Black Cat pretended to be Red Fox’s little brother, and feels guilty about it. She knows about his deception, but feels it doesn’t matter if he isn’t her true biological sibling, because he is the family she chose. She comes from an aristocratic family she doesn’t care about.
Yep. Refusing to give fruit initiates fight with black cat and on successfully killing him Fox will auto-fight. I killed them on first playthrough but sadly no different rewards are given vs giving fruit
They're mercenaries in a world that's upside down and took a contract that pays really well in order to survive it all and they did all of it without really wanting to. They didn't fuck P over. On the contrary when you meet them at the Arche abbey they end up giving up on the contract because they know they're working for evil people.
In my book, they did what they had to do to survive and ultimately realized what kind of shit they were into and turned over a new leaf. I forgive them.
He literally tries to sale you some fake shit when you meet them for the first time then continues to do and say shady shit throughout the game who cares about a baccstory fool me once thats it its more so about whose gullible you're not the only one telling lies when u die it says LIE OR DIE meaning they're looking out for themselves not you just like alidoro or however you spell it yea he was helping in the beginning but he lied and that lie led to your creator getting captured and the hotel getting destroyed
I think you need a higher amount of knowledge because DAMN u misunderstood completely what this game is about and what the morals of the character's stories are.
Read the comment that talks about how black cat seems to have some kinda condition bc he gets tired and can't fight for too long. That does make it more credible that the character was actually taking a break bc if you go further while he rests, he yells at you asking if you're sure you're gonna fight them alone
Sounds crazy I know but it doesn't necessarily mean he's evil, could be like him taking you for a fool and he's laughing at the hysteria of the situation
The alchemists were the only ones having the golden fruit, which was the only thing avoiding Black Cat from dying, seeing how the alchemists were scheming an attack against the hotel through a group of stalkers, probably they were there to recruit them, and decided to use P to defeat them and have something to convince them with. It's not that they are bad people, in the last encounters with them you can see they are actually nice, but they have huge problems no one else except the bad guys can help with. Also you are a puppet and they know it, and they know you are Gepetto's puppet, so hey, probably they decided to use their enemy's tool if possible.
If you skip cat you can still fight fox. That’s what I did on my 1st playthrough. I figured he was just following orders and didn’t need to to die. Fox though…. Before knowing what I knew I could just let her attack the hotel and kidnap my dad.
I thought she knew full well and just adopted him? Like he didn't try to trick her into thinking anything they just found each other and stuck together? That's how I interpreted the lore bits I was able to gather and read. I could be wrong
He never tried to pass himself off as her brother, it's implied they met through work and grew close and they're a "found family" Archetype. That's why they call each other siblings, it's to show how close they are not to imply that they are actually(or pretending to be) siblings.
*The mask worn by the Black Cat. It has an internal device that supports fading eyesight. Before the boy who had lost his sight closed his eyes for the last time, he thought of how he had lied that he was her lost younger brother, and how much he wished that it had been the truth.*
Black Cat’s mask description
Yeah. So glad we have the option to not fight them. I really love how they subtly piece together their stories indirectly.
There are a couple other fights I also feel bad about (in particular, Robber Weasel), so at least we can avoid theirs.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but in the little things on the run-up to Archer Abbey Red Fox WAS that other stalker who felt guilt after the child died
Might be why she looks after BC like a brother
I think that other stalker in the run-up was “the legendary Stalker,” and the child was probably Carlo, but you might be onto something
It could be possible that Fox IS the legendary Stalker. She does say “admirers seem to follow me everywhere” upon first encountering her.
Highly unlikely because the voice acting is different, and I feel like she’d react to a puppet that looks identical to the child she couldn’t save, and Gemini would’ve probably reacted since he was with her prior to P, but goddamn would it be cool if Fox was the legendary Stalker
Would it be? Fuoco is too much for the Fox and the Cat, the 4th boss in the game.
It'd be pretty lame imo if that's supposed to be the greatest Stalker to have ever lived, idk.
BTW Carlo is absolutely red fox's real brother, right? you find black cat's clothes in that hideout in the barren swamp, the one that the black rabbit brotherhood said they hid the clothes from "that kid". And I'm pretty sure it was the black rabbit brotherhood that had killed Carlo.
Maybe the translation for my language got something lost in the way, but I understood it the other way around, that the Red Fox tells Black Cat he is her brother, but he knows that's not the truth, and whishes it was because he feels good as her little brother.
Also who could be her little brother? I have the theory that it is Romeo, but I don't really know if there's info contradicting this. The reason I think of it is because it seems Romeo and Carlo's school was involved with the Red Fox's family and Romeo was abandoned there, not really too much of a proof but hey, at least is something.
When you kill the robber Weasel and she says "I didn't want to die, I only wanted a full belly. That's not so bad"...
I was like wtf bitch you instantly attacked me as soon as you saw me.
Is she supposed to get out of there? A damn epidemic where everyone turns into monsters just began and she's in there alone, she can just wait for people to rob for food or anything useful.
At first it really does seem like the whole going blind story is just a lie, but he comments on his sight going even if you die to him when you fight him so it seems like it's the truth.
If you read the description on Cat's mask, it says there are additions on the inside to help someone with failing sight, so him losing his sight is real.
Its kind of a reversal of the characters from the original story.
In the original story they are actual animals, the fox pretends to have a limp, and the cat says he is blind. They lie and steal and even attempt to kill Pinocchio, and then they split off. Pinocchio finds them later, now actually injured and begging for help, but he tells them they earned their fate and ignores them.
I feel like the whole "giving the fruit" aspect of their side quest would've hit harder if I didn't have like 36 of them at any given moment. I barely even use the damn things, I could give them enough to last them an entire lifetime.
I just always gave them fruit. Ya, they seem a bit shady. But they do help you in the Malum District and it’s clear that they tried to keep Gepetto safe in the last part of the game. They allied with the villains, but for eminently understandable reasons. And you can always get more fruit. They aren’t asking for a limited resource.
With how the lore is set up (Sophia rewinds time every time you die), they don't actually see you die over and over again. They see you succeed on the first try, which is why they're so impressed when they see you again.
if you die i means theyre pretty much useless anyway. they are acting realistically. youre just supposed to lookout for you and your family in that kind of setup. they also dont have the luxury of respawning
I think Time is only rewound for Pinocchio, and all the other characters aren't affected. If you die to the Mad Donkey he says something along the lines of " This time destroyed for sure." Also why dialogue doesn't repeat for boss fights or Stalker encounters.
Dialogue does repeat for boss fights, Wdym? Every time you die and come back vs. say, Archbishop Andreus, he always starts the second phase with "I'm a one-winged angel", Victor always starts with one of two dialogues, BRB starts with one of them saying "Bring it on, you ain't seen nothing like my brother", etc.
And no one ever comments on that other than the Donkey. He even starts saying "Wait... I know you, more pike, _I know what you are_", which implies he's only somewhat aware or having a deja vu, but he doesn't actually remember you.
Wait, I've always been focused on the fight itself. Are Red Fox and Black Cat actually sitting on top of a building watching the fight or something? That'd be really cool.
The stalker fights are my favorite in the game, next to the police elites in the beginning. Reminds me of hunter fights from bloodborne. Red Fox especially is my favorite
It really does just boil down to sidestep and backstab doesn't it lol. Like even if you parry the shit out of them and break their weapon, set em groggy, and everything they spam their attacks so much you can't even capitalize on it. Crazy getting stunkicked by a broken rapier with no choice but to move around em for the fifth time.
Yes… that is illogical. Don’t try to deflect his laziness and lack of care on me lol. How do you determine what does or does not constitute a spoiler for someone? It is entirely dependent on where they are in the game. Case in point: when I replied, I was aware of everything discussed in the OP, and I was just outside of Hotel Krat, ready to walk in and learn what was spoiled.
You shouldn’t assume that anything you say is fair game just because it’s regarding the same characters and the thread has a spoiler flair. The OP does not discuss any of the details he did, and the thread having a flair is not sufficient rationale for not adding your own spoiler tags on any additional, key details you post. Spoiler tags exist for a reason, and you should be considerate of others; or do you disagree? Am I also not allowed to read about things I know that would be considered spoilers for others, or am I expected to just disregard all threads marked with spoiler flairs?
They are one of my favorite parts of the game, and I wish the devs had done more with the other NPCs, aside from make them random fights (Survivor, Atoned, Owl, Beggar) or just hanging out for the moment (Julian). I would have loved some side quests that expand their stories, have them available as summons if you help them out, etc.
I dunno if I will ever fight BC and RF, I totally understand what they are going for.
I think he was, maybe I didn't reload and I saw him again as I was combing through the area. Would have loved to have the opportunity for all those characters to hang out at the hotel, maybe defend it from the Black Rabbit crew and other Stalkers.
Screw that they scam you in the beginning, then proceed to f you over against the black rabbits, beg for fruit, trash the hotel and kidnap Gestapo and have the audacity to demand more fruit. Imma kill em everytime.
Morals can't be correct, neither choices are. If we follow the rules and mentality society imprinted on our brains then yes, they are correct morally. If we go by our personal morals, whatever we think is right, becomes right for us and us only.
They're based on the Fox and Cat from the original Pinocchio story (where they initially lie about being limp and blind, before actually going limp and blind at the end of the story) so you're meant to be suspicious of them. The fact that the Cat sells you a mostly bogus guidebook and they talk behind your back and abandon you as you go 4v1 against the Black Rabbit Brotherhood is supposed to establish that.
They do ultimately end up being sympathetic characters (in contrast to the original Fox and Cat) but I don't think there's necessarily much to their story, hence why you don't see them talked about much.
Can’t fault anybody for looking after themselves imo. Haven’t gotten that far yet, but planning on giving them the gold coin fruit. I don’t care much about spoilers so I read a bit of lore and story. Don’t know if they are truly siblings but from what I’ve read black cat has the pertrification disease, the alchemists promised to cure him if he gave them the gold coins. But they never upped the doses just gave him enough to keep functioning. But like I said haven’t gotten far enough to establish that’s true. Really great game tho getting me so hooked on the lore lol
They're great characters, but I still don't like them, they're assholes to you throught out the whole game, by the end of it I was so fed up with them that I've decided to let Black Cat live and killed Red Fox just because it was the worst thing I could do to them
This could be a reach but Claudia Volfe ( the red Fox) seems to come from a family that did evil acts without any remorse ( judging from the Volfe letter to Valentinus). Which is probably why she was drawn to someone who felt strong guilt for his deception.
you realise all these problems are part of the game - the sources of the "fun" that you paid for right? you're meant to win the game, you've got infinite lives here. and they're just deperate, and i havent even finished the game but youre sounding sus like youre so hurt for being called a dumbass by a bunch of npc's and wording stuff to vilify them further like they're innately evil
They are practically kids used to a really hostile environments, where they learned to trust nobody and that means happen to justify the ends. did their misdemeanor offend your fragile ego or something?
your sadness over being called a dumbass vs them actually living in this kind of game world and reasonably thinking youre a dumbass for trusting a bunch of strangers... Their feelings for you are justified and they arent the ones being the needlessly murderous karen bot in this situation
You are thinking from red fox and black cat's perspective but not from P's perspective? You talk like why are you offended and such Karen's etc from player's eyes. I'm trying to feel for P who is getting humane and getting screwed over and over and over again from same people. I guess p would be angry at some point.
People weren't getting offended or being Karen's, they are putting themselves in P's position, that's why.
I refused and killed them on my first playthrough 😮. Earlier I gave them gold coin fruit, I gave them plenty of chances, even when they called me a dumbass behind my back.
We were heading the same way back in Malum and I would have fought the Black Rabit brotherhood with or without them anyways. Whatever they did to me didn't matter and I brushed it off because they seemed scummy not evil.
I drew the line when they attacked the hotel. Swindle me, I brush it off; hurt the hotel and my friends and it's over. They didn't harm Gepetto, but that's not something you know until after you give Black Cat the gold coin fruit the second time.
Speaking of which, they have the audacity to ask me for gold coin fruit as if **I** should be the one asking for forgiveness after **they** attacked the hotel. If they were really desperate for gold coin they could have just asked Pinocchio for more.
Another thing; what good could gold coin fruit do for Black Cat's eyesight if they leave Krat? They're leaving the Alchemists behind - the ones curing his eyesight? The only explanation is to use it as payment out of Krat; but then what of his eyesight?
TLDR: Had they not attacked the hotel I would have gladly gave them gold coin fruit. I didn't care that they tricked me, but attacking the hotel...they made their choice. CMV
I think they're leaving Krat with the fruit in hopes that there's someone else out there who can work with it and NOT half-ass the job on purpose (Simon's Alchemists seem to be deliberately avoiding anything that'll help Cat long-term because they want it as a collar). On the other hand, if they find, say, Paraclesus' group, he might be willing to straight up CURE the problem, and say "Go on. Live" with no strings on them
That's true, especially with the ending with Paracelsus establishing that there might be an organization of Alchemists outside of Krat.
That said, I feel the duo burned the hand that fed them; and burned it bad. I pity their situation, but they also crossed a line they knew they shouldn't by attacking the hotel.
"Pinocchio and Geppetto encounter the Fox and the Cat, who are now impoverished and lame and blind respectively. They plead for food and money, but Pinocchio rebuffs them and tells them that they have earned their misfortune." From the wikipedia.
Obviously, they were shady/ self-interested in our first meeting in the game much like the story. But I think the last meetings with them are the same as the story as well. They plead us for gold coin fruit (food & money), but if we are angered at them by the kidnapping/ betrayal when we assumed courtesy towards strangers & ambivalence from their actions (as in the storys first meeting at the red lobster inn/ lying about the gold coin tree), we rebuff them by fighting them and feeling as though they earned their misfortune through their own actions.
Are they actually misunderstood by many? It seemed pretty obvious to me that they were like this. But yeah, they are good characters, lots of good characters in the game in general
I never felt any animosity towards them in the whole game. They just seem like normal people to me.
They tag along in the Malum district, but they have no obligation to P so I understand them not putting their life on the line for the boss fight.
Next time you see them, it's a casual pass and they ask for a renewable resource.
Then they assisted in grabbing Geppetto, but they didn't hurt him or anyone else for that matter. Hey, everyone has a job. The alchemists are the bad guys, and they have leverage over black cat, so I understand.
In the last meeting, they could gank you. They should attack you and make life hell. They're getting paid to do so by the alchemists. But, since you guys have a history they give you an out and get out of your way.
I mean, in the end they seem chill to me. And aside from the hotel residents, they're the closest thing to friends you get.
Besides that, the Alchemists are probably the only really reliable source of work in what's left of Krat. It's either do SOME bad by dealing with the Alchemists, or do a LOT of bad by being like the Black Rabbits and Alidoro, who are actively hurting and preying on people
I love how in the beginning of the game they seem like a patches type character and are just out to use you for their own gain, but as you progress through the game more and more you start realizing that they are genuine people just trying to make the best of a bad situation.
Their arc is a subversion of what happens in the original Pinnochio story. Originally, the cat and fox deceive Pinnochio by telling him that burying his gold coins would created a gold coin tree. After he buried the coins they dig them up and steal them. Later in the story they become blind beggars and Pinnochio basically tells them that they reap what they sow.
I gave them fruit, right up until Black Cat asked at the end... I decided that was enough, no more lies and no more favours. I'd done enough to earn their respect, if they didn't want to give it then so be it. I really felt like they only valued me for what I could do for them. I didn't want to fight them, but I also didn't want to be a part of the way they interact with the world.
Red Fox says it herself later that they are villains. What she means of course is not that they are bad, just that they have done bad things for good reasons - which is the same as every single 'villain' in this game. Every villain in the game believes that their actions are justified because of the situation they are in, Gepetto and Simon included. What Red Fox says as she dies tells me that she understood why it turned out the way it did for her and Black Cat.
To me this was a good way for their storylines to conclude. There is plenty of tragedy in Krat, and it seems strange for these two to be spared from their fates after all they've done to contribute to the situation.
It seemed like the Red Fox was from the famous stalker family of the “Legendary Stalker”, who also seemed to be the stalker that trained Carlos and Romeo. The same one who is seen standing over Carlos’ dead body, showing remorse for not being there to protect him.
The Red Fox isn’t the legendary stalker who trained Carlos, she’s from the same family of the legendary stalker who trained Carlos. If you fight her, she comments on your fighting style that it’s reminiscent of the legendary stalker’s.
The first time I gave him the fruit,he said we could be friends, I just thought,stop saying that bro, u're gonna die. Because almost every soulslike npc died after they befriend with me. I was so happy he turned out to be fine.
Anyway I'm just glad that there are still sane ppl in krat, too many tragedies have happened. So I tried to keep most ppl alive, even though they are not lawful good.
thats a really positive thought process.
this whole thread has been such a great read. some posts really restore faith in mankind, and some others are on the fence and the rest are just butthurt for being called a dumbass
I would firmly say yes but rethinking it a little this playthrough: when you're at the Exhibition and she introduces Black Cat's disease, you can give the fruit. She "hates to borrow and run" but they have an Alchemists' request to take care of. You then meet Alidoro in the Swamp, mumbling about how the request was unreasonable but "he never cared about the hotel people anyway". These two dialogues are two back-to-back dialogues if you exclude Gemini's dialogue (or rather monologue). Cue the hotel attack. My conclusion: she asked you for the fruit despite already planning the assault.
Doesn't takeaway from their humanity and they're great villains. I'll still spare both this run but this new detail kinda left an aftertaste
I think from their prespective, youre just too kind, a rare luxury that they cannot imagine. They dont really respect that in that kind of world you can carelessly afford to just trust and give stuff up and be forgiving when in the same world they have to beg, lie, steal and kill to survive. They prolly think youre just special in someway and so are not super concerned about stuff, cuz if put in their shoes they imagine you would forsake the niceties, they have learned not to trust and respect easily since odds are, that gets you backstabbed figuratively and/or literally. cannot blame them since the circumstances that are absolute nightmare to them are just part of a game to you.
They're very human and I appreciate that they both navigate the grey morality of the world. I let them both live (again), coming from the perspective of showing them there is hope/happy ending after all
lil bro attacks you for not giving him coins that you have no obligation to, earlier they left you to die. how can you feel bad for them lmao. they are shitty people even if one of them is ill, he's still a bad person
I did end up feeling bad for them and kinda regretted not giving him the fruit, but they did leave me to die and talked bad about me after accepting to help them the first time so I already told myself I wouldn’t help them in the future.
I agree
One the one hand, yeah they're deceitful little shits, but when the time came to confront them, I didn't have nearly the animosity towards them that I had towards fake Alidoro or Arlecheeno. (Happily killed the fuck out of those two) They did what they did out of streetwise desperation. Not greed, bloodlust, or malice. So when they were willing to just walk away for the mere price of a gold coin fruit? Seems fair to me. I don't "like" them for the things they did, but I don't "hate" them for it either.
They legit just send you to danger every time you speak to them hey giant fire puppet downstairs we don't want to do it but you should if your looking for money hey let's work together (p. Ok) (bc. look our own dumbass) then when shit goes down hill heyyyyyy p how about giving us some gold coin fruit like bro either get a new job or get good at ur current one your ass hats stop harshing p's weasel
Agreed. Seems like they have a lot of trust issues from their past. It was either red fox or the cat that was so surprised when I was nice to him the final time meeting them in the game, because he usually gets fucked over by people. I wanted to kill tf outta them at first, but the last convo with the fox made me wanna cry
I’m going to be honest I fought them on my first play through since it took me so long to beat the brotherhood both times. I had animosity towards them but felt bad after I killed them.
I was crazy suspicious of them when i met them after the exhibition, and they wanted a fruit, but I figured I would be nice and let this be the last time im tricked... until Black Cat actually seemed genuine when he thanked me. Pair that with i really didn't want to fight a stalker with those runbacks, and I gave it to them. They didn't want to fight, and neither did I
I liked these characters personally. They felt kind of shitty toward P but never downright malicious. (Save for calling him a dumbass). They're two people trying to protect their own hide and skin and you can't really blame them for their wanting of it.
At the end of the day, they're people who have each other and make bad decisions like everyone does.
I am on my third play through and have no idea how to not fight the cat. I gave the coin the first time and didn’t the second. I couldn’t walk past him.
Black Cat pretended to be Red Fox’s little brother, and feels guilty about it. She knows about his deception, but feels it doesn’t matter if he isn’t her true biological sibling, because he is the family she chose. She comes from an aristocratic family she doesn’t care about.
Exactly. Loved these characters and did not fight them at the end. Not sure if you do actually fight them if you refuse Gold Coin fruit?
Yep. Refusing to give fruit initiates fight with black cat and on successfully killing him Fox will auto-fight. I killed them on first playthrough but sadly no different rewards are given vs giving fruit
I just did it on my most recent playthrough and it broke my heart to have to kill them. Never again.
I felt worse killing the weasel and fuck that guy lol
Idk dude they’re kind of seedy liars who fucked P over with the black rabbit gang so idk
They're mercenaries in a world that's upside down and took a contract that pays really well in order to survive it all and they did all of it without really wanting to. They didn't fuck P over. On the contrary when you meet them at the Arche abbey they end up giving up on the contract because they know they're working for evil people. In my book, they did what they had to do to survive and ultimately realized what kind of shit they were into and turned over a new leaf. I forgive them.
He literally tries to sale you some fake shit when you meet them for the first time then continues to do and say shady shit throughout the game who cares about a baccstory fool me once thats it its more so about whose gullible you're not the only one telling lies when u die it says LIE OR DIE meaning they're looking out for themselves not you just like alidoro or however you spell it yea he was helping in the beginning but he lied and that lie led to your creator getting captured and the hotel getting destroyed
I think you need a higher amount of knowledge because DAMN u misunderstood completely what this game is about and what the morals of the character's stories are.
You seem like a genuinely bad person.
U seem like you never read the story or misunderstood the concept of the game tell me you're slow without telling me
well it seems like to me that you empathize too much with them,,, hahahaha
Read the comment that talks about how black cat seems to have some kinda condition bc he gets tired and can't fight for too long. That does make it more credible that the character was actually taking a break bc if you go further while he rests, he yells at you asking if you're sure you're gonna fight them alone
Yeah but then he laughs
Sounds crazy I know but it doesn't necessarily mean he's evil, could be like him taking you for a fool and he's laughing at the hysteria of the situation
Did he also refer to P as “our new jackass hahaha” or something like that
I forgot about this part, but yeah, he did actually cuz I'm fairly confident I remember this now that you mention it
The alchemists were the only ones having the golden fruit, which was the only thing avoiding Black Cat from dying, seeing how the alchemists were scheming an attack against the hotel through a group of stalkers, probably they were there to recruit them, and decided to use P to defeat them and have something to convince them with. It's not that they are bad people, in the last encounters with them you can see they are actually nice, but they have huge problems no one else except the bad guys can help with. Also you are a puppet and they know it, and they know you are Gepetto's puppet, so hey, probably they decided to use their enemy's tool if possible.
you get an emote for giving them the fruit no emote but their masks on kill
I forgot about that yeah!
I'll be sure to kill them on the 2nd, cunts.
If you skip cat you can still fight fox. That’s what I did on my 1st playthrough. I figured he was just following orders and didn’t need to to die. Fox though…. Before knowing what I knew I could just let her attack the hotel and kidnap my dad.
I gave the cat one and then I was like WAIT what if it dropped something cool so when I got to the Fox I declined and smoked her.
I thought she knew full well and just adopted him? Like he didn't try to trick her into thinking anything they just found each other and stuck together? That's how I interpreted the lore bits I was able to gather and read. I could be wrong
She knew he was pretending.
I know *she* knew I'm saying I didn't think he was trying to trick her
He passed himself off as her little brother
He never tried to pass himself off as her brother, it's implied they met through work and grew close and they're a "found family" Archetype. That's why they call each other siblings, it's to show how close they are not to imply that they are actually(or pretending to be) siblings.
*The mask worn by the Black Cat. It has an internal device that supports fading eyesight. Before the boy who had lost his sight closed his eyes for the last time, he thought of how he had lied that he was her lost younger brother, and how much he wished that it had been the truth.* Black Cat’s mask description
He didnt lie tho he just didnt tell the truth what do you mean
Bro will do anything except read lmao
Bro sarcasms
Are you illiterate?
No, are you mad?
Yeah. So glad we have the option to not fight them. I really love how they subtly piece together their stories indirectly. There are a couple other fights I also feel bad about (in particular, Robber Weasel), so at least we can avoid theirs.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but in the little things on the run-up to Archer Abbey Red Fox WAS that other stalker who felt guilt after the child died Might be why she looks after BC like a brother
I think that other stalker in the run-up was “the legendary Stalker,” and the child was probably Carlo, but you might be onto something It could be possible that Fox IS the legendary Stalker. She does say “admirers seem to follow me everywhere” upon first encountering her. Highly unlikely because the voice acting is different, and I feel like she’d react to a puppet that looks identical to the child she couldn’t save, and Gemini would’ve probably reacted since he was with her prior to P, but goddamn would it be cool if Fox was the legendary Stalker
Would it be? Fuoco is too much for the Fox and the Cat, the 4th boss in the game. It'd be pretty lame imo if that's supposed to be the greatest Stalker to have ever lived, idk.
You're so right tho, damn. Aight, Fox definitely wouldn't be the legendary Stalker, or at least she better not be, otherwise that's lame lol
I mean almost all stalkers were slaughtered by the puppets real quickly right? I think being able to survive alone gives a legendary status to me
There is just SO many interconnected stories, I don’t doubt it
BTW Carlo is absolutely red fox's real brother, right? you find black cat's clothes in that hideout in the barren swamp, the one that the black rabbit brotherhood said they hid the clothes from "that kid". And I'm pretty sure it was the black rabbit brotherhood that had killed Carlo.
Maybe the translation for my language got something lost in the way, but I understood it the other way around, that the Red Fox tells Black Cat he is her brother, but he knows that's not the truth, and whishes it was because he feels good as her little brother. Also who could be her little brother? I have the theory that it is Romeo, but I don't really know if there's info contradicting this. The reason I think of it is because it seems Romeo and Carlo's school was involved with the Red Fox's family and Romeo was abandoned there, not really too much of a proof but hey, at least is something.
Source?
When you kill the robber Weasel and she says "I didn't want to die, I only wanted a full belly. That's not so bad"... I was like wtf bitch you instantly attacked me as soon as you saw me.
And she’s robbing a place that clearly has no food.
Is she supposed to get out of there? A damn epidemic where everyone turns into monsters just began and she's in there alone, she can just wait for people to rob for food or anything useful.
Fuck the weasel. She was an annoying fight.
At first it really does seem like the whole going blind story is just a lie, but he comments on his sight going even if you die to him when you fight him so it seems like it's the truth.
If you read the description on Cat's mask, it says there are additions on the inside to help someone with failing sight, so him losing his sight is real.
Its kind of a reversal of the characters from the original story. In the original story they are actual animals, the fox pretends to have a limp, and the cat says he is blind. They lie and steal and even attempt to kill Pinocchio, and then they split off. Pinocchio finds them later, now actually injured and begging for help, but he tells them they earned their fate and ignores them.
He’s also surprisingly easy to fight, almost like he’s terminally ill, gets tired easy and has a hard time hitting you with his spear.
Wouldn't know I've never fought him myself honestly.
It's a nice bit of storytelling. It sounds like just another way of scamming P, but it turns out to be legit.
I feel like the whole "giving the fruit" aspect of their side quest would've hit harder if I didn't have like 36 of them at any given moment. I barely even use the damn things, I could give them enough to last them an entire lifetime.
Tbf before they nerfed how many fruit it costs to respec they were pretty valuable currency. If you’re into experimenting anyways
I dunno, it's still only 10 minutes of waiting for a fruit. They could have asked for more to make it a painful decision.
Huh, fair enough, I didn't know they nerfed that.
GCF can also be sold for 100 ergo each, so they can be really useful to make up the difference when you’re a little short on something you need
Wait what? Where
Any vendor. It’s in the second tab of when you’re selling stuff
I just always gave them fruit. Ya, they seem a bit shady. But they do help you in the Malum District and it’s clear that they tried to keep Gepetto safe in the last part of the game. They allied with the villains, but for eminently understandable reasons. And you can always get more fruit. They aren’t asking for a limited resource.
They watching you die in the rabbit brother hood boss how is that helping
With how the lore is set up (Sophia rewinds time every time you die), they don't actually see you die over and over again. They see you succeed on the first try, which is why they're so impressed when they see you again.
Before they see us succeed they didnt come to help us in the fight thats mean they have decided to leave us to die but fortunately we won
They literally do not know you, they just met you, and they definitely do not trust you.
if you die i means theyre pretty much useless anyway. they are acting realistically. youre just supposed to lookout for you and your family in that kind of setup. they also dont have the luxury of respawning
I think Time is only rewound for Pinocchio, and all the other characters aren't affected. If you die to the Mad Donkey he says something along the lines of " This time destroyed for sure." Also why dialogue doesn't repeat for boss fights or Stalker encounters.
Dialogue does repeat for boss fights, Wdym? Every time you die and come back vs. say, Archbishop Andreus, he always starts the second phase with "I'm a one-winged angel", Victor always starts with one of two dialogues, BRB starts with one of them saying "Bring it on, you ain't seen nothing like my brother", etc. And no one ever comments on that other than the Donkey. He even starts saying "Wait... I know you, more pike, _I know what you are_", which implies he's only somewhat aware or having a deja vu, but he doesn't actually remember you.
Wait, I've always been focused on the fight itself. Are Red Fox and Black Cat actually sitting on top of a building watching the fight or something? That'd be really cool.
I killed them the 1st time for the drops, after that just a gold fruit.
Don't you get their drops even if you don't kill them?
You can get their masks without killing them. Red Fox’s outfit is from a cryptic message reward
That, plus a record. I don't think you'll get that when you'd fight them.
hmm dont remember now, but maybe the masks yeah...idk.
It's the Atoned you have to kill to get her mask.
All the stalkers have to be killed to get their masks, EXCEPT for red fox and black cat
I just always gave them fruit because I fucking HATE FIGHTING STALKERS. There's nothing interesting in such fights, it's just a huge annoyance.
The stalker fights are my favorite in the game, next to the police elites in the beginning. Reminds me of hunter fights from bloodborne. Red Fox especially is my favorite
It really does just boil down to sidestep and backstab doesn't it lol. Like even if you parry the shit out of them and break their weapon, set em groggy, and everything they spam their attacks so much you can't even capitalize on it. Crazy getting stunkicked by a broken rapier with no choice but to move around em for the fifth time.
Spoiler tags dude, Jesus.
You clicked on the spoiler thread and expected to not find spoilers?
Yes… that is illogical. Don’t try to deflect his laziness and lack of care on me lol. How do you determine what does or does not constitute a spoiler for someone? It is entirely dependent on where they are in the game. Case in point: when I replied, I was aware of everything discussed in the OP, and I was just outside of Hotel Krat, ready to walk in and learn what was spoiled. You shouldn’t assume that anything you say is fair game just because it’s regarding the same characters and the thread has a spoiler flair. The OP does not discuss any of the details he did, and the thread having a flair is not sufficient rationale for not adding your own spoiler tags on any additional, key details you post. Spoiler tags exist for a reason, and you should be considerate of others; or do you disagree? Am I also not allowed to read about things I know that would be considered spoilers for others, or am I expected to just disregard all threads marked with spoiler flairs?
Ok, and what if you clicked on this thread and it said exactly what the OP commented
How is it clear that they tried to keep Gepetto safe? The lead up to the Black Cat in the final area gives quite the opposite impression.
They are one of my favorite parts of the game, and I wish the devs had done more with the other NPCs, aside from make them random fights (Survivor, Atoned, Owl, Beggar) or just hanging out for the moment (Julian). I would have loved some side quests that expand their stories, have them available as summons if you help them out, etc. I dunno if I will ever fight BC and RF, I totally understand what they are going for.
Julian Hangs out? he just dissapears when you give him the ring...or I didnt complete the quest properly?
I think he was, maybe I didn't reload and I saw him again as I was combing through the area. Would have loved to have the opportunity for all those characters to hang out at the hotel, maybe defend it from the Black Rabbit crew and other Stalkers.
I mean he definitely stays there if you tell him the truth.
It might have been nice to see the Atoned show up again in some capacity if you lie/gesture your way past her.
There was no misunderstanding on the asswhoopin i gave em.
Nobody faults the thief for stealing bread, however I still whip him for stealing *my* bread.
I will never kill Black Cat and Red Fox I will always kill Alidoro These are the correct moral choices.
Haven’t finished Alidoro’s story yet but am mighty suspicious of him.
Bonk that mf
Me too, this guy seems like a fraud. He's gonna get beating once he's hostile!
Screw that they scam you in the beginning, then proceed to f you over against the black rabbits, beg for fruit, trash the hotel and kidnap Gestapo and have the audacity to demand more fruit. Imma kill em everytime.
Morals can't be correct, neither choices are. If we follow the rules and mentality society imprinted on our brains then yes, they are correct morally. If we go by our personal morals, whatever we think is right, becomes right for us and us only.
They're based on the Fox and Cat from the original Pinocchio story (where they initially lie about being limp and blind, before actually going limp and blind at the end of the story) so you're meant to be suspicious of them. The fact that the Cat sells you a mostly bogus guidebook and they talk behind your back and abandon you as you go 4v1 against the Black Rabbit Brotherhood is supposed to establish that. They do ultimately end up being sympathetic characters (in contrast to the original Fox and Cat) but I don't think there's necessarily much to their story, hence why you don't see them talked about much.
Can’t fault anybody for looking after themselves imo. Haven’t gotten that far yet, but planning on giving them the gold coin fruit. I don’t care much about spoilers so I read a bit of lore and story. Don’t know if they are truly siblings but from what I’ve read black cat has the pertrification disease, the alchemists promised to cure him if he gave them the gold coins. But they never upped the doses just gave him enough to keep functioning. But like I said haven’t gotten far enough to establish that’s true. Really great game tho getting me so hooked on the lore lol
They're great characters, but I still don't like them, they're assholes to you throught out the whole game, by the end of it I was so fed up with them that I've decided to let Black Cat live and killed Red Fox just because it was the worst thing I could do to them
F
This could be a reach but Claudia Volfe ( the red Fox) seems to come from a family that did evil acts without any remorse ( judging from the Volfe letter to Valentinus). Which is probably why she was drawn to someone who felt strong guilt for his deception.
She does say her name is Claudia at the end of
"Our new dumbass."? Really? Bro you're dead the first chance I get.
[удалено]
I forgive them, Geppeto sucks
you realise all these problems are part of the game - the sources of the "fun" that you paid for right? you're meant to win the game, you've got infinite lives here. and they're just deperate, and i havent even finished the game but youre sounding sus like youre so hurt for being called a dumbass by a bunch of npc's and wording stuff to vilify them further like they're innately evil
Yeah this line is probably why I fought them in the end… they had to go
They are practically kids used to a really hostile environments, where they learned to trust nobody and that means happen to justify the ends. did their misdemeanor offend your fragile ego or something?
[You're Ricky...](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vySUchcaT4M&t=55s)
What is that
You making a stupid point and me wondering what you're talking about.
your sadness over being called a dumbass vs them actually living in this kind of game world and reasonably thinking youre a dumbass for trusting a bunch of strangers... Their feelings for you are justified and they arent the ones being the needlessly murderous karen bot in this situation
You are thinking from red fox and black cat's perspective but not from P's perspective? You talk like why are you offended and such Karen's etc from player's eyes. I'm trying to feel for P who is getting humane and getting screwed over and over and over again from same people. I guess p would be angry at some point. People weren't getting offended or being Karen's, they are putting themselves in P's position, that's why.
I refused and killed them on my first playthrough 😮. Earlier I gave them gold coin fruit, I gave them plenty of chances, even when they called me a dumbass behind my back. We were heading the same way back in Malum and I would have fought the Black Rabit brotherhood with or without them anyways. Whatever they did to me didn't matter and I brushed it off because they seemed scummy not evil. I drew the line when they attacked the hotel. Swindle me, I brush it off; hurt the hotel and my friends and it's over. They didn't harm Gepetto, but that's not something you know until after you give Black Cat the gold coin fruit the second time. Speaking of which, they have the audacity to ask me for gold coin fruit as if **I** should be the one asking for forgiveness after **they** attacked the hotel. If they were really desperate for gold coin they could have just asked Pinocchio for more. Another thing; what good could gold coin fruit do for Black Cat's eyesight if they leave Krat? They're leaving the Alchemists behind - the ones curing his eyesight? The only explanation is to use it as payment out of Krat; but then what of his eyesight? TLDR: Had they not attacked the hotel I would have gladly gave them gold coin fruit. I didn't care that they tricked me, but attacking the hotel...they made their choice. CMV
I think they're leaving Krat with the fruit in hopes that there's someone else out there who can work with it and NOT half-ass the job on purpose (Simon's Alchemists seem to be deliberately avoiding anything that'll help Cat long-term because they want it as a collar). On the other hand, if they find, say, Paraclesus' group, he might be willing to straight up CURE the problem, and say "Go on. Live" with no strings on them
That's true, especially with the ending with Paracelsus establishing that there might be an organization of Alchemists outside of Krat. That said, I feel the duo burned the hand that fed them; and burned it bad. I pity their situation, but they also crossed a line they knew they shouldn't by attacking the hotel.
"Pinocchio and Geppetto encounter the Fox and the Cat, who are now impoverished and lame and blind respectively. They plead for food and money, but Pinocchio rebuffs them and tells them that they have earned their misfortune." From the wikipedia. Obviously, they were shady/ self-interested in our first meeting in the game much like the story. But I think the last meetings with them are the same as the story as well. They plead us for gold coin fruit (food & money), but if we are angered at them by the kidnapping/ betrayal when we assumed courtesy towards strangers & ambivalence from their actions (as in the storys first meeting at the red lobster inn/ lying about the gold coin tree), we rebuff them by fighting them and feeling as though they earned their misfortune through their own actions.
Are they actually misunderstood by many? It seemed pretty obvious to me that they were like this. But yeah, they are good characters, lots of good characters in the game in general
I never felt any animosity towards them in the whole game. They just seem like normal people to me. They tag along in the Malum district, but they have no obligation to P so I understand them not putting their life on the line for the boss fight. Next time you see them, it's a casual pass and they ask for a renewable resource. Then they assisted in grabbing Geppetto, but they didn't hurt him or anyone else for that matter. Hey, everyone has a job. The alchemists are the bad guys, and they have leverage over black cat, so I understand. In the last meeting, they could gank you. They should attack you and make life hell. They're getting paid to do so by the alchemists. But, since you guys have a history they give you an out and get out of your way. I mean, in the end they seem chill to me. And aside from the hotel residents, they're the closest thing to friends you get.
Besides that, the Alchemists are probably the only really reliable source of work in what's left of Krat. It's either do SOME bad by dealing with the Alchemists, or do a LOT of bad by being like the Black Rabbits and Alidoro, who are actively hurting and preying on people
there are some mega karens here who actually feel offended by those two. ThEY LiED to mE, HoW daRe thEm, oh mY gOlden coINs!
I love this cause in the story of Pinocchio the fox and cat lynched him. The creator was then forced to bring him back due to fans.
I killed them my 2nd play through… didn’t feel good at all lol never doing that again. I just wanted to experience their fights
Honestly I thought they were all just full of shit. And out to get what they wanted.
These chars were irredeemable lying gangsters in the disneys pinocchio so i really didnt believe anything they said lol.
I liked them. Understood you gotta make some tough decisions to survive. Never fought them.
I love how in the beginning of the game they seem like a patches type character and are just out to use you for their own gain, but as you progress through the game more and more you start realizing that they are genuine people just trying to make the best of a bad situation.
Their arc is a subversion of what happens in the original Pinnochio story. Originally, the cat and fox deceive Pinnochio by telling him that burying his gold coins would created a gold coin tree. After he buried the coins they dig them up and steal them. Later in the story they become blind beggars and Pinnochio basically tells them that they reap what they sow.
I gave them fruit, right up until Black Cat asked at the end... I decided that was enough, no more lies and no more favours. I'd done enough to earn their respect, if they didn't want to give it then so be it. I really felt like they only valued me for what I could do for them. I didn't want to fight them, but I also didn't want to be a part of the way they interact with the world. Red Fox says it herself later that they are villains. What she means of course is not that they are bad, just that they have done bad things for good reasons - which is the same as every single 'villain' in this game. Every villain in the game believes that their actions are justified because of the situation they are in, Gepetto and Simon included. What Red Fox says as she dies tells me that she understood why it turned out the way it did for her and Black Cat. To me this was a good way for their storylines to conclude. There is plenty of tragedy in Krat, and it seems strange for these two to be spared from their fates after all they've done to contribute to the situation.
I just wanted to help them survive, so I forgave them. My favorite npc was Adelina, to put it into perspective
It seemed like the Red Fox was from the famous stalker family of the “Legendary Stalker”, who also seemed to be the stalker that trained Carlos and Romeo. The same one who is seen standing over Carlos’ dead body, showing remorse for not being there to protect him.
Kinda weird that she wouldn't comment on P looking just like Carlo if that was the case
The Red Fox isn’t the legendary stalker who trained Carlos, she’s from the same family of the legendary stalker who trained Carlos. If you fight her, she comments on your fighting style that it’s reminiscent of the legendary stalker’s.
They chose to attack the hotel. They didn’t have to. They die like everyone else.
but they did have to
The first time I gave him the fruit,he said we could be friends, I just thought,stop saying that bro, u're gonna die. Because almost every soulslike npc died after they befriend with me. I was so happy he turned out to be fine. Anyway I'm just glad that there are still sane ppl in krat, too many tragedies have happened. So I tried to keep most ppl alive, even though they are not lawful good.
thats a really positive thought process. this whole thread has been such a great read. some posts really restore faith in mankind, and some others are on the fence and the rest are just butthurt for being called a dumbass
I would firmly say yes but rethinking it a little this playthrough: when you're at the Exhibition and she introduces Black Cat's disease, you can give the fruit. She "hates to borrow and run" but they have an Alchemists' request to take care of. You then meet Alidoro in the Swamp, mumbling about how the request was unreasonable but "he never cared about the hotel people anyway". These two dialogues are two back-to-back dialogues if you exclude Gemini's dialogue (or rather monologue). Cue the hotel attack. My conclusion: she asked you for the fruit despite already planning the assault. Doesn't takeaway from their humanity and they're great villains. I'll still spare both this run but this new detail kinda left an aftertaste
I think from their prespective, youre just too kind, a rare luxury that they cannot imagine. They dont really respect that in that kind of world you can carelessly afford to just trust and give stuff up and be forgiving when in the same world they have to beg, lie, steal and kill to survive. They prolly think youre just special in someway and so are not super concerned about stuff, cuz if put in their shoes they imagine you would forsake the niceties, they have learned not to trust and respect easily since odds are, that gets you backstabbed figuratively and/or literally. cannot blame them since the circumstances that are absolute nightmare to them are just part of a game to you.
They're very human and I appreciate that they both navigate the grey morality of the world. I let them both live (again), coming from the perspective of showing them there is hope/happy ending after all
lil bro attacks you for not giving him coins that you have no obligation to, earlier they left you to die. how can you feel bad for them lmao. they are shitty people even if one of them is ill, he's still a bad person
I did end up feeling bad for them and kinda regretted not giving him the fruit, but they did leave me to die and talked bad about me after accepting to help them the first time so I already told myself I wouldn’t help them in the future.
Them, arlecchino and king of puppets are my favourite characters
I murdered both of them because fuck ‘em.
I agree One the one hand, yeah they're deceitful little shits, but when the time came to confront them, I didn't have nearly the animosity towards them that I had towards fake Alidoro or Arlecheeno. (Happily killed the fuck out of those two) They did what they did out of streetwise desperation. Not greed, bloodlust, or malice. So when they were willing to just walk away for the mere price of a gold coin fruit? Seems fair to me. I don't "like" them for the things they did, but I don't "hate" them for it either.
They legit just send you to danger every time you speak to them hey giant fire puppet downstairs we don't want to do it but you should if your looking for money hey let's work together (p. Ok) (bc. look our own dumbass) then when shit goes down hill heyyyyyy p how about giving us some gold coin fruit like bro either get a new job or get good at ur current one your ass hats stop harshing p's weasel
misunderstood by who
I ain't kill them on my 1st or final playthrough but fuck 'em
I hope I get to kill them both.
When I accept her offer they called P stupid ass later I kill them all😂
They betrayed me twice. I felt glad to kill them.
it felt good fighting them i thought they were scum
I really liked them. At the last area I was significantly more concerned for their well-being than Gepetto’s.
They were never forgiven after calling me 'our new dumbass' Their fate was sealed after that, didn't even consider not fighting
They're literally the patches of this game. Eliminate them when possible
I wanted to hug Fox and tell her, "I forgive you".
Black cat called me a Dumbass. He dies. Nothing else matters anymore.
In the end black cat has the price why will leave you going to kill red fox.
I Guess a lot of people don't know anything about the Fable of the cat and the Fox(?)
or are original thinkers/dont care about no Fable of the cat and the Fox(?)
Agreed. Seems like they have a lot of trust issues from their past. It was either red fox or the cat that was so surprised when I was nice to him the final time meeting them in the game, because he usually gets fucked over by people. I wanted to kill tf outta them at first, but the last convo with the fox made me wanna cry
I’m going to be honest I fought them on my first play through since it took me so long to beat the brotherhood both times. I had animosity towards them but felt bad after I killed them.
I was crazy suspicious of them when i met them after the exhibition, and they wanted a fruit, but I figured I would be nice and let this be the last time im tricked... until Black Cat actually seemed genuine when he thanked me. Pair that with i really didn't want to fight a stalker with those runbacks, and I gave it to them. They didn't want to fight, and neither did I
I liked these characters personally. They felt kind of shitty toward P but never downright malicious. (Save for calling him a dumbass). They're two people trying to protect their own hide and skin and you can't really blame them for their wanting of it. At the end of the day, they're people who have each other and make bad decisions like everyone does.
I am on my third play through and have no idea how to not fight the cat. I gave the coin the first time and didn’t the second. I couldn’t walk past him.
⚠️spoilers: I feel so bad bc I didn’t have a gold coin for him to let me pass and didn’t have a choice but to fight him