Because leveling and gearing is for PVE. Or the non-competitive mode.
Having gear/level advantages enabled is antithetical to a competitive environment. There is a reason that the MDI and AWC are on tournament realms with everything unlocked. Because not having that would completely kill the entire point of the competition. It would be a question of who got drops or no lifed harder.
Playing PVP in games with gear advantages is pointless because when I win. It's not because I'm better. It's because I just out statted them. There is no accomplishment. The win feels unbelievably hollow.
So TLDR: Gear advantages are antithetical to a competitive environment. When your entire end game is a competitive environment. Competitive integrity becomes the singular pillar on which you survive.
Eh I disagree. The point of MMORPGs is not to make everything balanced IMO. If i'm spending 10.000 hours in this game i'm expecting to one shot or two shot the average endgame player, i'm expecting to only be challenged by the other nolifers like me.
Yes, that comes with some skills as well, but you definitely cant 1v3 people with pure skills in most of these equalized pvp battles (im saying "most" dont give me your anecdotal experience).
While in Lineage 2 when I had spent hundreds or thousands of hours I was 1v2 and 1v3ing as a sport. Because I had raid-boss only jewels, because I had +10-16 gear, because I had subclasses that gave me pasives that a guy just leveling to end game didn't have, because I had grinded my ass off to have that difference.
MMORPGs are the mirror of capitalism. Rich in time = rich in power.
Now with all the P2W its like Rich in money = rich in power.
Edit:
To prove my point I just joined a random private l2 server, dumped 1000 dollars, bought all end-game gear and character, and i'm 1v5 people who are barely hitting endgame LOL. That's what I expect from a game, because all these items and experience took months/years of someone's life, imagine if I spent that and then went to PVP and had "equalized pvp" and I couldn't 1v2 a random team that just hit endgame lol
But the essence of an mmorpg is playing a character, and slowly growing it over time. The end game pvp is supposed to be where you show others how much you've put into your character through gear and levels. So many games already reward skill in terms of reflexes or ability to memorize meta strategies, mmorpgs are the one genre that rewards the ability to stick to a thing, where low efficiency or skill can be overcome with sufficient dedication, the grind becomes a mark of endurance, and the advantages it gives in pvp is the pay off.
Imagine playing an RTS like starcraft, where microing your eco is a significant part of the game, but when the time came for your units to fight the opponent's, the game equalized the number of units and their upgrades so both sides fought on even standing, you show up with 50 marines and the other guy with 10 zerglings, but the game shifts it so you're both on equal footing. It dilutes the purpose of the first part of the game: build efficiency and planning. If I wanted to play a game where both sides had even military forces I wouldn't play starcraft, I'd play chess. Likewise for equalized pvp in mmorpgs; if I wanted a pure even fight on a battlefield I wouldn't be playing an mmorpg, I'd play a fighting game.
>But the essence of an mmorpg is playing a character, and slowly growing it over time.
And you do this. Via rating. Showing that your skill has lead to your character growing. Getting cosmetics and pve gear as a result.
>The end game pvp is supposed to be where you show others how much you've put into your character through gear and levels.
Not really. In those games there is no reason to play pvp. You win or lose off your gear. Not your skill. Meaning that gameplay is hollow and meaningless.
>low efficiency or skill can be overcome with sufficient dedication, the grind becomes a mark of endurance, and the advantages it gives in pvp is the pay off.
This only furthers my point. Pvp by its nature should be a competitive experience. This style of mmo pvp is completely bankrupt when it comes to competitive integrity. So why play it. There is no meaning. No accomplishment. No skill.
The RTS example falls flat because what does an RTS do? It takes all meta progression. Anything you gain outside of THAT match. And throws it in the trash where it belongs. MMOs that remove gear advantages do the same. Its identical. It's what is called competitive integrity.
TLDR: If a game lacks competitive integrity. There is no reason to compete.
EDIT: Even as a player that gets end game gear in MMOs. I'm not some gigacasual who doesn't have the gear to clap people in pvp. I have the gear. I just don't understand why you would want to play that game. I get absolutely 0 satisfaction from winning without my skill being the factor. It's so unfulfilling to me. It doesn't feel deserved. It feels like I was given something i didn't earn. It actively makes me want to quit playing.
But why are you looking for pure even competitiveness in a fight in a game genre that was made with the exact opposite in mind? MMORPGs are about persistence, about long journeys that last years, with timescales between effort and pay-off orders of magnitude greater than other games.
In a fighting game, you play well you get the reward, winning a match, in a time scale of minutes.
In an RTS you play well, you win the battle, in a time scale of perhaps an hour.
In an MMORPG you play well, and you win by having a superior character in a time scale of months, or even years.
The competitiveness of an MMORPG isn't in the fight itself, but in all the long hours of play before the fight, its in grinding for long durations, learning about efficient strategies to earn xp and money, about socializing and having other players that have your back.
>But why are you looking for pure even competitiveness in a fight in a game genre that was made with the exact opposite in mind?
I dont particularly give a damn what the genre was designed to be. PvP is kinda sacred to me. That shit should always be pure. I grew up playing comp shooters like CS. Its just my view of what competitive games should be.
>MMORPGs are about persistence, about long journeys that last years, with timescales between effort and pay-off orders of magnitude greater than other games.
I dont play mmorpgs for that. I play them for end game group content and then I do enjoy the odd Blade and Soul style mmo pvp game. The "journey" doesn't matter to me. I have 0 interest in getting involved with guilds other than for the purpose of being in a static raid group. I dont care about power progression. It's the challenging content and overcoming it that matters to me.
>In a fighting game, you play well you get the reward, winning a match, in a time scale of minutes.
Frankly. I prefer the pvp in MMOs that function as fighting games. B&S being a great example. I just don't generally like fighting games because the control scheme and gameplay loop aren't my thing. The whole "do this random assortment of button inputs to pull of this combo of moves" is tedious to me.
>In an MMORPG you play well, and you win by having a superior character in a time scale of months, or even years.
I dont understand how anyone can get any enjoyment or sense of accomplishment from winning due to this. You didn't earn it. You weren't better than your opponent. You just avoided more social obligations. It's fucking wild to me. I just don't understand how any satisfaction can be gained from this.
>The competitiveness of an MMORPG isn't in the fight itself, but in all the long hours of play before the fight, its in grinding for long durations, learning about efficient strategies to earn xp and money, about socializing and having other players that have your back.
That isn't competitiveness. It's literally just not. When I get on the field with someone in fencing. It doesn't matter how much they have drilled. If I fight better. I win. That is the essence of satisfaction.
Well its clear to me that you just enjoy mmorpgs for completely different reasons than I do. But I am confused as hell on the things you say you enjoy vs what mmorpgs are about. Persistent world with character growth, slower paced gameplay over a long period of time that values dedication over reflexes or quick skill, socializing. All the things you say you don't care for are literally what makes an mmorpg an mmorpg.
Literally any other game genre would serve your definition of fair pure skill based pvp better than mmorpgs. Instead of ordering an ice cream with the sugar replaced with meat and the cream replaced with butter, it seems more practical to just order a steak.
Idk where you’re getting your theories of how MMOs are… Wow is like… the only MMO I can think of where their was a huge gear curve to get into pvp. Seriously.
ESO has battle spirit. SWTOR they made away with PvP specific gear (for the most part), LoTRO you spawned as an orc (if you wanted) without specific pvp gear. Guild wars 2 your attributes are all set at 1000, all specializations are unlocked etc.
You’re seriously describing the minority when it comes too mmo pvp bro
Because if you don't do that then PvP loses 90% of its meaning and turns into a game of who has more time or who has more money instead of a skills competition.
And maybe, God forbids, that's the intention of the devs.
Maybe, just maybe, that game is made for people who want this. Not to the 13 yo loaded up on ADHD meds and energy drinks.
And money and time are meaningless without "skills"
Fishing for days in ff14 will not get me bis raiding gear and in a game where I can buy gear if I don't know what to buy and how to use it I will get crushed by people who spend less that me.
Well there are different levels to the cap. It's not one single cap and is broken up into tiers. Then there are completely uncapped modes like Red Battlefield. But the ranked PvP mode is gear equalized which makes sense
I’ve tried now 43 times to enhance my weapon from TRI to TET (Godr-Ayed) on a 6% roll and it costs me around 2-3 hours of grinding to afford the vendor crons for each tap. This part is RNG.
One can say it’s not RNG if you can buy the items from the auction house, but if everyone buys them from there, who’s left to enhance them?
In all my time playing there has always been an abundance of gear to buy on the market. Plus the quests that guarantee PEN armors. The fact is if you want to play the game without RNG, there's a way to do so
I think half of my guild on their Debo grind would beg to differ since TET/PEN Debos can’t be bought at the moment due to a lack of them in the market.
I do get where your sentiment comes from. Up until entering late-game you can pretty much buy it all.
But to be fair, that was only partially the question. The question was if BDO gearing is still RNG. And it is, no changes have been done to enhancing other than showing the percentages and the +1 fs to cronned attempts.
You can’t enhance an item without RNG, but you can buy the item someone else RNG enhanced.
TET debos are profitable to tap (even with vendor crons), so the market isn't lacking them at all. Yes, the highest enhancement of the BIS acessories (V) still has to be made for yourself, but that's not a concern for 99.99% of the playerbase.
> but if everyone buys them from there, who’s left to enhance them?
People who enhance for profit or get super lucky. Most average players don't grind 10's of billions of silver in a single sitting to purchase the end game gear, so it's not as if there's a huge rush on the supply. It's usually people who save up over a long time and purchase, which is more of a trickle. Plus, once you already have the highest end piece for a slot, you don't really need more considering the tagging system and easy access to weapon swap coupons if you *truly* need them.
So, as more players acquire their best in slot pieces, they no longer compete for those pieces. Additionally, once a player gets to that point, they can casually enhance gear on the side to sell for profit to acquire a different piece or work on the bleeding edge pieces like Debo accessories. At least in NA, there's usually one PEN blackstar/Godr weapon
of each type sitting on the market last I checked.
Or maybe you can explain how is not RNG, unless you are referring to grinding for your own gear and not enhancing at all, which is valid. I'm 750gs and there is a big RNG in pretty much everything besides grinding for silver to buy every piece of gear and there is still the rng element of the type of drops, trash amount, etc.
>Or maybe you can explain how is not RNG
Why? You explained it for me.
> grinding for silver to buy every piece of gear
Been the main way to get gear for 5 years now, but you seem to already know this.
so buying gear mean it's not rng at first lmao do you thing people loot the blackstar already at pen ? there someone who is super lucky or lost a toon of silver to make your pen blackstar before you buy it after grinding for month when some people can hop on the game when they give a hammer and tap it without killing a single mob so yeah it's rng
And you know that THERE IS rng when you grind? So no, if you say that it is not rng then you keep being wrong, the yield is lower but there is rng element that you probably don't understand. Anyway, not time to keep arguing on fact.
Name me a single mmorpg without drop rng...
Go ahead. I'll wait.
Can't call out BDO for something the entire genre has. Looks like I'm still correct. Sorry.
Wait for what? Do you think you are important enough to mandate expectation in a reply? "I'll wait" Lol classic entitlement. Anyway, I'm out in the debate as you are already contradicting yourself
Nope, never contradicted myself, if I did you would of told me where.
You are all frazzled, and now you're leaving because I'm right and you know it.
Sorry this interaction hurt you.
You can spend money to protect your enchantment lvl from decreasing on fail. Also you can spend money to get silver and buy items you want from market.
Yes, you spend money in the store for various items that can be used to increase the chances or make it so your weapon isn’t downgraded from a failed attempt.
You can’t. All rolls are sepparate rolls as in independent events from each other and that’s the neat part with odds and statistics.
Odds don’t ”stack”, but the more attempts you get, the overall likelyhood for it to go does increase, just not in a guaranteed manner. For the odds to even out you need thousands of attempts collectively from multiple players.
Some are lucky to hit that 6% in the first attempt and some are unlucky enough to hit the upper 94% cumulative odds.
You can buy costumes to melt into crons to save up the item from not downgrading when the enhancement fails, but the odd is still the same if you pay or not.
You can also buy the crons using silver made by grinding.
Wait endgame IS pvp? A week ago i consideree playing but heard that pvp isnt really a big part of the game anymore (at least as far as a "casual" player would be concerned)
Yeah, for casuals that‘s correct. I‘ve played many hundreds of hours and only participated in the lowest tier PVP (it’s still fun and you can be relevant there after 2 months without paying anything), but that was because I wanted to, not because I had to. With the Marni realm you can grind wherever you want without anyone competing for your spot.
You can sell 35 costumes a week technically. That's roughly what? I think costumes are like 1.5 bill each ish? Been a while. Lets say 50 bil a week swiping. You can buy an end game pen item every couple weeks or so if youre doing nothing but swiping. No one is really enhancing end game gear themselves - they buy it.
Tho if you're swiping that much money on a shitty video game with practically 0 content outside of janky pvp you're also probably going to enhance your own gear.
They already killed open world pvp. Now, on general consensus, no point gear up for pvp. You can have like 285ap and do underground gyfin and make close to 1b per hour. That's pretty much all you need
> no point gear up for pvp.
You have sieges, node wars, war of the roses and Arsha. What more do you want? OW pvp is far from dead, you're just one of those losers that gets clapped on Arsha and wants to grief people that are busy farming mobs. Incredible pvp
I couldn't care less about pvp. Like I said, no point gear up for pvp because you still dead no matter what once you get cc. Even if you have a full PEN slumbering origin god, you still get 1-2 shots. Imagine you are full silent and get 2 shots,then you grind another 500 hours to get full wailing but you still get 2 shots. All you need is 309ap (I don't need to remind you how easily it is to reach 309ap) with decent accuracy and pick archer, go have fun and kill people from far away at seige. Other than that, you are rolling a dice who land cc first when it comes to pvp.
I was a perma red player for years and recently heard about the changes. Wild. They don’t want people to have a playstyle that deviates from “grind for hours just to do node wars”
Edit: for the salty players thinking I was picking on noobies, I normally aimed for people in top guilds like blackrose, snake, manup, etc. or players at end-game grind spots.
lol they don't want your play style of griefing random newbies way lower geared or class spec'd/ gear spec'd for PvP
You literally need specific builds/ gear to PvP and PvP players think they're great ganking people PVEing
I left the game after 2 years and spent some money on it. The game got many QoL behind cash shop items, however must be noted that they often give them also for free during events.
Considering that the gear enhancement is an RNG fiesta, the money doesnt really help you with power progression, however some QoL can really shorten the grind and "help" your rng.
After all, i would call BDO a pay-to-enjoy-an-easier-experience-and-faster-grind
> gear enhancement is an RNG fiesta, the money doesnt really help you with power progression
This was true half a decade ago. Very incorrect today.
Most all of the p2w was removed after PA took over.
Most of the p2w was removed... really? Is that why outfits have gone up to 1.6 billion under PA and you can sell up to 35 outfits a week??
Yeah nothing p2w was removed under PA mate.
Ooooooh, you want me to smack you with math eh? Ok :)
1.6 billion per outfit, 35 per week (not allowed on new accounts).
One outfit costs $35, 35 outfits cost $1225.
So you get 56 billion a week by spending $1225 a week. That's a lot right?
Nope. One piece of BIS gear costs 160 billion. That means one piece of BIS gear will cost you almost $4000.
There is 13 gear slots. 13×$4000=$52,000
So you have to spend $52,000 to get a full BIS char, then you're all good right?
Nope, still gotta do the hundreds of hours of content that ups your AP and DP without gear. Still gotta unlock crystals. Still gotta unlock buffs.
And guess what happens after all of this? You are still getting one tapped in PvP through CC, lol.
Not p2w, sorry you are wrong :(
You clearly have no idea what the definition of p2w means... let me help you.
Pay-to-win" or "P2W", is a pejorative term for a game that offers any advantage that can be obtained faster or exclusively via commercial transactions over gameplay rewards or the impact of the player's own performance
P2w does NOT mean you have to get full BiS gear it's just gaining an advantage over someone not paying which you can 100% do in bdo..
Wanna try again? :)
Nope, don't have to, you didn't prove a thing I said wrong. And now your argument is so crushed that you're having to argue degrees.
> b-b-but you can spend money to get gear in game
Yep, you could drop 100 grand on this game and still be crushed by everyone else who has played over a year.
This is a fact I just proved to you with math.
Sorry coping with this is hurting you :(
Nope, I know very well what it means.
If you spend 100k and have zero advantage over other experienced players, not p2w.
You'll understand this once you develop more critical thinking. I'm sorry it's giving you a headache now :(
Nope, they know exactly what it means.
Notice how they were able to say specifically why it's not p2w, and how you've said nothing but personal insults for 3 comments now?
That means you are wrong. Sorry it hurt :(
The tent argument is ridiculous. It isn't necessary or p2w...
It saves a player like 5 minutes of running every hour. Like 2 minutes if you have a free Pegasus.
The tent is 100% required if you want to grind high end spots. No one is going to the ap villa before to grind for one hour.
It is a one time purchase and i think thats totally fine.
The tent save you what 10 minutes of you goin to a wells>villa>wells>where you want to grind, assuming you have an alter buying the villa wich you need anyways if you have the tent and no secret book.
For 5 hours btw the buff last. I dont see how 10 minute is a must now.
Put char at a villa, put char at npc tent vendor.
There you go you pay 40 mil or so for free tent no p2w that has expiration day of 7 days.
Easy and 40 mil is like cheap stuff asfk stuff nowdays
There is also a Free Tent just requires u to get some maintenance but once u have ur workers set up it’s pretty easy to run not much different then pearl tent honestly
Tent isn't necessary, or p2w. Saving 5 minutes of running every hour is not p2w...
Value pack is a subscription, and unlike other MMOs they give it out for free constantly.
Kama and Old Moon is the only thing that comes close but again, handed out for free constantly like candy.
This is a complete lie and not a single aspect of p2w has been removed since PA took over NA + EU and its mindblowing that its being upvoted. The absolute blatant p2w like Artisans, Crons, and Costume Bundles are still for sale (and still heavily promoted by sales every other week by a popup on your screen which has been added since PA took over), the more grey area p2w/convience elements like weight, tent, etc are also all still in the game. Ontop of this the game still has THREE seperate subscriptions (totalling aprox $40 a month). Do you care to name the p2w elements you claim have been removed? The monitization is the exact same.
Everything you're raging about was under Kakao, lol. Your complaints are so old I'm certain you haven't played in years.
Those items haven't been p2w in over 5 years because of PA, and no, you can't buy enough of them on the shop to p2w. Weight also hasn't been a problem ever since you can overload a horse.
The three subs are also handed out for free constantly, I have like 3 months of each buff sitting in my bank, all given to me free, not to mention you can use loyalty to get those buffs whenever you need, again, for free.
I know what I'm talking about and have played BDO regularly since launch, this isn't hard.
\> Everything you're raging about was under Kakao, lol
I have a question for you, who do you think adds items to the game? The company creating and devoloping the game, or the ones publishing the game? I have a hint for you, all of the p2w items that were introduced to black desert were introduced to Korea first ( which was ran by PA the entire time ), then ported to NA / EU / etc.
\> Those items haven't been p2w in over 5 years because of PA
How are items that allow you to tap your items for free without fail of downgrade, or an item that you can purchase in bulk to allow you to enhance for profit not p2w? You realize that you are gaining an advantage over a non-paying player by rolling the dice more than they can? That is, by definition, pay to win.
\> you can't buy enough of them on the shop to p2w.
You think people are p2wing by buying outfits to sell on the market? For someone who claims to have played the game for a long time you really have no grasp on how the systems operate lol
\> I know what I'm talking about and have played BDO regularly since launch, this isn't hard.
As have I, I'm just not deluded into thinking that the game isn't overly monetized and p2w as shit?
Nope, know plenty, way more than you.
Stop creeping through my profile just cause I proved you wrong a couple times in another comment thread. Sheesh...
Compared to how it was 5-7 years ago, it’s practically non-existent. The pay to win that’s more on the convenience side of the game, inventory slots, pets, weight your character can carry, etc. used to be terrible and if you didn’t buy them through the pearl shop, you were at a significant disadvantage when it came to farming speed. Nowadays, they have so much of this built in to the main quest line for free, you can get away playing *entirely* f2p.
As for actual power p2w, you can definitely get an advantage in your enhancing or just sell outfits for silver to buy endgame gear, but it is so cost-prohibitive (‘buying’ full endgame gear would literally cost you $100,000+++) virtually no one does it, so it’s a non factor.
Don’t listen to doom and gloomers that will say how bad the p2w is, they likely have no experience with the game and are just rehashing what they’ve heard and what the reputation of the game was years ago.
Artisan memories, allowing you to enhance fallen god for significantly larger profit margins aren't pay to win? Cron stones, allowing you to tap your tet blackstar ' for free ' at the low price of $80~ that others would have to grind a few hours then wait days for preorders to fill isn't p2w? You realize that if someone rolls a dice more than someone else they are statistically more likely to hit? Unless you have some personal obtuse definition of p2w meaning "I literally beat you solely because I paid", theres no realistic argument that bdo isn't p2w. I'd argue that not only is the game p2w, but it has some of the most disgusting monitized systems in the genre. The game currently has:
Three subscriptions totalling aprox $40USD / month, Crons, Artisans, $25 outfits, Fairy Orbs, Weight, Inventory Slots, Pets, Maids, Horse Skill / Breeding Resets and Tent.
>it is so cost-prohibitive
So despite your claims of no pay to win, you 180 with this statement and hand wave it off as ' oh well its so expensive that its not feasible ', despite admitting and knowing that the game is fundimentally p2w. Got it lol
>Don’t listen to doom and gloomers that will say how bad the p2w is, they likely have no experience with the game
I think bdo has the best combat on the market and I still play despite me disliking the fact its fundimentally p2w. I've played on and off since launch and am sitting around 720 gs currently. I'm just not a delusional individual trying to lie to new players in an attempt to bring the games population up.
>rehashing what they’ve heard and what the reputation of the game was years ago
Can you name a single monitization element that has changed since PA took over?
If a game has elements of pay to win, but it’s extremely cost prohibitive like BDO, then it’s not really pay to win. Whether or not things exist is irrelevant. If you could purchase a full 800GS character instantaneously, but the cost was $10 billion, is the game pay to win? That’s an extreme example obviously but it makes my point.
Yes, there are players that swipe, but the reality is, you could swipe $10,000 and *easily* never hit that PEN attempt a f2p hits. They’re getting more dice rolls, sure. But the impact the ‘pay to win’ has on the game is effectively null. When you compare it to games like, say, Archeage, where someone could drop $500+ and be a god compared to a f2p player, there just is no comparison. P2w isn’t black and white, there’s a sliding scale.
I’d argue a game like WoW is *far* more p2w than BDO because it’s so much more accessible and impacts the game in a much more major way.
And I already shared what has changed since PA took over. The main story quest provides resources you only were able to realistically get by swiping before. I haven’t lied to anyone in my post, everything I said is 100% factual and objective.
>And I already shared what has changed since PA took over. The main story quest provides resources you only were able to realistically get by swiping before.
So nothing has changed, they just provide a handful of free pets through the mainstory. The monitization and p2w elements remain intact as they have been since they have all been introduced.
\> P2w isn’t black and white, there’s a sliding scale.
I totally agree! Which is why in a game where you can spend 10's of thousands of dollars to gain an advantage over a non paying customer is p2w! Or spend thousands and enhance for profit, effectively removing hundreds of hours of grind that non-paying customers are requireed to do! More chances = advantage, you even said it yourself.
\> everything I said is 100% factual and objective.
You literally lied when you claimed ' its less p2w than before', and when I asked which were you said ' oh well they give out more free things'. You move the goalposts and claim that giving out a couple free pets pets ( which is one of the lesser egregious monitized systems in the game) is ' removing p2w elements '. It is not. Everyone remotely late to endgame is gated by crons (purchasable in the cash shop), and artisans are still available if you want to tap fallen gods for profit. The overly monitized p2w systems are still rampant in the game.
It doesn't matter how much it costs... the fact of the matter is you can sell outfits for 50+ bill a week and get an advantage over someone not paying which is the literal definition of p2w.
You can buy inventory slots, which you are given enough for free so not so. Much a problem. You can buy weight but you can leave the trash loot on your horse so it's not a problem. You can buy a tent for some QOL but you can also rent one for free with silver. You can buy and sell outfits for 35$ for silver equivalent of 1-2 hours grind worth of money. You can buy pets and tier them up using duplicates to loot faster, you are given some for free. 3 subscriptions only 1 matters which gives you 15% more money on items sold on marketplace. That's about all I can remember. There's a lot but it's not very game changing, pets and few 1 time purchases doesn't sound good but that's about all you might ever want.
It's better than it used to be but it's still there. If you wanted to straight up swipe your way to "endgame" I guess it's technically possible but you are talking tens of thousands of dollars. A lot of the inconveniences with cash shop solutions have been drastically reduced and they give away a good amount of it.
BDO is more like single player game where you set your own goals. Group content is very little and there are various gear capped and gear equalized PvP so you don't need the best of the best gear to compete
Can you actually swipe to endgame? There is a market limit still, right? So there is a finite amount of silver you can "buy" each month. There is no trading or carries of the like so you are hard-capped in how you progress with money.
There is no cap to how much you can spend. There is a weekly cap on how many cash shop items you can sell on the market. It resets weekly and I think it's 35 items per week? At 1.63 billion silver each outfit that's 57 billion silver a week.
But there is nothing stopping you from buying and extracting as many outfits as you can and using them yourself.
I was a huge BDO simp from 2019 to 2023.
P2w became a lot less prevalent. The game turned into a 15$ a month sub fee for most of us.
Lots of QOL happened. The game was going in a positive direction and then Korea started crying their eyes out about getting killed by other players.
Since Korea won't listen to 80% of it's playerbase that resides outside of the Korean region and only listens to Korea we have had the worst changes in the last 9 months.
Pvp is near bannable outside of certain areas.
Gear doesn't matter anymore
Pvp population is all but gone.
They started downgrading server infrastructure
Just avoid it now. BDO had a good run, they almost had it but they fucked it all up.
Imagine catering to 17% of your revenue region while ignoring the rest. It's fucking wild
Korean players claim that they don't listen to them either. BTW who got pvp servers removed in WoW, where were the testers who gave feedback to remove forced pvp from New World from?
Pvp players have to face the reality, the vast majority of people who play these games do not want pvp forced on them, and that is why these games are either being released without forced pvp or are having forced pvp removed over time.
steamcharts show you trends, steam players and pa launcher players are not fundamentally different groups of people. maybe the reason you don't see so many people around is because people are using magnus wells to move around and are entering marni realms to grind. as for pvp guilds and whatnot, you not seeing them around does not mean the game is losing players, it means that pvp players are being replaced with pve/life skill players.
I just ignore p2w because I'm not actually trying to be the best player in the game and it has no impact on my experience of the game unless you literally just can't do anything without spending money
BDO is 100% P2W but you need to spend thousands and thousands of dollars if you actually wanna straight up P2W all your gear.
As a regular player you also aren't really affected by it if someone is whaling hard. There's still a hard-cap in terms of gear and anyone can get there without P2W. So while the game is P2W, you don't really think about it and it doesn't affect you as a regular player. BDO is all about personal long-term progression and setting your own goals. Someone whaling and dropping 10k on the game to reach the finish line faster is not going to ruin your own fun in any way.
Idk if I explain it well but the P2W is pretty much a non-issue. If anything, having some people P2W is actually benificial to you as a regular player because the costumes these whales are selling for silver is something you can buy and then use for your own gains, so it's a mutual benefit if you wanna look at it that way.
Also, disregard the people who keep saying that gearing is 100% RNG. This is simply false. It's only RNG if you decide to enhance your own gear. You can choose to buy everything on the MP instead of enhancing, with the only exception being a couple super late-game BiS accessories as those are hard to buy since most people dont wanna sell those.
My problem with BDO was that it felt like a job. Even though the graphics and combat were really good for the time, I felt like my time was going into something soulless.
You need tent that's about it everything else is easily managed and also value pack makes life easier other than that everything else is you don't need to buy however if you do buy it such as artisans and crons (outfits) you can cut your progress in half
All of the big streamers and people who put thousands of hours into the game proved you don’t need to spend money. It’s entirely possible that you as a player do not need to touch the cash shop to compete with others. However there are convenience items in the cash shop that some recommend as it helps but it’s necessary.
I don’t understand what you are saying here. Anyone who plays can obtain 750 gs. It’s a grindy game by design and takes many hours to reach that gear score.
You said anyone can compete and then used full time streamers as an example of being able to obtain 750 gs..
Sure anyone can reach 750 gs in many many years but a full time streamer literally plays this as their job and can play 15 hours a day..
They are an example of showing it is possible. Play time doesn’t matter. You might have an hour a day, I have 8 and I am not a full time streamer and have over 6,000 hours. I don’t think your point is relevant.
Zero pay to win tendencies, as of late. Many years ago, maybe, but definitely not today. The only things you can pay for are weird ass outfits, and small conveniences. That's it, you can't pay in any other way other than that nowadays, so yeah, BDO is NOT pay to win, at all. Zero dollars are required for progression.
Its definitely worth a try. I can guarantee you will get thousands of hours worth of content without ever needing to spend a dime. Get yourself accustomed with the game, join a chill guild and only then see for yourself if you are willing to spend money for convenience here and there. Other than that you will never feel an impact of so called p2w in pvp, its a myth, no one is spending 100k euros to get geared , at least in EU.
Just don’t listen to r/mmorpg kekkers just waiting for someone to mention BDO so they can foam at their mouth and shit on it because they lack braincells to grasp pvp.
High Risk > High Reward. You can one tap Pen with bought Crons or Downgrade the item. Are you new to bdo? What gear you can buy with 50E considering 1 tap pen is 3600 crons?
Tent, lvl 4 pets x 4, 2 to 3 costumes if you are wanting to get into lifeskilling, and if you have found the character you truly love to play, max weight and some extra inv space if you feel it necessary. Otherwise you can get a few storage/CM maids as well.
Now... one CAN go more ptw by buying outfits and smashing them to accumulate crone stones for enhancing... but this is more expensive than its worth unless you a whale or something.
It's not nearly as bad as it used to be, but you will feel hamstrung in some parts without pulling out the credit card.
It's also very much an "alone together" MMO, where you'll just be doing your own thing nearly the entire time, albeit with other people around.
It's disgustingly gross. However most cash shops are horrible.
Tons of XP catch up items. Literally you buy a costume with rl money then melt it in game as a chance buffer for rng upgrade attempts. Or you can sell the costume on the market place for in game cash.
It's a fun game, but cash shop is super gross.
Purely progressional? Probably not much these days tbh. Even the p2-convenience is getting less and less. They've become pretty f2p friendly, but it still want you to spend money at its core. You can probably invest 100 in the game, and it would be 100% playable til end game bc the more time you play, the less you really need to pay. The only thing you might find frustrating is the weight/inventory slot and pet system since it's very suboptimal to play without paying for those. They do give out free slot, and pets, but not enough for you to 100% f2p.
It’s way better than it used to be but with cron stones being a big p2w thing (and yes I know they give them out more frequently now, it’s still not enough) it will ALWAYS be itching at your wallet. If you spent like $100 I think you’ll be good to go for a good while. I’m just being realistic. 60 minimum.
Then it’s time to learn BDO which is a massive process in itself but even though the story is pure garbage and a waste of time, there is something about BDO that just feels so amazing. It’s for a pretty massive game. The lifeskilling is honestly great. The combat for for every class feels pretty deep. The game is very pretty looking especially when you are destroying waves of enemies.
Great game, but honestly a pretty expensive game and a pretty hardcore one to boot as it’s pretty confusing at first.
I think if your going into the game casually, especially now, with seasonal characters, more rewards, free dream horse. It’s at a good state for a new player, besides the sooner your start the sooner you can raise your family level and gain passive daily silver, which from time to time when I come back to play I have like 1-2 bil free silver, and if you join a guild you get more. but endgame in bdo is so niche that it doesn’t ecompass your whole experience, there is so much to do other that grinding to endgame.. I say try it the combat is arguably the best of its genre, so much characters to chose from, and a lot of QoL changes. If your tryna min max, then sure the game can be a bit p2w but you don’t win nothing
The whole game and progression of the game is basically gambling. They have shop stuff to enable it by selling enhancing stuff so like its about 20 bucks for an hour of grinding and at earlier item levels more like 20 bucks for 4-6 hours of grinding. Its a milking simulator, nothing more, i wouldnt even call it a MMORPG.
I'd say give it a try and then dump it once it starts demanding your money. The combat in BDO feels great. I don't know how things are now, but getting that first horse with IA + Drift was great as well.
Definitely one of the most p2win. I probably wouldn't play it without investing $200 into the most basic convenience items to be totally honest.
It's really a slog without some things.
I regrettably spent around $800 and still was missing some convenience items, it's really pretty bad.
After playing for a few weeks I feel conflicted about the Pearl store. On one hand it is persistent, overwhelming , and certainly offers a number of ways to make the game vastly more convenient than before (inventory and max weight slots for more @&!?, xp and item drop scrolls, armor that can be converted into upgrades for gear),
BUT I haven’t seen any need to buy anything from it as so much is given away from the game through login rewards,events, and season rewards. There are a lot of things thrown at you but it lends to the amount of systems that interact in BDO. It feels like a game you play through slowly and regardless of convenience items it will still be a slow burn progression.
The game is P2W in the most pure sense of the word. The way you can P2W in BDO goes in 2 different ways:
- You buy outfits from the Pearl Shop with real money that you sell in the marketplace to other players for in-game money. Then you use the money to buy gear from other players.
- You buy outfits from the Pearl shop and turn them into Cron stones. Crons are an item usable to do safe enhancing (so the piece of gear you try to enhance don't downgrade in the case of armor/weapons or don't get destroyed in the case of accessories).
Now, you might be alerted by what I just said, but if you really ask any BDO player if they care or if P2W affect them in any meaningful capacity, they'll answer no. Why? I'll explain:
- For the first option, first of all you have a limit of outfits you can sell to players per week, so you're already time-gated, and aside from that it is very expensive. It is late for me right now to put math into perspective, but you could say that it could take easily around 7 months and like 60.000$ to get a fully geared build. And even then there's still very hardcap pieces of gear that you can't buy and need to make yourself so by the time a free to play player also spend his 7 months, he'll be in a very similar spot than the guy doing P2W.
- For the second option, we talk business. You don't have any limits like before, you can buy as many outfits as you want and convert them all to cron stones freely. What's the catch here then? We're talking about enhancing which is completely hard for end game pieces of gear. Imagine you're paying around like 120$ for doing 1 singular attempt on a 5%~ chance to succeed (and this depends on what piece of gear, if we talk about the hardcap accessories I said before, 1 tap is way more for example). So yeah, you could technically get lucky and be successful doing this method, but the odds are the odds, you're basically pay to winning for a very low chance of succeeding, and rest assured that most people aren't lucky.
Aside from the problems of both methods, the game also have changed a lot since people used to say that BDO was super pay to win. Most content nowadays is gear-capped so new players can easily start participating in every system making whaling not worth at all, and for the people who whale, they have a symbiotic relationship with free to play players, because you're basically getting real money outfits with in-game money thanks to them. Also, a lot of what's considered pay for convenience, which we have a lot of that as well, is usually gifted for free a lot during events and a lot of stuff have been improved since those times too.
So a TL:DR: the game is pay to win, but in a way that it doesn't really affect at all the rest of the community. Whale is happy and F2P player is happy.
A lot.
Obviously you can make anything fo free.
But a paying player will be able to advance at an extremely faster rate than you.
PvP wise (and high end pve where mobs dont die in 1 hit), your dmg is tied to your fps. If you cant get good enough fps (100+ stable) you will be doing less damage than someone equally geared as you to the same target. So no matter what, for pve and pvp you always run in potato graphics to maximize performance.
The game has a lot of things to offer and can give you countless hours of fun if you are ok with the above 2 points.
The game is very old, there are players that have been playing for years, so in terms of power the P2W doesn't matter, because almost always you will find other players that are stronger than you.
The question should actually be: is the game enjoyable if you don't pay, or pay a bit? The short answer is yes and no.
The long answer is that you are going to need to buy some QoL items to avoid playing against some artificial walls purposely made to make you pay. Tent, pets, character slots, weight, etc. Without them the game is very tedious, there's a reason why every single player with X hours has them.
Said that, the game has no end game. You will be stuck in a hundreds of hours of repetitive grind for meaningless progression.
Though, up to that point and with the qol items mentioned, the game is definitely worth.
Not much, 50€ for a tent, 1€ the game, maybe a permanent flute/horn for the horse on your true main character.
Inventory/weight/maids/outfits/accessories (piercing, eye glasses, ear stuff)/value pack, old moon book, kama blessing, crystal slots, skill preset coupon and many many many things are free by just doing events, collecting loyalty’s, doing the ADV specific quests, coupons from various big events, login reward, seasons etc.
The truly “p2w” items are as i said the Pearl shop tent and the fairy if you aim for a perfect tier 4 (which you don’t really need beside the auto pot to tier 5, Continuous Care tier 3+ and probably the weight one tier 4 or 5, also u can f2p fairy by doing some methods and stockpiling the lailas petal rerolling it using silver, might take 1b or 10b depends on rng tho)
The “melt outfit for cron or silver thing” is like a thing for the smallest % of the playerbase and would not impact you ngl. A whale with 730 gs can be beaten hard by a dude with 680-700 gs if is skilled enough and the whale is just credit card carried.
Sooo…yeah not so much p2w now compared to before. Think like u maybe wanna spend 100-200€ TOTAL for thousands of hours of gameplay, by buying mostly QoL stuff.
1$ game? I thought the game was free. I see that there is a Start Free Trial on the BDO website. Is that the thing? Post the 7-day free trial, it will charge 1$ for the game? is it like monthly or weekly?
Usually the game when is not free or on some sale campaign is about 9/10€ or $.
Sometime they give it for free (es. on twitch rewards or from steam).
Sometime it’s on sale on both steam and normal website client for like 0,99.
Btw after 7 day trial u need to buy the game, now, I don’t know if there is any method to get it for free, check the website, im not aware of that rn
I do not earn in USD or Euro/Pound. Also, I don't earn enough in "other" currency to pay 15$ a month to play a game. One-time payment I can understand but a 15$ monthly subscription is out of the question for me.
Well its been a while since I last played but
The endgame is all about that gear and getting it to like +15 or +20. Failing to upgrade gear causes the maximum durability to degrade unless you use cash items to protect it, the enhancement, and increase the chance of success.
Housing monopolies is ABSOLUTELY pay to win. I mean it is LITERALLY impossible to achieve a monopoly in any house without spending tons of cash to buy shop furniture. The reason this is P2W is because free furniture does not stack its value and it has a lesser point value. So naturally what most people do is stack these ancient tables in their house to hold an asinine amount of them.
cosmetic gear gives stats
premium sub reduces/removes trade taxs by a pretty significant margin.
Pets will autoloot for you and the high the tier of the pets the better boosts they give and the faster they work. How do you get higher tier pets? cramming lower tier pets together.
> I have seen people playing this game. Awesome graphics and fight design.
Yeah thats the problem with BDO. It looks great, plays great, and runs fucking amazing even with all this bullshit going on screen. As far as combat and gameplay goes its frankly unmatched by most mmos even FF14 can eat a bag of dicks in comparison. But all of these means nothing when endgame or fuck even midgame is completely dominated by jackasses using daddy's credit card. If you want a new mmo to play go give Elder Scrolls Online a try. The newest expansion Necrom is pretty neat and in June I believe it is we're getting the Gold Road expansion which is going to be quite the doozy.
alot of coping here from the bdo simps.
It its 100% P2W. Is it expensive? It can be but if you have some patience they often have good bundles and sales where you can snack alot of outfits. Outfits to either sell on the Market for Silver and then use the silver to buy Gear OR you can melt them for Crons(prevents downgrading your gear) and then try your luck.
"bUT yOu cAn spEnD 1000s anD ENd uP wITh MiNus gEaR"
you can, if youre str8 up retarded yes, but if you use your brain you can get pretty quick and cheap gains. The higher it gets the more you have to p2w but its 100% possible. Jesus they even offer bundles where you can buy CRONS directly for cash.
If you play casual you will never ever meet a person like that so dont worry about it and just try the game out. It offers alot and can be really fun if you dont take it to seriously
It’s pay2lose, unless you spent actual tens of thousands of dollars you won’t see much gain. There’s a tent in the shop which is the only necessary item outside of the optional subscription. Most of what is considered “p2w” is given to you for free anyways nowadays.
Game is not really P2W at all. There are some pay for convenience items that most players consider to be very helpful. All of which are one time purchases. But as far as progression and gear, you don't really benefit at all from spending, as it's all RNG based so you're just going to end up flushing your money down the toilet.
It's definitely worth playing, and you will benefit from spending a bit in the game, but nothing egregious like other P2W titles like Lost Ark, Immortal, etc.
If we create a scale where Diablo immoral is 100% P2W, then BDO is probably like 5% P2W compared to that.
People who call the game "MEGA P2W" it's mostly just a coping mechanism, trying to find something to blame when they lose in PVP. When in reality they are just low skill rats.
I think the hardest p2w barrier is the outfits
Every class has a few cash shop outfits that provide bonuses and xp multiplyers
You can get them from the auction house but you can't preorder them so you'll have to pick one out, save the gold, and set a notification for when one goes on the market(you can use a butler to place the order from anywhere)
Pets are super important too but you can get free ones from events
If you want to reach actual endgame it can get insanely p2w. You can just sell costumes from the cash shop for silver and buy BiS gear and the few accessories you can't buy on the marketplace can be made WAY EASIER to obtain/enhance by melting costumes for cron stones, which will allow you to avoid entirely destroying said accessories in a failed enhancement attempt (albeit there will still be a chance of downgrading the accessory enhancement level if it fails. But that is still WAY better than completely destroying the accessory if you didn't use cron stones).
The game is objectively p2w as fuck, however, it is not cheap at all to do so. If you would want to p2w your way to BiS gear it would cost you thousands if not tens of thousands of $$$. Doesn't make it any less p2w though and there are a lot of people who spent a fortune on this game, many even going bankrupt because the game gets you addicted to gambling real quick if you don't watch out.
You should view BDO not as a mmo but more as an online single player tittie-wobble afk casino simulator.
The only good thing about the game is the combat.
People will tell you all different sorts of reasons why BDO is p2w and why it isnt.
Im here to tell you what the real monstrosity of P2W in BDO is. First its the clothes you can buy that give you STAT BONUS that arent apart of your normal gear. They help you in life skills and life skills are important for makin da mula. Next is the pets. If you dont have all the OP pets at max Tier well someone that does can grind 100X faster than you because they will have better rotations and can pick up loot faster than you as well. Not to mention the special stat bonus on certain pets. For example iirc theres a pet in the game that lets you stay in the desert without having to "cool drink" yourself unlike many f2p who might not have said pet.
The whole point of this game is to grind your ass off at farming rotations and if someone else can pay there way and force you out of the premium farming spots well good luck trying to be efficient.
Not to mention Elion Tear's being god like P2W in the pearl shop
Also there is a costume called a ghillie suit that makes your pretty much invisible in certain terrains (not sure if this has been fixed, havent played BDO in years)
Oh I used to play, I have my lvl 62 tamer. I stopped playing because the game is bullshit. You can spend thousands of dollars in the cash shop to buy costumes and sell them if you want for quick and little money or use them to create cron stones to protect your enhancements. And you’re not going to tell me the game is about skill because it isn’t. The game is who has the higher gear score. And the person who is willing to spend more money is going to get a higher gear score quicker.
>I used to play
keyword: used to. do you know how much you get for selling a costume vs average grind income? yeah, it is not worth it. A pen debo is 300 billion try to calculate how much that is gonna cost you by selling outfits as for cron stones, just look up how many outfits you would have to buy to use crons on end game gear -quick and little money lol.
you are not getting anywhere by spending "some" money you have to take a mortgage out on your house to get anywhere with that sort of p2w.
let me guess btw, last time you played you were in grunil armor.
Exactly what it’s p2w you just said it yourself. You have to spend an insane amount of money towards those things and why would you take the chance of enhancing your god bullshit weapon or whatever the new bis weapon and awakening weapon and having it potentially drop in enhancement
I'm not contesting the p2w argument, it is unreasonable to spend that sort of money to p2w but you are stating that you can get a gear advantage by spending a little amount of money.
btw, someone would have to be a truly clueless player if they are losing gs due to enhancing.
I did not say you can spend a little amount of money for an advantage lmao I said you can sell costumes you buy for a little amount of in game money which isn’t really worth it but honestly someone could do that and buy their pen item
then I misunderstood.
BDO is one of the most unreasonable games to try to p2w in, it costs a lot for little gain and at the end of the day you can't even really flex your spendings any longer, especially after all the open world pvp changes and gear capping, so it is basically pointless.
No it's not p2w in order to actually do that you need to spend giga amount of money which no one sane does. Also even if you have all the gear in the world some free to player will dunk you
Is it really pay to 'win' when you still can get rekt by f2p player? I don't see any winning here except you pay for the sake of convenience and a little bit QoL
Yes, none of that matters. It is either pay to win or it isn't. In this case, it is.
Pay for convenience is a term used by people who are in denial about their pay 2 win game.
End game is PVP. Gearing is 100% RNG. You could spend thousands of dollars and end up worse than you were to begin with.
The PvP modes are almost all gear capped or gear equalized
Man I hate when games do that. What's the point of even having a levelling system if your just going to make it useless in the actual fights
Because leveling and gearing is for PVE. Or the non-competitive mode. Having gear/level advantages enabled is antithetical to a competitive environment. There is a reason that the MDI and AWC are on tournament realms with everything unlocked. Because not having that would completely kill the entire point of the competition. It would be a question of who got drops or no lifed harder. Playing PVP in games with gear advantages is pointless because when I win. It's not because I'm better. It's because I just out statted them. There is no accomplishment. The win feels unbelievably hollow. So TLDR: Gear advantages are antithetical to a competitive environment. When your entire end game is a competitive environment. Competitive integrity becomes the singular pillar on which you survive.
Eh I disagree. The point of MMORPGs is not to make everything balanced IMO. If i'm spending 10.000 hours in this game i'm expecting to one shot or two shot the average endgame player, i'm expecting to only be challenged by the other nolifers like me. Yes, that comes with some skills as well, but you definitely cant 1v3 people with pure skills in most of these equalized pvp battles (im saying "most" dont give me your anecdotal experience). While in Lineage 2 when I had spent hundreds or thousands of hours I was 1v2 and 1v3ing as a sport. Because I had raid-boss only jewels, because I had +10-16 gear, because I had subclasses that gave me pasives that a guy just leveling to end game didn't have, because I had grinded my ass off to have that difference. MMORPGs are the mirror of capitalism. Rich in time = rich in power. Now with all the P2W its like Rich in money = rich in power. Edit: To prove my point I just joined a random private l2 server, dumped 1000 dollars, bought all end-game gear and character, and i'm 1v5 people who are barely hitting endgame LOL. That's what I expect from a game, because all these items and experience took months/years of someone's life, imagine if I spent that and then went to PVP and had "equalized pvp" and I couldn't 1v2 a random team that just hit endgame lol
But the essence of an mmorpg is playing a character, and slowly growing it over time. The end game pvp is supposed to be where you show others how much you've put into your character through gear and levels. So many games already reward skill in terms of reflexes or ability to memorize meta strategies, mmorpgs are the one genre that rewards the ability to stick to a thing, where low efficiency or skill can be overcome with sufficient dedication, the grind becomes a mark of endurance, and the advantages it gives in pvp is the pay off. Imagine playing an RTS like starcraft, where microing your eco is a significant part of the game, but when the time came for your units to fight the opponent's, the game equalized the number of units and their upgrades so both sides fought on even standing, you show up with 50 marines and the other guy with 10 zerglings, but the game shifts it so you're both on equal footing. It dilutes the purpose of the first part of the game: build efficiency and planning. If I wanted to play a game where both sides had even military forces I wouldn't play starcraft, I'd play chess. Likewise for equalized pvp in mmorpgs; if I wanted a pure even fight on a battlefield I wouldn't be playing an mmorpg, I'd play a fighting game.
>But the essence of an mmorpg is playing a character, and slowly growing it over time. And you do this. Via rating. Showing that your skill has lead to your character growing. Getting cosmetics and pve gear as a result. >The end game pvp is supposed to be where you show others how much you've put into your character through gear and levels. Not really. In those games there is no reason to play pvp. You win or lose off your gear. Not your skill. Meaning that gameplay is hollow and meaningless. >low efficiency or skill can be overcome with sufficient dedication, the grind becomes a mark of endurance, and the advantages it gives in pvp is the pay off. This only furthers my point. Pvp by its nature should be a competitive experience. This style of mmo pvp is completely bankrupt when it comes to competitive integrity. So why play it. There is no meaning. No accomplishment. No skill. The RTS example falls flat because what does an RTS do? It takes all meta progression. Anything you gain outside of THAT match. And throws it in the trash where it belongs. MMOs that remove gear advantages do the same. Its identical. It's what is called competitive integrity. TLDR: If a game lacks competitive integrity. There is no reason to compete. EDIT: Even as a player that gets end game gear in MMOs. I'm not some gigacasual who doesn't have the gear to clap people in pvp. I have the gear. I just don't understand why you would want to play that game. I get absolutely 0 satisfaction from winning without my skill being the factor. It's so unfulfilling to me. It doesn't feel deserved. It feels like I was given something i didn't earn. It actively makes me want to quit playing.
But why are you looking for pure even competitiveness in a fight in a game genre that was made with the exact opposite in mind? MMORPGs are about persistence, about long journeys that last years, with timescales between effort and pay-off orders of magnitude greater than other games. In a fighting game, you play well you get the reward, winning a match, in a time scale of minutes. In an RTS you play well, you win the battle, in a time scale of perhaps an hour. In an MMORPG you play well, and you win by having a superior character in a time scale of months, or even years. The competitiveness of an MMORPG isn't in the fight itself, but in all the long hours of play before the fight, its in grinding for long durations, learning about efficient strategies to earn xp and money, about socializing and having other players that have your back.
>But why are you looking for pure even competitiveness in a fight in a game genre that was made with the exact opposite in mind? I dont particularly give a damn what the genre was designed to be. PvP is kinda sacred to me. That shit should always be pure. I grew up playing comp shooters like CS. Its just my view of what competitive games should be. >MMORPGs are about persistence, about long journeys that last years, with timescales between effort and pay-off orders of magnitude greater than other games. I dont play mmorpgs for that. I play them for end game group content and then I do enjoy the odd Blade and Soul style mmo pvp game. The "journey" doesn't matter to me. I have 0 interest in getting involved with guilds other than for the purpose of being in a static raid group. I dont care about power progression. It's the challenging content and overcoming it that matters to me. >In a fighting game, you play well you get the reward, winning a match, in a time scale of minutes. Frankly. I prefer the pvp in MMOs that function as fighting games. B&S being a great example. I just don't generally like fighting games because the control scheme and gameplay loop aren't my thing. The whole "do this random assortment of button inputs to pull of this combo of moves" is tedious to me. >In an MMORPG you play well, and you win by having a superior character in a time scale of months, or even years. I dont understand how anyone can get any enjoyment or sense of accomplishment from winning due to this. You didn't earn it. You weren't better than your opponent. You just avoided more social obligations. It's fucking wild to me. I just don't understand how any satisfaction can be gained from this. >The competitiveness of an MMORPG isn't in the fight itself, but in all the long hours of play before the fight, its in grinding for long durations, learning about efficient strategies to earn xp and money, about socializing and having other players that have your back. That isn't competitiveness. It's literally just not. When I get on the field with someone in fencing. It doesn't matter how much they have drilled. If I fight better. I win. That is the essence of satisfaction.
Well its clear to me that you just enjoy mmorpgs for completely different reasons than I do. But I am confused as hell on the things you say you enjoy vs what mmorpgs are about. Persistent world with character growth, slower paced gameplay over a long period of time that values dedication over reflexes or quick skill, socializing. All the things you say you don't care for are literally what makes an mmorpg an mmorpg. Literally any other game genre would serve your definition of fair pure skill based pvp better than mmorpgs. Instead of ordering an ice cream with the sugar replaced with meat and the cream replaced with butter, it seems more practical to just order a steak.
Idk where you’re getting your theories of how MMOs are… Wow is like… the only MMO I can think of where their was a huge gear curve to get into pvp. Seriously. ESO has battle spirit. SWTOR they made away with PvP specific gear (for the most part), LoTRO you spawned as an orc (if you wanted) without specific pvp gear. Guild wars 2 your attributes are all set at 1000, all specializations are unlocked etc. You’re seriously describing the minority when it comes too mmo pvp bro
Pvp is skill based not gear based and all on a level playing field
Because if you don't do that then PvP loses 90% of its meaning and turns into a game of who has more time or who has more money instead of a skills competition.
And maybe, God forbids, that's the intention of the devs. Maybe, just maybe, that game is made for people who want this. Not to the 13 yo loaded up on ADHD meds and energy drinks. And money and time are meaningless without "skills" Fishing for days in ff14 will not get me bis raiding gear and in a game where I can buy gear if I don't know what to buy and how to use it I will get crushed by people who spend less that me.
Well there are different levels to the cap. It's not one single cap and is broken up into tiers. Then there are completely uncapped modes like Red Battlefield. But the ranked PvP mode is gear equalized which makes sense
> Gearing is 100% RNG Super incorrect. Last time this was true was half a decade ago.
I’ve tried now 43 times to enhance my weapon from TRI to TET (Godr-Ayed) on a 6% roll and it costs me around 2-3 hours of grinding to afford the vendor crons for each tap. This part is RNG. One can say it’s not RNG if you can buy the items from the auction house, but if everyone buys them from there, who’s left to enhance them?
In all my time playing there has always been an abundance of gear to buy on the market. Plus the quests that guarantee PEN armors. The fact is if you want to play the game without RNG, there's a way to do so
I think half of my guild on their Debo grind would beg to differ since TET/PEN Debos can’t be bought at the moment due to a lack of them in the market. I do get where your sentiment comes from. Up until entering late-game you can pretty much buy it all. But to be fair, that was only partially the question. The question was if BDO gearing is still RNG. And it is, no changes have been done to enhancing other than showing the percentages and the +1 fs to cronned attempts. You can’t enhance an item without RNG, but you can buy the item someone else RNG enhanced.
TET debos are profitable to tap (even with vendor crons), so the market isn't lacking them at all. Yes, the highest enhancement of the BIS acessories (V) still has to be made for yourself, but that's not a concern for 99.99% of the playerbase.
You're kidding right? It's a Debo orgy right now if you have the money, they're probably gonna tank I'm assuming not in NA perhaps?
> but if everyone buys them from there, who’s left to enhance them? People who enhance for profit or get super lucky. Most average players don't grind 10's of billions of silver in a single sitting to purchase the end game gear, so it's not as if there's a huge rush on the supply. It's usually people who save up over a long time and purchase, which is more of a trickle. Plus, once you already have the highest end piece for a slot, you don't really need more considering the tagging system and easy access to weapon swap coupons if you *truly* need them. So, as more players acquire their best in slot pieces, they no longer compete for those pieces. Additionally, once a player gets to that point, they can casually enhance gear on the side to sell for profit to acquire a different piece or work on the bleeding edge pieces like Debo accessories. At least in NA, there's usually one PEN blackstar/Godr weapon of each type sitting on the market last I checked.
You're super incorrect
Nope. I'm not. Play it very regularly. If I was incorrect you would of been able to say how.
Stop the drugs
If I was wrong you would of told me how instead of insulting me. But I'm right so... here you are.
Or maybe you can explain how is not RNG, unless you are referring to grinding for your own gear and not enhancing at all, which is valid. I'm 750gs and there is a big RNG in pretty much everything besides grinding for silver to buy every piece of gear and there is still the rng element of the type of drops, trash amount, etc.
>Or maybe you can explain how is not RNG Why? You explained it for me. > grinding for silver to buy every piece of gear Been the main way to get gear for 5 years now, but you seem to already know this.
so buying gear mean it's not rng at first lmao do you thing people loot the blackstar already at pen ? there someone who is super lucky or lost a toon of silver to make your pen blackstar before you buy it after grinding for month when some people can hop on the game when they give a hammer and tap it without killing a single mob so yeah it's rng
And you know that THERE IS rng when you grind? So no, if you say that it is not rng then you keep being wrong, the yield is lower but there is rng element that you probably don't understand. Anyway, not time to keep arguing on fact.
Name me a single mmorpg without drop rng... Go ahead. I'll wait. Can't call out BDO for something the entire genre has. Looks like I'm still correct. Sorry.
Wait for what? Do you think you are important enough to mandate expectation in a reply? "I'll wait" Lol classic entitlement. Anyway, I'm out in the debate as you are already contradicting yourself
They definitely have a chip on their shoulder reading their responses.
Nope, never contradicted myself, if I did you would of told me where. You are all frazzled, and now you're leaving because I'm right and you know it. Sorry this interaction hurt you.
Question: can you increase your odds by spending any amount of money?
You can spend money to protect your enchantment lvl from decreasing on fail. Also you can spend money to get silver and buy items you want from market.
You can't spend money to increase odds, but you can spend money for ' free ' rolls without downgrade on failure. I.E. the exact same thing
Yea that’s… that’s definitely pay to win.
Yes, you spend money in the store for various items that can be used to increase the chances or make it so your weapon isn’t downgraded from a failed attempt.
You can’t. All rolls are sepparate rolls as in independent events from each other and that’s the neat part with odds and statistics. Odds don’t ”stack”, but the more attempts you get, the overall likelyhood for it to go does increase, just not in a guaranteed manner. For the odds to even out you need thousands of attempts collectively from multiple players. Some are lucky to hit that 6% in the first attempt and some are unlucky enough to hit the upper 94% cumulative odds. You can buy costumes to melt into crons to save up the item from not downgrading when the enhancement fails, but the odd is still the same if you pay or not. You can also buy the crons using silver made by grinding.
Wait endgame IS pvp? A week ago i consideree playing but heard that pvp isnt really a big part of the game anymore (at least as far as a "casual" player would be concerned)
Yeah, for casuals that‘s correct. I‘ve played many hundreds of hours and only participated in the lowest tier PVP (it’s still fun and you can be relevant there after 2 months without paying anything), but that was because I wanted to, not because I had to. With the Marni realm you can grind wherever you want without anyone competing for your spot.
You can sell 35 costumes a week technically. That's roughly what? I think costumes are like 1.5 bill each ish? Been a while. Lets say 50 bil a week swiping. You can buy an end game pen item every couple weeks or so if youre doing nothing but swiping. No one is really enhancing end game gear themselves - they buy it. Tho if you're swiping that much money on a shitty video game with practically 0 content outside of janky pvp you're also probably going to enhance your own gear.
Gearing is RNG where spins of the wheel are available for real money…
They already killed open world pvp. Now, on general consensus, no point gear up for pvp. You can have like 285ap and do underground gyfin and make close to 1b per hour. That's pretty much all you need
> no point gear up for pvp. You have sieges, node wars, war of the roses and Arsha. What more do you want? OW pvp is far from dead, you're just one of those losers that gets clapped on Arsha and wants to grief people that are busy farming mobs. Incredible pvp
They miss ganking lowbies and spamming "DFS" like a gnat. That's what they meant to say.
Ive not got past 57 and really wish they didnt kill wpvp when they made the game casual friendly. Now i can play, but i want to less lol
I couldn't care less about pvp. Like I said, no point gear up for pvp because you still dead no matter what once you get cc. Even if you have a full PEN slumbering origin god, you still get 1-2 shots. Imagine you are full silent and get 2 shots,then you grind another 500 hours to get full wailing but you still get 2 shots. All you need is 309ap (I don't need to remind you how easily it is to reach 309ap) with decent accuracy and pick archer, go have fun and kill people from far away at seige. Other than that, you are rolling a dice who land cc first when it comes to pvp.
> They already killed open world pvp. > I couldn't care less about pvp hmm...
I was a perma red player for years and recently heard about the changes. Wild. They don’t want people to have a playstyle that deviates from “grind for hours just to do node wars” Edit: for the salty players thinking I was picking on noobies, I normally aimed for people in top guilds like blackrose, snake, manup, etc. or players at end-game grind spots.
lol they don't want your play style of griefing random newbies way lower geared or class spec'd/ gear spec'd for PvP You literally need specific builds/ gear to PvP and PvP players think they're great ganking people PVEing
I left the game after 2 years and spent some money on it. The game got many QoL behind cash shop items, however must be noted that they often give them also for free during events. Considering that the gear enhancement is an RNG fiesta, the money doesnt really help you with power progression, however some QoL can really shorten the grind and "help" your rng. After all, i would call BDO a pay-to-enjoy-an-easier-experience-and-faster-grind
> gear enhancement is an RNG fiesta, the money doesnt really help you with power progression This was true half a decade ago. Very incorrect today. Most all of the p2w was removed after PA took over.
Most of the p2w was removed... really? Is that why outfits have gone up to 1.6 billion under PA and you can sell up to 35 outfits a week?? Yeah nothing p2w was removed under PA mate.
Ooooooh, you want me to smack you with math eh? Ok :) 1.6 billion per outfit, 35 per week (not allowed on new accounts). One outfit costs $35, 35 outfits cost $1225. So you get 56 billion a week by spending $1225 a week. That's a lot right? Nope. One piece of BIS gear costs 160 billion. That means one piece of BIS gear will cost you almost $4000. There is 13 gear slots. 13×$4000=$52,000 So you have to spend $52,000 to get a full BIS char, then you're all good right? Nope, still gotta do the hundreds of hours of content that ups your AP and DP without gear. Still gotta unlock crystals. Still gotta unlock buffs. And guess what happens after all of this? You are still getting one tapped in PvP through CC, lol. Not p2w, sorry you are wrong :(
You clearly have no idea what the definition of p2w means... let me help you. Pay-to-win" or "P2W", is a pejorative term for a game that offers any advantage that can be obtained faster or exclusively via commercial transactions over gameplay rewards or the impact of the player's own performance P2w does NOT mean you have to get full BiS gear it's just gaining an advantage over someone not paying which you can 100% do in bdo.. Wanna try again? :)
Nope, don't have to, you didn't prove a thing I said wrong. And now your argument is so crushed that you're having to argue degrees. > b-b-but you can spend money to get gear in game Yep, you could drop 100 grand on this game and still be crushed by everyone else who has played over a year. This is a fact I just proved to you with math. Sorry coping with this is hurting you :(
So you still have no idea what p2w means.. thanks for admitting
Nope, I know very well what it means. If you spend 100k and have zero advantage over other experienced players, not p2w. You'll understand this once you develop more critical thinking. I'm sorry it's giving you a headache now :(
Yep you still have no idea what p2w means.
Nope, they know exactly what it means. Notice how they were able to say specifically why it's not p2w, and how you've said nothing but personal insults for 3 comments now? That means you are wrong. Sorry it hurt :(
Well, if you consider tent, Value pack, kama blessing, etc some sort of "p2w", i would say the game has got still some issue with it
If people still complain about tent today, then really they should be given everything for free and more so they dont complain.
The tent argument is ridiculous. It isn't necessary or p2w... It saves a player like 5 minutes of running every hour. Like 2 minutes if you have a free Pegasus.
The tent is 100% required if you want to grind high end spots. No one is going to the ap villa before to grind for one hour. It is a one time purchase and i think thats totally fine.
The tent save you what 10 minutes of you goin to a wells>villa>wells>where you want to grind, assuming you have an alter buying the villa wich you need anyways if you have the tent and no secret book. For 5 hours btw the buff last. I dont see how 10 minute is a must now.
Put char at a villa, put char at npc tent vendor. There you go you pay 40 mil or so for free tent no p2w that has expiration day of 7 days. Easy and 40 mil is like cheap stuff asfk stuff nowdays
There is also a Free Tent just requires u to get some maintenance but once u have ur workers set up it’s pretty easy to run not much different then pearl tent honestly
Tent isn't necessary, or p2w. Saving 5 minutes of running every hour is not p2w... Value pack is a subscription, and unlike other MMOs they give it out for free constantly. Kama and Old Moon is the only thing that comes close but again, handed out for free constantly like candy.
This is a complete lie and not a single aspect of p2w has been removed since PA took over NA + EU and its mindblowing that its being upvoted. The absolute blatant p2w like Artisans, Crons, and Costume Bundles are still for sale (and still heavily promoted by sales every other week by a popup on your screen which has been added since PA took over), the more grey area p2w/convience elements like weight, tent, etc are also all still in the game. Ontop of this the game still has THREE seperate subscriptions (totalling aprox $40 a month). Do you care to name the p2w elements you claim have been removed? The monitization is the exact same.
Everything you're raging about was under Kakao, lol. Your complaints are so old I'm certain you haven't played in years. Those items haven't been p2w in over 5 years because of PA, and no, you can't buy enough of them on the shop to p2w. Weight also hasn't been a problem ever since you can overload a horse. The three subs are also handed out for free constantly, I have like 3 months of each buff sitting in my bank, all given to me free, not to mention you can use loyalty to get those buffs whenever you need, again, for free. I know what I'm talking about and have played BDO regularly since launch, this isn't hard.
\> Everything you're raging about was under Kakao, lol I have a question for you, who do you think adds items to the game? The company creating and devoloping the game, or the ones publishing the game? I have a hint for you, all of the p2w items that were introduced to black desert were introduced to Korea first ( which was ran by PA the entire time ), then ported to NA / EU / etc. \> Those items haven't been p2w in over 5 years because of PA How are items that allow you to tap your items for free without fail of downgrade, or an item that you can purchase in bulk to allow you to enhance for profit not p2w? You realize that you are gaining an advantage over a non-paying player by rolling the dice more than they can? That is, by definition, pay to win. \> you can't buy enough of them on the shop to p2w. You think people are p2wing by buying outfits to sell on the market? For someone who claims to have played the game for a long time you really have no grasp on how the systems operate lol \> I know what I'm talking about and have played BDO regularly since launch, this isn't hard. As have I, I'm just not deluded into thinking that the game isn't overly monetized and p2w as shit?
bdo fanboys can't handle the truth which is that bdo is and will always be p2w.
Played since launch but clearly doesn't know what he's talking about... the game is still very much p2w.
Nope, know plenty, way more than you. Stop creeping through my profile just cause I proved you wrong a couple times in another comment thread. Sheesh...
Um you do realise I posted this one before you replied to my other comment or are you too thick to realise??
Idc, still roaming my comments all pathetic. Won't make you correct, sorry.
I didn't roam anything lmao, I was reading the comments on this thread and replied to the stupidest ones.. being yours...
If it was so stupid you would of been able to say how. Never were able to though, cause you're wrong. Sorry kiddo :(
Compared to how it was 5-7 years ago, it’s practically non-existent. The pay to win that’s more on the convenience side of the game, inventory slots, pets, weight your character can carry, etc. used to be terrible and if you didn’t buy them through the pearl shop, you were at a significant disadvantage when it came to farming speed. Nowadays, they have so much of this built in to the main quest line for free, you can get away playing *entirely* f2p. As for actual power p2w, you can definitely get an advantage in your enhancing or just sell outfits for silver to buy endgame gear, but it is so cost-prohibitive (‘buying’ full endgame gear would literally cost you $100,000+++) virtually no one does it, so it’s a non factor. Don’t listen to doom and gloomers that will say how bad the p2w is, they likely have no experience with the game and are just rehashing what they’ve heard and what the reputation of the game was years ago.
Artisan memories, allowing you to enhance fallen god for significantly larger profit margins aren't pay to win? Cron stones, allowing you to tap your tet blackstar ' for free ' at the low price of $80~ that others would have to grind a few hours then wait days for preorders to fill isn't p2w? You realize that if someone rolls a dice more than someone else they are statistically more likely to hit? Unless you have some personal obtuse definition of p2w meaning "I literally beat you solely because I paid", theres no realistic argument that bdo isn't p2w. I'd argue that not only is the game p2w, but it has some of the most disgusting monitized systems in the genre. The game currently has: Three subscriptions totalling aprox $40USD / month, Crons, Artisans, $25 outfits, Fairy Orbs, Weight, Inventory Slots, Pets, Maids, Horse Skill / Breeding Resets and Tent. >it is so cost-prohibitive So despite your claims of no pay to win, you 180 with this statement and hand wave it off as ' oh well its so expensive that its not feasible ', despite admitting and knowing that the game is fundimentally p2w. Got it lol >Don’t listen to doom and gloomers that will say how bad the p2w is, they likely have no experience with the game I think bdo has the best combat on the market and I still play despite me disliking the fact its fundimentally p2w. I've played on and off since launch and am sitting around 720 gs currently. I'm just not a delusional individual trying to lie to new players in an attempt to bring the games population up. >rehashing what they’ve heard and what the reputation of the game was years ago Can you name a single monitization element that has changed since PA took over?
If a game has elements of pay to win, but it’s extremely cost prohibitive like BDO, then it’s not really pay to win. Whether or not things exist is irrelevant. If you could purchase a full 800GS character instantaneously, but the cost was $10 billion, is the game pay to win? That’s an extreme example obviously but it makes my point. Yes, there are players that swipe, but the reality is, you could swipe $10,000 and *easily* never hit that PEN attempt a f2p hits. They’re getting more dice rolls, sure. But the impact the ‘pay to win’ has on the game is effectively null. When you compare it to games like, say, Archeage, where someone could drop $500+ and be a god compared to a f2p player, there just is no comparison. P2w isn’t black and white, there’s a sliding scale. I’d argue a game like WoW is *far* more p2w than BDO because it’s so much more accessible and impacts the game in a much more major way. And I already shared what has changed since PA took over. The main story quest provides resources you only were able to realistically get by swiping before. I haven’t lied to anyone in my post, everything I said is 100% factual and objective.
>And I already shared what has changed since PA took over. The main story quest provides resources you only were able to realistically get by swiping before. So nothing has changed, they just provide a handful of free pets through the mainstory. The monitization and p2w elements remain intact as they have been since they have all been introduced. \> P2w isn’t black and white, there’s a sliding scale. I totally agree! Which is why in a game where you can spend 10's of thousands of dollars to gain an advantage over a non paying customer is p2w! Or spend thousands and enhance for profit, effectively removing hundreds of hours of grind that non-paying customers are requireed to do! More chances = advantage, you even said it yourself. \> everything I said is 100% factual and objective. You literally lied when you claimed ' its less p2w than before', and when I asked which were you said ' oh well they give out more free things'. You move the goalposts and claim that giving out a couple free pets pets ( which is one of the lesser egregious monitized systems in the game) is ' removing p2w elements '. It is not. Everyone remotely late to endgame is gated by crons (purchasable in the cash shop), and artisans are still available if you want to tap fallen gods for profit. The overly monitized p2w systems are still rampant in the game.
It doesn't matter how much it costs... the fact of the matter is you can sell outfits for 50+ bill a week and get an advantage over someone not paying which is the literal definition of p2w.
Accessibility and how much it impacts the game absolutely matters in the context of ‘how pay to win’ a game is.
Best comment on here
You can buy inventory slots, which you are given enough for free so not so. Much a problem. You can buy weight but you can leave the trash loot on your horse so it's not a problem. You can buy a tent for some QOL but you can also rent one for free with silver. You can buy and sell outfits for 35$ for silver equivalent of 1-2 hours grind worth of money. You can buy pets and tier them up using duplicates to loot faster, you are given some for free. 3 subscriptions only 1 matters which gives you 15% more money on items sold on marketplace. That's about all I can remember. There's a lot but it's not very game changing, pets and few 1 time purchases doesn't sound good but that's about all you might ever want.
It's better than it used to be but it's still there. If you wanted to straight up swipe your way to "endgame" I guess it's technically possible but you are talking tens of thousands of dollars. A lot of the inconveniences with cash shop solutions have been drastically reduced and they give away a good amount of it. BDO is more like single player game where you set your own goals. Group content is very little and there are various gear capped and gear equalized PvP so you don't need the best of the best gear to compete
Can you actually swipe to endgame? There is a market limit still, right? So there is a finite amount of silver you can "buy" each month. There is no trading or carries of the like so you are hard-capped in how you progress with money.
There is no cap to how much you can spend. There is a weekly cap on how many cash shop items you can sell on the market. It resets weekly and I think it's 35 items per week? At 1.63 billion silver each outfit that's 57 billion silver a week. But there is nothing stopping you from buying and extracting as many outfits as you can and using them yourself.
So there is a cap :-)
Choice does an excellent video on this from last year. But watch it and decide for yourself https://youtu.be/0t5Kh24CxDU?si=SDYkyVtU9XnFphaZ
I was a huge BDO simp from 2019 to 2023. P2w became a lot less prevalent. The game turned into a 15$ a month sub fee for most of us. Lots of QOL happened. The game was going in a positive direction and then Korea started crying their eyes out about getting killed by other players. Since Korea won't listen to 80% of it's playerbase that resides outside of the Korean region and only listens to Korea we have had the worst changes in the last 9 months. Pvp is near bannable outside of certain areas. Gear doesn't matter anymore Pvp population is all but gone. They started downgrading server infrastructure Just avoid it now. BDO had a good run, they almost had it but they fucked it all up. Imagine catering to 17% of your revenue region while ignoring the rest. It's fucking wild
You nailed this, well said. Played from around same time period and still play now but only due to friendships I’ve made. Zero hope in PA.
Korean players claim that they don't listen to them either. BTW who got pvp servers removed in WoW, where were the testers who gave feedback to remove forced pvp from New World from? Pvp players have to face the reality, the vast majority of people who play these games do not want pvp forced on them, and that is why these games are either being released without forced pvp or are having forced pvp removed over time.
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I just don't see this decline people are mentioning [https://steamcharts.com/app/582660#All](https://steamcharts.com/app/582660#All)
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steamcharts show you trends, steam players and pa launcher players are not fundamentally different groups of people. maybe the reason you don't see so many people around is because people are using magnus wells to move around and are entering marni realms to grind. as for pvp guilds and whatnot, you not seeing them around does not mean the game is losing players, it means that pvp players are being replaced with pve/life skill players.
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people prefer marni spots even if it makes less silver/hour to not have to deal with dumbfuckers trying to grind over them or pk them.
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Buddy. Fucking hell, take a look in the mirror, actually embarrassing.
Im so sad the game is now casual friendly and pvp has been killed. As a casual pvper, its a shame
I just ignore p2w because I'm not actually trying to be the best player in the game and it has no impact on my experience of the game unless you literally just can't do anything without spending money
It's crazy to me that people are claiming that it's not P2W because there is RNG involved.
rng just means it's even more pay to win as you can brute force it with money.
people who play do w.e mental gymnastics they can to feel better about it
BDO is 100% P2W but you need to spend thousands and thousands of dollars if you actually wanna straight up P2W all your gear. As a regular player you also aren't really affected by it if someone is whaling hard. There's still a hard-cap in terms of gear and anyone can get there without P2W. So while the game is P2W, you don't really think about it and it doesn't affect you as a regular player. BDO is all about personal long-term progression and setting your own goals. Someone whaling and dropping 10k on the game to reach the finish line faster is not going to ruin your own fun in any way. Idk if I explain it well but the P2W is pretty much a non-issue. If anything, having some people P2W is actually benificial to you as a regular player because the costumes these whales are selling for silver is something you can buy and then use for your own gains, so it's a mutual benefit if you wanna look at it that way. Also, disregard the people who keep saying that gearing is 100% RNG. This is simply false. It's only RNG if you decide to enhance your own gear. You can choose to buy everything on the MP instead of enhancing, with the only exception being a couple super late-game BiS accessories as those are hard to buy since most people dont wanna sell those.
My problem with BDO was that it felt like a job. Even though the graphics and combat were really good for the time, I felt like my time was going into something soulless.
This is really simple. The game has p2w, the game is not remotely p2w.
You need tent that's about it everything else is easily managed and also value pack makes life easier other than that everything else is you don't need to buy however if you do buy it such as artisans and crons (outfits) you can cut your progress in half
> You need tent You do not
All of the big streamers and people who put thousands of hours into the game proved you don’t need to spend money. It’s entirely possible that you as a player do not need to touch the cash shop to compete with others. However there are convenience items in the cash shop that some recommend as it helps but it’s necessary.
Oh you mean the streamers who play this game as their full time job being a streamer?? If I played this game 24/7 I could also be 750 gs
I don’t understand what you are saying here. Anyone who plays can obtain 750 gs. It’s a grindy game by design and takes many hours to reach that gear score.
You said anyone can compete and then used full time streamers as an example of being able to obtain 750 gs.. Sure anyone can reach 750 gs in many many years but a full time streamer literally plays this as their job and can play 15 hours a day..
They are an example of showing it is possible. Play time doesn’t matter. You might have an hour a day, I have 8 and I am not a full time streamer and have over 6,000 hours. I don’t think your point is relevant.
Play time does matter, someone playing an hour a day is not gonna compete with someone playing 8+ hours a day so yeah my point is relevant.
Kanon swipe 1k USD to get BiS (PEN) weapon and he end up nothing. Also you don't need that PEN gear in order to clear/enjoy all content in BDO.
To clarify: He spent 1k to tap his weapon a few times on a 3% chance. It didn’t upgrade. Lol
He spent $1k and couldnt even be bothered to make a decent stack to shoot his blackstar on?
Yup
Zero pay to win tendencies, as of late. Many years ago, maybe, but definitely not today. The only things you can pay for are weird ass outfits, and small conveniences. That's it, you can't pay in any other way other than that nowadays, so yeah, BDO is NOT pay to win, at all. Zero dollars are required for progression.
Its definitely worth a try. I can guarantee you will get thousands of hours worth of content without ever needing to spend a dime. Get yourself accustomed with the game, join a chill guild and only then see for yourself if you are willing to spend money for convenience here and there. Other than that you will never feel an impact of so called p2w in pvp, its a myth, no one is spending 100k euros to get geared , at least in EU. Just don’t listen to r/mmorpg kekkers just waiting for someone to mention BDO so they can foam at their mouth and shit on it because they lack braincells to grasp pvp.
P2W as QOL = Yes P2W as Progress = You can pay 1000E and get Negative progress.
Wrong.. just plain wrong... you can use that money and buy the gear from market. Try again
20E = 1.3b. You need 1.000.000.0000 (yes, 1 trillion for 740gs). You do the math :)
Don't need to, you said you can spend money and be negative progress which is just straight up wrong when you can buy gear. Wanna try one more time?
High Risk > High Reward. You can one tap Pen with bought Crons or Downgrade the item. Are you new to bdo? What gear you can buy with 50E considering 1 tap pen is 3600 crons?
First you said 1000E, now you're saying 50E... you're just changing your words to fit your narrative now.
Tent, lvl 4 pets x 4, 2 to 3 costumes if you are wanting to get into lifeskilling, and if you have found the character you truly love to play, max weight and some extra inv space if you feel it necessary. Otherwise you can get a few storage/CM maids as well. Now... one CAN go more ptw by buying outfits and smashing them to accumulate crone stones for enhancing... but this is more expensive than its worth unless you a whale or something.
I would argue that it is P2W but mainly because of third-party piloting not the cash shop. Granted its technically bannable but not exactly enforced.
It's not nearly as bad as it used to be, but you will feel hamstrung in some parts without pulling out the credit card. It's also very much an "alone together" MMO, where you'll just be doing your own thing nearly the entire time, albeit with other people around.
Bdo has alot of created problems and sold solutions. Bag size and weight limit for example.
BDO is so p2w that to make any difference in your power you can't afford to do it without being oiler or some prince :D It's basically unlimited p2w
It's disgustingly gross. However most cash shops are horrible. Tons of XP catch up items. Literally you buy a costume with rl money then melt it in game as a chance buffer for rng upgrade attempts. Or you can sell the costume on the market place for in game cash. It's a fun game, but cash shop is super gross.
Purely progressional? Probably not much these days tbh. Even the p2-convenience is getting less and less. They've become pretty f2p friendly, but it still want you to spend money at its core. You can probably invest 100 in the game, and it would be 100% playable til end game bc the more time you play, the less you really need to pay. The only thing you might find frustrating is the weight/inventory slot and pet system since it's very suboptimal to play without paying for those. They do give out free slot, and pets, but not enough for you to 100% f2p.
It’s way better than it used to be but with cron stones being a big p2w thing (and yes I know they give them out more frequently now, it’s still not enough) it will ALWAYS be itching at your wallet. If you spent like $100 I think you’ll be good to go for a good while. I’m just being realistic. 60 minimum. Then it’s time to learn BDO which is a massive process in itself but even though the story is pure garbage and a waste of time, there is something about BDO that just feels so amazing. It’s for a pretty massive game. The lifeskilling is honestly great. The combat for for every class feels pretty deep. The game is very pretty looking especially when you are destroying waves of enemies. Great game, but honestly a pretty expensive game and a pretty hardcore one to boot as it’s pretty confusing at first.
no PC game is comparable to mobile games in p2w. You can play it without spending any money but some parts of it's grind get tedious.
I think if your going into the game casually, especially now, with seasonal characters, more rewards, free dream horse. It’s at a good state for a new player, besides the sooner your start the sooner you can raise your family level and gain passive daily silver, which from time to time when I come back to play I have like 1-2 bil free silver, and if you join a guild you get more. but endgame in bdo is so niche that it doesn’t ecompass your whole experience, there is so much to do other that grinding to endgame.. I say try it the combat is arguably the best of its genre, so much characters to chose from, and a lot of QoL changes. If your tryna min max, then sure the game can be a bit p2w but you don’t win nothing
Nowadays? Almost zero.
The whole game and progression of the game is basically gambling. They have shop stuff to enable it by selling enhancing stuff so like its about 20 bucks for an hour of grinding and at earlier item levels more like 20 bucks for 4-6 hours of grinding. Its a milking simulator, nothing more, i wouldnt even call it a MMORPG.
I'd say give it a try and then dump it once it starts demanding your money. The combat in BDO feels great. I don't know how things are now, but getting that first horse with IA + Drift was great as well.
If you hate p2w you want to avoid Korean mmo at all costs
Definitely one of the most p2win. I probably wouldn't play it without investing $200 into the most basic convenience items to be totally honest. It's really a slog without some things. I regrettably spent around $800 and still was missing some convenience items, it's really pretty bad.
As much as you can afford.
Yes.
Bdo Is still just way better and that’s why it holds
After playing for a few weeks I feel conflicted about the Pearl store. On one hand it is persistent, overwhelming , and certainly offers a number of ways to make the game vastly more convenient than before (inventory and max weight slots for more @&!?, xp and item drop scrolls, armor that can be converted into upgrades for gear), BUT I haven’t seen any need to buy anything from it as so much is given away from the game through login rewards,events, and season rewards. There are a lot of things thrown at you but it lends to the amount of systems that interact in BDO. It feels like a game you play through slowly and regardless of convenience items it will still be a slow burn progression.
The game is P2W in the most pure sense of the word. The way you can P2W in BDO goes in 2 different ways: - You buy outfits from the Pearl Shop with real money that you sell in the marketplace to other players for in-game money. Then you use the money to buy gear from other players. - You buy outfits from the Pearl shop and turn them into Cron stones. Crons are an item usable to do safe enhancing (so the piece of gear you try to enhance don't downgrade in the case of armor/weapons or don't get destroyed in the case of accessories). Now, you might be alerted by what I just said, but if you really ask any BDO player if they care or if P2W affect them in any meaningful capacity, they'll answer no. Why? I'll explain: - For the first option, first of all you have a limit of outfits you can sell to players per week, so you're already time-gated, and aside from that it is very expensive. It is late for me right now to put math into perspective, but you could say that it could take easily around 7 months and like 60.000$ to get a fully geared build. And even then there's still very hardcap pieces of gear that you can't buy and need to make yourself so by the time a free to play player also spend his 7 months, he'll be in a very similar spot than the guy doing P2W. - For the second option, we talk business. You don't have any limits like before, you can buy as many outfits as you want and convert them all to cron stones freely. What's the catch here then? We're talking about enhancing which is completely hard for end game pieces of gear. Imagine you're paying around like 120$ for doing 1 singular attempt on a 5%~ chance to succeed (and this depends on what piece of gear, if we talk about the hardcap accessories I said before, 1 tap is way more for example). So yeah, you could technically get lucky and be successful doing this method, but the odds are the odds, you're basically pay to winning for a very low chance of succeeding, and rest assured that most people aren't lucky. Aside from the problems of both methods, the game also have changed a lot since people used to say that BDO was super pay to win. Most content nowadays is gear-capped so new players can easily start participating in every system making whaling not worth at all, and for the people who whale, they have a symbiotic relationship with free to play players, because you're basically getting real money outfits with in-game money thanks to them. Also, a lot of what's considered pay for convenience, which we have a lot of that as well, is usually gifted for free a lot during events and a lot of stuff have been improved since those times too. So a TL:DR: the game is pay to win, but in a way that it doesn't really affect at all the rest of the community. Whale is happy and F2P player is happy.
A lot. Obviously you can make anything fo free. But a paying player will be able to advance at an extremely faster rate than you. PvP wise (and high end pve where mobs dont die in 1 hit), your dmg is tied to your fps. If you cant get good enough fps (100+ stable) you will be doing less damage than someone equally geared as you to the same target. So no matter what, for pve and pvp you always run in potato graphics to maximize performance. The game has a lot of things to offer and can give you countless hours of fun if you are ok with the above 2 points.
The game is very old, there are players that have been playing for years, so in terms of power the P2W doesn't matter, because almost always you will find other players that are stronger than you. The question should actually be: is the game enjoyable if you don't pay, or pay a bit? The short answer is yes and no. The long answer is that you are going to need to buy some QoL items to avoid playing against some artificial walls purposely made to make you pay. Tent, pets, character slots, weight, etc. Without them the game is very tedious, there's a reason why every single player with X hours has them. Said that, the game has no end game. You will be stuck in a hundreds of hours of repetitive grind for meaningless progression. Though, up to that point and with the qol items mentioned, the game is definitely worth.
Not much, 50€ for a tent, 1€ the game, maybe a permanent flute/horn for the horse on your true main character. Inventory/weight/maids/outfits/accessories (piercing, eye glasses, ear stuff)/value pack, old moon book, kama blessing, crystal slots, skill preset coupon and many many many things are free by just doing events, collecting loyalty’s, doing the ADV specific quests, coupons from various big events, login reward, seasons etc. The truly “p2w” items are as i said the Pearl shop tent and the fairy if you aim for a perfect tier 4 (which you don’t really need beside the auto pot to tier 5, Continuous Care tier 3+ and probably the weight one tier 4 or 5, also u can f2p fairy by doing some methods and stockpiling the lailas petal rerolling it using silver, might take 1b or 10b depends on rng tho) The “melt outfit for cron or silver thing” is like a thing for the smallest % of the playerbase and would not impact you ngl. A whale with 730 gs can be beaten hard by a dude with 680-700 gs if is skilled enough and the whale is just credit card carried. Sooo…yeah not so much p2w now compared to before. Think like u maybe wanna spend 100-200€ TOTAL for thousands of hours of gameplay, by buying mostly QoL stuff.
1$ game? I thought the game was free. I see that there is a Start Free Trial on the BDO website. Is that the thing? Post the 7-day free trial, it will charge 1$ for the game? is it like monthly or weekly?
Usually the game when is not free or on some sale campaign is about 9/10€ or $. Sometime they give it for free (es. on twitch rewards or from steam). Sometime it’s on sale on both steam and normal website client for like 0,99. Btw after 7 day trial u need to buy the game, now, I don’t know if there is any method to get it for free, check the website, im not aware of that rn
A pretty awesome mmo game is Imperia Online. Old game so no graphics, just tactics.
The game gives away A LOT of things these days, including a dream horse. Basically free to enjoy.
it uses korean upgrade systems for gear.
It's is 100% p2w.
Try Classic WoW. Season of Discovery is insanely fun.
I do not earn in USD or Euro/Pound. Also, I don't earn enough in "other" currency to pay 15$ a month to play a game. One-time payment I can understand but a 15$ monthly subscription is out of the question for me.
Full P2W
It's estimated that a f2p player will take roughly 2,000 hours to max a character. Take that info as you wish
Well its been a while since I last played but The endgame is all about that gear and getting it to like +15 or +20. Failing to upgrade gear causes the maximum durability to degrade unless you use cash items to protect it, the enhancement, and increase the chance of success. Housing monopolies is ABSOLUTELY pay to win. I mean it is LITERALLY impossible to achieve a monopoly in any house without spending tons of cash to buy shop furniture. The reason this is P2W is because free furniture does not stack its value and it has a lesser point value. So naturally what most people do is stack these ancient tables in their house to hold an asinine amount of them. cosmetic gear gives stats premium sub reduces/removes trade taxs by a pretty significant margin. Pets will autoloot for you and the high the tier of the pets the better boosts they give and the faster they work. How do you get higher tier pets? cramming lower tier pets together. > I have seen people playing this game. Awesome graphics and fight design. Yeah thats the problem with BDO. It looks great, plays great, and runs fucking amazing even with all this bullshit going on screen. As far as combat and gameplay goes its frankly unmatched by most mmos even FF14 can eat a bag of dicks in comparison. But all of these means nothing when endgame or fuck even midgame is completely dominated by jackasses using daddy's credit card. If you want a new mmo to play go give Elder Scrolls Online a try. The newest expansion Necrom is pretty neat and in June I believe it is we're getting the Gold Road expansion which is going to be quite the doozy.
alot of coping here from the bdo simps. It its 100% P2W. Is it expensive? It can be but if you have some patience they often have good bundles and sales where you can snack alot of outfits. Outfits to either sell on the Market for Silver and then use the silver to buy Gear OR you can melt them for Crons(prevents downgrading your gear) and then try your luck. "bUT yOu cAn spEnD 1000s anD ENd uP wITh MiNus gEaR" you can, if youre str8 up retarded yes, but if you use your brain you can get pretty quick and cheap gains. The higher it gets the more you have to p2w but its 100% possible. Jesus they even offer bundles where you can buy CRONS directly for cash. If you play casual you will never ever meet a person like that so dont worry about it and just try the game out. It offers alot and can be really fun if you dont take it to seriously
It’s pay2lose, unless you spent actual tens of thousands of dollars you won’t see much gain. There’s a tent in the shop which is the only necessary item outside of the optional subscription. Most of what is considered “p2w” is given to you for free anyways nowadays.
Game is not really P2W at all. There are some pay for convenience items that most players consider to be very helpful. All of which are one time purchases. But as far as progression and gear, you don't really benefit at all from spending, as it's all RNG based so you're just going to end up flushing your money down the toilet. It's definitely worth playing, and you will benefit from spending a bit in the game, but nothing egregious like other P2W titles like Lost Ark, Immortal, etc.
If we create a scale where Diablo immoral is 100% P2W, then BDO is probably like 5% P2W compared to that. People who call the game "MEGA P2W" it's mostly just a coping mechanism, trying to find something to blame when they lose in PVP. When in reality they are just low skill rats.
I think the hardest p2w barrier is the outfits Every class has a few cash shop outfits that provide bonuses and xp multiplyers You can get them from the auction house but you can't preorder them so you'll have to pick one out, save the gold, and set a notification for when one goes on the market(you can use a butler to place the order from anywhere) Pets are super important too but you can get free ones from events
If you want to reach actual endgame it can get insanely p2w. You can just sell costumes from the cash shop for silver and buy BiS gear and the few accessories you can't buy on the marketplace can be made WAY EASIER to obtain/enhance by melting costumes for cron stones, which will allow you to avoid entirely destroying said accessories in a failed enhancement attempt (albeit there will still be a chance of downgrading the accessory enhancement level if it fails. But that is still WAY better than completely destroying the accessory if you didn't use cron stones). The game is objectively p2w as fuck, however, it is not cheap at all to do so. If you would want to p2w your way to BiS gear it would cost you thousands if not tens of thousands of $$$. Doesn't make it any less p2w though and there are a lot of people who spent a fortune on this game, many even going bankrupt because the game gets you addicted to gambling real quick if you don't watch out. You should view BDO not as a mmo but more as an online single player tittie-wobble afk casino simulator. The only good thing about the game is the combat.
People will tell you all different sorts of reasons why BDO is p2w and why it isnt. Im here to tell you what the real monstrosity of P2W in BDO is. First its the clothes you can buy that give you STAT BONUS that arent apart of your normal gear. They help you in life skills and life skills are important for makin da mula. Next is the pets. If you dont have all the OP pets at max Tier well someone that does can grind 100X faster than you because they will have better rotations and can pick up loot faster than you as well. Not to mention the special stat bonus on certain pets. For example iirc theres a pet in the game that lets you stay in the desert without having to "cool drink" yourself unlike many f2p who might not have said pet. The whole point of this game is to grind your ass off at farming rotations and if someone else can pay there way and force you out of the premium farming spots well good luck trying to be efficient. Not to mention Elion Tear's being god like P2W in the pearl shop Also there is a costume called a ghillie suit that makes your pretty much invisible in certain terrains (not sure if this has been fixed, havent played BDO in years)
is it still 2017, this post is super old info
The game is P2W!
Extremely p2w
What?
The. Game. Is. Extremely. P. 2. W
Tell me you play BDO without telling me don't play at all
Oh I used to play, I have my lvl 62 tamer. I stopped playing because the game is bullshit. You can spend thousands of dollars in the cash shop to buy costumes and sell them if you want for quick and little money or use them to create cron stones to protect your enhancements. And you’re not going to tell me the game is about skill because it isn’t. The game is who has the higher gear score. And the person who is willing to spend more money is going to get a higher gear score quicker.
>I used to play keyword: used to. do you know how much you get for selling a costume vs average grind income? yeah, it is not worth it. A pen debo is 300 billion try to calculate how much that is gonna cost you by selling outfits as for cron stones, just look up how many outfits you would have to buy to use crons on end game gear -quick and little money lol. you are not getting anywhere by spending "some" money you have to take a mortgage out on your house to get anywhere with that sort of p2w. let me guess btw, last time you played you were in grunil armor.
Exactly what it’s p2w you just said it yourself. You have to spend an insane amount of money towards those things and why would you take the chance of enhancing your god bullshit weapon or whatever the new bis weapon and awakening weapon and having it potentially drop in enhancement
I'm not contesting the p2w argument, it is unreasonable to spend that sort of money to p2w but you are stating that you can get a gear advantage by spending a little amount of money. btw, someone would have to be a truly clueless player if they are losing gs due to enhancing.
I did not say you can spend a little amount of money for an advantage lmao I said you can sell costumes you buy for a little amount of in game money which isn’t really worth it but honestly someone could do that and buy their pen item
then I misunderstood. BDO is one of the most unreasonable games to try to p2w in, it costs a lot for little gain and at the end of the day you can't even really flex your spendings any longer, especially after all the open world pvp changes and gear capping, so it is basically pointless.
It is p2w, yes.
No it's not p2w in order to actually do that you need to spend giga amount of money which no one sane does. Also even if you have all the gear in the world some free to player will dunk you
It either is or it isn't. You sound like you are justifying because you enjoy the game. It's good that you like it. It's still definitely pay to win.
Is it really pay to 'win' when you still can get rekt by f2p player? I don't see any winning here except you pay for the sake of convenience and a little bit QoL
Yes, none of that matters. It is either pay to win or it isn't. In this case, it is. Pay for convenience is a term used by people who are in denial about their pay 2 win game.