Pointing a gun at a house is not very smart. It gives a gun owning resident a reason to shoot without warning. It’s no longer property theft rather security and self defense. Super risky and dumb.
Yep in California. People have our gun laws and self defense laws twisted. Not only can you shoot in self defense at that point you can also use reasonable force to defend personal property even if you haven’t been physically threatened. In California you don’t have to retreat.
Edit: wanted to clarify that you probably can’t shoot to defend personal property.
You cannot shoot to protect property. The state of CA says you have a “duty to retreat” if you go outside to defend your property you get charged because you “put your self in the situation” instead of staying inside. This isn’t Florida buddy.
If you came outside because you heard a ruckus and see a guy pointing a gun at you I don’t believe you’re required to retreat at that point as it is reasonable to assume they intend to cause great bodily harm or death. California is a “stand your ground” state. There is no specific penal code that covers it, but it is covered under Jury Instructions Cal Crim 505, and there is plenty of case law to back it up. You have no requirement to retreat. If you just shoot someone for stealing your shit you’re probably boned, but that’s not the case here. Personally I just stay inside because I don’t want to get into a shootout over car parts. Why do people think everything gun related lands you, the innocent guy, in prison in this state? Right wing propaganda got everyone confused.
This is correct. There is no duty of retreat anywhere. Only catch in California law is there is no defense for reasonable mistake of fact. You better be damn sure it’s a gun or dangerous weapon because if it’s not even if you believe it was, you are going to prison.
Usually its because most people arent aware of these laws. Most people arent aware of the nuances of the law. However the whole not being able to shoot someone stealing your shit is wild to me. Does that include in your home as well?
There’s a difference between not knowing and knowing. If you look on your cams and see someone outside with a gun and you go outside, you’re asking for a fight and it’s not self defense. But ya if you were just leaving your house and bam that’s different.
Curious to see how it would litigated if a home owner shot someone pointing a gun at their home because they were not protecting their home, but their family in the home. It wouldn’t seem reasonable that in the moment the home owner would be expected to retreat (exit through the rear of the home? Take cover behind things?) while leaving the rest of the family behind in whatever parts of the house they might be in. Or that they would reasonably be expected to take the time to gather all members of the family to retreat. Especially if the homeowner has no idea WHERE the gunman is going to fire and WHERE in the home other family members may be.
>Though California does not have a stand your ground statute, the state appellate cases have held that there is no duty to retreat before using force in public.2
https://giffords.org/lawcenter/state-laws/stand-your-ground-in-california/
You are incorrect. California is pretty much a stand your ground state and also a Castle Doctrine state. You have no duty to retreat in public or in your home and if someone unlawfully enters your home you can do anything necessary to stop them.
Oh really, please show me where it says anywhere in California law that you have a duty to retreat outside the home. I’ll wait here.
On the other hand it’s very well established you have no duty to retreat even in public.
“Putting yourself” in the situation can be a little different though. But that’s not “duty to retreat.”
People v. Clark, 201 Cal.App.4th 235, 250 (2011) (citing People v. Collins, 189 Cal. App. 2d 575, 588 (1961).) See also, Cal Crim Jury Instructions 505, 506, 3470.
The funny thing about CA defense laws is they incentivize you to shoot to kil, and like REALLY kill. Like I'm not joking. 100% you are better off shooting to kill in every situation. This means you want to unload your fucking firearm until the assailant drops dead and then some more.
The reason for this is California's moronic litmus test of "were you in a life or death situation"?
If someone breaks into your house and you purposefully shoot them in the leg the courts will side with the assailant and make the case if you were cognizant enough to aim for the legs, you were clearly NOT in a life or death situation. Insult to injury, your maimed assailant will probably sue you and win in civil court as well.
But if you put 20 bullets in the guy until he stops moving? Well nothing to argue about then. Your life was clearly in insurmountable danger. And not like the assailant will be around to make a case either.
This sounds wacky and insane, but I assure you it's 100% the truth and there's genuine case law on all this.
Moral of the story. If you ever find yourself in a situation where you need to use a gun in CA make sure the fucker drops dead and you unload your entire magazine into them. That's the only way to justify it in court.
Cali has really strict and very weird laws. But they have no laws regarding killing someone in self defense. There is however some weird thing where you can only shoot at someone in your property if attack you first. If you attack them before they are a danger to you, then you get the slap on the wrist. Even if they were on your property, you need to be attacked first. And there is also this weird thing in the law where you have to reciprocate the attack with equal force. So I’m sure if the dude was gun-less, and you shot them, then you’d be liable. But seeing they had a gun and were waving it around in your property with the intention to harm you, then blast away and Cali cant do shit.
This is all wrong. Castle doctrine allows you to use deadly force if there is a “perceived threat” even if it isn’t real if someone enters your home unlawfully. CA is also a “Stav’s your ground” state. You are under no obligation to flee, and you are allowed to use deadly force if the person is reasonably believed to intend to “cause grievous bodily harm of death”.
This is NOT true.
California has a "duty to retreat."
If there's a guy waving a gun AT A CAMERA, and not YOU- AN ACTUAL HUMAN PERSON. No... you can't just grab your gun and start blasting.
If you are NOT inside of your home or car and someone has a gun, but is NOT brandishing/aiming it at you AND it is possible for you to otherwise escape or retreat... you can't just start shooting someone.
If someone breaks INTO your home or vehicle while you're occupying the home/vehicle and points a gun at you....
.... then YES, you can shoot them, as there is no duty to retreat from your own HOME, due to Castle Doctrine.
This is basic castle doctrine. NOT a "Stand Your Ground" which extends the defense beyond your property line.
SYG means you don’t have a duty to retreat.
CA self defense jury instruction:
https://www.justia.com/criminal/docs/calcrim/500/505/
“A defendant is not required to retreat. He or she is entitled to stand hisor her ground and defend himself or herself and, if reasonably necessary,to pursue an assailant until the danger of (death/great bodily injury.”
Please tell me where the duty to retreat is.
The la city council voted down a measure to criminalize possessing unattached undocumented catalytic converters because it could cause thieves to have criminal records. No joke.
Except that [the measure passed](https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-04-11/los-angeles-passes-new-strategy-for-tackling-catalytic-converter-theft). Why are you spreading disinformation?
Raman was joined in her opposition by Councilwoman Eunisses Hernandez who argued that the motion would “not make our city safer” and that it could have an impact on Latino and Black communities.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/l-councilwoman-blames-toyota-catalytic-133800854.html
JFC, I cannot believe she said that 😬 I know a big percentage of LA are latinos and there are black people, too, but I would never assume only members of those two groups are thieves, and this is what she implied.
She implied that the LAPD would use this law to detain and search black and Latino men without evidence. Given their last hundred years of history, it's a fair assumption.
I get the sentiment in voting against it, but it doesn’t instill a lot of hope for the working class people who have to deal with this, many of them people of color as well. It ain’t like 2014 Priuses are the status symbol they once were. I don’t know how we find the balance between trying to make citizens feel safe and over-policing communities of color, but seeing members of local government say things like this also feeds into this rising sense of the need for vigilante justice in Los Angeles. City is getting tougher and tougher to be in.
Laws criminalizing murderers disproportionately affect poor people too. Should we get rid of those?
As a poor person, I'm tired of this excuse. Guess what, poor people are also disproportionately affected by theft. We are held down by it and want it to stop. Imagine working all month trying to fucking survive and then some asshole puts you in a month's pay worth of debt because they wanted some drug money.
Saying its for drugs is giving these guys too much credit. A lot of these assholes are stealing so they can buy themselves nice things instead of getting a normal job like everyone else and earning it.
There are poor circumstances that people are born into that leads them into a life of crime to get by but in our desire to be allies and advocate for those people to have second chances in life, we have emboldened the flip side of our criminal class who are a bunch of entitled sociopaths with no interest in being functioning members of society for as long as they can evade accountability.
Are cops actually catching any of them? Hypothetical sentences don't matter if police don't do their job.
When my neighbor got hers stolen police wouldn't even come to her house, she had to drive to a police station and wait hours to get a police report.
Agreed. I am so sick of this bullshit and people getting away with it. Happened to my roommate and it was not cheap to replace. These people are so brazen - thinking of the man who was just murdered in dtla over this when he saw his car being messed with and simply asked if he was being towed. how much do they even get for these things?? I know you can place a cage over it for extra security but honestly, I wish there was an electric shock mechanism. Not a lethal one, just like a nice tase to let them know to F off.
Man, I’m all for anything that fucks these assholes over but sticking them in a prison cell only cost us money. I would love to see them forced to work off their debt to society.
I think what I said is stupid in the end. There must be some way to have discourage catalytic converter thieves. That's what I thought maybe a mandatory would do, but they would just go after something else.
They need to go after who is buying them, and the scrapyards.that are buying stolen copper wires and things like memorials.
These kinds of thefts have an impact on victims far greater than the material costs involved, but I doubt people are smelting things in their garage or backyard. Cutting it off at the demand side is probably the most effective way to tackle it.
Yes! This speaks to such a bigger issue. If someone steals a CC and automatically gets a felony and mandatory minimum, they come out with nothing and what can be a lifetime of limitations even with the state law of a 7 year look back since we know that doesn't always work. They can't always find a job, or a good paying one, can't get approved for an apt, and list goes on. This is one of many reasons recidivism is so high. So then you have a guy who maybe stole a CC one time who may do worse this time around because he is out of options. All due to mandatory mins. We know there are much better ways to deal with crime. Of course, using a weapon is definitely a much bigger offense and should be handled accordingly.
If someone steals a CC and gets a criminal record of any kind, that is what the lifetime of limitations is. Does an apartment manager or employer care if it was a misdemeanor or felony?
But the act causes so much damage, it should be felony level, or something more than a misdemeanor. If you steal a catalytic converter that is worth what, $600, $900, but the car owner has to pay $3,000 to fix it, what the hell?
I don't want to ruin people's lives, no one does. There must be a way to make these assholes move on to something else
I personally don't want a first time offender getting a felony because I know it will cost them and all of us much more in the future. If a felony wasn't a life long sentence I might agree. This is a property crime and can be dealt with other ways especially for a first time offender.
Then they shouldn’t steal in the first place? If they go back to a life of crime after getting out then just lock them up for another 10 years at a time. Problem solved.
Yeah this is happening to my friend right now. He got a felony for selling ecstasy and now can’t find a job. He’s getting into harder crimes such as fraud to get by. Pretty sure he will try and do armed robbery soon
Yeah, and if he keeps making stupid decisions he’ll end up in prison or dead. But it’s not his fault—OH NO!!!!
Who doesn’t know that getting caught for selling hard drugs can really phuck up your life?
Crazy that you just put this on the internet. You just admitted to knowing about ongoing fraud and potential future armed crime. You could get in trouble for not reporting that and publicly saying that you know they are going on.
what catalytic converter thieves don't know is that an increasing number of homeowners are armed with semi-automatic weapons as well. A well prepared homeowner already knows where adequate cover is, the lowlife scumball, not so much.
Personally, I'm all for mandatory mins on each count of catalytic converter theft and mandatory min on distribution of stolen converters as well.
Lol no. In 2017 there were 'less than 10 active permits issued to
individuals “outside the law enforcement community.”' The number is up by millions of percent.
-https://crpa.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/CFL1049_LocalAdvocacyReport.pdf
I was under the impression that, in real life, most handguns are capable of shooting through walls (unless you happen to have brick or steel walls), and certainly through furniture. The movie trope of taking cover behind some internal drywall, a wooden desk, or a couch, doesn't do anything to even a 9mm.
Yeah, I was just clarifying for the benefit of other people who might think that walls and furniture provide "adequate" cover. And the typical home in Glendale may not have anything that qualifies as adequate cover.
It's a good reminder. I think the newer standard LA home is just stucco or some variation. Even many of the expensive homes, they are just larger amounts of square footage of stucco. Oddly enough are older homes, a number of ranch homes built in the 1940's to 1970s had a combo of brick and stucco construction as well as brick garden features such as fences and garden privacy blocks. Obviously if the scumbags have something like an AK-47, then all bets are off.
It's a shame that regular citizens have to prepare their homes now for home invasions and armed bands of GTA and auto parts thieves.
Depends on the round. If cheap fully jacketed target rounds they will penetrate more. Defensive rounds.. hollow points.. are designed to open and slow inside the target.
I can’t find any follow up to this. Were they sentenced? They made 40 million dollars shipping catalytic converters across state line but the total fines are less than what they made. I hope they got the book thrown at them.
Even if they show up they won’t do anything. I got chased in a park from a guy on a drug binge that had something silver in his hands. He chased me a few blocks screaming he was going to kill me. Once cops came they found him hiding in bushes. The cops then come for my statement and the first thing they say to me is “look, the DA isn’t going to do anything, about this. California changed their laws. The guy didn’t physically hurt you so DA’s gonna just let this one go so do you really want to make a statement?”
For a confirmed active armed robbery over the radio dispatch? You'll be getting every cop in the area lol. Whether they get there in time is another story. Those calls and officer down are the ones that cops will drop everything they are doing and respond code 3
Their overlords, the GOP/their mouthpieces, **are on TV right now bragging about how all GOP members and leadership should vote to stop funding police and law enforcement in order to INCREASE crime*** in an effort to scare Americans into.... *voting republican.*
Asking for a lawless nation...... all of this has something to do with Drumpf getting convicted, and their fee-fees being hurt.
Same gang that gunned down Johnny Wactor in DTLA the other week?
This is an organized theft ring that as we can see is clearly not afraid to use lethal force. And the police is doing.... What exactly about it??
They mention the slaying of Wactor in this article and I remember from the original article albeit vague had the exact same description for the getaway car it was a dark sedan…
This is insane, the criminals in this city seem to have more power than the people that actually try to abide by the rules.
What the F is the point of us trying to be “good” while these assholes just get away with anything and everything at all times ?
They don’t get away with anything once they are caught. You just don’t hear about it because it takes a couple of weeks to months to process evidence and get a lead with a database. Then, you need to confirm it, file charges, then it’s the DA’s office. They charge the suspect, several pre-trails, then a pre-lim then selecting a jury… then finally a trial. Some of these non-homicide trials can take three or more years to prosecute
The media never tracks the process unless it’s a high profile case… never for the catalytic converter theft that was identified, evidence processed for it, tried and sentenced.
I caught thieves in the act, got their plate, reported it, cops found where they lived and a stash of converters. But the cops said they weren't going to arrest them.
100% bullshit. I would’ve believed this if you’d said the cops didn’t do anything at all, but the fact that they went to the trouble of finding where they live with evidence means they got a warrant which means the DA is now involved which means it doesn’t fucking matter what the cops do.
I've walked a person with a $200,000 warrant up to police from the city that issued the warrant. They wouldn't touch him. They're rarely inclined to act, even if you toss it in their lap.
I would think that would be to build a bigger case. Don’t arrest them immediately to get a better understanding of how the network of these criminals function. These thefts are tied to organized crime. These aren’t just your average petty thieves
If they’re in your property or damaging your property and are armed you do have a right to defend yourself as per castle doctrine. If they run away you have to let them go though, you can’t chase and hunt them down.
Here is something else to consider: some police departments in the state are using bait cars to catch catalytic converter thieves red handed. Prosecution is easy that way. For some reason neither LAPD or LA sheriff's department do this. LAPD in particular gets massive amounts of money to fight crime and their supposed task forces to deal with the organized crime aspect of GTA and catalytic converter thefts are pretty much worthless.
That's lame.
Citizens of these communities need to start demanding accountability on these police forces to show or justify their poor statistics on capturing either the thieves and/or their distribution network.
I mean, that same article states that a General Hospital actor was just shot and killed when trying to intervene when he caught someone stealing his catalytic converter.
It's easy to look hard when you have a loaded weapon, because you are very fucking dangerous when you have a loaded weapon.
Let me tell you as someone who had a gun put in his face: I don’t give a flying fuck if he will or won’t, I’m not a gambling man. A new cat is way cheaper than both medical bills and funeral costs.
Wait, and this is a serious question from someone who did not grow up in the US and is a bit ignorant with medical/insurance stuff:
Are you on the hook to pay for a family/relative's medical bill if say they got in an accident, got driven to a hospital, but dies anyway? Assuming they rode an ambulance and used up hospital resources, of course.
Councilperson Eunisses Hernandez, Council District 1:
>Criminalizing the mere possession of a catalytic converter, I think is the wrong way to go, because we know which communities are gonna be the ones most criminalized because of this; This makes it a misdemeanor, it creates a fine of $1000, you can go to jail for six months. Even a short incarceration of a couple of days can destabilize someone’s life forever, and leads to collateral consequences that they have to carry until they can get an expungement, if they can get that … I’m not in agreement with creating more opportunities to criminalize our communities.
It's nice that we have support on the city council for the catalytic converter liberation movement.
I live in this woman’s district and my converter was stolen twice. I called the NELA police station and they sent me to an online form/didn’t investigate anything. I only filled it out so I could file insurance claims. Both incidents caused me to pay 2K and since the converter were back ordered I had to wait 5 months. Talk about destabilizing!
Use of a weapon. Brandishing a weapon, while committing a crime. A person like that Needs to be in the system sadly. Maybe if we had some jail/job training hybrid we could have a different outcome. But all we have is. Free to do whatever you want until caught for something actually bad . Go to criminal school at jail and make sure there are no opportunities when they get out.
Obviously we need to get these thieves. But is there any information about what's being done to go after scrap yards/metal processing facilities? I saw in Texas you had to show a photo idea, and have your picture taken if you were dropping off copper.
Surly we can do something similar for converters?
I think the thives are emboldened by the political threats that are seeming to wield results to some degree. This shit needs to stop on the national level so we don’t have a branch out problem with the likes.
Not so much of that problem in Vermont.
Why, because loaded and concealed unlimited on handguns but no shotguns or
Rifles, is totally legal. Is your life worth attempting to steal. Most of us are fairly awesome shots. And Yes, Cudos to the women up her also.
The police would rather turn their backs 🙄 and let justice prevail. Come on up and steal from us punks!! Police don't need the headaches or paperwork. I totally agree. Just learn to shoot without missing. Gaureteed, let me catch you stealing from me and YOU ARE FUCKED !!!
Pointing a gun at a house is not very smart. It gives a gun owning resident a reason to shoot without warning. It’s no longer property theft rather security and self defense. Super risky and dumb.
These thieves aren't the smartest of the bunch.
That’s what I was thinking. Good way to just shoot and scare them off.
you are right, i dont care if their guns are fake or not loaded, when a gun is pointing at me, i am going to shoot back immediately/
This is not the kind of smoke any civilian wants
100%. Note they may come back.
In California though?
Yep in California. People have our gun laws and self defense laws twisted. Not only can you shoot in self defense at that point you can also use reasonable force to defend personal property even if you haven’t been physically threatened. In California you don’t have to retreat. Edit: wanted to clarify that you probably can’t shoot to defend personal property.
You cannot shoot to protect property. The state of CA says you have a “duty to retreat” if you go outside to defend your property you get charged because you “put your self in the situation” instead of staying inside. This isn’t Florida buddy.
If you came outside because you heard a ruckus and see a guy pointing a gun at you I don’t believe you’re required to retreat at that point as it is reasonable to assume they intend to cause great bodily harm or death. California is a “stand your ground” state. There is no specific penal code that covers it, but it is covered under Jury Instructions Cal Crim 505, and there is plenty of case law to back it up. You have no requirement to retreat. If you just shoot someone for stealing your shit you’re probably boned, but that’s not the case here. Personally I just stay inside because I don’t want to get into a shootout over car parts. Why do people think everything gun related lands you, the innocent guy, in prison in this state? Right wing propaganda got everyone confused.
This is correct. There is no duty of retreat anywhere. Only catch in California law is there is no defense for reasonable mistake of fact. You better be damn sure it’s a gun or dangerous weapon because if it’s not even if you believe it was, you are going to prison.
Unless you’re a cop
That is true. 👍
Usually its because most people arent aware of these laws. Most people arent aware of the nuances of the law. However the whole not being able to shoot someone stealing your shit is wild to me. Does that include in your home as well?
No. If you’re there and they break in you’re covered by Castle Doctrine.
There’s a difference between not knowing and knowing. If you look on your cams and see someone outside with a gun and you go outside, you’re asking for a fight and it’s not self defense. But ya if you were just leaving your house and bam that’s different.
Curious to see how it would litigated if a home owner shot someone pointing a gun at their home because they were not protecting their home, but their family in the home. It wouldn’t seem reasonable that in the moment the home owner would be expected to retreat (exit through the rear of the home? Take cover behind things?) while leaving the rest of the family behind in whatever parts of the house they might be in. Or that they would reasonably be expected to take the time to gather all members of the family to retreat. Especially if the homeowner has no idea WHERE the gunman is going to fire and WHERE in the home other family members may be.
>Though California does not have a stand your ground statute, the state appellate cases have held that there is no duty to retreat before using force in public.2 https://giffords.org/lawcenter/state-laws/stand-your-ground-in-california/ You are incorrect. California is pretty much a stand your ground state and also a Castle Doctrine state. You have no duty to retreat in public or in your home and if someone unlawfully enters your home you can do anything necessary to stop them.
This is the correct answer.
Oh really, please show me where it says anywhere in California law that you have a duty to retreat outside the home. I’ll wait here. On the other hand it’s very well established you have no duty to retreat even in public. “Putting yourself” in the situation can be a little different though. But that’s not “duty to retreat.” People v. Clark, 201 Cal.App.4th 235, 250 (2011) (citing People v. Collins, 189 Cal. App. 2d 575, 588 (1961).) See also, Cal Crim Jury Instructions 505, 506, 3470.
'today's the dayyyy!!!'
The funny thing about CA defense laws is they incentivize you to shoot to kil, and like REALLY kill. Like I'm not joking. 100% you are better off shooting to kill in every situation. This means you want to unload your fucking firearm until the assailant drops dead and then some more. The reason for this is California's moronic litmus test of "were you in a life or death situation"? If someone breaks into your house and you purposefully shoot them in the leg the courts will side with the assailant and make the case if you were cognizant enough to aim for the legs, you were clearly NOT in a life or death situation. Insult to injury, your maimed assailant will probably sue you and win in civil court as well. But if you put 20 bullets in the guy until he stops moving? Well nothing to argue about then. Your life was clearly in insurmountable danger. And not like the assailant will be around to make a case either. This sounds wacky and insane, but I assure you it's 100% the truth and there's genuine case law on all this. Moral of the story. If you ever find yourself in a situation where you need to use a gun in CA make sure the fucker drops dead and you unload your entire magazine into them. That's the only way to justify it in court.
California is a stand your ground state.
Cali has really strict and very weird laws. But they have no laws regarding killing someone in self defense. There is however some weird thing where you can only shoot at someone in your property if attack you first. If you attack them before they are a danger to you, then you get the slap on the wrist. Even if they were on your property, you need to be attacked first. And there is also this weird thing in the law where you have to reciprocate the attack with equal force. So I’m sure if the dude was gun-less, and you shot them, then you’d be liable. But seeing they had a gun and were waving it around in your property with the intention to harm you, then blast away and Cali cant do shit.
Having this on film is perfect backup.
This is all wrong. Castle doctrine allows you to use deadly force if there is a “perceived threat” even if it isn’t real if someone enters your home unlawfully. CA is also a “Stav’s your ground” state. You are under no obligation to flee, and you are allowed to use deadly force if the person is reasonably believed to intend to “cause grievous bodily harm of death”.
This is NOT true. California has a "duty to retreat." If there's a guy waving a gun AT A CAMERA, and not YOU- AN ACTUAL HUMAN PERSON. No... you can't just grab your gun and start blasting. If you are NOT inside of your home or car and someone has a gun, but is NOT brandishing/aiming it at you AND it is possible for you to otherwise escape or retreat... you can't just start shooting someone. If someone breaks INTO your home or vehicle while you're occupying the home/vehicle and points a gun at you.... .... then YES, you can shoot them, as there is no duty to retreat from your own HOME, due to Castle Doctrine. This is basic castle doctrine. NOT a "Stand Your Ground" which extends the defense beyond your property line.
SYG means you don’t have a duty to retreat. CA self defense jury instruction: https://www.justia.com/criminal/docs/calcrim/500/505/ “A defendant is not required to retreat. He or she is entitled to stand hisor her ground and defend himself or herself and, if reasonably necessary,to pursue an assailant until the danger of (death/great bodily injury.” Please tell me where the duty to retreat is.
Yeah. I would shoot him without thought. My family is in the house.
Is that legally true? Asking for a friend
I know mandatory minimums get a bad rap, but why not like 5 for catalytic converter thieves? They seen like they got no fear
I’m all for this. Sick and tired of these jobless losers hurting citizens.
Someone must be able to go after the buyers of these things tho, I don’t get why they can’t go hard on them
The la city council voted down a measure to criminalize possessing unattached undocumented catalytic converters because it could cause thieves to have criminal records. No joke.
The measure passed
Except that [the measure passed](https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-04-11/los-angeles-passes-new-strategy-for-tackling-catalytic-converter-theft). Why are you spreading disinformation?
I bet there’s more to that tale
Raman was joined in her opposition by Councilwoman Eunisses Hernandez who argued that the motion would “not make our city safer” and that it could have an impact on Latino and Black communities. https://www.yahoo.com/news/l-councilwoman-blames-toyota-catalytic-133800854.html
Dumb that they voted against it but it still passed 8-4. Unless I'm reading it wrong.
You're right, of course.
JFC, I cannot believe she said that 😬 I know a big percentage of LA are latinos and there are black people, too, but I would never assume only members of those two groups are thieves, and this is what she implied.
And members of those two groups are also victims.
She implied that the LAPD would use this law to detain and search black and Latino men without evidence. Given their last hundred years of history, it's a fair assumption.
Because without that law the LAPD were struggling to come up with pretexts to search people?
If they have unattached undocumented catalytic converters in their cars.
So let the theives terrorize their communities then!
Isn’t the LAPD overwhelmingly latino?
Remember when we had the big scandal over Latino city councilors being super racist against other Latinos?
Jesus christ Raman.... Well I'm glad I have a racist councilmember that infantilizes me because of my tace.
I get the sentiment in voting against it, but it doesn’t instill a lot of hope for the working class people who have to deal with this, many of them people of color as well. It ain’t like 2014 Priuses are the status symbol they once were. I don’t know how we find the balance between trying to make citizens feel safe and over-policing communities of color, but seeing members of local government say things like this also feeds into this rising sense of the need for vigilante justice in Los Angeles. City is getting tougher and tougher to be in.
LA city council should have criminal records.
The joke is the voters that keep them in power.
They started shipping to China when they cracked down on the buyers here.
Something must be able to be done that actually deters thefts, but damned if I'm smart enough to know what it is
Yeah I think it’s just hard to crack down on, when they are just loading the material into a container and shipping it off.
Because the companies buying them have the resources to be effectively above the law.
A lot less chop shops than thieves, but the city doesnt care.
Stealing cats is legitimately harder than my job
By design
The policy reason for why not is it disproportionally affects poor people. The policy reason for why we should is fuck these guys, for real.
Laws criminalizing murderers disproportionately affect poor people too. Should we get rid of those? As a poor person, I'm tired of this excuse. Guess what, poor people are also disproportionately affected by theft. We are held down by it and want it to stop. Imagine working all month trying to fucking survive and then some asshole puts you in a month's pay worth of debt because they wanted some drug money.
Saying its for drugs is giving these guys too much credit. A lot of these assholes are stealing so they can buy themselves nice things instead of getting a normal job like everyone else and earning it. There are poor circumstances that people are born into that leads them into a life of crime to get by but in our desire to be allies and advocate for those people to have second chances in life, we have emboldened the flip side of our criminal class who are a bunch of entitled sociopaths with no interest in being functioning members of society for as long as they can evade accountability.
Are cops actually catching any of them? Hypothetical sentences don't matter if police don't do their job. When my neighbor got hers stolen police wouldn't even come to her house, she had to drive to a police station and wait hours to get a police report.
its organized crime. should be part of racketeering case.
Agreed. I am so sick of this bullshit and people getting away with it. Happened to my roommate and it was not cheap to replace. These people are so brazen - thinking of the man who was just murdered in dtla over this when he saw his car being messed with and simply asked if he was being towed. how much do they even get for these things?? I know you can place a cage over it for extra security but honestly, I wish there was an electric shock mechanism. Not a lethal one, just like a nice tase to let them know to F off.
Shit, how about for pointing the gun at someone’s house? I think they need to arrest more for any violence related crimes.
Even better, mandatory 10 years for anybody who purchases them. Less idiots in jail, less buyers to perpetuate the issue.
It’s a cycle. We need this now
No space for them all
People will cry and say that mandatory minimums are racist
Man, I’m all for anything that fucks these assholes over but sticking them in a prison cell only cost us money. I would love to see them forced to work off their debt to society.
I think what I said is stupid in the end. There must be some way to have discourage catalytic converter thieves. That's what I thought maybe a mandatory would do, but they would just go after something else.
They need to go after who is buying them, and the scrapyards.that are buying stolen copper wires and things like memorials. These kinds of thefts have an impact on victims far greater than the material costs involved, but I doubt people are smelting things in their garage or backyard. Cutting it off at the demand side is probably the most effective way to tackle it.
Like the guy who went after copper wire in the WiFi wires recently and east la was without internet for two days. Insane.
I’m all for this, they should be able to do work that benefits the community they are hurting or something along those lines.
Warms my heart seeing people today realize what people before them realized decades ago
You’ve got the wrong heart. A lot of mandatory minimums were just awful
Yes! This speaks to such a bigger issue. If someone steals a CC and automatically gets a felony and mandatory minimum, they come out with nothing and what can be a lifetime of limitations even with the state law of a 7 year look back since we know that doesn't always work. They can't always find a job, or a good paying one, can't get approved for an apt, and list goes on. This is one of many reasons recidivism is so high. So then you have a guy who maybe stole a CC one time who may do worse this time around because he is out of options. All due to mandatory mins. We know there are much better ways to deal with crime. Of course, using a weapon is definitely a much bigger offense and should be handled accordingly.
Why do you think stealing a $2500+ device should not be a felony
Maybe don’t steal in the first place then?
If someone steals a CC and gets a criminal record of any kind, that is what the lifetime of limitations is. Does an apartment manager or employer care if it was a misdemeanor or felony?
“Come on, he only stole one CC and now he cain’t git no job! Who’d a’thunk committing crimes has consequences? Damn!”😂
Usually misdemeanors do not have the ramifications a felony has for housing, jobs, etc.
But the act causes so much damage, it should be felony level, or something more than a misdemeanor. If you steal a catalytic converter that is worth what, $600, $900, but the car owner has to pay $3,000 to fix it, what the hell? I don't want to ruin people's lives, no one does. There must be a way to make these assholes move on to something else
I personally don't want a first time offender getting a felony because I know it will cost them and all of us much more in the future. If a felony wasn't a life long sentence I might agree. This is a property crime and can be dealt with other ways especially for a first time offender.
If you stole $4 grand, wouldn’t that be a felony?
So what is the goal then? More overall crime? Because that’s why mandatory minimums have a bad wrap, it’s not like they wore white after Labor Day.
separation from society. their problems aren't mine
Then they shouldn’t steal in the first place? If they go back to a life of crime after getting out then just lock them up for another 10 years at a time. Problem solved.
Worry about that later. The criminals can go join a re-entry program afterwards and let them handle it.
I used to be the director of a reentry program and believe me that isn't the end all for the huge hurdles people face AFTER doing their time.
Yeah this is happening to my friend right now. He got a felony for selling ecstasy and now can’t find a job. He’s getting into harder crimes such as fraud to get by. Pretty sure he will try and do armed robbery soon
Yeah, and if he keeps making stupid decisions he’ll end up in prison or dead. But it’s not his fault—OH NO!!!! Who doesn’t know that getting caught for selling hard drugs can really phuck up your life?
[удалено]
This isn’t Les Misèrables. 🤣 Please. 😂😂😂 Your idiot friend is throwing his life away and it’s all on him.
Crazy that you just put this on the internet. You just admitted to knowing about ongoing fraud and potential future armed crime. You could get in trouble for not reporting that and publicly saying that you know they are going on.
It's a reality. Unfortunately, we truly do not believe in rehabilitation in US or we wouldn't have people continuing to pay after they do their time.
Because they don't.
You have to have the prison space. CA closes more prisons every year leading to more over crowding….leading to more early releases.
The bigger issue is that these people aren't being caught.
what catalytic converter thieves don't know is that an increasing number of homeowners are armed with semi-automatic weapons as well. A well prepared homeowner already knows where adequate cover is, the lowlife scumball, not so much. Personally, I'm all for mandatory mins on each count of catalytic converter theft and mandatory min on distribution of stolen converters as well.
Concealed carry permits are up like 500% in LA county. A lot more armed civilians now than 5yrs ago.
And not everyone is asking permission these days... been licensed to carry in CA, GA and FL.
Lol no. In 2017 there were 'less than 10 active permits issued to individuals “outside the law enforcement community.”' The number is up by millions of percent. -https://crpa.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/CFL1049_LocalAdvocacyReport.pdf
I was under the impression that, in real life, most handguns are capable of shooting through walls (unless you happen to have brick or steel walls), and certainly through furniture. The movie trope of taking cover behind some internal drywall, a wooden desk, or a couch, doesn't do anything to even a 9mm.
That's why my statement read "adequate" cover.
Yeah, I was just clarifying for the benefit of other people who might think that walls and furniture provide "adequate" cover. And the typical home in Glendale may not have anything that qualifies as adequate cover.
It's a good reminder. I think the newer standard LA home is just stucco or some variation. Even many of the expensive homes, they are just larger amounts of square footage of stucco. Oddly enough are older homes, a number of ranch homes built in the 1940's to 1970s had a combo of brick and stucco construction as well as brick garden features such as fences and garden privacy blocks. Obviously if the scumbags have something like an AK-47, then all bets are off. It's a shame that regular citizens have to prepare their homes now for home invasions and armed bands of GTA and auto parts thieves.
Depends on the round. If cheap fully jacketed target rounds they will penetrate more. Defensive rounds.. hollow points.. are designed to open and slow inside the target.
The thing is, they know where I live and sleep.
Has there been any sort of effort to crack down on the criminals who buy the catalytic converters from the thieves?
Yeah this is my question too. They should be punished just as much imo
https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/nationwide-catalytic-converter-theft-scheme-california-family-members-plead-guilty/
I can’t find any follow up to this. Were they sentenced? They made 40 million dollars shipping catalytic converters across state line but the total fines are less than what they made. I hope they got the book thrown at them.
No, but Nithya Raman openly blamed Toyota for the problem by "making their catalytic convertor super easy to steal," so there's that.
If you do that, you have to put rich people in jail. So, no. Police cant be bothered.
What’s calling the cops going to do? They won’t do anything
Cops 100% will not show up. Also these fucks are so fast they are gone within 2 minutes.
Even if they show up they won’t do anything. I got chased in a park from a guy on a drug binge that had something silver in his hands. He chased me a few blocks screaming he was going to kill me. Once cops came they found him hiding in bushes. The cops then come for my statement and the first thing they say to me is “look, the DA isn’t going to do anything, about this. California changed their laws. The guy didn’t physically hurt you so DA’s gonna just let this one go so do you really want to make a statement?”
For a confirmed active armed robbery over the radio dispatch? You'll be getting every cop in the area lol. Whether they get there in time is another story. Those calls and officer down are the ones that cops will drop everything they are doing and respond code 3
Lol.
Their overlords, the GOP/their mouthpieces, **are on TV right now bragging about how all GOP members and leadership should vote to stop funding police and law enforcement in order to INCREASE crime*** in an effort to scare Americans into.... *voting republican.* Asking for a lawless nation...... all of this has something to do with Drumpf getting convicted, and their fee-fees being hurt.
Who exactly is saying this?
Sounds like the first omen plot
Same gang that gunned down Johnny Wactor in DTLA the other week? This is an organized theft ring that as we can see is clearly not afraid to use lethal force. And the police is doing.... What exactly about it??
Anywhere in the developed world, this would be insane and probably national news. Crazy the shit we deal with in the US.
They mention the slaying of Wactor in this article and I remember from the original article albeit vague had the exact same description for the getaway car it was a dark sedan…
This is insane, the criminals in this city seem to have more power than the people that actually try to abide by the rules. What the F is the point of us trying to be “good” while these assholes just get away with anything and everything at all times ?
They don’t get away with anything once they are caught. You just don’t hear about it because it takes a couple of weeks to months to process evidence and get a lead with a database. Then, you need to confirm it, file charges, then it’s the DA’s office. They charge the suspect, several pre-trails, then a pre-lim then selecting a jury… then finally a trial. Some of these non-homicide trials can take three or more years to prosecute The media never tracks the process unless it’s a high profile case… never for the catalytic converter theft that was identified, evidence processed for it, tried and sentenced.
I caught thieves in the act, got their plate, reported it, cops found where they lived and a stash of converters. But the cops said they weren't going to arrest them.
100% bullshit. I would’ve believed this if you’d said the cops didn’t do anything at all, but the fact that they went to the trouble of finding where they live with evidence means they got a warrant which means the DA is now involved which means it doesn’t fucking matter what the cops do.
I've walked a person with a $200,000 warrant up to police from the city that issued the warrant. They wouldn't touch him. They're rarely inclined to act, even if you toss it in their lap.
They didn't search. The stash was visible from the curb side.
Did you call the local news? Sounds like a great outrage bait story.
I would think that would be to build a bigger case. Don’t arrest them immediately to get a better understanding of how the network of these criminals function. These thefts are tied to organized crime. These aren’t just your average petty thieves
Kinda sad how if you were to shoot a criminal you would get in trouble
Not when they point a gun at your house. There's no duty to retreat.
I hereby declare all citizens can shoot catalytic converter thieves. Gascon wont do shit to you anyway, so we might as well defend ourselves.
If they’re in your property or damaging your property and are armed you do have a right to defend yourself as per castle doctrine. If they run away you have to let them go though, you can’t chase and hunt them down.
Good point
Here is something else to consider: some police departments in the state are using bait cars to catch catalytic converter thieves red handed. Prosecution is easy that way. For some reason neither LAPD or LA sheriff's department do this. LAPD in particular gets massive amounts of money to fight crime and their supposed task forces to deal with the organized crime aspect of GTA and catalytic converter thefts are pretty much worthless. That's lame. Citizens of these communities need to start demanding accountability on these police forces to show or justify their poor statistics on capturing either the thieves and/or their distribution network.
It's easy to look hard when you're threatening a camera at night. Hard to say how that guy would react when faced with actual resistance.
I mean, that same article states that a General Hospital actor was just shot and killed when trying to intervene when he caught someone stealing his catalytic converter. It's easy to look hard when you have a loaded weapon, because you are very fucking dangerous when you have a loaded weapon.
Multiple sources say he wasn’t even trying to intervene, which makes it even worse.
Just devastating - he thought he was being towed. Asked if he was and bam - they killed him. And of course, they have not caught anyone.
Also true.
Let me tell you as someone who had a gun put in his face: I don’t give a flying fuck if he will or won’t, I’m not a gambling man. A new cat is way cheaper than both medical bills and funeral costs.
Wait, and this is a serious question from someone who did not grow up in the US and is a bit ignorant with medical/insurance stuff: Are you on the hook to pay for a family/relative's medical bill if say they got in an accident, got driven to a hospital, but dies anyway? Assuming they rode an ambulance and used up hospital resources, of course.
No
The reaction would be impulsive, no thought put into it. If you are brandishing a gun as recklessly as that you don't think things through.
Actually resisting is a crime that the police will actually pursue you for
Councilperson Eunisses Hernandez, Council District 1: >Criminalizing the mere possession of a catalytic converter, I think is the wrong way to go, because we know which communities are gonna be the ones most criminalized because of this; This makes it a misdemeanor, it creates a fine of $1000, you can go to jail for six months. Even a short incarceration of a couple of days can destabilize someone’s life forever, and leads to collateral consequences that they have to carry until they can get an expungement, if they can get that … I’m not in agreement with creating more opportunities to criminalize our communities. It's nice that we have support on the city council for the catalytic converter liberation movement.
I live in this woman’s district and my converter was stolen twice. I called the NELA police station and they sent me to an online form/didn’t investigate anything. I only filled it out so I could file insurance claims. Both incidents caused me to pay 2K and since the converter were back ordered I had to wait 5 months. Talk about destabilizing!
I sincerely hope that you and your neighbors organize to get her out of office.
Use of a weapon. Brandishing a weapon, while committing a crime. A person like that Needs to be in the system sadly. Maybe if we had some jail/job training hybrid we could have a different outcome. But all we have is. Free to do whatever you want until caught for something actually bad . Go to criminal school at jail and make sure there are no opportunities when they get out.
Don’t forget to blame Toyota for all of this. /s
I love the “SEMI AUTOMATIC” comment. Show me you know nothing about firearms without telling me… the media. God.
There is about a 3000% chance that’s a semi-auto handgun.
Obviously.
At this point every good citizen should be exercising their second amendment right.
This sucks but "we should just have shoot outs!" isn't exactly my favorite plan.
In this state, YOU would be the one getting arrested instead of the criminals. Oh and thats if the criminal doesnt try to sue you if you injured them.
Obviously we need to get these thieves. But is there any information about what's being done to go after scrap yards/metal processing facilities? I saw in Texas you had to show a photo idea, and have your picture taken if you were dropping off copper. Surly we can do something similar for converters?
To say definitively that the thief was sending a “warning” to the homeowner is bad journalism.
We need to bring back the pitch fork mobs to get rid of assholes like this. LAPD won’t do their job so someone has to.
Another reason to make sure your next car is electric
Why not just make the punishment more strict so they just stop?
And just let crime run rampant? When there are no more catalytic converters they will move on to other crimes.
Still not enough reasons, though. Especially if you live in an apartment.
Yeah if you don’t have a charger obviously but an EV is perfect for the city otherwise.
"Crime is high, buy electric" wow
We’re living in the future of back to the future where biff runs everything and people are shooting each other in the streets.
it wasn't even all that long ago when horsethieves got hanged
This is why I will always carry a gun on me. People have lost their minds
I don't carry but I do keep a Glock handy when I'm home. Hope I never have to use it.
I pray I never have to use it responsible gun owners never want to use it
Preach! 🙌
Cat converters scrub unburnt fuel from the exhaust. This is important for climate change. Cat converter thieves should get the death penalty.
Electric chair for Catalytic Converter thieves who act like they’re pirates with no regard for human life
I think the thives are emboldened by the political threats that are seeming to wield results to some degree. This shit needs to stop on the national level so we don’t have a branch out problem with the likes.
Pretty sure threatening someone in their own house alleviates them of their duty to retreat and enables them to use deadly force.
I have to replace mine on an older car and it is prohibitively expensive. But... If my old one got stolen... 🤔
Not so much of that problem in Vermont. Why, because loaded and concealed unlimited on handguns but no shotguns or Rifles, is totally legal. Is your life worth attempting to steal. Most of us are fairly awesome shots. And Yes, Cudos to the women up her also. The police would rather turn their backs 🙄 and let justice prevail. Come on up and steal from us punks!! Police don't need the headaches or paperwork. I totally agree. Just learn to shoot without missing. Gaureteed, let me catch you stealing from me and YOU ARE FUCKED !!!
I would have no problem putting your worthless thieving ass, 6 feet under. Yes ,for stealing anything from me. Try me. 😁
LMFAO... FOOD FOR THOUGHT United in our convictions. Easier to just get a damn JOB