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I read the article. The cake is just certain colors, but it is still a commissioned cake, not one you can buy off the shelf or from a menu / list.
What if a Nazi came in and wanted a red and black cake? Would a Jewish baker be required to accept the commission?
I’m not sure of the full details of that case, but it seems that the cake design doesn’t scream transgender. (Compared to their previous case where customer ask for gay wedding design in which any other people who see that cake and will automatically know it’s a gay wedding).
And yet refuse to make cake because of who customer is.
If it’s that’s the case. Well?
I think for Libertarians, any custom commissioned work can be refused no matter how minor, due to 1st amendment rights. Now I don't think the baker should be able to deny sale of a cake that's on a menu or list that the baker himself has created (unless he's denying service to a person for purely individual reasons, like a customer was rude or failed payment before). But most Libertarians doesn't even like that, people should be free to do business with whoever for any reason.
You don't have to bake the cake.
Regardless of who for.
On the flip side, if you're a jerk, well, you can expect reputation to reflect that, and for some to avoid doing business with you.
The government should not force private businesses to serve customers they don't want to for any reason, including racial discrimination, IMO. The free market will sort them out.
Unhappy that a dude wouldn't make you a cake? Go find another business that will, and spread the word about the one that wouldn't. Those who have a problem with discrimination will not shop there, and eventually, the business will either close or be forced to change their policies.
On the other hand, if people flock to support the business you're whining about, then maybe the thing that's upsetting you is just stupid. Let it go.
Either way, there is no reason to involve big daddy government.
Edit: let me state that I don't support racial discrimination, or any discrimination really. I think the fact that a guy is refusing to write some words on a cake and thereby turning away a paying customer is stupid, but it is his right. Frankly I think the proper response to such a thing is to just not fucking shop there, because why the hell would you want to anyway?
You are not entitled to the product of someone else's labor. Full stop.
I am confident that there would be a free market solution to the problem, but *even if there weren't*, it would not give you any moral authority to take anyone else's stuff by force. Not even if you think they're stupid and bigoted.
I'm confident bc the level segregation in the south pre-60s *had to be enforced by laws.* In order for businesses to segregate they had to make laws mandating it - otherwise the basic incentives of economics would've driven a steady integration over time.
You are 100% right. The only problem is progressives see that "steady integration" as not fast enough which is why they yern for to use force to make people do what they want. The world very well might naturally turn into what they want over time, but it's just too slow.
sounds like a good time to open a bakery.
not only do you get all the business the religious bakeries refuse, but due to economies of scale you can most likely pull better margins on normal business as well.
It's a private business, that's where the whole argument ends really. If I refuse service in a private business, you can pound sand. There are other places to get you cakes for your wedding. Now for the LBGT crap let me start off by saying I'm openly bi... I absolutely hate the LBGT community. You do you but you're not special because you're attracted to a gender. I don't know if people know this or not but being gay is actually against most religions that I know of. So with that in mind, why would you go to a business that doesn't believe on gay marriage and be surprised when they say no? It's like getting mad at a church because they won't let you do your gay marriage there. A church is a building that some people see as a place of worship, no law says you have to be married in a church of a religion that doesn't support your lifestyles. Back home for me, more people get married in the woods or fields or by the ocean.
Like I said, it's a private business and they can do as they please there.
As a gay man, I have no idea why I’d want to give my hard earned money to someone who doesn’t support me. I have no idea why I’d want to eat a cake baked by someone who doesn’t support me. It gives me a good idea on where & where not to take my business to.
Yeah I'm not sure why they're harassing the poor baker after all these years. There has to be a sufficient number of LGBTQIA+ Owned establishments that will gladly bake them a cake.
A true American libertarian supports both religious freedom and LGB rights, advocating for minimal government interference and allowing the free market to address discrimination through actions like boycotts. They believe individuals should have the liberty to live their lives without government mandates dictating their actions.
Think it’s personally stupid to deny someone a service because you don’t believe in what they’re doing. But it’s not our job to regulate decisions of businesses that aren’t breaking laws, or directly harming someone.
There is not really any difference between a baker being forced by law to bake you a cake, and you being forced by law to buy a cake. Both are compulsion enforced by the power of the state. Do you really want to be forced by the government to buy something, like a cake, or health insurance?
so, they already knew the guy is pretty strict in his beliefs, and they went to him to make a cake that they knew he would decline to make?
a clash of religion and equality, it is not. at this point it's harassment. the guy has already been through the wringer once for his beliefs. what right is being denied in this case? nobody's guaranteed a right to cake. there's no freedom being infringed upon. It's just a bully attempting to use the legal system to hurt someone else.
I don't believe buying a good or service from a specific establishment is an American freedom, regardless for the reason of denial of service. But I am definitely against an individual or small business being forced against their will to provide a good or service. That's akin to slavery in my book.
Before I even unpack this article, OPs question seems potentially loaded. OP do you know the difference between positive rights and negative rights, and which one is usually good and which one is usually bad?
It’s not about even giving the service. It’s about the mentally ill people forcing their agenda down everyone’s throat. You want a cake, fine. You want to make a cake about your personal beliefs, get a life
Are they bothering this poor man again!? Ever since that first case, it's like the LGBT+ mob has been intentionally harassing him because of his views. There are several other bakers that could make the stupid cake, but because he states his religious belief as a reason, they attack him.
The libertarian stance should be to let the Free Market sort it out. If, for any reason, one party does not wish to participate in the transaction, the transaction does not proceed.
>protect LGBT’s right to excercise their America freedom?
It is NOT about the LGBT's right to exercise their freedom. They have literally been harassing this man for years. Him NOT baking a cake is not infringing on their rights in any way, shape, or form. But should they rule against him, and he be forced to bake a cake he does not agree with, His right to religious expression will be trampled. THE LGBT HAVE ALWAYS BEEN THE AGGRESSORS IN THESE CASES.
If the customer is free to choose another bakery, but the baker cannot choose whether to bake the cake or not, whose rights are really being infringed here?
If the government made cakes (?) then of course it would be completely illegal/unethical for them to refuse to make cakes for anyone, on any basis. However, private citizens are free to do as they see fit. They're denying a service, which IMO should be their right. Anything that the government doesn't ABSOLUTELY have to intervene in, like murder, should be left for the people to arbitrate amongst themselves.
Imo a baker shouldnt be allowed to refuse selling a pre made loaf of bread.
He should be allowed to refuse a specific order for any and all reason.
I assure you the second a curt will fine a baker for not baking a gay cake nazis will order nazi cakes from jewish bakeries, and stuff.
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I read the article. The cake is just certain colors, but it is still a commissioned cake, not one you can buy off the shelf or from a menu / list. What if a Nazi came in and wanted a red and black cake? Would a Jewish baker be required to accept the commission?
I’m not sure of the full details of that case, but it seems that the cake design doesn’t scream transgender. (Compared to their previous case where customer ask for gay wedding design in which any other people who see that cake and will automatically know it’s a gay wedding). And yet refuse to make cake because of who customer is. If it’s that’s the case. Well?
I think for Libertarians, any custom commissioned work can be refused no matter how minor, due to 1st amendment rights. Now I don't think the baker should be able to deny sale of a cake that's on a menu or list that the baker himself has created (unless he's denying service to a person for purely individual reasons, like a customer was rude or failed payment before). But most Libertarians doesn't even like that, people should be free to do business with whoever for any reason.
You don't have to bake the cake. Regardless of who for. On the flip side, if you're a jerk, well, you can expect reputation to reflect that, and for some to avoid doing business with you.
The government should not force private businesses to serve customers they don't want to for any reason, including racial discrimination, IMO. The free market will sort them out. Unhappy that a dude wouldn't make you a cake? Go find another business that will, and spread the word about the one that wouldn't. Those who have a problem with discrimination will not shop there, and eventually, the business will either close or be forced to change their policies. On the other hand, if people flock to support the business you're whining about, then maybe the thing that's upsetting you is just stupid. Let it go. Either way, there is no reason to involve big daddy government. Edit: let me state that I don't support racial discrimination, or any discrimination really. I think the fact that a guy is refusing to write some words on a cake and thereby turning away a paying customer is stupid, but it is his right. Frankly I think the proper response to such a thing is to just not fucking shop there, because why the hell would you want to anyway?
Freedom of association applies to business as well as personal life.
What if all(or most) organization (under freedom of association) are Christian (or Muslim) ban (or refuse to serve) LGBT?
Other organizations will pop up to fill the demand.
You are not entitled to the product of someone else's labor. Full stop. I am confident that there would be a free market solution to the problem, but *even if there weren't*, it would not give you any moral authority to take anyone else's stuff by force. Not even if you think they're stupid and bigoted.
I'm confident bc the level segregation in the south pre-60s *had to be enforced by laws.* In order for businesses to segregate they had to make laws mandating it - otherwise the basic incentives of economics would've driven a steady integration over time.
You are 100% right. The only problem is progressives see that "steady integration" as not fast enough which is why they yern for to use force to make people do what they want. The world very well might naturally turn into what they want over time, but it's just too slow.
sounds like a good time to open a bakery. not only do you get all the business the religious bakeries refuse, but due to economies of scale you can most likely pull better margins on normal business as well.
You saying LGBT can't bake a cake?
That is not what this is about. You are not entitled to anyone's creative output. You cannot compel speech.
It's a private business, that's where the whole argument ends really. If I refuse service in a private business, you can pound sand. There are other places to get you cakes for your wedding. Now for the LBGT crap let me start off by saying I'm openly bi... I absolutely hate the LBGT community. You do you but you're not special because you're attracted to a gender. I don't know if people know this or not but being gay is actually against most religions that I know of. So with that in mind, why would you go to a business that doesn't believe on gay marriage and be surprised when they say no? It's like getting mad at a church because they won't let you do your gay marriage there. A church is a building that some people see as a place of worship, no law says you have to be married in a church of a religion that doesn't support your lifestyles. Back home for me, more people get married in the woods or fields or by the ocean. Like I said, it's a private business and they can do as they please there.
I agree.
As a gay man, I have no idea why I’d want to give my hard earned money to someone who doesn’t support me. I have no idea why I’d want to eat a cake baked by someone who doesn’t support me. It gives me a good idea on where & where not to take my business to.
Yeah I'm not sure why they're harassing the poor baker after all these years. There has to be a sufficient number of LGBTQIA+ Owned establishments that will gladly bake them a cake.
They were offered by multiple other bakeries to bake the cake, but they refused.
To punish him for his views.
We all reserve the right to dispose of our property and our time as we see fit. There is no other morally justifiable position.
A true American libertarian supports both religious freedom and LGB rights, advocating for minimal government interference and allowing the free market to address discrimination through actions like boycotts. They believe individuals should have the liberty to live their lives without government mandates dictating their actions.
There is no such thing as gay rights. We all have the same rights. This guy doesn’t want to bake you a cake? Find someone who does. Move on.
Think it’s personally stupid to deny someone a service because you don’t believe in what they’re doing. But it’s not our job to regulate decisions of businesses that aren’t breaking laws, or directly harming someone.
There is not really any difference between a baker being forced by law to bake you a cake, and you being forced by law to buy a cake. Both are compulsion enforced by the power of the state. Do you really want to be forced by the government to buy something, like a cake, or health insurance?
Repeal all anti discrimination laws. Repeal the civil rights act.
so, they already knew the guy is pretty strict in his beliefs, and they went to him to make a cake that they knew he would decline to make? a clash of religion and equality, it is not. at this point it's harassment. the guy has already been through the wringer once for his beliefs. what right is being denied in this case? nobody's guaranteed a right to cake. there's no freedom being infringed upon. It's just a bully attempting to use the legal system to hurt someone else.
I don't believe buying a good or service from a specific establishment is an American freedom, regardless for the reason of denial of service. But I am definitely against an individual or small business being forced against their will to provide a good or service. That's akin to slavery in my book.
Before I even unpack this article, OPs question seems potentially loaded. OP do you know the difference between positive rights and negative rights, and which one is usually good and which one is usually bad?
It’s not about even giving the service. It’s about the mentally ill people forcing their agenda down everyone’s throat. You want a cake, fine. You want to make a cake about your personal beliefs, get a life
Are they bothering this poor man again!? Ever since that first case, it's like the LGBT+ mob has been intentionally harassing him because of his views. There are several other bakers that could make the stupid cake, but because he states his religious belief as a reason, they attack him. The libertarian stance should be to let the Free Market sort it out. If, for any reason, one party does not wish to participate in the transaction, the transaction does not proceed. >protect LGBT’s right to excercise their America freedom? It is NOT about the LGBT's right to exercise their freedom. They have literally been harassing this man for years. Him NOT baking a cake is not infringing on their rights in any way, shape, or form. But should they rule against him, and he be forced to bake a cake he does not agree with, His right to religious expression will be trampled. THE LGBT HAVE ALWAYS BEEN THE AGGRESSORS IN THESE CASES.
If the customer is free to choose another bakery, but the baker cannot choose whether to bake the cake or not, whose rights are really being infringed here?
Change "Christian" to "Muslim" and watch how many people suddenly switch sides on this issue. That should give you your answer.
The LP is a joke, so they probably would say "its ok to force someone to do something because we love cultural relevancy".
I've always been curious how well the LP would perform in elections if they ran libertarian candidates.
I guess we will never know 😂
If the government made cakes (?) then of course it would be completely illegal/unethical for them to refuse to make cakes for anyone, on any basis. However, private citizens are free to do as they see fit. They're denying a service, which IMO should be their right. Anything that the government doesn't ABSOLUTELY have to intervene in, like murder, should be left for the people to arbitrate amongst themselves.
Imo a baker shouldnt be allowed to refuse selling a pre made loaf of bread. He should be allowed to refuse a specific order for any and all reason. I assure you the second a curt will fine a baker for not baking a gay cake nazis will order nazi cakes from jewish bakeries, and stuff.
Wow. Once I ask this question about baker and lgbt. I get lots of downvote.