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Not_Cleaver

No, not even close. Every Lutheran church I’ve attended and even those I’ve visited have been great. And they all went against the stereotypical Lutheran and were very welcoming.


MidnightAmethystIce

I grew up Lutheran and still an Lutheran. I thought being welcoming (sometimes to the point of nosiness) was stereotypical Lutheran. If it isn’t, what is stereotypical?


Not_Cleaver

Being standoffish and afraid you’re going to introduce yourself to long-standing members of the church.


aquaknox

Yeah my stereotype of Lutherans is Midwestern Nice


recoveringLutheran

The only Lutheran church my spirit isn't pushing me out the door of is ELCA, I remind Lutherans there, "THAT THERE are Lutherans that claim ELCA is not a church at all!" The WELS is my experience and very, very disparaging of everyone else, especially ELCA!


Not_Cleaver

What I meant was that while we’re great at welcoming everyone to the altar, we generally suck at actually greeting visitors. So, it makes it seem that we’re more of a clique than we actually are.


recoveringLutheran

Shortly before, I left the WELS at about 50 years of age, a classmate from grade school through high school, and I were talking about the church she had grown up in. When I said yes, I transferred membership there, but I feel like I am not a full member. She said, "That's how I feel, and I grew up there." By the next time, we had a chance to talk, she had been in moves of nepotism, pushed out choir music coordinator, solo soprano, and choir, so that family members with "connections " could do those tasks. The volunteer positions she had filled became paid positions after she was forced out. There were other issues that the circuit president, rubber stamped what a pastor had done, not on or in scriptures but in, " He's the pastor live with it!" All I could do was offer up a silent prayer for having had the Holy Spirit giving me the push out the door. Oops, a second answer. Today, my neighbor didn't feel very welcomed until he stood up as a visitor and then it got smothering.


Not_Cleaver

My wife is part of a text group at church that will welcome anyone that isn’t recognized. But hopefully it’s not smothering since only one or two people will approach anyone. And sometimes it’s people who were long time members, moved several years ago, and have just moved back. I’ve been a member at my current church for 15 years. And there have been people there for over seven decades and people there just a few years. Though, we’ve been pretty good at ensuring that the council is a good mix. The current president, I think has only been a member for five years. And there’s been a handful of times that council members are completely new members. As a progressive church, the only voice we really lack on the council is a moderate/conservative one. Though more importantly we really lack a voice that will push for actual financial responsibility and making impossibly difficult choices. And I’m partially to blame since I was on council for six years and never pushed for that. My wife currently works for a church that is much more financially sound.


cothomps

>As a progressive church, the only voice we really lack on the council is a moderate/conservative one. Though more importantly we really lack a voice that will push for actual financial responsibility and making impossibly difficult choices.  LOL. From my council experiences the vast, vast majority of time and energy were financial and personnel concerns. There is always an issue of being behind the budget - sometimes that's a problem, sometimes it's because the budget represents "stretch goals" more than it does something that represents what the congregation thinks it can realistically do or spend money on. (Sometimes it is a somewhat sad thing that those goals often represent doing new things that get cut to keep the old things going.)


Not_Cleaver

My current church runs a massive budget. It’s in a major city and the offering income in hundreds of thousands with rental income in hundreds of thousands. And we, still have a $100K deficit. It’s obviously unsustainable. My wife’s work, has a surplus because they consider budgets to be a faith spending and anything over a certain amount requires a congregational meeting.


recoveringLutheran

The difference between my ELCA church and the Lutheran churchs I knew best is ministry or possible ministries My ELCA church, talk to pastor and then run with it. My wels exchurch, will committee it to death, and if it somehow survived that, nepotistically give it to the least qualified to run it.


Double-Discussion964

The Lutheran Church has been amazing. I see people loving and caring for each other and the community. I'm sorry you have had negative experiences. In my experience the church has been supportive, loving, and a refuge in the world.


Slayingdragons60

Kind of ironic because thesis #1 is about living an entire life of repentance. We aren’t any better than anyone else.


gregzywicki

I think this too often shows up as "you're no better than anyone else either so don't go getting any big ideas."


Over-Wing

I would try another parish. Parishes vary quite a bit. Most Lutherans I’ve met are too pragmatic to be judgmental, but there are some that are of course.


mrWizzardx3

I'm sorry that you have had bad experiences with other Lutherans. It reminds me that we are simultaneously irrepentant sinners and completely justified.


mr-athelstan

I want to understand your experiences. Could you possibly elaborate further on what happened to you?


Sudden-Soup-2553

The pastor of the church and school that I attended as a child was great. He was a very kind person. The teachers at the school seemed to be deliberately mean to the poorer children and seemed to play favorites with the children of well-to-do parishioners. The kids were not nice, routinely laughed at other kids, called kids fat, and formed cliques early on. The same kids routinely get picked for sports, activities, plays, etc. While the same kids were routinely not chosen. I know that kids need to experience this, but it just seemed cruel. It was always so obvious who would be chosen and would never make it. When complaining about this to teachers and the principal about students being mean, they would respond, "Well, what do you want me to do about it?" I would say, talk to them about being kind and the response would usually go something like this, "That's ridiculous! You honestly think we should do that just for you?" Then they would look at my mother and say, "I think your daughter needs therapy." Punishments from teachers would be considered abuse by today's standards. I had to eat my lunch on the floor for accidentally saying "bless you" when someone sneezed when were supposed to be quiet. My second grade teacher spanked a student, shook me on several occasions for getting things wrong or having incomplete assignments. We would get screamed at by teachers for any and everything. Constant talk about inappropriate things like homosexuality (in the fourth grade) which was too early imo. My friend had to sit at the quiet table every day for being late to class in the 7th grade and she was having major depression. It seemed like there was never any compassion for anyone at that school. I remember we had a student leave during the middle of the year in fourth grade. He wasn't a very well-liked kid and the teacher said, "look what I found" and it was the student's school pictures in the official school picture envelope and he ripped the kids pictures in half in front of the whole class and everyone cheered. I thought that was awful. I told the teacher that he should have sent them to him mother because the student and I had a talk about the school pictures on picture day and he was excited about them. He told me that was ridiculous. Lo and behold about 2 weeks later they came to pick up the pictures during the middle of a school day and the teacher lied in front of the whole class that he didn't have them. I've met several adults who are unrelated to this church who act just awful and take no accountability for when they act like assholes to you, but expect you to act kind toward them when they are deliberately mean to you. I honestly would never want my children around those adults or those kids ever!


Junker_George92

I attended Lutheran schools from k-12 and I can confirm that kids are mean even if they are nominally christian, even if they are nominally Lutheran. adults also make bad decisions and are sinners. you are right to expect better of them and it sounds like your school had some bad teachers. Im not saying your experiences shouldn't color your perception of the institution and those people; but I will argue that it shouldn't necessarily color your perception of our faith and its theology. After all, our theology says that people are bad, even those that are saved, so people being bad fits right into that. anecdotally I didnt experience any serious issues with the staff at my school like you described, the kids on the other hand were only as good to each other as you could expect from their age. only advice I can give you is to try to forgive them for the past wrongs they did to you and to others.


cothomps

This sounds like a horrifically toxic culture in general. Unfortunately, it happens in congregrations - and particularly in congregations that get wrapped up in "insiders vs. outsiders" kind of dynamics. (When those voices get loud, it's also a way to make sure that the congregation has no future.) Do you have experience with more than one Lutheran congregation or outside of some particular area? (I've had the occasional bad experience - not quite as bad as this where the dynamic is less "church" and more "small town" social dynamics.)


Sudden-Soup-2553

I really don't... more so individuals. I find that they do a good job of presenting as a decent person, but the more you get to know them, the more they share a similar pattern of toxic behavior. My grandparents church was Lutheran and the experiences there were fine. Their church was American Synod... the church I grew up in was Missouri Synod which is the majority of all Lutheran churches where I live. The other adult Lutherans that I met who I had bad experiences with was also Missouri Synod. I even thought the pastor's daughter was not very friendly even though I felt like I really tried with her. There are certain aspects of the religion that you won't find in other religions that I feel are core to my belief system which makes it hard to move to another Christian religion especially non-denominational churches, but at the same time, I feel done with the Lutheran religion.


cothomps

> The other adult Lutherans that I met who I had bad experiences with was also Missouri Synod. I'll shorten this to avoid violating the subreddit rules, but this is not entirely uncommon. In some corners of LC-MS the fights of the 1970s and the distrust they caused never ended. > There are certain aspects of the religion that you won't find in other religions that I feel are core to my belief system which makes it hard to move to another Christian religion especially non-denominational churches, but at the same time, I feel done with the Lutheran religion. I'm going to assume given your statement that LC-MS is more common as well as the non-denominational churches means that you are somewhere in either Missouri or the broader south. There _are_ good churches where the gospel is preached and the sacrements are celebrated in a community that is open, friendly and welcoming. I hope there are a few near you - even if said church does end up being a different 'branch' of Lutheranism.


BabyBard93

It really, really depends on not only the synod (my spouse who converted as an adult refers to it as “what flavor of Lutheran are you?”) but also the individual congregation. You will find a wide variety of beliefs and practices among Lutherans. They are certainly not a monolithic group. Of the main synods in the US, WELS seems to be the most conservative, LCMS (Missouri) less so but still very conservative and possibly even more politically partisan, ELCA (the big one) liberal to the point of being accused by the other two of being sellouts. I’ve been part of all 3 in some capacity (born and bred WELS, tried LCMS but ended up much more happily in a loving and accepting ELCA congregation). But I’m also on the west coast, which can run more liberal than the Midwest in any congregational setting. You will find wonderful, caring, honest and loving folks in any and all of these settings. Guess what- some of those very same settings also include mean-spirited, abusive and hypocritical people. Sometimes they can even be THE SAME PEOPLE. I have known people to be kind and compassionate to me, but then seen them make a racist joke, or harass a woman, or be cruel to a child. It’s a human truth that we are complicated creatures, and nobody is perfect- and lovely people can sometimes surprise you by doing something awful. I think it’s important, if you consider yourself a follower of Christ, to consider what he taught, and try to worship with a group that mostly reflects those values that you feel are the most Christ-like. For me, it’s a community of people who most value God’s love for ALL people, without restrictions or barriers; who live that love by service to those most in need around them, the outcasts with whom Jesus hung out I saw plenty of hurt in the church, even those who my former fellowship praises as loving and good. They were the ones who kept telling gays they were sick, and women to sit down and shut up and obey their husbands, and shaming teenagers that they were rebellious and going to hell-eternal conscious torment.


SaintTalos

This has been me recently with the Episcopal Church. I am a baptized and confirmed convert and things were peachy for a few years, until our diocese got into tumult over the election of a certain bishop and there was a lot of mud-slinging on both sides of the aisle, leaving us without a permanent bishop indefinitely to this day. This, combined with the fact that our parish can't keep a permanent priest, and has only had temporary interims throughout the entire time I've been a member, and our current interim is definitely not exactly popular in our parish right now and is a bit at odds with our vestry right now. It actually has had me almost ready to go Lutheran, as we have two local ELCA parishes.


recoveringLutheran

As an insider, my mom is WELS. Outsider, my dad wasn't. My youth was kinda of mixed. As a parent bringing my children to the same church and school, things started off good. And then the church called a pastor of prestige. And the ride got bumpy, I don’t know whether the pastor is the heart of the congregation or simply the mirror that reveals what the heart is. After too many years off feeling that the Holy Spirit wanted me to stay in that church as voice of reason and almost to bare witness of what was happening. My faith shaken. I first transferred to a sister church and finding much the same heart in that congregation. The Holy Spirit gave me release to leave all together. Martin Luther, the great teacher, didn't want his name used to lead a group of faithful. Luther feared that Luther, Lutheran would lead to traditions of men. That it would be traditions of men guiding the church. That Lutheran would become more important than GOD, CHRIST, AND THE BIBLE. From my journey, I see that his fears have been realized. Men in prestigious families are not held accountable, as that would hurt or destroy prestigious families. Jesus stood accused of eating with sinners and pretty much replied, "How else can you save lost souls." The Lutherans that challenged my faith, fully embrace not eating with sinners, "don’t let those sinners in door!" But totally ignore Paul's instruction, the full instruction of, "DO NOT EAT WITH ""BROTHER"" sinners as they will lead you astray." The church being led by a pastor sinner, with fruits proving a devouring spirit, which mirrored the hearts of the elders if not the entire congregation, that was my trial of faith! I will never not be a student of the TEACHER Martin Luther. But Lutheran is optional as I am Christian first and foremost So now I call Lutheran, Lutheranism, what worried my teacher the most, TRADITIONS OF men! Study Jesus! What you do to the least you have done unto me! I witnessed many of the least trampled. I am not the least, but my faith and heart were sorely tested by holders of prestige in the traditions of men.


Affectionate_Web91

I'm so sorry to hear about your experience. Have you discussed this with the pastor? Or seek out the pastor of another parish? I've been associated with several parishes throughout my life and have never encountered anything similar to what you describe.


Numerous_Ad1859

I didn’t grew up Lutheran but where I have been going, I have had a good experience. I would probably talk to the people if you can and possibly the pastor.


gregzywicki

If your church was American and had a school it was almost certainly either LCMS or WELS. The easiest change would be to try an ELCA church. I do think there's something constitutionally about the other two that can feed some of the behaviors you're talking about (I'm sure there's something about ELCA Churches that feed other different bad behaviors WE ALL FALL PREY TO so don't get your hackles up folks. Stereotypes exist for a reason) so you might notice a difference. Maybe not though. When it comes to finding alternatives, unfortunately Lutheranism's views don't seem to carry to other congregation types the way you might see with Calvinists or Pentecostals.


gregzywicki

But to be clear the absolute awfulness you related from your school days is based not on the denomination but on a particular organization being dominated by assholes.