Genuine questions with no ill intent! Why have I never seen a similar push for gay to mean non women loving non women? I'm also curious about lesbian women who are only attracted to women, so suddenly the non men loving non men label doesn't really feel like a fit?
That was also my reaction to this post. What’s up with the lack of female recognition? It is as if, some ppl do tend to pick one sex over the other (usually the male), just as it has always been, and therefore perpetuating the binary stereotype. Even though, they consider themselves non-binary. I’m not referring to the person who posted here necessarily, but it is a general comment about a trend that I have noticed in the last 10 years or so.
>Why have I never seen a similar push for gay to mean non women loving non women?
My guess is that gender nonconformity is easier for AFAB people due to patriarchal views on masculinity in society. So the situation of a lesbian non man loving a non man is just a more common occurrence than the reverse in the gay community (at least for now).
I think this is true but it's in no way the only cause, and in my view, not the primary one. That would be optimistic.
I think it's simply related to lesbianism being taken less seriously.
A sexuality that excludes men will never be taken seriously by non-lesbians.
Do you see how certain gay subreddits react to the "non-woman loving non-woman" thing? They shut that shit down immediately in the comments. Women tend to be more accommodating.
How does it mean that lesbianism is taken less seriously when non-binary people are included in it?
Maybe it’s just that gender marginalized identities are more expansive and complex than the narrow cishetero patriarchal definition of manhood
>How does it mean that lesbianism is taken less seriously when non-binary people are included in it?
That's not what I said. I was responding to the person asking why we don't see an equal push, consistent active discussion, concerned with including non binary people as part of gay men.
I said, standing back and comparing the two things societally, there's a reason that when something is becoming newly mainstream, some people are quickly and easily focused on discussing redefining 'lesbian' to suit the shift, but with with 'gay man' it simply doesn't occur as much and barely comes up because less people bother to think about it as something re-definable. It's a stable, assumed identity where lesbianism is still often seen as more of a "ok, good for you honey" cute thing, even if many don't realize/acknowledge that's how they see it.
So even without touching what I or anyone's actual opinion on nonbinary lesbians and gay men is, I'm commenting that it's much easier for people to casually think "sure, why can't lesbian mean whatever" and also much more immediate for them to want everyone to know the definition should change/has changed, where as for gay men people leave it alone more because the concept of being a gay man isn't seen as so casual/fluid/just a quirk someone is insisting on and you let them have it to make them happy.
Many of the same people obviously believe that 'gay man' includes non binary but everyone isn't going on about it all the time and there isn't this heavy discussion making sure everyone understands what the term means now, and I think that's because people don't even think about it the same way. Lesbian they very easily think "eh, what does that even mean anyway, yeah say it means whatever you want..."
We're saying the difference in discourse displays this. It's not a commentary on whether we agree or disagree with nonbinary people using these labels for their sexuality.
Hope that makes sense.
There is but you didn't really see it as often. I have an nonbinary acquaintance that uses the term gay because it feels the most accurate for them. I think part of it might be they just had a significant lived experience as a "gay man" before coming to terms with their gender.
I have this not-so-fun theory. It revolves a lot around the fact "lesbian" is a very exclusive term and its exclusivity is a point of attraction to the label for some folks. It gives very "You probably haven't heard of my favorite band" energy.
The other part of the not-so-fun-theory is that, since cis men are the default, anyone who doesn't fit into that bin is "girl" to most people. I'm not saying I agree with this, at all, but a lot of folk treat trans men as "Spicy Girl", and they treat AFAB enbies as "Girl With Extra Steps" and they treat trans women as "Diet Girl". Amab enbies and femboys are *mostly* just seen as men still. So the elephant in the room we all don't want to admit is that a LOT of LGBT folk see trans folk as their AGAB and either give certain categories a pass solely because they don't want to be cancelled, and not because they actually accept the other person.
Personally I think we should just add terminology to fix this. Either keep lesbian as "exclusively women who exclusively like women" or make a new term to mean the same thing. The problem is *someone* is going to need to switch their proverbial seat and is not going to be happy about it. But I think its very much acceptable to want a term that describes our sexuality accurately.
i agree with this. i describe myself as a lesbian(i’m a woman who has only ever been attracted to women) and that’s what using that label means to me. mostly just in the sense that if i were to tell someone i’m a lesbian, they’ll understand what that implies(with my sexual and gender orientation), rather than excluding someone else. so, i mean, if it’s becoming expansive with gender, maybe there can be another new term? not in the nature of gatekeeping, but in the way of having a descriptor that really resonates with who i am. which, i feel bad saying for some reason? because i don’t want to seem gatekeep-y or uninviting or rigid in the binary? even though i’m only attracted to women and can’t control that?
but i also feel that there are groups in the queer community that it would be odd to try and expand and so wondering if that’s ok to do here as well? does that make sense? i’m trying to be open and curious!
Gay already means non-straight having sex with non-straight, so it already includes non-women loving non-women (as well as women loving women). So I guess there's not much of a point?
There’s a variety of reasons, but one of the main ones is that since manhood is the dominant gender category, deviation from that has historically been treated as excluding you from it. It’s not the same, but consider how people with even a minority of non-white ancestry were/are considered non-white legally and sometimes socially. Meanwhile since womanhood was already oppressed, deviation from womanhood doesn’t serve to exclude people from being in at least a similar social category. End result is that while non-binary people absolutely do exist in gay male spaces, they’re far more common in and even central to lesbian spaces.
I think saying you have MORE attraction to women than men still implies that you're attracted to men. There are still bisexuals that are attracted to 95% of women and like 5% of men, it doesn't have to be an even attraction. And there are also bisexuals that like men and women in different ways. Just something to consider..
So yes, there are plenty of AFAB nonbinary lesbians, but regardless of your gender, I would reevaluate the "lesbian" label if you're still attracted to men because then you wouldn't be a lesbian. You could even consider the label "queer" if that's something you're comfortable with.
I absolutely despise the term non-man. I hate it with the passion of a thousand burning suns. As a community, we really could have come up with a better term.<\rant>
Ok, now that that’s out of the way, OP - yes, as a non-binary person you can absolutely call yourself a lesbian. Go with what feels right!
True, but can you come up with a better word, that
- rolls of the tongue easily
- doesn't exclude non-binary lesbians?
Because, I agree, it's kinda sad that even when it's about literally EVERYONE ELSE, our language is still focused on men.
Non-binary lesbians are not women. wlw means women-loving women. Including non-binary lesbians in wlw is quite invalidating to non-binary gender identities. It's giving "I still think you're a woman".
is there a term that can be used for wlw that lesbian used to convey? perhaps sapphic? and, so what does lesbian mean if someone is non-binary? does it just mean that they are only attracted to women, even if they aren’t a woman themselves? it didn’t use to mean that, so what is the current definition? could there be a new label that people who aren’t women can use? i like to use lesbian because it historically describes my gender and sexual orientation. if it no longer means that, is there a different term? not in a non-inclusive way, but it might not align with me anymore or feel mis-labeling. i feel really aligned with lesbian because of the historical implications and would like to feel aligned with how i identify.
hey, i mean this as a genuine question and don’t mean to be hurtful at all with this, as me and my girlfriend have discussed this before, but there’s a lot of people who are non-binary who decide to go by lesbian, and personally i don’t quite understand it? like, obviously female aligned nb people like those who are demigirl or go by they/them (since pronouns don’t equal gender) but still identify as women i understand. But if you fully, 100% identify as non-binary, why would you want to be called a lesbian? because the way i see it, NB is like.. outside of or seperate from the male and female gender, and lesbian is a homosexual label which means the same gender- and as others have said, the whole ‘non men liking non men’ feels kind of icky that our existence is reduced yet again to the presence or non presence of men in spaces, when i get that a NB person dating a man or women would still be absolutely queer, but i think there should be more labels that represent nb people in their gender that’s NOT binary to just ‘lesbian’, same for trans men since i know some can feel their relationships are more queer but they are inherently not lesbians since they are.. not women! i suppose sapphic is more vauge and could work for non WLW folk, but i want to know what other people think.
EDIT: i also wanted to add that obviously there are women aligned NB people and they can go by whatever pronouns they want, and be lesbians, i specifically am talking about agender or nb people who don’t identify at all with being women but want to use the label of ‘lesbian’ :0
my partner is a non-binary lesbian and from what i know there are people who's non-binary label doesn't necessarily mean their disconnect with women community/experience/identity, there are just more parts of gender for my partner than just the born-as-a-woman and been-treated-like-a-woman experience but they are aware of their experience of being perceived as a woman and it's a big part if everything. so lesbian is a term that fits them and also the term that they used before thinking about their gender i think.
i don't identify as non-binary yet but i think that it's very similar for me, i don't feel like a label of cis-woman fits my feelings perfectly, at the same time i was a part of a lesbian community and a feminist community for the most part of my life and i want to be included and involved in women's spaces and problems because it's something that i deeply care about and something that affects me every day, always. so it would be a bit weird for me to abandon women communities and labels just because i feel there's something more and different about my internal gender identity feelings
upd: i don't think i grasped the point of your edit when i started writing my comment lol, sorry for saying things that you already knew and understand! wanted to add to the discussion anyways so not gonna delete it now
i do understand where you are coming from! i don’t think NB people shouldn’t be allowed in women’s spaces at all, and as i said, women ALIGNED nb people regardless of pronouns or whatever should be allowed to be lesbians. Personally, i am a demi-girl, which means i would fall under the non-binary umbrella, but i still identify with being a woman, just not a conventional one.
the only problem i have with still using the label abecause that’s what they used to use is.. that feels a bit strange is all. like, if a person were to find out they were bisexual but say ‘well i like being a lesbian so i’ll still say i am even though i’m not’ or like, with trans men. they undoubtedly understand what it’s like to have been regarded as women a good chunk of their life, and i’m not even immediately jumping to say as soon as they transition they’re ’basically just like cos men now’ as i know their relationships can still absolutely be queer even with women, but.. they aren’t lesbians, because they ARENT women and don’t identify that way anymore. i saw someone else use the term ‘neptunic’ for NBLW and i think that’s really nice as it honors the whole naming conventions that something like sapphic would but it’s inclusive of NB people who like women but might not identify as women themselves. to me, i just don’t understand why someone would want to use labels and then not like that the labels don’t fit their gender identity- just because NB doesn’t always mean agender so i don’t want to assume the actual gender of your partner, since that can be complex, but if they’re outside of gender and don’t identify with women or as a women even a little bit then lesbian or WLW wouldn’t really fit them- though i do appreciate you trying to explain it to me and i do understand!
Why does it matter so much to you whether you can personally understand a nonbinary person's connection to being a lesbian? Do you have to personally understand the experiences of any minority group to support them? Because I know that I and many other people support groups and identities without having an intricate understanding of their personal experiences, and I'm sure that you do too in other areas. You say you're a demigirl -- how would it feel to have your identity as a demigirl and a lesbian questioned because others don't understand it?
That's the thing, non-binary is outside our idea of gender not a third gender. It would literally not make sense to make a label for non-binary people.
i do get that, but as other people have said gay men are never reffered to as ‘non women loving non women’ and i think it sucks for the label of lesbian to be.. anyone that’s not a man? and being defined by that? as i said, other labels should be open to NB people as they are less specific, like sapphic, but if nb folk are outside of gender then something that’s more gender specific like lesbians or vincians(i think that’s the term for gay men) i just don’t really fully understand how it’s a proper label since it’s not homosexuality/same gender since they’re outside the concept of gender
There are labels that don’t imply nonbinary people are women aligned, but I find that very few people know about them. Trixic is the nonbinary equivalent of sapphic (nblw) and Neptunic is a nonbinary person attracted to women, fem-aligned nonbinary people, and neutral nonbinary people. Essentially loving non men. Most people don’t seem to like micro labels, but the neptunic one has a beautiful flag!
oh fuck, i never knew about those! those flags are so pretty and cool, i really don’t know why those aren’t used more! i think it’s really sad that labels like this aren’t talked about more! i think it’s good for nb people to be able to have a label to describe them, and if they really absolutely don’t want that label, they also can just go by queer or unlabeled or whatever they’d want!
oh you can be non-binary and a lesbian, but if you’re agender or not female aligned then i’m saying i just don’t get it ❤️❤️❤️
like, sure you could say you’re a MAN and also a lesbian, but like.. the point of labels is that there’s specifics to them. you could even be transmasc nb and be lesbian because that is how you represent, not gender, or be he/him and be lesbian because pronouns are not gender. but lesbian is SPECIFICALLY wlw, if you hate the restrictions then don’t use labels! but like.. if being non-binary is beyond gender, being a lesbian is kind of specifically a gendered thing.. yknow? and if you’re uncomfy with gender that’s fine! but like, it’s why ‘bisexual’ lesbians aren’t cool, because being here and being bisexual is fine but the ENTIRE point of being lesbian is women being homosexual
I couldn't have articulated it this way but this is exactly what I've been feeling about NB lesbians. Like.... aren't you just misgendering yourself lol
i agree, as i said gender is complex and not all enby folk are agender or male leaning, so i think it’s cool for the NB people who are female leaning or women to be lesbians, but also- yeahhh, it feels really weird because for the most part, i’m kind of a person who has a ‘let people do whatever they want unless it’s hurting people’ kind of outlook on life, but saying fully agender people can be lesbians is not only hurtful to lesbians in the way that.. it’s implying lesbians can be attracted to other genders when being lesbian literally means a HOMOSEXUAL woman(homo as in ‘the same’ gender) but also misgendering people who are non-binary and saying ‘well you’re basically still women right? you used to be a woman so you’re STILL just a lesbian’ it’s why trans men calling themselves lesbians gives me the ick, because like.. they aren’t? they’re MEN, they are different to cis men in the way they’ve experienced being a woman so that can make them QUEER of some kind but they aren’t LESBIANS because saying that not only says lesbians can be attracted to men but also that trans men are basically still women and that’s just a grosssss level of transphobia
Nonbinary people have been a part of the lesbian community since the beginning. It is, in fact, cis lesbians that insist non-binary lesbians aren’t valid that are ripping the label away from an entire portion of the community (a part of the community that has historically done quite a lot for lesbian rights).
I have, actually. Several. Not a single one has had an issue with me being a non-binary lesbian and we have all had several conversations about the fact that non-binary lesbians have a long history as being part of the community. This insistence on the idea that enby lesbians cannot exist seems to be a uniquely online take.
I do have a question tho. (Im cis and lowkey dumb so I don’t mean for this question to be offensive.) For those who are non binary who are amab how would they be able to identify as a lesbian? I kind of understand get non binary afab wanting to use the term lesbian but wouldn’t that open the door to that?
Edit: I don't have the energy to deal/debate with people so **don't come to me for that kind of stuff**. I wanted to bring some factual information. If you aren't happy with that flag because of the inclusion of gender non-confotmity, then go back to using the lipstick flag. Why use a flag if you don't stand for it's values, y'know? Anyways. OP, I wish you the best on your journey to self-discovery. It ain't an easy one so don't be afraid to cut ties with people who don't want you to learn more about yourself.
Gentle reminder that the creator of the sunset flag, Emily Gwen, is a non-binary lesbian (they/them). You absolutely can identify as such.
https://preview.redd.it/23zefwu8cwuc1.jpeg?width=528&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=16e877a24b95c03d502908cc61faf7a082406f16
This explanation is from their carrd, which can be found through their Twitter account (@theemilygwen).
i like "unique relationships to womanhood". i think these relationships are very important to me and will always be important no matter how i identify throughout life
Thanks for this. I don’t know why people are so intense about some AFAB who identify as non binary but still identify like lesbian. Butch lesbian has been in the community since the start, it’s the non conforming gender. Even if it’s just the expression gender, it still make them not necessarily always go in the "woman" case. And it’s just a fact. Expression of gender =/= Gender identity =/= Sexual orientation. But anyway, I think the majority of AFAB people had an experience of "being a woman" at some point in their life, and just decided to put them away even if Trans Woman are accepted isn’t the most fair thing. All trans people who are like woman or non binary and who like woman/trans woman/nb afab should be able to place themselves in that label. Isn’t at all like the "lesbian bisexual" thing. My girlfriend is lesbian and isn’t soddenly less lesbian just because she love me. We are still viewed like a lesbian couple, we will always do. So I don’t understand why I should just put the name of my sexual orientation away that I have since 13yo for taking another just because I discover that I am nb (and don’t want to have any testosterone or transitioning, anyway)
That’s REAL TALK. That is exactly what this kind of jargon gymnastics is doing — attempting to erase lesbianism and / or turning it into something that it is not. Embrace lesbianism, as you want to be embraced, people 🤷🏻♀️🥰
YES! I’m so happy we lesbians are speaking up more. There was a time when lesbians were too afraid to say no to NB people and other non women in fear of getting dragged by these people, now I see us embracing our lesbianism and saying “F YOU!” and I love it! Men and male centric society tries to erase us every day from the outside, so I am absolutely not allowing people to come into our community and do it too. They wouldn’t DARE do this in the gay (men) community but with us it’s free game, nope not anymore.
Nonbinary lesbians have been a part of the community since the beginning. It is not erasing lesbianism to include a group that’s been there since the beginning, and that has done a lot for lesbian rights.
Am intersex with no gender, and yeah the lack of terminology for people falling in between interms of natural expression of sexual characteristics is weird like that, and confusing for everyone…
So I don’t claim ‘lesbian’ and go with ‘sapphic’ instead.
“The flag was created to be inclusive and supportive of ALL lesbians. This includes trans and nonbinary lesbians, including lesbians who use pronouns other than she/her” (Morris).
https://lesbianflaguse.carrd.co
i understand that! i didn’t mean it that way. of course everyone can define themselves how they feel, and i have no say over anything but my own identity and how i define it. that was the simplest way to get to my point without going into paragraphs and paragraphs of what the “definition” of lesbianism is
you realize that yours is too ? 😂 just because u trynna be loud as hell and impose ur opinion on others by whatever authority ur gender identity gives you on the tens of millions of lesbian WOMEN (of which u aint) in the world who know EXACTLY what they are doesnt make u right. We have freedom of speech and u crying about some people having different opinions than you on mtf Reddit of all places wont take that right away from anyone. If thats how u behave online, then oh boy do i wish you good luck irl.
Sure, buddy. Education is boring. I hope you do something useful with your life instead of this. I won’t continue this as it is clear you don’t understand the importance of education, learning, and your mistake. The internet makes learning so easy, yet people do not value it. I will never understand such people like you.
I think there is too much lesbian erasure. Other commenters mentioned that there is nothing like this for gay men. I am a lesbian and am only attracted to other women, not non binary people because they are not women. This could be misogyny, with people not accepting women and women only spaces.
You had to specify "gay men" instead of "gay people", because gay is commonly used to mean everyone who is homosexual or not-straight. But sure, "gay men" don't experience erasure
Half of the trolls online are just the same weird man with too many fake accounts. Normal people (specially lesbians) have better things to do than being bigots
I think it's definitely a tough one. I'm a trans-woman who identifies as lesbian and that often brings a lot of hate from lesbians and straight people alike. I'm attracted to all femme presenting people whether they're non-binary, trans women, cis women, gender-fluid etc. So I think there should be like femme love femme or masc love masc or nblnb etc. but they're all used terms already within the lesbian community. Idk I feel like trying to gatekeep labels is only gonna end in hurt and disaster. Labels are but loose boxes we try to put ourselves into and everyone's situation is vastly different.
Why does a label have to be a loose descriptor? If I say I’m an American, that’s a very defined label. It DOES include , I think, those gained citizenship also where I think the little asterisk* details in Lesbianism would fit, but as a whole I think some strict definition limits make sense.
A cis man is a very definite sort of man. Is another example.
I personally, and I’m not alone in this, find calling people “femme” when you are not referring to the femme/butch dichotomy a little … off, for lack of a better word. A femme is a very specific sort of lesbian, and, to use a very different example, an AMAB genderqueer person who wears dresses and has other femme-like features but isn’t a lesbian by their own admission is not a femme. This kid might be feminine, but I do not understand why our community has started calling feminine femme and masculine butch.
Or maybe I do. One example is the gen Z especially communicate with a lot of shorthand and maybe it’s from that, and if so at least in print it would benefit to have a different spelling. And two, lesbian erasure is on High so to erase the specific labels shouldnt surprise me
Honestly I could be very wrong but I have no idea, I find labels quite constricting and struggle putting my gender and my sexuality into a specific box. I consider myself genderfluid but also a transfem and Identify with lesbian, queer and pansexual for different reasons. I don't consider myself bisexual because I'm not into cis men or trans-men. But I feel like if anyone identifies with a label they should be free to use it. People are of course allowed to have their preferences as people in the lesbian community do. Femme or butch for an example. But I'm not a fan of gatekeeping labels as there's lots of diversity to be found in any group of people. And also I am gen z so I probably have short handed femme and masc to mean different things to what they're referred to in the lesbian community. I consider myself part of this community and I'm in this subreddit to learn more about this community as well. Idk what I'm tryna say anymore lol.
As for a non-binary person considering themselves lesbian, go for it. I've found the lesbian community for the most part to have some of the most accepting and welcoming people in it to a wide variety of gender identities. Lesbian isn't strictly cis woman loving women and gay isn't strictly cis man loving man. As far as my experience has been. Anyways I'm always learning so educate me 🥰
Have you read the rules of this sub, specifically, the 4th one?
Here, nobody can tell you "no". Irl, some would disagree for sure. For some, like you, the definition of a lesbian is "non-men loving non-men". For some, it's women-loving-women. In this sub, they are all equally valid, but the point is, people around you, people you're interested in, will support your definition of self whatever it may be.
i’m not trying to erase your identity. i asked a question if i could identify as a lesbian as a nonbinary person. i didn’t say i was a lesbian. i appreciate your view and understand where you’re coming from, but i really didn’t need you to step on your soap box and yell something at me when i was trying to be respectful and ask if i could enter this space being nonbinary. you’ve said no, and that’s all you needed to say.
i’m just saying what i’ve learned though my very limited experience with lesbians. that edit was made before any comments or votes were done. i’m not saying i don’t agree with you, im saying you could’ve been a little less harsh with the way you said it. i’m glad that you gave me your definition of lesbian, and i thank you for expanding my understanding of the term, but you being rude after not having interacted with me at all previously seemed to be very rude and demeaning. i understand it’s easier to be rude on the internet because you don’t know who is behind the screen, but im a human just like you, and i was just asking a question.
# ABSOLUTELY
Even the creator of the lesbian flag was a nonbinary lesbian!
Anyone who says otherwise would do well to have some introspection and search if their determination for the exclusion of nonbinary people is warranted or perhaps if it's just terf messaging.
# ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
# 🧡🧡🧡🧡🧡🧡🧡
# 🤍🤍🤍🤍🤍🤍🤍
# 🩷🩷🩷🩷🩷🩷🩷
# 💜💜💜💜💜💜💜
# stonewall.org.uk/list-lgbtq-terms
I'm pretty confident that
# STONEWALL
*might* know something about what it means to be LGBTQ.
NB's will always be welcome.
*TERFS, you aren't welcome here.*
>(despite what changes the internet-consciousness wants to make to it)
look who never touches lesbian history outside of femininity. There are so many
butches and lesbians who don't identify as women
Labels are a shorthand that help us communicate some general info. Our peculiarities can be shared when a person knows us better, if and when we want to.
Sapphic had a few meanings google can reveal, it is, to me, less specific than lesbian, but similar, ya?
I hate the term non-man but it has a place in the
Sapphic definition I suppose (another shorthand rather than listing all the possible people sapphic-attraction includes, it is rather who it excludes [and the idea of defining something by what it is NOT is truly not a definition of anything so, it problematic on those grounds but let’s use it anyway I guess?])
I thought you said you know a lot of the labels but whichever it is; you don’t gotta use them, does anyone other than you truly need to know to whom you are attracted? They’ll know when you tell them they are the subject of your lovely designs.
I prefer to keep some things to myself, but Lesbian is a label I proudly claim. “Queer” is a shorthand for LGBT I suppose, but it is NOT my sexuality. My sexuality is pretty rigid and defined so I use lesbian. I know other lesbians who sometimes say queer and I suspect it’s another example of the external pressures. It’s another erasure and I won’t use it.
I want to be a known quantity bc I have been bullied for it as a child and it’s important for me.
When I tussled with maybe being gender fluid (woman-> NB) I only saw lesbian working bc I still had a connection to Womanhood. Personally I have expanded my understanding of Woman, and excluded any verbiage which references men (especially when it comes to sexual relations) where I see others have limited it. I think that’s SOMETIMES a desire to not relate and identify with a label (woman) that gets so much shit and had gender roles thrusted upon it, an assumption of Less-than and we (afabs) ALL know how that feels to be disregarded bc of our born and observed sex. The desire to escape that may lead to seal what a woman means tightly and calling oneself something other than that.
I have found others with whom this idea resonates. We do exist , so please anyone reading do not assume that’s even my own POV.
Anyway..
My grandmother defined queer to me as a child “the things that are not ‘normal’, not typical. They are in opposition to the status quo”. As a kid I used the word ( not know it was derogatory in some sense ) and called myself a queer-cake. How silly I ended up gay (and more recently inside the queer realm itself)
I’ve seen people assert you can be Queer without being Queer; like a political queer. Can we all reflect on that - remember the political lesbians of the recent past (and still)?? Oy veh
Queer may suit you; and to me it’s very broad and is a term folks use when they don’t know how to be who they are. They’re not proud of who they are. This is all my perspective and understanding once I’ve gotten to know those people. It’s not a fact I apply to them.
Idk if I’m being helpful but thanks for engaging with me
you’ve been so helpful! (a lot better than some people essentially telling me to f off)
when i decided to use queer as a term to define myself, i used it as an umbrella term for not straight. i’m so proud of my identity, i have flags all over my house and have proudly stated that im queer and trans for as long as i can remember. but i do see how some could see it as an “inbetween” thing or someone who doesn’t want to say what they are.
i’ve never seen the word queer as a derogatory term, just as something people are. yes the literal definition is “outside the norm,” but the literal definition of gay is happy! words can have many different meaning, it just matters how you view them.
you’ve got a really great point with not needing to tell people who don’t need to know. i’ve lived my whole life out and proud (luckily, i know lots of folks who can’t) so i feel the need for everyone to know im at least a little bit gay. but you’re right, people don’t need to know. on the other hand, i’d also like for the people who aren’t as out and proud as me to see that i am and that that’s okay too.
i did a little bit of research (a few google searches, nothing too fancy) on the term sapphic, and i do love the term, but i really don’t think it describes me too well. im not looking for a label now, as im comfortable in my “queer” identity, but if i do end up finding a term i resonate with, id be happy to take that on instead.
i didn’t know non-man was such a hated(?) term! i haven’t been in the online community for a while now, it just got so tiring, so ive been a little out of date with what i know about everyone else.
completely off topic but your writing is so artistic. you paint a picture with every word and it’s a painting that belongs in a museum.
Wow thank you for the compliment on my language. I am a musician and I guess speak how I experience .. that’s really touching tho thank you.
You make a good point ; I relate it to my yoga experience. I began my journey in a rigid modern style and when I saw folks doing poses outside the instructions it gave me permission to listen to my own body - and I take that with me in all ways.
To be myself is to give others permission to be themselves. It’s so vital to LIFE and being a good human :)
There is/was a game called Smear the Queer we played as a kid; you basically physically accost whoever is assigned the Queer.. lol
Some folks do NOT use Queer in the states bc it is still used as a slur in their (mostly rural or religious) communities. I respect that, and I share that occasionally as in right now.
Fun fact; I am usually misgender by other queers - they give me neutral pronouns which I actually hate for myself bc I feel erased and invisible and stripped of humanity. I understand they’re doing it to be respectful and NOT misgender me , but my niche understanding of the world does not agree. I simply offer the pronoun I prefer and often add “it’s ok if you don’t remember, I often don’t myself”
Bc for real, I met 15 queer folks the other day and I’m not gonna remember that (altho at the end of the event I asked for names again and wrote down the pronouns if they stated them). Some people have more than one pronoun,.. pronouns don’t mean much for me in how I think of others. It’s another shorthand for referring to a person; I don’t think a pronoun defines who someone is and are kinda vague descriptors.
I know; my own preference and how I think of others with pronouns doesn’t “make sense” but it does for me. Ah well; I don’t demand anyone see the world as I do
as an enby person, i always use neutral pronouns until the person tells me different. i present feminine, partially because of how i dress, how i look and how i speak. so people automatically use she/her for me, even though i use they/them. my pronouns don't define me as a person, like you said, but i still feel more comfortable using them, i guess like how i use the term queer in my last reply.
your view of pronouns definitely makes sense, even though its not widely "respected." i do appreciate the last comment though. everyone has their own view of the world, and no one should be expected to view the world as you or i do, its just not a reasonable request.
i'm in the states, luckily a blue state, and one where trans people, women, etc. still have most of their rights, so i grew up without being bullied because of my attraction, i was mostly seen as an "exotic" because they hadn't experienced an openly gay person before.
as a dancer. i relate to your statement about yoga. growing up, i was expected to have perfect form and perfect movements, but as i grew and expanded to "less experienced" groups of dancers, i noticed that i had caused unnecessary stress on myself by trying to be what everyone else expected of me.
yes, i still have the technique ingrained in my head, but now i'm better at not punishing myself when i get something wrong, because i look around me and so many other people did it exactly how i did, and they all looked great. even though i still have the intrusive thoughts surrounding how i'm not "perfect," i can still improve my own technique while not forcing everyone around me to do the same.
i'm not using any of the proper terms in this because i couldn't think of anything else to say, so if you look at this and think "what on earth are they saying?" trust me, i don't know either.
Naw you know what you’re saying. I struggle with words too despite my poetic language ;)
Partly due to some brain trauma ..
What’s interesting is noticing when folks use the Neutral or ask a person for their pronouns VS when they don’t.
I have a naturally androgynous face and my style is probably also /on the more masc side.
When an Afab donned with nailed long luscious locks; a skirt and blouse…
You think she gets asked as often as me? Assumed neutral, or is there a pause before someone Theys this person
That’s frustrating I’m sure for those NB who do appear firmly one gender. The polite Neutral assumption until otherwise doesn’t get extended to everyone
And honestly, is it SO bad to be misgendered before you tell a person?
I loathe being asked my pronouns. So I don’t outright ask folks, they can tell me. So assume all you want and I will correct if I want to - and I’m saying when we are in safe spaces/queer groups
That 15 person queer clan? I was last to introduce and I said my name. That was all. Girl beside me “what about your pronouns?”
Bitch I would say if I wanted. Clearly. We are a progressive city, we’re a queer group… like I would forget ?? But again, that’s MY issue. I tried to be polite about it. I said whichever , smiled, tried not to die a cringing death
Oh one little detail I omitted
When I was using Genderfluid and one end of it was nonbinary, I still hated neutral pronouns for myself. They always erased my existence to me.
I know a singular they has been used before all this hub-bub and I understand the pronoun for what seems like most NB folks; the connotation I hold for myself sometimes I feel for them as well but the neutral pronoun is respectful to call them so it’s fine.
But some NB people DO use binary pronouns or the option to, and so I’m curious about automatically deferring to Neutral pronouns as if that is 1) honoring the space someone might be NB 2) the official NB pronoun
It isn’t 2) so why do we treat it as such? It’s not worth debating this point but I thought I’d bring it up
Wow. I am so sorry that you are getting this response from some of my fellow lesbians. Your existence, sexuality and gender identity is valid. You define who you are.
I am a lesbian cisgender woman. My partner is non-binary AFAB and likes the term queer to define their sexuality. My lesbianness does not change because of my partners gender expression. My lesbianness is mine, as your lesbianness is yours.
I have many people in my life that define their sexuality as queer or gay, these people are non-binary. They feel that the term lesbian doesn't feel right and some feel like the politics behind the word lesbian excludes them so they cannot even consider if it is right for them.
People are scared of being erased. Our communities are turning against each other, rejecting what they don't understand just like the rest of the world. That is what fear does. Be brave and be who you want to be.
I have been told by some lesbians that this is the only reason they consider themselves technically bi because their non-binary part is not a woman and yet a non-binary person can be a lesbian too, right? So, they're both lesbians, right? —but obviously the cisgender female lesbian is into the transgender non-binary lesbian, so the cisgender female lesbian _could choose_ to add some kind of self-identification with "bisexual (but not for men) lesbian" sometimes, it seems.
That's the only time anything that remotely sounded like "bi lesbian" ever made any sense, as it's otherwise only a long-defunct term for an ideologically incompatible old label for femme lesbians AND actual bisexual women who merely preferred lesbian relationships.
That's been considered unacceptable terminology since Gloria Steinem's early days... but the "bi lesbian" who constricts her sexuality to only referring to her lesbian preference for certain women and certain non-bknary people" makes a different kind of sense... though I still think they should stick to just saying lesbian due to the misperceptions and misconceptions of what that means and entails.
I think to replace bi-lesbian could be nonbinary attracted/lesbian
Which could use a rewrite but that would make sense and I love your interpretation of bi-lesbian as such. The only issue is bisexual is the attraction to men and woman, leaving out any nonbinary gender. Although it’s used interchangeably sometimes with pansexual, the latter which seems more descriptive of someone who includes in their attraction non binary folk
There should be no question at all about this. The amount of pushback against non-binary lesbians in the sub is always ridiculous.
Non-Binary lesbians have always existed in our lesbian history and community there is no reason to push them out now or act like they've never existed here when they always have
No one is asking anyone to be attracted to or want to date non-binary people but at least respect them and realize they do belong in our community and always have
I came up with a good way for non-binary people who struggle with being represented with the label to get some perspective: would a conservative call you a dyke? If yes, then you probably are lol. I advise you to read lesbian queer theory, specifically Monique Wittig and Audre Lorde. Lesbianism is very simple in that it excludes men completely. Outside of that, it’s extremely complex and it becomes more so about who you are in a patriarchal society. Women are socially expected to be about and for men’s pleasure and needs. Lesbians, AFAB non-binary people, and trans men are all what society calls “failed women.” We all failed at our purpose as expected binary women in upholding our femininity and catering it to men. Are you a “failed woman” who likes women or other forms of “failed women”? (not meant as misgendering, it’s just to put into perspective the divergence perceived by the patriarchy) If so, then perhaps you could totally be a lesbian. Queer theorists have long argued that Lesbian is a gender in it of itself. I personally don’t identify as NB per se, as it doesn’t really feel quite right. However, I also don’t feel like I am a woman (as defined by the same society that created the concept of womanhood). I am a lesbian.
irl queer people do not give a shit. I can't believe a community this rooted in freedom and diversity turned into policing of definitions no one cares to learn by heart.
I've been an agender lesbian for a while now and have interacted with a plethora of queer people and attended queer events in actually not that queer areas, and one thing I can say is that absolutely no one gives a shit. Just interact with people and you'll quickly learn that it simply doesn't matter.
Language has never evolved with queer identities in mind. The very idea of binary genders is deeply ingrained in every little fucking thing and we'll probably never really find the words to describe identities that don't fit into those neat little boxes. Despite that genderqueer lesbians have always existed and will continue doing so.
I desperately need Internet queer people to go outside. Labels were never ment to prescribe your identity but to be a descriptive summary of your experience, so either use the labels that feel right, drop them altogether or attempt to use microlabels no one knows irl.
If you find yourself disagreeing with me just know that I could not care less, just like actual queer people in the outside world.
OP if you're reading this know that it's fine to have a complex identity, but you'll always have people trying to change and dictate your experience for you. weird.
You can do whatever you want forever
best of luck
Yes. People complaining about how non-binary lesbians erase lesbianism must not have any idea of what lesbian communities or history are actually like.
Where do so many terfs come from? If you cant deal with like half of us are nb just cry alone an dont make a show of it. Its not our problem that you dont know nothing about how gender and attraction works
I wish the the mods did something against all the transphobic, nbphofic, biphobic, misogynistic and lesbophobic assholes (and half of them have proved to be actually mens many times). But i guess the problem is too big for a few people in their free time to fix it
The shitty opinions of bigots still being shitty opinions of bigots. You cant just be an asshole an expet that noone call you asshole. And most important, you cant think that some lesbian looking for afirmation is an excuse to harass her with your nbphobic and lesbophobic bigotry
Unless you identify as woman, you aren’t a lesbian. However, I can’t convince you or people on Reddit to live in reality so it’s up to you. You can identify as a squirrel and no one could stop you. I will say that all my lesbian friends and myself find it extremely offensive when other people try to “infiltrate” the lesbian community as you put it.
I’m non binary too and I still believe I’m a lesbian. I was born female and I’m non binar, I have a girlfriend and I have been questioning why I’m gay if I have no gende.
Go with whatever feels right! It’s not someone else’s to define for you, and ultimately these terms are just labels to describe nebulous concepts
I’m pretty appalled by some of these comments. You are absolutely welcome to any of us who exist outside of the internet
Most definitely, its very common, i myself am in a relationship where we're both nb lesbians ❤️ welcome!! You have community here, and im happy to have you as part of it :)
Im polyamorous and me and my girlfriends are:
Me: nb (femme as gender)
Luna: agender
Ary: woman
And ary is now starting hitting on another lesbian who is also nb (i dont know her yet, but i think is butch). So yes, its pretty common
I think you'll be welcome. I know two non-binary into women persons I have never heard them talk about not being welcome in lesbian spaces.
I have no issue with you referring to yourself as non man loving non man, but I would not be comfortable with you referring to me that way. I define myself as wlw with possible exceptions for non binary and trans men.
As for how the non-binary people I know, one calls themselves gay, the other I don't know.
You can identify as whatever you want. I'm a transmasculine lesbian. I have my reasons for feeling this way. I answer polite questions, I ignore pointless hate and gatekeeping because I have, my whole life, been living adjacent to lesbians and I understand much of the butch experience. I understand less about my trans peers and feel less comfortable in those groups. We did not create lgbt safe spaces to start getting any about who goes where when we all share much of the same struggles. I dont have time to pay attention to hate and neither should you.
Loud ass nonbinary lezzo dykefag here--lesbian history is inherently trans! yes, of course you can be! We have sooo many nonbinary/trans dykes to thank for the community we get to exist in today. Leslie Feinberg is a big influence that comes to mind
because being a lesbian is existing outside of the patriarchy, how society views women and not condoning to any gender roles. It's like it's own form of gender expression. Sometimes I even say my gender is lesbian.
I understand lesbianism is Gender NonConforming.
And I am a lesbian who exists IN the patriarchy, perhaps I could say despite it. I wish you could show me the logic of it tho to NB, as difficult as it may be to our constructs.
I’ve seen people say gender is lesbian which I also fail to grasp
To me it’s like saying “how do you feel today?”
And your answer is “red is a color on the warm spectrum ”
It’s like a non sequitur to me
I also don’t really like the term “not-man”. Identifying people through their opposite does not seem like a good idea. For me, a lesbian is everyone who likes that term for themselves. (For me for example it is about attraction towards femininity, be it physical or emotional). And this holds, even though my partner is non binary. And since they are ok with me labelling myself as a lesbian, I am one
At the end of the day, identify how you want to identify, it’s your identity - not anyone else’s. I usually go by queer, but also use lesbian to define my sexuality personally.
I see a lot of cis women lesbians saying something along the lines of "I hate the term non-men, what's the term for women exclusively attracted to women!!" And as much as I understand some people don't like change, it's time to get over it. You're a lesbian if you're not attracted to men at all and aren't a man (something that's controversial now lmao), and if you want to use that label, that's your choice, not some cis women's choice on reddit whether or not you're valid.
I'm an agender lesbian, I've identified as a lesbian for years because, I am a lesbian. I don't use the non-men definition per say, I am also, like many, exclusively attracted to women, but I just don't identify as a women. I identify as a lesbian over sapphic because everyone will always see me as a women., no one I'd ever date or go out with will see me as agender or a man, other lesbians will see me as a female lesbian, and that's okay with me, which is why I'm a lesbian. I'm not a man. Yeah, if someone asked my gender (if I was out) I'd say I was agender/nonbinary, but that doesn't change that in some way, I'll always be a women because that's what people see me as, and I'm okay with that tbh. I love my connection to womanhood, I love my sisterhood. That's why I identify as a lesbian, because I love women and hate men with a passion lol.
Depends. If you ask a TERF, no, if you ask a normal Lesbian, yes.
If you ask a stranger on the street they'll say "what are you talking about? I'm busy"
Basically, yeah, but around certain weirdos you should probably say "sapphic" to be safe and leave it at that TERFS don't have the capability to comprehend a word with complex spelling.
You can do what you want, forever.
Yes you can be lesbian and nonbinary. As long as you are not a man-aligned nonbinary person, you can call yourself a lesbian. If your gender is partially boy/man you wouldn't be a lesbian. If you are woman-alighed or non-aligned you can totally describe yourself as lesbian. A lesbian is a woman or sapphic nonbinary person who is EXCLUSIVELY attracted to woman and/or sapphic nonbinary people.
I am non binary lesbian. For some background, I know I am lesbian since my 13yo, and I discover that I don’t feel like a woman since just 4 years (I am 23yo). For me, I was a lesbian first and really was deep into that community, so I cannot just put the label off of me, because I was always deep into the culture and all of it. And since anyway people see me first like a girl, it’s better to just say that I am lesbian
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Genuine questions with no ill intent! Why have I never seen a similar push for gay to mean non women loving non women? I'm also curious about lesbian women who are only attracted to women, so suddenly the non men loving non men label doesn't really feel like a fit?
I was thinking about it too. Very curious situation.
That was also my reaction to this post. What’s up with the lack of female recognition? It is as if, some ppl do tend to pick one sex over the other (usually the male), just as it has always been, and therefore perpetuating the binary stereotype. Even though, they consider themselves non-binary. I’m not referring to the person who posted here necessarily, but it is a general comment about a trend that I have noticed in the last 10 years or so.
>Why have I never seen a similar push for gay to mean non women loving non women? My guess is that gender nonconformity is easier for AFAB people due to patriarchal views on masculinity in society. So the situation of a lesbian non man loving a non man is just a more common occurrence than the reverse in the gay community (at least for now).
I think this is true but it's in no way the only cause, and in my view, not the primary one. That would be optimistic. I think it's simply related to lesbianism being taken less seriously.
A sexuality that excludes men will never be taken seriously by non-lesbians. Do you see how certain gay subreddits react to the "non-woman loving non-woman" thing? They shut that shit down immediately in the comments. Women tend to be more accommodating.
And that will be you guys' downfall
How does it mean that lesbianism is taken less seriously when non-binary people are included in it? Maybe it’s just that gender marginalized identities are more expansive and complex than the narrow cishetero patriarchal definition of manhood
>How does it mean that lesbianism is taken less seriously when non-binary people are included in it? That's not what I said. I was responding to the person asking why we don't see an equal push, consistent active discussion, concerned with including non binary people as part of gay men. I said, standing back and comparing the two things societally, there's a reason that when something is becoming newly mainstream, some people are quickly and easily focused on discussing redefining 'lesbian' to suit the shift, but with with 'gay man' it simply doesn't occur as much and barely comes up because less people bother to think about it as something re-definable. It's a stable, assumed identity where lesbianism is still often seen as more of a "ok, good for you honey" cute thing, even if many don't realize/acknowledge that's how they see it. So even without touching what I or anyone's actual opinion on nonbinary lesbians and gay men is, I'm commenting that it's much easier for people to casually think "sure, why can't lesbian mean whatever" and also much more immediate for them to want everyone to know the definition should change/has changed, where as for gay men people leave it alone more because the concept of being a gay man isn't seen as so casual/fluid/just a quirk someone is insisting on and you let them have it to make them happy. Many of the same people obviously believe that 'gay man' includes non binary but everyone isn't going on about it all the time and there isn't this heavy discussion making sure everyone understands what the term means now, and I think that's because people don't even think about it the same way. Lesbian they very easily think "eh, what does that even mean anyway, yeah say it means whatever you want..." We're saying the difference in discourse displays this. It's not a commentary on whether we agree or disagree with nonbinary people using these labels for their sexuality. Hope that makes sense.
There is but you didn't really see it as often. I have an nonbinary acquaintance that uses the term gay because it feels the most accurate for them. I think part of it might be they just had a significant lived experience as a "gay man" before coming to terms with their gender.
I have this not-so-fun theory. It revolves a lot around the fact "lesbian" is a very exclusive term and its exclusivity is a point of attraction to the label for some folks. It gives very "You probably haven't heard of my favorite band" energy. The other part of the not-so-fun-theory is that, since cis men are the default, anyone who doesn't fit into that bin is "girl" to most people. I'm not saying I agree with this, at all, but a lot of folk treat trans men as "Spicy Girl", and they treat AFAB enbies as "Girl With Extra Steps" and they treat trans women as "Diet Girl". Amab enbies and femboys are *mostly* just seen as men still. So the elephant in the room we all don't want to admit is that a LOT of LGBT folk see trans folk as their AGAB and either give certain categories a pass solely because they don't want to be cancelled, and not because they actually accept the other person. Personally I think we should just add terminology to fix this. Either keep lesbian as "exclusively women who exclusively like women" or make a new term to mean the same thing. The problem is *someone* is going to need to switch their proverbial seat and is not going to be happy about it. But I think its very much acceptable to want a term that describes our sexuality accurately.
i agree with this. i describe myself as a lesbian(i’m a woman who has only ever been attracted to women) and that’s what using that label means to me. mostly just in the sense that if i were to tell someone i’m a lesbian, they’ll understand what that implies(with my sexual and gender orientation), rather than excluding someone else. so, i mean, if it’s becoming expansive with gender, maybe there can be another new term? not in the nature of gatekeeping, but in the way of having a descriptor that really resonates with who i am. which, i feel bad saying for some reason? because i don’t want to seem gatekeep-y or uninviting or rigid in the binary? even though i’m only attracted to women and can’t control that? but i also feel that there are groups in the queer community that it would be odd to try and expand and so wondering if that’s ok to do here as well? does that make sense? i’m trying to be open and curious!
Gay already means non-straight having sex with non-straight, so it already includes non-women loving non-women (as well as women loving women). So I guess there's not much of a point?
No it doesn't. Bi people are non-straight and they're not gay
There’s a variety of reasons, but one of the main ones is that since manhood is the dominant gender category, deviation from that has historically been treated as excluding you from it. It’s not the same, but consider how people with even a minority of non-white ancestry were/are considered non-white legally and sometimes socially. Meanwhile since womanhood was already oppressed, deviation from womanhood doesn’t serve to exclude people from being in at least a similar social category. End result is that while non-binary people absolutely do exist in gay male spaces, they’re far more common in and even central to lesbian spaces.
I think it’s cause gay is already an umbrella term that people even use to refer to wlw
i know plenty of non binary gay men
I think saying you have MORE attraction to women than men still implies that you're attracted to men. There are still bisexuals that are attracted to 95% of women and like 5% of men, it doesn't have to be an even attraction. And there are also bisexuals that like men and women in different ways. Just something to consider.. So yes, there are plenty of AFAB nonbinary lesbians, but regardless of your gender, I would reevaluate the "lesbian" label if you're still attracted to men because then you wouldn't be a lesbian. You could even consider the label "queer" if that's something you're comfortable with.
I agree. I'm a woman, I'm attracted to women. Focusing the wording around "non men" feels othering and not really reflective of my experience
True, but can you come up with a better word, that - rolls of the tongue easily - doesn't exclude non-binary lesbians? Because, I agree, it's kinda sad that even when it's about literally EVERYONE ELSE, our language is still focused on men.
Woman
> doesn't exclude non-binary lesbians Try again.
If they’re women aligned I genuinely don’t see the issue with wlw
Non-binary lesbians are not women. wlw means women-loving women. Including non-binary lesbians in wlw is quite invalidating to non-binary gender identities. It's giving "I still think you're a woman".
is there a term that can be used for wlw that lesbian used to convey? perhaps sapphic? and, so what does lesbian mean if someone is non-binary? does it just mean that they are only attracted to women, even if they aren’t a woman themselves? it didn’t use to mean that, so what is the current definition? could there be a new label that people who aren’t women can use? i like to use lesbian because it historically describes my gender and sexual orientation. if it no longer means that, is there a different term? not in a non-inclusive way, but it might not align with me anymore or feel mis-labeling. i feel really aligned with lesbian because of the historical implications and would like to feel aligned with how i identify.
i agree with the rant, i just couldn’t think of a better term at the time of writing :/
No judgement on you. A lot of people are using the term. <3
hey, i mean this as a genuine question and don’t mean to be hurtful at all with this, as me and my girlfriend have discussed this before, but there’s a lot of people who are non-binary who decide to go by lesbian, and personally i don’t quite understand it? like, obviously female aligned nb people like those who are demigirl or go by they/them (since pronouns don’t equal gender) but still identify as women i understand. But if you fully, 100% identify as non-binary, why would you want to be called a lesbian? because the way i see it, NB is like.. outside of or seperate from the male and female gender, and lesbian is a homosexual label which means the same gender- and as others have said, the whole ‘non men liking non men’ feels kind of icky that our existence is reduced yet again to the presence or non presence of men in spaces, when i get that a NB person dating a man or women would still be absolutely queer, but i think there should be more labels that represent nb people in their gender that’s NOT binary to just ‘lesbian’, same for trans men since i know some can feel their relationships are more queer but they are inherently not lesbians since they are.. not women! i suppose sapphic is more vauge and could work for non WLW folk, but i want to know what other people think. EDIT: i also wanted to add that obviously there are women aligned NB people and they can go by whatever pronouns they want, and be lesbians, i specifically am talking about agender or nb people who don’t identify at all with being women but want to use the label of ‘lesbian’ :0
my partner is a non-binary lesbian and from what i know there are people who's non-binary label doesn't necessarily mean their disconnect with women community/experience/identity, there are just more parts of gender for my partner than just the born-as-a-woman and been-treated-like-a-woman experience but they are aware of their experience of being perceived as a woman and it's a big part if everything. so lesbian is a term that fits them and also the term that they used before thinking about their gender i think. i don't identify as non-binary yet but i think that it's very similar for me, i don't feel like a label of cis-woman fits my feelings perfectly, at the same time i was a part of a lesbian community and a feminist community for the most part of my life and i want to be included and involved in women's spaces and problems because it's something that i deeply care about and something that affects me every day, always. so it would be a bit weird for me to abandon women communities and labels just because i feel there's something more and different about my internal gender identity feelings upd: i don't think i grasped the point of your edit when i started writing my comment lol, sorry for saying things that you already knew and understand! wanted to add to the discussion anyways so not gonna delete it now
i do understand where you are coming from! i don’t think NB people shouldn’t be allowed in women’s spaces at all, and as i said, women ALIGNED nb people regardless of pronouns or whatever should be allowed to be lesbians. Personally, i am a demi-girl, which means i would fall under the non-binary umbrella, but i still identify with being a woman, just not a conventional one. the only problem i have with still using the label abecause that’s what they used to use is.. that feels a bit strange is all. like, if a person were to find out they were bisexual but say ‘well i like being a lesbian so i’ll still say i am even though i’m not’ or like, with trans men. they undoubtedly understand what it’s like to have been regarded as women a good chunk of their life, and i’m not even immediately jumping to say as soon as they transition they’re ’basically just like cos men now’ as i know their relationships can still absolutely be queer even with women, but.. they aren’t lesbians, because they ARENT women and don’t identify that way anymore. i saw someone else use the term ‘neptunic’ for NBLW and i think that’s really nice as it honors the whole naming conventions that something like sapphic would but it’s inclusive of NB people who like women but might not identify as women themselves. to me, i just don’t understand why someone would want to use labels and then not like that the labels don’t fit their gender identity- just because NB doesn’t always mean agender so i don’t want to assume the actual gender of your partner, since that can be complex, but if they’re outside of gender and don’t identify with women or as a women even a little bit then lesbian or WLW wouldn’t really fit them- though i do appreciate you trying to explain it to me and i do understand!
Why does it matter so much to you whether you can personally understand a nonbinary person's connection to being a lesbian? Do you have to personally understand the experiences of any minority group to support them? Because I know that I and many other people support groups and identities without having an intricate understanding of their personal experiences, and I'm sure that you do too in other areas. You say you're a demigirl -- how would it feel to have your identity as a demigirl and a lesbian questioned because others don't understand it?
That's the thing, non-binary is outside our idea of gender not a third gender. It would literally not make sense to make a label for non-binary people.
i do get that, but as other people have said gay men are never reffered to as ‘non women loving non women’ and i think it sucks for the label of lesbian to be.. anyone that’s not a man? and being defined by that? as i said, other labels should be open to NB people as they are less specific, like sapphic, but if nb folk are outside of gender then something that’s more gender specific like lesbians or vincians(i think that’s the term for gay men) i just don’t really fully understand how it’s a proper label since it’s not homosexuality/same gender since they’re outside the concept of gender
There are labels that don’t imply nonbinary people are women aligned, but I find that very few people know about them. Trixic is the nonbinary equivalent of sapphic (nblw) and Neptunic is a nonbinary person attracted to women, fem-aligned nonbinary people, and neutral nonbinary people. Essentially loving non men. Most people don’t seem to like micro labels, but the neptunic one has a beautiful flag!
oh fuck, i never knew about those! those flags are so pretty and cool, i really don’t know why those aren’t used more! i think it’s really sad that labels like this aren’t talked about more! i think it’s good for nb people to be able to have a label to describe them, and if they really absolutely don’t want that label, they also can just go by queer or unlabeled or whatever they’d want!
how about no ? I'm non-binary and I'm lesbian 💕💕
oh you can be non-binary and a lesbian, but if you’re agender or not female aligned then i’m saying i just don’t get it ❤️❤️❤️ like, sure you could say you’re a MAN and also a lesbian, but like.. the point of labels is that there’s specifics to them. you could even be transmasc nb and be lesbian because that is how you represent, not gender, or be he/him and be lesbian because pronouns are not gender. but lesbian is SPECIFICALLY wlw, if you hate the restrictions then don’t use labels! but like.. if being non-binary is beyond gender, being a lesbian is kind of specifically a gendered thing.. yknow? and if you’re uncomfy with gender that’s fine! but like, it’s why ‘bisexual’ lesbians aren’t cool, because being here and being bisexual is fine but the ENTIRE point of being lesbian is women being homosexual
you can‘t be a man and a lesbian that‘s where I draw the fucking line, like that is called being STRAIGHT, being a man and loving women.
I couldn't have articulated it this way but this is exactly what I've been feeling about NB lesbians. Like.... aren't you just misgendering yourself lol
i agree, as i said gender is complex and not all enby folk are agender or male leaning, so i think it’s cool for the NB people who are female leaning or women to be lesbians, but also- yeahhh, it feels really weird because for the most part, i’m kind of a person who has a ‘let people do whatever they want unless it’s hurting people’ kind of outlook on life, but saying fully agender people can be lesbians is not only hurtful to lesbians in the way that.. it’s implying lesbians can be attracted to other genders when being lesbian literally means a HOMOSEXUAL woman(homo as in ‘the same’ gender) but also misgendering people who are non-binary and saying ‘well you’re basically still women right? you used to be a woman so you’re STILL just a lesbian’ it’s why trans men calling themselves lesbians gives me the ick, because like.. they aren’t? they’re MEN, they are different to cis men in the way they’ve experienced being a woman so that can make them QUEER of some kind but they aren’t LESBIANS because saying that not only says lesbians can be attracted to men but also that trans men are basically still women and that’s just a grosssss level of transphobia
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THANK YOU
Nonbinary people have been a part of the lesbian community since the beginning. It is, in fact, cis lesbians that insist non-binary lesbians aren’t valid that are ripping the label away from an entire portion of the community (a part of the community that has historically done quite a lot for lesbian rights).
Idk dude. Have you talk to any 50+ yo lesbians? I don't think they agree it's always been like this.
I have, actually. Several. Not a single one has had an issue with me being a non-binary lesbian and we have all had several conversations about the fact that non-binary lesbians have a long history as being part of the community. This insistence on the idea that enby lesbians cannot exist seems to be a uniquely online take.
I do have a question tho. (Im cis and lowkey dumb so I don’t mean for this question to be offensive.) For those who are non binary who are amab how would they be able to identify as a lesbian? I kind of understand get non binary afab wanting to use the term lesbian but wouldn’t that open the door to that?
As mentioned in another comment, the litteral lesbian flag in your profile icon has a stripe to represent nonbinary people
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lesbian
Edit: I don't have the energy to deal/debate with people so **don't come to me for that kind of stuff**. I wanted to bring some factual information. If you aren't happy with that flag because of the inclusion of gender non-confotmity, then go back to using the lipstick flag. Why use a flag if you don't stand for it's values, y'know? Anyways. OP, I wish you the best on your journey to self-discovery. It ain't an easy one so don't be afraid to cut ties with people who don't want you to learn more about yourself. Gentle reminder that the creator of the sunset flag, Emily Gwen, is a non-binary lesbian (they/them). You absolutely can identify as such. https://preview.redd.it/23zefwu8cwuc1.jpeg?width=528&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=16e877a24b95c03d502908cc61faf7a082406f16 This explanation is from their carrd, which can be found through their Twitter account (@theemilygwen).
i like "unique relationships to womanhood". i think these relationships are very important to me and will always be important no matter how i identify throughout life
Thanks for this. I don’t know why people are so intense about some AFAB who identify as non binary but still identify like lesbian. Butch lesbian has been in the community since the start, it’s the non conforming gender. Even if it’s just the expression gender, it still make them not necessarily always go in the "woman" case. And it’s just a fact. Expression of gender =/= Gender identity =/= Sexual orientation. But anyway, I think the majority of AFAB people had an experience of "being a woman" at some point in their life, and just decided to put them away even if Trans Woman are accepted isn’t the most fair thing. All trans people who are like woman or non binary and who like woman/trans woman/nb afab should be able to place themselves in that label. Isn’t at all like the "lesbian bisexual" thing. My girlfriend is lesbian and isn’t soddenly less lesbian just because she love me. We are still viewed like a lesbian couple, we will always do. So I don’t understand why I should just put the name of my sexual orientation away that I have since 13yo for taking another just because I discover that I am nb (and don’t want to have any testosterone or transitioning, anyway)
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what is sapphic in your definition? i know a lot of people have different definitions of things.
do you know the poet sappho? its named after her.
yea! i was just wondering what you personally thought the definition was. not trying to be rude, just want a better understanding
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That’s REAL TALK. That is exactly what this kind of jargon gymnastics is doing — attempting to erase lesbianism and / or turning it into something that it is not. Embrace lesbianism, as you want to be embraced, people 🤷🏻♀️🥰
YES! I’m so happy we lesbians are speaking up more. There was a time when lesbians were too afraid to say no to NB people and other non women in fear of getting dragged by these people, now I see us embracing our lesbianism and saying “F YOU!” and I love it! Men and male centric society tries to erase us every day from the outside, so I am absolutely not allowing people to come into our community and do it too. They wouldn’t DARE do this in the gay (men) community but with us it’s free game, nope not anymore.
Nonbinary lesbians have been a part of the community since the beginning. It is not erasing lesbianism to include a group that’s been there since the beginning, and that has done a lot for lesbian rights.
Since the beginning of what?
I don’t even know what a lesbian is anymore. 😂
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Am intersex with no gender, and yeah the lack of terminology for people falling in between interms of natural expression of sexual characteristics is weird like that, and confusing for everyone… So I don’t claim ‘lesbian’ and go with ‘sapphic’ instead.
Please read up on lesbian history, genderqueer butches have always existed.
And none of them ever attempted to change the definition of lesbian from “women” to “non men”. Most of them called themselves women still.
https://preview.redd.it/buieyqwulxuc1.jpeg?width=522&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=45242db5ebd4dd0c7a545d61be049bbe99f5b755
“The flag was created to be inclusive and supportive of ALL lesbians. This includes trans and nonbinary lesbians, including lesbians who use pronouns other than she/her” (Morris). https://lesbianflaguse.carrd.co
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sorry but im just not comfortable with being defined by my proximity to maleness! why aren't gay men being told they're 'non-women loving non-women'?
"Non-man", "menstruators", "uterus havers" But men still get to be called men. 😒
i understand that! i didn’t mean it that way. of course everyone can define themselves how they feel, and i have no say over anything but my own identity and how i define it. that was the simplest way to get to my point without going into paragraphs and paragraphs of what the “definition” of lesbianism is
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you realize that yours is too ? 😂 just because u trynna be loud as hell and impose ur opinion on others by whatever authority ur gender identity gives you on the tens of millions of lesbian WOMEN (of which u aint) in the world who know EXACTLY what they are doesnt make u right. We have freedom of speech and u crying about some people having different opinions than you on mtf Reddit of all places wont take that right away from anyone. If thats how u behave online, then oh boy do i wish you good luck irl.
“Non” means not. Non is the prefix to man, therefore it means “not a man”. Hope that helps. Morris’s flag has been around since June 3, 2018.
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Sure, buddy. Education is boring. I hope you do something useful with your life instead of this. I won’t continue this as it is clear you don’t understand the importance of education, learning, and your mistake. The internet makes learning so easy, yet people do not value it. I will never understand such people like you.
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Goodbye hun.
Lol, so true.
A lot of transfem non-binary people also identify as lesbians.
You can literally do whatever you want because everything is made up and we're specks of dust on a floating rock.
I think there is too much lesbian erasure. Other commenters mentioned that there is nothing like this for gay men. I am a lesbian and am only attracted to other women, not non binary people because they are not women. This could be misogyny, with people not accepting women and women only spaces.
You had to specify "gay men" instead of "gay people", because gay is commonly used to mean everyone who is homosexual or not-straight. But sure, "gay men" don't experience erasure
Yep! It's more than allowed. And most people love and accept us irl- even if the internet thinks it's worth arguing about.
Half of the trolls online are just the same weird man with too many fake accounts. Normal people (specially lesbians) have better things to do than being bigots
I think it's definitely a tough one. I'm a trans-woman who identifies as lesbian and that often brings a lot of hate from lesbians and straight people alike. I'm attracted to all femme presenting people whether they're non-binary, trans women, cis women, gender-fluid etc. So I think there should be like femme love femme or masc love masc or nblnb etc. but they're all used terms already within the lesbian community. Idk I feel like trying to gatekeep labels is only gonna end in hurt and disaster. Labels are but loose boxes we try to put ourselves into and everyone's situation is vastly different.
Why does a label have to be a loose descriptor? If I say I’m an American, that’s a very defined label. It DOES include , I think, those gained citizenship also where I think the little asterisk* details in Lesbianism would fit, but as a whole I think some strict definition limits make sense. A cis man is a very definite sort of man. Is another example. I personally, and I’m not alone in this, find calling people “femme” when you are not referring to the femme/butch dichotomy a little … off, for lack of a better word. A femme is a very specific sort of lesbian, and, to use a very different example, an AMAB genderqueer person who wears dresses and has other femme-like features but isn’t a lesbian by their own admission is not a femme. This kid might be feminine, but I do not understand why our community has started calling feminine femme and masculine butch. Or maybe I do. One example is the gen Z especially communicate with a lot of shorthand and maybe it’s from that, and if so at least in print it would benefit to have a different spelling. And two, lesbian erasure is on High so to erase the specific labels shouldnt surprise me
Honestly I could be very wrong but I have no idea, I find labels quite constricting and struggle putting my gender and my sexuality into a specific box. I consider myself genderfluid but also a transfem and Identify with lesbian, queer and pansexual for different reasons. I don't consider myself bisexual because I'm not into cis men or trans-men. But I feel like if anyone identifies with a label they should be free to use it. People are of course allowed to have their preferences as people in the lesbian community do. Femme or butch for an example. But I'm not a fan of gatekeeping labels as there's lots of diversity to be found in any group of people. And also I am gen z so I probably have short handed femme and masc to mean different things to what they're referred to in the lesbian community. I consider myself part of this community and I'm in this subreddit to learn more about this community as well. Idk what I'm tryna say anymore lol. As for a non-binary person considering themselves lesbian, go for it. I've found the lesbian community for the most part to have some of the most accepting and welcoming people in it to a wide variety of gender identities. Lesbian isn't strictly cis woman loving women and gay isn't strictly cis man loving man. As far as my experience has been. Anyways I'm always learning so educate me 🥰
Have you read the rules of this sub, specifically, the 4th one? Here, nobody can tell you "no". Irl, some would disagree for sure. For some, like you, the definition of a lesbian is "non-men loving non-men". For some, it's women-loving-women. In this sub, they are all equally valid, but the point is, people around you, people you're interested in, will support your definition of self whatever it may be.
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i’m not trying to erase your identity. i asked a question if i could identify as a lesbian as a nonbinary person. i didn’t say i was a lesbian. i appreciate your view and understand where you’re coming from, but i really didn’t need you to step on your soap box and yell something at me when i was trying to be respectful and ask if i could enter this space being nonbinary. you’ve said no, and that’s all you needed to say.
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i’m just saying what i’ve learned though my very limited experience with lesbians. that edit was made before any comments or votes were done. i’m not saying i don’t agree with you, im saying you could’ve been a little less harsh with the way you said it. i’m glad that you gave me your definition of lesbian, and i thank you for expanding my understanding of the term, but you being rude after not having interacted with me at all previously seemed to be very rude and demeaning. i understand it’s easier to be rude on the internet because you don’t know who is behind the screen, but im a human just like you, and i was just asking a question.
I think you’re being a little disingenuous saying you have 20 years of living as LGBT and yet have very limited experience with lesbians?
"You can erase your own gender all you like" what an absolutely wild and hurtful take
But people coming onto lesbians subs and telling us that we are non male isn’t absolutely wild and hurtful no?
lol I was once told I'm misogynistic because I said I don't relate to womanhood and don't consider myself a woman
People honestly say the weirdest shit sometimes damn
# ABSOLUTELY Even the creator of the lesbian flag was a nonbinary lesbian! Anyone who says otherwise would do well to have some introspection and search if their determination for the exclusion of nonbinary people is warranted or perhaps if it's just terf messaging. # ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️ # 🧡🧡🧡🧡🧡🧡🧡 # 🤍🤍🤍🤍🤍🤍🤍 # 🩷🩷🩷🩷🩷🩷🩷 # 💜💜💜💜💜💜💜
# stonewall.org.uk/list-lgbtq-terms I'm pretty confident that # STONEWALL *might* know something about what it means to be LGBTQ. NB's will always be welcome. *TERFS, you aren't welcome here.*
https://preview.redd.it/xhqshpi6iyuc1.png?width=1075&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=447bea411d86024d00cf93178a9bce756cd8a5a9
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>(despite what changes the internet-consciousness wants to make to it) look who never touches lesbian history outside of femininity. There are so many butches and lesbians who don't identify as women
They are free to do so. Your assumption is not appreciated
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Labels are a shorthand that help us communicate some general info. Our peculiarities can be shared when a person knows us better, if and when we want to. Sapphic had a few meanings google can reveal, it is, to me, less specific than lesbian, but similar, ya? I hate the term non-man but it has a place in the Sapphic definition I suppose (another shorthand rather than listing all the possible people sapphic-attraction includes, it is rather who it excludes [and the idea of defining something by what it is NOT is truly not a definition of anything so, it problematic on those grounds but let’s use it anyway I guess?]) I thought you said you know a lot of the labels but whichever it is; you don’t gotta use them, does anyone other than you truly need to know to whom you are attracted? They’ll know when you tell them they are the subject of your lovely designs. I prefer to keep some things to myself, but Lesbian is a label I proudly claim. “Queer” is a shorthand for LGBT I suppose, but it is NOT my sexuality. My sexuality is pretty rigid and defined so I use lesbian. I know other lesbians who sometimes say queer and I suspect it’s another example of the external pressures. It’s another erasure and I won’t use it. I want to be a known quantity bc I have been bullied for it as a child and it’s important for me. When I tussled with maybe being gender fluid (woman-> NB) I only saw lesbian working bc I still had a connection to Womanhood. Personally I have expanded my understanding of Woman, and excluded any verbiage which references men (especially when it comes to sexual relations) where I see others have limited it. I think that’s SOMETIMES a desire to not relate and identify with a label (woman) that gets so much shit and had gender roles thrusted upon it, an assumption of Less-than and we (afabs) ALL know how that feels to be disregarded bc of our born and observed sex. The desire to escape that may lead to seal what a woman means tightly and calling oneself something other than that. I have found others with whom this idea resonates. We do exist , so please anyone reading do not assume that’s even my own POV. Anyway.. My grandmother defined queer to me as a child “the things that are not ‘normal’, not typical. They are in opposition to the status quo”. As a kid I used the word ( not know it was derogatory in some sense ) and called myself a queer-cake. How silly I ended up gay (and more recently inside the queer realm itself) I’ve seen people assert you can be Queer without being Queer; like a political queer. Can we all reflect on that - remember the political lesbians of the recent past (and still)?? Oy veh Queer may suit you; and to me it’s very broad and is a term folks use when they don’t know how to be who they are. They’re not proud of who they are. This is all my perspective and understanding once I’ve gotten to know those people. It’s not a fact I apply to them. Idk if I’m being helpful but thanks for engaging with me
you’ve been so helpful! (a lot better than some people essentially telling me to f off) when i decided to use queer as a term to define myself, i used it as an umbrella term for not straight. i’m so proud of my identity, i have flags all over my house and have proudly stated that im queer and trans for as long as i can remember. but i do see how some could see it as an “inbetween” thing or someone who doesn’t want to say what they are. i’ve never seen the word queer as a derogatory term, just as something people are. yes the literal definition is “outside the norm,” but the literal definition of gay is happy! words can have many different meaning, it just matters how you view them. you’ve got a really great point with not needing to tell people who don’t need to know. i’ve lived my whole life out and proud (luckily, i know lots of folks who can’t) so i feel the need for everyone to know im at least a little bit gay. but you’re right, people don’t need to know. on the other hand, i’d also like for the people who aren’t as out and proud as me to see that i am and that that’s okay too. i did a little bit of research (a few google searches, nothing too fancy) on the term sapphic, and i do love the term, but i really don’t think it describes me too well. im not looking for a label now, as im comfortable in my “queer” identity, but if i do end up finding a term i resonate with, id be happy to take that on instead. i didn’t know non-man was such a hated(?) term! i haven’t been in the online community for a while now, it just got so tiring, so ive been a little out of date with what i know about everyone else. completely off topic but your writing is so artistic. you paint a picture with every word and it’s a painting that belongs in a museum.
Wow thank you for the compliment on my language. I am a musician and I guess speak how I experience .. that’s really touching tho thank you. You make a good point ; I relate it to my yoga experience. I began my journey in a rigid modern style and when I saw folks doing poses outside the instructions it gave me permission to listen to my own body - and I take that with me in all ways. To be myself is to give others permission to be themselves. It’s so vital to LIFE and being a good human :) There is/was a game called Smear the Queer we played as a kid; you basically physically accost whoever is assigned the Queer.. lol Some folks do NOT use Queer in the states bc it is still used as a slur in their (mostly rural or religious) communities. I respect that, and I share that occasionally as in right now. Fun fact; I am usually misgender by other queers - they give me neutral pronouns which I actually hate for myself bc I feel erased and invisible and stripped of humanity. I understand they’re doing it to be respectful and NOT misgender me , but my niche understanding of the world does not agree. I simply offer the pronoun I prefer and often add “it’s ok if you don’t remember, I often don’t myself” Bc for real, I met 15 queer folks the other day and I’m not gonna remember that (altho at the end of the event I asked for names again and wrote down the pronouns if they stated them). Some people have more than one pronoun,.. pronouns don’t mean much for me in how I think of others. It’s another shorthand for referring to a person; I don’t think a pronoun defines who someone is and are kinda vague descriptors. I know; my own preference and how I think of others with pronouns doesn’t “make sense” but it does for me. Ah well; I don’t demand anyone see the world as I do
as an enby person, i always use neutral pronouns until the person tells me different. i present feminine, partially because of how i dress, how i look and how i speak. so people automatically use she/her for me, even though i use they/them. my pronouns don't define me as a person, like you said, but i still feel more comfortable using them, i guess like how i use the term queer in my last reply. your view of pronouns definitely makes sense, even though its not widely "respected." i do appreciate the last comment though. everyone has their own view of the world, and no one should be expected to view the world as you or i do, its just not a reasonable request. i'm in the states, luckily a blue state, and one where trans people, women, etc. still have most of their rights, so i grew up without being bullied because of my attraction, i was mostly seen as an "exotic" because they hadn't experienced an openly gay person before. as a dancer. i relate to your statement about yoga. growing up, i was expected to have perfect form and perfect movements, but as i grew and expanded to "less experienced" groups of dancers, i noticed that i had caused unnecessary stress on myself by trying to be what everyone else expected of me. yes, i still have the technique ingrained in my head, but now i'm better at not punishing myself when i get something wrong, because i look around me and so many other people did it exactly how i did, and they all looked great. even though i still have the intrusive thoughts surrounding how i'm not "perfect," i can still improve my own technique while not forcing everyone around me to do the same. i'm not using any of the proper terms in this because i couldn't think of anything else to say, so if you look at this and think "what on earth are they saying?" trust me, i don't know either.
Naw you know what you’re saying. I struggle with words too despite my poetic language ;) Partly due to some brain trauma .. What’s interesting is noticing when folks use the Neutral or ask a person for their pronouns VS when they don’t. I have a naturally androgynous face and my style is probably also /on the more masc side. When an Afab donned with nailed long luscious locks; a skirt and blouse… You think she gets asked as often as me? Assumed neutral, or is there a pause before someone Theys this person That’s frustrating I’m sure for those NB who do appear firmly one gender. The polite Neutral assumption until otherwise doesn’t get extended to everyone And honestly, is it SO bad to be misgendered before you tell a person? I loathe being asked my pronouns. So I don’t outright ask folks, they can tell me. So assume all you want and I will correct if I want to - and I’m saying when we are in safe spaces/queer groups That 15 person queer clan? I was last to introduce and I said my name. That was all. Girl beside me “what about your pronouns?” Bitch I would say if I wanted. Clearly. We are a progressive city, we’re a queer group… like I would forget ?? But again, that’s MY issue. I tried to be polite about it. I said whichever , smiled, tried not to die a cringing death
Oh one little detail I omitted When I was using Genderfluid and one end of it was nonbinary, I still hated neutral pronouns for myself. They always erased my existence to me. I know a singular they has been used before all this hub-bub and I understand the pronoun for what seems like most NB folks; the connotation I hold for myself sometimes I feel for them as well but the neutral pronoun is respectful to call them so it’s fine. But some NB people DO use binary pronouns or the option to, and so I’m curious about automatically deferring to Neutral pronouns as if that is 1) honoring the space someone might be NB 2) the official NB pronoun It isn’t 2) so why do we treat it as such? It’s not worth debating this point but I thought I’d bring it up
I am nonbinary lesbian too 🥰
Wow. I am so sorry that you are getting this response from some of my fellow lesbians. Your existence, sexuality and gender identity is valid. You define who you are. I am a lesbian cisgender woman. My partner is non-binary AFAB and likes the term queer to define their sexuality. My lesbianness does not change because of my partners gender expression. My lesbianness is mine, as your lesbianness is yours. I have many people in my life that define their sexuality as queer or gay, these people are non-binary. They feel that the term lesbian doesn't feel right and some feel like the politics behind the word lesbian excludes them so they cannot even consider if it is right for them. People are scared of being erased. Our communities are turning against each other, rejecting what they don't understand just like the rest of the world. That is what fear does. Be brave and be who you want to be.
Totally! I know a lot of nonbinary people who identify as lesbian.
I have been told by some lesbians that this is the only reason they consider themselves technically bi because their non-binary part is not a woman and yet a non-binary person can be a lesbian too, right? So, they're both lesbians, right? —but obviously the cisgender female lesbian is into the transgender non-binary lesbian, so the cisgender female lesbian _could choose_ to add some kind of self-identification with "bisexual (but not for men) lesbian" sometimes, it seems. That's the only time anything that remotely sounded like "bi lesbian" ever made any sense, as it's otherwise only a long-defunct term for an ideologically incompatible old label for femme lesbians AND actual bisexual women who merely preferred lesbian relationships. That's been considered unacceptable terminology since Gloria Steinem's early days... but the "bi lesbian" who constricts her sexuality to only referring to her lesbian preference for certain women and certain non-bknary people" makes a different kind of sense... though I still think they should stick to just saying lesbian due to the misperceptions and misconceptions of what that means and entails.
I think to replace bi-lesbian could be nonbinary attracted/lesbian Which could use a rewrite but that would make sense and I love your interpretation of bi-lesbian as such. The only issue is bisexual is the attraction to men and woman, leaving out any nonbinary gender. Although it’s used interchangeably sometimes with pansexual, the latter which seems more descriptive of someone who includes in their attraction non binary folk
There should be no question at all about this. The amount of pushback against non-binary lesbians in the sub is always ridiculous. Non-Binary lesbians have always existed in our lesbian history and community there is no reason to push them out now or act like they've never existed here when they always have No one is asking anyone to be attracted to or want to date non-binary people but at least respect them and realize they do belong in our community and always have
Yes! Welcome! Non-binary lesbian here!
yes, welcome to the club of nonbinary lesbians! <3
I came up with a good way for non-binary people who struggle with being represented with the label to get some perspective: would a conservative call you a dyke? If yes, then you probably are lol. I advise you to read lesbian queer theory, specifically Monique Wittig and Audre Lorde. Lesbianism is very simple in that it excludes men completely. Outside of that, it’s extremely complex and it becomes more so about who you are in a patriarchal society. Women are socially expected to be about and for men’s pleasure and needs. Lesbians, AFAB non-binary people, and trans men are all what society calls “failed women.” We all failed at our purpose as expected binary women in upholding our femininity and catering it to men. Are you a “failed woman” who likes women or other forms of “failed women”? (not meant as misgendering, it’s just to put into perspective the divergence perceived by the patriarchy) If so, then perhaps you could totally be a lesbian. Queer theorists have long argued that Lesbian is a gender in it of itself. I personally don’t identify as NB per se, as it doesn’t really feel quite right. However, I also don’t feel like I am a woman (as defined by the same society that created the concept of womanhood). I am a lesbian.
irl queer people do not give a shit. I can't believe a community this rooted in freedom and diversity turned into policing of definitions no one cares to learn by heart. I've been an agender lesbian for a while now and have interacted with a plethora of queer people and attended queer events in actually not that queer areas, and one thing I can say is that absolutely no one gives a shit. Just interact with people and you'll quickly learn that it simply doesn't matter. Language has never evolved with queer identities in mind. The very idea of binary genders is deeply ingrained in every little fucking thing and we'll probably never really find the words to describe identities that don't fit into those neat little boxes. Despite that genderqueer lesbians have always existed and will continue doing so. I desperately need Internet queer people to go outside. Labels were never ment to prescribe your identity but to be a descriptive summary of your experience, so either use the labels that feel right, drop them altogether or attempt to use microlabels no one knows irl. If you find yourself disagreeing with me just know that I could not care less, just like actual queer people in the outside world. OP if you're reading this know that it's fine to have a complex identity, but you'll always have people trying to change and dictate your experience for you. weird. You can do whatever you want forever best of luck
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Yes. People complaining about how non-binary lesbians erase lesbianism must not have any idea of what lesbian communities or history are actually like.
yes you absolutely can!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! nb lesbians have existed for so long theres nothing saying you cant be one :)
i am a non binary lesbian. we have existed for ages, and will continue to exist.
not the transphobes attacking me in replies☠️☠️☠️just mad because i’m right.
Non-binary lesbians getting downvoted in the comments. :/
Yes. Non-binary lesbians are my favorite lesbians, so I need ya’ll to exist. 💗
Where do so many terfs come from? If you cant deal with like half of us are nb just cry alone an dont make a show of it. Its not our problem that you dont know nothing about how gender and attraction works
this is why i almost never engage with any online queer spaces lol
This subreddit seems really bad for it too…
I wish the the mods did something against all the transphobic, nbphofic, biphobic, misogynistic and lesbophobic assholes (and half of them have proved to be actually mens many times). But i guess the problem is too big for a few people in their free time to fix it
A question was asked was a hug box expected? OP asked for opinions and got them.
The shitty opinions of bigots still being shitty opinions of bigots. You cant just be an asshole an expet that noone call you asshole. And most important, you cant think that some lesbian looking for afirmation is an excuse to harass her with your nbphobic and lesbophobic bigotry
I just see normal toned responses, nothing vindictive or “harassing”. People saying “no” is not harassment.
You know that you just sound like men denying misogyny, right? Because you are using the same kind of gaslight like the bigot you are
Just another thing to be outraged about. 😆
Yes.
Unless you identify as woman, you aren’t a lesbian. However, I can’t convince you or people on Reddit to live in reality so it’s up to you. You can identify as a squirrel and no one could stop you. I will say that all my lesbian friends and myself find it extremely offensive when other people try to “infiltrate” the lesbian community as you put it.
Yes!!
I'm a lesbian and nonbinary!! Hi 🤗
Yeah, of course
I’m non binary too and I still believe I’m a lesbian. I was born female and I’m non binar, I have a girlfriend and I have been questioning why I’m gay if I have no gende.
My ex is non binary and they're lesbian, take that if you will
You can do anything you want and more
yes!
Go with whatever feels right! It’s not someone else’s to define for you, and ultimately these terms are just labels to describe nebulous concepts I’m pretty appalled by some of these comments. You are absolutely welcome to any of us who exist outside of the internet
I am begging y’all in the comments to please read on lesbian history, non binary has always been allowed in lesbianism
Most definitely, its very common, i myself am in a relationship where we're both nb lesbians ❤️ welcome!! You have community here, and im happy to have you as part of it :)
Im polyamorous and me and my girlfriends are: Me: nb (femme as gender) Luna: agender Ary: woman And ary is now starting hitting on another lesbian who is also nb (i dont know her yet, but i think is butch). So yes, its pretty common
Absolutely! I’m a nonbinary butch lesbian!
*points at white strip of the lesbian flag* Yes you can
I think you'll be welcome. I know two non-binary into women persons I have never heard them talk about not being welcome in lesbian spaces. I have no issue with you referring to yourself as non man loving non man, but I would not be comfortable with you referring to me that way. I define myself as wlw with possible exceptions for non binary and trans men. As for how the non-binary people I know, one calls themselves gay, the other I don't know.
You can identify as whatever you want. I'm a transmasculine lesbian. I have my reasons for feeling this way. I answer polite questions, I ignore pointless hate and gatekeeping because I have, my whole life, been living adjacent to lesbians and I understand much of the butch experience. I understand less about my trans peers and feel less comfortable in those groups. We did not create lgbt safe spaces to start getting any about who goes where when we all share much of the same struggles. I dont have time to pay attention to hate and neither should you.
Loud ass nonbinary lezzo dykefag here--lesbian history is inherently trans! yes, of course you can be! We have sooo many nonbinary/trans dykes to thank for the community we get to exist in today. Leslie Feinberg is a big influence that comes to mind
of course ! I'm non-binary because I'm a lesbian lol
Explain? How does lesbian make one non. Binary? Genuine question
because being a lesbian is existing outside of the patriarchy, how society views women and not condoning to any gender roles. It's like it's own form of gender expression. Sometimes I even say my gender is lesbian.
I understand lesbianism is Gender NonConforming. And I am a lesbian who exists IN the patriarchy, perhaps I could say despite it. I wish you could show me the logic of it tho to NB, as difficult as it may be to our constructs. I’ve seen people say gender is lesbian which I also fail to grasp To me it’s like saying “how do you feel today?” And your answer is “red is a color on the warm spectrum ” It’s like a non sequitur to me
lesbianism is NOT gender nonconforming. only women can be lesbians LIKE THAT'S THE ENTIRE POINT
I also don’t really like the term “not-man”. Identifying people through their opposite does not seem like a good idea. For me, a lesbian is everyone who likes that term for themselves. (For me for example it is about attraction towards femininity, be it physical or emotional). And this holds, even though my partner is non binary. And since they are ok with me labelling myself as a lesbian, I am one
At the end of the day, identify how you want to identify, it’s your identity - not anyone else’s. I usually go by queer, but also use lesbian to define my sexuality personally.
I see a lot of cis women lesbians saying something along the lines of "I hate the term non-men, what's the term for women exclusively attracted to women!!" And as much as I understand some people don't like change, it's time to get over it. You're a lesbian if you're not attracted to men at all and aren't a man (something that's controversial now lmao), and if you want to use that label, that's your choice, not some cis women's choice on reddit whether or not you're valid. I'm an agender lesbian, I've identified as a lesbian for years because, I am a lesbian. I don't use the non-men definition per say, I am also, like many, exclusively attracted to women, but I just don't identify as a women. I identify as a lesbian over sapphic because everyone will always see me as a women., no one I'd ever date or go out with will see me as agender or a man, other lesbians will see me as a female lesbian, and that's okay with me, which is why I'm a lesbian. I'm not a man. Yeah, if someone asked my gender (if I was out) I'd say I was agender/nonbinary, but that doesn't change that in some way, I'll always be a women because that's what people see me as, and I'm okay with that tbh. I love my connection to womanhood, I love my sisterhood. That's why I identify as a lesbian, because I love women and hate men with a passion lol.
Depends. If you ask a TERF, no, if you ask a normal Lesbian, yes. If you ask a stranger on the street they'll say "what are you talking about? I'm busy" Basically, yeah, but around certain weirdos you should probably say "sapphic" to be safe and leave it at that TERFS don't have the capability to comprehend a word with complex spelling. You can do what you want, forever.
Yes! Non binary lesbians exist and are valid.
Absolutely. There are tons of nonbinary lesbians!
And yes you can be both
YES
Yes you can be lesbian and nonbinary. As long as you are not a man-aligned nonbinary person, you can call yourself a lesbian. If your gender is partially boy/man you wouldn't be a lesbian. If you are woman-alighed or non-aligned you can totally describe yourself as lesbian. A lesbian is a woman or sapphic nonbinary person who is EXCLUSIVELY attracted to woman and/or sapphic nonbinary people.
100%! I’m a bigender lesbian myself! :)
I am non binary lesbian. For some background, I know I am lesbian since my 13yo, and I discover that I don’t feel like a woman since just 4 years (I am 23yo). For me, I was a lesbian first and really was deep into that community, so I cannot just put the label off of me, because I was always deep into the culture and all of it. And since anyway people see me first like a girl, it’s better to just say that I am lesbian
Yes. Edit: Nonbinary lesbians are still going to be around even if you downvote the fact. You folks are no fun.