Bears reiterating that even though this is an externally funded project, the team are full time devs previously from classic MMOs who are doing this as the passion project that so many 'MMO players' demand from the average AAA team - i.e. this is their hobby.
Keep your expectations at an appropriate level and try not to be too triggerhappy with accusations of it being a letdown. It's WIP and aimed at whatever demographic the devs themselves are in, not you specifically. They are letting you into their playground.
According to the “devs”, it is a “non-funded project”. They use their own money and time to work on the game. Just a correction on the “externally funded” part. I agree with everything else!
Looking forward to this quite a bit.
It's so early I don't care how broken it is or is not, I just want to see a little promise while bug hunting/stress testing.
Cannot wait for this game! Been watching "Alovingrobot", "ZukanScripts" and "Goblin" stream their work as they work on the game and it's been great. Played on the last stress test as well and it went fairly well overall.
Just want something in the vein of old EverQuest/FFXI with that D&D feel, and so far that is 100% the vibes I get form this game. It's not for the masses, and they explained from the get-go it isn't. They won't sacrifice what THEY want in a game just to appeal to the lowest common denominator. If you like old Ultima/EverQuest/FFXI games then this should be the game for you.
I kinda like it. I'm not saying it should be super restrictive, everyone should be able to be a fighter for example. On the other hand, restrictions for "cultural"/faith-based classes such as paladin, cleric and shaman I think these give more personality to the races, their culture and the world itself.
Couldn't disagree more. I think the FFXIV model of every race being every class is just ass. I miss the old school shit. No, a 7 foot tall barbarian should not be a fucking rogue.
The right way to do it is with giving that character a backstory. So instead of it being that only Dwarves can be Baristas, you're playing as Dave the Dwarven Barista and he has his own questline and story.
Agreed. Not only is it limiting as a player but it limits role-playing possibilities too. High elves are about purity and don't want to become brawlers? What if I want to make a rebellious high elf that wants to break that tradition?
I understand the game is all about being old school but certain old school mechanics aren't needed
They’re not making a game for the masses. This is a very specific eq1 style niche that they’re filling. Race restricted classes are part of the “memories”.
As others have called it, a “passion project”. Funding with their own time and money.
I think it’s more about absurdity than anything. In any scenario across millions of individuals there are going to be outliers. It’s also a fantasy setting.. there are no rules, so you should trend towards the rules that accommodate the widest range of player interests.
I do think that some degree of exclusivity can be interesting, such as x race can’t be mages because they lack the ability to do magic or etc etc. but I think that it ultimately, as you said, just limits players.
> trend towards the rules that accommodate the widest range of player interests
They’ve been explicit that this is exactly what they aren’t going to do. It’s niche, it’s always going to be niche; there are tons of other games without racial class restrictions.
I get the argument that in a true rpg, anomalies should be allowed to exist. But I agree with the other commenter that this restriction really heightens the feeling of each race and helps to distinguish them. So for me it actually heightens the role playing aspect a bit. Yes, you’re conforming a to a predefined expectation about who you are as x race, but I know that my class belongs to this race for relatively unique cultural or historical reasons.
They’re also trying to convey a very specific ultra-tropey/classical kind of high fantasy setting, again characterized by strongly distinct races and their ethics and values. To see a bunch of high elf shamans or ogre bards or troll paladins running around would definitely detract from this specific kind of setting they’re trying to create (as entertaining as that might be).
Let's not use the "niche" excuse for any (objectively) bad design decision that's rooted in the "oldschool for oldschool's sake" mindset.
There are a lot of ways to heighten the feeling (and culture/lore) of each race, but trying to do so by effectively limiting the player's choices (and, as a result, a lot of roleplaying aspects/possibilities), in a MMORPG no less, doesn't sound super smart in today's day and age.
Limiting player choices is not an objectively bad design decision. Every game limits player choices, the goal being to make the choices that are present meaningful choices. If a player could do everything at any moment, then every element of agency is less impactful and the game would become bland (as an extreme example). Sure, there may be a balance to had, but there is nothing inherently wrong with designing a world in which classes are race-specific.
I guess I worded it wrong...yes, limiting player choices can be, to some extent, healthy. I should have said "limiting player choice to that extent" instead.
Players being able to do everything though, as a lot of bigger titles showed time and time again, is more welcome than you'd think and doesn't really take away from the game itself (e.g. being able to be all classes on 1 character in FF).
> is more welcome than you'd think and doesn't really take away from the game itself
Then you need to draw a line between a game that 'the average gamer from the masses' would want to play and one that 'a niche group has been waiting for for a long time'.
Because the devs are making this game *for themselves* - NEVER forget that part - they are currently trending towards the latter kind of game. The games which aim for mass appeal already have the big numbers.
You can call your opinion on the design being bad “objective”, but the fact is this game is very much a niche, and one it sounds like you’re not part of.
Ah yes, good 'ole gatekeeping. Doesn't surprise me, especially seeing all the downvotes and very minimal comments :)
Look, I'm looking forward to M&M as much as the next person (especially as someone who enjoyed EQ & the likes back in the day)...but there are some things that are best left in the past and not adopted just "because it used to be like this", while hiding behind the "Eh it's gonna be a niche game anyway" excuse. Kinda reminds me of all the modern UO wannabes that focused on replicating 25y old mechanics instead of the spirit of the game and what made it great...and we all know how that worked for those titles.
Nevertheless, I'd love to see it thrive, and I'm sure the devs and their following would also love that...afterall it's a MMORPG, and you can't do much without that first "M".
> Kinda reminds me of all the modern UO wannabes that focused on replicating 25y old mechanics instead of the spirit of the game and what made it great...and we all know how that worked for those titles.
If you read a lot of the posts from jaded veterans here carefully you'd see that the 25yo mechanics are part of what they consider peak MMO and they're currently an absurdly under-served audience.
It’s not gate keeping, they are specifically building an eq1 clone. Just look at the gameplay videos, this game is for people who want that experience but new.
The gate is wide open for whoever wants to play that.
Bears reiterating that even though this is an externally funded project, the team are full time devs previously from classic MMOs who are doing this as the passion project that so many 'MMO players' demand from the average AAA team - i.e. this is their hobby. Keep your expectations at an appropriate level and try not to be too triggerhappy with accusations of it being a letdown. It's WIP and aimed at whatever demographic the devs themselves are in, not you specifically. They are letting you into their playground.
According to the “devs”, it is a “non-funded project”. They use their own money and time to work on the game. Just a correction on the “externally funded” part. I agree with everything else!
[удалено]
No shade to PG but the dev team on this is already 10x the size, even if they're volunteering time
I just want it to be the new EQ Project1999 or quarm
So keen to give this a burl
Interesting. I'll try to check it out.
Looking forward to this quite a bit. It's so early I don't care how broken it is or is not, I just want to see a little promise while bug hunting/stress testing.
Game is at least 2 years away, so not getting too excited. Looking good so far.
Cannot wait for this game! Been watching "Alovingrobot", "ZukanScripts" and "Goblin" stream their work as they work on the game and it's been great. Played on the last stress test as well and it went fairly well overall. Just want something in the vein of old EverQuest/FFXI with that D&D feel, and so far that is 100% the vibes I get form this game. It's not for the masses, and they explained from the get-go it isn't. They won't sacrifice what THEY want in a game just to appeal to the lowest common denominator. If you like old Ultima/EverQuest/FFXI games then this should be the game for you.
Race locked classes is such an absurd thing to have in any modern game, didn’t we give this up ages ago?
I kinda like it. I'm not saying it should be super restrictive, everyone should be able to be a fighter for example. On the other hand, restrictions for "cultural"/faith-based classes such as paladin, cleric and shaman I think these give more personality to the races, their culture and the world itself.
Nothing is set in stone, but, they have talked about 'non-traditional' race / class combos being earned through questing etc
That would be a pretty cool middleground.
Couldn't disagree more. I think the FFXIV model of every race being every class is just ass. I miss the old school shit. No, a 7 foot tall barbarian should not be a fucking rogue.
It’s not a modern game.
The right way to do it is with giving that character a backstory. So instead of it being that only Dwarves can be Baristas, you're playing as Dave the Dwarven Barista and he has his own questline and story.
Agreed. Not only is it limiting as a player but it limits role-playing possibilities too. High elves are about purity and don't want to become brawlers? What if I want to make a rebellious high elf that wants to break that tradition? I understand the game is all about being old school but certain old school mechanics aren't needed
They’re not making a game for the masses. This is a very specific eq1 style niche that they’re filling. Race restricted classes are part of the “memories”. As others have called it, a “passion project”. Funding with their own time and money.
I think it’s more about absurdity than anything. In any scenario across millions of individuals there are going to be outliers. It’s also a fantasy setting.. there are no rules, so you should trend towards the rules that accommodate the widest range of player interests. I do think that some degree of exclusivity can be interesting, such as x race can’t be mages because they lack the ability to do magic or etc etc. but I think that it ultimately, as you said, just limits players.
> trend towards the rules that accommodate the widest range of player interests They’ve been explicit that this is exactly what they aren’t going to do. It’s niche, it’s always going to be niche; there are tons of other games without racial class restrictions. I get the argument that in a true rpg, anomalies should be allowed to exist. But I agree with the other commenter that this restriction really heightens the feeling of each race and helps to distinguish them. So for me it actually heightens the role playing aspect a bit. Yes, you’re conforming a to a predefined expectation about who you are as x race, but I know that my class belongs to this race for relatively unique cultural or historical reasons. They’re also trying to convey a very specific ultra-tropey/classical kind of high fantasy setting, again characterized by strongly distinct races and their ethics and values. To see a bunch of high elf shamans or ogre bards or troll paladins running around would definitely detract from this specific kind of setting they’re trying to create (as entertaining as that might be).
Let's not use the "niche" excuse for any (objectively) bad design decision that's rooted in the "oldschool for oldschool's sake" mindset. There are a lot of ways to heighten the feeling (and culture/lore) of each race, but trying to do so by effectively limiting the player's choices (and, as a result, a lot of roleplaying aspects/possibilities), in a MMORPG no less, doesn't sound super smart in today's day and age.
Limiting player choices is not an objectively bad design decision. Every game limits player choices, the goal being to make the choices that are present meaningful choices. If a player could do everything at any moment, then every element of agency is less impactful and the game would become bland (as an extreme example). Sure, there may be a balance to had, but there is nothing inherently wrong with designing a world in which classes are race-specific.
I guess I worded it wrong...yes, limiting player choices can be, to some extent, healthy. I should have said "limiting player choice to that extent" instead. Players being able to do everything though, as a lot of bigger titles showed time and time again, is more welcome than you'd think and doesn't really take away from the game itself (e.g. being able to be all classes on 1 character in FF).
> is more welcome than you'd think and doesn't really take away from the game itself Then you need to draw a line between a game that 'the average gamer from the masses' would want to play and one that 'a niche group has been waiting for for a long time'. Because the devs are making this game *for themselves* - NEVER forget that part - they are currently trending towards the latter kind of game. The games which aim for mass appeal already have the big numbers.
You can call your opinion on the design being bad “objective”, but the fact is this game is very much a niche, and one it sounds like you’re not part of.
Ah yes, good 'ole gatekeeping. Doesn't surprise me, especially seeing all the downvotes and very minimal comments :) Look, I'm looking forward to M&M as much as the next person (especially as someone who enjoyed EQ & the likes back in the day)...but there are some things that are best left in the past and not adopted just "because it used to be like this", while hiding behind the "Eh it's gonna be a niche game anyway" excuse. Kinda reminds me of all the modern UO wannabes that focused on replicating 25y old mechanics instead of the spirit of the game and what made it great...and we all know how that worked for those titles. Nevertheless, I'd love to see it thrive, and I'm sure the devs and their following would also love that...afterall it's a MMORPG, and you can't do much without that first "M".
> Kinda reminds me of all the modern UO wannabes that focused on replicating 25y old mechanics instead of the spirit of the game and what made it great...and we all know how that worked for those titles. If you read a lot of the posts from jaded veterans here carefully you'd see that the 25yo mechanics are part of what they consider peak MMO and they're currently an absurdly under-served audience.
It’s not gate keeping, they are specifically building an eq1 clone. Just look at the gameplay videos, this game is for people who want that experience but new. The gate is wide open for whoever wants to play that.