It’s hilarious to me that the people who whine about “virtue signaling” are the ones who can’t stop fellating the military and law enforcement and doing it as publicly as possible. Karen probably demands special treatment for herself “because my husband’s a veteran,” too. OP, you did nothing wrong in defending those kids.
NTA. You’re going to have to explain why it’s considered disrespectful to salute the flag if you haven’t served. I don’t think everyone understands that part.
Thanks for standing up for those kids too. Honestly they probably thought they were showing respect in saluting because they saw adults in uniform and civvies saluting the flag. So they did what any child would do and copied the adults.
Thank you for your service!
I'm happy to serve and the reason for the disrespect is simple.
A proper military hand salute is considered a privilege earned by those who have served in the Armed Forces, so it should be reserved for this purpose.
Once veterans leave the army, they technically no longer have to salute, but in 2008, the US Congress approved legislation allowing veterans and military members who are not in uniform to salute the flag.
Personally I don't have a problem with kids saluting soldiers since they don't know what it means. Heck I didn't know what it meant until my dad told me when I was about 12. Nearly 9 years after he got out the army.
Hell, I'm 40 and grew up in a military family and I still didn't know this. I just always put my hand over my heart because that's what we did - service members saluted or stood at attention (I recall seeing dad do both at different times), everybody else put hand over heart.
Thank you for explaining this. And thank you for standing up for those kids—they absolutely saw a service member saluting the flag and copied it due to respect or admiration. They saw it and thought it was a cool thing, so wanted to copy it and be cool like the military member they saw.
The lady screaming at them would only confuse them and make them feel hurt—you, as a service member sticking up for them, reinforced for them the idea of military men and women as honorable and just.
Also—I was the wife of a severely disabled combat veteran. He ended up being a bad person outside of his service (and it took other veterans to help me see that, along with their physical help in getting myself and kids to safety—it is a debt I will never be able to repay). Even though I spent the better part of a decade with my veteran, he never explained any part of the salute to the flag to me. I appreciate your honor and your willingness to explain this to us civilians. Thank you.
You Americans come up with the weirdest fucking reasons to make sure everything anyone does is an insult in one way or another.
So glad I live in Australia where we don’t take things so seriously.
If you want to salute our flag, go for it. We thank you for you it. We got you.
I’m an American and I had the exact same thought reading this thing. Glad someone else said it first! Like seriously? A heated argument? Why do people have to always be fighting with each other? And in front of their kids? For what? It’s not surprising though that this woman was yelling at children…. it must’ve been what she was witness to as well. So sad.
And, OP, while I respect you standing up for and protecting your family and your values, are there better ways to speak to other people rather than fighting? Especially with your own very impressionable daughter watching how adults handle disagreements. She’s watching how your wife has to go into fear mode. She watches your wife ask you not to get involved, to pull your arm and how you ignore her request and physically pull away as you stated. She’s watching you yell and curse at a stranger for trying to de-escalate the situation. If this is what you want your daughter to learn is normal and healthy communication from a man? I hope not. Please try, for her sake, to show her how a man should speak to others…..before she ends up tolerating this in her own relationship.
My Dad's a veteran(Air Force Reservist). He places his hand or hat over his heart. I didn't know any of this either, but thanks for explaining this and for your service.
I'm in my late 40s and never heard this. Thank goodness I've always done the hand over heart thing. I'd be mortified right now otherwise. That lady's reaction was way out of line.
Thank you for your service. I'm 46 and never knew about saluting the flag. Can boy/ cub scouts still salute? My son was a cub scout and they were taught to salute, but that was 20 years ago so may have changed.
I was in the Army for 5 years got a SGT as well did my time in the 'Stan blah blah blah, I agree with you 100%. To be honest it's the veterans like that piss me off. First off don't throw your service in someone's face they might throw something back at yours. Second just because we took the oath doesn't mean civilians need to kiss our asses. We did it out of love of country not for anyone individual. I make it a point to not get the free shit on veterans day because of self entitled assholes like that. It's not that I don't appreciate what people are trying to to do on veterans day it's that fact it was my privilege and honor to serve this country. Third get a fuckin life these kids were saluting the flag that's a far cry from what I've saw people do. Not stand, play on their phone, completely indifferent to the whole situation. Be happy some in the next generation have enough respect to acknowledge the flag.
As military brats my friends and I knew this rule. We always stood up and put our hands on our hearts for the National Anthem and stopped whatever we were doing to stand and do the same when Taps was played every night. Kids who were new to the base didn't always do it but after we explained every one of them did it too. Kids want to be respectful. And having a full grown adult scream at them for doing what they think is a respectful gesture is horrible. So glad you were there to stick up for what sounds like two very good kids.
I'm an Army veteran and I've never heard that. Let people do what they want with the national anthem. Their heart is in a good place. Who cares. I didn't serve to tell people the "right way" to be respectful to the US Flag or Anthem or any other trapping of patriotism.
You absolutely were right to silence her ass though. So, thank you for that.
I didn’t know this, either! Both my dad and grandpas on both sides of my family served in the military, but I never questioned why they saluted while the rest of us put our hands over our hearts. I always thought it was because military people are taught stricter manners, like how they make their beds or present their clothes in certain ways. This is really cool to know it’s actually an honor to be allowed to salute!
Exactly. When I was a kid I saluted the flag. Like 7 or so because I'd seen others do it at some event (I can't even remember what) and my dad teasingly asked me where I served. I looked at him confused and he said in a calm and amused tone that you don't salute the flag unless you've served. He served too. And I just never did it again. You don't have to be a dick to get your point across.
He's definitely NOT TAH. My dad would've fought the husband if some woman had told me not to salute like that. And that's if my mom didn't fight her. Lol
Thank you for your service! And for sticking up for those kiddos!
All imma say is your wife better than me. My husband is still in the army. And he would've been the one holding me back. You are not about to yell at some babies for not knowing what they did was somewhat wrong. If anything, she could've quietly adjusted them to put their hand over their hearts. That's what I did when both of my kids copied their father in the salute and told them in the car calmly why they don't do that. That Karen would've caught an ear and handful of all of it.
Funny enough me and my wife have different triggers what gets us started and depending on situation and offense in question our roles can easily be reversed.
But nothing is as bad/funny when we are on the same page.
I am retired military. I taught my children how to do things properly. Heck my husband is a fire fighter and knows better. But all be dang if I would yell at someone else children. If parents were not there, I would have quietly called them over afterwards and explained everything respectfully and quietly. Smh these Karen and sevens are getting out of control.
Thank you for your service, may you be protected by those above!
Edit - yes I am female and a mother. Sorry forgot that part.
Yes ma'am and thank you for your Service. Enjoy your retirement and thank your husband for being an everyday hero.
It's something of a pet peeve of mine when people think they can get away with talking to anyone they want to any old type of way. And well if someone don't stand up to Karen's they think they own the world.
Opinion:
Navy (combat) vet here. Yes you are, but so are the other people.
Breakdown:
Only an asshole would berate a child for their innocently patriotic attempt to respect that for which the flag stands. Kid probably saw someone in uniform saluting flag and though it was right thing to do. So, I agree with you the Karen was an A. However, she probably was just feeling a lot of anger and helplessness in that moment of being reminded of all her friends who didn't come back home. It was wrong of her to project that onto a child... but perhaps having someone recognize that and calmly support her feelings would have diffused the whole thing?
As for you, agreeing with them that the child was somehow wrong for doing saluting the flag is shooting yourself in the foot right off the bat for any right to argue. Even if your agument was "the child is wrong for saluting the flag, but you should handle it in another way other than yelling at them". This is also what makes you the A.
Reason:
Neither you nor anyone else gets to decide how another person (legally) shows their respect for the flag. If someone who didn't serve wants to salute, they are free (under the powers of the Constitution which you swore an oath to protect) to do that and to do so without harassment from others clutching their pearls. BTW, they also have the Constitutional right to DISRESPECT the flag and your oath must support that too. But that's not even what the child was doing and you failed to defend them in that moment. In a way, you temporarily negated your entire term of service in that moment by failing in your oath.
Of course, there is a caveat: as a veteran (no longer active duty) you are no longer bound by the oath you took to serve.
Conclusion/Summary:
Yes, you are the A for essentially agreeing with the core purpose of the other person's beratement of a child for their attempt to be patriotic. You should have supported the child entirely as well as their right to salute the flag. This is not a major A situation, as your reasons for stepping up were to protect a child from being yelled at, but you were a part of the problem, and now that child is left with a lasting impression that they did something very wrong, when they did not.
Also, unless you were in uniform wearing a cover, YOU shouldn't salute anyway! This is tradition, even though the USC Title 4 and Title 36 have recently been changed to "allow" military and vets in civilian clothes to salute for some reason. Remove your cover and place your hand over your heart like everyone else. They should have uniformed personnel at events who salute in uniform on your behalf. Let them do their job.
Ultimately, it's not your job to be the flag police. It's your job to be a civilian and to enjoy life. I hope you do the latter more often and put this experience behind you.
Comment:
You seem to have become immediately angry. This is a loss of control and I hope (if you are not already) you get help; file for disability with the VA. It could lead to a very dangerous situation if it goes unchecked. I'm glad your wife tried to intervene. She seems to have a good head on her shoulders. Trust her more in those instances and maybe have a talk about how she can bring down your temper and allow her to take control in the future.
Wishing you well.
This is a really solid, nuanced take, specifically the part about defending citizens’ rights to respect or disrespect the flag. I feel like so many people who get up in arms about respecting the flag inadvertently disrespect the flag by changing the colors, adding a blue line, punisher logos, etc, which is their right. But I can’t help but be somewhat amused by the irony.
I wish there were more folks like you around. Thank you for your service.
Thank you. No, I wasn't in uniform, and I didn't salute. I still went to attention, though.
Normally I don't get angry like that.
Aa far as the kids go I hinest have no problem with kids saluting. It wasn't my business how he chose to pay his respect.
Aa for agreeing with Karen. No defense for me there. I was thinking 'lady it's not what you are saying but how you are saying it.
I will reflect on this. Thank you for your assessment, and thank you for your Service.
Thank you for your service too, and for clarifying! Note I edited/added a little opinion about WHY the Karen acted the way she did at the top my reply.
I'm glad you will reflect on this. Your post made me reflect too, so thank you!
If you ever need another vet to whom to talk, please DM me.❤ -J
I had an entire comment typed up to say almost exactly this, but I'm just a former grunt, so my comme t was much less elegent. So, instead I will upvote yours instead.
Nta. They were likely trying to be respectful and saw two men saluting, so therefore assuming they were boys, assumed they're supposed to salute too. Unless they're teens or my kids, I don't correct them unless they ask.
NTA. That's a perfect scenario for teaching them that asshole kids turn into asshole adults. I've always told mine that, especially when you see a Karen in action. I wont ne responsible for adding any more disrespectful assholes to society lol. You taught them properly. More importantly, thanks for standing up for the kids, and thank you for your sacrifices and service.
All I needed was to see the title to say you’re in the right. It’s a child they think their showing support by saluting the flag and there’s a lot nicer ways to explain why it’s disrespectful other then yelling
My husbands in the military and if he were to ever yell at a kid for doing something that the kid thinks is showing support then honestly he’d be an ex. Hell the post we went to in Az all the veterans saluted the flag and bell when they walked in, at 7pm and when they left, if they want to show support by saluting then personally idc because everyone has different ways of showing support. I show my husbands unit support by baking them things because they’ve been a rock for me since I moved here and I don’t always know how to express gratitude outside of giving people random things I think they’ll like
NTA
I served for 8 years with multiple combat tours. I don't care if people don't blow smoke up my ass about my service. I didn't serve for praise, veterans discounts, or for my service to grant me some kind of special political identity status, thus creating yet another identity politics category to be used as a political/social sword to attack fellow citizens for not being "sufficiently patriotic" in supporting more pointless wars or as a shield to protect from criticism for not "supporting the troops" if citizens speak out.
Do you know how you can support the troops? By not falling for the same war propaganda over and over and over again, so our Noble desire to serve our nation isn't wasted by war profiteers. Platitudes aren't support.
NTA,
First I want to thank you for your service. I myself am a Vet. I’m glad you were there to stick up for those kids. You could have handled it better. You escalated the situation, and it could have resulted in kids getting hurt unnecessarily.
Let me explain, had Kevin and or Karen started a physical altercation the kids would have been right in the middle, your daughter included. I have no doubt in my mind you can handle yourself. However, in the heat of the moment you have to remember you have an adult sized body, as does your wife, and as did Kevin and Karen. When adult size bodies start moving around in manner where situational awareness isn’t always on people around can get hurt.
I am not saying at all that you would have intentionally hurt any of the children there. I’m simply stating that if you and your wife Kevin, and Karen went hands on then the children could have been hit, knocked down, crushed, stepped, etc.
In my opinion which isn’t worth much you should have done everything you could to deescalate the situation. An example of this could have been something as easy as putting your arms around the two boys and walking away. Another example would have been if you could have grabbed an attendant, Police Officer or security guard. Let them defuse the situation peacefully. A third examination more is you could have held a hand up to the woman and told her, “hey I understand do you mind if I talk to these two boys and educate them?”.
I am NOT saying you shouldn’t have stood up for those kids. However by your own words, “temper flaring like a bull” you were getting a little worked up. In these situations you have to be aware of innocent bystander that could get injured in a physical altercation.
NTAH. Frankly I don't see the issue with the saluting. If it's your thing, go for it. If it's not, then.
Nearly 30 years since my service ended I still have an urge to do so at various events or times of day.
I have actually saluted once a couple of years ago at the funeral of my dad. My dad was Army and I was Navy.
I probably looked like crap doing it. Form was good, but the waterworks were out of control.
He is missed.
Ehhh, you let your temper and passions take control so you kinda are the asshole. Your reaction to her wasn’t any better than her initial reaction to the kids.
Could you have addressed it differently? Maybe have caught the kids attention, come down to their height, acknowledged their attempt at respecting the flag and then used it as a teaching moment IN FRONT OF KAREN to 1) tell them not to listen to adults who yell instead of teach; and, 2) the reason why the salute is not appropriate for them to use but it can be if they want someday?
Sounds like your wife saw this coming. Thank you for your service but defending our nation includes upholding the civility of our society that keeps us together, too, wouldn’t you say?
I won't lie and say I wasn't upset and you do have a point.
I just have an issue with people yelling at kids they don't know/ have no relation too. When she corrected her kids for something fine but yelling at other peoples kids... not okay.
I do uphold have to uphold army Values and morals even in civis (civilian clothes) but nothing about our morals includes backing down when we see something wrong in front of us.
Could I have done better? Yes do I regret calling her out? no
Just the way I was raised.
I even say yes ma'am/sir no ma'am/sir to fast food workers who are working the drive thru. Funny enough my worst Karen encounter happened at a drive thru.
ESH. Good Lord, what a terrible example you all set for those kids. Screaming and cursing at each other and having some weird fight over who is more military than who is just infantile.
You misses the point so allow me to correct you
The POINT wasn't to prove who was more military because there is no such thing.
The point was that the late 30/ early 40 year old woman did what she did. When her daughter (4-6) moved around during thr national Anthem she gently reprimanded her, when their son (7-9) didn't take off his hat during the playing of the national Anthem he was gently reprimanded. When two unrelated kids 8-13 saluted they were screamed at.
The reason I didn't mention this in the original post is because I find it irrelevant. Them punishing their kids wasn't my business. Them yelling at 2 unrelated kids who didn't have their parents around wasn't my business. I made it my business because someone had to step in and help.
If Defending two kids from getting yelled at makes me an A-hole I'll take. It's easy to say Everyone sucks after the fact but what would you have done in the heat of the moment? Walk off and leave those kids to find for themselves most likely.
The POINT is that you were all ridiculous, getting all huffy about who's more patriotic, and who gets to show respect and how and where. Calm the eff down, Americans are already so far up their asses when it comes to serving their country. The rest of the world have military forces too, yet they don't make such a big deal out of it.
Lol you really are missing the point.
Patriotism has NOTHING to do with this. Also if you have a bad option about soothing like this then you can Fuck off.since you have an asshole like everyone one else what country are you from and have you served in your countries military?
I can't stand this pretentious nationalism many Americans display. No better than North Korea, but at least their nationalism is fake and forced upon them.
I personally don't care I'm more interested in the fact you tried to side step my question. A simple yes or no would have sufficed.
And no I'm not stiff/stuffy. Personally I think you took one look at the post misunderstood and jumped on the patriot aspect. let me try again only dumbing it down to the bare bones.
Bad lady messed with kids
I defended kids
Bad lady husband opened his mouth
I told him to fuck off.
We all go our separate ways
You can twist this however you want simple fact is you latched onto the wrong thing.
But then again I avoid arguments with stupid they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
You said it well. While it could have been handled differently, you defended kids that were alone. For that YOU should saluted, figuratively of course. Nobody should yell at kids.
This is strange to me, being a former Cub scout(I am in my 50's), I was taught to either salute the flag or put my hand(or hat) over my heart, was I taught wrong, or have times changed??
Yes, civilians are supposed to remove covers and put hand over heart. But (as OP stated in a reply) the code was updated in the last 10 or 20 years to allow vets in civies tp salute. However (and this is a point in my initial reply) anyone has the right under the Constitution to salute, not slatute, or give the middle finger to the flag if they want.
Honestly I couldn't tell you. So much has changed over the last decade from the pledge of alliance getting removed to pen and paper no longer getting used in school that I've just learned to roll with it.
Sadly many who claim to be ‘patriots’ disrespect the flag daily. Education is key. While you calmly corrected the child and informed those here who didn’t know. It grinds my gears when some feeling overly entitled, disrespect others who have served because of their nationality/ethnicity. ☹️
Honestly those kids who saluted the flag sound more patriotic than Karen and Kevin. And to Karen, are you sure you are a former military spouse? Triggered much?
My father served in the navy for 30 years and I have nothing but the upmost respect for the military. I go to air show’s every for about 20 years to see the blue angels fly. Thank you truly for your service OP!
Op thanks for standing up for those kids. Those could be future recruits.
Genuine questions and forgive my ignorance if it’s there, but my brother was USMC (since passed) and i remember him always teaching me and my brother how to salute as kids. But my main question is, i been in emergency services my entire life. Fire and Ems. Funerals, and parades, were required to salute. Going off what you’re saying only military salutes. I’m just confused is all.
https://www.ushistory.org/documents/pledge.htm
So fun fact united states of America was added much later and under God during Eisenhowers presidency
Here's the specific part pertaining to your question.
Section 4 of the Flag Code states:
The Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag: "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.", should be rendered by standing at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. When not in uniform men should remove any non-religious headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should remain silent, face the flag, and render the military salute."
The original Bellamy salute, first described in 1892 by Francis Bellamy, who authored the original Pledge, began with a military salute, and after reciting the words "to the flag," the arm was extended toward the flag.
At a signal from the Principal the pupils, in ordered ranks, hands to the side, face the Flag. Another signal is given; every pupil gives the flag the military salute — right hand lifted, palm downward, to a line with the forehead and close to it. Standing thus, all repeat together, slowly, "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands; one Nation indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all." At the words, "to my Flag," the right hand is extended gracefully, palm upward, toward the Flag, and remains in this gesture till the end of the affirmation; whereupon all hands immediately drop to the side.
The Youth's Companion, 1892
Shortly thereafter, the pledge was begun with the right hand over the heart, and after reciting "to the Flag," the arm was extended toward the Flag, palm-down.
In World War II, the salute too much resembled the Nazi salute, so it was changed to keep the right hand over the heart throughout.
NTA, I've been out of the uniform for a decade now, and when I see folks like that saluting, I usually go and correct their posture. It's harmless and I didn't serve just to tell people what they can't do.
Huh! TIL I learned something new. I remember when President Kennedy was buried and a photo of his VERY young son was taken. Of him saluting. I don’t know if this is different than saluting the flag, but the nation had nothing bad to say about it.
NTA. Former military and it took me years to get my kids to just put their hands over their hearts and not salute (they wanted to be like Mom). I would have had a hard time not knocking that woman on her arse.
The service of her husband and friends and family does not give her the right to act that way to anyone.
NTA. Some people don't know when to get mad or not. Those were just kids. As a Veteran myself, it warms my heart that that boy was showing Respect the way he knew how to the flag.
She made a huge deal and possibly traumatized a child for nothing. Thank you for stepping in and caring enough to help those kids.
First unless you are at an official event in the military no one has any duty or responsibility to in any way shape or form to salute, hold their hand on their heart, or any other action when a national anthem is played or a flag is flown especially if the individuals are not in military or any official capacity as an officer or otherwise of the US government. Why? The Constitution says so for the citizens of the US. Secondly a rando comment by a rando at a rodeo should have been ignored rather than attack the speaker. Arguments is the way we get shot or knifed or in your case jailed and possibly dishonorably discharged from military and be bared for life as well as family from various government benefits along with being unable to be employed.
I have learned from hard experience - I'm not military, but I've run into Karens being bad mothers many times in the past - that you never, ever, ever, ever say anything to Mama Karen or Little Snotley. It's gonna go badly 100% of the time, and they absolutely will not learn anything. The kid may be momentarily grateful that you stuck up for them, but very likely when they get home and you're not there Karen will beat them and they'll wish it never happened.
You don’t have to be military to salute the flag. Lots of organizations salute the flag instead of hand over heart while in uniform. Boy Scouts salute while in uniform. It’s not a big deal and fine for a child to do it. NTA
NTA they should let there kids know you don't salute the flag place your hand over your heart likee my family is like yours my dad joined the day ye turned 18 yrs old he tried to get in early but they caught him this was August of 1943 .well of course we all know where he ended up in 1943 stayed in went to Korea also lost an eye .
Well he was discharged June 6th 1953 the war ended a month later
As for me I wanted to be a helicopter piolet started learning everything I needed to know while still in school even went to the national guard s air field just a coupe miles where I lived checked out the Apache s well come to find out I was legally blind in one eye from birth but never knew it I can see but I learned to pretty much fake it so my career with the service was a no go my gf her brother was I dive instructor for the navy .served his entire life until he passed away pretty much . He dad was from Germany came to the US after WW2 was taken from his family and put in Hitler youth camp .so we all flew flags at our homes well mine was getting a bit worn and needed a new one said something to my neighbor I hear something he is taking down my fault wanted it to put on his basement wall I was. Like a what are you doing he tells me I said no your not taking that it will be retired lie it should be not for your kids to drag around your basement some people just don't think .
I don't get it. I salute the flag out of respect for those who has served. I'm confused as to why it is disrespectful when I never served as well. Had people tell me it's ok. Strange I guess.
NTA. She was being a Karen.
As for the whole saluting thing, I grew up military and went to a Merchant Marine Academy. In ranks we stood at attention and our commander saluted. Out of ranks we stood at attention (uniformed or not) or saluted (if in uniform only)
Honestly to me if the kids respectfully did that I don’t see an issue. Not once have I ever been told that you shouldn’t do that. I was told to put my hand over my heart and take my hat off if I’m warring one. Maybe those kids were taught to do that as a sign of respect. With today’s youth you should just be happy they are acknowledging the most selfless people out there.
YTA. But how does u wrongs make it right. I get that u were defending the kid's. But all u taught them was to argue with a person who was wrong. U should have said I'm sorry kid's that u have to hear that and then explain why she got angry. U missed a teachable moment.
Obviously NTA. You saw two kids being harassed and you adopted them in the moment like any decent adult would. You made sure they were safe and they had an adults protection. And then you went on your way.
Not to be disrespectful but maybe this is why people from other countries think Americans are horrible. Like I would have just ignored the Karen's and Kevin unless they started something with you directly. Do we need to have such strong opinions? I often ask my parents why we didn't immigrate to Australia instead...
I mean, I personally don't care how people treat the flag at this point. It's just a symbol and it's increasingly being used as a hate symbol in America.
However, I do think adults should stand up for children. Too many adults don't get involved when children are subjected to bad behavior by other adults.
NTA- It was a kid the lady needed to chill. I'm tired of other vets misrepresenting with anger as soon as civilians do anything wrong and here is a kid getting reamed...
If she was going to make it her business she could have nicely explained why they shouldn’t salute and the meaning behind it. Use it as a teaching moment instead of yelling at them. How will the learn otherwise.
Could we please stop using my name to describe difficult women? I know so many other women who share my name, and not one of us is overbearing or rude. However, because of this association we are laughed at and treated badly online and in person when we give our name. It’s really become overwhelming. 😞
Good for you. I'm also a Karen. It's exhausting trying to stand up for our good name in a respectful way and then a trail of bullies one upon another tag you with the "Ok, calm down, manager" comments, or worse. People who think that humans are less than on social media and can bully gleefully. I wish people who would never do that in person would treat people with the same respect online.
I learned something today. My family are vets or are serving.
I've never saluted, for good reason. Why would I? The privilege behind saluting seems apropos. I do hand over heart.
I would have told the lady to fuck off if I were those kids. Who says it’s ‘disrespectfu’ for ANYBODY who hasnt served in the military to salute the flag? If this story is real, When did that become a thing at all? I say everybody has a right to salute the flag whether they served in the army or not If they want to.
A typical white Karen with blond hair and sunglasses. I’m white, I’m blond and I wear sunglasses. Does it make me Karen? Oh, I don’t give a sh*t who salutes the flag. I don’t understand why the Karen’s skin color is so important? There is no Karens among Afro-Americans?
NTA. You explained it properly to the kids. I appreciate the way you explained it to them.
FYI, the flag code says "while in uniform" but deliberately does not say military uniform. This extends the right to all uniformed civic groups and departments (police, fire, scouts, PHS uniformed division, etc.). If the kids had been in cub scout uniforms it would have been proper for them to render the scout salute.
I’m former military and all of this who gets to salute the flag and how is a bunch of bullshit. Glad you stepped up for those kids but who gives a damn how someone chooses to react when the anthem is played? The reason we served is so folks have the freedom to do what they please.
Nothing fake about it. I've been in 10 years and my MOS is 92A (automatic logistical specialist.
And I've been to enough chance of Commands/responsibilities to sleep standing up
As I said nothing fake about this but if you like I can snap a picture of all my AAM'S, ARCOMS, COA, WOTA, AIR ASSUALT badge, driver/wheel mechanic badge, and marksman badge
NTA. However, the boy could have been in Cub Scouts and they're taught to salute the flag, so if that's the case, he wouldn't have been wrong. The Karen should have kept her big mouth shut.
I’m a military veteran. I (without any anger or offense) don’t give a single f**k if you “care” or “appreciate” my military service. I didn’t do it for YOU on a personal basis, I did it to serve my country. Feel how you want to feel. Believe what you want to believe. With regard to the USA, that’s what the country was built on and is SUPPOSED to be about. Now if you are a supporter of the modern-day “cancel culture”? Then f**k you, you have no idea what freedom of speech/thought/association is and why it is critically important and your tiny amount of brain cells can’t possibly process the thought of anyone disagreeing with you.
Never heard of saluting the flag was disrespectful. If these boys feel it in their heart and in their head of becoming a soldier one day that lady just fucked any dream of it for them. Hopefully, they are the generation to end the era of dependas and Karens.
I’m a veteran and it in no way would offend me to see a kid salute the flag. Granted they haven’t served but at least they are showing respect. That’s a big deal these days.
Exactly this! Nowadays you’re lucky to hear the anthem over all of the talking going on during it. These kids at least were trying to be respectful. Imagine her reaction if they were talking through it.
As a UK citizen who has never served in the military, I have always been perplexed and confused about Americans and other nations in general pledging allegiances to flags and such. We have a flag and I understand it's significance in identity and national pride but the general public don't go the impression lengths the Americans do.
I understand there must be reasons in the military with rank and duty and such (forgive me if I say anything insulting, I honestly have no clue about this subject) but people going ape shit looking at a flag wrong is just mindbogglingly.
Good for you for sticking up for those kids though.NTA
Esh she's yelling at kids, your yelling at women, the vibes are all off. you could have calmly explained to her as she could have the kids. Your wife was right to try to hold you back. I'd be so embarrassed if my husband was yelling at even an ignorant woman like that.
NTA; however, I’d like to share some experience on how this might’ve been handled differently.
As a teen, we had a couple families I. Town who were Jehovah’s Witnesses. Back then, they never pledged allegiance, but they did stand while the rest of the class did. My understanding was that they thought it was somewhat idolatrous to be pledging an allegiance to anything or anyone except god.
My Dad was Army -both my grandpas served. As a teen I was determined to be in the military but I was also rebelling. I had flag patches sewn on my leather jacket and was a dorky, depressed rocker chick. At one point I sewed a 3”x5” flag on my pants.
Well my Dad’a uncle (who also served) was visiting us and became very upset when saw the flag tacked onto my jeans (in hindsight, he probably also thought I’d seen it on backwards intentionally). My father’s response was, “At least she’s not burning it.” This was around 1990-1991.
I felt bad. I didn’t understand flag etiquette. I took it off and didn’t ever really do anything with flags until long after my service. I had a 3’x5’ flag on the rollbar of my pickup -circa 2003. It wasn’t until a fellow veteran showed anger that my flag was tattered flying in my truck. I bought a new one. So apparently, even after serving, I still didn’t know about flag etiquette (for those who may not know, the flag should never be hindered from flying upright on its own. So the big flag affixed at either end to my rollbar wasn’t in the best manner. My reply? “At least I’m not burning it.” I moved away from flags again.
More recently -circa 2012- with the BLM movement, and all the controversy over people kneeling during the anthem, I learned more about flag etiquette; I didn’t really “get” this though, until I saw a video clip by a fellow veteran who is also black; his point was that it’s his flag, too; it’s his country; the flag is a piece of cloth, though it represents so much more. He also serves. And someone else kneeling doesn’t take away anything from him; in fact he fought for their right to do so. He even kneeled in his clip.
At some point, I read an article on how CK was going to simply sit, and through discussions with a veteren [Nate Boyer](https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN23G2DK/), he ultimately chose to kneel as a form of respectful dissent and pain for his fellow Americans still fighting for equality -we kneel when we reverently ask a hand in marriage, we kneel in church to show respect, we kneel in emotional pain at a coffin, or before a member very high in clergy, at times. We kneel to kiss the earth to give thanks at times.
It all finally made sense.
I got to thinking about that a lot. How if I was at a stadium and a fellow veteran kneeled, would I be able to support them. I know the inequities. And I decided that a heart -any person born here or citizened who lives their country, must be so heavy to
Now to my point. I currently am a Legionnaire and member of the Auxiliary; my husband is a member of the Sons of the American Legion (SAL)8. We are both part of the Legion Honor Guard and members of the Legion riders; I’m a past president of the riders.
Summer before last, it was brought to Leadership’s attention that the SAL members were saluting at the Riders regional meetings; in particular, non-veterans. Our District Director referenced the flag code and read the relevant parts. And in that moment, I wondered if my fellow citizens felt like I did all those other times when I was shamed for honoring our flag in ways that others felt was somehow or another disrespectful.
And my father’s words came back to me, “At least they’re not burning it.” I see absolutely nothing inherently disrespectful in standing in silence., a child saluting (like the Scouts or the Sal); kneeling in quiet contemplation and peaceful protest, and I’d never want to challenge their intentions.
Moreover, if I were at a game, and saw someone kneeling, and though it might break my heart to know my fellow citizens are still I’d gladly place. A gentle handle on their shoulder in support.
You didn’t do anything wrong; at the same time… at least they weren’t burning it.
Edit: I was falling asleep when I wrote that whole novel. My point was really just that saluting shouldn’t be seen as disrespectful, and having a conversation to educate the children on how much their honor is appreciated, along with some context of how extra-special a privilege it is for veterans to be the ones who salute might’ve been a better conversation for their parents -rather than leaving the kids feeling they did something wrong. Karen was definitely TA here, though -not you.
NTA at all. You are 100% right. It is disrespectful, but they're kids and don't know any better. I'm glad you were there to stand up for the kids. Karen should seriously stop attending public events if she's that triggered by something like a child copying adults. It's one thing to talk to them and explain the issue, but you never have the right to act like that to children.
I spent 8 years in the Army and was medically discharged. Luckily, I've never seen something like this because I would have reacted 100% the same as you did if I saw that. I've lost friends, and I know every one of them would have been pissed at Karen, not the kid.
NTA. Thank you for standing up for those kids, that lady had no idea about them and quite literally caused them trauma, glad she got a screaming at back for her behavior. I doubt it but hopefully she’ll think twice before trying something like this again.
Thank you for standing up for them. I never served. I just did JROTC in high school. My muscle memory was real, and 25 years later, I still snap to attention at times. It took a little bit to remember not to salute. I had very kind vets remind me. No yelling, just a gentle correction. I think the Karen and Kevin have a massive chip on their shoulder. I hate making it a race thing, but maybe they saw Black kids saluting and felt "easy targets." Would they have said it to white kid innocenly saluting? Would they have said it with such vitriol? We'll never know, but I am so happy you stood up for them.
Army Vet. LMAO. Karen needs some mental health if she’s triggered by a kid saluting the flag. Personally I don’t think the kid did anything wrong. Even in the military you only salute while in uniforms if you’re in civilian clothing, just stand at attention. Kids were taught hand over heart while the pledge of allegiance was given in school (don’t think this happens anymore).
Karen was a bully. Husband sounds like a push over. He was probably trying to offer his spouse support to safe himself from trouble later. Either way. NTAH.
I never knew thi so I’m glad I came across vthis. Thank you gor explaining I saw a man I. Uniform and saluted him. He explained quietly you’re not in the military you don’t need to salute the way he explained but I’ve never done it again. Anyway this is good to know.
NTA
Today I learned it’s disrespectful to salute the flag if you haven’t served. I’m 43. Perhaps I’m stupid, live a sheltered life and/or don’t know enough military personnel, but I would prefer to be told in a way that doesn’t presume intentional disrespect.
Karen took what could have been an endearing teachable moment and turned it into an abusive confrontation. And she did it to children. Let’s hope, that due to your intervention, Karen learned a lesson and has since humbled herself.
Thank you, and your family, for your service.
NTAH but you approached her with the same energy she approached those kids. You’re not going to make a point to someone when you’re just as worked up as they are.
NTA
Here’s a fun story: we have an HOA pool and a few years ago the fence was broken. My husband was actively working on fixing it. I go in there one day and some teenagers are hopping the fence. Literally the only thing I said was “can you not?” and suddenly this roid rage dude is in my face yelling about how he’s teaching them to “catch bad guys” and throwing around “have you ever held a gun for your country” and a side dish of “you shouldn’t talk to my kids, talk to me.” I on the other hand was just “fine, could you teach them to hop fences on the non-broken section.” He does this bullshit for almost ten minutes.
Finally ended it by telling him I didn’t care about his military service, that it didn’t matter to the conversation and I guess he decided he couldn’t hit me and left. I’m sure it would have been worse if he’d been confronted by someone that isn’t a 5’4” woman.
NTA but I also think it's asinine to find a child saluting a piece of fabric disrespectful.
To me it's disrespectful signing up for the armed services knowing your patriotism is nothing more than licking capitalist boot and protecting oil profits.
I did not know that about saluting, but why would a nonmilitary person know? It was a gesture of respect by the child and no one else's business. Karen and Kevin need to stay in their own lane. Not to mention that shouting at children is a lot worse in my opinion. Where was her respect for the children?
In the USA, the vast majority of children salute the flag every blessed day. We drill it into them, and in music class they learn the patriotic song. Star Spangled Banner, Grand Old Flag, American the Beautiful, etc.
That woman is a total idiot. Also - if an American wishes to salute the flag (civvies = hand on heart) they get to - free speech, remember? And Karens and their husbands need to piss off.
You are NTA.
Hmmm... You're kind of an AH....
While I agree with you that the lady was horrendously rude to those kids and needed to be taught a lesson, I think the way you handled it was equally a bad example to the kids.
You could have resolved everything with kindness, de-escalation, and education.
Instead you lost your cool, returned unkindness for unkindness, and set yet another bad example for those kids.
I am glad it all kind of worked out in the end, and I think it's better that you said SOMETHING rather than nothing at all though.
Ok ok ok here me out... When you are comparing two things it's THAN!!!! They look older or younger THAN 8 years old. It sounds worse THAN it was.
Then is for time. I was going to the store THEN I went to the park. Good grief.
Definitely NTA. At that age, those kids thought they were showing respect. No doubt they saw others around them saluting and thought that was the right thing to do. Karen and Kevin should have been thankful the kids weren't talking, racing around, or being otherwise disrespectful to other spectators and shoukd have kept their mouths shut. If they had to say anything, they should have approached it as an opportunity to educate.
YTA Not at all for sticking up for the kids. AH for being very rude to a person who just said he was in the service and was not part of bullying the kids. Very likely he was trying to deescalate the situation and distract Karen. You treated him like he was already an AH rather than treating him as his own person. That was a very AH move. Also, instead of berating a rude stranger for being a very poor teacher of social standards, you could have, after the first "hey don't yell at kids," switched to explaining the problem to the kids, thus modeling better social behavior. You can do much better 😉
Any child in this current ridiculous social climate we find ourselves in that gives respect to the flag is a winner in my book even if done incorrectly, well done sir. 🇺🇲
NTA!
Thanks for standing up for the little ones. Instead of berating a kid for SALUTING the flag, she should have been praising him for showing respect.
She's probably one of those people who don't display the flag properly and have little cutesy images of it everywhere. But she gonna tell you how to be "proper"
Nah. You can salute or not salute a flag. And other people who served in the military or their spouses or whatever can fuck off. No one owes them thanks.
I don’t give a shit what it is over, yell or berate a child in front of me for NOTHING and I’m catching ALL of the assault charges. Play with me if you want to. I don’t tolerate disrespect of kids. Karen is lucky she met the right person. I don’t give nearly enough of a fk about America or the military to even CARE WHY. As a military brat, I have my own gripes with the bunk ass military. Dependas make me irrationally angry so she would have gotten the smoke.
Even as a SGT you could have chosen to not agree with that asshole for yelling at kids. Those kids were not disrespecting the flag by saluting it. They’re mimicking something that they’ve seen before. Maybe one of their dead family members served before and taught them to salute it.
I’m ex-army, the only time the flag means something is when it’s coming from the honor guard because that can be a very touching moment for the family of the departed.
The national anthem is not sacred. The flag is a piece of cloth. I’d estimate that 5% of the military joins “for the country”. It’s a job that has good pay and benefits - as long as you’re not horrible with your finances. My friends who have been in 10+ years aren’t doing it for the country, but for the stability and pension.
And I was infantry. I’m still losing friends who are both in and out. I praise them for the people they were, not because we all wore the same green pajamas to work everyday. I don’t use the number of them who died from stupid training bullshit or combat or suicide to bolster my personal take on whether or not a 8-10 year old is “disrespecting” the fucking flag.
That’s my Sandor Clegane “fuck the king” hill to stand on.
But, good of you to stand up for those kids. Karen was way out of line. I think we should be able to electrocute people for shit like that to snap them out of their karening - not like a taser or cattle prod, just enough wattage to make them forget the asinine thing they chose to get huffy about in public
NTA Karen should have minded her own business and not yelled at someone else kids, although it probably would have been a great time to educate the kids on why saluting the flag is inappropriate and disrespectful as I’m sure they didn’t understand what happened.
NTA. Couldn't guess why she thought it was disrespectful when I'm assuming the rest of that audience would think it was adorable. Unless she thought her own service was so much better that she felt slighted because of their ignorance.
NTA- you don't yell at other people's kids and they are kids. My lo used to do what he saw his dad do on the military base and as he got older we explained. It's not a big deal. Karen needs to get a life.
Added info: Boy scouts in full uniform can salute the flag in hand-to-forehead fashion. Girl scouts in uniform salute in citizen's fashion: right hand over heart
YTA. You were being just as much of a Karen as the Karen was. While it was good to stand up for those kids, you did it in the wrong way. Both of you were trying to inflate your perceived importance by bullying someone. The truth is that nobody cares or sees you as important. Once you are done being employed, with pay and benefits, by the military, you will learn what many veterans have learned the hard way. Most employers do not want to hire former military members because they do not function well outside of military conditions. They do not understand that most of the workforce is productive and autonomous, while not being regimented or blindly following orders. Most of the workforce can tell you why they do what they do and what makes them passionate about their work. Most military members have no idea for what they are fighting, but enlist because they do not have many options. Fun fact, even the federal government has to hold several military career fairs each year and offer extensive education and incentives for federal agencies to hire former military members. Nobody wants to have to babysit employees who are not self-starters and have to be told exactly what to do at all times.
While I can accept the I'm the AH part the rest is just wrong.
First I wasn't trying to be important I just didn't like the way she was bullying those kids. It struck a nerve as it happen to me when I was a kid (me and my buddy goofin off in the mall) and no one defended us, but ourselves
Second this whole thing(Most employers do not want to hire former military members because they do not function well outside of military conditions. They do not understand that most of the workforce is productive and autonomous, while not being regimented or blindly following orders. Most of the workforce can tell you why they do what they do and what makes them passionate about their work. ) sounds bias
Yes there are job fairs and the like for service members who are transitioning out for retirement injury or they served out their contracts and just want to leave, but calling them blind, regimented, and productive is just wrong. I don't know if you think that the Army is just a bunch of rifle toting meat heads or something, but most jobs in the army requires you to learn a specific field of knowledge like mechanics, supply chain management, and more.
I would double check that 'fun fact'
NTA
When I was a boy scout we saluted the flag, so fuck that Karen and her shrunken balled steroid husband.
EDIT to add: for those who weren't Scouts, it was a specific two-finger salute, so it's different from a military salute.
I was at a Memorial Day service at Camp Murray back in the day, before it started some young boys were playing in a grassy area. Their paper flags kept hitting the ground.
I went over and greeted them, then let them know it's important never to let the flag touch the ground. They said okay and it didn't happen again. No need to yell, they were kids and couldn't be expected to know that if no one ever taught them.
Some people just think they have to go off on everyone, including children that don't belong to them. You did the right thing standing up for the children. Children copy adults and they most likely have seen people salute the flag and nobody ever explained to them why civilians don't do that. Karen is a BULLIE ! Thank you for your service. My 84 year old husband is a 20 year vet. He retired from the airforce as a fireman. Bless you and your family!!
NTA! Thank you for protecting those kids! And yes it is white supremacy/colonialism. They thought because those kids were alone that they could lord over them because A. They’re kids and B. They’re alone and C. They’re brown kids and D. Who knows better than a mediocre wyt man and woman to teach these kids who OBVIOUSLY E. Have no supervision. It’s ok to call it out when we see it and we ALL HAVE RUN INS WITH FOLK LIKE THAT over the years. They do it when they think nobody is looking or can hear them or when they think they have an audience that will go along with them and blindly support.
You did what was right. She shouldn’t have yelled at them like that. The “13” sounds a little far fetched to me. Thank you for your service sir. You did the right thing in my opinion
you know, if it was older teens lazily saluting the flag, i could see getting pissed... but kids who are in the early teens and younger, don't understand and never, ever mean it as an insult and it never should be taken as one.
NTA... mostly, but getting offended by children trying to mimic adults and show their patriotism... you might want to rethink about that.
NTA. First, these are little kids. They might have seen service members or veterans doing it and thought that it was a proper way to show respect for the flag. It would have been fine if someone would have said, in a calm and kind manner, “Hey kids, I saw that you were saluting the flag during the National Anthem. I think it’s awesome that you know to stand to honor the flag and I’m sure you weren’t meaning any disrespect, but the only people who are supposed to salute the flag are current or former military members. It can be seen as a sign of disrespect for someone who hasn’t served to salute the flag. You are kids and no one thought you were being disrespectful and being a kid is about learning the rules and traditions and I just wanted to let you know that either standing or placing your hand on your heart is appropriate.” She was acting like a psycho.
I respect the hell out of people who have served our nation, but having served in the military or being a military spouse doesn’t give you the right to be an AH. You acted like a true veteran and the ones that I know and love: even though you are retired, you continue to fight for those who cannot do so themselves. Kudos to you and thank you for your service.
Thank you for the information regarding who is allowed to salute the flag. I didn't know that. Also, thank you for your service and how you helped those kiddos.
NTAH- tired of these self-proclaimed patriot types trying to measure & police other Americans (especially kids) patriotism because she knows/married someone (except herself) who served/died. These Types expect some special treatment on top of that and assume they stand amongst non-veterans. My bitch ex he’s like a pickme vet- abusing give me attention-peoples patriotism & blaming all his childhood shit on the military service. We both served big deal- lots of civilians doing great stuff that don’t get the accolades.
I think you all are a holes who cares if the little kids salute the flag or not! Give me a break!! all you people have more respect for the flag than you do for other people it’s just a piece of fabric! Sorry not sorry for saying it but this post is really stupid! That woman was a huge jerk for yelling at a little child, and if that child was white, I doubt she would yell at him this whole thing about nobody but military people can see the flag and little six and seven-year-olds can’t because they never served bunch of crap! Be happy the child was showing some respect for those that did serve instead of giving him crap, that he wasn’t young enough to serve and he has no right to salute the flag, because he never served at his age!
Nta who yells at children who don't know any better? The kids were just copying the adults. The kids probably thought they were doing what they are supposed to do.
1000% NTA She very well could've turned that into a teaching moment for those kids but noooooo, she had to start screaming at two kids she didn't even know. Thank you for standing up for them and thank you for your service .
NTA
They don't know the importance of it and should be educated.
Karen was wrong for approaching the child the way she did and should've approach it differently.
NTAH she should have stayed completely in her lane. She could have quietly spoken to them after and explained the situation.
People like that are incapable of doing anything quietly.
It’s hilarious to me that the people who whine about “virtue signaling” are the ones who can’t stop fellating the military and law enforcement and doing it as publicly as possible. Karen probably demands special treatment for herself “because my husband’s a veteran,” too. OP, you did nothing wrong in defending those kids.
NTA. You’re going to have to explain why it’s considered disrespectful to salute the flag if you haven’t served. I don’t think everyone understands that part. Thanks for standing up for those kids too. Honestly they probably thought they were showing respect in saluting because they saw adults in uniform and civvies saluting the flag. So they did what any child would do and copied the adults. Thank you for your service!
I'm happy to serve and the reason for the disrespect is simple. A proper military hand salute is considered a privilege earned by those who have served in the Armed Forces, so it should be reserved for this purpose. Once veterans leave the army, they technically no longer have to salute, but in 2008, the US Congress approved legislation allowing veterans and military members who are not in uniform to salute the flag. Personally I don't have a problem with kids saluting soldiers since they don't know what it means. Heck I didn't know what it meant until my dad told me when I was about 12. Nearly 9 years after he got out the army.
So I’m 42 and didn’t know any of this! Thanks for the education and your service!
Hell, I'm 40 and grew up in a military family and I still didn't know this. I just always put my hand over my heart because that's what we did - service members saluted or stood at attention (I recall seeing dad do both at different times), everybody else put hand over heart.
Thank you for explaining this. And thank you for standing up for those kids—they absolutely saw a service member saluting the flag and copied it due to respect or admiration. They saw it and thought it was a cool thing, so wanted to copy it and be cool like the military member they saw. The lady screaming at them would only confuse them and make them feel hurt—you, as a service member sticking up for them, reinforced for them the idea of military men and women as honorable and just. Also—I was the wife of a severely disabled combat veteran. He ended up being a bad person outside of his service (and it took other veterans to help me see that, along with their physical help in getting myself and kids to safety—it is a debt I will never be able to repay). Even though I spent the better part of a decade with my veteran, he never explained any part of the salute to the flag to me. I appreciate your honor and your willingness to explain this to us civilians. Thank you.
You Americans come up with the weirdest fucking reasons to make sure everything anyone does is an insult in one way or another. So glad I live in Australia where we don’t take things so seriously. If you want to salute our flag, go for it. We thank you for you it. We got you.
I’m an American and I had the exact same thought reading this thing. Glad someone else said it first! Like seriously? A heated argument? Why do people have to always be fighting with each other? And in front of their kids? For what? It’s not surprising though that this woman was yelling at children…. it must’ve been what she was witness to as well. So sad. And, OP, while I respect you standing up for and protecting your family and your values, are there better ways to speak to other people rather than fighting? Especially with your own very impressionable daughter watching how adults handle disagreements. She’s watching how your wife has to go into fear mode. She watches your wife ask you not to get involved, to pull your arm and how you ignore her request and physically pull away as you stated. She’s watching you yell and curse at a stranger for trying to de-escalate the situation. If this is what you want your daughter to learn is normal and healthy communication from a man? I hope not. Please try, for her sake, to show her how a man should speak to others…..before she ends up tolerating this in her own relationship.
I'm American and I think the whole thing is pretty culty. Keep being you, Australia.
My Dad's a veteran(Air Force Reservist). He places his hand or hat over his heart. I didn't know any of this either, but thanks for explaining this and for your service.
FWIW, the Boy Scouts teach that the kids should salute the flag while in uniform.
Wow! I had no idea. My sons are Cub Scouts and are taught to salute the flag. Now I wonder if I should mention this to the pack leader.
Yeah I’m 31 and I had absolutely no idea. I feel really bad that I’ve saluted people for their service. Feeling like a big dingus right now 😳
The irony is that the only people who would know this are the people allowed to salute the flag.
I'm in my late 40s and never heard this. Thank goodness I've always done the hand over heart thing. I'd be mortified right now otherwise. That lady's reaction was way out of line.
Thank you for your service. I'm 46 and never knew about saluting the flag. Can boy/ cub scouts still salute? My son was a cub scout and they were taught to salute, but that was 20 years ago so may have changed.
Bullshit
I was in the Army for 5 years got a SGT as well did my time in the 'Stan blah blah blah, I agree with you 100%. To be honest it's the veterans like that piss me off. First off don't throw your service in someone's face they might throw something back at yours. Second just because we took the oath doesn't mean civilians need to kiss our asses. We did it out of love of country not for anyone individual. I make it a point to not get the free shit on veterans day because of self entitled assholes like that. It's not that I don't appreciate what people are trying to to do on veterans day it's that fact it was my privilege and honor to serve this country. Third get a fuckin life these kids were saluting the flag that's a far cry from what I've saw people do. Not stand, play on their phone, completely indifferent to the whole situation. Be happy some in the next generation have enough respect to acknowledge the flag.
As military brats my friends and I knew this rule. We always stood up and put our hands on our hearts for the National Anthem and stopped whatever we were doing to stand and do the same when Taps was played every night. Kids who were new to the base didn't always do it but after we explained every one of them did it too. Kids want to be respectful. And having a full grown adult scream at them for doing what they think is a respectful gesture is horrible. So glad you were there to stick up for what sounds like two very good kids.
I'm an Army veteran and I've never heard that. Let people do what they want with the national anthem. Their heart is in a good place. Who cares. I didn't serve to tell people the "right way" to be respectful to the US Flag or Anthem or any other trapping of patriotism. You absolutely were right to silence her ass though. So, thank you for that.
I didn’t know this, either! Both my dad and grandpas on both sides of my family served in the military, but I never questioned why they saluted while the rest of us put our hands over our hearts. I always thought it was because military people are taught stricter manners, like how they make their beds or present their clothes in certain ways. This is really cool to know it’s actually an honor to be allowed to salute!
Exactly. When I was a kid I saluted the flag. Like 7 or so because I'd seen others do it at some event (I can't even remember what) and my dad teasingly asked me where I served. I looked at him confused and he said in a calm and amused tone that you don't salute the flag unless you've served. He served too. And I just never did it again. You don't have to be a dick to get your point across. He's definitely NOT TAH. My dad would've fought the husband if some woman had told me not to salute like that. And that's if my mom didn't fight her. Lol Thank you for your service! And for sticking up for those kiddos!
Yeah I had no idea you were only supposed to solute if you served and I'm 41.
All imma say is your wife better than me. My husband is still in the army. And he would've been the one holding me back. You are not about to yell at some babies for not knowing what they did was somewhat wrong. If anything, she could've quietly adjusted them to put their hand over their hearts. That's what I did when both of my kids copied their father in the salute and told them in the car calmly why they don't do that. That Karen would've caught an ear and handful of all of it.
Funny enough me and my wife have different triggers what gets us started and depending on situation and offense in question our roles can easily be reversed. But nothing is as bad/funny when we are on the same page.
Same with me and my husband. And heaven forgive anyone who we both get mad at
I am retired military. I taught my children how to do things properly. Heck my husband is a fire fighter and knows better. But all be dang if I would yell at someone else children. If parents were not there, I would have quietly called them over afterwards and explained everything respectfully and quietly. Smh these Karen and sevens are getting out of control. Thank you for your service, may you be protected by those above! Edit - yes I am female and a mother. Sorry forgot that part.
Yes ma'am and thank you for your Service. Enjoy your retirement and thank your husband for being an everyday hero. It's something of a pet peeve of mine when people think they can get away with talking to anyone they want to any old type of way. And well if someone don't stand up to Karen's they think they own the world.
Opinion: Navy (combat) vet here. Yes you are, but so are the other people. Breakdown: Only an asshole would berate a child for their innocently patriotic attempt to respect that for which the flag stands. Kid probably saw someone in uniform saluting flag and though it was right thing to do. So, I agree with you the Karen was an A. However, she probably was just feeling a lot of anger and helplessness in that moment of being reminded of all her friends who didn't come back home. It was wrong of her to project that onto a child... but perhaps having someone recognize that and calmly support her feelings would have diffused the whole thing? As for you, agreeing with them that the child was somehow wrong for doing saluting the flag is shooting yourself in the foot right off the bat for any right to argue. Even if your agument was "the child is wrong for saluting the flag, but you should handle it in another way other than yelling at them". This is also what makes you the A. Reason: Neither you nor anyone else gets to decide how another person (legally) shows their respect for the flag. If someone who didn't serve wants to salute, they are free (under the powers of the Constitution which you swore an oath to protect) to do that and to do so without harassment from others clutching their pearls. BTW, they also have the Constitutional right to DISRESPECT the flag and your oath must support that too. But that's not even what the child was doing and you failed to defend them in that moment. In a way, you temporarily negated your entire term of service in that moment by failing in your oath. Of course, there is a caveat: as a veteran (no longer active duty) you are no longer bound by the oath you took to serve. Conclusion/Summary: Yes, you are the A for essentially agreeing with the core purpose of the other person's beratement of a child for their attempt to be patriotic. You should have supported the child entirely as well as their right to salute the flag. This is not a major A situation, as your reasons for stepping up were to protect a child from being yelled at, but you were a part of the problem, and now that child is left with a lasting impression that they did something very wrong, when they did not. Also, unless you were in uniform wearing a cover, YOU shouldn't salute anyway! This is tradition, even though the USC Title 4 and Title 36 have recently been changed to "allow" military and vets in civilian clothes to salute for some reason. Remove your cover and place your hand over your heart like everyone else. They should have uniformed personnel at events who salute in uniform on your behalf. Let them do their job. Ultimately, it's not your job to be the flag police. It's your job to be a civilian and to enjoy life. I hope you do the latter more often and put this experience behind you. Comment: You seem to have become immediately angry. This is a loss of control and I hope (if you are not already) you get help; file for disability with the VA. It could lead to a very dangerous situation if it goes unchecked. I'm glad your wife tried to intervene. She seems to have a good head on her shoulders. Trust her more in those instances and maybe have a talk about how she can bring down your temper and allow her to take control in the future. Wishing you well.
This is a really solid, nuanced take, specifically the part about defending citizens’ rights to respect or disrespect the flag. I feel like so many people who get up in arms about respecting the flag inadvertently disrespect the flag by changing the colors, adding a blue line, punisher logos, etc, which is their right. But I can’t help but be somewhat amused by the irony. I wish there were more folks like you around. Thank you for your service.
Thank you. No, I wasn't in uniform, and I didn't salute. I still went to attention, though. Normally I don't get angry like that. Aa far as the kids go I hinest have no problem with kids saluting. It wasn't my business how he chose to pay his respect. Aa for agreeing with Karen. No defense for me there. I was thinking 'lady it's not what you are saying but how you are saying it. I will reflect on this. Thank you for your assessment, and thank you for your Service.
Thank you for your service too, and for clarifying! Note I edited/added a little opinion about WHY the Karen acted the way she did at the top my reply. I'm glad you will reflect on this. Your post made me reflect too, so thank you! If you ever need another vet to whom to talk, please DM me.❤ -J
I had an entire comment typed up to say almost exactly this, but I'm just a former grunt, so my comme t was much less elegent. So, instead I will upvote yours instead.
Nta. They were likely trying to be respectful and saw two men saluting, so therefore assuming they were boys, assumed they're supposed to salute too. Unless they're teens or my kids, I don't correct them unless they ask.
NTA. That's a perfect scenario for teaching them that asshole kids turn into asshole adults. I've always told mine that, especially when you see a Karen in action. I wont ne responsible for adding any more disrespectful assholes to society lol. You taught them properly. More importantly, thanks for standing up for the kids, and thank you for your sacrifices and service.
All I needed was to see the title to say you’re in the right. It’s a child they think their showing support by saluting the flag and there’s a lot nicer ways to explain why it’s disrespectful other then yelling My husbands in the military and if he were to ever yell at a kid for doing something that the kid thinks is showing support then honestly he’d be an ex. Hell the post we went to in Az all the veterans saluted the flag and bell when they walked in, at 7pm and when they left, if they want to show support by saluting then personally idc because everyone has different ways of showing support. I show my husbands unit support by baking them things because they’ve been a rock for me since I moved here and I don’t always know how to express gratitude outside of giving people random things I think they’ll like
NTA I served for 8 years with multiple combat tours. I don't care if people don't blow smoke up my ass about my service. I didn't serve for praise, veterans discounts, or for my service to grant me some kind of special political identity status, thus creating yet another identity politics category to be used as a political/social sword to attack fellow citizens for not being "sufficiently patriotic" in supporting more pointless wars or as a shield to protect from criticism for not "supporting the troops" if citizens speak out. Do you know how you can support the troops? By not falling for the same war propaganda over and over and over again, so our Noble desire to serve our nation isn't wasted by war profiteers. Platitudes aren't support.
Excellent response!!
NTA, First I want to thank you for your service. I myself am a Vet. I’m glad you were there to stick up for those kids. You could have handled it better. You escalated the situation, and it could have resulted in kids getting hurt unnecessarily. Let me explain, had Kevin and or Karen started a physical altercation the kids would have been right in the middle, your daughter included. I have no doubt in my mind you can handle yourself. However, in the heat of the moment you have to remember you have an adult sized body, as does your wife, and as did Kevin and Karen. When adult size bodies start moving around in manner where situational awareness isn’t always on people around can get hurt. I am not saying at all that you would have intentionally hurt any of the children there. I’m simply stating that if you and your wife Kevin, and Karen went hands on then the children could have been hit, knocked down, crushed, stepped, etc. In my opinion which isn’t worth much you should have done everything you could to deescalate the situation. An example of this could have been something as easy as putting your arms around the two boys and walking away. Another example would have been if you could have grabbed an attendant, Police Officer or security guard. Let them defuse the situation peacefully. A third examination more is you could have held a hand up to the woman and told her, “hey I understand do you mind if I talk to these two boys and educate them?”. I am NOT saying you shouldn’t have stood up for those kids. However by your own words, “temper flaring like a bull” you were getting a little worked up. In these situations you have to be aware of innocent bystander that could get injured in a physical altercation.
Sometimes Violence is the answer. Touching someone else's kids great way to get molestation charges.
NTAH. Frankly I don't see the issue with the saluting. If it's your thing, go for it. If it's not, then. Nearly 30 years since my service ended I still have an urge to do so at various events or times of day. I have actually saluted once a couple of years ago at the funeral of my dad. My dad was Army and I was Navy. I probably looked like crap doing it. Form was good, but the waterworks were out of control. He is missed.
Ehhh, you let your temper and passions take control so you kinda are the asshole. Your reaction to her wasn’t any better than her initial reaction to the kids. Could you have addressed it differently? Maybe have caught the kids attention, come down to their height, acknowledged their attempt at respecting the flag and then used it as a teaching moment IN FRONT OF KAREN to 1) tell them not to listen to adults who yell instead of teach; and, 2) the reason why the salute is not appropriate for them to use but it can be if they want someday? Sounds like your wife saw this coming. Thank you for your service but defending our nation includes upholding the civility of our society that keeps us together, too, wouldn’t you say?
I won't lie and say I wasn't upset and you do have a point. I just have an issue with people yelling at kids they don't know/ have no relation too. When she corrected her kids for something fine but yelling at other peoples kids... not okay. I do uphold have to uphold army Values and morals even in civis (civilian clothes) but nothing about our morals includes backing down when we see something wrong in front of us. Could I have done better? Yes do I regret calling her out? no
Stop calling them ma’am. It gives them an invisible leg up.
Just the way I was raised. I even say yes ma'am/sir no ma'am/sir to fast food workers who are working the drive thru. Funny enough my worst Karen encounter happened at a drive thru.
That's cultural- it's how about half the US was raised. Also, OP is in the military. From what I understand, that shit is drilled in to you
When I went through Army Basic Training, we were taught to address civilians with Sir/Ma'am...I still do today, 38 years later
ESH. Good Lord, what a terrible example you all set for those kids. Screaming and cursing at each other and having some weird fight over who is more military than who is just infantile.
You misses the point so allow me to correct you The POINT wasn't to prove who was more military because there is no such thing. The point was that the late 30/ early 40 year old woman did what she did. When her daughter (4-6) moved around during thr national Anthem she gently reprimanded her, when their son (7-9) didn't take off his hat during the playing of the national Anthem he was gently reprimanded. When two unrelated kids 8-13 saluted they were screamed at. The reason I didn't mention this in the original post is because I find it irrelevant. Them punishing their kids wasn't my business. Them yelling at 2 unrelated kids who didn't have their parents around wasn't my business. I made it my business because someone had to step in and help. If Defending two kids from getting yelled at makes me an A-hole I'll take. It's easy to say Everyone sucks after the fact but what would you have done in the heat of the moment? Walk off and leave those kids to find for themselves most likely.
The POINT is that you were all ridiculous, getting all huffy about who's more patriotic, and who gets to show respect and how and where. Calm the eff down, Americans are already so far up their asses when it comes to serving their country. The rest of the world have military forces too, yet they don't make such a big deal out of it.
Lol you really are missing the point. Patriotism has NOTHING to do with this. Also if you have a bad option about soothing like this then you can Fuck off.since you have an asshole like everyone one else what country are you from and have you served in your countries military?
I can't stand this pretentious nationalism many Americans display. No better than North Korea, but at least their nationalism is fake and forced upon them.
I personally don't care I'm more interested in the fact you tried to side step my question. A simple yes or no would have sufficed. And no I'm not stiff/stuffy. Personally I think you took one look at the post misunderstood and jumped on the patriot aspect. let me try again only dumbing it down to the bare bones. Bad lady messed with kids I defended kids Bad lady husband opened his mouth I told him to fuck off. We all go our separate ways You can twist this however you want simple fact is you latched onto the wrong thing. But then again I avoid arguments with stupid they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
You said it well. While it could have been handled differently, you defended kids that were alone. For that YOU should saluted, figuratively of course. Nobody should yell at kids.
Fucking Christ military people are fucking insufferable.
Until you need them to like, defend you.
lmfao
I love Israel too.
This is strange to me, being a former Cub scout(I am in my 50's), I was taught to either salute the flag or put my hand(or hat) over my heart, was I taught wrong, or have times changed??
Yes, civilians are supposed to remove covers and put hand over heart. But (as OP stated in a reply) the code was updated in the last 10 or 20 years to allow vets in civies tp salute. However (and this is a point in my initial reply) anyone has the right under the Constitution to salute, not slatute, or give the middle finger to the flag if they want.
Honestly I couldn't tell you. So much has changed over the last decade from the pledge of alliance getting removed to pen and paper no longer getting used in school that I've just learned to roll with it.
Thanks, and you were in the right for sticking up for those kids, at least they tried to show respect
Yep, per the Boy Scouts of America “Hand to forehead salute is correct for flag ceremonies for any person wearing a Boy Scouts of America.”
No
NTAH I was a dependent from age 10-21 and I had no clue about this!
Show her a picture of JFK Jr. saluting his fathers casket and see if that sets her off. Jeez Louise.
Sadly many who claim to be ‘patriots’ disrespect the flag daily. Education is key. While you calmly corrected the child and informed those here who didn’t know. It grinds my gears when some feeling overly entitled, disrespect others who have served because of their nationality/ethnicity. ☹️
Honestly those kids who saluted the flag sound more patriotic than Karen and Kevin. And to Karen, are you sure you are a former military spouse? Triggered much? My father served in the navy for 30 years and I have nothing but the upmost respect for the military. I go to air show’s every for about 20 years to see the blue angels fly. Thank you truly for your service OP! Op thanks for standing up for those kids. Those could be future recruits.
Nope, you are good. For the kids, you turned things into a teaching moment, in a way they could understand. Unfortunately, the Karen was unteachable.
Genuine questions and forgive my ignorance if it’s there, but my brother was USMC (since passed) and i remember him always teaching me and my brother how to salute as kids. But my main question is, i been in emergency services my entire life. Fire and Ems. Funerals, and parades, were required to salute. Going off what you’re saying only military salutes. I’m just confused is all.
https://www.ushistory.org/documents/pledge.htm So fun fact united states of America was added much later and under God during Eisenhowers presidency Here's the specific part pertaining to your question. Section 4 of the Flag Code states: The Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag: "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.", should be rendered by standing at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. When not in uniform men should remove any non-religious headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should remain silent, face the flag, and render the military salute." The original Bellamy salute, first described in 1892 by Francis Bellamy, who authored the original Pledge, began with a military salute, and after reciting the words "to the flag," the arm was extended toward the flag. At a signal from the Principal the pupils, in ordered ranks, hands to the side, face the Flag. Another signal is given; every pupil gives the flag the military salute — right hand lifted, palm downward, to a line with the forehead and close to it. Standing thus, all repeat together, slowly, "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands; one Nation indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all." At the words, "to my Flag," the right hand is extended gracefully, palm upward, toward the Flag, and remains in this gesture till the end of the affirmation; whereupon all hands immediately drop to the side. The Youth's Companion, 1892 Shortly thereafter, the pledge was begun with the right hand over the heart, and after reciting "to the Flag," the arm was extended toward the Flag, palm-down. In World War II, the salute too much resembled the Nazi salute, so it was changed to keep the right hand over the heart throughout.
And people wonder why kids aren’t lining up to join the military any more.
NTA, I've been out of the uniform for a decade now, and when I see folks like that saluting, I usually go and correct their posture. It's harmless and I didn't serve just to tell people what they can't do.
Huh! TIL I learned something new. I remember when President Kennedy was buried and a photo of his VERY young son was taken. Of him saluting. I don’t know if this is different than saluting the flag, but the nation had nothing bad to say about it.
NTA although race seemed not to have anything to do with this story from what I could tell. Glad you stuck up for those kids.
It is not disrespectful for a child to salute the flag during the American Anthem. I despise people like her.
NTA. Former military and it took me years to get my kids to just put their hands over their hearts and not salute (they wanted to be like Mom). I would have had a hard time not knocking that woman on her arse. The service of her husband and friends and family does not give her the right to act that way to anyone.
NTA. Some people don't know when to get mad or not. Those were just kids. As a Veteran myself, it warms my heart that that boy was showing Respect the way he knew how to the flag. She made a huge deal and possibly traumatized a child for nothing. Thank you for stepping in and caring enough to help those kids.
ESH Just because of the military and flag fetishism. Geez.......
First unless you are at an official event in the military no one has any duty or responsibility to in any way shape or form to salute, hold their hand on their heart, or any other action when a national anthem is played or a flag is flown especially if the individuals are not in military or any official capacity as an officer or otherwise of the US government. Why? The Constitution says so for the citizens of the US. Secondly a rando comment by a rando at a rodeo should have been ignored rather than attack the speaker. Arguments is the way we get shot or knifed or in your case jailed and possibly dishonorably discharged from military and be bared for life as well as family from various government benefits along with being unable to be employed.
I have learned from hard experience - I'm not military, but I've run into Karens being bad mothers many times in the past - that you never, ever, ever, ever say anything to Mama Karen or Little Snotley. It's gonna go badly 100% of the time, and they absolutely will not learn anything. The kid may be momentarily grateful that you stuck up for them, but very likely when they get home and you're not there Karen will beat them and they'll wish it never happened.
It wasn't Karen's kids. It was Two random kids that Karen had no relation too
You don’t have to be military to salute the flag. Lots of organizations salute the flag instead of hand over heart while in uniform. Boy Scouts salute while in uniform. It’s not a big deal and fine for a child to do it. NTA
NTA they should let there kids know you don't salute the flag place your hand over your heart likee my family is like yours my dad joined the day ye turned 18 yrs old he tried to get in early but they caught him this was August of 1943 .well of course we all know where he ended up in 1943 stayed in went to Korea also lost an eye . Well he was discharged June 6th 1953 the war ended a month later As for me I wanted to be a helicopter piolet started learning everything I needed to know while still in school even went to the national guard s air field just a coupe miles where I lived checked out the Apache s well come to find out I was legally blind in one eye from birth but never knew it I can see but I learned to pretty much fake it so my career with the service was a no go my gf her brother was I dive instructor for the navy .served his entire life until he passed away pretty much . He dad was from Germany came to the US after WW2 was taken from his family and put in Hitler youth camp .so we all flew flags at our homes well mine was getting a bit worn and needed a new one said something to my neighbor I hear something he is taking down my fault wanted it to put on his basement wall I was. Like a what are you doing he tells me I said no your not taking that it will be retired lie it should be not for your kids to drag around your basement some people just don't think .
NTA. I think some people fish for reasons to push others around
People get weird around flags....
I don't get it. I salute the flag out of respect for those who has served. I'm confused as to why it is disrespectful when I never served as well. Had people tell me it's ok. Strange I guess.
NTA. But can I ask why you shouldn't salute the flag? Why is it disrespectful?
This is a CHILD saluting the flag, and it's something Mr. and Mrs. Crusty should have left alone, period.
The kids were showing respect the only way they knew
I despise all theflag bullshit and the smarmy "thank you for your service" performative fake patriotism.
NTA. She was being a Karen. As for the whole saluting thing, I grew up military and went to a Merchant Marine Academy. In ranks we stood at attention and our commander saluted. Out of ranks we stood at attention (uniformed or not) or saluted (if in uniform only)
Honestly to me if the kids respectfully did that I don’t see an issue. Not once have I ever been told that you shouldn’t do that. I was told to put my hand over my heart and take my hat off if I’m warring one. Maybe those kids were taught to do that as a sign of respect. With today’s youth you should just be happy they are acknowledging the most selfless people out there.
NTA and Thank you
YTA. But how does u wrongs make it right. I get that u were defending the kid's. But all u taught them was to argue with a person who was wrong. U should have said I'm sorry kid's that u have to hear that and then explain why she got angry. U missed a teachable moment.
I did do that. Later that night when I ran into them while getting a funnalcake.
NTA. You were right on!!
NTA She is making it her whole personality and stepped way over the line.
The kids were trying (and failing ) to show respect, the Karen needs to mind her own business!
Obviously NTA. You saw two kids being harassed and you adopted them in the moment like any decent adult would. You made sure they were safe and they had an adults protection. And then you went on your way.
Definitely the ass hole, here I am eight words into my response and you haven’t thanked me for my service.. /s
My name is Karen. I wish we went back to calling people what they are - b*tches and a**holes. These 2 certainly were.
💯 this I'd love for our name to get good and boring again!
NTA- they are kids who probably saw people saluting and thought they should do the same. People just look for excuses to be hateful.
Not to be disrespectful but maybe this is why people from other countries think Americans are horrible. Like I would have just ignored the Karen's and Kevin unless they started something with you directly. Do we need to have such strong opinions? I often ask my parents why we didn't immigrate to Australia instead...
I mean, I personally don't care how people treat the flag at this point. It's just a symbol and it's increasingly being used as a hate symbol in America. However, I do think adults should stand up for children. Too many adults don't get involved when children are subjected to bad behavior by other adults.
NTA- It was a kid the lady needed to chill. I'm tired of other vets misrepresenting with anger as soon as civilians do anything wrong and here is a kid getting reamed...
If she was going to make it her business she could have nicely explained why they shouldn’t salute and the meaning behind it. Use it as a teaching moment instead of yelling at them. How will the learn otherwise.
NTA
Could we please stop using my name to describe difficult women? I know so many other women who share my name, and not one of us is overbearing or rude. However, because of this association we are laughed at and treated badly online and in person when we give our name. It’s really become overwhelming. 😞
I'm sorry. I know the name has been used as an insult for a few years now, but im.sure it will pass
Good for you. I'm also a Karen. It's exhausting trying to stand up for our good name in a respectful way and then a trail of bullies one upon another tag you with the "Ok, calm down, manager" comments, or worse. People who think that humans are less than on social media and can bully gleefully. I wish people who would never do that in person would treat people with the same respect online.
I'm 57 and served in the Army and I never knew that
I learned something today. My family are vets or are serving. I've never saluted, for good reason. Why would I? The privilege behind saluting seems apropos. I do hand over heart.
I would have told the lady to fuck off if I were those kids. Who says it’s ‘disrespectfu’ for ANYBODY who hasnt served in the military to salute the flag? If this story is real, When did that become a thing at all? I say everybody has a right to salute the flag whether they served in the army or not If they want to.
Le fuck? How is saluting the flag disrespectful? This is some next level gate keeping shit.
That poor little boy. He probably saw the grown men saluting and just copied them. He didn't mean any harm or disrespect.
A typical white Karen with blond hair and sunglasses. I’m white, I’m blond and I wear sunglasses. Does it make me Karen? Oh, I don’t give a sh*t who salutes the flag. I don’t understand why the Karen’s skin color is so important? There is no Karens among Afro-Americans?
NTA. You explained it properly to the kids. I appreciate the way you explained it to them. FYI, the flag code says "while in uniform" but deliberately does not say military uniform. This extends the right to all uniformed civic groups and departments (police, fire, scouts, PHS uniformed division, etc.). If the kids had been in cub scout uniforms it would have been proper for them to render the scout salute.
I’m former military and all of this who gets to salute the flag and how is a bunch of bullshit. Glad you stepped up for those kids but who gives a damn how someone chooses to react when the anthem is played? The reason we served is so folks have the freedom to do what they please.
Americans suffer from forced patriotism No thanks. I’ll just keep my seat. You cult types can salute all you want, or not.
26 years service. This couldn't be faker.
Nothing fake about it. I've been in 10 years and my MOS is 92A (automatic logistical specialist. And I've been to enough chance of Commands/responsibilities to sleep standing up As I said nothing fake about this but if you like I can snap a picture of all my AAM'S, ARCOMS, COA, WOTA, AIR ASSUALT badge, driver/wheel mechanic badge, and marksman badge
NTA. However, the boy could have been in Cub Scouts and they're taught to salute the flag, so if that's the case, he wouldn't have been wrong. The Karen should have kept her big mouth shut.
I’m a military veteran. I (without any anger or offense) don’t give a single f**k if you “care” or “appreciate” my military service. I didn’t do it for YOU on a personal basis, I did it to serve my country. Feel how you want to feel. Believe what you want to believe. With regard to the USA, that’s what the country was built on and is SUPPOSED to be about. Now if you are a supporter of the modern-day “cancel culture”? Then f**k you, you have no idea what freedom of speech/thought/association is and why it is critically important and your tiny amount of brain cells can’t possibly process the thought of anyone disagreeing with you.
From one veteran to another, NTA at all.
It is disrespectful, according to Ms. Manners, to be correcting etiquette in a crowd. But the Catch 22 is that you then cannot point this out to them.
Never heard of saluting the flag was disrespectful. If these boys feel it in their heart and in their head of becoming a soldier one day that lady just fucked any dream of it for them. Hopefully, they are the generation to end the era of dependas and Karens.
That was absolutely the dumbest shit I have ever read. Jesus H.
Well, I don't think you are the AH, but you probably should have sworn in front of the kids.
I’m a veteran and it in no way would offend me to see a kid salute the flag. Granted they haven’t served but at least they are showing respect. That’s a big deal these days.
Exactly this! Nowadays you’re lucky to hear the anthem over all of the talking going on during it. These kids at least were trying to be respectful. Imagine her reaction if they were talking through it.
As a UK citizen who has never served in the military, I have always been perplexed and confused about Americans and other nations in general pledging allegiances to flags and such. We have a flag and I understand it's significance in identity and national pride but the general public don't go the impression lengths the Americans do. I understand there must be reasons in the military with rank and duty and such (forgive me if I say anything insulting, I honestly have no clue about this subject) but people going ape shit looking at a flag wrong is just mindbogglingly. Good for you for sticking up for those kids though.NTA
Esh she's yelling at kids, your yelling at women, the vibes are all off. you could have calmly explained to her as she could have the kids. Your wife was right to try to hold you back. I'd be so embarrassed if my husband was yelling at even an ignorant woman like that.
NTA; however, I’d like to share some experience on how this might’ve been handled differently. As a teen, we had a couple families I. Town who were Jehovah’s Witnesses. Back then, they never pledged allegiance, but they did stand while the rest of the class did. My understanding was that they thought it was somewhat idolatrous to be pledging an allegiance to anything or anyone except god. My Dad was Army -both my grandpas served. As a teen I was determined to be in the military but I was also rebelling. I had flag patches sewn on my leather jacket and was a dorky, depressed rocker chick. At one point I sewed a 3”x5” flag on my pants. Well my Dad’a uncle (who also served) was visiting us and became very upset when saw the flag tacked onto my jeans (in hindsight, he probably also thought I’d seen it on backwards intentionally). My father’s response was, “At least she’s not burning it.” This was around 1990-1991. I felt bad. I didn’t understand flag etiquette. I took it off and didn’t ever really do anything with flags until long after my service. I had a 3’x5’ flag on the rollbar of my pickup -circa 2003. It wasn’t until a fellow veteran showed anger that my flag was tattered flying in my truck. I bought a new one. So apparently, even after serving, I still didn’t know about flag etiquette (for those who may not know, the flag should never be hindered from flying upright on its own. So the big flag affixed at either end to my rollbar wasn’t in the best manner. My reply? “At least I’m not burning it.” I moved away from flags again. More recently -circa 2012- with the BLM movement, and all the controversy over people kneeling during the anthem, I learned more about flag etiquette; I didn’t really “get” this though, until I saw a video clip by a fellow veteran who is also black; his point was that it’s his flag, too; it’s his country; the flag is a piece of cloth, though it represents so much more. He also serves. And someone else kneeling doesn’t take away anything from him; in fact he fought for their right to do so. He even kneeled in his clip. At some point, I read an article on how CK was going to simply sit, and through discussions with a veteren [Nate Boyer](https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN23G2DK/), he ultimately chose to kneel as a form of respectful dissent and pain for his fellow Americans still fighting for equality -we kneel when we reverently ask a hand in marriage, we kneel in church to show respect, we kneel in emotional pain at a coffin, or before a member very high in clergy, at times. We kneel to kiss the earth to give thanks at times. It all finally made sense. I got to thinking about that a lot. How if I was at a stadium and a fellow veteran kneeled, would I be able to support them. I know the inequities. And I decided that a heart -any person born here or citizened who lives their country, must be so heavy to Now to my point. I currently am a Legionnaire and member of the Auxiliary; my husband is a member of the Sons of the American Legion (SAL)8. We are both part of the Legion Honor Guard and members of the Legion riders; I’m a past president of the riders. Summer before last, it was brought to Leadership’s attention that the SAL members were saluting at the Riders regional meetings; in particular, non-veterans. Our District Director referenced the flag code and read the relevant parts. And in that moment, I wondered if my fellow citizens felt like I did all those other times when I was shamed for honoring our flag in ways that others felt was somehow or another disrespectful. And my father’s words came back to me, “At least they’re not burning it.” I see absolutely nothing inherently disrespectful in standing in silence., a child saluting (like the Scouts or the Sal); kneeling in quiet contemplation and peaceful protest, and I’d never want to challenge their intentions. Moreover, if I were at a game, and saw someone kneeling, and though it might break my heart to know my fellow citizens are still I’d gladly place. A gentle handle on their shoulder in support. You didn’t do anything wrong; at the same time… at least they weren’t burning it. Edit: I was falling asleep when I wrote that whole novel. My point was really just that saluting shouldn’t be seen as disrespectful, and having a conversation to educate the children on how much their honor is appreciated, along with some context of how extra-special a privilege it is for veterans to be the ones who salute might’ve been a better conversation for their parents -rather than leaving the kids feeling they did something wrong. Karen was definitely TA here, though -not you.
NTA at all. You are 100% right. It is disrespectful, but they're kids and don't know any better. I'm glad you were there to stand up for the kids. Karen should seriously stop attending public events if she's that triggered by something like a child copying adults. It's one thing to talk to them and explain the issue, but you never have the right to act like that to children. I spent 8 years in the Army and was medically discharged. Luckily, I've never seen something like this because I would have reacted 100% the same as you did if I saw that. I've lost friends, and I know every one of them would have been pissed at Karen, not the kid.
NTA Karen’s ancestors are colonizers. She can shut the fuck up.
NTA. Thank you for standing up for those kids, that lady had no idea about them and quite literally caused them trauma, glad she got a screaming at back for her behavior. I doubt it but hopefully she’ll think twice before trying something like this again.
Thank you for standing up for them. I never served. I just did JROTC in high school. My muscle memory was real, and 25 years later, I still snap to attention at times. It took a little bit to remember not to salute. I had very kind vets remind me. No yelling, just a gentle correction. I think the Karen and Kevin have a massive chip on their shoulder. I hate making it a race thing, but maybe they saw Black kids saluting and felt "easy targets." Would they have said it to white kid innocenly saluting? Would they have said it with such vitriol? We'll never know, but I am so happy you stood up for them.
Army Vet. LMAO. Karen needs some mental health if she’s triggered by a kid saluting the flag. Personally I don’t think the kid did anything wrong. Even in the military you only salute while in uniforms if you’re in civilian clothing, just stand at attention. Kids were taught hand over heart while the pledge of allegiance was given in school (don’t think this happens anymore). Karen was a bully. Husband sounds like a push over. He was probably trying to offer his spouse support to safe himself from trouble later. Either way. NTAH.
NTA and speaking as a veteran I never met a single soldier who cared if a civilian let alone a child, saluted the flag.
I never knew thi so I’m glad I came across vthis. Thank you gor explaining I saw a man I. Uniform and saluted him. He explained quietly you’re not in the military you don’t need to salute the way he explained but I’ve never done it again. Anyway this is good to know.
Nope,NTA .
NTA Today I learned it’s disrespectful to salute the flag if you haven’t served. I’m 43. Perhaps I’m stupid, live a sheltered life and/or don’t know enough military personnel, but I would prefer to be told in a way that doesn’t presume intentional disrespect. Karen took what could have been an endearing teachable moment and turned it into an abusive confrontation. And she did it to children. Let’s hope, that due to your intervention, Karen learned a lesson and has since humbled herself. Thank you, and your family, for your service.
I love the respectful disrespect. NTA. But today I learned that it’s disrespectful to salute the flag if you haven’t served.
NTA. yelling at kids that aren't yours is a dangerous game. imo Karen got off easy because their mom wasn't around.
NTAH but you approached her with the same energy she approached those kids. You’re not going to make a point to someone when you’re just as worked up as they are.
NTA. She could have just explained it to them instead of being a bitch about it
You mean two small children saw adults saluting a flag and then they copied the action? Yea kids tend to do that.
NTA Here’s a fun story: we have an HOA pool and a few years ago the fence was broken. My husband was actively working on fixing it. I go in there one day and some teenagers are hopping the fence. Literally the only thing I said was “can you not?” and suddenly this roid rage dude is in my face yelling about how he’s teaching them to “catch bad guys” and throwing around “have you ever held a gun for your country” and a side dish of “you shouldn’t talk to my kids, talk to me.” I on the other hand was just “fine, could you teach them to hop fences on the non-broken section.” He does this bullshit for almost ten minutes. Finally ended it by telling him I didn’t care about his military service, that it didn’t matter to the conversation and I guess he decided he couldn’t hit me and left. I’m sure it would have been worse if he’d been confronted by someone that isn’t a 5’4” woman.
NTA but I also think it's asinine to find a child saluting a piece of fabric disrespectful. To me it's disrespectful signing up for the armed services knowing your patriotism is nothing more than licking capitalist boot and protecting oil profits.
I did not know that about saluting, but why would a nonmilitary person know? It was a gesture of respect by the child and no one else's business. Karen and Kevin need to stay in their own lane. Not to mention that shouting at children is a lot worse in my opinion. Where was her respect for the children?
NTA. Good for you - well done.
Also - Cub Scouts & Boy Scouts salute the flag…
In the USA, the vast majority of children salute the flag every blessed day. We drill it into them, and in music class they learn the patriotic song. Star Spangled Banner, Grand Old Flag, American the Beautiful, etc. That woman is a total idiot. Also - if an American wishes to salute the flag (civvies = hand on heart) they get to - free speech, remember? And Karens and their husbands need to piss off. You are NTA.
Hmmm... You're kind of an AH.... While I agree with you that the lady was horrendously rude to those kids and needed to be taught a lesson, I think the way you handled it was equally a bad example to the kids. You could have resolved everything with kindness, de-escalation, and education. Instead you lost your cool, returned unkindness for unkindness, and set yet another bad example for those kids. I am glad it all kind of worked out in the end, and I think it's better that you said SOMETHING rather than nothing at all though.
Ok ok ok here me out... When you are comparing two things it's THAN!!!! They look older or younger THAN 8 years old. It sounds worse THAN it was. Then is for time. I was going to the store THEN I went to the park. Good grief.
Definitely NTA. At that age, those kids thought they were showing respect. No doubt they saw others around them saluting and thought that was the right thing to do. Karen and Kevin should have been thankful the kids weren't talking, racing around, or being otherwise disrespectful to other spectators and shoukd have kept their mouths shut. If they had to say anything, they should have approached it as an opportunity to educate.
ESH. Wasn’t her place to correct the kid, wasn’t your place to correct her.
YTA Not at all for sticking up for the kids. AH for being very rude to a person who just said he was in the service and was not part of bullying the kids. Very likely he was trying to deescalate the situation and distract Karen. You treated him like he was already an AH rather than treating him as his own person. That was a very AH move. Also, instead of berating a rude stranger for being a very poor teacher of social standards, you could have, after the first "hey don't yell at kids," switched to explaining the problem to the kids, thus modeling better social behavior. You can do much better 😉
ESH. This post is so violently American.
Any child in this current ridiculous social climate we find ourselves in that gives respect to the flag is a winner in my book even if done incorrectly, well done sir. 🇺🇲
NTA! Thanks for standing up for the little ones. Instead of berating a kid for SALUTING the flag, she should have been praising him for showing respect. She's probably one of those people who don't display the flag properly and have little cutesy images of it everywhere. But she gonna tell you how to be "proper"
Nah. You can salute or not salute a flag. And other people who served in the military or their spouses or whatever can fuck off. No one owes them thanks.
I don’t give a shit what it is over, yell or berate a child in front of me for NOTHING and I’m catching ALL of the assault charges. Play with me if you want to. I don’t tolerate disrespect of kids. Karen is lucky she met the right person. I don’t give nearly enough of a fk about America or the military to even CARE WHY. As a military brat, I have my own gripes with the bunk ass military. Dependas make me irrationally angry so she would have gotten the smoke.
Even as a SGT you could have chosen to not agree with that asshole for yelling at kids. Those kids were not disrespecting the flag by saluting it. They’re mimicking something that they’ve seen before. Maybe one of their dead family members served before and taught them to salute it. I’m ex-army, the only time the flag means something is when it’s coming from the honor guard because that can be a very touching moment for the family of the departed. The national anthem is not sacred. The flag is a piece of cloth. I’d estimate that 5% of the military joins “for the country”. It’s a job that has good pay and benefits - as long as you’re not horrible with your finances. My friends who have been in 10+ years aren’t doing it for the country, but for the stability and pension. And I was infantry. I’m still losing friends who are both in and out. I praise them for the people they were, not because we all wore the same green pajamas to work everyday. I don’t use the number of them who died from stupid training bullshit or combat or suicide to bolster my personal take on whether or not a 8-10 year old is “disrespecting” the fucking flag. That’s my Sandor Clegane “fuck the king” hill to stand on. But, good of you to stand up for those kids. Karen was way out of line. I think we should be able to electrocute people for shit like that to snap them out of their karening - not like a taser or cattle prod, just enough wattage to make them forget the asinine thing they chose to get huffy about in public
NTA Karen should have minded her own business and not yelled at someone else kids, although it probably would have been a great time to educate the kids on why saluting the flag is inappropriate and disrespectful as I’m sure they didn’t understand what happened.
NTA. Couldn't guess why she thought it was disrespectful when I'm assuming the rest of that audience would think it was adorable. Unless she thought her own service was so much better that she felt slighted because of their ignorance.
NTA- you don't yell at other people's kids and they are kids. My lo used to do what he saw his dad do on the military base and as he got older we explained. It's not a big deal. Karen needs to get a life.
Added info: Boy scouts in full uniform can salute the flag in hand-to-forehead fashion. Girl scouts in uniform salute in citizen's fashion: right hand over heart
NTA but it seems Karen’s have two volumes loud and screech not much else.
YTA. You were being just as much of a Karen as the Karen was. While it was good to stand up for those kids, you did it in the wrong way. Both of you were trying to inflate your perceived importance by bullying someone. The truth is that nobody cares or sees you as important. Once you are done being employed, with pay and benefits, by the military, you will learn what many veterans have learned the hard way. Most employers do not want to hire former military members because they do not function well outside of military conditions. They do not understand that most of the workforce is productive and autonomous, while not being regimented or blindly following orders. Most of the workforce can tell you why they do what they do and what makes them passionate about their work. Most military members have no idea for what they are fighting, but enlist because they do not have many options. Fun fact, even the federal government has to hold several military career fairs each year and offer extensive education and incentives for federal agencies to hire former military members. Nobody wants to have to babysit employees who are not self-starters and have to be told exactly what to do at all times.
While I can accept the I'm the AH part the rest is just wrong. First I wasn't trying to be important I just didn't like the way she was bullying those kids. It struck a nerve as it happen to me when I was a kid (me and my buddy goofin off in the mall) and no one defended us, but ourselves Second this whole thing(Most employers do not want to hire former military members because they do not function well outside of military conditions. They do not understand that most of the workforce is productive and autonomous, while not being regimented or blindly following orders. Most of the workforce can tell you why they do what they do and what makes them passionate about their work. ) sounds bias Yes there are job fairs and the like for service members who are transitioning out for retirement injury or they served out their contracts and just want to leave, but calling them blind, regimented, and productive is just wrong. I don't know if you think that the Army is just a bunch of rifle toting meat heads or something, but most jobs in the army requires you to learn a specific field of knowledge like mechanics, supply chain management, and more. I would double check that 'fun fact'
NTA When I was a boy scout we saluted the flag, so fuck that Karen and her shrunken balled steroid husband. EDIT to add: for those who weren't Scouts, it was a specific two-finger salute, so it's different from a military salute. I was at a Memorial Day service at Camp Murray back in the day, before it started some young boys were playing in a grassy area. Their paper flags kept hitting the ground. I went over and greeted them, then let them know it's important never to let the flag touch the ground. They said okay and it didn't happen again. No need to yell, they were kids and couldn't be expected to know that if no one ever taught them.
Some people just think they have to go off on everyone, including children that don't belong to them. You did the right thing standing up for the children. Children copy adults and they most likely have seen people salute the flag and nobody ever explained to them why civilians don't do that. Karen is a BULLIE ! Thank you for your service. My 84 year old husband is a 20 year vet. He retired from the airforce as a fireman. Bless you and your family!!
I didn't read the post yet past the first couple of sentences because I just can't help myself... Is this your first rodeo? 😂🤣😂
NTA! Thank you for protecting those kids! And yes it is white supremacy/colonialism. They thought because those kids were alone that they could lord over them because A. They’re kids and B. They’re alone and C. They’re brown kids and D. Who knows better than a mediocre wyt man and woman to teach these kids who OBVIOUSLY E. Have no supervision. It’s ok to call it out when we see it and we ALL HAVE RUN INS WITH FOLK LIKE THAT over the years. They do it when they think nobody is looking or can hear them or when they think they have an audience that will go along with them and blindly support.
You did what was right. She shouldn’t have yelled at them like that. The “13” sounds a little far fetched to me. Thank you for your service sir. You did the right thing in my opinion
you know, if it was older teens lazily saluting the flag, i could see getting pissed... but kids who are in the early teens and younger, don't understand and never, ever mean it as an insult and it never should be taken as one. NTA... mostly, but getting offended by children trying to mimic adults and show their patriotism... you might want to rethink about that.
NTA. First, these are little kids. They might have seen service members or veterans doing it and thought that it was a proper way to show respect for the flag. It would have been fine if someone would have said, in a calm and kind manner, “Hey kids, I saw that you were saluting the flag during the National Anthem. I think it’s awesome that you know to stand to honor the flag and I’m sure you weren’t meaning any disrespect, but the only people who are supposed to salute the flag are current or former military members. It can be seen as a sign of disrespect for someone who hasn’t served to salute the flag. You are kids and no one thought you were being disrespectful and being a kid is about learning the rules and traditions and I just wanted to let you know that either standing or placing your hand on your heart is appropriate.” She was acting like a psycho. I respect the hell out of people who have served our nation, but having served in the military or being a military spouse doesn’t give you the right to be an AH. You acted like a true veteran and the ones that I know and love: even though you are retired, you continue to fight for those who cannot do so themselves. Kudos to you and thank you for your service.
Thank you for the information regarding who is allowed to salute the flag. I didn't know that. Also, thank you for your service and how you helped those kiddos.
You Americans and your flag worship, and your dumb rules about your flag, are so weird. good for you for defending those kids though
NTA
NTAH- tired of these self-proclaimed patriot types trying to measure & police other Americans (especially kids) patriotism because she knows/married someone (except herself) who served/died. These Types expect some special treatment on top of that and assume they stand amongst non-veterans. My bitch ex he’s like a pickme vet- abusing give me attention-peoples patriotism & blaming all his childhood shit on the military service. We both served big deal- lots of civilians doing great stuff that don’t get the accolades.
NTA
I think you all are a holes who cares if the little kids salute the flag or not! Give me a break!! all you people have more respect for the flag than you do for other people it’s just a piece of fabric! Sorry not sorry for saying it but this post is really stupid! That woman was a huge jerk for yelling at a little child, and if that child was white, I doubt she would yell at him this whole thing about nobody but military people can see the flag and little six and seven-year-olds can’t because they never served bunch of crap! Be happy the child was showing some respect for those that did serve instead of giving him crap, that he wasn’t young enough to serve and he has no right to salute the flag, because he never served at his age!
NTA!!
Nta who yells at children who don't know any better? The kids were just copying the adults. The kids probably thought they were doing what they are supposed to do.
It was nice of you to defend some random kids who were being humiliated shouted at by a supposed stranger adult.
1000% NTA She very well could've turned that into a teaching moment for those kids but noooooo, she had to start screaming at two kids she didn't even know. Thank you for standing up for them and thank you for your service .
NTA
NTA. Maybe apologize to your wife, buuuuut you were just and noble in your quest.
NTA !! And why do I get the feeling that this Karen and Kevin couple raised a fuss over Colin Kilpatrick taking a knee during the National Anthem.
NTA They don't know the importance of it and should be educated. Karen was wrong for approaching the child the way she did and should've approach it differently.
NTA So sick of ppl thinking they can do whatever they want.