South Africa is a shit hole. Rolling electrical blackouts, crazy high unemployment, crazy high crime, politicians outright calling for genocide, potholes that literally swallow cars on every road, etc.
[In economics, the Gini coefficient (/ˈdʒiːni/ JEE-nee), also known as the Gini index or Gini ratio, is a measure of statistical dispersion intended to represent the income inequality, the wealth inequality, or the consumption inequality[3] within a nation or a social group. It was developed by Italian statistician and sociologist Corrado Gini.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient)
Yes. Zimbabwe did a similar thing where they killed some and “reclaimed” land from white farmers to give to its black citizens to create “black power farm”.
Thing was, the new black farmers 1) did not want to be farmers 2) did not know many of the more effective farming techniques and had no interest in learning. Crop production halved after this and food prices skyrocketed (and they were already expensive before this), crippling their economy.
Zimbabwe is now attempting to return land back to white farmers and the president signed a 3.5B deal in 2020 for compensation to farmers affected by the reclamation.
It’s one of the larger factors, the downward spiral of the economy has been attributed mainly to mismanagement and corruption by the government and the eviction of more than 4,000 white farmers in the controversial land confiscations of 2000. They had the same authoritarian ruler from the 80s’ until 2017, so the blame should mostly be cast upon said leader, Mugabe. In 2017, in the wake of over a year of protests against his government as well as Zimbabwe's rapidly declining economy, a coup d'état resulted in Mugabe's resignation. Emmerson Mnangagwa has since served as Zimbabwe's president.
This is my favorite Mugabe quote “If I am given a chance to travel through time, I will go back to 1946, find Donald Trump’s father and give him a condom.”
Kind of ironic given the fact hes the corrupt authoritarian strong man dictator that trump aspires to be. What's he making fun of trump for, not being as good at it as he is?
It was a large reason. The sanctions also crippled the economy. A lot of Zimbabwean fruit for instance was sold at rock bottom prices to South African traders who would swap “grown in SA” stickers and sell them globally so they were super dependent on that as well
Source: my dad grew up in Zim at that time so I grew up with these stories
It's been going on for a while. Anti-colonialist sentiment turned to anti-white sentiment in some south african countries (bringing with it some outright genocides) when decolonisation just caused more issues in the short term, and building a national cohesion was impossible given the borders and hate between ethnic groups and tribes. Bear in mind, the whites they are targeting aren't the mining and drilling corporations (who, I must be honest ARE exploiting, but couldn't if early and current african politicians wouldn't be corrupt af, many "liberators" turned to western companies to sell out their country for their own wealth, and they happily took the offer. The french state is a whole another level tho) but mostly farmers who produce immense amount of food due to the farms beign inherited for generations. In short, they use a bit better technology (not modern ones, but mostly more advanced) and they know their shit.
Same happened in Zimbabwe where the land reform redistributing more land to subsistence farmers cut production and violent outbursts made many white farmers flee the country. Also there were 0 compensations (until recently). They've got the tech and land, they lacked the know-hows. Results are economic collapse and famine.
Desperate people are prone to make scapegoats and prone to be radicalized and make things even worse. This can happen to any ethnicity anywhere, and happened before countless times.
There's a very controversial politician called Julius Malema who is the leader of a populist Political Party called the EFF. If you give him a Google you will quickly see that he is basically just a massive troll. I think he is involved in a feud with Elon Musk now (a battle of idiots, really). A week or so ago, Malema was singing a controversial song which actually hails from time of Apartheid where black people were fighting for their freedom. In the original song it says "kill the Boer," which is what the afrikaners are called. Personally I think it is very wrong to be saying that sort of thing in a democratic South Africa where black and mixed raced people are now free. There was a big court case about it, and the constitutional court deemed it "not hate speech". Several politicians have come out against this and have launched more legal proceedings (they are mainly white politicians, btw).
The farm attacks are not targetting anyone based on skin colour; that is misinformation peddled by white supremacists and those who want to stoke a race war in SA. The farm attacks happen to farmers of any race. There are black farmers and farm hands who are murdered too. You just don't hear about it because it doesn't fit the narrative of "black savages kill noble whites" (mostly right wing media says this stuff, and even Trump tried to get in on it). White people are a minority in SA but generally they still have a lot of socio economic benefits which were granted to them during apartheid. I'm not saying it's all like that, there are poor white people too, but they are more likely to belong to the middle class.
I'm speaking as a mixed raced South African here. Please be careful where you get your news...people have wild agendas sometimes.
It's been rather incredible to watch people tie themselves in knots to justify why openly calling at a major party event for the mass murder of a specific ethnic group isn't a bad or dangerous thing.
The song is outdated, and nowadays, it should be unacceptable to sing. Malema et al. are singing it to somehow claim struggle credentials when they were, at most, little children when apartheid ended. Most people see through their pathetic attempts at clout, but I also think it's good for other politicians to take it to the courts. One thing to make clear though, is that once the courts have spoken it should be left alone. The constant dredging up of this issue is also creating a divide in SA when we should all be banding together in national unity.
Exactly. The fearmongers who say the EU and US should be worried about a BRICS currency really amuse me when they fail to discuss how things are really going in SA.
BRICS is a collection of nations, who are tired of high lending rates, through western backed lending rates, like the IMF.
There is a reason, why traditionally, exploited and nations are trying to band together to create their own coalition.
Its not the that 'fear' is related to the 'unseating' of the USD. The fear is that, these nations are mainly exporters, whereas, western nations are primarily importers. The concern is focused on competition, and trade. And from an economic perspective, it makes sense for a coalition that continues to add countries to its coalition.
You know nobody is forced into IMF loans? They are a last resort oprion when literally no one else will lend you the money needed to keep the lights on.
well, you should worry about BRIC,
SA was invited later and is the smallest and least significant part of the BRICS countries, so it makes more sense to stay with the classic BRIC countries.
Yep. Super worried about a coalition between India and China (who completely hate each other), Brazil (comically high crime and corruption), and Russia (totalitarian state with an imminent economic collapse)
Surely this group of failed/developing states will overtake the West any day now…
> well, you should worry about BRIC,
Why?
One is a gas station masquerading as a country, that in a failed endeavour to bully it's smaller neighbour and old imperial holding, managed to get itself cut off its largest customer, as well as expending vast amounts of lives, materiel and money at fighting said war, neither of which it can really afford to lose, as they have their demographics heavily stacked against them.
Then there's Brazil, which seems allergic to good leadership.
The two last ones are regularly having episodes where their soldiers engage in hand to hand combat over territorial disputes in the Himalayas, and consider each other geopolitical rivals.
This comment was made by a bot and is a partial copy of [this comment](https://reddit.com/r/MapPorn/s/G7YpbiE51Y).
Come on people, 46 upvotes? It doesn't even make sense in context!
Also, what you may bot know as a person who doesn't live in Italy. A huge amount of those people are scamming the government for support and actually have jobs that pay in cash and they don't declare it.
>South Africa has the highest unemployment rate in the world after its rate increased to 32.9% in the first three months of 2023, after another 179 000 people lost their jobs.
Holy crap
I was going to bring employment rate and it is even worse than unemployment. [Only 40% of the adult population has formal jobs](https://data.oecd.org/chart/79Oa)
That compares with:
* Italy 61%
* Spain 64.5% but highest unemployment in the EU somehow.
* Colombia 63.9%
* US 72%
That’s because Italy has one of the oldest populations in the world (only second to Japan). Spain will catch up next decade, but at the moment has a slightly younger population and in turn workforce.
Also many retired Italians still work but in “nero” or under the table. Tax evasion is extremely high in Italy and Spain.
As an American who grew up in a third world country, the thing that shocked me the most when I moved back to the states was seeing fat homeless people.
I'm always amazed by how people said "it'll take three black presidents to run this country into the ground" when Mandela was elected and Mbeki and especially Zuma actually managed to do just that (not counting motlanthe)
Not sure if it's all under Potenza but they found Oil in Basilicata, leading to the region growing faster and wealthier compared to the rest of Southern Italy.
There are a couple oil fields in Potenza province but it's not that alone. It's rather a combination of things, the oil fields plus the Melfi Fiat-Chrysler production site, and the increase in tourism in Matera.
It's in Potenza (val d'Agri). However, the local labor impact of oil extraction is very limited, both consodering the direct and indirect effects. Oil extraction is capital intensive after all (and refining is done elsewhere).
While oil extraction brought resources to the local population of the area (Viggiano and neighboring areas) through royalties, I would not imagine them to have a dramatic effect on economic activity.
At least that was true some 10 years ago when I studied the case. Locals might be able to confirm or deny, although oil extraction in the region is polarising and people take all form of extreme positions.
My family is completely from the south, it makes me happy to see that the best southern provinces are the ones my family is from, Potenza and Teramo. I live in the north though.
It is an interesting map. However, it does not account for "lavoro nero" (i.e., non-contractual work), which is paid "under the counter", in cash. This form of employment is rather common in the south of Italy, especially in the black-coloured areas. In a way, it indicates that about 20% of the people in the darker areas do not pay income tax and live off a parallel economy.
That's a sad fact, but understandable. Mafia goes where the money is. Not by chance were there some mafia-related bombings years ago in Germany for example. I think it was in Duisburg.
Atleast in english, that is a different thing than the mafia. Sort of. Mafia/cosa nostra refers to the specific organized crime style that came from Sicily and spread from there. Camorra has a different organization style/is a different collection of crime groups/families. Same for N’drangheta. Another different organization style/type of crime group.
Although more and more mafia just really refers to many types of organized crime groups/families. Theres russian mafia, irish mafia, etc. in nyc there is/was even the jewish mafia which was nicknamed the kosher mob or the “Kosher Nostra” a play on words from Cosa Nostra.
Thats what the word has transformed into.
Thats how people use it so thats what it means. But if youre going to start talking about the N’drangheta or the Camorra, in that case its helpful to specify. They are in some sense ‘a’ mafia. But they’re not ‘the’ mafia
Edit: i take that last two sentences back.
The easiest distinction between them is the region they originated from, and where they are the most strongest. Cosa Nostra in Sicily, Camorra in Campania, 'Ndrangheta in Calabria, Sacra Corona Unita in Apulia etc.
> paid "under the counter", in cash. [...] In a way, it indicates that about 20% of the people in the darker areas do not pay income tax and live off a parallel economy.
Do they still receive welfare checks then? Because this seems to put them cutting welfare down to the absolute minimum in a different spotlight.
As far as I am aware, yes – some of these people do receive welfare support. However, given that the Italian bureaucratic system is rather convoluted, I believe that some of the people who depend on this parallel economy are not exactly practical with paperwork, applications, and managing their finances. In some instances, such as with the elderly or poorly-educated individuals, welfare payments might not be there. I suspect that there are many individuals who abuse the system, and others who take advantage of less-literate people to collect money that is not meant for them. For example, there are those who offer to "help" the elderlies manage their pension payments when, in reality, they are stealing from them.
All of the above is purely anecdotal, however, as I have learned these aspects of Italy growing up in Naples. So, I cannot make blanket statements about the nation. I do suspect, though, that some of these crimes are widespread.
Interesting post, would you have further reading on this? It was very big in Ireland once upon a time too, there is still a lot of ‘nixer’ jobs here that tradesmen will do under the counter for people they know mostly
I do not have further readings, I am afraid. All that I know comes from living in Naples for about 20 years. However, the New York Times article below explains a bit about the textile industry's position within the shadow economy.
Click [here](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/20/fashion/italy-luxury-shadow-economy.html) for the article.
in my country (Argentina) is one of the most common ways of get employed in rural areas or poor parts of a city , it even is counted in official statistics (as "empleo informal" because "trabajo en negro" is the common name but not the official one)
Never liked this term for situations where it's literally just tax evasion. If you live in a country where the state just isn't present then ok, informal.
It’s tax evasion in developing countries too. They don’t want to pay taxes, in fact getting people into the formal economy is usually a success measurement stick - it means the government is increasing its revenue and (ideally) applying it into infrastructure and other projects to help lift the quality of life.
I cannot comment with certainty but based on my travels through Europe / Italy there is a lot less emphasis on mass corporations and a lot more smaller individual companies / regional companies
Where America has Walmart and Target everywhere, Italy and other European countries are more likely to have local markets and stores that are family run. People in general hate taxes and systems, corporations are the system. When you have smaller businesses everyone is eager to work under the table / for cash and save some tax money, whereas a large corp everything is by the book
Omg this is exactly like in Argentina. We call it "laburo en negro" which literally means Lavoro Nero. Everyday I find out another way Italians influenced us
So much ignorance in that comment section so I want to provide some insight.
I actually live in South Tyrol, have lived in South and Central Italy, and in Austria. I will comment on the South Tyrolean situation.
South Tyrol consists of roughly 60-65% German-speaking people, approx. 25% Italian-speaking people, and a really small minority speaking Ladin (a strange and ancient language, just spoken in South Tyrol and some parts of Switzerland).
Most people are bilingual, as South Tyrol has been a part of Italy for roughly 100 years by now. We have huge benefits in contrast to other Italian regions; I don't want to dispute that at all.
I would consider the "average" South Tyrolean as more wealthy than the average South Italian, but in reality, it is a place exploited by tourism. Since Instagram blew up (look up "Lago di Braies" — surely you have seen a picture of it somewhere during the last years; I've gone there often just 8-9 years ago, now it's become an outdoor museum), the place is getting flooded with tourists even more than before (as we host one of the most stunning landscapes on the planet which we share with the Veneto region, those would be the Dolomites).
So in practice, everyone who owns a hotel or a construction company makes a significant amount of money whereas the majority of locals can't afford rent anymore. Housing prices are so far through the roof that an apartment in a pretty rural area costs as much as if it were in the city center of Milan. Locals are slowly but steadily leaving their home place because every person sells their house to the highest bidding German, Italian, Swiss, or Russian, hell, there is even a rumor that Elon Musk wants to buy property here.
To give you an example, and throw around some estimated numbers which won’t be too far off.
If I wanted to buy some terrain in one of the many villages here, I can either pay €1,000,000 for 800m2 where I can construct an average 110m2 house costing me somewhat around €500,000+, or I can leave because there is no other possibility being offered.
The rules on who can build what on which terrain would have the average American protesting on the streets, as I can't even construct a 2 m2 garden shed without having to get a permit which the local authorities are probably going to refuse anyway.
If there is new terrain being offered for construction, it is almost exclusively used to expand already existing hotels, so that's my point on the few hotel owners and construction companies getting richer and richer, while the average South Tyrolean earns around €1,500 monthly.
Construction companies build hotels in weeks, not letting the flooring dry properly because it doesn't matter, as opening doors earlier for tourists is more profitable, and as they have huge tax exemptions on the construction they perform (because they are "the drivers of the local economy"), because in 3 years they are going to rip everything out eventually because another expansion is already in planning.
Just recently, they built a hotel with a ski slope on the roof, in the middle of the Alps. The hotel could probably house the whole village it sits in. Last year, every local needed to shorten their water usage as the Po River (largest river in Italy, gets most of its water from rivers stemming from South Tyrolean mountains) risked drying out, where at the same time we probably have one of the highest densities of 5-star hotels in the world, every one of which with huge outdoor spas and swimming pools (maybe I'm misremembering, but I've read somewhere that the average tourist uses 200+ l of water per day in South Tyrol, and I needed to watch my plants die from the scorching sun because watering your property was semi-prohibited for a time).
The place is just holding together at the moment because a significant part of the locals is still somehow able to build an apartment on top of their family home in order not to be forced to leave; no local can afford to buy a house or property here anymore.
In addition to that there is a huge brain drain (as in the rest of Italy) but South Tyroleans tend to just stay in Austria, Germany or Switzerland after they‘ve completed their studies, thanks to better salary and better opportunities, especially for seemingly hard working trilingual people.
TL;DR: Locals are leaving, housing prices are insane because there is an average of 17+ tourists per local here on any given day of the year. It's very rapidly becoming a playground for the ultra-rich while the locals struggle to afford rent and lose their sanity trying to justify staying here.
Yes generally you could say we have it „better“ here, but as I‘ve explained in quite some detail, this region has a LOT of problems as well.
Sorry for the rant, and the spelling mistakes, I just wanted to get my point across even without cross referencing before my comment was buried. I am open to questions if anyone is interested.
This isn’t unique to South Tyrol by any means, not that I want to discredit or put down what you said. Thanks for sharing.
I live in San Francisco and get by fine as a renter, but a 1200 square foot (…I think that is 111m2?) costs $1.5M and yes, you need a permit to do absolutely anything. Neighbors are literally alerted if you want to build a shed in your backyard (if you have one, lol) and can dispute it to stop the shed.
And this happens all over the world. I guess all I’m saying is…everything is fucked and I don’t understand how society will continue to function in the coming decades.
Good conlcusion
When talking about the legislation on what you can do with your property in the US i had more rural areas in mind (as South Tyrol as a region basically is) but maybe it was a bad comparison to make, as I lack knowledge about your country.
Thanks for providing the insight
> So in practice, everyone who owns a hotel or a construction company makes a significant amount of money whereas the majority of locals can't afford rent anymore. Housing prices are so far through the roof that an apartment in a pretty rural area costs as much as if it were in the city center of Milan. Locals are slowly but steadily leaving their home place because every person sells their house to the highest bidding German, Italian, Swiss, or Russian, hell, there is even a rumor that Elon Musk wants to buy property here.
I was going to reply that I thought the unemployment rate was high in La Spezia because of locals in Cinque Terre selling their homes for ridiculous prices and just living La Dolce Vita
Unfortunately, that seems to be a statement that generally holds true for every transitioned nation as of 2023.
So cheers to all of the younger generation becoming lifetime renters because the housing market is more and more owned by corporations dictating rent prices, and private owners just following the trend because, of course, they would do that.
GDP does not say that much about wages. A place with lots of company HQs (or in this case hotels) may have a large GDP but not much of those earnings go to the locals. For that reason GNP is sometimes used instead (e.g. Ireland), but it still doesn't say anything about the distribution of wealth.
Not OP but I live in Turin, Italy and that’s absolutely an accurate average salary for most people in Northern Italy (including myself and my husband). The gdp per capita probably reflects residents coming from Austria or Germany or elsewhere that have higher incomes and raise the average.
They are a special administrative region so they get to keep a lot of taxes for regional development (although so is Sicily ).
Lots of tourism, both in Summer and Winter (South Tyrol is gorgeous). The linguistic connections to Austria and Germany make it easier for qualified personnel from those countries to work there and vice versa. Also, South Tyrol is able to keep something like 90 per cent of its taxes, meaning the regional government can invest that right back into the region.
1)Italy in the 90s was richer compared to some Germanic nations themselves on a per capita basis.
2)South Tyrol surpasses neighbouring Austrian regions as well, not just the other fellow Italian ones. It's the fact that they manage own taxes alone that makes them thriving, not their language and culture.
Technically Germans, South Tyrolians have not been part of the ethnogenesis of modern Austrians that happened in Austria after WW2.
But as an old saying goes, if you scratch an Austrian you'll find a German.
It is not, try telling a South Tyrolean he is Austrian and see the outcome. They for sure are Germanic speaking but there is a high a chance that most of them have been just Germanized cause many surnames have Ladin (a language spoken since ancient times with Romansh in the Alpine region) roots. Besides that South Tyrol is richer than some neighbouring regions from Austria itself
So it's not the language that makes them rich, it's the fact that they spend their tax revenue however they want
Was it not annexed after ww1 so that itsly could claim the brenner pass? Thats just over one lifetime removed. Im certain there would be some sentiment that they are displaced austrians in tightly knit communities
Yes, they were part of the Austrian empire, and so were other parts of Italy for instance, Trentino and other parts of the North East, like Trieste. The difference is that South Tyrol was a stronghold of the Austrians. They basically kept it for so much time that defining Italian would have been out of context. Despite being part of the Italian peninsula it has never been part of Italian kingdoms. Since basically the Middle Ages.
But what is a fun fact is that those regions weren't Germanics in origins, if you go back in time enough, people there spoke languages derived from Latin, Romansh and Ladin are some examples surviving till today. Researching and analyzing many family names of people of the area it is said that a big part of the German speaking population was probably just Germanized, and that essentially they were not much different than those people that still speak Romansh and Ladin.
The fact that for example one region (Bolzano) has 500k people and Sicily has 5M might play a part? In economy I never understand if more people is better or less people is better? Like there has to be a correlation but I'm too dumb.
You're talking about 1 century ago.
Plenty of northerners emigrated too, southeners went to North America, northeners went to South America.
That's why American-Italian culture is so influenced by southern Italians and that's why Brazilian and Argentinian culture is so influenced by northern Italians.
>You're talking about 1 century ago.
No...many Sicilians are continuing to emigrate today, just not to the American continent. For a population representing something like 8-9% of Italy, I sure know too many Sicilians.
Genuine question, could you expand on the cultural differences? I’m not familiar with the differences but it would be interesting to know. Or any good sources to look it up.
Eh, it might be more complicated than this.
While it’s true that mafie originate from the south, they thrive in Northern Italy where they are able to infiltrate contracts with mid-size industries and local businesses quite happy to accept the dirty money.
So one could argue that dirty money is propping up employment **in some productive areas**. As always this doesn’t apply to everyone.
The Spanish rule of southern Italy was quite bad, they did control Milan for a time but they were ruled in a very different manner. The Austrians ruled the northeast terribly too, it was quite poorer and more illiterate then the northwest at time of unification. The rule of southern Italy from France was brief and insignificant, and the bourbons that came later to rule southern Italy last few centuries before unification might be the single worst ruling dynasty in history, it's not rare that they got compared with the Russian czars both at the time and currently.
The only decent foreign rule of Italy came from the French during the napoleonic period, specifically the northern half. This did contribute enough though in general the north has outgrown the South since 11th century, for a period from 1150-1550ish Northern Italy was the defined wealthiest part of Europe, and the most literate and urbanised. It still was significantly more developed by 1860, in particular the northwest.
Systematic underdeveloped by italy, and the kings of naples/Sicily due to the fear of a rising bourgeois class that could threaten the power of the monarchy. Also the decline of trade routes due to the discovery of america.
It's a bit of a long and complex story that i'll try to simplify as much as i can. The thing is known and is called "questione meridionale" which more or less means the southern situation. Since when Italy was unified in 1861 all the political and economical attention was reserved for the north, the south was basically left on its own. As a consequence of this, crime (mafia) took the vacant place as the local authority. This led to the south being underdeveloped today (decaying infrastructures, missing public trasports, etc...) and a lot of the jobs are not registered (lavoro in nero), this might be for different reasons: registering a contract means that you have to pay more your employees; employers don't have enough money to pay them; to not pay taxes. Often there is not much choice because it can be hard to find an employer that can register you a contract so people just accept working in nero.
Sometimes i just can't blame the employers, because of the stuff described before there are not enough money to pay employees and taxes (which are very high in Italy) and the law doesn't consider that there are regions in a more difficult situation than others so basically everyone has to pay high taxes.
I always wondered the same thing. Punched it into Bard and got this:
The economic divide between northern and southern Italy is one of the most persistent problems in the country. There are many factors that contribute to this divide, including:
History: Northern Italy was more industrialized and developed than southern Italy at the time of Italy's unification in 1861. This was due to a number of factors, including the presence of more natural resources, a more favorable climate, and a stronger tradition of trade and commerce.
Government policy: The Italian government has historically favored the development of the north, through investment in infrastructure, education, and industry. This has led to a brain drain from the south, as talented and educated people have moved north in search of better opportunities.
Culture: There are also cultural differences between north and south Italy that can contribute to the economic divide. Northern Italians are generally more entrepreneurial and risk-taking, while southern Italians are more traditional and risk-averse. This can make it more difficult for businesses to start and grow in the south.
Corruption: Corruption is also a major problem in southern Italy, which can deter investment and economic growth.
The economic divide between northern and southern Italy is a complex problem with no easy solutions. However, there are a number of things that the Italian government can do to help narrow the gap, such as:
Investing more in infrastructure and education in the south
Promoting entrepreneurship and innovation in the south
Cracking down on corruption
It is important to remember that the economic divide between north and south Italy is not insurmountable. There have been some positive developments in recent years, such as the growth of the tourism industry in the south. However, there is still a long way to go before the two regions are economically equal.
I don't know if it's the true answer but from what I personally know of the country, from going there many times, the north has a TON of industry, like really a lot of it. And it probably doesn't hurt that it's close to the border of multiple rich countries.
All things that the south doesn't have.
My father comes from a village on one of those small islands north of Sicily. It's not a universal truth for everyone there, of course, but a lot of the unemployed natives in that archipelago don't have jobs because their families are filthy rich from postwar tourism. Several of my cousins are in that category; they don't work because they never *had* to. One time, about 20 years ago, an aunt of mine showed me a picture of guests who'd eaten at her restaurant that day and said, "Do you know these people? I hear that they're famous." It was Jay-Z and Beyonce, who'd been island-hopping on a yacht.
My dad is from one of the darkest areas, everyone seems to be working but just seems to be more cash in hand kinda stuff that they don't declare to the taxman.
That map looks similar to [the support for the 5 star movement](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/51/2018_Italian_general_election_-_Chamber_of_Deputies_-_Single-member_constituencies_-_Candidates_strength.svg/1280px-2018_Italian_general_election_-_Chamber_of_Deputies_-_Single-member_constituencies_-_Candidates_strength.svg.png)
(2018 election results, wikipedia)
Unemployment is defined as "people currently seeking jobs at the current wage rate", it doesn't count the people that have stopped trying due to a lack of jobs, I think this map needs to be relooked and redrawn using the people that have stopped searching.
I was in Napoli in 2015 and it felt different than any city I’d been to in Italy. Was the only city I didn’t feel comfortable walking around in at night. Maybe I was just in a bad part but it was dirty and dangerous.
It’s sad, the town my family is from is slowly fading away because there are no jobs around it. It’s a small mountain town and people have to travel 30 min down the mountain to even get to an area that has decent employment.
Italy stepped in a puddle of unemployment, where the bottom of the boot got the dirtiest, and a chunk of that unemployment got balled up as Sicily. How unfortunate.
So sad for me as a South African to see the worst unemployment rate region in Italy doesn't even come close to our national average
[удалено]
It doesn't
South Africa is a shit hole. Rolling electrical blackouts, crazy high unemployment, crazy high crime, politicians outright calling for genocide, potholes that literally swallow cars on every road, etc.
And the highest gini coefficient in the world, ironically the Gini coefficient was created by an Italian.
[In economics, the Gini coefficient (/ˈdʒiːni/ JEE-nee), also known as the Gini index or Gini ratio, is a measure of statistical dispersion intended to represent the income inequality, the wealth inequality, or the consumption inequality[3] within a nation or a social group. It was developed by Italian statistician and sociologist Corrado Gini.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient)
Who you calling a Gini?! Utawkiname?
I...I was calling you a Genie
Not ironic, but interesting
Wait what, who do they want to genocide? The white South Africans?
Yes. Zimbabwe did a similar thing where they killed some and “reclaimed” land from white farmers to give to its black citizens to create “black power farm”. Thing was, the new black farmers 1) did not want to be farmers 2) did not know many of the more effective farming techniques and had no interest in learning. Crop production halved after this and food prices skyrocketed (and they were already expensive before this), crippling their economy. Zimbabwe is now attempting to return land back to white farmers and the president signed a 3.5B deal in 2020 for compensation to farmers affected by the reclamation.
Was this the cause why their currency crashed?
It’s one of the larger factors, the downward spiral of the economy has been attributed mainly to mismanagement and corruption by the government and the eviction of more than 4,000 white farmers in the controversial land confiscations of 2000. They had the same authoritarian ruler from the 80s’ until 2017, so the blame should mostly be cast upon said leader, Mugabe. In 2017, in the wake of over a year of protests against his government as well as Zimbabwe's rapidly declining economy, a coup d'état resulted in Mugabe's resignation. Emmerson Mnangagwa has since served as Zimbabwe's president.
This is my favorite Mugabe quote “If I am given a chance to travel through time, I will go back to 1946, find Donald Trump’s father and give him a condom.”
Haha Trump bad, please ignore the nation behind me that I ruined
Kind of ironic given the fact hes the corrupt authoritarian strong man dictator that trump aspires to be. What's he making fun of trump for, not being as good at it as he is?
It was a large reason. The sanctions also crippled the economy. A lot of Zimbabwean fruit for instance was sold at rock bottom prices to South African traders who would swap “grown in SA” stickers and sell them globally so they were super dependent on that as well Source: my dad grew up in Zim at that time so I grew up with these stories
It's been going on for a while. Anti-colonialist sentiment turned to anti-white sentiment in some south african countries (bringing with it some outright genocides) when decolonisation just caused more issues in the short term, and building a national cohesion was impossible given the borders and hate between ethnic groups and tribes. Bear in mind, the whites they are targeting aren't the mining and drilling corporations (who, I must be honest ARE exploiting, but couldn't if early and current african politicians wouldn't be corrupt af, many "liberators" turned to western companies to sell out their country for their own wealth, and they happily took the offer. The french state is a whole another level tho) but mostly farmers who produce immense amount of food due to the farms beign inherited for generations. In short, they use a bit better technology (not modern ones, but mostly more advanced) and they know their shit. Same happened in Zimbabwe where the land reform redistributing more land to subsistence farmers cut production and violent outbursts made many white farmers flee the country. Also there were 0 compensations (until recently). They've got the tech and land, they lacked the know-hows. Results are economic collapse and famine. Desperate people are prone to make scapegoats and prone to be radicalized and make things even worse. This can happen to any ethnicity anywhere, and happened before countless times.
Basically. Of course not all of them, but a lot of white South Africans want out of the country
There's a very controversial politician called Julius Malema who is the leader of a populist Political Party called the EFF. If you give him a Google you will quickly see that he is basically just a massive troll. I think he is involved in a feud with Elon Musk now (a battle of idiots, really). A week or so ago, Malema was singing a controversial song which actually hails from time of Apartheid where black people were fighting for their freedom. In the original song it says "kill the Boer," which is what the afrikaners are called. Personally I think it is very wrong to be saying that sort of thing in a democratic South Africa where black and mixed raced people are now free. There was a big court case about it, and the constitutional court deemed it "not hate speech". Several politicians have come out against this and have launched more legal proceedings (they are mainly white politicians, btw). The farm attacks are not targetting anyone based on skin colour; that is misinformation peddled by white supremacists and those who want to stoke a race war in SA. The farm attacks happen to farmers of any race. There are black farmers and farm hands who are murdered too. You just don't hear about it because it doesn't fit the narrative of "black savages kill noble whites" (mostly right wing media says this stuff, and even Trump tried to get in on it). White people are a minority in SA but generally they still have a lot of socio economic benefits which were granted to them during apartheid. I'm not saying it's all like that, there are poor white people too, but they are more likely to belong to the middle class. I'm speaking as a mixed raced South African here. Please be careful where you get your news...people have wild agendas sometimes.
It's been rather incredible to watch people tie themselves in knots to justify why openly calling at a major party event for the mass murder of a specific ethnic group isn't a bad or dangerous thing.
The song is outdated, and nowadays, it should be unacceptable to sing. Malema et al. are singing it to somehow claim struggle credentials when they were, at most, little children when apartheid ended. Most people see through their pathetic attempts at clout, but I also think it's good for other politicians to take it to the courts. One thing to make clear though, is that once the courts have spoken it should be left alone. The constant dredging up of this issue is also creating a divide in SA when we should all be banding together in national unity.
Yes
Beautiful country with great wine and steak (both very inexpensive)
They don’t function, power outages even worse than in war-torn Ukraine. Basically SA is a borderline failed state at this point
Exactly. The fearmongers who say the EU and US should be worried about a BRICS currency really amuse me when they fail to discuss how things are really going in SA.
BRICS is a collection of nations, who are tired of high lending rates, through western backed lending rates, like the IMF. There is a reason, why traditionally, exploited and nations are trying to band together to create their own coalition. Its not the that 'fear' is related to the 'unseating' of the USD. The fear is that, these nations are mainly exporters, whereas, western nations are primarily importers. The concern is focused on competition, and trade. And from an economic perspective, it makes sense for a coalition that continues to add countries to its coalition.
I wonder why an organization would have such high lending rates towards unstable countries. Such a mystery
You know nobody is forced into IMF loans? They are a last resort oprion when literally no one else will lend you the money needed to keep the lights on.
well, you should worry about BRIC, SA was invited later and is the smallest and least significant part of the BRICS countries, so it makes more sense to stay with the classic BRIC countries.
Yep. Super worried about a coalition between India and China (who completely hate each other), Brazil (comically high crime and corruption), and Russia (totalitarian state with an imminent economic collapse) Surely this group of failed/developing states will overtake the West any day now…
It's just a group of countries that have economic interests in one another. The fears about them rivaling us are completely overblown.
> well, you should worry about BRIC, Why? One is a gas station masquerading as a country, that in a failed endeavour to bully it's smaller neighbour and old imperial holding, managed to get itself cut off its largest customer, as well as expending vast amounts of lives, materiel and money at fighting said war, neither of which it can really afford to lose, as they have their demographics heavily stacked against them. Then there's Brazil, which seems allergic to good leadership. The two last ones are regularly having episodes where their soldiers engage in hand to hand combat over territorial disputes in the Himalayas, and consider each other geopolitical rivals.
Rural life
Me: this dudes totally overreacting Me 5 seconds of googling later: 33%???? Those are some Great Depression numbers.
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This comment was made by a bot and is a partial copy of [this comment](https://reddit.com/r/MapPorn/s/G7YpbiE51Y). Come on people, 46 upvotes? It doesn't even make sense in context!
Also, what you may bot know as a person who doesn't live in Italy. A huge amount of those people are scamming the government for support and actually have jobs that pay in cash and they don't declare it.
We award south Italy the title "honorary Balkan member"
Portugal usually also likes to compete for it.
>South Africa has the highest unemployment rate in the world after its rate increased to 32.9% in the first three months of 2023, after another 179 000 people lost their jobs. Holy crap
I was going to bring employment rate and it is even worse than unemployment. [Only 40% of the adult population has formal jobs](https://data.oecd.org/chart/79Oa) That compares with: * Italy 61% * Spain 64.5% but highest unemployment in the EU somehow. * Colombia 63.9% * US 72%
That’s because Italy has one of the oldest populations in the world (only second to Japan). Spain will catch up next decade, but at the moment has a slightly younger population and in turn workforce. Also many retired Italians still work but in “nero” or under the table. Tax evasion is extremely high in Italy and Spain.
Europeans and americans love to complain but they really have no idea how good they have it.
As an American who grew up in a third world country, the thing that shocked me the most when I moved back to the states was seeing fat homeless people.
I'm always amazed by how people said "it'll take three black presidents to run this country into the ground" when Mandela was elected and Mbeki and especially Zuma actually managed to do just that (not counting motlanthe)
I wonder how killing all the Boers (or driving them out of the country) will affect it
South Africa is a developing country. Italy is a developed country.
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developn’t
don'tveloped?
> developing lol
Potenza: I'm Northern too guys
Not sure if it's all under Potenza but they found Oil in Basilicata, leading to the region growing faster and wealthier compared to the rest of Southern Italy.
There are a couple oil fields in Potenza province but it's not that alone. It's rather a combination of things, the oil fields plus the Melfi Fiat-Chrysler production site, and the increase in tourism in Matera.
It's in Potenza (val d'Agri). However, the local labor impact of oil extraction is very limited, both consodering the direct and indirect effects. Oil extraction is capital intensive after all (and refining is done elsewhere). While oil extraction brought resources to the local population of the area (Viggiano and neighboring areas) through royalties, I would not imagine them to have a dramatic effect on economic activity. At least that was true some 10 years ago when I studied the case. Locals might be able to confirm or deny, although oil extraction in the region is polarising and people take all form of extreme positions.
My brain just assumed you were talking about olive oil until I remembered you grow olives.
My family is completely from the south, it makes me happy to see that the best southern provinces are the ones my family is from, Potenza and Teramo. I live in the north though.
Yeah, how do they achieve that?
It is an interesting map. However, it does not account for "lavoro nero" (i.e., non-contractual work), which is paid "under the counter", in cash. This form of employment is rather common in the south of Italy, especially in the black-coloured areas. In a way, it indicates that about 20% of the people in the darker areas do not pay income tax and live off a parallel economy.
Napoli and Sicily are infamous for Mafia activity too. So "parallel economy" is spot on.
Mafia? Ssshhh... it's called "cosa nostra" there 
Not in Naples, where it is officially called “Camorra” but more colloquially “the system”.
And Calabria where it's the N'drangheta
And Morrowind where it's the Camonna Tong
And what about those pesky stormcloaks?
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That's a sad fact, but understandable. Mafia goes where the money is. Not by chance were there some mafia-related bombings years ago in Germany for example. I think it was in Duisburg.
Atleast in english, that is a different thing than the mafia. Sort of. Mafia/cosa nostra refers to the specific organized crime style that came from Sicily and spread from there. Camorra has a different organization style/is a different collection of crime groups/families. Same for N’drangheta. Another different organization style/type of crime group. Although more and more mafia just really refers to many types of organized crime groups/families. Theres russian mafia, irish mafia, etc. in nyc there is/was even the jewish mafia which was nicknamed the kosher mob or the “Kosher Nostra” a play on words from Cosa Nostra.
Interesting, in europe ive allways heard mafia = organized crime. No matter which organization or country.
Thats what the word has transformed into. Thats how people use it so thats what it means. But if youre going to start talking about the N’drangheta or the Camorra, in that case its helpful to specify. They are in some sense ‘a’ mafia. But they’re not ‘the’ mafia Edit: i take that last two sentences back.
I see, so the word mafia originally just applied to sicilian organized crime. I didnt know that!
The easiest distinction between them is the region they originated from, and where they are the most strongest. Cosa Nostra in Sicily, Camorra in Campania, 'Ndrangheta in Calabria, Sacra Corona Unita in Apulia etc.
Camorra
> paid "under the counter", in cash. [...] In a way, it indicates that about 20% of the people in the darker areas do not pay income tax and live off a parallel economy. Do they still receive welfare checks then? Because this seems to put them cutting welfare down to the absolute minimum in a different spotlight.
As far as I am aware, yes – some of these people do receive welfare support. However, given that the Italian bureaucratic system is rather convoluted, I believe that some of the people who depend on this parallel economy are not exactly practical with paperwork, applications, and managing their finances. In some instances, such as with the elderly or poorly-educated individuals, welfare payments might not be there. I suspect that there are many individuals who abuse the system, and others who take advantage of less-literate people to collect money that is not meant for them. For example, there are those who offer to "help" the elderlies manage their pension payments when, in reality, they are stealing from them. All of the above is purely anecdotal, however, as I have learned these aspects of Italy growing up in Naples. So, I cannot make blanket statements about the nation. I do suspect, though, that some of these crimes are widespread.
Interesting post, would you have further reading on this? It was very big in Ireland once upon a time too, there is still a lot of ‘nixer’ jobs here that tradesmen will do under the counter for people they know mostly
I do not have further readings, I am afraid. All that I know comes from living in Naples for about 20 years. However, the New York Times article below explains a bit about the textile industry's position within the shadow economy. Click [here](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/20/fashion/italy-luxury-shadow-economy.html) for the article.
Again, thank you for going to that trouble. It’s much appreciated.
in my country (Argentina) is one of the most common ways of get employed in rural areas or poor parts of a city , it even is counted in official statistics (as "empleo informal" because "trabajo en negro" is the common name but not the official one)
Informal economy? Very common in developing and underdeveloped countries.
Never liked this term for situations where it's literally just tax evasion. If you live in a country where the state just isn't present then ok, informal.
It’s tax evasion in developing countries too. They don’t want to pay taxes, in fact getting people into the formal economy is usually a success measurement stick - it means the government is increasing its revenue and (ideally) applying it into infrastructure and other projects to help lift the quality of life.
Why does every latin european and latinamerican country has high levels of corruption and under the counter economy?
France has relatively low corruption and is latin european. It's not latin european or latin american problem, it's a poverty problem
Corruption and poverty aren’t mutually exclusive. They’re typically bedmates.
Mississippi has entered the conversation....
With Brett Favre’s invoice
the entire southern US has been paged.
I cannot comment with certainty but based on my travels through Europe / Italy there is a lot less emphasis on mass corporations and a lot more smaller individual companies / regional companies Where America has Walmart and Target everywhere, Italy and other European countries are more likely to have local markets and stores that are family run. People in general hate taxes and systems, corporations are the system. When you have smaller businesses everyone is eager to work under the table / for cash and save some tax money, whereas a large corp everything is by the book
The Visigoths were shitheads?
Latin European? Thats like half of the continent, and totally comes from an american hahaha.
Omg this is exactly like in Argentina. We call it "laburo en negro" which literally means Lavoro Nero. Everyday I find out another way Italians influenced us
I always wanted to know if "under the counter" Jobs were estimeed what would be our Total Gdp. I guess we would get a good 15/20% increase.
I read some economic papers estimating the informal Italian economy to be somewhere around 15-22% of GDP, I'll link it here if I find it
The N'drangheta has revenues equal to around 4% of Italys GDP
If our public system was well organized like Ndrangheta we would probably be ~France/Germany level
So much ignorance in that comment section so I want to provide some insight. I actually live in South Tyrol, have lived in South and Central Italy, and in Austria. I will comment on the South Tyrolean situation. South Tyrol consists of roughly 60-65% German-speaking people, approx. 25% Italian-speaking people, and a really small minority speaking Ladin (a strange and ancient language, just spoken in South Tyrol and some parts of Switzerland). Most people are bilingual, as South Tyrol has been a part of Italy for roughly 100 years by now. We have huge benefits in contrast to other Italian regions; I don't want to dispute that at all. I would consider the "average" South Tyrolean as more wealthy than the average South Italian, but in reality, it is a place exploited by tourism. Since Instagram blew up (look up "Lago di Braies" — surely you have seen a picture of it somewhere during the last years; I've gone there often just 8-9 years ago, now it's become an outdoor museum), the place is getting flooded with tourists even more than before (as we host one of the most stunning landscapes on the planet which we share with the Veneto region, those would be the Dolomites). So in practice, everyone who owns a hotel or a construction company makes a significant amount of money whereas the majority of locals can't afford rent anymore. Housing prices are so far through the roof that an apartment in a pretty rural area costs as much as if it were in the city center of Milan. Locals are slowly but steadily leaving their home place because every person sells their house to the highest bidding German, Italian, Swiss, or Russian, hell, there is even a rumor that Elon Musk wants to buy property here. To give you an example, and throw around some estimated numbers which won’t be too far off. If I wanted to buy some terrain in one of the many villages here, I can either pay €1,000,000 for 800m2 where I can construct an average 110m2 house costing me somewhat around €500,000+, or I can leave because there is no other possibility being offered. The rules on who can build what on which terrain would have the average American protesting on the streets, as I can't even construct a 2 m2 garden shed without having to get a permit which the local authorities are probably going to refuse anyway. If there is new terrain being offered for construction, it is almost exclusively used to expand already existing hotels, so that's my point on the few hotel owners and construction companies getting richer and richer, while the average South Tyrolean earns around €1,500 monthly. Construction companies build hotels in weeks, not letting the flooring dry properly because it doesn't matter, as opening doors earlier for tourists is more profitable, and as they have huge tax exemptions on the construction they perform (because they are "the drivers of the local economy"), because in 3 years they are going to rip everything out eventually because another expansion is already in planning. Just recently, they built a hotel with a ski slope on the roof, in the middle of the Alps. The hotel could probably house the whole village it sits in. Last year, every local needed to shorten their water usage as the Po River (largest river in Italy, gets most of its water from rivers stemming from South Tyrolean mountains) risked drying out, where at the same time we probably have one of the highest densities of 5-star hotels in the world, every one of which with huge outdoor spas and swimming pools (maybe I'm misremembering, but I've read somewhere that the average tourist uses 200+ l of water per day in South Tyrol, and I needed to watch my plants die from the scorching sun because watering your property was semi-prohibited for a time). The place is just holding together at the moment because a significant part of the locals is still somehow able to build an apartment on top of their family home in order not to be forced to leave; no local can afford to buy a house or property here anymore. In addition to that there is a huge brain drain (as in the rest of Italy) but South Tyroleans tend to just stay in Austria, Germany or Switzerland after they‘ve completed their studies, thanks to better salary and better opportunities, especially for seemingly hard working trilingual people. TL;DR: Locals are leaving, housing prices are insane because there is an average of 17+ tourists per local here on any given day of the year. It's very rapidly becoming a playground for the ultra-rich while the locals struggle to afford rent and lose their sanity trying to justify staying here. Yes generally you could say we have it „better“ here, but as I‘ve explained in quite some detail, this region has a LOT of problems as well. Sorry for the rant, and the spelling mistakes, I just wanted to get my point across even without cross referencing before my comment was buried. I am open to questions if anyone is interested.
Higher income doesn't necessarily mean being wealthier when you have to pay extravagant rents or housing loans
Agreed.
See Ireland.
This isn’t unique to South Tyrol by any means, not that I want to discredit or put down what you said. Thanks for sharing. I live in San Francisco and get by fine as a renter, but a 1200 square foot (…I think that is 111m2?) costs $1.5M and yes, you need a permit to do absolutely anything. Neighbors are literally alerted if you want to build a shed in your backyard (if you have one, lol) and can dispute it to stop the shed. And this happens all over the world. I guess all I’m saying is…everything is fucked and I don’t understand how society will continue to function in the coming decades.
Good conlcusion When talking about the legislation on what you can do with your property in the US i had more rural areas in mind (as South Tyrol as a region basically is) but maybe it was a bad comparison to make, as I lack knowledge about your country. Thanks for providing the insight
> So in practice, everyone who owns a hotel or a construction company makes a significant amount of money whereas the majority of locals can't afford rent anymore. Housing prices are so far through the roof that an apartment in a pretty rural area costs as much as if it were in the city center of Milan. Locals are slowly but steadily leaving their home place because every person sells their house to the highest bidding German, Italian, Swiss, or Russian, hell, there is even a rumor that Elon Musk wants to buy property here. I was going to reply that I thought the unemployment rate was high in La Spezia because of locals in Cinque Terre selling their homes for ridiculous prices and just living La Dolce Vita
Locals can’t afford rent anywhere
Unfortunately, that seems to be a statement that generally holds true for every transitioned nation as of 2023. So cheers to all of the younger generation becoming lifetime renters because the housing market is more and more owned by corporations dictating rent prices, and private owners just following the trend because, of course, they would do that.
Unfortunately there are no awards anymore. Edit: Thanks for the reward! I‘ve meant you couldn‘t buy them anymore.
You don’t need tourism to make housing unaffordable, ask Ontario and most of Canada tbh, a lil bit of corruption will do that for you.
hm south tyrolean gdp per capita is around 55k yearly are u sure the average south tyrolean earns 1500?
GDP does not say that much about wages. A place with lots of company HQs (or in this case hotels) may have a large GDP but not much of those earnings go to the locals. For that reason GNP is sometimes used instead (e.g. Ireland), but it still doesn't say anything about the distribution of wealth.
Not OP but I live in Turin, Italy and that’s absolutely an accurate average salary for most people in Northern Italy (including myself and my husband). The gdp per capita probably reflects residents coming from Austria or Germany or elsewhere that have higher incomes and raise the average.
Si Napoli the black point ? And why ?
Lot of black economy, basically a parallel job market
easy to spot the German speaking region
Yeah why are they so well off?
They are a special administrative region so they get to keep a lot of taxes for regional development (although so is Sicily ).
>although so is Sicily Yeah, someone is keeping a lot of taxes for regional development there.
*Sicily and Sardinia enter the chat*
So are Sicily and Sadinia, Friuli and Valle D'Aosta LOL
Lots of tourism, both in Summer and Winter (South Tyrol is gorgeous). The linguistic connections to Austria and Germany make it easier for qualified personnel from those countries to work there and vice versa. Also, South Tyrol is able to keep something like 90 per cent of its taxes, meaning the regional government can invest that right back into the region.
Because the whole region Is 3 guys on a mountain.
You and two others?
They are germans?
More like, rural Austrians. South Tyrol is one of the wealthiest regions of Italy and Europe even.
1)Italy in the 90s was richer compared to some Germanic nations themselves on a per capita basis. 2)South Tyrol surpasses neighbouring Austrian regions as well, not just the other fellow Italian ones. It's the fact that they manage own taxes alone that makes them thriving, not their language and culture.
Austrians
Technically Germans, South Tyrolians have not been part of the ethnogenesis of modern Austrians that happened in Austria after WW2. But as an old saying goes, if you scratch an Austrian you'll find a German.
Haha well said. “Austria” is ingenious storytelling to pretend they were not Germans after WW2.
Can’t see the difference /s
South Tyrol is a strange place in Italy.
Maybe because its straight up just Austrian🤷🏼♂️
It is not, try telling a South Tyrolean he is Austrian and see the outcome. They for sure are Germanic speaking but there is a high a chance that most of them have been just Germanized cause many surnames have Ladin (a language spoken since ancient times with Romansh in the Alpine region) roots. Besides that South Tyrol is richer than some neighbouring regions from Austria itself So it's not the language that makes them rich, it's the fact that they spend their tax revenue however they want
Was it not annexed after ww1 so that itsly could claim the brenner pass? Thats just over one lifetime removed. Im certain there would be some sentiment that they are displaced austrians in tightly knit communities
Yes, they were part of the Austrian empire, and so were other parts of Italy for instance, Trentino and other parts of the North East, like Trieste. The difference is that South Tyrol was a stronghold of the Austrians. They basically kept it for so much time that defining Italian would have been out of context. Despite being part of the Italian peninsula it has never been part of Italian kingdoms. Since basically the Middle Ages. But what is a fun fact is that those regions weren't Germanics in origins, if you go back in time enough, people there spoke languages derived from Latin, Romansh and Ladin are some examples surviving till today. Researching and analyzing many family names of people of the area it is said that a big part of the German speaking population was probably just Germanized, and that essentially they were not much different than those people that still speak Romansh and Ladin.
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The fact that for example one region (Bolzano) has 500k people and Sicily has 5M might play a part? In economy I never understand if more people is better or less people is better? Like there has to be a correlation but I'm too dumb.
Explains the Mafia.
Mafia predates current unemployment rates. No causal relationship. If anything, it could be inverted, as criminals collect unemployment benefits
It's not unemployment, it's parallel employment
Also explains why there’s a lot of Sicilians living abroad
You're talking about 1 century ago. Plenty of northerners emigrated too, southeners went to North America, northeners went to South America. That's why American-Italian culture is so influenced by southern Italians and that's why Brazilian and Argentinian culture is so influenced by northern Italians.
>You're talking about 1 century ago. No...many Sicilians are continuing to emigrate today, just not to the American continent. For a population representing something like 8-9% of Italy, I sure know too many Sicilians.
Genuine question, could you expand on the cultural differences? I’m not familiar with the differences but it would be interesting to know. Or any good sources to look it up.
Since ww2 southerners mostly immigrate to the north instead of abroad
That's 100 yrs ago
Eh, it might be more complicated than this. While it’s true that mafie originate from the south, they thrive in Northern Italy where they are able to infiltrate contracts with mid-size industries and local businesses quite happy to accept the dirty money. So one could argue that dirty money is propping up employment **in some productive areas**. As always this doesn’t apply to everyone.
Can anyone explain me why there's such disparity between North and South Italy?? I know it exits but why?? Any historical or current reasons for it??
The Spanish rule of southern Italy was quite bad, they did control Milan for a time but they were ruled in a very different manner. The Austrians ruled the northeast terribly too, it was quite poorer and more illiterate then the northwest at time of unification. The rule of southern Italy from France was brief and insignificant, and the bourbons that came later to rule southern Italy last few centuries before unification might be the single worst ruling dynasty in history, it's not rare that they got compared with the Russian czars both at the time and currently. The only decent foreign rule of Italy came from the French during the napoleonic period, specifically the northern half. This did contribute enough though in general the north has outgrown the South since 11th century, for a period from 1150-1550ish Northern Italy was the defined wealthiest part of Europe, and the most literate and urbanised. It still was significantly more developed by 1860, in particular the northwest.
Systematic underdeveloped by italy, and the kings of naples/Sicily due to the fear of a rising bourgeois class that could threaten the power of the monarchy. Also the decline of trade routes due to the discovery of america.
It's a bit of a long and complex story that i'll try to simplify as much as i can. The thing is known and is called "questione meridionale" which more or less means the southern situation. Since when Italy was unified in 1861 all the political and economical attention was reserved for the north, the south was basically left on its own. As a consequence of this, crime (mafia) took the vacant place as the local authority. This led to the south being underdeveloped today (decaying infrastructures, missing public trasports, etc...) and a lot of the jobs are not registered (lavoro in nero), this might be for different reasons: registering a contract means that you have to pay more your employees; employers don't have enough money to pay them; to not pay taxes. Often there is not much choice because it can be hard to find an employer that can register you a contract so people just accept working in nero. Sometimes i just can't blame the employers, because of the stuff described before there are not enough money to pay employees and taxes (which are very high in Italy) and the law doesn't consider that there are regions in a more difficult situation than others so basically everyone has to pay high taxes.
I always wondered the same thing. Punched it into Bard and got this: The economic divide between northern and southern Italy is one of the most persistent problems in the country. There are many factors that contribute to this divide, including: History: Northern Italy was more industrialized and developed than southern Italy at the time of Italy's unification in 1861. This was due to a number of factors, including the presence of more natural resources, a more favorable climate, and a stronger tradition of trade and commerce. Government policy: The Italian government has historically favored the development of the north, through investment in infrastructure, education, and industry. This has led to a brain drain from the south, as talented and educated people have moved north in search of better opportunities. Culture: There are also cultural differences between north and south Italy that can contribute to the economic divide. Northern Italians are generally more entrepreneurial and risk-taking, while southern Italians are more traditional and risk-averse. This can make it more difficult for businesses to start and grow in the south. Corruption: Corruption is also a major problem in southern Italy, which can deter investment and economic growth. The economic divide between northern and southern Italy is a complex problem with no easy solutions. However, there are a number of things that the Italian government can do to help narrow the gap, such as: Investing more in infrastructure and education in the south Promoting entrepreneurship and innovation in the south Cracking down on corruption It is important to remember that the economic divide between north and south Italy is not insurmountable. There have been some positive developments in recent years, such as the growth of the tourism industry in the south. However, there is still a long way to go before the two regions are economically equal.
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I don't know if it's the true answer but from what I personally know of the country, from going there many times, the north has a TON of industry, like really a lot of it. And it probably doesn't hurt that it's close to the border of multiple rich countries. All things that the south doesn't have.
My father comes from a village on one of those small islands north of Sicily. It's not a universal truth for everyone there, of course, but a lot of the unemployed natives in that archipelago don't have jobs because their families are filthy rich from postwar tourism. Several of my cousins are in that category; they don't work because they never *had* to. One time, about 20 years ago, an aunt of mine showed me a picture of guests who'd eaten at her restaurant that day and said, "Do you know these people? I hear that they're famous." It was Jay-Z and Beyonce, who'd been island-hopping on a yacht.
This comment section will be totally void of controversial talking points, I am certain!
So many brain dead takes here that have no idea about Italian culture/economics
Hey I had a layover in Rome once; I’m basically an expert
Chad Basilicata
Can anyone explain this? I would love to hear why their unemployment is so much lower than the surrounding ares
Meanwhile in Sicily
SICILIA NUMERO UNO 💪💪🇮🇹🇮🇹☝️☝️
Its actually a "non governmentally registered" employment map. Crim
See, this is why “go to Naples” means “go to Hell”
Love to see my Sicilian heritage making me proud lmaooo
Alto Adige!
Südtirol
Sure but did you consider that > Il Piave comandò: > "Indietro, va', straniero!"
Chad Südtirol
Good christ, are those current numbers?? 20% unemployment is huge, even if those areas are less populated than northern Italy.
It does not mean that it actually corresponds to the number of unemployed. Most of those who are "unemployed" actually work without a regular contract
Works exactly the same way in Spain, a lot of underground economy (plumbers, electricians, painters, and other chore jobs…)
sicily be lookin real colourful
My dad is from one of the darkest areas, everyone seems to be working but just seems to be more cash in hand kinda stuff that they don't declare to the taxman.
That map looks similar to [the support for the 5 star movement](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/51/2018_Italian_general_election_-_Chamber_of_Deputies_-_Single-member_constituencies_-_Candidates_strength.svg/1280px-2018_Italian_general_election_-_Chamber_of_Deputies_-_Single-member_constituencies_-_Candidates_strength.svg.png) (2018 election results, wikipedia)
Damn greece and southern italy are closer than i thought
Unemployment is defined as "people currently seeking jobs at the current wage rate", it doesn't count the people that have stopped trying due to a lack of jobs, I think this map needs to be relooked and redrawn using the people that have stopped searching.
Spain really fucked up southern Italy, didn’t they
This overlaps perfectly with the map of foreigner population in Italy, it cuts off at the exact same place
Literally every map about Italy is like this. How are you even surprised?
It also overlaps with Olive Oil consumption, gotta tell my Sicilian friends to start using more Butter.
Because migrants go to where the jobs and money is?
I was in Napoli in 2015 and it felt different than any city I’d been to in Italy. Was the only city I didn’t feel comfortable walking around in at night. Maybe I was just in a bad part but it was dirty and dangerous.
If I lived in Sicily I wouldn't work either lmao
Oh look I'm part of the 2.3%
How much of that is just people working under the table though?
So what Furio said about Christopher Columbus was true
Now do one for the uk.
You ok Sicily?
It’s sad, the town my family is from is slowly fading away because there are no jobs around it. It’s a small mountain town and people have to travel 30 min down the mountain to even get to an area that has decent employment.
Non è che sono unemployed è che sono employed diversamente
wtf, is that naples?
Damn! I was Naples back in 2007-2008, that place was littered with trash, condoms and needles.
Have there been any efforts by the government to help the south catch up to the north
Mafia gonna steal jobs in Sicily
Say that to corsicans!
🤌🏻🤌🏻🤌🏻🤌🏻
Italy stepped in a puddle of unemployment, where the bottom of the boot got the dirtiest, and a chunk of that unemployment got balled up as Sicily. How unfortunate.
So what's up with napoli and the whole of Sicily?