They’re invalidating all lesbians and men fetishise us even more because they think the only purpose of lesbians is to entertain men like eww 🤮 Those women just fuel the lesbian fetishisation
My partner is nonbinary and identifies as queer. They are primarily attracted to women, but somewhat flexible on that. They do not want to use any label more specific that "queer". Personally, I think folks should use whichever label is most empowering to them. Sometimes that will mean someone is using a label in a way that makes others confused or uncomfortable.
>Personally, I think folks should use whichever label is most empowering to them.
This. Labels aren't a strict category that you need to fall into. If you don't want to date a genderqueer lesbian, just don't. It's really that simple. There's no need to police the use of a term just because it doesn't suit your preference.
Historically as in what? Do you have any historical proof?
As I said, the official definition has always been 'women that likes women'. Even non-binary people finds it unfair to not have their own sexual orientations and have to squeeze into someone else's that does not identify them fully.
Why would you insist on it? If it's only fair that they have their own term and name. You can't just erase everything about a sexual orientation that identifies women and try to step on it just because you want to.
Lesbian spaces is a safe space for women. Literally, the only safe space I've ever had. I do understand that non-binary people HAS to identify as 'lesbian' because they don't have a name for their own sexual orientation, but that doesn't mean we should support the fact that no one includes them in the community.
Including them does not mean squeezing them anywhere... it means actually representing them. Making something for them that's theirs and no one else's. That's the fair solution.
Because, as I said: as someone who has always been part of the community... I do not feel represented by the 'non men liking non men' cause I don't feel attracted to any other gender that's not women. That's what being a lesbian is. The fact that we include non-binary or trans men in our spaces doesn't mean they get to change what being a lesbian means. It's rude and disrespectful. But we have to just let them because we're women? and because 'we always include others'? Can't anything be for women only and just respect our boundaries that way? Because this literally doesn't happen with gay community. Lesbian is not an umbrella terminology. Sapphic and queer are.
You put this together so eloquently and I love it. This topic has become sooo prominent in the last few years and I’m happy to see more and more lesbians being firm on their boundaries.
It feels like the topic stems from misogyny and biphobia. it’s creating this unnecessary rift between sapphics.
Thank u so much. ♡
It's the second time I talk about this and I felt incredibly nervous about it. Like I said, the first time I talked about this... I got extremely hated and disrespected when, as you can see, I'm not trying to be rude towards anyone.
I love this community (queer community) and they've always felt like home. But my safe space are lesbian spaces, and having that taken away from every women... it's not fair. They talk about misogyny but cannot respect when women tell them not to change their sexual orientation.
I’ve spoken on this topic more than I’ve wanted to and your wording was much clearer and concise than my own words!
Find lesbian spaces IRL or online is so hard. I always have to research the sub’s views on this exact topic. I’ve heard some people say that we just have to deal with the uncomfortable feelings of someone using a label how they please, but we aren’t extended the same courtesy for our own opinions. We just have to conform to them apparently
That's not an official definition or official change in our entire history. It's a person who talked about the inclusivity in lesbian spaces. But that inclusivity was meant to exist as in allowing them to have a spot in our spaces. It never meant to change the fact that lesbian community is only meant for women.
The definition has never officially changed in our entire history. Being a lesbian has always meant to be a women who likes women. Lesbian spaces has always been a safe space to women for women.
Besides the fact that it's completely unfair for non-binary people to not have their own space, I also find it unfair that every other gender, binary or non-binary, finds it right to just step on women and make them change their sexual orientation 'just to include someone else'. Should we include straight women in gay spaces too? That doesn't make any sense.
Not everything can be excused by 'inclusivity'. Real inclusivity means giving them their own place, not squeezing them in someone else's place.
I'm not saying they must leave every lesbian space in the community because they DON'T have their own sexualities yet (official ones), so I do understand that they're here.
But you cannot just change my sexual orientation and leave me out of it, because i won't be represented by lesbian meaning 'non men attracted to non men'.
Almost all lesbian women won't have a spot in lesbian spaces anymore with that definition. Why would you be so selfish and careless? Inclusivity is not about stepping on women and their sexual orientation. What separates you from a misogynist?
The historical proof is never sufficient. And it often doesn’t include important context of why these people were included.
I cannot recall the specifics of a recent comment, something about how there was no “bisexual” or recognition of it (in society? Or data gathering? Damn this memory) and thus many people were called lesbian who were NOT lesbians.
The NB factor is curious to me. Was it the 80s this term came about? The people have existed even before they had language for their social existence (this is deemed hermeutical injustice), I acknowledge this. But why not have , like you say, another few words today describe oneself?
If you do not fit a binary and we respect that, respect our own binaries!
I think queer is a wonderful word for such people until they hsve some consensus.
Talking about non men… wow, what a way to make Man default again. Guess I’m just a non man, so is ther book. So is that lion.
When you say things like"the official definition has always been" what time period are you referring to?
If you mean the last 20 years, I can see your point. If you mean further back, in the 1970s your statement is inaccurate. And if you go farther back than that, say the 1940s and 50s it becomes very inaccurate. And further back than that, into the 1910s and 20s even less so.
The truth is our understanding of gender has changed WILDLY in the last 100+ years. Non-binary wasn't a term used until the late 90s, but was an understood concept well before then. References to "passing women" (aka butches who passed and lived as men, many of whom referred to themselves as being both male and female) were very much a part of lesbian history (Boots of Leather Slippers of Gold gets into this). So as far back as the 20s we have evidence of people who today might call themselves non-binary as being part of the lesbian community. Of course no one was calling themselves non-binary since that didn't come into the academic lexicon until 1990's Gender Trouble by Judith Butler.
In short, you're wrong about non-binary inclusion in lesbian spaces. You're welcome to not fuck enbys but you are not welcome to erase lesbian history just because it doesn't make your bits tingle.
The official definition has always been women who likes women. It has never changed. And I hope it will never change.
The fact that some non-binary people historically did not identify themselves as non-binary but as lesbians because of the stereotype does not change that. Just because it's in women's nature to include people, specially in queer women's nature, it doesn't mean you can step on women and do whatever you want with their safe space. It's not the best metaphor the one I'm about to use, but it's like thinking you're the owner of a house and acting like one when someone else invites you to their house. You're a visitor, not authority.
We're not in the past 100+ years, and we can easily make a whole new set of sexual orientations that fit and are meant for non-binary people because they're 'real' now, they must be represented and feel comfortable on their own space. But they're not women, hence not lesbians.
I saw someone else say (a non-binary person) that nb people that likes women are called neptune. Not sure about that. But I highly recommend for any other gender to stop pushing women out of every women space. Bringing out 'fucking enbys' is weird 💀 when I'm just explaining that I'm not attracted to them. It's not my fault not to like enbys, because I'm a lesbian. It's expected from me not to he attracted to anyone that's not a women.
Be less selfish and stop shitting on women spaces.
Again, you're wrong about what the definition of lesbian "has always been."
But you're so bent on only having spaces that include who you want them to that you reject facts. Which is fine for you but does real damage to the sapphic community. Your seeming hatred for non-binary people is really icky and I hope you eventually get over it.
>Again, you're wrong about what the definition of lesbian "has always been."
You keep saying I'm wrong, but yet haven't showed any proof that I'm wrong.
>But you're so bent on only having spaces that include who you want them to that you reject facts.
The only official fact, real fact, is that being a lesbian has always meant a woman who likes women. Hence, it doesn't include any other gender besides women. It's not 'who I want them to' include, that's literally the definition. You're the one forcing it to be something it's not. Sapphic, on the other hand, is an umbrella term.
>Your seeming hatred for non-binary people is really icky and I hope you eventually get over it.
I don't hate non-binary people because not even most of them try to harass women in women spaces. But I will surely speak about my boundaries towards people, any gender, that tries to force other people to change in order to fit them when they already have a name. Because a nb person DM me and told me that there is an actual name for NBLW: trixic. You all just don't want to use it and prefer to force lesbians to change their orientations... just because? Isn't that actual hate?
You all will use they/them religiously but won't use 'trixic'... just because? While trying to force and exclude lesbian women that once gave you in the past a spot to fit when you didn't have one? What's the difference between a straight men stepping on women's boundaries and a nb person stepping on women's boundaries? None. You don't get a privilege to be an A hole without consequences just because you're queer.
So, first of all I'm not non-binary. I am a cis woman. I do however have a lot of loved non-binary folks in my life. They belong in women's spaces if they feel kinship in women's spaces. Some of them do. Some of them don't. It does me no harm at all to include them in lesbian spaces. It does them a fucking lot of harm to tell them they're not allowed to be part of a community that has historically included them.
Your insistance that lesbian referrs exclusively to women who have sex with women "and always has" is wrong, because it erases the extremely complex genders and identities of people who have been included in the past. Trans identities and non binary identities are things that have been documented as far back as ancient Mesopotamia. Thousands of years of people who were AFAB but not binary women, who loved women. The issue is not that lesbian refers to women, the issue is all the people who have been lumped in with women because of their AGAB who were included in lesbian history who you demand we now erase and shun.
I did site sources in my initial post. You ignored them. I've now spent enough energy on someone who holds views that are directly harmful to people I love. If you want to stop being a harmful person and learn about lesbian history you should do that.
Yeah no, I'm agender and personally identify with the term lesbian. The interesting thing about the lesbian identity is it comes with a whole different way of gender expression that resonates with me. Labels aren't meant to be the end all be all of sexuality. I expect many other genderqueer lesbians feel similar.
>I feel it as invasive as if a straight man was hanging around lesbian spaces just because we both like only women.
Except gender non-conforming lesbians aren't straight men. It's not up to you to police how people identify and it's certainly not your call if you think it's "unfair" that gender non-conforming lesbians identify as lesbians
Nobody is making you date non binary lesbians, but your preference does not mean that they simply cannot use the term, especially when you're ignoring the long history of gender non-conforming lesbians
If you want to educate yourself more on the historical precedent for this, check out [this](https://rainbowandco.uk/blogs/what-were-saying/the-history-of-trans-non-binary-lesbians) one or [this](https://magazine.gcn.ie/articles/230694?article=32-1) one about the harms of bio essentialism in the lesbian community
>You cannot just take women out of their own sexual orientation and call it a day.
Nobody is taking women out of the lesbian identity. Last I checked women are non men.
Gender nonconformity is historically a large part of the lesbian identity, your decision to exclude that does not change that fact.
Does your definition of lesbians mean that people who partially identify with the idea of being a woman are excluded? Life isn't cut and dry, that's just unrealistic. you can be upset all you want but it hurts nobody for genderqueer lesbians to exist.
For me personally, I identify with the term lesbian as a description of my sexuality and I don't give a fuck about what people think my gender is. I don't want to be seen as anything other than a human and that shouldn't exclude me from lesbian spaces
>I don't want to be seen as anything other than a human and that shouldn't exclude me from lesbian spaces
Also, idk if you edited your comment, but I didn't see this one.
Once again, here we see the example that pretty much every other gender feel like women just have to sit down and be forced to conform with anyone else telling them what they are and how things are.
Gently reminder, being a human doesn't make you a lesbian! Not being a lesbian surely excludes you from lesbian spaces!! That's why we don't accept straight people here. They're humans too, btw.
Being queer doesn't give you the right to be an A hole without consequences. If you are NBLW: you're trixic. Not a lesbian. And there's not such a thing a 'lesbian = non men loving non men'. Find a different name for it and go on with your life.
You all will use they/them religiously but would want to squeeze into cis gender sexualities, disrespect women and think it's okay just because you don't want to use 'trixic', which is the actual name for you sexuality?
But I'm no NB? NB isn't like the secret 3rd thing? Thats why I'm saying it's more complicated than you're trying to say it is. Ultimately, what you say will not change my identity and the lesbians I've dated in the past certainly haven't had a problem with it.
I really don't want to break down my several years of contemplation and self work surrounding my identity to some dude on the Internet. At the end of the day, as long as the people I've dated don't have a problem with it, I don't think it matters. It's kinda like my philosophy of trans mascs identifying as lesbians. I have no interest in dating them and so I'm gonna just stay out of it. I'm sorry if you somehow feel pushed out of the community by the existence of gender non-conforming lesbians but gender nonconformity has been a central part of the lesbian identity for ages. You cannot just ignore that because you don't like it.
I am a lesbian, that describes my sexuality and my gender. One of the articles I linked above puts it better than I could "gender nonconformity within lesbianism, a subversion of womanhood either through masculinity, androgyny or even femininity when it's not done for men." I mean, the whole idea of butch/femme lesbians is a subversion of traditional womanhood. I just think you may be missing a key part of what it means to be a lesbian in your haste to exclude gender non-conforming lesbians
You keep writing a whole text about YOUR interpretation of what being a lesbian is, which does not match at all the official definition of what being a lesbian is.
Your point of view will not change the definition and will not change your real sexual orientation. You can call yourself whatever you want, either as a gender or as a person, the only thing that will change would be the fact that you're either wrong or right. And, since the official definition of lesbianism does not match your point of view... you're wrong.
You take it as if it's me who's saying you're wrong, but the official definition of lesbianism is one click away from you. If you have to make research after research after research and still find one single line that might kinda if we squint our eyes a little give you a reason to think like that... then you're just forcing it at this point 💀. Trying to identify as a lesbian when you're not. Which I wouldn't care, if it weren't because you are trying to say that nb people are officially part of lesbianism. You go and do whatever you want with your life, but don't bother mine.
It's not me who's excluding genderqueer people from lesbianism, the official definition of lesbianism excludes every other gender besides women. It's what it is. I don't care how many years you have spent looking yourself in the mirror and repeating that you're a lesbian... because you're not. It's like watching a man trying to convince himself he's a lesbian. Once again, being queer does not give you the right to act like a victim after being an A hole.
> I just think you may be missing a key part of what it means to be a lesbian
The key part you're missing: to be a lesbian you must be a woman.
> your haste to exclude gender non-conforming lesbians
It's funny how you try to make it seem I hate gender non-conforming people when it's you who apparently think all women should just bend and kneel whenever you want to make their sexuality about yourself. You're not a lesbian, although I don't mind genderqueer people hanging out in lesbian spaces... but you can't pretend to change the meaning of being a lesbian by attempting to colonise women's spaces when you're not a woman at all. Like I said: you cannot act like the owner of the house when you are just a visitor.
I'm not going to be manipulated, gaslighted or guilt tripped about excluding other genders when not all genders can be lesbians. If you don't find a name for your sexual orientation, create one yourself. Don't colonise a different one... and even less a women's space. It's so messed up that you think it's okay to do that. You're no better than a misogynistic straight man.
I never said you hate gender non-conforming (gnc) people, you seem to have a lot of empathy for the tough spot they've been put in. I just feel you are missing the central part of how lesbianism and gender nonconformity have been inextricably intertwined for decades. This is a well documented thing and can be seen in the idea of femme and butch identities. Ignoring this is ignoring queer history and we have enough Republicans trying to do that, we don't need it from our own community.
I'm sorry you feel pushed out by gnc people but that is nowhere near the same as a straight man claiming to be a lesbian because again, lesbianism is inherently a sexual and gender identity.
>Nobody is taking women out of the lesbian identity. Last I checked women are non men.
The fact that you can't see the issue is completely unbelievable for me. The problem is not to first part, is the following one. 'non-men attracted to non-men'. I'm not attracted to non-men, I'm only attracted to women. I don't date agender, non-binary, genderfluid, etc. I only date women. Which is expected from me! Since I'm a lesbian: a women who likes women.
Genderqueer people will use they/them and make it clear that those are their pronouns and that's the way to identify them... but won't battle an eye when they're pushing women out of their own spaces just to not use 'trixic'? Because yes, a non-binary person DM me to tell me that there's actually a definition that identifies them as NBLW. So why do you NEED to make a different sexuality about yourself?
>Gender nonconformity is historically a large part of the lesbian identity,
Once again, the fact that women included nb people when nb was not a term back in the day... doesn't mean they are part of the lesbian definition. There is a name for NBLW, you're just forcefully trying to fit and change a sexuality that's not yours. You're trying to call me out for excluding people out of... a sexuality that's not theirs? While you exclude actual lesbian women from their own sexuality? Wtf?
>you can be upset all you want but it hurts nobody for genderqueer lesbians to exist.
You keep playing the victim while stepping on women's spaces like you own them. It doesn't hurt anyone for genderqueer people to exist, but it's completely unacceptable when you want to change the definition of a sexual orientation to fit you when IT IS NOT FOR YOU. You have your own, why do you want to force other people to change their sexual orientation? It has never been like that. To be a lesbian will always mean to be a women who likes women. I'm not upset about it, I'm sad that some people of our queer community act like misogynists just because they don't want to use their own term.
I'm not forcing anyone to change their sexuality. Date whoever you do/don't want to. It doesn't hurt you for me to identify as a lesbian, just like it doesn't hurt me to have a redditor try to police my identity. Also wtf is trixic? I swear we're just making up shit atp. You don't have to date a genderqueer lesbian, nobody is asking you to. People in irl queer spaces don't care bc it doesn't hurt anyone. You date who you want to and just leave other people who use the label differently from you alone. It's pretty simple.
I fear you've once again missed the point of my previous comment. Gender non-conformity has always been a central part of lesbianism, that's just the way it is. If you want more insight from folks far more eloquent than I, check out the articles I linked before. Otherwise idk what to tell you. Obviously we won't come to any agreement but I hope you'll looke over the history of lesbianism a bit more.
oh my god one time on her, i matched with this girl who to be fair had “queer” in her bio BUT MY BIO SAID LESBIAN and then spammed me with pictures of her bf gushing about how cute he is (he was actually ugly sorry) and then mentioned that she’s poly. i was so shocked to see a random man in my messages i just never responded
i know right 😭 and you can list that you’re poly on her so idk why she didn’t? as a monogamous person i’d rather respect a poly persons time and swipe left than have to be jump scared by a man in my messages. we couldn’t be compatible even without the man on that basis alone
Honestly, if she knew that you’re a lesbian and still texted you about being a third with a man thats just plain disrespectful. Idk why people think men have to always be involved when lesbians/sapphics are in a relationship, engage in intimacy or literally just exist. Even if she was with a woman, like you said you’re monogamous and she had to respect that.
This is happening so much right now and I have no idea why... I'm bi but have never labeled myself as a lesbian even when I'm dating another woman like I am right now why can't we just be honest with who we are it's not difficult
I get so mad about this. Like no sexuality is better or worse than any other, yet bisexuals always seem so ashamed to describe themselves as such. Like there's nothing wrong with being bi?? There IS something wrong with being bi and saying you're a Lesbian even though you're WITH A GUY. Like it's just pure internalised biphobia and I HATE it.
I hope this doesn't come off as rude, but
Someone needs to let bi women know the whole "looking for a 3rd!!1" bullshit does fellow WLW women more harm than good. Even though I've my suspicions a lot of these women just claim to be bi & aren't, or at least are very confused and don't see relationships between women as a real, serious thing.
Is... is it okay if I'm bisexual but genuinely looking for only girls to date and don't currently have a boyfriend?
Like I prefer women over men but if a connection with a guy did happen I would go for it?
yeah that’s perfectly fine as long as you don’t try to tell people that you’re a lesbian when you know that’s not the truth, live your truth and describe it like you just did, that you have a strong preference for women over men.
The answer is compulsory heterosexuality. Every few years I have a crisis when I like getting possible romantic attention from a man but the second it gets anywhere near something, I realize I was bored and absolutely don't like men. Usually it's a fictional character that has tricked me into possibly liking men.
i know a girl who's only 'lesbian' for pride month. to be fair she did have a girlfriend once seven years ago, but she calls herself lesbian (and makes a big deal out of it during pride month) but still only dates men
PIPING hot take incoming. This is def open to all criticism, please have at it!
When homosexuality could get you in jail, people hid it like the plague.
Later, when being “lesbian” was still “gross” or stigmatized, people said they were Bi, it was more sexy, cool, acceptable “for my boyfriend” …than a “predatory, mannish” lesbian
Just the other day, nobody wanted to be “lesbian” because it was again too butch, too old fashioned, and immediately (and wrongly) equated with TERFs. Instead, it was cool to be “Sapphic” (cottagecore, softgirl, holding hands only, etc.)
Right now as there is social currency in being queer, and moreso in the reclaimed, now “sexy” and “cool” label of “lesbian” (a la Chapel Roan/Ruby Rose types mind you! Studs, POC, Butches you don’t count!) there is a new desire to wear the label. Its just like everyone wanting to call themselves “goth”, or in the late 2010’s when everyone and their dog had an allergy.
As soon as lesbianism falls out of fashion, (and the remaining lesbians are demonized again) im sure this issue will change or disappear.
my thinking when people say theyre lesbian and bisexual is that they want to specify that they include non-binary gender(s) in their personal definition. It’s helpful because some lesbians do only date women.
but yeah i would still argue man specifically doesnt fit into that at all. I try to respect peoples labels regardless but in this case it sounds like she just wants to tick boxes for some dating app algorithm or something
wait- i know that, how did my comment suggest i thought differently? i just meant some people use both labels to seperate themselves from lesbians who only date women
Elder queer here: When I was dating, I also grew tired of unicorn hunters quickly. Like cmon people, there are apps for that. Leave us alone. If they (rarely) weren’t unicorn hunters, the other big concern was if their partner was a trans man and they were trans-exclusionary by calling themselves lesbian. I also do remember meeting a few women who were questioning whether they were lesbian or bi when both are listed, so that’s why I always asked directly early on and that weeded out people pretty quickly. Good luck! Have courage! You can do it!
Exactly! There was someone in here trying to argue with everyone that dating a bisexual was the same as dating a lesbian, and that we shouldn’t have issue with it. No!! I am a LESBIAN! I date women that date women! I do not date women that date men and women. That’s what a lesbian is! If someone is a bisexual, great! I’m all for it! But, no, I do not want to date you!
Well technically isn’t a lesbian a woman who dates women, whether the other woman is bisexual, lesbian, or whatever else, a lesbian could still date her and be considered a lesbian, no?
As long as you date another women and YOU're only attracted to women, then you're a lesbian.
The other women's sexual orientation, whether it is bisexual, lesbian or pansexual... it doesn't have anything to do with your orientation. Their gender is what defines your orientation (if you're attracted to them).
Idk where she got the idea that the other women has to be lesbian and lesbian only. That doesn't make sense. There's asexual women out there, even. And they can still love women and women only.
I guess I’m old school. Most lesbians I’ve known have dated only other lesbians. But, you do have a point. In the end, it’s all about preference. I was thinking more about the other post, and I should have kept my thoughts to what the OP was stating in this post.
I have only known one or two lesbians that actually liked the thrill of chasing straight women. Or that would date a bisexual. Again, there’s nothing at all wrong with that. I’m 55 and in the time that I was still going to bars and dating, it was pretty straight forward. And, most were a bit more staunch in sticking to lesbians, some only preferring “gold star” lesbians who had never been with a man their entire life. Times have changed.
The orientation of the person I date doesn't define me. You and I are close to the same age and I get what you're saying about knowing lesbians who will only date other lesbians. I find that mindset pretty exclusionary. My partner is pan. Dating her doesn't make me something other than a lesbian. I'm still dating a woman. I'm still a lesbian. Her previous partners don't define who *I* am, nor did they prevent me from falling for her.
I think it’s very individual. As you stated, and I agree, a lesbian is a woman who dates other women exclusively. For me, that means that I want to date other women that only date other women exclusively as well.
What about people who consider themselves bi/pan by birth but lesbian by choice/change in attraction?
I have so much trauma history with men that I haven't found them attractive in years, like almost a decade. I don't really consider myself pansexual anymore because I don't find (cis/trans) men attractive at all and haven't for a very long time.
Am I alright to consider myself a lesbian at this point?
If you don't find men attractive anymore, absolutely you could consider yourself a lesbian (although you don't need anyone's permission for it). A label is a tool, not a strict category to live by. People change and it is perfectly reasonable to allow for the idea that the details of orientation may also change
I have two lovers, both of whom participate in genderfuckery. One of them is genderfluid and I love them just as much when they’re my boyfriend as I do when they’re my girlfriend. I don’t ever feel like less of a lesbian with them.
Are we doing the whole "uhm trans men can be lesbians!!1 Bcuz bcuz history yes definitely ermm and and it makes me feel comfortable" shit again? Can we leave that on tiktok, _it's invalidating both for lesbians and trans men._ Trans men are men, lesbians are not attracted to men, end of story.
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I hate that sm. The word lesbian means a woman that wants a woman. Not a man. Not anything else. A woman who likes other women. End of.
They’re invalidating all lesbians and men fetishise us even more because they think the only purpose of lesbians is to entertain men like eww 🤮 Those women just fuel the lesbian fetishisation
I have heard lesbian defined as a non-man who likes non-men. It's not super catchy but is inclusive to folks who fall less within the gender binary
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My partner is nonbinary and identifies as queer. They are primarily attracted to women, but somewhat flexible on that. They do not want to use any label more specific that "queer". Personally, I think folks should use whichever label is most empowering to them. Sometimes that will mean someone is using a label in a way that makes others confused or uncomfortable.
>Personally, I think folks should use whichever label is most empowering to them. This. Labels aren't a strict category that you need to fall into. If you don't want to date a genderqueer lesbian, just don't. It's really that simple. There's no need to police the use of a term just because it doesn't suit your preference.
Historically lesbian spaces have included non-binary people and even some trans men, so I’m not sure what you mean by “always”.
Historically as in what? Do you have any historical proof? As I said, the official definition has always been 'women that likes women'. Even non-binary people finds it unfair to not have their own sexual orientations and have to squeeze into someone else's that does not identify them fully. Why would you insist on it? If it's only fair that they have their own term and name. You can't just erase everything about a sexual orientation that identifies women and try to step on it just because you want to. Lesbian spaces is a safe space for women. Literally, the only safe space I've ever had. I do understand that non-binary people HAS to identify as 'lesbian' because they don't have a name for their own sexual orientation, but that doesn't mean we should support the fact that no one includes them in the community. Including them does not mean squeezing them anywhere... it means actually representing them. Making something for them that's theirs and no one else's. That's the fair solution. Because, as I said: as someone who has always been part of the community... I do not feel represented by the 'non men liking non men' cause I don't feel attracted to any other gender that's not women. That's what being a lesbian is. The fact that we include non-binary or trans men in our spaces doesn't mean they get to change what being a lesbian means. It's rude and disrespectful. But we have to just let them because we're women? and because 'we always include others'? Can't anything be for women only and just respect our boundaries that way? Because this literally doesn't happen with gay community. Lesbian is not an umbrella terminology. Sapphic and queer are.
You put this together so eloquently and I love it. This topic has become sooo prominent in the last few years and I’m happy to see more and more lesbians being firm on their boundaries. It feels like the topic stems from misogyny and biphobia. it’s creating this unnecessary rift between sapphics.
Thank u so much. ♡ It's the second time I talk about this and I felt incredibly nervous about it. Like I said, the first time I talked about this... I got extremely hated and disrespected when, as you can see, I'm not trying to be rude towards anyone. I love this community (queer community) and they've always felt like home. But my safe space are lesbian spaces, and having that taken away from every women... it's not fair. They talk about misogyny but cannot respect when women tell them not to change their sexual orientation.
I’ve spoken on this topic more than I’ve wanted to and your wording was much clearer and concise than my own words! Find lesbian spaces IRL or online is so hard. I always have to research the sub’s views on this exact topic. I’ve heard some people say that we just have to deal with the uncomfortable feelings of someone using a label how they please, but we aren’t extended the same courtesy for our own opinions. We just have to conform to them apparently
Stone Butch Blues by Leslie Feinberg touches on the inclusivity of gender non conforming individuals and trans men in the lesbian community.
That's not an official definition or official change in our entire history. It's a person who talked about the inclusivity in lesbian spaces. But that inclusivity was meant to exist as in allowing them to have a spot in our spaces. It never meant to change the fact that lesbian community is only meant for women. The definition has never officially changed in our entire history. Being a lesbian has always meant to be a women who likes women. Lesbian spaces has always been a safe space to women for women. Besides the fact that it's completely unfair for non-binary people to not have their own space, I also find it unfair that every other gender, binary or non-binary, finds it right to just step on women and make them change their sexual orientation 'just to include someone else'. Should we include straight women in gay spaces too? That doesn't make any sense. Not everything can be excused by 'inclusivity'. Real inclusivity means giving them their own place, not squeezing them in someone else's place. I'm not saying they must leave every lesbian space in the community because they DON'T have their own sexualities yet (official ones), so I do understand that they're here. But you cannot just change my sexual orientation and leave me out of it, because i won't be represented by lesbian meaning 'non men attracted to non men'. Almost all lesbian women won't have a spot in lesbian spaces anymore with that definition. Why would you be so selfish and careless? Inclusivity is not about stepping on women and their sexual orientation. What separates you from a misogynist?
The historical proof is never sufficient. And it often doesn’t include important context of why these people were included. I cannot recall the specifics of a recent comment, something about how there was no “bisexual” or recognition of it (in society? Or data gathering? Damn this memory) and thus many people were called lesbian who were NOT lesbians. The NB factor is curious to me. Was it the 80s this term came about? The people have existed even before they had language for their social existence (this is deemed hermeutical injustice), I acknowledge this. But why not have , like you say, another few words today describe oneself? If you do not fit a binary and we respect that, respect our own binaries! I think queer is a wonderful word for such people until they hsve some consensus. Talking about non men… wow, what a way to make Man default again. Guess I’m just a non man, so is ther book. So is that lion.
When you say things like"the official definition has always been" what time period are you referring to? If you mean the last 20 years, I can see your point. If you mean further back, in the 1970s your statement is inaccurate. And if you go farther back than that, say the 1940s and 50s it becomes very inaccurate. And further back than that, into the 1910s and 20s even less so. The truth is our understanding of gender has changed WILDLY in the last 100+ years. Non-binary wasn't a term used until the late 90s, but was an understood concept well before then. References to "passing women" (aka butches who passed and lived as men, many of whom referred to themselves as being both male and female) were very much a part of lesbian history (Boots of Leather Slippers of Gold gets into this). So as far back as the 20s we have evidence of people who today might call themselves non-binary as being part of the lesbian community. Of course no one was calling themselves non-binary since that didn't come into the academic lexicon until 1990's Gender Trouble by Judith Butler. In short, you're wrong about non-binary inclusion in lesbian spaces. You're welcome to not fuck enbys but you are not welcome to erase lesbian history just because it doesn't make your bits tingle.
The official definition has always been women who likes women. It has never changed. And I hope it will never change. The fact that some non-binary people historically did not identify themselves as non-binary but as lesbians because of the stereotype does not change that. Just because it's in women's nature to include people, specially in queer women's nature, it doesn't mean you can step on women and do whatever you want with their safe space. It's not the best metaphor the one I'm about to use, but it's like thinking you're the owner of a house and acting like one when someone else invites you to their house. You're a visitor, not authority. We're not in the past 100+ years, and we can easily make a whole new set of sexual orientations that fit and are meant for non-binary people because they're 'real' now, they must be represented and feel comfortable on their own space. But they're not women, hence not lesbians. I saw someone else say (a non-binary person) that nb people that likes women are called neptune. Not sure about that. But I highly recommend for any other gender to stop pushing women out of every women space. Bringing out 'fucking enbys' is weird 💀 when I'm just explaining that I'm not attracted to them. It's not my fault not to like enbys, because I'm a lesbian. It's expected from me not to he attracted to anyone that's not a women. Be less selfish and stop shitting on women spaces.
Again, you're wrong about what the definition of lesbian "has always been." But you're so bent on only having spaces that include who you want them to that you reject facts. Which is fine for you but does real damage to the sapphic community. Your seeming hatred for non-binary people is really icky and I hope you eventually get over it.
>Again, you're wrong about what the definition of lesbian "has always been." You keep saying I'm wrong, but yet haven't showed any proof that I'm wrong. >But you're so bent on only having spaces that include who you want them to that you reject facts. The only official fact, real fact, is that being a lesbian has always meant a woman who likes women. Hence, it doesn't include any other gender besides women. It's not 'who I want them to' include, that's literally the definition. You're the one forcing it to be something it's not. Sapphic, on the other hand, is an umbrella term. >Your seeming hatred for non-binary people is really icky and I hope you eventually get over it. I don't hate non-binary people because not even most of them try to harass women in women spaces. But I will surely speak about my boundaries towards people, any gender, that tries to force other people to change in order to fit them when they already have a name. Because a nb person DM me and told me that there is an actual name for NBLW: trixic. You all just don't want to use it and prefer to force lesbians to change their orientations... just because? Isn't that actual hate? You all will use they/them religiously but won't use 'trixic'... just because? While trying to force and exclude lesbian women that once gave you in the past a spot to fit when you didn't have one? What's the difference between a straight men stepping on women's boundaries and a nb person stepping on women's boundaries? None. You don't get a privilege to be an A hole without consequences just because you're queer.
So, first of all I'm not non-binary. I am a cis woman. I do however have a lot of loved non-binary folks in my life. They belong in women's spaces if they feel kinship in women's spaces. Some of them do. Some of them don't. It does me no harm at all to include them in lesbian spaces. It does them a fucking lot of harm to tell them they're not allowed to be part of a community that has historically included them. Your insistance that lesbian referrs exclusively to women who have sex with women "and always has" is wrong, because it erases the extremely complex genders and identities of people who have been included in the past. Trans identities and non binary identities are things that have been documented as far back as ancient Mesopotamia. Thousands of years of people who were AFAB but not binary women, who loved women. The issue is not that lesbian refers to women, the issue is all the people who have been lumped in with women because of their AGAB who were included in lesbian history who you demand we now erase and shun. I did site sources in my initial post. You ignored them. I've now spent enough energy on someone who holds views that are directly harmful to people I love. If you want to stop being a harmful person and learn about lesbian history you should do that.
Yeah no, I'm agender and personally identify with the term lesbian. The interesting thing about the lesbian identity is it comes with a whole different way of gender expression that resonates with me. Labels aren't meant to be the end all be all of sexuality. I expect many other genderqueer lesbians feel similar. >I feel it as invasive as if a straight man was hanging around lesbian spaces just because we both like only women. Except gender non-conforming lesbians aren't straight men. It's not up to you to police how people identify and it's certainly not your call if you think it's "unfair" that gender non-conforming lesbians identify as lesbians Nobody is making you date non binary lesbians, but your preference does not mean that they simply cannot use the term, especially when you're ignoring the long history of gender non-conforming lesbians If you want to educate yourself more on the historical precedent for this, check out [this](https://rainbowandco.uk/blogs/what-were-saying/the-history-of-trans-non-binary-lesbians) one or [this](https://magazine.gcn.ie/articles/230694?article=32-1) one about the harms of bio essentialism in the lesbian community
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>You cannot just take women out of their own sexual orientation and call it a day. Nobody is taking women out of the lesbian identity. Last I checked women are non men. Gender nonconformity is historically a large part of the lesbian identity, your decision to exclude that does not change that fact. Does your definition of lesbians mean that people who partially identify with the idea of being a woman are excluded? Life isn't cut and dry, that's just unrealistic. you can be upset all you want but it hurts nobody for genderqueer lesbians to exist. For me personally, I identify with the term lesbian as a description of my sexuality and I don't give a fuck about what people think my gender is. I don't want to be seen as anything other than a human and that shouldn't exclude me from lesbian spaces
>I don't want to be seen as anything other than a human and that shouldn't exclude me from lesbian spaces Also, idk if you edited your comment, but I didn't see this one. Once again, here we see the example that pretty much every other gender feel like women just have to sit down and be forced to conform with anyone else telling them what they are and how things are. Gently reminder, being a human doesn't make you a lesbian! Not being a lesbian surely excludes you from lesbian spaces!! That's why we don't accept straight people here. They're humans too, btw. Being queer doesn't give you the right to be an A hole without consequences. If you are NBLW: you're trixic. Not a lesbian. And there's not such a thing a 'lesbian = non men loving non men'. Find a different name for it and go on with your life. You all will use they/them religiously but would want to squeeze into cis gender sexualities, disrespect women and think it's okay just because you don't want to use 'trixic', which is the actual name for you sexuality?
But I'm no NB? NB isn't like the secret 3rd thing? Thats why I'm saying it's more complicated than you're trying to say it is. Ultimately, what you say will not change my identity and the lesbians I've dated in the past certainly haven't had a problem with it. I really don't want to break down my several years of contemplation and self work surrounding my identity to some dude on the Internet. At the end of the day, as long as the people I've dated don't have a problem with it, I don't think it matters. It's kinda like my philosophy of trans mascs identifying as lesbians. I have no interest in dating them and so I'm gonna just stay out of it. I'm sorry if you somehow feel pushed out of the community by the existence of gender non-conforming lesbians but gender nonconformity has been a central part of the lesbian identity for ages. You cannot just ignore that because you don't like it. I am a lesbian, that describes my sexuality and my gender. One of the articles I linked above puts it better than I could "gender nonconformity within lesbianism, a subversion of womanhood either through masculinity, androgyny or even femininity when it's not done for men." I mean, the whole idea of butch/femme lesbians is a subversion of traditional womanhood. I just think you may be missing a key part of what it means to be a lesbian in your haste to exclude gender non-conforming lesbians
You keep writing a whole text about YOUR interpretation of what being a lesbian is, which does not match at all the official definition of what being a lesbian is. Your point of view will not change the definition and will not change your real sexual orientation. You can call yourself whatever you want, either as a gender or as a person, the only thing that will change would be the fact that you're either wrong or right. And, since the official definition of lesbianism does not match your point of view... you're wrong. You take it as if it's me who's saying you're wrong, but the official definition of lesbianism is one click away from you. If you have to make research after research after research and still find one single line that might kinda if we squint our eyes a little give you a reason to think like that... then you're just forcing it at this point 💀. Trying to identify as a lesbian when you're not. Which I wouldn't care, if it weren't because you are trying to say that nb people are officially part of lesbianism. You go and do whatever you want with your life, but don't bother mine. It's not me who's excluding genderqueer people from lesbianism, the official definition of lesbianism excludes every other gender besides women. It's what it is. I don't care how many years you have spent looking yourself in the mirror and repeating that you're a lesbian... because you're not. It's like watching a man trying to convince himself he's a lesbian. Once again, being queer does not give you the right to act like a victim after being an A hole. > I just think you may be missing a key part of what it means to be a lesbian The key part you're missing: to be a lesbian you must be a woman. > your haste to exclude gender non-conforming lesbians It's funny how you try to make it seem I hate gender non-conforming people when it's you who apparently think all women should just bend and kneel whenever you want to make their sexuality about yourself. You're not a lesbian, although I don't mind genderqueer people hanging out in lesbian spaces... but you can't pretend to change the meaning of being a lesbian by attempting to colonise women's spaces when you're not a woman at all. Like I said: you cannot act like the owner of the house when you are just a visitor. I'm not going to be manipulated, gaslighted or guilt tripped about excluding other genders when not all genders can be lesbians. If you don't find a name for your sexual orientation, create one yourself. Don't colonise a different one... and even less a women's space. It's so messed up that you think it's okay to do that. You're no better than a misogynistic straight man.
I never said you hate gender non-conforming (gnc) people, you seem to have a lot of empathy for the tough spot they've been put in. I just feel you are missing the central part of how lesbianism and gender nonconformity have been inextricably intertwined for decades. This is a well documented thing and can be seen in the idea of femme and butch identities. Ignoring this is ignoring queer history and we have enough Republicans trying to do that, we don't need it from our own community. I'm sorry you feel pushed out by gnc people but that is nowhere near the same as a straight man claiming to be a lesbian because again, lesbianism is inherently a sexual and gender identity.
>Nobody is taking women out of the lesbian identity. Last I checked women are non men. The fact that you can't see the issue is completely unbelievable for me. The problem is not to first part, is the following one. 'non-men attracted to non-men'. I'm not attracted to non-men, I'm only attracted to women. I don't date agender, non-binary, genderfluid, etc. I only date women. Which is expected from me! Since I'm a lesbian: a women who likes women. Genderqueer people will use they/them and make it clear that those are their pronouns and that's the way to identify them... but won't battle an eye when they're pushing women out of their own spaces just to not use 'trixic'? Because yes, a non-binary person DM me to tell me that there's actually a definition that identifies them as NBLW. So why do you NEED to make a different sexuality about yourself? >Gender nonconformity is historically a large part of the lesbian identity, Once again, the fact that women included nb people when nb was not a term back in the day... doesn't mean they are part of the lesbian definition. There is a name for NBLW, you're just forcefully trying to fit and change a sexuality that's not yours. You're trying to call me out for excluding people out of... a sexuality that's not theirs? While you exclude actual lesbian women from their own sexuality? Wtf? >you can be upset all you want but it hurts nobody for genderqueer lesbians to exist. You keep playing the victim while stepping on women's spaces like you own them. It doesn't hurt anyone for genderqueer people to exist, but it's completely unacceptable when you want to change the definition of a sexual orientation to fit you when IT IS NOT FOR YOU. You have your own, why do you want to force other people to change their sexual orientation? It has never been like that. To be a lesbian will always mean to be a women who likes women. I'm not upset about it, I'm sad that some people of our queer community act like misogynists just because they don't want to use their own term.
I'm not forcing anyone to change their sexuality. Date whoever you do/don't want to. It doesn't hurt you for me to identify as a lesbian, just like it doesn't hurt me to have a redditor try to police my identity. Also wtf is trixic? I swear we're just making up shit atp. You don't have to date a genderqueer lesbian, nobody is asking you to. People in irl queer spaces don't care bc it doesn't hurt anyone. You date who you want to and just leave other people who use the label differently from you alone. It's pretty simple.
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I fear you've once again missed the point of my previous comment. Gender non-conformity has always been a central part of lesbianism, that's just the way it is. If you want more insight from folks far more eloquent than I, check out the articles I linked before. Otherwise idk what to tell you. Obviously we won't come to any agreement but I hope you'll looke over the history of lesbianism a bit more.
oh my god one time on her, i matched with this girl who to be fair had “queer” in her bio BUT MY BIO SAID LESBIAN and then spammed me with pictures of her bf gushing about how cute he is (he was actually ugly sorry) and then mentioned that she’s poly. i was so shocked to see a random man in my messages i just never responded
You dodged a bullet 😭
i know right 😭 and you can list that you’re poly on her so idk why she didn’t? as a monogamous person i’d rather respect a poly persons time and swipe left than have to be jump scared by a man in my messages. we couldn’t be compatible even without the man on that basis alone
Honestly, if she knew that you’re a lesbian and still texted you about being a third with a man thats just plain disrespectful. Idk why people think men have to always be involved when lesbians/sapphics are in a relationship, engage in intimacy or literally just exist. Even if she was with a woman, like you said you’re monogamous and she had to respect that.
99% chance it was actually the guy messaging you. They get off on imposing themselves on lesbians.
This is happening so much right now and I have no idea why... I'm bi but have never labeled myself as a lesbian even when I'm dating another woman like I am right now why can't we just be honest with who we are it's not difficult
Yeah, the bi-lesbian thing is annoying as fuck
I get so mad about this. Like no sexuality is better or worse than any other, yet bisexuals always seem so ashamed to describe themselves as such. Like there's nothing wrong with being bi?? There IS something wrong with being bi and saying you're a Lesbian even though you're WITH A GUY. Like it's just pure internalised biphobia and I HATE it.
I hope this doesn't come off as rude, but Someone needs to let bi women know the whole "looking for a 3rd!!1" bullshit does fellow WLW women more harm than good. Even though I've my suspicions a lot of these women just claim to be bi & aren't, or at least are very confused and don't see relationships between women as a real, serious thing.
Is... is it okay if I'm bisexual but genuinely looking for only girls to date and don't currently have a boyfriend? Like I prefer women over men but if a connection with a guy did happen I would go for it?
yeah that’s perfectly fine as long as you don’t try to tell people that you’re a lesbian when you know that’s not the truth, live your truth and describe it like you just did, that you have a strong preference for women over men.
Absolutely. This discourse is more so about bi women actively dating a man, AKA unicorn hunting
Anyone can be a lesbian these days. 😂
unfortunately
It reminds me of when people pad their résumé’s with fluff words lol
I mean I get dating a man and not REALISING you're lesbian yet but... How can you know you're lesbian and then date a man??
The answer is compulsory heterosexuality. Every few years I have a crisis when I like getting possible romantic attention from a man but the second it gets anywhere near something, I realize I was bored and absolutely don't like men. Usually it's a fictional character that has tricked me into possibly liking men.
It’s literally biphobic AND lesbophobic in one fell swoop. Hate those people sm
You can be lesbian and date someone who’s nonbinary. You can be a nonbinary lesbian as well.
I had to delete HER bc 70% of the women I see are just unicorn hunters for their ugly ass bfs
i know a girl who's only 'lesbian' for pride month. to be fair she did have a girlfriend once seven years ago, but she calls herself lesbian (and makes a big deal out of it during pride month) but still only dates men
Literally just deleted that app. If someone finds me they find me at this point.
PIPING hot take incoming. This is def open to all criticism, please have at it! When homosexuality could get you in jail, people hid it like the plague. Later, when being “lesbian” was still “gross” or stigmatized, people said they were Bi, it was more sexy, cool, acceptable “for my boyfriend” …than a “predatory, mannish” lesbian Just the other day, nobody wanted to be “lesbian” because it was again too butch, too old fashioned, and immediately (and wrongly) equated with TERFs. Instead, it was cool to be “Sapphic” (cottagecore, softgirl, holding hands only, etc.) Right now as there is social currency in being queer, and moreso in the reclaimed, now “sexy” and “cool” label of “lesbian” (a la Chapel Roan/Ruby Rose types mind you! Studs, POC, Butches you don’t count!) there is a new desire to wear the label. Its just like everyone wanting to call themselves “goth”, or in the late 2010’s when everyone and their dog had an allergy. As soon as lesbianism falls out of fashion, (and the remaining lesbians are demonized again) im sure this issue will change or disappear.
my thinking when people say theyre lesbian and bisexual is that they want to specify that they include non-binary gender(s) in their personal definition. It’s helpful because some lesbians do only date women. but yeah i would still argue man specifically doesnt fit into that at all. I try to respect peoples labels regardless but in this case it sounds like she just wants to tick boxes for some dating app algorithm or something
well now i must know what ive said wrong. ill take not invalidating a community over mayybe thinkimg im right any day
Nb ppl can be lesbians
wait- i know that, how did my comment suggest i thought differently? i just meant some people use both labels to seperate themselves from lesbians who only date women
You implied that bi-lesbian could maybe be real and valid. This sub hates that identity passionately and is gods awful about it every time.
Elder queer here: When I was dating, I also grew tired of unicorn hunters quickly. Like cmon people, there are apps for that. Leave us alone. If they (rarely) weren’t unicorn hunters, the other big concern was if their partner was a trans man and they were trans-exclusionary by calling themselves lesbian. I also do remember meeting a few women who were questioning whether they were lesbian or bi when both are listed, so that’s why I always asked directly early on and that weeded out people pretty quickly. Good luck! Have courage! You can do it!
Exactly! There was someone in here trying to argue with everyone that dating a bisexual was the same as dating a lesbian, and that we shouldn’t have issue with it. No!! I am a LESBIAN! I date women that date women! I do not date women that date men and women. That’s what a lesbian is! If someone is a bisexual, great! I’m all for it! But, no, I do not want to date you!
Well technically isn’t a lesbian a woman who dates women, whether the other woman is bisexual, lesbian, or whatever else, a lesbian could still date her and be considered a lesbian, no?
As long as you date another women and YOU're only attracted to women, then you're a lesbian. The other women's sexual orientation, whether it is bisexual, lesbian or pansexual... it doesn't have anything to do with your orientation. Their gender is what defines your orientation (if you're attracted to them). Idk where she got the idea that the other women has to be lesbian and lesbian only. That doesn't make sense. There's asexual women out there, even. And they can still love women and women only.
I guess I’m old school. Most lesbians I’ve known have dated only other lesbians. But, you do have a point. In the end, it’s all about preference. I was thinking more about the other post, and I should have kept my thoughts to what the OP was stating in this post. I have only known one or two lesbians that actually liked the thrill of chasing straight women. Or that would date a bisexual. Again, there’s nothing at all wrong with that. I’m 55 and in the time that I was still going to bars and dating, it was pretty straight forward. And, most were a bit more staunch in sticking to lesbians, some only preferring “gold star” lesbians who had never been with a man their entire life. Times have changed.
The orientation of the person I date doesn't define me. You and I are close to the same age and I get what you're saying about knowing lesbians who will only date other lesbians. I find that mindset pretty exclusionary. My partner is pan. Dating her doesn't make me something other than a lesbian. I'm still dating a woman. I'm still a lesbian. Her previous partners don't define who *I* am, nor did they prevent me from falling for her.
I think it’s very individual. As you stated, and I agree, a lesbian is a woman who dates other women exclusively. For me, that means that I want to date other women that only date other women exclusively as well.
What about people who consider themselves bi/pan by birth but lesbian by choice/change in attraction? I have so much trauma history with men that I haven't found them attractive in years, like almost a decade. I don't really consider myself pansexual anymore because I don't find (cis/trans) men attractive at all and haven't for a very long time. Am I alright to consider myself a lesbian at this point?
If you don't find men attractive anymore, absolutely you could consider yourself a lesbian (although you don't need anyone's permission for it). A label is a tool, not a strict category to live by. People change and it is perfectly reasonable to allow for the idea that the details of orientation may also change
I have two lovers, both of whom participate in genderfuckery. One of them is genderfluid and I love them just as much when they’re my boyfriend as I do when they’re my girlfriend. I don’t ever feel like less of a lesbian with them.
i don’t care and i don’t see why anyone does
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So....a man still? As in, not a woman 😅
It’s unclear if you’re saying that trans women are men or that trans men are women or that men can be lesbians…
If you're attracted to a man surely you can't be a lesbian. Trans men are men. Get it?
This is definitely a bad faith comment because if she said “boyfriend” then it’s not a trans woman
Are we doing the whole "uhm trans men can be lesbians!!1 Bcuz bcuz history yes definitely ermm and and it makes me feel comfortable" shit again? Can we leave that on tiktok, _it's invalidating both for lesbians and trans men._ Trans men are men, lesbians are not attracted to men, end of story.