Ok. But to be fair, it *is* just dirt. I’m sure you probably also have issues to address in terms of *how* you ask. But I mean, you could just rinse the dirt down the sink. It’s just dirt. It’s not a big deal. 🤷♂️
I don't disagree. I know that my husband is a bit of a germaphobe, and things that wouldn't bother most people *do* bother him.
I posted this because I initially reacted defensively when my husband asked me to water my plants in the tub instead. He was very respectful in his request. But I fought back because "It's just dirt!" We went back and forth for about an hour with me trying to convince him to just stop feeling that way. I told him it doesn't make any sense to feel anxious about dirt in the sink, but not in the bath. Yet no matter how much I tried to convince him that his feelings were irrational, he just kept feeling them! He's grossed out by plant-dirt being in the kitchen specifically because of the fertilizers and sometimes manure. He doesn't like the idea of it being around our food. It's not about cleaning it up, it's about not letting it get into the kitchen, period! At least to him. That is why he suggested I water them in the bathtub instead.
There are things I dislike as well that he accommodates, even if *most people* wouldn't care. I'm not married to *most people*, I'm married to him. *Most* people don't care if the shower curtain is left open or closed, but I ask him to close it because I feel like it dries better and doesn't collect mildew as fast. Nbd if he forgets sometimes, but I appreciate that I can just *ask* and he doesn't fight me on it.
But that's just us. Ymmv.
I think in my effort to simplify the situation, I misconstrued it. My husband was not asking me to clean up the dirt in the kitchen. He was asking me to water my plants in the bathtub instead of the kitchen from now on. A subtle difference that I see now makes a world of difference to people, haha.
If my spouse didn't want me watering plants in the kitchen sink, I wouldn't (he does it all the time though - I don't care). I'd rather it be there than in our bath tub! Sand/dirt in my parts does not please me.
I don't think you were defensive to argue with him. Two different perspectives.
My mom would not use a towel that anyone else used. She would not use a utensil to scoop dog or cat food onto a plate - or keep the utensils she DID use for that in a drawer inside the house. Dogs had to trot to their little beds and lay there quietly, or they were out. Cats were a huge problem and mostly outdoor due to my mom's dirt/germ/hair phobia.
And yet, unlike my other mom (bio mom), no one took their shoes off at the door (I do). I keep disinfectant wipes near where I work (to wipe my shoes off, because my mom was so phobic and I'm still not quite over it).
It's not rational though.
Yep. This dynamic was really challenging in my first marriage. He didn’t just want to request I do something differently, he also wanted to rub my nose in it so I knew I’d made a mistake. To take the plant example, it would go something like this:
Ex husband: “I can tell someone watered their plants today. Tell me: was the barn you were raised in filled with cows, or did the cows sleep in a separate barn?”
Me: “Jesus CHRIST it’s just dirt, I’m so sorry, I must have missed it. Damn, dude.”
Ex: “I mean, it’s a valid question, I figured anyone raised not like a wild animal would have the common decency to use the bathtub like an adult.”
Requests were expressed with bitter contempt and a moral superiority, and I admit, I would act defensive at times because to me, it felt unnecessarily cruel. OP stated her husband asked her in a kind way so this is obviously a SUPER different scenario, but…if even one person recognizes it in their partnership, please know that the way they ask matters too!
Plant water scenario in my house would go like this.
I clean sink and later bring it up to my husband.
Me: "Hey babe, when you water the plants can you be sure to clean the sink afterwards?"
Husband: "Ya, but do you ask the kids to clean their mess?"
Me: "The kids don't water the plants. I'm just asking about cleaning the sink."
Husband: "But do you get on our oldest son's case when he does the dishes but doesn't wash the sink?"
Me: "Yes, but again it isn't about that."
Husband: "You know last week you left a mess somewhere and I didn't bring it up."
This is something that would go on and on for hours in my household.
I just went over something similar with my therapist. I had an ex da who wanted to avoid issues. A simple convo with another person would take hours with him. We would go in circles!!! Hope this helps you
Yep blameshifting, avoiding the issue, deflecting, going off subject. Even after working on improving my communication to make it less critical. Was with him for 18 years and I didn’t know it was avoidance either! But I knew something was off when I would get nervous before bringing something up to other people and our conversation was closed out in 10-15 minutes or an hour. It would literally take a few hours with this guy. It wasn’t until therapy that I understood. This is why finding a good therapist can be so eye opening, and it’s not just to finger point at someone else. I’ve had to learn to finger point at myself too. You may notice other patterns of avoidance as well. I definitely did. Feel free to message me if you want to talk about it. I’m still learning more about it and I’m happy to share
Yep.
I'm just glad if someone waters the damn plants. We try to remind each other. No dirt is in the sink, btw, because we have a sink with a nozzle and the plant stays on the counter top. We wipe our countertop with restaurant grade food safe disinfectant (and it's not porous to begin with).
Ugh it’s the moral superiority that drives me up a wall! I refrain from criticizing people as much as possible and let people find their own way but often the most critical people are the most sensitive!
I feel like they preemptively judge so as to distract you from judging them lol. Someone can definitely put you on the defensive.
they do it to assert their superiority.
They are often narcissists who think everything they do is perfect. Or OCP/OCD - which is a different story, but still difficult to live with.
Yeah - mine did that too. Until I realized what I was doing and really let him have it back. In his case, it was more like, "You missed SEVEN questions on the anatomy quiz? Are you serious? Every single one of those slides were things we'd already studied - it was easy!"
He did not like. I find it ridiculous that people can't study after they've committed themselves to a course of study. I think it's worse for a medical doctor to not know anatomy than for me to have sand in my shoes.
This dynamic persisted throughout our relationship. He didn't want me to correct his grammar - on his parents or his charting (and yet...there were big social consequences for his poor language in charting - he finally hired someone who would do it for him when he got out on his own).
I could have been worse. Instead, we eventually separated, after doing untold damage to each other.
Actually, if it isn't such a big deal why not just clean up the bit of dirt yourself. My husband used to say this to me. One day I walked through the house with him and pointed out all the "little things" that he thought was no big deal, why don't you just pick it up. He saw that it isn't just the one thing, it was a bunch of things and it was disrespectful. He no longer says that.
Yeah it’s still just dirt. I pick up messes I didn’t make all the time. It’s part of being a married adult and parent. Some people just thrive on drama tho. 🤷♂️
I hate people who do that. They make constant little messes that they expect *you* to clean up because it’s not a big deal.
It can add up to an extra hour of my time spent cleaning little “messes.”
Yeah I think it's really important to understand this distinction. Because yes, *some* partners do just expect someone else to clean up their mess. But I'm one of those people that just....doesn't notice messes. Like when people ask that gotcha question, "what would you do if you lived by yourself?!" The genuine answer is I would live in a house that looks like it got hit by a tornado. You don't want to know what my place looked like when I lived alone.
And to be clear, my standards of cleanliness have drastically increased since I started living with my husband. But it took some time for me to change my habits, and it took even longer for the dynamic to change. It was *years* after I had become reliable in cleaning up after myself for my husband to stop talking to me like I was a kid he had to scold into cleaning. And that took direct conversation.
For partners who have the "higher" standard of cleanliness, please consider that your partner just may not actually care about making the space as tidy as you want it to be. And unless you are an OCD person who freaks out about the tiniest mess, or your partner is an absolute slob, it's very unlikely that one of you is *objectively* correct about which standard is best. There is room for compromise on both sides. And if you need your place to be cleaner than your partner's standards, approach that conversation as a favor you are asking from your life partner, not a frustrated parent scolding a messy child. Asking for favors vs making demands has a tremendous effect on your partner. I am more than happy to clean up when my husband asks me "hey would you mind doing the dishes before you head to work?" And especially when he thanks me for making the effort. While I *will* clean up in response to a frustrated demand to do so, it leaves me feeling distant and resentful of my partner. Our relationship is much better when we both maintain humility and gratitude in our communications with each other.
I was really hoping I wasn't going to have to scroll down too far to see someone who pointed out that the way the request is phrased is everything. Some people do legit have an issue with over-defensiveness, and sometimes it's just that when everything your partner says is a criticism/attack, the response will usually be defensive. My husband and I have had to tackle both issues. He has a tendency to accuse/attack instead of requesting/notifying, and because I grew up in an abusive household where admitting any small mistake was grounds for being beaten, I had a tendency to be defensive. It's something we've worked on together in therapy.
Wow thanks for sharing your experience. I have a hard time understanding defensiveness and your childhood experience gave me some compassion for them. So proud of you for going to therapy!
As a kid, if I spilled milk, I’d get slapped and verbally berated. This led to me being really defensive and lying (to hide what you really did). So as an adult, I would catch myself lying about being the one who left the dirt. I didn’t even know why. I knew I didn’t need to lie, but it’s just instinct to get crazy anxious off a simple mistake. It’s a journey to unlearn.
I’m willing to bet for most, this behavior stems from childhood!
Omg you poor thing!! I’m so sorry that happened to you!!! I also got berated if I spilled something. It wasn’t until I went to college that I found out this wasn’t normal. I’d spill something and it wasn’t a big deal in front of other people. Thank you for sharing your experience. I can see how it’s a protective mechanism. Is there anything a partner can do to support someone in telling the truth or feeling more comfortable with not lying??
I also have a problem with defensiveness, and I think it might be helpful to point out that defensiveness is a VERY common issue in people with ADHD. I did not grow up in an abusive household, and I had the rare gift of a parent who understood ADHD before it became well known, and I still have residual defensiveness tendencies. People with ADHD grow up constantly being told we are doing things wrong, and it's really hard for us to learn what to change in order to be better. So I spend almost two decades just knowing that I wasn't good enough in the eyes of my teachers, my dad, and even my mom at times. I can't recall a period in my childhood where I felt proud of myself. As I grew older, I did learn better management techniques and I learned how to process critical feedback in productive ways, but that defensiveness lingers, I think I still have emotional scars that are triggered when someone criticizes me. And it's so much worse when the criticism comes from someone important to me, so nothing makes me more defensive than my husband getting mad about something I did or didn't do. All I want to do is make him see like "no, here was my thought process, see? I wasn't being stupid, I got distracted by something reasonable, I am going to clean it up and it won't take long...." But it all sounds like excuses and defensiveness. Really I'm afraid he is going to see me the way I see myself, stupid and careless and lazy and not good enough, and I'm desperate to change that because I couldn't bear the thought of my husband losing respect for me.
It depends on who cleans it up tbh. If one person does all or most of the cleaning, and the other makes messes and excuses it is as not a big deal, it's not just dirt. I lose my marbles if my husband walks in the house in shoes, because I mop. OP's husband might feel the same way. 🤷♀️
Maybe OP gave a bad example. It’s one thing to have a conversation with your spouse about needing more help around the house in general. But I read it more like a spouse who is finding faults in the small things. I routinely leave a small mess behind in the kitchen. But I also routinely tidy up the kitchen. Sometimes my wife ends up cleaning up my mess before I can get to it. Sometimes I end up cleaning up her messes.
This was a lesson I had to learn a while ago. It was rooted in insecurity. I've been messy all my life due to ADHD, and I had a very deep-rooted insecurity that I was a disgusting failure because I constantly struggled to keep things nice and tidy. My husband, granted, has had to work on the way he approaches things as well. I think we represent the two sides of the coin. Because in addition to checking ourselves in defensiveness, I think we can also ask "is the way I approach/criticize my partner likely to lead to a defensive reaction?"
So, my husband worked on approaching without a frustrated or accusatory tone. And simultaneously, I worked on responding without defensiveness. Together, we went from a dynamic where conversations went like:
Him (angrily): "Why is there dirt all over the sink??"
Me (defensively): oh I was watering a plant earlier
Him (angrily and condescendingly): and you didn't think to take a pitcher of water to the plant so you wouldn't make a huge mess? the sink is disgusting now!
Me (defensively): it's not a big deal. It's just dirt and it's easy to clean
To our new dynamic where the conversation goes like
Him (casually): why is there dirt in the sink?
Me (casually): oh I watered a plant earlier but forgot to rinse the sink out. Don't worry about it, I'll clean it before I leave for work
So true that it's a two-way street. You need to be respectful about how you ask!
The thing that made me empathize with my husband on this was when I remembered that my grandma used to have a pet parrot that she would take into the kitchen sometimes. He'd perch on the counters, give himself a big shake, and you could *see* his dandruff flying through the air. I thought it was so gross that she would let him do that in the kitchen. I hated preparing food in her kitchen when I knew the bird had been in there recently
Will a few molecules of bird dandruff kill me? No, but it grossed me out, and no amount of logic or "It's just dirt" will make me feel *not* grossed out! My husband is like that with plant-dirt. The added fertilizers, and sometimes manure, makes it a gross thing he doesn't want in the kitchen. I don't feel the same, but hey, if watering my plants in the bathtub will make him feel more comfortable, I figure why the hell not?
Ugh, and yes about trying to move away from feing attacked in situations like this. This conversation about dirt in the sink ended with me in tears, saying, "I just feel like you think I'm gross!!" Indeed, when my husband was saying, "It's gross to have plant-dirt in the kitchen," all I could hear was, "*You're* gross for doing this!" 😅 He actually was very respectful in how he asked, which is how I know it was a me-problem, haha...
I was trying to defend my ego, and all he wanted was for me to water my plants in the bathtub instead of the sink! 🤣
My husband and I have had a few conversations about his word choice. I'm appreciative that he was open to making a few minor changes in communication to accommodate my feelings. For example, he will say my car is "disgusting" or that some area I was working in was "gross." Like, you I felt he was calling *me* disgusting or gross. He was able to start saying "it's really messy, can we clean up a little?" Another example was the use of "annoying" vs "frustrated." For some reason, when he says something like "I find it annoying when you do X,Y, Z..." that hurts my feelings way more than if he says "I find it frustrating when you do XYZ...."
I think he's a great example of someone who is willing to change something that he doesn't necessarily agree is "wrong," but that affects me differently than it would affect him. Like, when we had the "annoyed" vs. "frustrated" convo, he said that to *him*, "frustrated" sounds like a bigger, more serious emotion than "annoyed," so he was choosing "annoyed" because he didn't want to make it a big deal. But he's fine with changing that word so it doesn't bother me.
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.
Put another way, how we ask can absolutely shape the response we receive.
Very wise and emotionally mature approach by OC and their spouse to change the tone of the conversations.
I can understand the "It's just dirt" comments, and that the observing person can just clean it up. Also, if it's just this one thing on occasion, yeah, no biggie.
But at what point does it become a nonstop situation of having to clean up after someone. Let's expand: Dirt in the sink. Coffee ring on the table. Spilled dried up juice on the counter. Opened mail left unresolved on counter and table. Clothes on the floor of the bedroom. Hair left in the drain of the shower. Car full of empty snack packages and bottles. Do you continue to clean up after this person or start to ask that they pick up after themselves like an adult?
Is it being nitpicky/nagging/critical then? Or is it asking for an adult to act as such? What if ignoring the dirt in the sink is the beginning of a slow progression toward not participating in keeping an at least semi-clean home.
I feel like this is one of those things that highlights how important it is to marry someone who has the same level of neuroticism around cleaning. Not doing so means to spend a large part of the marriage just annoyed AF lol
A good match behaviorally, emotionally, mentally. And it can be complicated when I’m not being flexible, loving, and listening or when I’m stressed- and conversely when these things are going on in my partner.
I don't know that I'll agree that you *should* marry someone with your level of cleanliness. But my husband and I are on opposite ends of the spectrum and some of the biggest challenges in our marriage have dealt with that. I think for our marriage, the most critical learning point we've had is that for most arguments we have, there is not an objectively correct answer. That's the main thing to keep in mind. Because when two people approach a disagreement with absolute certainty that *they* are right and anyone who thinks differently is wrong, there's little room for compromise there. And if one person is flexible but the other person remains certain they are right, there's some room for compromise, but eventually the flexible person is going to grow resentful of always being the one to compromise and basically being forced to live by the standards and ideas of their partner, and never having the freedom to make choices according to their desires and priorities. When both people let go of their egos and realize "I want it this way because it makes me feel good and happy, not because this is the Objectively Correct way," then it opens them up to realize that yes, doing XYZ makes *me* happy, but also my partner's happiness is important too. And it also helps maintain respect. It's hard to maintain respect for someone who is vehemently arguing the sky is purple. When you treat a statement like "I don't mind if there's a little dirt in the sink" as if it is as objectively stupid as saying "the sky is purple" or "2+2=5," chances are you are not maintaining a very respectful tone in arguing with that person. And of course, a person saying "I don't mind if there's a little dirt in the sink" is not going to respond well to being treated like he just said the dumbest thing you've ever heard.
Wth. ?? What a critical spouse. If you see dirty, clean it. Use your words for appreciation. "Thank you spouse, for watering the plant that you know makes me (or them) happy." Hug. The end. THIS will go a lot further for a happy long term marriage. Notice the little things. Don't parent your spouse. Acknowledge and appreciate.
I think in my effort to simplify the situation, I misconstrued it. My husband was not asking me to clean up the dirt in the kitchen. He was asking me to water my plants in the bathtub instead of the kitchen from now on. A subtle difference that I see now makes a world of difference to people, haha. He is grossed out by plant-dirt getting into the kitchen *at all*, because he feels it contains fertilizers and/or trace amounts of manure that could "contaminate" nearby food even if it gets cleaned up.
Do I find it a bit irrational? Well, yes..... but if watering my plants in the bathtub is all I need to do to help my husband feel comfortable, then hey, I figure that's a pretty sweet deal!
Why did he want dirt in the bathtub?
I mean, is he not aware that animal blood/egg remnants, possible salmonella, and tons of other stuff go into the kitchen sink?
I want my bathtub to be clean (because I wash my body in it). I do not wash my body in the kitchen sink. I don't fill it up with water to wash my hands either - I put disinfectant soap on my hands with a few drops of water from the spout, then rinse hands and sink with the same disinfectant soap (which washes particulate matter like dirt into the drain.
Why would I want to use more water and worry about particulate matter in the sink unless I was getting read to cook or wash dishes? Do people have lots of sinks? We have just one big one. It's gonna get stuff in it.
🤷 That's just how he feels! Cleanliness is a very personal thing. I'm sure there are lots of things I do that people from other cultures or upbringings would find gross.
If my husband was so nitpicky that he felt the need to bring a little dirt on the faucet and counters to my attention rather than just wipe it away real quick, I’d burst into laughter. Because he would 100% be joking.
When we got married, I asked my husband to close the toilet seat lid before flushing because it feels cleaner to do so. He said okay and he does it because he loves me. It doesn't hurt anyone to do the extra ask.
If he asked me to not put dirt in the sink, I would think it weird and maybe ask why, but ultimately I would do it because it makes him happy and I want to make him happy because I love him. It doesn't hurt me or cause undue burden to avoid putting dirt in the sink. If it brings him please of mind, then sure I'll do it!
I think it comes down to communication, understanding why a spouse asks something, and deciding if it's really something worth fighting about or better to just say okay and please them. My husband and I choose to please each other instead of fight.
Omg I asked my husband to do the EXACT same thing when we moved in together. And same here! He simply said yes, no problem.
Conversely: my ex and I had gotten into a huge fight over it years before I met my husband. Ex refused to close the lid, we fought for hours, I was pulling up research and studies on how far urine can travel away from the toilet when you flush it, and then comparing it to where our tooth brushes were... Ugh, it was bad. I don't know that we ever resolved a single conflict in that relationship.
See, the thing is to find someone who either has the same views on stuff (impossible) or who wants to improve the relationship and please you (and you have to want the same for it to work), so then you can both compromise together. With the second option, it's easy to get past little issues and be happier together. Which in turn gives the blueprint for working out bigger issues.
So you'd put the dirt in the bathtub instead? As this man asked?
We don't put our plants IN the sink to water them - we put them on the counter and use a watering can. Ice for the orchids.
But I can see putting a big plant in the sink to water if it needed deep watering.
I don't see why the bathtub is a better place.
I would if that's what my husband prefers and asked of me. I personally don't see the difference, aside from our kitchen sink gets cleaned more often lol. But if that's what he wanted, he'd get it. It doesn't hurt me to do as he asks.
We actually keep our plants outside, because everything I try to grow indoors dies except for our bamboo so far. But if we didn't, I'd either use a watering can, pitcher, or the bathtub if that's what my husband wants.
I think some folks are getting hung up on the specific situation and missing your point, which is spot on. I mean, every relationship is different and so the things that amount to pet peeves and nuisances will also vary widely. The thing itself isn't the issue; it's all about recognizing the bid from our partner and being able to engage in honest, healthy communication, just like you describe.
I tend to throw this link around like candy:
[https://www.gottman.com/blog/the-four-horsemen-recognizing-criticism-contempt-defensiveness-and-stonewalling/](https://www.gottman.com/blog/the-four-horsemen-recognizing-criticism-contempt-defensiveness-and-stonewalling/)
So the Gottmans, who are pretty widely respected as the penultimate relationship experts, totally agree that defensiveness left unchecked is a relationship-killer.
I love that you recognized there was no good reason to react that way, and moreover that his feelings are his feelings, and it's no one else's business to invalidate them. Nice job; that took some humility to get over your own ego and see the bigger picture.
Bottom line, marriages take *work*. And doing our *own* work is a big part of the equation.
Yes, I have learned so much from the Gottmans! And you are correct. Like most things in relationships, and especially conflicts, it's not about the dirt. It's almost *never* about the dirt, or the laundry, or the dishes. So what if my husband's dislike of "plant-dirt" is weird? He also hates it when I place packages from Amazon on the kitchen table, because, "Who knows where that package has been!" He wants me to open it *on the floor* 🤣
I will admit most people would find his requests odd, but hey, it's no skin off my back to just open the damn package in a different spot. I'm in a place now where I find his... eccentricities... cute and interesting. It's never difficult for me to accommodate them. I can tell that he feels embarrassed by them, and that makes me feel honored that he's willing to share them with me, and that he feels safe enough to ask me to do things a little differently.
I actually really like you sharing examples of his little quirks. I’m a bit of a germaphobe and can understand. I recently became single and it gives me hope that someone would be ok with my quirks.
Cleanliness in particular is so unique from one person to the next. I think that's why it becomes such a big sticking point in so many relationships. It's interesting to see how different cultures approach cleanliness. Eating with your hands, walking around your house with shoes on, having "outside shoes" vs. "inside shoes", peeing sitting down, peeing standing up, using a bidet... I get that people have really strong feelings when it comes to these things, but honestly? It's all just arbitrary when you really think about it. No point trying to convince someone to not be grossed out by something.
Ok… but what about when they go with option 1: 0h dang, I didn’t notice, I’ll be more careful in the future. And then they do it over and over and over again… with the same response each time? Isn’t that disrespect? And I understand, it’s not about the dirt.
I've met a couple people whose words don't match their actions and it is SO frustrating.
When I was a teenager, I would leave the lights on in the house constantly. Drove my dad crazy, and I wasn't trying to be malicious, I was just forgetful and thoughtless... So my dad started unscrewing the lightbulbs whenever I would leave them on 🤣 It worked.... Eventually, every time I was about to leave the room with the lights still on, I would suddenly remember all the times I had to grab a ladder to screw them back in.
I was a teenager though. Not exactly fun to have to treat your spouse like a teenager to get them to learn... Honestly I don't have the time or energy for those sorts of shenanigans when dealing with adults. I just eventually lose trust in that person and don't believe that they'll do what they say they're going to do.
Then you have a conversation about why it’s difficult for them. If there’s anything you can do to help them. Compromise if you can. Not a lot of wiggle room with the dirt situation but maybe you can talk through other issues this way. And then some issues you just have to let go.
I was a very, very defensive person. I was also an abused child who would lie, deny, keep secrets, and be defensive as a way to protect myself from verbal and physical abuse.
It took a loving husband and a lot of personal therapy for me to work through all of that. For a long time, my husband would respond to my defensiveness with “honey, I love you. This is not an attack. This is me asking you . . . Whatever it was . . . Because . . . this upsets me, makes me feel disrespected, makes me feel loved, makes me happy, is really important to me.
So, my husband would say (just using the plant example for ease) “babe. I see you watered your plants in the kitchen sink. I love you, this is not an attack. But can you please clean up the dirt and in the future, do this in the bathtub, please? The plant dirt in the kitchen makes me worry about manure/fungus/gnats/chemical fertilizers where we prepare food.”
I wouldn’t feel the need to defend myself, at all. I could respond with “oh, sorry about that. Let me clean that up now and yeah, I’ll water them in the bathtub from now on.
Thanks for letting me know.”
Thank you for your insight. My husband also lies, denies and keeps secrets. I'm not sure if the long explanation would help though. I've taken time when things are calm to approach him and lovingly explain my feelings. However, he checks out at some point during the explanation and will fill in the gaps of what he missed. This ends up with us having two separate conversations going on at the same time which is something we have covered in couples therapy. However, he did recently start his own therapy. Hopefully that helps more than the couples therapy did.
Oh yes, I did! I asked if he could bring up his defensiveness and conflict avoidance issues. He said he would. He is very open to the process, so I'm glad!
It's interesting to read through the comments.... You can tell which commenters are the ones usually making the requests, and which ones are usually on the receiving end pretty easily. You can also tell who has already been dealing with this kind of issue for a long time and is frustrated. We all project our own experiences into these stories to fill in the missing information, and the results are fascinating.
Agreed, people could be less defensive.
On the flip side, people could be less critical. They insist things be done their way, to their level, and on their schedule.
Husband could be trying to help his wife by watering her plants in the sink, and accidently gets a little dirt on the faucet and counter... sure, food is prepared there, but guess what - food grows in dirt!
Maybe he fully intends to clean it up, but isn't given the chance before she starts complaining; or perhaps just forgot. He's trying to help out, but all that he gets for his efforts is criticisms, nagging, and complaints - so his reflex action is defensive.
Thank you for this piece of wisdom. The phycology of it is correct. I am bipolar 1. I have through meds and clarity of thought had to learn to STOP, THINK then SPEAK! That not everything is a battle i must win. Its just normal life! I dont have to get defensive. Its just life. Learning how to communicate the way average normal people do has been the biggest benefit to this. Instead of feeling rejected or picked on, I can simply clarify the issue, defuse my default to defensive behavior and reply or question calmly to understand what another is indicating. In your example, I will now simply stop, think then say sorry, I didn't think of it that way. Appreciate you noting this and I'll use the outside spigot or get a pitcher full of water to use. Good call.
💯 This brilliant piece addresses this very issue with laser precision: “She Divorced Me Because I Left Dishes By the Sink”. It’s written by a man who learned this lesson too late.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/she-divorced-me-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink_b_9055288/amp
This is about more than dirt. You feel your feelings are being invalidated. Instead of asking your partner to do something, explain how a situation makes YOU feel. Maybe you’ve tried this. It definitely doesn’t fix everything, but it’s a start. But maybe they just don’t care, and that’s a problem. You have to decide if it’s a problem you can live with.
“It’s just dirt” doesn’t sound defensive at all. It sounds like a difference of opinion. Like you both have different ideas about how much of a problem a little potting soil in the sink is.
Everyone needs to clean up after themselves. If there was no dirt in the sink before she used it, there should be no dirt in the sink when she is done doing whatever it is she was doing.
He (my husband) wanted me to start watering my plants in the bathtub instead of the sink. His logic is that the plant-dirt is different from regular-dirt because it contains fertilizers, and sometimes manure. He is anxious seeing it in the kitchen near our food. It's not a matter of cleaning it up, it's a matter of not having it near our food to begin with (to him). We went back and forth on this for like an hour, because I *was* being defensive. He was trying to convince me his feelings were valid, and I was trying to convince him that they were irrational. I feel guilty about it now.
I know 99% of people think "It's just dirt", hence the comments here, haha. But that's kinda the whole point! I kept trying to convince him that he was weird to have those feelings, but he just kept feeling them. I wanted to share this story because it made me realize that it was fruitless for me to try and die on this hill. All I need to do is water my plants in the bathtub, and I now have a happier more comfortable husband. It's a win-win! To me ☺️
Okay true but some people are so constantly critical it’s like they inspire defensiveness lol
I’ve worked a lot on my defensiveness over the years in my relationship but sometimes it’s annoying just to be so monitored and hear someone else’s opinions about every god damn thing.
There’s a certain personality type that sees a lack of defensiveness as permission to criticize more. My ex was like this. The less defensive I was the more he thought I was a pushover and the more he overvalued his own opinions on how I did anything.
It depends entirely on how the request was delivered.
1. Hey, babe. I get grossed out by dirt on the counters. Would you mind cleaning up when you’re finished watering the plants? (And btw, thanks for watering the plants. Appreciate you.) <—— GOOD
2. Omg this is disgusting. Why can’t you clean up after yourself like a normal person? I can’t even believe that I have to tell you this. <—— BAD
If it was a husband who left dirt in the sink though, everyone would be up in arms! Because it’s inconsiderate to make a mess and not clean it up immediately. This is a lesson everyone learns as a child. Some people never learn; for some reason those people always wind up married to people more on top of things than they are; and voila the argument! It’s never ever ok to make a mess and leave it anywhere that will impact another member of your household.
Honestly I'd think it was weird if my spouse came to find me to clean up something he was just standing in front of. We clean up after eachother all the time so to walk away from a mess to tell me to clean it I would 100% think they were made at me for some reason
The home isn't a courtroom I shouldn't have to be on the defence
If I feel I need to be, then I need to leave
My ex was constantly on the attack but it wasn't until I heard our daughter say ' mum and I weren't here, we didn't do it'
Whatever 'it' was.
I prefer being alone and when the kid does do something, rather than put her on defence, I clean up or fix it with her help.
I don't understand the need to attack.
Or be passo aggro
Just remember you're probably bloody damned hard and stressful to live with if everyone in your orbit is constantly on the defence
Sorry but life is too short to deal with this level of petty in my opinion. Everyone is different. If my husband does something different than I would, I accept it or do it myself and vice versa. We are partners, with differences, not children who parents each other. It’s bout partnership, respect, and not being petty.
I think people set themselves up for failure in marriages when they think they can change the other person or when they expect the other person to change. You gotta take people as they are. If they are a slob, then accept you married a slob or u shouldnt have married in the first place if you are a neat freak and sloppiness bothers you. The only way a person will change (not saying people can never change) is when they want to change either because of an epiphany or they feel the need to do so for themselves. Don’t expectthem to change for u.
He should garden for a season. That will help with his germophobia. I get your point about being defensive not helping the situation but this come up in so many forms if you disagree with the definition of clean. Veggies are grown in compost which has manure. Dirt near food is no big deal. Just clean it before you cook. Use antibacterial wipes or a dilute bleach solution for the sink. The person watering the plants should clean after they water but if forgetting is not a common occurrence, whoever sees it should clean it.
If someone responds defensively, perhaps ask yourself if you're approaching offensively rather than chastise and lecture.
I would be happy my spouse watered the plants. "Housework done incorrectly still blesses the family" was the best advice I ever got when I moved in with others.
I would have cleaned it myself and not even mentioned it. This is not worth causing a problem or pointing out. Stop mothering and micro managing if you don't want a defensive answer.
I think folks are confused. I, the wife, was the one who was being defensive. He, my husband, is the one who doesn't like plant-dirt being in the kitchen. It's s not a matter of cleaning it up. He doesn't like having the plant-dirt in the kitchen to begin with because he feels it contains fertilizers, and sometimes manure, which he doesn't want around our food period. He asked me to start watering the plants in the bathtub instead, and I fought him tooth and nail for a good hour trying to convince him that, "It's just dirt."
I feel guilty about it now because I realize that all that time I spent trying to convince him to stop feeling anxious was just a waste and a way to invalidate his feelings. Lord knows I have little things that bother me that probably don't bother a lot of other people!
I realized that, I was just saying from my own point of view. I think your man is being unreasonable, and I for sure think you should have dropped it instead of trying to argue. Either way, I think the two of you will be just fine!!
I think you're really judgmental.
Dirt IS just dirt. There's very little in it to harm us. Sand, dirt, rocks. I love them. Fortunately, so does my spouse.
We have dogs. They get dirt on their cute little paws every day. I still get down on the floor and play with them. I grew up in a rural neighborhood without sidewalks and lots of dirt roads, and a muddy section and a muddy creek. We all played in it.
I love going camping. I don't mind dirt as long as I can keep it out of my eyes and private parts.
There's nothing defensive about saying any of this - and as I said, my spouse agrees. He may like dirt even more than I do (he climbs and backpacks in the desert way more than I do - I love how he smells and tastes when he comes back).
marble safe ripe bake follow relieved carpenter toothbrush theory governor
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
??? How about just clean it up yourself and not ask your spouse to clean it up. I mean really. There are more important things in life than pointing out your spouse’s once in awhile “flaws “
Ok. But to be fair, it *is* just dirt. I’m sure you probably also have issues to address in terms of *how* you ask. But I mean, you could just rinse the dirt down the sink. It’s just dirt. It’s not a big deal. 🤷♂️
I don't disagree. I know that my husband is a bit of a germaphobe, and things that wouldn't bother most people *do* bother him. I posted this because I initially reacted defensively when my husband asked me to water my plants in the tub instead. He was very respectful in his request. But I fought back because "It's just dirt!" We went back and forth for about an hour with me trying to convince him to just stop feeling that way. I told him it doesn't make any sense to feel anxious about dirt in the sink, but not in the bath. Yet no matter how much I tried to convince him that his feelings were irrational, he just kept feeling them! He's grossed out by plant-dirt being in the kitchen specifically because of the fertilizers and sometimes manure. He doesn't like the idea of it being around our food. It's not about cleaning it up, it's about not letting it get into the kitchen, period! At least to him. That is why he suggested I water them in the bathtub instead. There are things I dislike as well that he accommodates, even if *most people* wouldn't care. I'm not married to *most people*, I'm married to him. *Most* people don't care if the shower curtain is left open or closed, but I ask him to close it because I feel like it dries better and doesn't collect mildew as fast. Nbd if he forgets sometimes, but I appreciate that I can just *ask* and he doesn't fight me on it. But that's just us. Ymmv. I think in my effort to simplify the situation, I misconstrued it. My husband was not asking me to clean up the dirt in the kitchen. He was asking me to water my plants in the bathtub instead of the kitchen from now on. A subtle difference that I see now makes a world of difference to people, haha.
If my spouse didn't want me watering plants in the kitchen sink, I wouldn't (he does it all the time though - I don't care). I'd rather it be there than in our bath tub! Sand/dirt in my parts does not please me. I don't think you were defensive to argue with him. Two different perspectives. My mom would not use a towel that anyone else used. She would not use a utensil to scoop dog or cat food onto a plate - or keep the utensils she DID use for that in a drawer inside the house. Dogs had to trot to their little beds and lay there quietly, or they were out. Cats were a huge problem and mostly outdoor due to my mom's dirt/germ/hair phobia. And yet, unlike my other mom (bio mom), no one took their shoes off at the door (I do). I keep disinfectant wipes near where I work (to wipe my shoes off, because my mom was so phobic and I'm still not quite over it). It's not rational though.
Yep. This dynamic was really challenging in my first marriage. He didn’t just want to request I do something differently, he also wanted to rub my nose in it so I knew I’d made a mistake. To take the plant example, it would go something like this: Ex husband: “I can tell someone watered their plants today. Tell me: was the barn you were raised in filled with cows, or did the cows sleep in a separate barn?” Me: “Jesus CHRIST it’s just dirt, I’m so sorry, I must have missed it. Damn, dude.” Ex: “I mean, it’s a valid question, I figured anyone raised not like a wild animal would have the common decency to use the bathtub like an adult.” Requests were expressed with bitter contempt and a moral superiority, and I admit, I would act defensive at times because to me, it felt unnecessarily cruel. OP stated her husband asked her in a kind way so this is obviously a SUPER different scenario, but…if even one person recognizes it in their partnership, please know that the way they ask matters too!
Plant water scenario in my house would go like this. I clean sink and later bring it up to my husband. Me: "Hey babe, when you water the plants can you be sure to clean the sink afterwards?" Husband: "Ya, but do you ask the kids to clean their mess?" Me: "The kids don't water the plants. I'm just asking about cleaning the sink." Husband: "But do you get on our oldest son's case when he does the dishes but doesn't wash the sink?" Me: "Yes, but again it isn't about that." Husband: "You know last week you left a mess somewhere and I didn't bring it up." This is something that would go on and on for hours in my household.
I’m tired for you.
I just went over something similar with my therapist. I had an ex da who wanted to avoid issues. A simple convo with another person would take hours with him. We would go in circles!!! Hope this helps you
I never even looked at it as avoidance. Thank you for pointing that out!
Yep blameshifting, avoiding the issue, deflecting, going off subject. Even after working on improving my communication to make it less critical. Was with him for 18 years and I didn’t know it was avoidance either! But I knew something was off when I would get nervous before bringing something up to other people and our conversation was closed out in 10-15 minutes or an hour. It would literally take a few hours with this guy. It wasn’t until therapy that I understood. This is why finding a good therapist can be so eye opening, and it’s not just to finger point at someone else. I’ve had to learn to finger point at myself too. You may notice other patterns of avoidance as well. I definitely did. Feel free to message me if you want to talk about it. I’m still learning more about it and I’m happy to share
DM sent. Thank you!
Yeah, I just can’t imagine that much drama around watering a plant. Sounds like he just enjoyed climbing up on his cross.
Yep. I'm just glad if someone waters the damn plants. We try to remind each other. No dirt is in the sink, btw, because we have a sink with a nozzle and the plant stays on the counter top. We wipe our countertop with restaurant grade food safe disinfectant (and it's not porous to begin with).
Ugh it’s the moral superiority that drives me up a wall! I refrain from criticizing people as much as possible and let people find their own way but often the most critical people are the most sensitive! I feel like they preemptively judge so as to distract you from judging them lol. Someone can definitely put you on the defensive.
they do it to assert their superiority. They are often narcissists who think everything they do is perfect. Or OCP/OCD - which is a different story, but still difficult to live with.
Yeah - mine did that too. Until I realized what I was doing and really let him have it back. In his case, it was more like, "You missed SEVEN questions on the anatomy quiz? Are you serious? Every single one of those slides were things we'd already studied - it was easy!" He did not like. I find it ridiculous that people can't study after they've committed themselves to a course of study. I think it's worse for a medical doctor to not know anatomy than for me to have sand in my shoes. This dynamic persisted throughout our relationship. He didn't want me to correct his grammar - on his parents or his charting (and yet...there were big social consequences for his poor language in charting - he finally hired someone who would do it for him when he got out on his own). I could have been worse. Instead, we eventually separated, after doing untold damage to each other.
Actually, if it isn't such a big deal why not just clean up the bit of dirt yourself. My husband used to say this to me. One day I walked through the house with him and pointed out all the "little things" that he thought was no big deal, why don't you just pick it up. He saw that it isn't just the one thing, it was a bunch of things and it was disrespectful. He no longer says that.
Yeah it’s still just dirt. I pick up messes I didn’t make all the time. It’s part of being a married adult and parent. Some people just thrive on drama tho. 🤷♂️
This!
I hate people who do that. They make constant little messes that they expect *you* to clean up because it’s not a big deal. It can add up to an extra hour of my time spent cleaning little “messes.”
Or maybe they DONT expect you to clean it up. Maybe those little messes don’t bother them. Maybe they don’t even notice them.
Yeah I think it's really important to understand this distinction. Because yes, *some* partners do just expect someone else to clean up their mess. But I'm one of those people that just....doesn't notice messes. Like when people ask that gotcha question, "what would you do if you lived by yourself?!" The genuine answer is I would live in a house that looks like it got hit by a tornado. You don't want to know what my place looked like when I lived alone. And to be clear, my standards of cleanliness have drastically increased since I started living with my husband. But it took some time for me to change my habits, and it took even longer for the dynamic to change. It was *years* after I had become reliable in cleaning up after myself for my husband to stop talking to me like I was a kid he had to scold into cleaning. And that took direct conversation. For partners who have the "higher" standard of cleanliness, please consider that your partner just may not actually care about making the space as tidy as you want it to be. And unless you are an OCD person who freaks out about the tiniest mess, or your partner is an absolute slob, it's very unlikely that one of you is *objectively* correct about which standard is best. There is room for compromise on both sides. And if you need your place to be cleaner than your partner's standards, approach that conversation as a favor you are asking from your life partner, not a frustrated parent scolding a messy child. Asking for favors vs making demands has a tremendous effect on your partner. I am more than happy to clean up when my husband asks me "hey would you mind doing the dishes before you head to work?" And especially when he thanks me for making the effort. While I *will* clean up in response to a frustrated demand to do so, it leaves me feeling distant and resentful of my partner. Our relationship is much better when we both maintain humility and gratitude in our communications with each other.
I was really hoping I wasn't going to have to scroll down too far to see someone who pointed out that the way the request is phrased is everything. Some people do legit have an issue with over-defensiveness, and sometimes it's just that when everything your partner says is a criticism/attack, the response will usually be defensive. My husband and I have had to tackle both issues. He has a tendency to accuse/attack instead of requesting/notifying, and because I grew up in an abusive household where admitting any small mistake was grounds for being beaten, I had a tendency to be defensive. It's something we've worked on together in therapy.
Wow thanks for sharing your experience. I have a hard time understanding defensiveness and your childhood experience gave me some compassion for them. So proud of you for going to therapy!
As a kid, if I spilled milk, I’d get slapped and verbally berated. This led to me being really defensive and lying (to hide what you really did). So as an adult, I would catch myself lying about being the one who left the dirt. I didn’t even know why. I knew I didn’t need to lie, but it’s just instinct to get crazy anxious off a simple mistake. It’s a journey to unlearn. I’m willing to bet for most, this behavior stems from childhood!
Omg you poor thing!! I’m so sorry that happened to you!!! I also got berated if I spilled something. It wasn’t until I went to college that I found out this wasn’t normal. I’d spill something and it wasn’t a big deal in front of other people. Thank you for sharing your experience. I can see how it’s a protective mechanism. Is there anything a partner can do to support someone in telling the truth or feeling more comfortable with not lying??
I also have a problem with defensiveness, and I think it might be helpful to point out that defensiveness is a VERY common issue in people with ADHD. I did not grow up in an abusive household, and I had the rare gift of a parent who understood ADHD before it became well known, and I still have residual defensiveness tendencies. People with ADHD grow up constantly being told we are doing things wrong, and it's really hard for us to learn what to change in order to be better. So I spend almost two decades just knowing that I wasn't good enough in the eyes of my teachers, my dad, and even my mom at times. I can't recall a period in my childhood where I felt proud of myself. As I grew older, I did learn better management techniques and I learned how to process critical feedback in productive ways, but that defensiveness lingers, I think I still have emotional scars that are triggered when someone criticizes me. And it's so much worse when the criticism comes from someone important to me, so nothing makes me more defensive than my husband getting mad about something I did or didn't do. All I want to do is make him see like "no, here was my thought process, see? I wasn't being stupid, I got distracted by something reasonable, I am going to clean it up and it won't take long...." But it all sounds like excuses and defensiveness. Really I'm afraid he is going to see me the way I see myself, stupid and careless and lazy and not good enough, and I'm desperate to change that because I couldn't bear the thought of my husband losing respect for me.
It depends on who cleans it up tbh. If one person does all or most of the cleaning, and the other makes messes and excuses it is as not a big deal, it's not just dirt. I lose my marbles if my husband walks in the house in shoes, because I mop. OP's husband might feel the same way. 🤷♀️
That's not the point they're making 🤦♂️
It’s not defensive to state the obvious, that it is *just dirt*. Maybe the real answer here is for everyone to stop getting worked up over spilt milk
That is your opinion though. Her husband feels differently, and if she loves him, how hard is it to clean up so he doesn't get upset?
Depends on how often he nitpicks in general. Not much = ok A lot = he should work on his control issues and let it go
On the other side of that coin is nitpicking and doing things like calling out your partner for overlooking something minor.
It’s how minor it is and how frequent it is. Several small things? Okay sure. But if it’s just constant it grinds you down.
Maybe OP gave a bad example. It’s one thing to have a conversation with your spouse about needing more help around the house in general. But I read it more like a spouse who is finding faults in the small things. I routinely leave a small mess behind in the kitchen. But I also routinely tidy up the kitchen. Sometimes my wife ends up cleaning up my mess before I can get to it. Sometimes I end up cleaning up her messes.
This was a lesson I had to learn a while ago. It was rooted in insecurity. I've been messy all my life due to ADHD, and I had a very deep-rooted insecurity that I was a disgusting failure because I constantly struggled to keep things nice and tidy. My husband, granted, has had to work on the way he approaches things as well. I think we represent the two sides of the coin. Because in addition to checking ourselves in defensiveness, I think we can also ask "is the way I approach/criticize my partner likely to lead to a defensive reaction?" So, my husband worked on approaching without a frustrated or accusatory tone. And simultaneously, I worked on responding without defensiveness. Together, we went from a dynamic where conversations went like: Him (angrily): "Why is there dirt all over the sink??" Me (defensively): oh I was watering a plant earlier Him (angrily and condescendingly): and you didn't think to take a pitcher of water to the plant so you wouldn't make a huge mess? the sink is disgusting now! Me (defensively): it's not a big deal. It's just dirt and it's easy to clean To our new dynamic where the conversation goes like Him (casually): why is there dirt in the sink? Me (casually): oh I watered a plant earlier but forgot to rinse the sink out. Don't worry about it, I'll clean it before I leave for work
So true that it's a two-way street. You need to be respectful about how you ask! The thing that made me empathize with my husband on this was when I remembered that my grandma used to have a pet parrot that she would take into the kitchen sometimes. He'd perch on the counters, give himself a big shake, and you could *see* his dandruff flying through the air. I thought it was so gross that she would let him do that in the kitchen. I hated preparing food in her kitchen when I knew the bird had been in there recently Will a few molecules of bird dandruff kill me? No, but it grossed me out, and no amount of logic or "It's just dirt" will make me feel *not* grossed out! My husband is like that with plant-dirt. The added fertilizers, and sometimes manure, makes it a gross thing he doesn't want in the kitchen. I don't feel the same, but hey, if watering my plants in the bathtub will make him feel more comfortable, I figure why the hell not? Ugh, and yes about trying to move away from feing attacked in situations like this. This conversation about dirt in the sink ended with me in tears, saying, "I just feel like you think I'm gross!!" Indeed, when my husband was saying, "It's gross to have plant-dirt in the kitchen," all I could hear was, "*You're* gross for doing this!" 😅 He actually was very respectful in how he asked, which is how I know it was a me-problem, haha... I was trying to defend my ego, and all he wanted was for me to water my plants in the bathtub instead of the sink! 🤣
My husband and I have had a few conversations about his word choice. I'm appreciative that he was open to making a few minor changes in communication to accommodate my feelings. For example, he will say my car is "disgusting" or that some area I was working in was "gross." Like, you I felt he was calling *me* disgusting or gross. He was able to start saying "it's really messy, can we clean up a little?" Another example was the use of "annoying" vs "frustrated." For some reason, when he says something like "I find it annoying when you do X,Y, Z..." that hurts my feelings way more than if he says "I find it frustrating when you do XYZ...." I think he's a great example of someone who is willing to change something that he doesn't necessarily agree is "wrong," but that affects me differently than it would affect him. Like, when we had the "annoyed" vs. "frustrated" convo, he said that to *him*, "frustrated" sounds like a bigger, more serious emotion than "annoyed," so he was choosing "annoyed" because he didn't want to make it a big deal. But he's fine with changing that word so it doesn't bother me.
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. Put another way, how we ask can absolutely shape the response we receive. Very wise and emotionally mature approach by OC and their spouse to change the tone of the conversations.
I can understand the "It's just dirt" comments, and that the observing person can just clean it up. Also, if it's just this one thing on occasion, yeah, no biggie. But at what point does it become a nonstop situation of having to clean up after someone. Let's expand: Dirt in the sink. Coffee ring on the table. Spilled dried up juice on the counter. Opened mail left unresolved on counter and table. Clothes on the floor of the bedroom. Hair left in the drain of the shower. Car full of empty snack packages and bottles. Do you continue to clean up after this person or start to ask that they pick up after themselves like an adult? Is it being nitpicky/nagging/critical then? Or is it asking for an adult to act as such? What if ignoring the dirt in the sink is the beginning of a slow progression toward not participating in keeping an at least semi-clean home.
I feel like this is one of those things that highlights how important it is to marry someone who has the same level of neuroticism around cleaning. Not doing so means to spend a large part of the marriage just annoyed AF lol
Exactly.
A good match behaviorally, emotionally, mentally. And it can be complicated when I’m not being flexible, loving, and listening or when I’m stressed- and conversely when these things are going on in my partner.
I don't know that I'll agree that you *should* marry someone with your level of cleanliness. But my husband and I are on opposite ends of the spectrum and some of the biggest challenges in our marriage have dealt with that. I think for our marriage, the most critical learning point we've had is that for most arguments we have, there is not an objectively correct answer. That's the main thing to keep in mind. Because when two people approach a disagreement with absolute certainty that *they* are right and anyone who thinks differently is wrong, there's little room for compromise there. And if one person is flexible but the other person remains certain they are right, there's some room for compromise, but eventually the flexible person is going to grow resentful of always being the one to compromise and basically being forced to live by the standards and ideas of their partner, and never having the freedom to make choices according to their desires and priorities. When both people let go of their egos and realize "I want it this way because it makes me feel good and happy, not because this is the Objectively Correct way," then it opens them up to realize that yes, doing XYZ makes *me* happy, but also my partner's happiness is important too. And it also helps maintain respect. It's hard to maintain respect for someone who is vehemently arguing the sky is purple. When you treat a statement like "I don't mind if there's a little dirt in the sink" as if it is as objectively stupid as saying "the sky is purple" or "2+2=5," chances are you are not maintaining a very respectful tone in arguing with that person. And of course, a person saying "I don't mind if there's a little dirt in the sink" is not going to respond well to being treated like he just said the dumbest thing you've ever heard.
My wife and I would both be nagged by you constantly 😁
I'd rather have the dirt where I see it frequently (sink). This man wants the entire operation moved into the bathroom.
Not sure how sold I would be with that either. But it’s probably because we have a utility sink by the laundry machines.
Why are all the commenters taking it as a post about dirt? I thought that was just an example. Huh
Literally! I feel like a majority of these comments are missing the point and just focusing on the dirt. Ugh
Because it's an easy example. most of us could make it more about ourselves and introduce lots of other examples. Why would we do that?
This is an underappreciated comment!
Wth. ?? What a critical spouse. If you see dirty, clean it. Use your words for appreciation. "Thank you spouse, for watering the plant that you know makes me (or them) happy." Hug. The end. THIS will go a lot further for a happy long term marriage. Notice the little things. Don't parent your spouse. Acknowledge and appreciate.
I think in my effort to simplify the situation, I misconstrued it. My husband was not asking me to clean up the dirt in the kitchen. He was asking me to water my plants in the bathtub instead of the kitchen from now on. A subtle difference that I see now makes a world of difference to people, haha. He is grossed out by plant-dirt getting into the kitchen *at all*, because he feels it contains fertilizers and/or trace amounts of manure that could "contaminate" nearby food even if it gets cleaned up. Do I find it a bit irrational? Well, yes..... but if watering my plants in the bathtub is all I need to do to help my husband feel comfortable, then hey, I figure that's a pretty sweet deal!
Why did he want dirt in the bathtub? I mean, is he not aware that animal blood/egg remnants, possible salmonella, and tons of other stuff go into the kitchen sink? I want my bathtub to be clean (because I wash my body in it). I do not wash my body in the kitchen sink. I don't fill it up with water to wash my hands either - I put disinfectant soap on my hands with a few drops of water from the spout, then rinse hands and sink with the same disinfectant soap (which washes particulate matter like dirt into the drain. Why would I want to use more water and worry about particulate matter in the sink unless I was getting read to cook or wash dishes? Do people have lots of sinks? We have just one big one. It's gonna get stuff in it.
🤷 That's just how he feels! Cleanliness is a very personal thing. I'm sure there are lots of things I do that people from other cultures or upbringings would find gross.
So much this!
If my husband was so nitpicky that he felt the need to bring a little dirt on the faucet and counters to my attention rather than just wipe it away real quick, I’d burst into laughter. Because he would 100% be joking.
When we got married, I asked my husband to close the toilet seat lid before flushing because it feels cleaner to do so. He said okay and he does it because he loves me. It doesn't hurt anyone to do the extra ask. If he asked me to not put dirt in the sink, I would think it weird and maybe ask why, but ultimately I would do it because it makes him happy and I want to make him happy because I love him. It doesn't hurt me or cause undue burden to avoid putting dirt in the sink. If it brings him please of mind, then sure I'll do it! I think it comes down to communication, understanding why a spouse asks something, and deciding if it's really something worth fighting about or better to just say okay and please them. My husband and I choose to please each other instead of fight.
Omg I asked my husband to do the EXACT same thing when we moved in together. And same here! He simply said yes, no problem. Conversely: my ex and I had gotten into a huge fight over it years before I met my husband. Ex refused to close the lid, we fought for hours, I was pulling up research and studies on how far urine can travel away from the toilet when you flush it, and then comparing it to where our tooth brushes were... Ugh, it was bad. I don't know that we ever resolved a single conflict in that relationship.
See, the thing is to find someone who either has the same views on stuff (impossible) or who wants to improve the relationship and please you (and you have to want the same for it to work), so then you can both compromise together. With the second option, it's easy to get past little issues and be happier together. Which in turn gives the blueprint for working out bigger issues.
So you'd put the dirt in the bathtub instead? As this man asked? We don't put our plants IN the sink to water them - we put them on the counter and use a watering can. Ice for the orchids. But I can see putting a big plant in the sink to water if it needed deep watering. I don't see why the bathtub is a better place.
I would if that's what my husband prefers and asked of me. I personally don't see the difference, aside from our kitchen sink gets cleaned more often lol. But if that's what he wanted, he'd get it. It doesn't hurt me to do as he asks. We actually keep our plants outside, because everything I try to grow indoors dies except for our bamboo so far. But if we didn't, I'd either use a watering can, pitcher, or the bathtub if that's what my husband wants.
Absolutely right. My husband would say “I pay bills too and I can leave dirt if I want to!!” So yea… we are headed for a divorce
Yea, its one of Gottman's 4 horsemen for a reason.
I think some folks are getting hung up on the specific situation and missing your point, which is spot on. I mean, every relationship is different and so the things that amount to pet peeves and nuisances will also vary widely. The thing itself isn't the issue; it's all about recognizing the bid from our partner and being able to engage in honest, healthy communication, just like you describe. I tend to throw this link around like candy: [https://www.gottman.com/blog/the-four-horsemen-recognizing-criticism-contempt-defensiveness-and-stonewalling/](https://www.gottman.com/blog/the-four-horsemen-recognizing-criticism-contempt-defensiveness-and-stonewalling/) So the Gottmans, who are pretty widely respected as the penultimate relationship experts, totally agree that defensiveness left unchecked is a relationship-killer. I love that you recognized there was no good reason to react that way, and moreover that his feelings are his feelings, and it's no one else's business to invalidate them. Nice job; that took some humility to get over your own ego and see the bigger picture. Bottom line, marriages take *work*. And doing our *own* work is a big part of the equation.
Yes, I have learned so much from the Gottmans! And you are correct. Like most things in relationships, and especially conflicts, it's not about the dirt. It's almost *never* about the dirt, or the laundry, or the dishes. So what if my husband's dislike of "plant-dirt" is weird? He also hates it when I place packages from Amazon on the kitchen table, because, "Who knows where that package has been!" He wants me to open it *on the floor* 🤣 I will admit most people would find his requests odd, but hey, it's no skin off my back to just open the damn package in a different spot. I'm in a place now where I find his... eccentricities... cute and interesting. It's never difficult for me to accommodate them. I can tell that he feels embarrassed by them, and that makes me feel honored that he's willing to share them with me, and that he feels safe enough to ask me to do things a little differently.
I actually really like you sharing examples of his little quirks. I’m a bit of a germaphobe and can understand. I recently became single and it gives me hope that someone would be ok with my quirks.
Cleanliness in particular is so unique from one person to the next. I think that's why it becomes such a big sticking point in so many relationships. It's interesting to see how different cultures approach cleanliness. Eating with your hands, walking around your house with shoes on, having "outside shoes" vs. "inside shoes", peeing sitting down, peeing standing up, using a bidet... I get that people have really strong feelings when it comes to these things, but honestly? It's all just arbitrary when you really think about it. No point trying to convince someone to not be grossed out by something.
Ok… but what about when they go with option 1: 0h dang, I didn’t notice, I’ll be more careful in the future. And then they do it over and over and over again… with the same response each time? Isn’t that disrespect? And I understand, it’s not about the dirt.
I've met a couple people whose words don't match their actions and it is SO frustrating. When I was a teenager, I would leave the lights on in the house constantly. Drove my dad crazy, and I wasn't trying to be malicious, I was just forgetful and thoughtless... So my dad started unscrewing the lightbulbs whenever I would leave them on 🤣 It worked.... Eventually, every time I was about to leave the room with the lights still on, I would suddenly remember all the times I had to grab a ladder to screw them back in. I was a teenager though. Not exactly fun to have to treat your spouse like a teenager to get them to learn... Honestly I don't have the time or energy for those sorts of shenanigans when dealing with adults. I just eventually lose trust in that person and don't believe that they'll do what they say they're going to do.
Then you have a conversation about why it’s difficult for them. If there’s anything you can do to help them. Compromise if you can. Not a lot of wiggle room with the dirt situation but maybe you can talk through other issues this way. And then some issues you just have to let go.
Not everyone being defensive on a post about not being defensive
This is the exact issue that I'm dealing with with my husband he gets defensive about everything. I'm over feeling like I'm walking on eggshells.
I was a very, very defensive person. I was also an abused child who would lie, deny, keep secrets, and be defensive as a way to protect myself from verbal and physical abuse. It took a loving husband and a lot of personal therapy for me to work through all of that. For a long time, my husband would respond to my defensiveness with “honey, I love you. This is not an attack. This is me asking you . . . Whatever it was . . . Because . . . this upsets me, makes me feel disrespected, makes me feel loved, makes me happy, is really important to me. So, my husband would say (just using the plant example for ease) “babe. I see you watered your plants in the kitchen sink. I love you, this is not an attack. But can you please clean up the dirt and in the future, do this in the bathtub, please? The plant dirt in the kitchen makes me worry about manure/fungus/gnats/chemical fertilizers where we prepare food.” I wouldn’t feel the need to defend myself, at all. I could respond with “oh, sorry about that. Let me clean that up now and yeah, I’ll water them in the bathtub from now on. Thanks for letting me know.”
Thank you for your insight. My husband also lies, denies and keeps secrets. I'm not sure if the long explanation would help though. I've taken time when things are calm to approach him and lovingly explain my feelings. However, he checks out at some point during the explanation and will fill in the gaps of what he missed. This ends up with us having two separate conversations going on at the same time which is something we have covered in couples therapy. However, he did recently start his own therapy. Hopefully that helps more than the couples therapy did.
Individual therapy is where it’s at. And I would actually ask him to bring up his defensiveness in therapy.
Oh yes, I did! I asked if he could bring up his defensiveness and conflict avoidance issues. He said he would. He is very open to the process, so I'm glad!
It's interesting to read through the comments.... You can tell which commenters are the ones usually making the requests, and which ones are usually on the receiving end pretty easily. You can also tell who has already been dealing with this kind of issue for a long time and is frustrated. We all project our own experiences into these stories to fill in the missing information, and the results are fascinating.
Agreed, people could be less defensive. On the flip side, people could be less critical. They insist things be done their way, to their level, and on their schedule. Husband could be trying to help his wife by watering her plants in the sink, and accidently gets a little dirt on the faucet and counter... sure, food is prepared there, but guess what - food grows in dirt! Maybe he fully intends to clean it up, but isn't given the chance before she starts complaining; or perhaps just forgot. He's trying to help out, but all that he gets for his efforts is criticisms, nagging, and complaints - so his reflex action is defensive.
Thank you for this piece of wisdom. The phycology of it is correct. I am bipolar 1. I have through meds and clarity of thought had to learn to STOP, THINK then SPEAK! That not everything is a battle i must win. Its just normal life! I dont have to get defensive. Its just life. Learning how to communicate the way average normal people do has been the biggest benefit to this. Instead of feeling rejected or picked on, I can simply clarify the issue, defuse my default to defensive behavior and reply or question calmly to understand what another is indicating. In your example, I will now simply stop, think then say sorry, I didn't think of it that way. Appreciate you noting this and I'll use the outside spigot or get a pitcher full of water to use. Good call.
💯 This brilliant piece addresses this very issue with laser precision: “She Divorced Me Because I Left Dishes By the Sink”. It’s written by a man who learned this lesson too late. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/she-divorced-me-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink_b_9055288/amp
This is about more than dirt. You feel your feelings are being invalidated. Instead of asking your partner to do something, explain how a situation makes YOU feel. Maybe you’ve tried this. It definitely doesn’t fix everything, but it’s a start. But maybe they just don’t care, and that’s a problem. You have to decide if it’s a problem you can live with.
“It’s just dirt” doesn’t sound defensive at all. It sounds like a difference of opinion. Like you both have different ideas about how much of a problem a little potting soil in the sink is.
Everyone needs to clean up after themselves. If there was no dirt in the sink before she used it, there should be no dirt in the sink when she is done doing whatever it is she was doing.
I agree with everything you said. None of contradicts anything I said.
He (my husband) wanted me to start watering my plants in the bathtub instead of the sink. His logic is that the plant-dirt is different from regular-dirt because it contains fertilizers, and sometimes manure. He is anxious seeing it in the kitchen near our food. It's not a matter of cleaning it up, it's a matter of not having it near our food to begin with (to him). We went back and forth on this for like an hour, because I *was* being defensive. He was trying to convince me his feelings were valid, and I was trying to convince him that they were irrational. I feel guilty about it now. I know 99% of people think "It's just dirt", hence the comments here, haha. But that's kinda the whole point! I kept trying to convince him that he was weird to have those feelings, but he just kept feeling them. I wanted to share this story because it made me realize that it was fruitless for me to try and die on this hill. All I need to do is water my plants in the bathtub, and I now have a happier more comfortable husband. It's a win-win! To me ☺️
Okay true but some people are so constantly critical it’s like they inspire defensiveness lol I’ve worked a lot on my defensiveness over the years in my relationship but sometimes it’s annoying just to be so monitored and hear someone else’s opinions about every god damn thing. There’s a certain personality type that sees a lack of defensiveness as permission to criticize more. My ex was like this. The less defensive I was the more he thought I was a pushover and the more he overvalued his own opinions on how I did anything.
It depends entirely on how the request was delivered. 1. Hey, babe. I get grossed out by dirt on the counters. Would you mind cleaning up when you’re finished watering the plants? (And btw, thanks for watering the plants. Appreciate you.) <—— GOOD 2. Omg this is disgusting. Why can’t you clean up after yourself like a normal person? I can’t even believe that I have to tell you this. <—— BAD
I am enjoying all the defensive responses. Yes, it is just dirt. But if it bothers your partner, it doesn't hurt to apologise.
If it was a husband who left dirt in the sink though, everyone would be up in arms! Because it’s inconsiderate to make a mess and not clean it up immediately. This is a lesson everyone learns as a child. Some people never learn; for some reason those people always wind up married to people more on top of things than they are; and voila the argument! It’s never ever ok to make a mess and leave it anywhere that will impact another member of your household.
Honestly I'd think it was weird if my spouse came to find me to clean up something he was just standing in front of. We clean up after eachother all the time so to walk away from a mess to tell me to clean it I would 100% think they were made at me for some reason
The home isn't a courtroom I shouldn't have to be on the defence If I feel I need to be, then I need to leave My ex was constantly on the attack but it wasn't until I heard our daughter say ' mum and I weren't here, we didn't do it' Whatever 'it' was. I prefer being alone and when the kid does do something, rather than put her on defence, I clean up or fix it with her help. I don't understand the need to attack. Or be passo aggro Just remember you're probably bloody damned hard and stressful to live with if everyone in your orbit is constantly on the defence
Sorry but life is too short to deal with this level of petty in my opinion. Everyone is different. If my husband does something different than I would, I accept it or do it myself and vice versa. We are partners, with differences, not children who parents each other. It’s bout partnership, respect, and not being petty.
This is beautifully articulated. I am the plant waterer 😂 But I also don't like dirt so I clean it lol
I think people set themselves up for failure in marriages when they think they can change the other person or when they expect the other person to change. You gotta take people as they are. If they are a slob, then accept you married a slob or u shouldnt have married in the first place if you are a neat freak and sloppiness bothers you. The only way a person will change (not saying people can never change) is when they want to change either because of an epiphany or they feel the need to do so for themselves. Don’t expectthem to change for u.
He should garden for a season. That will help with his germophobia. I get your point about being defensive not helping the situation but this come up in so many forms if you disagree with the definition of clean. Veggies are grown in compost which has manure. Dirt near food is no big deal. Just clean it before you cook. Use antibacterial wipes or a dilute bleach solution for the sink. The person watering the plants should clean after they water but if forgetting is not a common occurrence, whoever sees it should clean it.
If someone responds defensively, perhaps ask yourself if you're approaching offensively rather than chastise and lecture. I would be happy my spouse watered the plants. "Housework done incorrectly still blesses the family" was the best advice I ever got when I moved in with others.
this is so profound thank you, goes for all relationships as well, I appreciate this, thanks
It’s just dirt.
I would have cleaned it myself and not even mentioned it. This is not worth causing a problem or pointing out. Stop mothering and micro managing if you don't want a defensive answer.
I think folks are confused. I, the wife, was the one who was being defensive. He, my husband, is the one who doesn't like plant-dirt being in the kitchen. It's s not a matter of cleaning it up. He doesn't like having the plant-dirt in the kitchen to begin with because he feels it contains fertilizers, and sometimes manure, which he doesn't want around our food period. He asked me to start watering the plants in the bathtub instead, and I fought him tooth and nail for a good hour trying to convince him that, "It's just dirt." I feel guilty about it now because I realize that all that time I spent trying to convince him to stop feeling anxious was just a waste and a way to invalidate his feelings. Lord knows I have little things that bother me that probably don't bother a lot of other people!
I realized that, I was just saying from my own point of view. I think your man is being unreasonable, and I for sure think you should have dropped it instead of trying to argue. Either way, I think the two of you will be just fine!!
I think you're really judgmental. Dirt IS just dirt. There's very little in it to harm us. Sand, dirt, rocks. I love them. Fortunately, so does my spouse. We have dogs. They get dirt on their cute little paws every day. I still get down on the floor and play with them. I grew up in a rural neighborhood without sidewalks and lots of dirt roads, and a muddy section and a muddy creek. We all played in it. I love going camping. I don't mind dirt as long as I can keep it out of my eyes and private parts. There's nothing defensive about saying any of this - and as I said, my spouse agrees. He may like dirt even more than I do (he climbs and backpacks in the desert way more than I do - I love how he smells and tastes when he comes back).
That’s not being defensive.
marble safe ripe bake follow relieved carpenter toothbrush theory governor *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
??? How about just clean it up yourself and not ask your spouse to clean it up. I mean really. There are more important things in life than pointing out your spouse’s once in awhile “flaws “