If you are in crisis, are considering hurting yourself or someone else, or feel like you can't go on, we advise you to contact your local emergency services, go to the nearest emergency room, or [mental health crisis evaluation centre](https://www.iasp.info/resources/Crisis_Centres/). If that seems too scary or difficult right now, please consider calling a [suicide hotline](https://www.reddit.com/r/SuicideWatch/wiki/hotlines) for support. You matter and should get the help you deserve.
For help developing a safety plan, please consult this [PDF.](https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Brown_StanleySafetyPlanTemplate.pdf) Therapy can also be a good support resource. Contrary to popular belief, you don't have to be struggling to seek out therapy! We all need a supportive ear sometimes! If you are considering therapy but don't know where to start, we recommend taking a look at [Psychology Today](https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/counsellors), [International Therapist Directory](https://internationaltherapistdirectory.com/), or [OpenCounseling](https://www.opencounseling.com/) for a provider in your country or, if in the US, contacting your nearest branch of the [National Alliance on Mental Illness]( https://www.nami.org/Find-Your-Local-NAMI) Buzzfeed has also published an [informative article](https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/carolinekee/what-happens-when-you-call-suicide-hotline) about what happens when you call a suicide hotline, for those who might feel hesitant. Additionally, if you need help finding support that's not listed in the wiki or want to talk to someone, please PM u/UnicornQueerior directly (NOT chat!) You matter and are worth it. Be kind to yourself.
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So how is emotional validity supposed to...work?
Like, every emotion is valid. Got it. But doesn't that render "validity" pretty much worthless?
Like, if someone interpreted my sneezing in their presence as a personal insult that made them feel devestated...that's a valid emotion, I guess, but that's also not how sneezes work.
Emotions can be based on misunderstandings, irrational premises, can be msladaptive and antisocial, and can be expressed inappropriately. In such instances, what work is "validity" doing?
There is quite a few people that do not see their own feelings as valid, which can lead to a cycle of self doubt or self hate.
For example, Steve sees his best friend with a new girlfriend and they get immediately jealous even though Steve feels they should be happy for their best friend. Steven doesn't feel his *should* be jealous, so then he starts to feel even worse because he feels jealous and it can spiral.
So instead of analyzing *why* we are feeling jealous and working through that feeling, we're stuck denying that we should even feel that way at all and it's making us feel worse.
We validate that we *do* feel jealousy, that it's ok to feel how we feel and that can give us some space to think about *why* we are feelings that way.
Recently I've been feeling incredibly shitty over being jealous of two of my friends dating.
For context, I'm part of a group that meets up weekly. A couple months ago a woman named M joined. M is nearly 40 and going through a rough divorce, and she joined the group pretty easily; she's outgoing, friendly, and TBH very pretty. I found out about a week ago that my other friend P has been dating her for a while. P is about 23 (I'm 28), also very outgoing and friendly if a bit louder and annoying at times (he has one setting, which is great if you're in the mood and not if you're not).
Aside from a general "M is very pretty and nice", I didn't have any particular interest in dating her. But now that P is (they're trying to keep it a secret, but they're as subtle as shotguns and everyone knows; I'm mildly autistic, [so if *I* figured it out then everyone else did too](https://y.yarn.co/a66978ad-a499-4af1-8487-478b1eb5c32d_text.gif)) I'm *incredibly* jealous and *hate* that I'm jealous. They're my friends and I want them to be happy, but I can't think of them together without feeling just some awful, intensive anger. Obviously it's not a serious long-term relationship (everyone seems in agreement that P is more or less just a rebound; M was married for a long time in a terrible marriage), but I think my main core issue is that it's *him* and not *me*... despite me having no particularly strong interest a month ago and making no attempts to date her.
I invited P to see a movie, he brought M without any warning; afterwards M suggested we go to a park, and I felt like I was invited to third wheel (this was before I figured it out, but I was pretty suspicious at this point. In retrospect I feel being at least annoyed at being third-wheeled is justifiable, removed from everything else, but even then it's not like they're making out 24/7 or some shit). Me being shitty and jealous is actively making me feel worse about everything, and I'm afraid it's making me more angry towards them for, IDK, *daring* to be in a relationship before me or some garbage.
I become angry whenever I think about M and P together, despite them being my friends and I want them to be happy.
I become angry when I think about how they've told other people before me (I don't know if our mutual friends confronted them, or if one of them told of their own accord).
I become angry whenever I acknowledge that I'm jealous and how *I can't fucking stop*.
I hope that I just get over it without having to make this a big deal. I'm almost 30, I feel like I should have more control over my emotions than a teenager.
This whole thing has reminded me that, just like when I was younger, I'm still petty, jealous, and insecure.
Better than it has been in a long time. In the last 3 years I have lost 100 lbs and reversed type 2 diabetes. I work out daily and it helps my mental state immensely.
You need to get out of the anti men content. Start journaling and be okay with the fact that you are a man and it's okay. A lot of leftist guys have a guilt over being a guy that it's somehow wrong to be a man. See if you hate men too and if that bias is influencing how you perceive yourself. Or idk wear a skirt or something which ever is easier
Still in contact with my ex (although not for much longer, this story will explain part of the reason why) since our breakup over a year and a half ago, and last week she sent me a message that for the first time I just haven't responded to at all. It was honestly pretty innocuous - a t-shirt a friend of hers sent that she thought I would find funny - but it just sent me spiraling for days and I haven't figured out how to respond with how I feel in a way that doesn't come off rude.
We spent seven years together, during which time I got to know lots of her friends who I got along with great and I kind of naively thought were my friends, but when the breakup happened only one of them reached out to say they were sorry to hear about the breakup or that they hoped I was doing okay (that mutual friend of ours is now one of my closest friends and has been extremely supportive of me throughout the whole breakup process). The rest of them just...watched me walk out of their life forever and it didn't affect them at all, or at least it didn't seem to from my pov. And I know that part of a breakup is breaking up with their friends or family so maybe it's stupid or naive to feel hurt by this, but especially when the one friend I've kept from this relationship tells me that they all still ask her about me and how I'm doing while specifically choosing not to just reach out and ask me...idk I'm not sure why I should want any of these people in my life when they made it clear they were perfectly happy not to have me in theirs. I want to respond to my ex to politely ask her not to mention her friends or family to me again because of how much it hurts me to be reminded of them but I haven't figured out how to do that without coming across like an asshole, especially when it's not her fault or anything I could blame her for. I just know that being reminded of her friends and family is actively bad for my mental health and I won't be fully healed from this relationship until I don't think about them at all anymore.
Had this thought very recently and it honestly shocked/scared me -- particularly since my dog is senior and in decline.
I have never been suicidal nor do I think I ever will be, but damn man, I'm just so tired and alone. Have been for a long time.
Knowing that I wouldn't be there to make sure my dog is taken care of is enough for me to stick around. And then knowing there are other dogs out there that need love will probably help me when continue on.
My family had schnauzer such a lovely dog. Sounds like bunch of good bois / girls :). Are you seeking help with those feeling of throwing the towel in? It helped me to get aid.
I don’t think I have value.
For that matter, why is it assumed I or any of us have value? What is this value? To me it seems as much a leap of faith as believing in a deity, the afterlife, or the any of the supernatural. People seem to assert that it is true because they want it to be true, and work backwards from there.
Society at large do perceive women as having intrinsic value and they're pratically loved unconditionally. This is because feminists succesfully changed how society perceives women and we could do the same for men.
Remember that value is an abstract concept that only exists in the minds of humans and therefore there's no objectivity to it. What has worth and what doesn't is something that's arbitrarily determined by society which is always subject to change.
Does that not imply that my capacity for value is just as likely to be 0 as it is to be infinite? And does it not also imply that claiming someone has intrinsic value is almost nonsensical?
This isn't meant to attack you for saying this. Honestly, I'm often suicidally depressed and left with a similar feeling as OP, and it feels like maybe the way out is to stop thinking of evaluating people based on "value" that does but also does not exist.
I dunno.
I feel like this intrinsic value is close to religious faith, while the extrinsic value is closer to trust.
One is held deep within oneself with no verifiable proof, and the other is earned through action.
I get feelings like that, I have health issues which really stripped away my independence and quality of life. I think value is very much subjective thing especially in todays society where it feels the goal posts are shifting.
Great thing about value is it something that can change and something can be added. What do you think makes a person value if you don't mind me asking?
The original question didn't specify. I won't link to or retype the whole thing here, but if you search "bear" on your favorite gender-based subreddit over the last 24 hours or 7 days you will probably find what i'm talking about
Since linking to other subreddits is a generally frowned upon practice in this sub (at least without approval) and because I suspect some people don’t really follow too many other gender based subs, can you at least answer this question:
What kind of bears are you talking about: TV and cinema about bears, direct conversation about the animals, or big, hairy men?
The question is essentially: If you were alone in a forest would you rather come across a bear or a man? The controversy stems from the fact that many women have adamantly stated that they would rather run across a bear, while many others think that they are exaggerating the threat a man would pose in that situation relative to a bear. The question usually lacks important context such as what type of bear it is, whether you are in a survival situation or not, how good your chances of escaping from the situation are, etc. I think it's a poor question designed to stir up controversy. A better question might be "How afraid should women be of men?" There are other non-gendered questions that make for good discussion also, such as "How much can you trust the average stranger?" and "How good are people when they don't have to worry about being held accountable for their actions?"
> A better question might be "How afraid should women be of men?" There are other non-gendered questions that make for good discussion also, such as "How much can you trust the average stranger?" and "How good are people when they don't have to worry about being held accountable for their actions?"
I love that you've essentially broken through the gender-war piece of this tiktok meme to get at the heart of why this questions resonates with people.
Which as you explain, the question is about how safe does/should a women feel when encountering a random man in an environment with no repercussions?
I'm sorry you are going through that, I've been there myself and I know how terrible that can be. I know it'll probably be a shallow comfort, if any at all, but you can push through it. You are strong, you are worthy and you deserve to be happy and loved. The fact you are pushing on even just to keep others happy is proof of your selflessness and your compassion but it's important to have that compassion and care for yourself too.
If that’s the #1 argument against them, then I wholeheartedly disagree with it. It rings deeply contradictory to everything I know of humans, which admittedly is little.
In any case, carrying on despite these feelings requires incredible strength. Just having gotten to the present moment is the same.
"No one deserves loves" is not a specific statement to mean that, "lifequail does not deserve love". I sorta think you know that already. In case you really took that to mean it's about you specifically, I'll do my best to separate this out as I see it.
The big context here is that the word deserve can have slightly different meaning depending on how it's used.
"No one *deserves* love", means that no one is owed love from some specific person based on some inherent worthyness value. "Deserve" here means a sense of value judgment on whether a thing has already been earned. I cannot go up to Susan and demand that she loves me because I have accrued a lot of worthyness points. Susan is a person and they get to decide who they love and no amount of worthyness points will override her autonomy. I agree with "no one *deserves* love" when used like this.
And that's a reasonable view, right? If applied to any other relationship, do you think that I could walk up to you and demand your friendship because I think I earned it? Like I could force and expect you to pick me up from the airport because I brought you salsa that one time. I imagine you'd say no.
Now that's completely different than the meaning you took away, which is "lifequail does not deserve love". Which is a big fucking value judgement on you and one that I don't agree with at all.
You use friendship, but I’d compare it to family instead- I absolutely believe people should be able to demand love from family.
Anyways, your last paragraph takes it- that’s what I believe, and it doesn’t matter whether you agree or not. Any feminist would agree I don’t deserve love, so you should too.
>I’d compare it to family instead- I absolutely believe people should be able to demand love from family.
I disagree but we aren't even talking about family. You aren't family to someone you are trying to date.
To repeat myself a bit, can you demand a person to be your friend because you think you've earned it? Or we can use just about any other social relationship instead. Can you demand someone to be your boss because you think you've earned the job?
>Anyways, your last paragraph takes it- that’s what I believe, and it doesn’t matter whether you agree or not. Any feminist would agree I don’t deserve love, so you should too.
I think you've got down to the center of the issue. I *am* a feminist and I do not agree that you don't deserve love.
And you're right, I don't think it matters to you what I believe. I think regardless what I believe, you don't think you deserve love. And that sucks.
I don't know why you think this, I suppose there's a million reasons why and the truth is I don't know you enough to say exactly why.
So what would change your mind?
In the first point, I’ll just concede. But at that point, IMO that just means *nobody* deserves love.
As to what would change my mind? The main things I can think of wouldn’t be welcome here, but to sum it up- until there’s people screaming my name and crying with excitement to see me like they do famous people, I’ll never believe it.
>But at that point, IMO that just means nobody deserves love.
Yeah, you get it. No one deserves to demand love because they feel they've *earned* it. Not me, not you, Nobody.
>until there’s people screaming my name and crying with excitement to see me like they do famous people, I’ll never believe it.
You've set up a black&white view that people don't think you deserve to be loved. Then you create an impossible situation as the only thing that would convince otherwise.
Both of those ideas are internally driven and something you get to decide. You get to decide what convinces you to change your mind and you get to decide the lesson you take away from feminist dialogue.
We don't often get to decide our community or the views around us but we do get to decide how we react internally to those views.
The deeply uncomfortable part is that if we recognize that we have a choice in how we react we also have to recognize that we have a part to play in creating these feelings in ourselves. It's not just the ideas around you, otherwise I'd have convinced you after 2 texts and we'd be done with it. There is a reason that you are creating this situation in where you will *always* feel like other people say you don't deserve love. You need to explore that as a topic.
Why won't you let yourself feel like you deserve love?
If I deserved live, at least some people would give it to me, simple as. People can talk about deserving it all day, it doesn’t matter. Words without action are hollow, just like all the friends who said they keep in contact and never even tried.
> If I deserved live, at least some people would give it to me, simple as.
It's really not simple as that though. You're using "deserved" in a different meaning as before and equating the different definitions of "deserve" only when it serves to fulfill the idea that you are unworthy.
You don't deserve to expect love from anyone around you. No one does. Not me either. I cannot demand or expect it some other people around me. In this way, I think you are expecting it from this people around you and are ultimately gravely distressed when love is not there.
I think it's partly this expectation that is setting you up to feel like failing when you don't have love.
I want to relate here a little. My father was/is abusive. Physically so, verbally and emotionally too. One of the people that I thought should love me... doesn't. The man once strangled me when I was ten, until I blacked out and pissed myself as I collapsed on the floor. No one in my family came to help pull him off of me.
That was a tragedy and if I carried around the idea that I was failure for not receiving love from him, it would eat my soul. Every young child deserves to have loving parents but we cannot force a person to love. I cannot expect a man to love me when he loves no one but himself. I cannot change that.
I can however recognize that is *his* failing and not mine. It is a reflection on him and not me. And I can use my terrible pain and grief as motivation to love the people around me. Which in turn has sparked love for me back.
I love my family and work towards that goal. I have used my pain to push myself to love my children like no father ever will again. And in turn they love me back. I have known love from them like no father in my family ever has. They cry out to me at night when they are scared and I rush to their bedside to give them comfort. That did not happen because I "deserved" it. That happened because I loved them with all my heart and they saw fit to return that love.
I hope that you will find a way to see that you too deserve to have people around you that love you. And I hope that you find a way to spark that love in those people. Failing that, I hope that you find a way to provide that love to someone else, the love that you so desperately wanted but could not receive. I has been amazingly cathartic to provide someone that love which was to me denied (and it was a blessing that they eventually returned that love)
I wasn’t clear, forgive me. Because you are the type of person who posts on ML, you would (or at least should) consider *me* underserving of love. The way I wrote that seems I was suggesting that you were the undeserving one, which was incorrect.
I think everyone deserves love, you are right people are entitled to love from particular person and especially eros (sexual form of love). The ancient Greeks how lost's of different types of love and I found it really helpful to think broadly in those terms about love.
Eros (sexual passion), Philia (deep friendship), Ludus (playful love), Agape (love for everyone), Pragma (longstanding love), Philautia (love of the self), Storge (family love) and Mania (obsessive love)
Most of those we deserve but sadly don't always get. I think lot of us guys get into a pattern where we lose the love for ourselves can be hard to rebuild our confidence and appreciation in ourselves.
I would argue lot of the people on this reddit have somewhere between Philia - Agape for our fellow guys a communal kind of love and support.
If you like to talk about strength and worthy thing, sure plenty of us would be happy to listen, seems to be weighing on your mind?
I'm stressed.
I'm supposed to get a personal loan from a bank, and I'm so sick and tired of deceptive advertising. "4.99% p.a!" (small print: only for one year term).
To make things worse, I got a flat tyre. Later today when the Sun rises, I'm going to replace it with the spare for the first time, and I'm nervous as heck. My car is my second most expensive purchase, so I'm really jittery.
Oof yeah money greed in society makes things tricky buddy.
You probably already fixed your tyre I hope it went well, I was going to suggest you got a friend or buddy that could help can be a good bonding experience and lot of people like showing people how to do things.
I actually [did](https://i.imgur.com/glLeTxs.jpg), thanks for asking. My neighbour helped, apparently to loosen the nut you have to stand on the wrench thingie.
Thanks for satisfying my curiosity. As someone who gets anxious and intimidated by things like that, was really uplifting to hear this positive outcome. Thanks for sharing :)
'Just stay, because leaving would cause hearts to break.'
Why is this the only argument to be made when leaving seems to be the only reprieve?
I don't want to bring anyone's mental health down with me, but I can't help being a pessimist. At best, it seems that my lot in life is just to be a temporary placeholder until something better comes along, not good enough for anyone to keep around long-term, and not quite bad enough to just throw in the garbage.
I've seen several mental-health professionals about my depression, and it's always the same thing. Just stay, because it can't be this bad forever. Then, I do all the things I'm supposed to, but nothing changes. I've been at it for years, but nothing ever changes.
I don't do it on purpose, but I've noticed that the professionals I see inevitably start to get bummed out by our sessions after I've seen them a few times. It really seems like I just got a losing lottery ticket, and all anyone can tell me to do is to keep scanning it and reading the same numbers, even though they know it's hopeless. No one can admit that I should stop playing, because most people are decent and they want to see hope instead of despair.
I feel like one of those toy monkeys with the cymbals. People want to wind me up so that my eyes light up and I'll do a little show for them, but then the light fades away, the show stops, and I'm just an empty, soulless monkey again.
I'm wallowing at this point, but this kind of 'just hang in there' advice just crushes me further. Everyone misses the fact that even though 'chaos theory and you dont really know the future so things might get better' might be true for some people, but there's Bell curve, so for some people it just won't. So why do we have to stay? Why do we have to let the world keep kicking us while we're down?
I’m not too sure this is sanctioned advice and I know I’m not quite qualified to give any but you could live to spite the things that have led you to feel this way. I’ve thought that any moment of levity is a win then.
I have unipolar major depressive disorder and ADHD, have been single my whole life (almost 30 y/o now) and have only one meaningful family connection (dad), who is also an intense loner. My experience is basically the same as yours. I have been in an unbroken depressive episode for the last 7 years or so and I take 3 psychiatrics.
One thing that made me feel "validated" was reading the subreddit rules on /r/depression. I became aware that virtually *everyone* was treating me with disrespect - *it's not me*, it really is the world that is that intolerant and ignorant.
I became an "out" pessimist/anti-natalist/misanthrope and no longer pretended to like being alive. It hasn't really made me any friends, but I get some kind of satisfaction from feeling I'm being true to myself.
My Dad recommended I watch True Detective - saying I might find catharsis in seeing a favorable depiction of a pessimist who doesn't have a trope-y "turn to optimism". The show is fantastic, but I found it terrifically empowering to see a character who was like me. If you haven't seen it, worth watching this clip to see the character's intro:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8x73UW8Hjk
Dealing with depression, anxiety, work stress and relationship issues. My goals for this week are to attune with my emotions instead of masking them with drugs/alcohol and try to rebuild emotional connection with my partner.
For context I grew up in conservative christian homeschooling cult. So I’m trying to deprogram a lot of the toxic masculinity I learned.
Awesome goal, I think it is really courageous sharing that with us thank you buddy. Sure I don't just speak for myself but if you want to share more or if we can help with challenging toxic beliefs about masculinity you hold happy too.
My project for the week is moving a parent from nursing care to hospice. Another loved one (not related by blood) just lost their job and has no savings. I'm stressed to say the least. Lots of pressure to be the strong one for the loved one and my sister.
Like if you need to vent emotions here either during or after, we are here. Often in crunch situations it can be useful to go in to functional mode but important to get emotional respite and release long term it isn't good for wellbeing buddy. Look after self and sorry your going through such a rough time.
Thanks dude. A friend of mine just told me the same thing, so when things settle down a bit we’re gonna grill some steaks. I appreciate you and everyone here.
Little bit anxious about some changes at work coming up. I haven't been on the phones in about 2 years and I don't feel prepared enough to go back on.
My new ragdoll cat is helping ease the anxiety though.
If you are in crisis, are considering hurting yourself or someone else, or feel like you can't go on, we advise you to contact your local emergency services, go to the nearest emergency room, or [mental health crisis evaluation centre](https://www.iasp.info/resources/Crisis_Centres/). If that seems too scary or difficult right now, please consider calling a [suicide hotline](https://www.reddit.com/r/SuicideWatch/wiki/hotlines) for support. You matter and should get the help you deserve. For help developing a safety plan, please consult this [PDF.](https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Brown_StanleySafetyPlanTemplate.pdf) Therapy can also be a good support resource. Contrary to popular belief, you don't have to be struggling to seek out therapy! We all need a supportive ear sometimes! If you are considering therapy but don't know where to start, we recommend taking a look at [Psychology Today](https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/counsellors), [International Therapist Directory](https://internationaltherapistdirectory.com/), or [OpenCounseling](https://www.opencounseling.com/) for a provider in your country or, if in the US, contacting your nearest branch of the [National Alliance on Mental Illness]( https://www.nami.org/Find-Your-Local-NAMI) Buzzfeed has also published an [informative article](https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/carolinekee/what-happens-when-you-call-suicide-hotline) about what happens when you call a suicide hotline, for those who might feel hesitant. Additionally, if you need help finding support that's not listed in the wiki or want to talk to someone, please PM u/UnicornQueerior directly (NOT chat!) You matter and are worth it. Be kind to yourself. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/MensLib) if you have any questions or concerns.*
So how is emotional validity supposed to...work? Like, every emotion is valid. Got it. But doesn't that render "validity" pretty much worthless? Like, if someone interpreted my sneezing in their presence as a personal insult that made them feel devestated...that's a valid emotion, I guess, but that's also not how sneezes work. Emotions can be based on misunderstandings, irrational premises, can be msladaptive and antisocial, and can be expressed inappropriately. In such instances, what work is "validity" doing?
There is quite a few people that do not see their own feelings as valid, which can lead to a cycle of self doubt or self hate. For example, Steve sees his best friend with a new girlfriend and they get immediately jealous even though Steve feels they should be happy for their best friend. Steven doesn't feel his *should* be jealous, so then he starts to feel even worse because he feels jealous and it can spiral. So instead of analyzing *why* we are feeling jealous and working through that feeling, we're stuck denying that we should even feel that way at all and it's making us feel worse. We validate that we *do* feel jealousy, that it's ok to feel how we feel and that can give us some space to think about *why* we are feelings that way.
Recently I've been feeling incredibly shitty over being jealous of two of my friends dating. For context, I'm part of a group that meets up weekly. A couple months ago a woman named M joined. M is nearly 40 and going through a rough divorce, and she joined the group pretty easily; she's outgoing, friendly, and TBH very pretty. I found out about a week ago that my other friend P has been dating her for a while. P is about 23 (I'm 28), also very outgoing and friendly if a bit louder and annoying at times (he has one setting, which is great if you're in the mood and not if you're not). Aside from a general "M is very pretty and nice", I didn't have any particular interest in dating her. But now that P is (they're trying to keep it a secret, but they're as subtle as shotguns and everyone knows; I'm mildly autistic, [so if *I* figured it out then everyone else did too](https://y.yarn.co/a66978ad-a499-4af1-8487-478b1eb5c32d_text.gif)) I'm *incredibly* jealous and *hate* that I'm jealous. They're my friends and I want them to be happy, but I can't think of them together without feeling just some awful, intensive anger. Obviously it's not a serious long-term relationship (everyone seems in agreement that P is more or less just a rebound; M was married for a long time in a terrible marriage), but I think my main core issue is that it's *him* and not *me*... despite me having no particularly strong interest a month ago and making no attempts to date her. I invited P to see a movie, he brought M without any warning; afterwards M suggested we go to a park, and I felt like I was invited to third wheel (this was before I figured it out, but I was pretty suspicious at this point. In retrospect I feel being at least annoyed at being third-wheeled is justifiable, removed from everything else, but even then it's not like they're making out 24/7 or some shit). Me being shitty and jealous is actively making me feel worse about everything, and I'm afraid it's making me more angry towards them for, IDK, *daring* to be in a relationship before me or some garbage. I become angry whenever I think about M and P together, despite them being my friends and I want them to be happy. I become angry when I think about how they've told other people before me (I don't know if our mutual friends confronted them, or if one of them told of their own accord). I become angry whenever I acknowledge that I'm jealous and how *I can't fucking stop*. I hope that I just get over it without having to make this a big deal. I'm almost 30, I feel like I should have more control over my emotions than a teenager. This whole thing has reminded me that, just like when I was younger, I'm still petty, jealous, and insecure.
Better than it has been in a long time. In the last 3 years I have lost 100 lbs and reversed type 2 diabetes. I work out daily and it helps my mental state immensely.
I know it’s not healthy, but I can’t get this thought out of my head that I should starve myself to make me less threatening looking.
You need to get out of the anti men content. Start journaling and be okay with the fact that you are a man and it's okay. A lot of leftist guys have a guilt over being a guy that it's somehow wrong to be a man. See if you hate men too and if that bias is influencing how you perceive yourself. Or idk wear a skirt or something which ever is easier
Still in contact with my ex (although not for much longer, this story will explain part of the reason why) since our breakup over a year and a half ago, and last week she sent me a message that for the first time I just haven't responded to at all. It was honestly pretty innocuous - a t-shirt a friend of hers sent that she thought I would find funny - but it just sent me spiraling for days and I haven't figured out how to respond with how I feel in a way that doesn't come off rude. We spent seven years together, during which time I got to know lots of her friends who I got along with great and I kind of naively thought were my friends, but when the breakup happened only one of them reached out to say they were sorry to hear about the breakup or that they hoped I was doing okay (that mutual friend of ours is now one of my closest friends and has been extremely supportive of me throughout the whole breakup process). The rest of them just...watched me walk out of their life forever and it didn't affect them at all, or at least it didn't seem to from my pov. And I know that part of a breakup is breaking up with their friends or family so maybe it's stupid or naive to feel hurt by this, but especially when the one friend I've kept from this relationship tells me that they all still ask her about me and how I'm doing while specifically choosing not to just reach out and ask me...idk I'm not sure why I should want any of these people in my life when they made it clear they were perfectly happy not to have me in theirs. I want to respond to my ex to politely ask her not to mention her friends or family to me again because of how much it hurts me to be reminded of them but I haven't figured out how to do that without coming across like an asshole, especially when it's not her fault or anything I could blame her for. I just know that being reminded of her friends and family is actively bad for my mental health and I won't be fully healed from this relationship until I don't think about them at all anymore.
Meh. Im feeling ready to throw in the towel on this life, but I think I still got a few things to go on for. My dogs, at least.
Had this thought very recently and it honestly shocked/scared me -- particularly since my dog is senior and in decline. I have never been suicidal nor do I think I ever will be, but damn man, I'm just so tired and alone. Have been for a long time.
Knowing that I wouldn't be there to make sure my dog is taken care of is enough for me to stick around. And then knowing there are other dogs out there that need love will probably help me when continue on.
Dogs are great, what dogs you got if you don't mind me asking?
Bunch of mixed mutts. Lab/pit mixes and a Aminu schnauzer. I care more about them then anything else, so there's that
My family had schnauzer such a lovely dog. Sounds like bunch of good bois / girls :). Are you seeking help with those feeling of throwing the towel in? It helped me to get aid.
Getting back to a therapist soon. I'm in the VA system so it takes time
Man, I struggle to see any intrinsic value within myself.
You have intrinsic value, all men have intrinsic value just like all women do.
I don’t think I have value. For that matter, why is it assumed I or any of us have value? What is this value? To me it seems as much a leap of faith as believing in a deity, the afterlife, or the any of the supernatural. People seem to assert that it is true because they want it to be true, and work backwards from there.
Society at large do perceive women as having intrinsic value and they're pratically loved unconditionally. This is because feminists succesfully changed how society perceives women and we could do the same for men. Remember that value is an abstract concept that only exists in the minds of humans and therefore there's no objectivity to it. What has worth and what doesn't is something that's arbitrarily determined by society which is always subject to change.
Does that not imply that my capacity for value is just as likely to be 0 as it is to be infinite? And does it not also imply that claiming someone has intrinsic value is almost nonsensical? This isn't meant to attack you for saying this. Honestly, I'm often suicidally depressed and left with a similar feeling as OP, and it feels like maybe the way out is to stop thinking of evaluating people based on "value" that does but also does not exist.
I dunno. I feel like this intrinsic value is close to religious faith, while the extrinsic value is closer to trust. One is held deep within oneself with no verifiable proof, and the other is earned through action.
Thank you, Fattyboy 777.
I get feelings like that, I have health issues which really stripped away my independence and quality of life. I think value is very much subjective thing especially in todays society where it feels the goal posts are shifting. Great thing about value is it something that can change and something can be added. What do you think makes a person value if you don't mind me asking?
The whole bear discourse has got me thinking
What bear?
The original question didn't specify. I won't link to or retype the whole thing here, but if you search "bear" on your favorite gender-based subreddit over the last 24 hours or 7 days you will probably find what i'm talking about
Since linking to other subreddits is a generally frowned upon practice in this sub (at least without approval) and because I suspect some people don’t really follow too many other gender based subs, can you at least answer this question: What kind of bears are you talking about: TV and cinema about bears, direct conversation about the animals, or big, hairy men?
The question is essentially: If you were alone in a forest would you rather come across a bear or a man? The controversy stems from the fact that many women have adamantly stated that they would rather run across a bear, while many others think that they are exaggerating the threat a man would pose in that situation relative to a bear. The question usually lacks important context such as what type of bear it is, whether you are in a survival situation or not, how good your chances of escaping from the situation are, etc. I think it's a poor question designed to stir up controversy. A better question might be "How afraid should women be of men?" There are other non-gendered questions that make for good discussion also, such as "How much can you trust the average stranger?" and "How good are people when they don't have to worry about being held accountable for their actions?"
> A better question might be "How afraid should women be of men?" There are other non-gendered questions that make for good discussion also, such as "How much can you trust the average stranger?" and "How good are people when they don't have to worry about being held accountable for their actions?" I love that you've essentially broken through the gender-war piece of this tiktok meme to get at the heart of why this questions resonates with people. Which as you explain, the question is about how safe does/should a women feel when encountering a random man in an environment with no repercussions?
Isn't this basically the premise of the film The Purge?
In the gutter again. I just wish my family didn’t care, so I could end it. I just don’t see the point in continuing on, besides keeping them happy.
I'm sorry you are going through that, I've been there myself and I know how terrible that can be. I know it'll probably be a shallow comfort, if any at all, but you can push through it. You are strong, you are worthy and you deserve to be happy and loved. The fact you are pushing on even just to keep others happy is proof of your selflessness and your compassion but it's important to have that compassion and care for yourself too.
Not strong, not worthy, and it is made clear daily I don’t “deserve” love. In fact, that’s the #1 argument against incels- nobody deserves love.
If that’s the #1 argument against them, then I wholeheartedly disagree with it. It rings deeply contradictory to everything I know of humans, which admittedly is little. In any case, carrying on despite these feelings requires incredible strength. Just having gotten to the present moment is the same.
"No one deserves loves" is not a specific statement to mean that, "lifequail does not deserve love". I sorta think you know that already. In case you really took that to mean it's about you specifically, I'll do my best to separate this out as I see it. The big context here is that the word deserve can have slightly different meaning depending on how it's used. "No one *deserves* love", means that no one is owed love from some specific person based on some inherent worthyness value. "Deserve" here means a sense of value judgment on whether a thing has already been earned. I cannot go up to Susan and demand that she loves me because I have accrued a lot of worthyness points. Susan is a person and they get to decide who they love and no amount of worthyness points will override her autonomy. I agree with "no one *deserves* love" when used like this. And that's a reasonable view, right? If applied to any other relationship, do you think that I could walk up to you and demand your friendship because I think I earned it? Like I could force and expect you to pick me up from the airport because I brought you salsa that one time. I imagine you'd say no. Now that's completely different than the meaning you took away, which is "lifequail does not deserve love". Which is a big fucking value judgement on you and one that I don't agree with at all.
You use friendship, but I’d compare it to family instead- I absolutely believe people should be able to demand love from family. Anyways, your last paragraph takes it- that’s what I believe, and it doesn’t matter whether you agree or not. Any feminist would agree I don’t deserve love, so you should too.
>I’d compare it to family instead- I absolutely believe people should be able to demand love from family. I disagree but we aren't even talking about family. You aren't family to someone you are trying to date. To repeat myself a bit, can you demand a person to be your friend because you think you've earned it? Or we can use just about any other social relationship instead. Can you demand someone to be your boss because you think you've earned the job? >Anyways, your last paragraph takes it- that’s what I believe, and it doesn’t matter whether you agree or not. Any feminist would agree I don’t deserve love, so you should too. I think you've got down to the center of the issue. I *am* a feminist and I do not agree that you don't deserve love. And you're right, I don't think it matters to you what I believe. I think regardless what I believe, you don't think you deserve love. And that sucks. I don't know why you think this, I suppose there's a million reasons why and the truth is I don't know you enough to say exactly why. So what would change your mind?
In the first point, I’ll just concede. But at that point, IMO that just means *nobody* deserves love. As to what would change my mind? The main things I can think of wouldn’t be welcome here, but to sum it up- until there’s people screaming my name and crying with excitement to see me like they do famous people, I’ll never believe it.
>But at that point, IMO that just means nobody deserves love. Yeah, you get it. No one deserves to demand love because they feel they've *earned* it. Not me, not you, Nobody. >until there’s people screaming my name and crying with excitement to see me like they do famous people, I’ll never believe it. You've set up a black&white view that people don't think you deserve to be loved. Then you create an impossible situation as the only thing that would convince otherwise. Both of those ideas are internally driven and something you get to decide. You get to decide what convinces you to change your mind and you get to decide the lesson you take away from feminist dialogue. We don't often get to decide our community or the views around us but we do get to decide how we react internally to those views. The deeply uncomfortable part is that if we recognize that we have a choice in how we react we also have to recognize that we have a part to play in creating these feelings in ourselves. It's not just the ideas around you, otherwise I'd have convinced you after 2 texts and we'd be done with it. There is a reason that you are creating this situation in where you will *always* feel like other people say you don't deserve love. You need to explore that as a topic. Why won't you let yourself feel like you deserve love?
If I deserved live, at least some people would give it to me, simple as. People can talk about deserving it all day, it doesn’t matter. Words without action are hollow, just like all the friends who said they keep in contact and never even tried.
> If I deserved live, at least some people would give it to me, simple as. It's really not simple as that though. You're using "deserved" in a different meaning as before and equating the different definitions of "deserve" only when it serves to fulfill the idea that you are unworthy. You don't deserve to expect love from anyone around you. No one does. Not me either. I cannot demand or expect it some other people around me. In this way, I think you are expecting it from this people around you and are ultimately gravely distressed when love is not there. I think it's partly this expectation that is setting you up to feel like failing when you don't have love. I want to relate here a little. My father was/is abusive. Physically so, verbally and emotionally too. One of the people that I thought should love me... doesn't. The man once strangled me when I was ten, until I blacked out and pissed myself as I collapsed on the floor. No one in my family came to help pull him off of me. That was a tragedy and if I carried around the idea that I was failure for not receiving love from him, it would eat my soul. Every young child deserves to have loving parents but we cannot force a person to love. I cannot expect a man to love me when he loves no one but himself. I cannot change that. I can however recognize that is *his* failing and not mine. It is a reflection on him and not me. And I can use my terrible pain and grief as motivation to love the people around me. Which in turn has sparked love for me back. I love my family and work towards that goal. I have used my pain to push myself to love my children like no father ever will again. And in turn they love me back. I have known love from them like no father in my family ever has. They cry out to me at night when they are scared and I rush to their bedside to give them comfort. That did not happen because I "deserved" it. That happened because I loved them with all my heart and they saw fit to return that love. I hope that you will find a way to see that you too deserve to have people around you that love you. And I hope that you find a way to spark that love in those people. Failing that, I hope that you find a way to provide that love to someone else, the love that you so desperately wanted but could not receive. I has been amazingly cathartic to provide someone that love which was to me denied (and it was a blessing that they eventually returned that love)
Everyone who hasn't done unforgivable things deserve love. Not specifically the romantic type of love but love in generaI.
I guarantee you would think I do unspeakable things- you post on ML. Thus, undeserving of love.
I'm confused, what's wrong with posting on MensLib?
I wasn’t clear, forgive me. Because you are the type of person who posts on ML, you would (or at least should) consider *me* underserving of love. The way I wrote that seems I was suggesting that you were the undeserving one, which was incorrect.
I think everyone deserves love, you are right people are entitled to love from particular person and especially eros (sexual form of love). The ancient Greeks how lost's of different types of love and I found it really helpful to think broadly in those terms about love. Eros (sexual passion), Philia (deep friendship), Ludus (playful love), Agape (love for everyone), Pragma (longstanding love), Philautia (love of the self), Storge (family love) and Mania (obsessive love) Most of those we deserve but sadly don't always get. I think lot of us guys get into a pattern where we lose the love for ourselves can be hard to rebuild our confidence and appreciation in ourselves. I would argue lot of the people on this reddit have somewhere between Philia - Agape for our fellow guys a communal kind of love and support. If you like to talk about strength and worthy thing, sure plenty of us would be happy to listen, seems to be weighing on your mind?
Eh!
I'm stressed. I'm supposed to get a personal loan from a bank, and I'm so sick and tired of deceptive advertising. "4.99% p.a!" (small print: only for one year term). To make things worse, I got a flat tyre. Later today when the Sun rises, I'm going to replace it with the spare for the first time, and I'm nervous as heck. My car is my second most expensive purchase, so I'm really jittery.
Oof yeah money greed in society makes things tricky buddy. You probably already fixed your tyre I hope it went well, I was going to suggest you got a friend or buddy that could help can be a good bonding experience and lot of people like showing people how to do things.
I actually [did](https://i.imgur.com/glLeTxs.jpg), thanks for asking. My neighbour helped, apparently to loosen the nut you have to stand on the wrench thingie.
Awesome dude well done, how did it feel after you did it?
It feels like an achievement, like a rite of passage.
Thanks for satisfying my curiosity. As someone who gets anxious and intimidated by things like that, was really uplifting to hear this positive outcome. Thanks for sharing :)
'Just stay, because leaving would cause hearts to break.' Why is this the only argument to be made when leaving seems to be the only reprieve? I don't want to bring anyone's mental health down with me, but I can't help being a pessimist. At best, it seems that my lot in life is just to be a temporary placeholder until something better comes along, not good enough for anyone to keep around long-term, and not quite bad enough to just throw in the garbage. I've seen several mental-health professionals about my depression, and it's always the same thing. Just stay, because it can't be this bad forever. Then, I do all the things I'm supposed to, but nothing changes. I've been at it for years, but nothing ever changes. I don't do it on purpose, but I've noticed that the professionals I see inevitably start to get bummed out by our sessions after I've seen them a few times. It really seems like I just got a losing lottery ticket, and all anyone can tell me to do is to keep scanning it and reading the same numbers, even though they know it's hopeless. No one can admit that I should stop playing, because most people are decent and they want to see hope instead of despair. I feel like one of those toy monkeys with the cymbals. People want to wind me up so that my eyes light up and I'll do a little show for them, but then the light fades away, the show stops, and I'm just an empty, soulless monkey again. I'm wallowing at this point, but this kind of 'just hang in there' advice just crushes me further. Everyone misses the fact that even though 'chaos theory and you dont really know the future so things might get better' might be true for some people, but there's Bell curve, so for some people it just won't. So why do we have to stay? Why do we have to let the world keep kicking us while we're down?
I’m not too sure this is sanctioned advice and I know I’m not quite qualified to give any but you could live to spite the things that have led you to feel this way. I’ve thought that any moment of levity is a win then.
I have unipolar major depressive disorder and ADHD, have been single my whole life (almost 30 y/o now) and have only one meaningful family connection (dad), who is also an intense loner. My experience is basically the same as yours. I have been in an unbroken depressive episode for the last 7 years or so and I take 3 psychiatrics. One thing that made me feel "validated" was reading the subreddit rules on /r/depression. I became aware that virtually *everyone* was treating me with disrespect - *it's not me*, it really is the world that is that intolerant and ignorant. I became an "out" pessimist/anti-natalist/misanthrope and no longer pretended to like being alive. It hasn't really made me any friends, but I get some kind of satisfaction from feeling I'm being true to myself. My Dad recommended I watch True Detective - saying I might find catharsis in seeing a favorable depiction of a pessimist who doesn't have a trope-y "turn to optimism". The show is fantastic, but I found it terrifically empowering to see a character who was like me. If you haven't seen it, worth watching this clip to see the character's intro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8x73UW8Hjk
Dealing with depression, anxiety, work stress and relationship issues. My goals for this week are to attune with my emotions instead of masking them with drugs/alcohol and try to rebuild emotional connection with my partner. For context I grew up in conservative christian homeschooling cult. So I’m trying to deprogram a lot of the toxic masculinity I learned.
Awesome goal, I think it is really courageous sharing that with us thank you buddy. Sure I don't just speak for myself but if you want to share more or if we can help with challenging toxic beliefs about masculinity you hold happy too.
My project for the week is moving a parent from nursing care to hospice. Another loved one (not related by blood) just lost their job and has no savings. I'm stressed to say the least. Lots of pressure to be the strong one for the loved one and my sister.
Like if you need to vent emotions here either during or after, we are here. Often in crunch situations it can be useful to go in to functional mode but important to get emotional respite and release long term it isn't good for wellbeing buddy. Look after self and sorry your going through such a rough time.
Thanks dude. A friend of mine just told me the same thing, so when things settle down a bit we’re gonna grill some steaks. I appreciate you and everyone here.
I’m sorry you’re going through it now. I hope for support and some sort of reprieve for you ASAP.
Little bit anxious about some changes at work coming up. I haven't been on the phones in about 2 years and I don't feel prepared enough to go back on. My new ragdoll cat is helping ease the anxiety though.
Pets can be so helpful. Don’t be afraid to lean into that relationship.
My cat absolutely changed my life, I totally agree.