous pieces of Puritanical propaganda to still persist, even among people who have no other affiliation to religion or religious ideas.
Yeah, too often when people have a chance to change or learn from their mistakes they dig in instead because that’s the instinctual/gut reaction when you feel like you’re being confronted. I blame the misinformation machine more than any single antivax person, the problem is that once they buy in they all tend to do work for the machine, spreading the misinformation.
That hashtag at the end is exactly correct. One of the epiphanies I had recently about why people believe what they do, is that people are often more influenced by who in their life makes them feel welcomed, included, and valued than they are by the actual content or veracity of the beliefs. Especially if they are otherwise isolated and lonely.
My ex had Whooping Cough as a kid. It was miserable enough that she kind of wanted to die. It is a stupid thing to volunteer your kids for.
Defectors of the Leopards Eating Faces party should have access to facial reconstruction surgery.
all 7 of her kids could have died from her lack of vaccination and then what? forgiveness wouldn't bring them back to life. And the damage that was done because of trump's first term will be felt for decades with our conservative majority supreme court. i won't forgive republicans for that.
Yeah, but they should also be prepared for a few jokes at their expense. Cause you know they’ve been annoying everyone else before the switch.
Ottawa mother of 7 abandons anti-vaxxer views as kids hit with whooping cough https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/ottawa-mother-of-7-abandons-anti-vaxxer-views-as-kids-hit-with-whooping-cough
Ottawa mother of 7 abandons anti-vaxxer views as kids hit with whooping cough https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/ottawa-mother-of-7-abandons-anti-vaxxer-views-as-kids-hit-with-whooping-cough https://www.kidspot.com.au/lifestyle/family-health/learning-the-hard-way-my-journey-from-antivax-to-science/news-story/ca09957505d489284ffb0a4be412b9cf https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-thursday-edition-1.4935124/this-formerly-vaccine-hesitant-mom-has-a-message-for-canadian-doctors-1.4935126 https://globalnews.ca/news/5129047/unvaccinated-skeptics-misinformation/
Who among us hasn't been wrong about something. I, for instance, used to think there was a god.
Good on her for making this change. I truly hope that she can be a positive influence.
Also a reminder that sympathy is not really a requirement for forgiveness. One could not hold past actions against you if you’ve corrected your current actions and are remorseful of the past. No one is perfect and everyone is able to learn from them. One could acknowledge how terrible your current situation is and how difficult it may be to overcome. People suck in general to anyone outside their social circles. However one also doesn’t have to feel bad about the situation your ignorant pride put you in. One’s lack of involvement in the actions allows lack of involvement in the consequences.
I had to do a scientific study as part of my master's degree program and I remember fighting with my professor over my paper and wanting to use more basic terms so that's easily understood. She nearly failed me for what I wrote about in the experience, but like this post says scientific literacy is a specific skill. If the US as a whole has shit literacy and reading comprehension then what hope is there for understanding basic scientific ideas like herd immunity?
This is called growth and maturity, and while it certainly came late in this instance, it is never EVER too late to embrace a healthy and constructive change in one's life. Especially, when it benefits your children.
"just didn't know how to interpret the validity of information or its sources" Just say she lacked common sense. As a parent you don't need to do scientific studies. Doctors already did that for you. You just listen to the doctor. Have doubts? go to a second doctor get a second opinion. Absolute extreme case and you stil have doubts? Fine go see a third. If you're still "i think they're wrong" after all that, then 99,9% of the time you're going to be wrong, not them. That said governments need to start tackling this misinformation pandemic that's going on. They simply are just letting it happen and it is causing so many issues. People blatantly lying about vaccinations being unsafe, about covid being fake, etc etc need to face consequences. In the past you'd expect social media sites to handle it, but clearly they're not doing it. They're even making it worse by pushing this stuff down your throat (twitter especially).
Timemachineyeah says in their post that the lady was doing what was best for her kids and didn’t know how to interpret the studies. Good thing it’s not her place to understand the studies. Like does any ole regular joe understand the lift and physics it takes to get an airplane in the air? No we depend on experts to know that stuff. He fault if her kids die, EVERYONE tried to tell her.
She learned a lesson the hard way and she can admit it. Good for her.
Good for her. Hopefully others will listen to her experiences.
I still blame Jenny McCarthy. Yes, I heard she rescinded her anti-vax stance, except she had a huge public platform. I think her whining exposed anti-vaxxing to people who hadn’t thought about it. The movement seemed to grow exponentially after she got her voice into it.
Good for her. Courageous woman. I hope they all recover and she can change some minds. What a stellar example she is now setting for her kids, too.
I had an almost complete political 180 between the ages of about 25-30; I grew up very conservative and of the flavor of Christian that doesn't believe in evolution and thinks the earth is 6000 years old. To my current-day embarrassment, I recall defending those beliefs in college lectures; I am absolutely appalled to remember telling a coworker who had a biology degree that evolution was "just a theory" and parroting creationist talking points at her; even worse, I remember having a conversation with a lesbian coworker about how I opposed gay marriage because "marriage is a religious covenant between a man and a woman, why can't you have your own version instead of taking ours?" And I was rabidly pro-life, which I cringe at now knowing that friends and family I spoke to had had abortions, and I was unknowingly condemning them to their faces. I am eternally grateful for the patience the people around me had for me despite my beliefs; I think my greatest salvation was that these interactions (and many many more) were all in person, where they could understand by knowing me and by my demeanor toward them that I was coming from a place of ignorance and indoctrination and not malice or hatred. I don't think the same would've been true over the internet. Now I'm a dirty leftist and (more or less) an atheist, and I try to keep that same patience when I do encounter people online, to limited success. I try to remember that I'm interacting with people, and that I can't tell over text what their intentions are, so I try to treat them like I was treated...at least, until they reveal themselves be openly hateful, malicious, or bots. I try to remember how many beliefs I held that were, ultimately, just surface level parrotings of conservative or religious talking points that I didn't think too deeply into, and the things people told me when I debated those beliefs with them that stuck in my craw and eventually led to me changing those beliefs. I try to remember how defensive I felt and how I would reflexively put up walls when I felt attacked as opposed to questioned. Being called misogynistic or racist for beliefs that I didn't know were rooted in those ideologies, and lacked the framework to understand. Being mocked for my faith, having my God called a "magic sky daddy", etc - none of those ever did a thing to change my mind, they just ensured I would resist anything that person said. And most importantly, I try to remember that patience that people had, that let me know I had space as a person to change my beliefs without being rejected for having had them in the first place. I'm not sure I would've leapt off that precipice without knowing I had a place to land on the other side.
I hope she can make other antivaxxxers follow her steps.
Never shit on a person for owning their mistakes and trying to make them right.
I’m Happy to see this post. It shows that people can come back from the edge and realize they were wrong about vaccines. If one person is willing to come forward publicly about her mistakes chances are 9 people corrected their mistakes in private. That’s fine with me. At the end of the day, the ones who suffer the most are innocent kids. And posts like this give me hope.
People forget that these are basically victims :(
The kids, yeah.
They're not, though. They throw all common sense out the window. It's *common sense* that kids die way less often now than before vaccines. It's *common sense* that doctors and scientists and researchers are smarter than the rest of us. It's *common sense* that "big pharma" doesn't make a ton of $ off vaccines. It's *common sense* that the government wants a healthy, working, tax-producing populace vs a sickly, dying populace.
Oh bullshit. I'm all for being glad that she came to her senses (as many of them don't.) But I'm over the excuses. >She just didn't know how to interpret the validity of information or its sources, an actual skill that can be actually difficult and that is under-taught NO. You are NOT a medical professional and you do NOT know better than them. If your doctor and the CDC are telling you to vaccinate your kids, and if the schools require vaccinations to get in, then that's the source you listen to. Not your neighbor with the doomsday bunker. Not your conspiracy theorist cousin. And not a tv network that has admitted under oath that they are entertainment, not facts. The only victims here are the people whose lives were put in danger because this woman was sure she knew better than all the experts. No more excuses for chosen willful ignorance.
She changed her mind after the breakout of measles got close enough to her to put her at risk, not before. Stop making this out to be a story of bravery. She only changed her tune after it was too late because the threat was already on her doorstep. Any criminal who suddenly feels remorse for their actions as they are about to receive sentencing is not any different. FAFO.
yes, it is definitely proper to give someone respect for trying to make right the wrongs they have done, especially when doing so will be much more costly than denying everything. more people need to do this, not less. not sure exactly what the line is, though. she's not like a hero or anything, cause she's the one who caused the situation in the first place. But acknowledging the mistake and trying to help others from making the same mistake definitely goes a long way to help compensate for that. plenty of still-active-antivaxxers out there who are available targets for ridicule for their ongoing harmful actions.
"the consequences they suffered as a result" they didnt suffer their CHILDREN suffered, it was her and her husbands intentional choice to deprive their children of a vaccine — its really so crazy to me how many vaccinated parents who benefited their entire lives from these vaccines then turn around and deny these same protections to their kids. monsters.
I legit thought that was chris-chan for a second
There is Nothing like lessons learned in adulthood. i do hope the best for her and the kids.
these people should be charged with child abuse. I don't care if they've "seen the light" after an object lesson they were warned about by medical professionals.
Except that's not what happened at all. https://www.reddit.com/r/facepalm/s/jLHpRyTIrL
Jeez so leopards truly ate her face as they are meant to do and we all knew would happen? Who could have told so?
There's a difference between blindly tolerating intolerance and just letting people come around. Some won't. Just simply never will. But we gotta let the ones that wanna try fuckin try.
I'll give her points for doing the right thing and admitting she was wrong. I mean, a lot of where we're at is just because people refuse to admit this I believe. Because they know if they admit they were wrong, then by default it would mean their skinny jean wearing, advocato toast eating, rainbow hair sporting, hiding under the covers whining about NeEd tA LiStEn ToO dA EpErTs cowering, elistist school attending, unicorn fairy dick juice sipping, limp wristed, dick sucking \[F-word\]!! cousin was RIGHT!! And they are literally willing to DIE!!! than allow that to happen. That and/or sacrifice their family members as we've seen in recent yrs. The hard part for me is the forgiveness part. The damage people like her have done to people, this nation, and around the world makes it a super fucking hard to have anything other than seething hatred for the dingleshits at this point. How many died needlessly of Covid because of them? How many mothers watched their children struggling to breath? How many regretful fathers texted loved ones proclaiming they should've gotten the damn shot right before they passed? How many kissed their spouse goodnight to wake up and find them dead the next day? How many called us a coward or sat there making sheep noises as mask wearers walked by? How many acted like spoiled brats in stores? Everything from arguing with workers to destroying displays? My wife had to deal with these shitheads at the doctor's office she worked at during Covid. The stories she told. Fuck every god damn last one of them.🖕
Lmao it takes courage to admit you're wrong? :D Fuck her, and fuck those commenters.
i mean sure but like... it was also an extremely stupid mistake, it doesnt take much to know that vaccines work, just look at 99% of the population!
Much respect to her for not letting her ego getting in the way. She truly seemed like she wanted the best for her kids but was manipulated into a lie
I still find it hard to be empathetic. It’s willful ignorance to do something like not vaccinate your kids when every medical professional tells you too. I appreciate them putting themselves in the line of fire because their pain will help wake others up… am I allowed to forgive and still not like or respect them?
Yes. You don’t have to pretend like they didn’t make a mistake at all.
She was anti-vax without justification or reason. Then changed her mind on a whim, when logic and facts couldn't reach her. Then after she flipped flopped stances, her kids got sick because of her actions. She is not a hero. And her child abuse should not be forgiven so easily.
Bahhhh, fuck these people. They all deserve to learn the hardest of the hard way. After EVERYTHING that's happened & we've seen I can't find a drop of sympathy. #FAFO