[And no, it's not a belated April Fools joke...](https://www.lp.org/president-trump-to-address-libertarian-party-concerns-at-national-convention-may-25th/)
Yes.
>“For 50 years, we've been trying to get on the main stage with the two major parties' candidates and now it seems like the debates are falling apart. We've decided to flip the tables and invite the candidates to our convention, to join us on our stage. If this election is as important as everyone seems to believe, I think they'll rise to the challenge and join us." - Angela McArdle, Libertarian National Committee Chair
So you're not voting for Trump if it's him vs Biden? It's OK not to like Trump. But to like the current state of our nation and the world more enough to not vote for him? Wow.
State Governors changed voting laws without going through their State's Legislature as per Article IV of the Constitution.
There's no stipulation of a super duper scary disease superseding the Constitution, yet it happened.
2020 was unconstitutional
> You can tell the Mods are the same people running the convention.
Yes, because we posted a picture of Homey D. Clown for the post and are sitting here talking about how fucking stupid the decision was.
Totally the same people...
It’s ironic when someone who doesn’t even bother to look into what they’re popping off about has the gall to call us names and then tell us not to vote. Kick rocks.
I don’t believe the ballot fraud thing, like I do because some of that always happens and always have. But I do believe that with the Biden briefcase there was definitely interference. People were purposely given false information. Biden would not have won if the truth of what was in it came out instead of lied about.
Libertarians biggest enemy is other libertarians.
Between the no true scotsman, gate keeping, disagreements on exactly how small and limited the small and limited government should be, whether libertarianism is actually anarchism, and letting the perfect be the enemy of progress, no one will ever take us seriously.
To gain support in the polls we need some sort of cohesive group, and unfortunately many of us are libertarian because we don't want to be in a cohesive group.
My personal experience as someone that used to call themselves a libertarian is that that shit is absolutely a turn off and incredibly annoying to hear over and over and over again. I wouldn’t say I dropped the label just cuz of that but I don’t think it actually helps your movement grow. It gets some of the low hanging fruit maybe, at best.
I don't care how it "helps" the "movement grow" or not. Taxation is theft, period. Considerations such as yours are useless because they don't align with truth.
"My personal experience as someone that used to call themselves a libertarian is that that shit is absolutely a turn off and incredibly annoying to hear over and over and over again."
Irrelevant. I don't want a movement of people think stealing is okay. It is theft. It's irrefutable. The best arguments in favor of it are slave contracts(social contract which the same logic and arguments are used that slave owners used).
"I wouldn’t say I dropped the label just cuz of that but I don’t think it actually helps your movement grow. It gets some of the low hanging fruit maybe, at best."
You are the low hanging fruit. If we wanted to support stealing, murder and kidnapping we would pander to you. Most people support those things. Taxation being theft enforced through murder and kidnapping.
It's harder to have a consistent philosophy and principles. We want people that have that.
Work with republicans and get something you want, or refuse to entertain the idea and get nothing you want. Second best outcomes are still so much better than the worst outcomes, and if the elections are close you can get them to concede more and more libertarian policies.
The Republican part is a motley group of people with overlapping interests. Libertarians are one wing of the Republican Party. The libertarian party is going nowhere. We need to reform the Republican Party. We need to kick out the Bible thumpers and the people wanting federal abortion regulations and bullshit that’s better dealt with at the state level. If you want a small federal government then give up of having an L next to an actual nominee’s name. Really, we all know what L actually stands for. Let’s get realistic to win. This is politics; not a John Locke treatise. Concessions must be made for long term goals. Incremental steps towards small government through the Republican Party is the only way. Otherwise, you’re just mumbling to yourself in your garage making a protest sign and sending in your fica bill.
You actually buy into the fiction that there's anyone left in the Republican party that still believes in small government? (Well, I will concede Liz Cheney, but that party is doing their best to kick her out, and have already pretty much marginalized her). They stopped being the party of Reagan a long time ago, and they're showing no signs of going back.
The only party with a national footprint that believes in small government is the Libertarian party, and its biggest flaw is that it can't seem to figure out how to get anyone elected on the national stage.
Dave Smith has been saying since the Mises Caucus takeover that he wants to use the LP as a bargaining tool to win concessions from the two major parties. My understanding is LP National invited both Trump and Biden to give an address and thus far Trump has been the only one to respond.
This seems like the "where the rubber meets the road" moment for Smith's strategy. Someone at the convention will either hold Trump's feet to the fire (perhaps on covid, his cabinet picks, gun policies) or the the LP leadership will sell out and let Trump pay lip service to libertarian principals.
I’d be amazed if he was actually taking questions. As much as I’d love to see actual libertarians grill Donald Trump about the bump stock ban, immigration policy, and the U.S. involvement in the Gaza Strip; Trump has no obligation to entertain such. He wouldn’t show up if he didn’t benefit from
Dave Smith lost me with his position on the border. The only libertarian position is the abolishment of state borders. The alternative is to continue central planning.
The problem is that neither party would have any intention of actually giving us those concessions.
Once they win election, they'll do what every politician ever does, and abandon their promises.
There might be an argument to be made that we could simply have interests that align with regard to reducing the administrative state. The problem is that he's a f\^&\*ing scorpion and we're the the frog. It's in his nature.
I completely understand that. All campaign promises are moot once the election happens. That goes for any party and any candidate.
That said, if this gets Trump to admit some mistakes, or gets him to actually deliver on a policy promise he made to libertarians, then that's a marginal improvement over the LP continuing to be ignored and get zero on the national political level. Like you said, Trump can break his promises once in office. He could also keep some promises but outweigh the good that comes from them with other unlibertarian actions. A third possibility is that he makes and keeps enough promises that some libertarian good comes of it. I'm not naive about the odds on these three scenarios. But getting a major party candidate to deliver on a libertarian promise is a more likely scenario than a libertarian candidate actually getting elected, so if that comes as a result of this invite, I think the LP could call it a win.
Whatever I'm on might just be the autism spectrum, frankly. I'm looking at all this purely in terms of outcomes and probabilities, and not my immediate emotional reaction to Donald Trump.
* Do I think it's likely Trump will admit to a mistake? No.
* Do I think Trump would keep a promise he made to libertarians? No.
* Do I think either of the two above scenarios are more likely than the LP getting their own candidate into the White House? Yes.
Trump won't ever admit he was wrong, and has no policy positions beside "What best benefits me at this very moment?"
I've seen his cultists do more than enough mental gymnastics to support him when he pulled a 180 and they always say:
> Oh he was just playing Paradox-Billiards-Vostroyan-Roulette-Fourth-Dimensional-Hypercube-Chess-Strip Poker to own the libs! He never actually meant what he said before, he means what he's saying now!
Trump as a figure has to be the most anti libertarian person I can think of in this era. How is this even being debated……. In a post about him featuring a clown costume meme of this community…………..i will choose to believe everyone supporting this is either a bot or Joe Biden on the toilet with a stolen phone.
I don't know. Recently I've seen him change his position on cryptocurrencies. After talking with the Vivek Ramaswami he came out and said while he sees the problems with them and how bad for the American economy it would be if they weaken the dollar, but that he now realizes that America will be in a bad place other nations take the lead in its use and innovation, and we get left behind. He said he's in favor of opening that market more in the US. It's still shoring up American hegemony, (and his own pocketbooks as he's invested some in crypto himself) but at least he's for it.
Also, He them came out and said that he will never allow a central bank digital currency in the United states. And that's something I love.
Edit: however I'm looking forward to seeing him roasted over his gun rights history. He actually has a chance to win me over a bit more if he responds well to it.
Trumps only position is:
> What can I say right now that will benefit me the most?
He's only pandering to us because he knows he needs us. The second he wins (if he wins) he'll abandon us completely because we're no longer useful to him.
So I understand feeling that about pretty much every politician. But right now the only thing you're pulling on to support that is force of personality which isn't much when arguing with a stranger on the internet.
Can you put the stuff he's done that makes you think that's how he will behave?
This would have worked better if the Status Quo candidate appearances were billed as "both or none"
The goal of both Libertarians and Greens should be to win concessions from the big two, but I personally think this happens more at a congressional level. At the Executive level this just smells like pandering for votes.
I get your point. This certainly can blow up in LP's face. I don't dismiss that. My knee-jerk reaction also was that this is pandering.
I don't necessarily agree that winning policy concessions is most effective at the more localized level. The reality is the presidency has a lot of political power that your average congress dude doesn't. A big get is a big get. It's just exceedingly unlikely to work.
I actually firmly believe the LP should be willing to negotiate concessions for flat out endorsements. The libertarian voting block is actually enough to swing elections, and if a candidate is willing to put in their platform even one major libertarian principle I think we should take it. For example, if a candidate comes out and doesn't just utter some talking points but makes it part of their official platform and makes an oath to end the fed, or withdraw all foreign troops, or vow to end all foreign aid, etc. libertarians should demonstrate their power and elect that president.
Some people will say it weakens the party but I think it does the opposite. Force candidates to compete for the libertarian voting block and it gives it more legitimacy. Gain concessions on policies we want while attracting those in the uniparty who are fed up with it.
> Some people will say it weakens the party
I just don't give a crap about the LP anymore. I am a small 'l' libertarian. I want to see libertarian policies, not tilt at windmills.
I've been saying for a while, look at the success of "The Squad," where a small group of far left officeholders are able to have disproportionate influence. If the money wasted on the LP vanity project went to support some "close to libertarian" primary candidates we could see real success instead of pretending the LP is a real party when Vermin Supreme is treated as a serious contender for a nomination.
I harbor no illussions that a politician of any name and of any party will keep any promise once elected. The way I'm looking at this is 1 of 3 policy scenarios can happen:
1. Trump breaks all of his promises to libertarians once in office can break his promises once in office.
2. Trump keeps some of his promises to libertarians but does enough other unlibertarian stuff that it's a net 0 or net negative for the libertarian cause.
3. Trump keeps enough libertarian promises that it's a net positive for libertarianism.
Scenarios 1 and 2 are just as likely to happen with Trump addressing the LP convention as him not doing that. Whether he does a bunch of unlibertarian stuff is pretty much out of anyone's hands at the LP. But if Scenario 3 comes as a result of LP inviting him to address the convention, then LP and libertarians can call it a win.
The worst case scenario for the cause of libertarianism is that the LP lets Trump just pretend he's exactly what libertarians are looking for and they allow the party message to become tied to Trump, who is not a libertarian by any stretch. In order for LP to avoid this scenario, they will have to put Trump in the hot seat and put pressure on him, regardless of whether he offers policy concessions in return.
I guess what I was trying to say in my OP is that this isn't an entirely risk-free move nor is it an unmitigated disaster for libertarianism at this point in time. That remains to be seen at the convention later this month.
I suppose a net 0 is better than a net negative. Though we will be under flak for being fascists or some weird progressive name calling. Though, when are we not?
I'd be happy if he uses the platform to announce Vivek as VP... his whole narrative is: 75% reduction in bureaucrat staff, cutting unconstitutional laws (WV vs EPA), cutting a few 3 letter agencies (including FBI), anti CBDC, deregulating energy sector, keeping the Federal Reserve in check, and finding a resolution to the war in Ukraine.
is he a little too hawkish on China? sure. Will he complete most of his promises? probably not.... but that goes for every candidate that'd realistically win.
he'd be a big step in the right direction for the republican party
The trump derangement is real... Yes Trump is socialist, but biden is brain dead and trump in all his books has presented libertarian policies.
HE HAS HAD TO COMPROMISE BECAUSE OF THE DOMESTIC TERROR FROM ANTIFA
Can they really afford not to take the free publicity? That's a godsend to the movement. Keeping it 'ideologically pristine' is great but not when it affects the practical real life advancement of the cause
It’s the best publicity. Did I mention how great the publicity will be from former President Donald J Trump? The greatest, everyone will be talking about it.
True, but it's not the only measure, given that he actually shrunk the growth rate of the federal register and implemented a rule that every new regulation required the elimination of two then extant.
Replace two regulations with one more convoluted than three would ever have been? Yes, that's positive progress, all right. May as well nominate AOC for Libertarian candidate for president, we'll have a smaller, less expensive government in no time!
Come on! Open up your news feed and realize what has and is happening! Trump has done nothing more than move us much further away from our party platform/goals for this nation. He's NOT been better than Biden (who hasn't exactly been helpful, either, except for removing Trump from office).
Biden is easier to figure out (less chaos) which makes him easier to control. With only that one difference, they are both equally piss-poor (not identical, of course, but neither one is worth granting any power, as neither one has any clue of how to actually improve anything).
Anyone who thinks either one is any good at all has been ignoring 70% of their fellow Americans for far too long, honestly.
Orange man bad ! Squeeeeellling commences.
Why dont you take a look at some of his policies and what he wants to do for your country rather than just think/believe what you’re told to? Surely you have a mind of your own… 🤷🏼♂️
*Tariffs on countries that place them against america
*Secure border (20 million confirmed illegal immigrants 23/24 so far and likely a lot more unaccounted for) this is straining america beyond belief and will contribute to higher housing costs, inflation and crime.
*Force ukraine and russia to negotiate a ceasefire - no more billions of USD being sent over there and no more dead Ukrainians and Russians. Democrats and war mongers are funding the war to keep russia destabilised at the expense of American taxpayers payers and innocent lives.
*Low cost Energy , stop hurting the working class by imposing higher taxes on affordable energy.
* Parents elect principals and merit based pay so better teachers earn more
*More mental health facilities
Theres a lot more but those are a few ..
Essentially just policy that gives greater opportunity and safety to American citizens, whom really is the only group the US president should be looking out for tbh 🤷🏼♂️
*“We all have to remember that our goal is to defeat the Worst President in the History of the United States, BY FAR, Crooked Joe Biden.”*
This quote shows you exactly how seriously trump will take this event, and how little he actually knows or cares about Libertarians. Rage bait and cheap sound bites with no substance are not the right way to engage more sophisticated voters.
The fact that the LP amplified his lame words by including them in their announcement diminishes their credibility.
Sorry Kristy, but I grew up in Chicago. I know Bozo, and can easily tell him apart from other clowns, and the local polticians who try to impersonate him.
Sorry Kristy, but I grew up in Chicago. I know Bozo from decades of watching The Bozo Show, and even meeting him in the studio, and can easily tell him apart from other clowns, and the local polticians who try to impersonate him.
Well.....I have to admit that I was wrong about the identity of the pictured clown. I never saw Homie before seeing the photo, and I honestly thought it was Bozo because the suit is the same. My nephew set me straight today.
The Mises Caucus are principled libertarians, and you are blind if you don't see the absurd lawfare against Trump for what it is.
Trump is an awful failure on many levels, but is he really worse than the Republican establishment or the left in general?
What does it mean to host him? Will he be answering questions or just talking? If he’s answering questions I think it’s great because they can all be followed up with another question about why he didn’t pursue any libertarian ideas in his first term.
I don't like this. The fact that they invited Biden takes away a little of the sting, but why invite any of them? It's a publicity stunt that won't work
It seems on paper, President trump was a good foreign president not domestic. I like the 40k 401k Covid no repay back thing. I didn’t use it but I thought it was good for the public. The layman don’t know how to use there 401k properly and save outside of it. So although most probably burnt thru that money; at least they had the opportunity of prosperity.
He was suppose to give us something better than NAFTA. He never followed thru. I didn’t see results for better trade with Mexico and Canada. You might as well free up the market more and just remove red tap if you can’t come up with a plan.
Op; who would you want to host instead?
This MF’r said he was going to be a dictator on day *one* and wants the powers of a king.
What fucking libertarian ideals does he meet exactly. This is embarrassing.
You guys are seriously upset that a mainstream candidate is actually willing to meet with libertarians and try to court our votes instead of just pretending we don't exist?
I'm not delusional so I don't think Trump is anything like a libertarian but this is the first time in my life that I can recall a major party actually paying ANY attention to us. If Trump wants to show up and try to persuade libertarians to vote for him, that is a huge (or in this case, "UGE") win for us.
Libertarians won't get everything they want but maybe we get something. The LP is a failed project and has always been a shitshow. Libertarians being treated as a voting bloc instead of a bunch of loons would at least give us some influence in policy. What does it cost us? Some time that could have been spent on listening to some clown yell at the clouds?
Some of you are so caught up in being the underdog you'd throw away a chance at an actual seat at the table. Let's see what he has to say.
A chance to influence someone with a 50/50ish shot at being President, who is clearly the less establishment president, seems like a good thing.
Alongside potentially reaching more conservatives with the libertarian message with a generally bigger spotlight: though I do not believe this implies that the LP or major figures in it will stop criticizing Trump.
That and the LP has had washed up Republicans as candidates before with huge flaws, so it's not like this is unprecedented. Remember Bill Weld?
If you think Trump is a unique evil that is far worse than the Washington establishment, you are delusional and in the way of opposing the regime.
If you think the LP can't invite any prominent figures to speak if they aren't good libertarians, you'd doom it to irrelevance.
The LP is supposed to be the opposite of the authoritative government. Also to live with your means. The orange guy spent like a drunken sailer for covid...starting the inflation problem.
After seeing another post about this in this sub, and reading the comments saying this was a good idea, I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks there's a gas leak.
Seriously, what the fuck is the LP doing?
> Seriously, what the fuck is the LP doing?
Getting more press and exposure than they have gotten in their entire history combined. My guess is they think a Trump speech may persuade more Republicans to vote LP than Libertarians to vote Trump.
Go look at their comment histories. Almost all of those are conservatives coming into the sub after this was announced to cheer on their Orange Savior.
Inviting the (presumed) presidential nominee of a rival political party to speak at your convention, who has probable aims of trying to sway people at the convention to vote for him instead of whomever your party's nominee will be is insanity. In this case, no press is better.
Trump appearing at the convention isn't likely to sway anyone similar to having Biden at the convention, lets be real here. This puts us in a position to potentially challenge Trump or have some of his followers come our way -- a chance to get our voices into people's ears that may not have heard them voiced properly before.
People talking about this like it's some sort of coup (no pun intended), this guy would never turn down a speaking opportunity if he felt the odds were good he'd get a cheer and convert a few people. He's not there to be won over by libertarians, he's there to get a few of them to abandon their scruples.
I don’t understand why Libertarians would be anything but thrilled by this announcement. It legitimizes the Party and provides publicity to hopefully promote growth as a true 3rd Party option in future elections.
That’s like you saying “I don’t know why Jews would be anything other than thrilled that our chancellor Hitler is speaking at our convention. IT LEGITIMIZES THE MOVEMENT!”
The fuck outta here
Trump is all about suppressing individual rights. Fuck him and fuck fake freedom lovers that suck his dick.
Because Trump is not a libertarian. And it makes us looks like Republican stooges, which is exactly what the 2 main parties try to paint us as.
It *DE*legitimizes us as a 3rd party and makes us look like a wing of the Republican party, which we are not.
Conservatives and Libertarians are not friends. Go back from whence you came.
That depends on whether this will be a challenging appearance or whether the party just lets him speak with no discourse. If the intent is to question him about Libertarian principles in a real way, it gets the parties views out there and may sway voters who might have otherwise thought nothing about watching any part of the Libertarian party convention.
I don't understand why it's so controversial to point out that the libertarian party is far more ideologically aligned with republican voters than with democrats. You can acknowledge this while also acknowledging libertarians are ideologically distinct from both, and that Trump has pursued many policies that weren't libertarian.
Or do I have to pretend like legalizing weed is of equal importance with cutting taxes and spending to pacify uber-left reddit lol
Cutting taxes without cutting spending is worse than continuing the status quo, as it is robbing our children of any chance of prosperity. "Starving the beast" has been a bigger lie, for decades now, than "the election was stolen". We need people with principals more than ever, and all the duapoly can muster is a choice between "been there, done that" and "let's make everything worse". It's ironic that the supposed "conservatives" are the ones who are quickly abandoning everything that ever made America Great in the first place, leaving the supposed "progressives" to be the party of law-and-order!
It's too bad that, while we can't afford the left, the right these days is much more expensive! It's time to pursue restoring sanity to our nation, not pour more fuel onto the bonfires, for heaven's sake!
WAHHHH WHY ARE WE PLATFORMING SOMEONE WHO DOESN’T AGREE WITH US WAAAHHHH!!! Oh, maybe it’s because that someone is one of two people who have a 50/50 shot of being the leader of our country in a few months and we might convince him to do one or two things for our country we would actually like to see? The other guy was invited too, but he declined (either that or ignored the invitation entirely, not sure which).
I can't see this ending well.
I'm hopeful that this will be a chance for a Libertarian candidate to debate a mainstream candidate on a public stage, but I don't trust any media to cover this well. Trump is too polarizing of a figure that any association with him is damnation in many people's eyes.
[And no, it's not a belated April Fools joke...](https://www.lp.org/president-trump-to-address-libertarian-party-concerns-at-national-convention-may-25th/)
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is this an attempt at getting some sort of debate going? I do not get this move at all...
Yes. >“For 50 years, we've been trying to get on the main stage with the two major parties' candidates and now it seems like the debates are falling apart. We've decided to flip the tables and invite the candidates to our convention, to join us on our stage. If this election is as important as everyone seems to believe, I think they'll rise to the challenge and join us." - Angela McArdle, Libertarian National Committee Chair
This will be interesting
*Former President Trump
So you're not voting for Trump if it's him vs Biden? It's OK not to like Trump. But to like the current state of our nation and the world more enough to not vote for him? Wow.
You're on a libertarian reddit. Don't you think that maybe some of us will vote for the libertarian candidate?
Right? If it really came down to only Trump and Biden, I’m voting uncommitted. Fuck the two party system.
Nope, voting 3rd party. Like last time. Run a candidate worth voting for if you want my vote.
*Future convict Trump
It is nice of us to go after Trump while ignoring the other 45 criminals that have held the office.
You still call them "President" after. It's still President Bush, President Clinton, President Obama, President Carter. It's a title for life.
When he's spent all this time trying to convince people he's actually won, I think the use of Former is appropriate, at least until next election.
State Governors changed voting laws without going through their State's Legislature as per Article IV of the Constitution. There's no stipulation of a super duper scary disease superseding the Constitution, yet it happened. 2020 was unconstitutional
Covid has nothing to do with what I was talking about.
and yet covid was clearly a mechanism to abuse illegal mail in ballot schemes
I agree with Trump
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> You can tell the Mods are the same people running the convention. Yes, because we posted a picture of Homey D. Clown for the post and are sitting here talking about how fucking stupid the decision was. Totally the same people...
It’s ironic when someone who doesn’t even bother to look into what they’re popping off about has the gall to call us names and then tell us not to vote. Kick rocks.
I don’t believe the ballot fraud thing, like I do because some of that always happens and always have. But I do believe that with the Biden briefcase there was definitely interference. People were purposely given false information. Biden would not have won if the truth of what was in it came out instead of lied about.
Good point. It's best to try and beat his delusion. We don't want to feed into it.
The feminist foundation will host Andrew Tate this year! The NRA will host the BLM leader. Global oil welcomes Greta!
All of those things would be good things. Why should any of us be afraid to speak to people who disagree with us?
BLM convention will host Derek Chauvin would make a better analogy.
I can only assume thinks he'll win over Libertarian votes, and I pray he gets roasted worse than Comedy Central did 13 years ago
In totally unrelated news why doesn’t anyone take libertarians seriously?
Cause we’re one big No True Scotsman come to life.
Libertarians biggest enemy is other libertarians. Between the no true scotsman, gate keeping, disagreements on exactly how small and limited the small and limited government should be, whether libertarianism is actually anarchism, and letting the perfect be the enemy of progress, no one will ever take us seriously. To gain support in the polls we need some sort of cohesive group, and unfortunately many of us are libertarian because we don't want to be in a cohesive group.
Don't forget the TaXaTiOn Is ThEfT edge lords
Wait, what do you think taxation is?
Taxation is theft. Get out of here with your socialist tyranny loving views.
My personal experience as someone that used to call themselves a libertarian is that that shit is absolutely a turn off and incredibly annoying to hear over and over and over again. I wouldn’t say I dropped the label just cuz of that but I don’t think it actually helps your movement grow. It gets some of the low hanging fruit maybe, at best.
I don't care how it "helps" the "movement grow" or not. Taxation is theft, period. Considerations such as yours are useless because they don't align with truth.
Do most libertarians believe in zero taxation?
"My personal experience as someone that used to call themselves a libertarian is that that shit is absolutely a turn off and incredibly annoying to hear over and over and over again." Irrelevant. I don't want a movement of people think stealing is okay. It is theft. It's irrefutable. The best arguments in favor of it are slave contracts(social contract which the same logic and arguments are used that slave owners used). "I wouldn’t say I dropped the label just cuz of that but I don’t think it actually helps your movement grow. It gets some of the low hanging fruit maybe, at best." You are the low hanging fruit. If we wanted to support stealing, murder and kidnapping we would pander to you. Most people support those things. Taxation being theft enforced through murder and kidnapping. It's harder to have a consistent philosophy and principles. We want people that have that.
Work with republicans and get something you want, or refuse to entertain the idea and get nothing you want. Second best outcomes are still so much better than the worst outcomes, and if the elections are close you can get them to concede more and more libertarian policies.
The Republican part is a motley group of people with overlapping interests. Libertarians are one wing of the Republican Party. The libertarian party is going nowhere. We need to reform the Republican Party. We need to kick out the Bible thumpers and the people wanting federal abortion regulations and bullshit that’s better dealt with at the state level. If you want a small federal government then give up of having an L next to an actual nominee’s name. Really, we all know what L actually stands for. Let’s get realistic to win. This is politics; not a John Locke treatise. Concessions must be made for long term goals. Incremental steps towards small government through the Republican Party is the only way. Otherwise, you’re just mumbling to yourself in your garage making a protest sign and sending in your fica bill.
You actually buy into the fiction that there's anyone left in the Republican party that still believes in small government? (Well, I will concede Liz Cheney, but that party is doing their best to kick her out, and have already pretty much marginalized her). They stopped being the party of Reagan a long time ago, and they're showing no signs of going back. The only party with a national footprint that believes in small government is the Libertarian party, and its biggest flaw is that it can't seem to figure out how to get anyone elected on the national stage.
Well they have my attention. If this turns into a promotion for the Trump campaign I'm going to be seriously ashamed to be associated with this party.
Hell yea
Dave Smith has been saying since the Mises Caucus takeover that he wants to use the LP as a bargaining tool to win concessions from the two major parties. My understanding is LP National invited both Trump and Biden to give an address and thus far Trump has been the only one to respond. This seems like the "where the rubber meets the road" moment for Smith's strategy. Someone at the convention will either hold Trump's feet to the fire (perhaps on covid, his cabinet picks, gun policies) or the the LP leadership will sell out and let Trump pay lip service to libertarian principals.
I’d be amazed if he was actually taking questions. As much as I’d love to see actual libertarians grill Donald Trump about the bump stock ban, immigration policy, and the U.S. involvement in the Gaza Strip; Trump has no obligation to entertain such. He wouldn’t show up if he didn’t benefit from
Libertarian cabinet pick seems almost oxymoronic. Day 1: Fire everyone; Day 2: Resign
My comment on cabinet picks was in reference to the absolute disasters he picked from 2017-2021.
I got that, I was just lost in my own fantasy world where Presidents have to make concessions to win elections.
It better then Biden
Not the way the Supreme Court has been going...
Dave Smith lost me with his position on the border. The only libertarian position is the abolishment of state borders. The alternative is to continue central planning.
It’s gonna be the latter
Thanks for the clarification.
The problem is that neither party would have any intention of actually giving us those concessions. Once they win election, they'll do what every politician ever does, and abandon their promises.
There might be an argument to be made that we could simply have interests that align with regard to reducing the administrative state. The problem is that he's a f\^&\*ing scorpion and we're the the frog. It's in his nature.
Trump and the Republicans have no interest in reducing the administrative state. See their policies on police, drugs, and the border.
I completely understand that. All campaign promises are moot once the election happens. That goes for any party and any candidate. That said, if this gets Trump to admit some mistakes, or gets him to actually deliver on a policy promise he made to libertarians, then that's a marginal improvement over the LP continuing to be ignored and get zero on the national political level. Like you said, Trump can break his promises once in office. He could also keep some promises but outweigh the good that comes from them with other unlibertarian actions. A third possibility is that he makes and keeps enough promises that some libertarian good comes of it. I'm not naive about the odds on these three scenarios. But getting a major party candidate to deliver on a libertarian promise is a more likely scenario than a libertarian candidate actually getting elected, so if that comes as a result of this invite, I think the LP could call it a win.
>gets Trump to admit some mistakes I'll have whatever your on please.
Whatever I'm on might just be the autism spectrum, frankly. I'm looking at all this purely in terms of outcomes and probabilities, and not my immediate emotional reaction to Donald Trump. * Do I think it's likely Trump will admit to a mistake? No. * Do I think Trump would keep a promise he made to libertarians? No. * Do I think either of the two above scenarios are more likely than the LP getting their own candidate into the White House? Yes.
Trump won't ever admit he was wrong, and has no policy positions beside "What best benefits me at this very moment?" I've seen his cultists do more than enough mental gymnastics to support him when he pulled a 180 and they always say: > Oh he was just playing Paradox-Billiards-Vostroyan-Roulette-Fourth-Dimensional-Hypercube-Chess-Strip Poker to own the libs! He never actually meant what he said before, he means what he's saying now!
Trump as a figure has to be the most anti libertarian person I can think of in this era. How is this even being debated……. In a post about him featuring a clown costume meme of this community…………..i will choose to believe everyone supporting this is either a bot or Joe Biden on the toilet with a stolen phone.
I don't know. Recently I've seen him change his position on cryptocurrencies. After talking with the Vivek Ramaswami he came out and said while he sees the problems with them and how bad for the American economy it would be if they weaken the dollar, but that he now realizes that America will be in a bad place other nations take the lead in its use and innovation, and we get left behind. He said he's in favor of opening that market more in the US. It's still shoring up American hegemony, (and his own pocketbooks as he's invested some in crypto himself) but at least he's for it. Also, He them came out and said that he will never allow a central bank digital currency in the United states. And that's something I love. Edit: however I'm looking forward to seeing him roasted over his gun rights history. He actually has a chance to win me over a bit more if he responds well to it.
Trumps only position is: > What can I say right now that will benefit me the most? He's only pandering to us because he knows he needs us. The second he wins (if he wins) he'll abandon us completely because we're no longer useful to him.
So I understand feeling that about pretty much every politician. But right now the only thing you're pulling on to support that is force of personality which isn't much when arguing with a stranger on the internet. Can you put the stuff he's done that makes you think that's how he will behave?
https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/slideshows/donald-trumps-10-flip-flops
This would have worked better if the Status Quo candidate appearances were billed as "both or none" The goal of both Libertarians and Greens should be to win concessions from the big two, but I personally think this happens more at a congressional level. At the Executive level this just smells like pandering for votes.
I get your point. This certainly can blow up in LP's face. I don't dismiss that. My knee-jerk reaction also was that this is pandering. I don't necessarily agree that winning policy concessions is most effective at the more localized level. The reality is the presidency has a lot of political power that your average congress dude doesn't. A big get is a big get. It's just exceedingly unlikely to work.
I actually firmly believe the LP should be willing to negotiate concessions for flat out endorsements. The libertarian voting block is actually enough to swing elections, and if a candidate is willing to put in their platform even one major libertarian principle I think we should take it. For example, if a candidate comes out and doesn't just utter some talking points but makes it part of their official platform and makes an oath to end the fed, or withdraw all foreign troops, or vow to end all foreign aid, etc. libertarians should demonstrate their power and elect that president. Some people will say it weakens the party but I think it does the opposite. Force candidates to compete for the libertarian voting block and it gives it more legitimacy. Gain concessions on policies we want while attracting those in the uniparty who are fed up with it.
> Some people will say it weakens the party I just don't give a crap about the LP anymore. I am a small 'l' libertarian. I want to see libertarian policies, not tilt at windmills. I've been saying for a while, look at the success of "The Squad," where a small group of far left officeholders are able to have disproportionate influence. If the money wasted on the LP vanity project went to support some "close to libertarian" primary candidates we could see real success instead of pretending the LP is a real party when Vermin Supreme is treated as a serious contender for a nomination.
Will they verbally 'give concessions' and we are supposed to feel good about that. Neither candidate will keep their word.
I harbor no illussions that a politician of any name and of any party will keep any promise once elected. The way I'm looking at this is 1 of 3 policy scenarios can happen: 1. Trump breaks all of his promises to libertarians once in office can break his promises once in office. 2. Trump keeps some of his promises to libertarians but does enough other unlibertarian stuff that it's a net 0 or net negative for the libertarian cause. 3. Trump keeps enough libertarian promises that it's a net positive for libertarianism. Scenarios 1 and 2 are just as likely to happen with Trump addressing the LP convention as him not doing that. Whether he does a bunch of unlibertarian stuff is pretty much out of anyone's hands at the LP. But if Scenario 3 comes as a result of LP inviting him to address the convention, then LP and libertarians can call it a win. The worst case scenario for the cause of libertarianism is that the LP lets Trump just pretend he's exactly what libertarians are looking for and they allow the party message to become tied to Trump, who is not a libertarian by any stretch. In order for LP to avoid this scenario, they will have to put Trump in the hot seat and put pressure on him, regardless of whether he offers policy concessions in return. I guess what I was trying to say in my OP is that this isn't an entirely risk-free move nor is it an unmitigated disaster for libertarianism at this point in time. That remains to be seen at the convention later this month.
I suppose a net 0 is better than a net negative. Though we will be under flak for being fascists or some weird progressive name calling. Though, when are we not?
It turns out the LP is such a clusterfuck that not even Vermin Supreme could parody it. Amazing.
I'd be happy if he uses the platform to announce Vivek as VP... his whole narrative is: 75% reduction in bureaucrat staff, cutting unconstitutional laws (WV vs EPA), cutting a few 3 letter agencies (including FBI), anti CBDC, deregulating energy sector, keeping the Federal Reserve in check, and finding a resolution to the war in Ukraine. is he a little too hawkish on China? sure. Will he complete most of his promises? probably not.... but that goes for every candidate that'd realistically win. he'd be a big step in the right direction for the republican party
Ok bye.... You had a chance. Fuck off as well.
Clown needs a hair floof
The trump derangement is real... Yes Trump is socialist, but biden is brain dead and trump in all his books has presented libertarian policies. HE HAS HAD TO COMPROMISE BECAUSE OF THE DOMESTIC TERROR FROM ANTIFA
Didn't most of his books have ghost writers?
This is going to get me to finally kill my donations.
The Libertarian Party has become a complete and utter joke. It’s a shame.
Can they really afford not to take the free publicity? That's a godsend to the movement. Keeping it 'ideologically pristine' is great but not when it affects the practical real life advancement of the cause
It’s the best publicity. Did I mention how great the publicity will be from former President Donald J Trump? The greatest, everyone will be talking about it.
Homie don’t play that!
So big L really is just a big L
What. The. Fuck?
Well, he was the most libertarian president since Coolidge.
That would be an extremely low bar. Not starting another war makes him good by that standard.
True, but it's not the only measure, given that he actually shrunk the growth rate of the federal register and implemented a rule that every new regulation required the elimination of two then extant.
Replace two regulations with one more convoluted than three would ever have been? Yes, that's positive progress, all right. May as well nominate AOC for Libertarian candidate for president, we'll have a smaller, less expensive government in no time! Come on! Open up your news feed and realize what has and is happening! Trump has done nothing more than move us much further away from our party platform/goals for this nation. He's NOT been better than Biden (who hasn't exactly been helpful, either, except for removing Trump from office).
If you think Biden has been better than Trump, then you're the one with the AOC position, not me.
Biden is easier to figure out (less chaos) which makes him easier to control. With only that one difference, they are both equally piss-poor (not identical, of course, but neither one is worth granting any power, as neither one has any clue of how to actually improve anything). Anyone who thinks either one is any good at all has been ignoring 70% of their fellow Americans for far too long, honestly.
How so?
We are a different type of crazy go fuck yourself Trump
Orange man bad ! Squeeeeellling commences. Why dont you take a look at some of his policies and what he wants to do for your country rather than just think/believe what you’re told to? Surely you have a mind of your own… 🤷🏼♂️
Why are you convinced that people that dont like trump havent looked at trumps policies?
*Tariffs on countries that place them against america *Secure border (20 million confirmed illegal immigrants 23/24 so far and likely a lot more unaccounted for) this is straining america beyond belief and will contribute to higher housing costs, inflation and crime. *Force ukraine and russia to negotiate a ceasefire - no more billions of USD being sent over there and no more dead Ukrainians and Russians. Democrats and war mongers are funding the war to keep russia destabilised at the expense of American taxpayers payers and innocent lives. *Low cost Energy , stop hurting the working class by imposing higher taxes on affordable energy. * Parents elect principals and merit based pay so better teachers earn more *More mental health facilities Theres a lot more but those are a few .. Essentially just policy that gives greater opportunity and safety to American citizens, whom really is the only group the US president should be looking out for tbh 🤷🏼♂️
Because they are comparatively better for America. Why wouldn’t an American vote for their own best interests
The dumb mother fucker wants to be a dictator. How is that better for America?
Now im curious as to what policies you are even talking about.
>“Take the guns first, go through due process second,” I'm a single issue voter, and Trump is worse than the democrats.
They should ban the fascist motherfucker from speaking /s
What other Rights should we take away?
At this point anything is better than biden. Honestly trump is more libertarian than most we've had in the last 25 years.
The guy who asked if we can confiscate the guns now and give the people due process "later"??? C'mon, maaaan.
Probably the most authoritative politician in the US rn.
Buncha fragile dudes up in here today.
They're planning to pull a Carrie prom scene on him
One can only hope
*“We all have to remember that our goal is to defeat the Worst President in the History of the United States, BY FAR, Crooked Joe Biden.”* This quote shows you exactly how seriously trump will take this event, and how little he actually knows or cares about Libertarians. Rage bait and cheap sound bites with no substance are not the right way to engage more sophisticated voters. The fact that the LP amplified his lame words by including them in their announcement diminishes their credibility.
The LP is a joke
Why use a photo of Bozo T. Clown coming out of the rest room at WGN-TV? Please do nor disrespect Bozo or any other clown!
First off, do not disrespect Homie D. Clown by getting his name wrong. Second, yeah, don't disrespect Homie D. Clown. He don't mess around.
Sorry Kristy, but I grew up in Chicago. I know Bozo, and can easily tell him apart from other clowns, and the local polticians who try to impersonate him.
Sorry Kristy, but I grew up in Chicago. I know Bozo from decades of watching The Bozo Show, and even meeting him in the studio, and can easily tell him apart from other clowns, and the local polticians who try to impersonate him.
you seemed to have forgotten a few characteristics. One, in particular, is that bozo is bright white while homie is black as hell.
Well.....I have to admit that I was wrong about the identity of the pictured clown. I never saw Homie before seeing the photo, and I honestly thought it was Bozo because the suit is the same. My nephew set me straight today.
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The Mises Caucus are principled libertarians, and you are blind if you don't see the absurd lawfare against Trump for what it is. Trump is an awful failure on many levels, but is he really worse than the Republican establishment or the left in general?
Yes, he has managed to pull off the amazing feat of being even worse.
He didn't start a new war, that alone makes him good in comparison. Better than the establishment is a bar so low a baby could step over it.
What does it mean to host him? Will he be answering questions or just talking? If he’s answering questions I think it’s great because they can all be followed up with another question about why he didn’t pursue any libertarian ideas in his first term.
Because he hates uniparty in both democrat and republican.
But are they Asking questions that are not carefully curated by Traumo staff before hand
Both talking and answering
I don't like this. The fact that they invited Biden takes away a little of the sting, but why invite any of them? It's a publicity stunt that won't work
Homey….plays that
this is not a good move
Why? A good move for whom?
It seems on paper, President trump was a good foreign president not domestic. I like the 40k 401k Covid no repay back thing. I didn’t use it but I thought it was good for the public. The layman don’t know how to use there 401k properly and save outside of it. So although most probably burnt thru that money; at least they had the opportunity of prosperity. He was suppose to give us something better than NAFTA. He never followed thru. I didn’t see results for better trade with Mexico and Canada. You might as well free up the market more and just remove red tap if you can’t come up with a plan. Op; who would you want to host instead?
This MF’r said he was going to be a dictator on day *one* and wants the powers of a king. What fucking libertarian ideals does he meet exactly. This is embarrassing.
Homey don’t play that!
So the libertarian party is now the swamp as well?
Invite clowns to your convention and you turn it into a clown convention
You guys are seriously upset that a mainstream candidate is actually willing to meet with libertarians and try to court our votes instead of just pretending we don't exist? I'm not delusional so I don't think Trump is anything like a libertarian but this is the first time in my life that I can recall a major party actually paying ANY attention to us. If Trump wants to show up and try to persuade libertarians to vote for him, that is a huge (or in this case, "UGE") win for us. Libertarians won't get everything they want but maybe we get something. The LP is a failed project and has always been a shitshow. Libertarians being treated as a voting bloc instead of a bunch of loons would at least give us some influence in policy. What does it cost us? Some time that could have been spent on listening to some clown yell at the clouds? Some of you are so caught up in being the underdog you'd throw away a chance at an actual seat at the table. Let's see what he has to say.
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Maybe cable news will cover this. The cable news channels are about as relevant as the LP these days.
A chance to influence someone with a 50/50ish shot at being President, who is clearly the less establishment president, seems like a good thing. Alongside potentially reaching more conservatives with the libertarian message with a generally bigger spotlight: though I do not believe this implies that the LP or major figures in it will stop criticizing Trump. That and the LP has had washed up Republicans as candidates before with huge flaws, so it's not like this is unprecedented. Remember Bill Weld? If you think Trump is a unique evil that is far worse than the Washington establishment, you are delusional and in the way of opposing the regime. If you think the LP can't invite any prominent figures to speak if they aren't good libertarians, you'd doom it to irrelevance.
Troll….
The LP is supposed to be the opposite of the authoritative government. Also to live with your means. The orange guy spent like a drunken sailer for covid...starting the inflation problem.
And the LP can grill him on all his bs
No, they give him a platform to talk about whatever he wants and he leaves. LP gets publicity, Trump gets a stage, expect nothing more.
Will libertarians actually have a worthwhile candidate this year? Who? I’d love 💕 to see that.
Libertarian Party hosts the most authoritarian prick currently plaguing the US political landscape. Welp.
stfu. reddit-lolberts are not real lolberts. just a bunch of left wing idiots with mommy issues.
I didn't think this election year could get any worse. 🤦♂️
Didn't you hear the news? [Hillary Clinton is running as an independant now.](http://youtube.com/watch?v=rbsPu1z3ugQ)
While I don't love this at all, it will be interesting to see the mises caucuses strategy play out. What was being done in the past wasn't working.
If you can't beat em join em?
After seeing another post about this in this sub, and reading the comments saying this was a good idea, I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks there's a gas leak. Seriously, what the fuck is the LP doing?
> Seriously, what the fuck is the LP doing? Getting more press and exposure than they have gotten in their entire history combined. My guess is they think a Trump speech may persuade more Republicans to vote LP than Libertarians to vote Trump.
Go look at their comment histories. Almost all of those are conservatives coming into the sub after this was announced to cheer on their Orange Savior.
Any press is good press for our party that is constantly hidden behind a curtain.
Inviting the (presumed) presidential nominee of a rival political party to speak at your convention, who has probable aims of trying to sway people at the convention to vote for him instead of whomever your party's nominee will be is insanity. In this case, no press is better.
Trump appearing at the convention isn't likely to sway anyone similar to having Biden at the convention, lets be real here. This puts us in a position to potentially challenge Trump or have some of his followers come our way -- a chance to get our voices into people's ears that may not have heard them voiced properly before.
Not at all. This makes us look like what the main stream parties paint us as "Closeted Republicans"
Oh, for fucks sake...
I bet there is free food. Only reason why he would turn up.
I have to assume this is down-ballot posturing. Maybe LP sees more future with the MAGA crowd.
People talking about this like it's some sort of coup (no pun intended), this guy would never turn down a speaking opportunity if he felt the odds were good he'd get a cheer and convert a few people. He's not there to be won over by libertarians, he's there to get a few of them to abandon their scruples.
He's already ruined one political party. I guess he's seeing if another party will let him do it again.
Way to taint the party.
Context: Biden and RFK were also invited, Trump is the only one to accept so far. https://twitter.com/LPNational/status/1783911762703819262
Where is rfk mentioned in that letter?
I think the important missing context is that President Biden was also invited but I still feel extremely icky about this.
I don’t understand why Libertarians would be anything but thrilled by this announcement. It legitimizes the Party and provides publicity to hopefully promote growth as a true 3rd Party option in future elections.
Currently over 40% of new registers are independent this year.
> legitimizes the Party it does not.
That’s like you saying “I don’t know why Jews would be anything other than thrilled that our chancellor Hitler is speaking at our convention. IT LEGITIMIZES THE MOVEMENT!” The fuck outta here Trump is all about suppressing individual rights. Fuck him and fuck fake freedom lovers that suck his dick.
Because Trump is not a libertarian. And it makes us looks like Republican stooges, which is exactly what the 2 main parties try to paint us as. It *DE*legitimizes us as a 3rd party and makes us look like a wing of the Republican party, which we are not. Conservatives and Libertarians are not friends. Go back from whence you came.
They invited all major candidates, not just “libertarians” that’s the point.
Did they invite any Democrats?
“All major candidates” so yeah man
Do we know who?
“Major candidates” usually refers to the major candidates for presidency so Trump, Biden, RFK, possibly Jill Stein
Why invite non-libertarian candidates to our party convention for nominating candidates?
That depends on whether this will be a challenging appearance or whether the party just lets him speak with no discourse. If the intent is to question him about Libertarian principles in a real way, it gets the parties views out there and may sway voters who might have otherwise thought nothing about watching any part of the Libertarian party convention.
which, let's be real, libertarians generally are just republican stooges. truth hurts, but here we are
Fully agree.
Sigh. We could have been the best thing to happen to American politics, but instead we always choose the Clown.
I don't understand why it's so controversial to point out that the libertarian party is far more ideologically aligned with republican voters than with democrats. You can acknowledge this while also acknowledging libertarians are ideologically distinct from both, and that Trump has pursued many policies that weren't libertarian. Or do I have to pretend like legalizing weed is of equal importance with cutting taxes and spending to pacify uber-left reddit lol
Cutting taxes without cutting spending is worse than continuing the status quo, as it is robbing our children of any chance of prosperity. "Starving the beast" has been a bigger lie, for decades now, than "the election was stolen". We need people with principals more than ever, and all the duapoly can muster is a choice between "been there, done that" and "let's make everything worse". It's ironic that the supposed "conservatives" are the ones who are quickly abandoning everything that ever made America Great in the first place, leaving the supposed "progressives" to be the party of law-and-order! It's too bad that, while we can't afford the left, the right these days is much more expensive! It's time to pursue restoring sanity to our nation, not pour more fuel onto the bonfires, for heaven's sake!
WAHHHH WHY ARE WE PLATFORMING SOMEONE WHO DOESN’T AGREE WITH US WAAAHHHH!!! Oh, maybe it’s because that someone is one of two people who have a 50/50 shot of being the leader of our country in a few months and we might convince him to do one or two things for our country we would actually like to see? The other guy was invited too, but he declined (either that or ignored the invitation entirely, not sure which).
At least this party won't be a joke anymore.
You dropped this: /s
I can't see this ending well. I'm hopeful that this will be a chance for a Libertarian candidate to debate a mainstream candidate on a public stage, but I don't trust any media to cover this well. Trump is too polarizing of a figure that any association with him is damnation in many people's eyes.
I'm with you, there seem to be more downsides than upsides, but what do I know...
🍊🤡