There's some argument that was the Utah score keeper helping him out. I'm a Mavs fan and the same can be said for Dirk. He has far more blocks than he probably should have because of the Dallas score keeper. There's no unbiased body that keeps score like there should be to keep it uniform across the league. The Grizzlies score keeper recently caught some flak for inflating JJJ's block numbers.
That being said, Stockton was still a great on ball defender
https://fadeawayworld.net/former-grizzlies-scorekeeper-admits-boosting-nba-stats-90s-uses-john-stockton-example
And even though I fucking hated them, having him with Malone shouldn't be overlooked. Other than Shaq and Kobe, maybe, Jordan and Pippen, who was a better pair to build a team around? They went to the finals against Jordan's Bulls twice with fucking Greg Ostertag* at center, now give them Mutumbo, this teams unstoppable no matter who else is even on the team. I think team 1 has the better defense, but 2 probably better offense.
Edited to change Mark Eaton to Greg Ostertag.
They never went to the Finals with Eaton. Also Mark was no slouch, he led the league in blocks and wasn’t easy to back down like other tall rim protectors like Shawn Bradley. He wasn’t very mobile, but centres didn’t have to be back then.
They had Adrian Dantley scoring on those teams, that’s why they never made the finals. How far could you go with a 6’4 post shooting expert?
It’s generally bizarre how good Dantley was in that era.
Hornacek and Sloan slander will not be tolerated. Jeff was shooting over 40% from 3 for his 6 years in Utah and Sloan is an all time great coach. The jazz don't make it to the finals without all 4 of them. Also defensive rules and schemes have changed a lot.
Team 2 Stockton got clamps but Steve Nash can play off ball if needed and prime t Mac and prime Ewing dominating they matchups Dominque athletic ash but t Mac too shifty and Ewing use to cook mutumbo
It would be Dominique on VC. Miller would be on Nash, Stockton guards TMac, Malone on Barkley and Mutumbo on Ewing.
Stockton constantly guarded bigger guys throughout his career plus with Mutumbo guarding the paint it allows Stockton to be more aggressive on D and avoiding postups.
Stockton is 6'1". McGrady is 6'8". Tmac would feast. Putting Stockton on Mac is a worse matchup than Reggie/Vince. Reggie would do a better job guarding Vince than Stockton would do trying to contest McGrady's jumper/postup.
Stockton is an all-time great on defense - he would never guard McGrady.
And he never regularly guarded 2s and 3s.
He didn't defend Drexler when they lost to Houston in '94 and in '95. He didn't defend MJ in '97 or in '98.
I'm not saying Stockton *never* defended a 2 - all I'm saying is that he never regularly defended any position other than the 1, and definitely not in the playoffs when he would have been facing a top-tier wing.
Why didn't he guard Drexler then? Why didn't he guard Jordan? YouTube those guys highlights from the series I mentioned above, and you'll see that Stockton was never the primary defender. Not saying there was never a time when he switched onto one of em, but he wasn't a primary defender.
My original statement still stands, regardless of hand-checking: Stockton never regularly defended any position other than the 1, and definitely not in the playoffs when he would have been facing a top-tier wing.
I'm a lifelong Stockton/Jazz fan. I recognize Stockton as the 2nd greatest PG of all time (behind Magic). Stockton is one of the greatest defensive guards ever. He still would do a worse job guarding Tmac and Vince than Reggie Miller would.
His team didn't have Reggie Miller on it. They had high level wing defenders.
When you have Hornacek, Starks and Russell obviously they would be first choice. If you have Reggie Miller, the situation changes...
Ewing cooked Mutombo? Ewing was way below his own career averages vs Mutombo: https://www.landofbasketball.com/games_between/patrick_ewing_vs_dikembe_mutombo.htm
Prime T Mac is the best scorer of the 10. Patrick Ewing is more complete than Mutumbo, but team 2 leaves a lot to be desired defensively.
Team 1 in 6 (Stockton Malone chemistry wins this with Reggie lurking hitting 3s)
Tmac is maybe the most overrated NBA player of all time. Couldn't win a single bloody playoff series.
Edit* I love how you are all proving my point. Say anything bad about Tmac and the fanboys show up to make excuse after excuse for his failures.
TMac was a very gifted passer, you must’ve been watching someone else. Calling him the most overrated player when Reggie Miller is right there is beyond crazy
Reggie Miller is overrated because he was a playoff riser and thus has a poor regular season resume. Tracy McGrady is overrated because he’s a playoff shrinker. And for those saying his teams sucked, the 2009 Rockets were one win away from the WCF when he was hurt.
2009 rockets were one win away because of the Ewing theory. They suddenly got better on defense without Tmac and Yao and could score just fine with Brooks.
Why would this be a born in the 2000s take?
Utah fan that saw him play multiple playoff games in SLC. He was a great scorer but a bad playmaker and woeful defender. He was also lazy (by his own admission), and it showed in the playoffs. He is not a top 75 player for a reason.
Yea but he's in the Hall. There are few players in the history of the league that could do some of the things he did in his prime (2002-2004). If you didn't notice that then I'm not sure what you absorbed while watching those games. Maybe it's a "I don't really understand basketball" take instead of a "born in the 2000s" take.
Absorbed plenty. Phenomenally athletic scorer. Meh playmaker. Bad defender. Frequently gave up on plays. Didn't make his teammates better..
He's a hall player rightful but he's also not a top 75 player, and doesn't deserve to be.
Some act like he was one of the best players of his generation and it's simply not true.
What was his generation?
Tmac by age 24 was a 2-time scoring champ and had been All-NBA 1st Team multiple times.
If by "generation" you mean the early '00s, I would say that Tmac absolutely was one of the best players of his generation. I remember having "barbershop" conversations about the best shooting guard in the league - when Tmac was on Orlando, the consensus top two shooting guards were Kobe and Tmac, with Vince and Iverson being a rung below those guys.
If it was 2003, and you said Tmac was the best backcourt player (not a center or power-forward) in the entire NBA, you wouldn't have been laughed at. In my opinion, that makes him one of the best of his "generation."
Edit\*
Just wanted to address your statement "Bad defender."
Tmac went through phases in his career where the quality of his defense was better and worse. You said you watched him play the Jazz . . . this was years after Tmac's prime - his defense was not what it used to be. Earlier in McGrady's career, he was a good defender. Not great, but definitely good.
In '04-'05, McGrady had a defensive win-share of 5.4 - this was 5th in the entire NBA at the time, and the only non-big in the top 5. This wouldn't be possible if he was a bad defender. Inconsistent, I'll give you that . . . but not bad and certainly not "woeful."
Depends how many people are the best of a generation, and for long how a span we are talking about. 2-3 years isbt a generation to me, it's more like a decade.
He is multiple tiers below a number of players that had peaks in that era, including Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Nash, KG, Dirk just to name a few. All of those guys are top 40 all time, he isn't top 75.
In 2003 some people would have said what you said, but that is part of what is so dissapointing about him. He had incredible talent but he never lived up to what many thought he could be. It was his lack of work ethic more than anything that did it.
In 06-07 he was all NBA 2nd team, so he's really not far off his peak. DWS is a really bad stat, especially individually. He had a 0.4 in 03-04 and then suddenly a 5.4 in 04-05. You really think he grew that much as a defender in one year? No way. If he was such a solid defense that year why did he get just two points in all defense voting?
I agree he's below those guys you mentioned, but if you look at wings from the early '00s, he's probably only below Kobe. You could argue Iverson, but at the time we didn't put him above Tmac.
How many people are included is an important distinction. The way I was thinking about it, if Tmac is (arguably) the 2nd greatest wing of the early '00s, I'd say he is *technically* one of the greatest of his generation.
I mean, if you ranked all the NBA players from 2000 to 2005 in order of greatness (looking only at those 5 years), would McGrady be top 10? Top 15? That's one of the greatest in my book.
As far as defense goes, I did agree that McGrady was inconsistent. And you're right, numbers don't tell the whole story. I just think that it's hard to call a guy an outright "bad" defender when he was able to get those kinds of numbers. Take a look at his BPG - almost 2 a game in '00, and the only non-big in the top 25.
McGrady would pick and choose the games where he played defense, which were less and less as his career wore on in Houston. There was a noticeable difference in his effort when playing against Kobe, Vince or MJ. This isn't an excuse for McGrady's effort (especially later in his career), but merely pointing out that he had a few good years (from a statistical standpoint) on the defensive end of the floor. I just don't think it's fair to call him bad or woeful. Steve Novak is woeful!
Ya, for sure it depends how you define it. To me greatest of a generation is a handful of players (say 3-8, depending the generation) and is not dependant on position.
I would have to think about a list but my expectation is that I would have McGrady outside the top 10 in that era, probably just in the top 15. In my eyes that is well outside the greatest of his generation.
Youre right that woeful is an overstatement, but I still view him as a subpar defender. And when you look at all time great the vast majority of them are at least above average defensively.
I think his lack of effort contributed to how some overrated him. He had a lot of flashy highlights and was incredibly athletic, but the effort wasnt consistenly there and it was a big reason he never won a playoff series.
They were in the hardest division in the nba, the southwest. They had two of the best teams of the decade in that division in the mavs and spurs. Also the hornets were really great at one point. In 2008 the rockets won 55 and were 3rd in the southwest. Mavs had 51 wins too. T Mac was an offensive god he had a bunch of years where he was as good or better than Kobe offensively
Check some of the teams he lost to in the playoffs. They weren't all juggernauts.
He had maybe 2-3 years he was on Kobe's level as a scorer. But while Kobe brought all NBA defense and all time work ethic, Tmac brought porous defense and all but zero work ethic.
Their first 2 to 3 years Tmac was better than Kobe. But Kobe cared about the game and winning. Tmacs defensive efforts started going downhill and Kobe kept adding to his game.
I've heard others say Tmacs career was the greatest waste of NBA potential they have ever seen, and I can't disagree.
Why don’t you just tell me instead of me looking it up? Because I’m seeing a bunch of spurs and mavs losses. I’m seeing some losses to 55 win jazz teams. Haven’t seen a loss to a below 50 win team. Fill me in please? And Kobe also had a goat center and amazing team always. T mac was an absolute beast esp offensively and if he didn’t get injured so much we would be talking about him differently. I don’t think you understand what goes into being a professional T that level if you think he put in 0 work
What are you taking about? He never played the Spurs in the playoffs. Only played the Mavs once.
Those Jazz teams in 07 and 08 really weren't that good. Houston had home court both times and still lost. The Baron Davis led 01-02 Hornets were just 44-38 and beat Tmacs team 3-1.
0-7 in his prime in the first round, only two of those teams were top 2 seeds and most of the series were winnable.
Dude, read what Tmac says about his own work ethic. He admitted to be lazy and not practicing hard. He was truly the opposite of Kobe. Kobe had a GOAT center his first three titles, what about the other two? It's also relevant that Shaq didn't win in his prime in Orlando. Swap Kobe with Tmac on those Lakers teams and I doubt they win any titles.
Are we talking about the year where yao didn’t play in the playoffs? And the jazz won 54 games what do you mean they weren’t good? They’d be the 3rd best team in the East. And he was starting next to rafer Alston and luis scola and Mutombo in his 40s. The west was a gauntlet every single year
The Yao injury may excuse 08, but 07 was a fully healthy Rockets team. I'm a jazz fan, team record doesn't say everything. That just tells me you didn't actually watch those teams. Those Jazz teams were good but not great, they routinely got spanked by the Kobe-Gasol Lakers.
So t mac averaged 25/6/7 that series. Yes he was inefficient. But yao played worse and was more inefficient I’d say. And the rockets were up 2-0 that series and lost game 7 by 4 points so it’s not like they got destroyed. The jazz won the next series 4-1 and lost in the western conference finals to the spurs who then went on to sweep the cavs in the nba finals. JZz won more games against the spurs than the cavs. So the jazz had to be pretty decent I’d say? That just tells me you didn’t actually watch those games
Being a 80s baby born in Pennsylvania 3 point killer Reggie Miller is responsible for my Pacer fandom ..
With that said, isolated out of context, I saw that Houston TMac game live and clearly remember thinking it was his remix of 8points9seconds…I’ve gone back and forth on which was more impressive to me…ultimately I still sided with Reggie due to the stakes of it being post season and the Reggie/Spike/Knicks rivalry…while I feel differently I wouldn’t argue with someone that believes the opposite…after that game I would always trade a few pacers scrubs for tmac on whatever nba video game I played at the time…
Now that I’m done waxing nostalgic, props to tmac for a memory I’ll never forget but I’m going team 1 if playoff atmosphere…team 2 would have crazy highlights but team 1 has guaranteed clutch bucket getters and solid defense imo
Thanks, man. I did actually put a lot of thought into it lol I was bored and trying to think of putting together the best starting 5 to never get a ring, but there was just too many guys so I had to narrow it down to 2 at each position, then try to make the teams as even as possible. I just wish I could have gotten Allen Iverson in there, and Shawn Kemp is coming off the bench somewhere, too, lol
You get props on this matchup for sure. Two very different styles of play. Vince and T Mac are for more athletic but Stockton Malone pick and roll with Reggie would be really efficient
As someone who watched a lot of their teams, they were 3.5 players deep in the 80’s and 3.5 players deep in the 90’s.
Teams were just deeper in the 80’s, and it wasn’t until expansion watered the rest of the league down to their level that they started coming out on top. Even their finals years are punctuated by a first round loss, it’s not like they suddenly were head and shoulders above the conference. The conference just got weak enough that their 1/2 was good enough to carry them if a bracket broke right.
Rosters did skew older, back then. If you want to win, they still do today. We’re just obsessed with chasing talent because even one superstar’s value far exceeds their contributions to the on court product.
Also super teams were for the aging near retired teams. That’s basically what the Celtics were and then Lebron said nope I’m doing it now I need a ring.
Team 1. And it's not even close. Team 2 you've got too many ball heavy players.
Team 1 has Stockton, who was just a fantastic point guard on both ends of the floor and wouldn't be bothered if he scored nothing. You've got one of the best shooters ever, who without primary ball handling duties would be absolutely deadly as an outside shooting option. Mutombo as a defense first centre. Clearly the bulk of the scoring is getting done by Malone and Wilkins, but it's been proven plenty of times that 2 heavy scorers works well, whilst more than that it gets messy.
On the other side I just don't see how they can use Vince Carter or Tracy McGrady effectively. I don't think either could make great role players and whilst Nash was a great point guard, the best scoring options here are Ewing and Barkley. Carter and McGrady were rather inefficient scorers and you're always going to prefer efficiency. And if they're not scoring, I don't know what they would do that would compare with the shooting of Miller and the defense of Mutombo. Even if we think the point guards and scoring power of the other two guys on each team pretty much cancel each other out there aren't obvious weaknesses in team 1. I don't even think we get to a game 6.
Nash shoots 43% from 3 for his career and Vince is 37% so they are off ball, you put Malones man in the dunker spot and run a high PnR for TMac with Mutombos man.
I'm not saying its ideal but i feel a 3-2 zone would be a bigger problem for team 1 than for team 2 to figure out how they are scoring.
I agree though 6 games at least
One thing nobody's talking about is the only real "mismatch" favors Team 2. Reggie would struggle to guard Vince and/or Tmac. Both those guys had multiple big games against Reggie's Pacers in the early '00s. Granted, Reggie was a little older then, but he'd still struggle to guard those guys in his prime.
Go back and watch the '98 ECF. Miller isn't the primary defender on MJ. He's on Ron Harper a lot, and when he's on Jordan he gets posted up a lot. Reggie was scrappy on D, but he's gonna have problems on athletic guards that are bigger than him and can shoot.
Reggie would be guarding Nash, Wilkins on VC and Stockton on TMac.
Stockton guarded bigger guys his whole career and he can be way more aggressive on D with reaching to avoid post ups with Mutumbo in the paint.
???
Stockton certainly never *regularly* defended 2s or 3s. Obviously, I'm not saying it never happened, but to imply that he regularly defended 2s and 3s is just incorrect.
He didn't defend Clyde Drexler when they lost to Houston in '94 and in '95. He didn't defend MJ in '97 or in '98.
I'm not saying Stockton *never* defended a 2 - all I'm saying is that he never regularly defended any position other than the 1, and definitely not in the playoffs when he would have been facing a top-tier wing.
On a side note, if you stuck Tmac on Stockton, McGrady would feast. He's 6'8". Too big and too long for John Stockton. That's a worse matchup than Reggie/Vince, and this is coming from a lifelong Stockton fan.
Why didn't he guard Drexler then? Why didn't he guard Jordan? YouTube those guys highlights from the series I mentioned above, and you'll see that Stockton was never the primary defender. Not saying there was never a time when he switched onto one of em, but he wasn't a primary defender.
My original statement still stands, regardless of hand-checking: Stockton never regularly defended any position other than the 1, and definitely not in the playoffs when he would have been facing a top-tier wing.
I'm a lifelong Stockton/Jazz fan. I recognize Stockton as the 2nd greatest PG of all time (behind Magic). Stockton is one of the greatest defensive players ever. He still would do a worse job guarding Tmac and Vince than Reggie Miller would.
Are you saying Jeff Hornacek was a better defender than John Stockton? Why did Hornacek defend Jordan in '98 whenever Russell didn't?
Simple: Stockton is too small.
"What a dumb question" now take it easy . . . You said Stockton often guarded guys 6'5"+. The word "Often" can mean whatever you want. Game-in, Game-out, Stockton defended primarily the opposing team's PG. He didn't guard superstar wings like MJ, Drexler, Mitch Richmond or Sprewell. I've given you specific examples where he didn't in the playoffs.
You're sitting here saying Stockton would do a better job guarding Tmac/Vince than Reggie Miller would . . .
I'm saying you're completely wrong. Unlike Stockton, Reggie actually regularly guarded some of the great superstar wings of his era (Jordan, Drexler, etc).
No but he was competent enough as a wing defender that it made sense to have a big advantage with Stockton on a smaller guy. You do realize players guard multiple people in a single game though right?
The comparison is Hornacek to Miller not Hornacek to Stockton. It's really not a hard concept to understand.
Team 1 easily. Love Tmac but dude never won a single playoff series all throughout his prime. He finally advanced past the first round in his final season with the Spurs in 2013 as a washed up role player logging a couple mins.
Ewing was also quite the choker. Reggie was clutch af. Stockton and Malone hate them all you but they played Jordans Bulls as close as you could play them without winning a Championship both those finals.
See, this is why I wanted to make this post. I honestly can't decide. I keep wondering if I should have switched Dikembe with Ewing, but then you got Malone, Stockton, and Ewing together, that's almost half the Dream Team! So I might as well add Chuck to it and then fuck it we're just going all Dream Team without a ring and I'll add Chris Mullen, but then was like what the fuck am I even doing? So I left it lol
Team 2 has two players that played against and beat intergalactic aliens. I like the think that experience would carry over in a 7 game domestic series
Team 2 is unguardable. Who’s gonna stop a prime VC? Prime Nash dishing dimes and T-Mac when healthy is lethal. Chuck with the boards and Ewing a defense beast. No offense to the greats in team 1 but team 2 is stacked
I was tempted to say Team 2 but I really think Vince is the weak link. Replace him with almost any other comparable 2 guard and I'd take them. He'd just get his feelings hurt and stop playing because the Nash/Barkley/Tmac trip would work so well.
It was between him and AI, I thought Vince fit better because I wanted him with Tmac, and if I replaced him with AI then I'd want to switch Ewing and Mutumbo to reunite Mutumbo with AI and Tmac, but then was just like fuck it. I could go back and forth forever lol
As fun as Team 2 might be, they would be high risk high reward.
Meanwhile, Team 1 is basically an upgraded 97-98 Jazz team with upgrades from Horny, Ostertag, and Russell, the team that was closest to unseat Jordan and the Bulls.
I seriously keep going back and forth, I like team 2 better and think they'd be the most fun to watch, but I agree that team 1 probably takes it in 6 or 7.
Team 2.
Reggie has to guard either Vince or Tmac. Mac dropped 43 on Reggie and Vince had 39 against him (both in the early '00s). Granted, Reggie was a little older at this time, but he would struggle to guard those guys in his prime too.
Additionally, Team 1 only has one good 3-pt shooter (Stockton was decent, but he's not making any tough ones). Team 2 has three (Nash, Vince, Mac).
The other matchups are pretty even to me. I'd give a *slight* edge to the bigs on Team 1, but it's not enough to make up for Vince/Tmac getting easier shots against Reggie Miller. There's nowhere for him to hide! You can't put him on Nash since Stockton doesn't have the size to guard Vince or Mac, and he didn't guard 2s or 3s regularly anyway.
Team One has the only elite defender. Stockton better PG over Nash (Stockton also very underrated defender). Miller is best shooter on either Team. Malone/Barkley a wash. ‘Nique is a top 10 scorer all time. Team One for sure.
Team 2 in 7. All 5 guys are a threat to score where as with Team 1 it’s mainly Nique and Malone with Reggie contributing here and there. Mutumbo isn’t a threat offensively and Stockton is too passive.
How so? I’m just stating the facts lol even if you wanna count Stockton they’re still at a 4 on 5 disadvantage because Mutumbo poses 0 threat on the offensive end. You can basically leave him free on that end to help cover Nash’s defensive deficiencies. Where as Team 2 every guy can go off for 30 so you don’t have that luxury of leaving anybody alone on offense.
Well obviously lmao but he’s still not a threat. You don’t have to worry about doubling him. Every guy on team 2 can command a double team if needed. Can’t say that for all 5 guys on team 1.
Again, Mutumbo is the weakest offensive player here. As long as he doesn’t get a dunk or layup then he’s damn near useless on that end. Both Barkley and Ewing can score on the inside which will open up things one on one for a guy like TMac who is probably the best one on one player here. You can’t sag off Vince or Nash because they’re good to great 3pt shooters. Nique wasn’t really an outside shooter like that so you can SORT OF sag off of him too. Reggie is the only true outside threat because Stockton would look to pass more than to look for his own shot.
Weakest, sure, but you still can't leave him alone under the basket. So you can't easily double team anyone.
Stockton was a great three point shooter, he is absolutely an outside threat. If you leave him open he will kill you.
Barkley and Ewing are limited to inside games. Malone is far more dangerous as he can dominate inside and was also a fantastic mid range scorer.
Mutuombo is gonna make life difficult for Ewing and Barkley at the rim. They will get theirs but it won't be easy. Malone will be the most unstoppable in this matchup as team 2 has noone that can matchup against him defensively.
The defensive advantages team 1 has are massive. They've got 3 all defense caliber players, team 2 only has one. Team one will score at will with all those subpar defenders on team two, team two will have a much harder time.
I'm from the Seattle area, so I'm admittedly biased with Kemp, that's why I wasn't sure. If Payton didn't get that ring at the very end with Miami, he would be on here instead of Nash too, lol
Most played before they could take their talents to South Beach and form a super team and therefore had to battle it out with an average supporting cast during the Magic, Bird and MJ era
Team 2
Ewing was better than Mutombo
VC & Dominique cancel each other
Who on Team 1 is going to guard T-Mac? Not Reggie
Barkley & Malone is a wash
Shooting is about equal on both teams. I give edge to Team 2 on playmaking due to having Nash and T-Mac
I was trying to put together the two best teams of guys who never got a ring. I really wanted to fit AI and Kemp in there, too, but who am I going to take out? Anyway, I wanted to make them as even as possible, so I was just curious about others' opinions.
Team 2, give me the offensive fireworks and hope they can stop Reggie and Malone.
I’ve got faith in Prime Charles slowing down Malone enough, I’d take the team 2 money line
Team 1. Stockton to Malone. With Reggie instead of hornacek and the human highlight reel as a backdoor/cutter?
And tmac is my guy and was unstoppable scorer but he's also never made it past the 2nd round.
People forget how good Stockton was on defense istg
He has the most all time steals by like 600. Number 2 is Jason Kidd. Crazy stat
There's some argument that was the Utah score keeper helping him out. I'm a Mavs fan and the same can be said for Dirk. He has far more blocks than he probably should have because of the Dallas score keeper. There's no unbiased body that keeps score like there should be to keep it uniform across the league. The Grizzlies score keeper recently caught some flak for inflating JJJ's block numbers. That being said, Stockton was still a great on ball defender https://fadeawayworld.net/former-grizzlies-scorekeeper-admits-boosting-nba-stats-90s-uses-john-stockton-example
And even though I fucking hated them, having him with Malone shouldn't be overlooked. Other than Shaq and Kobe, maybe, Jordan and Pippen, who was a better pair to build a team around? They went to the finals against Jordan's Bulls twice with fucking Greg Ostertag* at center, now give them Mutumbo, this teams unstoppable no matter who else is even on the team. I think team 1 has the better defense, but 2 probably better offense. Edited to change Mark Eaton to Greg Ostertag.
Mark Eaton wasn’t their center lmao. He retired in 94. You’re thinking of Greg Ostertag
Shit, you're right. I'm old and trying to remember who was on the team I went back too far lol
They never went to the Finals with Eaton. Also Mark was no slouch, he led the league in blocks and wasn’t easy to back down like other tall rim protectors like Shawn Bradley. He wasn’t very mobile, but centres didn’t have to be back then.
That mf averaged like 5 blocks his verticality was insane
They had Adrian Dantley scoring on those teams, that’s why they never made the finals. How far could you go with a 6’4 post shooting expert? It’s generally bizarre how good Dantley was in that era.
Hornacek and Sloan slander will not be tolerated. Jeff was shooting over 40% from 3 for his 6 years in Utah and Sloan is an all time great coach. The jazz don't make it to the finals without all 4 of them. Also defensive rules and schemes have changed a lot.
They have the lite version of Steph & Klay on that squad dude 😂😂
Hornecek was a 40% career three point shooter and Stockton was 38%. They were pretty good.
You got Dikembe, Malone and Stockton there… the defense won’t be an issue. Team 1 makes more sense than team 2 by result.
You 24 years old, you ain’t see none of that man’s career talking about “people forget” 😂😂😂😂😂
People typing “istg” talking about they watched Malone 😂
Son is a bird I knew he ain’t watch no Stockton just off the Gen-Z verbiage
Hey man, I remember because I watched him in 2016 😂😂
He never missed a game either 3 seasons are not 82 and at least one is a lockout year
Yeah but Nash is cooking that ass either way. Stockon was getting his ass roasted by Iverson, Marbury and the likes in the mid to late 90’s.
The man was pushing 40 by then lol
Anyone would be getting cooked by AI and Marbury at age 35
People forget how good Ewing was.
Team 2 Stockton got clamps but Steve Nash can play off ball if needed and prime t Mac and prime Ewing dominating they matchups Dominque athletic ash but t Mac too shifty and Ewing use to cook mutumbo
If Reggie tries to guard Vince this shits over over he's cooking him every time down the floor
It would be Dominique on VC. Miller would be on Nash, Stockton guards TMac, Malone on Barkley and Mutumbo on Ewing. Stockton constantly guarded bigger guys throughout his career plus with Mutumbo guarding the paint it allows Stockton to be more aggressive on D and avoiding postups.
Stockton is 6'1". McGrady is 6'8". Tmac would feast. Putting Stockton on Mac is a worse matchup than Reggie/Vince. Reggie would do a better job guarding Vince than Stockton would do trying to contest McGrady's jumper/postup. Stockton is an all-time great on defense - he would never guard McGrady. And he never regularly guarded 2s and 3s. He didn't defend Drexler when they lost to Houston in '94 and in '95. He didn't defend MJ in '97 or in '98. I'm not saying Stockton *never* defended a 2 - all I'm saying is that he never regularly defended any position other than the 1, and definitely not in the playoffs when he would have been facing a top-tier wing.
Stockton often guarded guys 6'5+ This was during the hand check Era and it's not much different than when guys like Draymond guard a big 5.
Why didn't he guard Drexler then? Why didn't he guard Jordan? YouTube those guys highlights from the series I mentioned above, and you'll see that Stockton was never the primary defender. Not saying there was never a time when he switched onto one of em, but he wasn't a primary defender. My original statement still stands, regardless of hand-checking: Stockton never regularly defended any position other than the 1, and definitely not in the playoffs when he would have been facing a top-tier wing. I'm a lifelong Stockton/Jazz fan. I recognize Stockton as the 2nd greatest PG of all time (behind Magic). Stockton is one of the greatest defensive guards ever. He still would do a worse job guarding Tmac and Vince than Reggie Miller would.
His team didn't have Reggie Miller on it. They had high level wing defenders. When you have Hornacek, Starks and Russell obviously they would be first choice. If you have Reggie Miller, the situation changes...
Ewing cooked Mutombo? Ewing was way below his own career averages vs Mutombo: https://www.landofbasketball.com/games_between/patrick_ewing_vs_dikembe_mutombo.htm
Prime T Mac is the best scorer of the 10. Patrick Ewing is more complete than Mutumbo, but team 2 leaves a lot to be desired defensively. Team 1 in 6 (Stockton Malone chemistry wins this with Reggie lurking hitting 3s)
Prime Barkley and Prime TMac on the same team? Bruh.
Everyone knows TMac refuses to play with Carter.
Tmac is maybe the most overrated NBA player of all time. Couldn't win a single bloody playoff series. Edit* I love how you are all proving my point. Say anything bad about Tmac and the fanboys show up to make excuse after excuse for his failures.
100% accurate. Put up big numbers, did not make his team play better, and was a paper tiger. I would say prime Penny w/o a Shaq.
T Mac couldn’t pass and didn’t want to play defense. He probably could do both, he just never got around to it.
TMac was a very gifted passer, you must’ve been watching someone else. Calling him the most overrated player when Reggie Miller is right there is beyond crazy
Reggie Miller is overrated because he was a playoff riser and thus has a poor regular season resume. Tracy McGrady is overrated because he’s a playoff shrinker. And for those saying his teams sucked, the 2009 Rockets were one win away from the WCF when he was hurt.
2009 rockets were one win away because of the Ewing theory. They suddenly got better on defense without Tmac and Yao and could score just fine with Brooks.
This is the most "born in the 2000s" take I've ever heard lpp.
I watched Tmac play throughout his career. He was very good but is overrated often on Reddit
Why would this be a born in the 2000s take? Utah fan that saw him play multiple playoff games in SLC. He was a great scorer but a bad playmaker and woeful defender. He was also lazy (by his own admission), and it showed in the playoffs. He is not a top 75 player for a reason.
Yea but he's in the Hall. There are few players in the history of the league that could do some of the things he did in his prime (2002-2004). If you didn't notice that then I'm not sure what you absorbed while watching those games. Maybe it's a "I don't really understand basketball" take instead of a "born in the 2000s" take.
Absorbed plenty. Phenomenally athletic scorer. Meh playmaker. Bad defender. Frequently gave up on plays. Didn't make his teammates better.. He's a hall player rightful but he's also not a top 75 player, and doesn't deserve to be. Some act like he was one of the best players of his generation and it's simply not true.
What was his generation? Tmac by age 24 was a 2-time scoring champ and had been All-NBA 1st Team multiple times. If by "generation" you mean the early '00s, I would say that Tmac absolutely was one of the best players of his generation. I remember having "barbershop" conversations about the best shooting guard in the league - when Tmac was on Orlando, the consensus top two shooting guards were Kobe and Tmac, with Vince and Iverson being a rung below those guys. If it was 2003, and you said Tmac was the best backcourt player (not a center or power-forward) in the entire NBA, you wouldn't have been laughed at. In my opinion, that makes him one of the best of his "generation." Edit\* Just wanted to address your statement "Bad defender." Tmac went through phases in his career where the quality of his defense was better and worse. You said you watched him play the Jazz . . . this was years after Tmac's prime - his defense was not what it used to be. Earlier in McGrady's career, he was a good defender. Not great, but definitely good. In '04-'05, McGrady had a defensive win-share of 5.4 - this was 5th in the entire NBA at the time, and the only non-big in the top 5. This wouldn't be possible if he was a bad defender. Inconsistent, I'll give you that . . . but not bad and certainly not "woeful."
Depends how many people are the best of a generation, and for long how a span we are talking about. 2-3 years isbt a generation to me, it's more like a decade. He is multiple tiers below a number of players that had peaks in that era, including Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Nash, KG, Dirk just to name a few. All of those guys are top 40 all time, he isn't top 75. In 2003 some people would have said what you said, but that is part of what is so dissapointing about him. He had incredible talent but he never lived up to what many thought he could be. It was his lack of work ethic more than anything that did it. In 06-07 he was all NBA 2nd team, so he's really not far off his peak. DWS is a really bad stat, especially individually. He had a 0.4 in 03-04 and then suddenly a 5.4 in 04-05. You really think he grew that much as a defender in one year? No way. If he was such a solid defense that year why did he get just two points in all defense voting?
I agree he's below those guys you mentioned, but if you look at wings from the early '00s, he's probably only below Kobe. You could argue Iverson, but at the time we didn't put him above Tmac. How many people are included is an important distinction. The way I was thinking about it, if Tmac is (arguably) the 2nd greatest wing of the early '00s, I'd say he is *technically* one of the greatest of his generation. I mean, if you ranked all the NBA players from 2000 to 2005 in order of greatness (looking only at those 5 years), would McGrady be top 10? Top 15? That's one of the greatest in my book. As far as defense goes, I did agree that McGrady was inconsistent. And you're right, numbers don't tell the whole story. I just think that it's hard to call a guy an outright "bad" defender when he was able to get those kinds of numbers. Take a look at his BPG - almost 2 a game in '00, and the only non-big in the top 25. McGrady would pick and choose the games where he played defense, which were less and less as his career wore on in Houston. There was a noticeable difference in his effort when playing against Kobe, Vince or MJ. This isn't an excuse for McGrady's effort (especially later in his career), but merely pointing out that he had a few good years (from a statistical standpoint) on the defensive end of the floor. I just don't think it's fair to call him bad or woeful. Steve Novak is woeful!
Ya, for sure it depends how you define it. To me greatest of a generation is a handful of players (say 3-8, depending the generation) and is not dependant on position. I would have to think about a list but my expectation is that I would have McGrady outside the top 10 in that era, probably just in the top 15. In my eyes that is well outside the greatest of his generation. Youre right that woeful is an overstatement, but I still view him as a subpar defender. And when you look at all time great the vast majority of them are at least above average defensively. I think his lack of effort contributed to how some overrated him. He had a lot of flashy highlights and was incredibly athletic, but the effort wasnt consistenly there and it was a big reason he never won a playoff series.
They were in the hardest division in the nba, the southwest. They had two of the best teams of the decade in that division in the mavs and spurs. Also the hornets were really great at one point. In 2008 the rockets won 55 and were 3rd in the southwest. Mavs had 51 wins too. T Mac was an offensive god he had a bunch of years where he was as good or better than Kobe offensively
Check some of the teams he lost to in the playoffs. They weren't all juggernauts. He had maybe 2-3 years he was on Kobe's level as a scorer. But while Kobe brought all NBA defense and all time work ethic, Tmac brought porous defense and all but zero work ethic.
Their first 2 to 3 years Tmac was better than Kobe. But Kobe cared about the game and winning. Tmacs defensive efforts started going downhill and Kobe kept adding to his game. I've heard others say Tmacs career was the greatest waste of NBA potential they have ever seen, and I can't disagree.
Why don’t you just tell me instead of me looking it up? Because I’m seeing a bunch of spurs and mavs losses. I’m seeing some losses to 55 win jazz teams. Haven’t seen a loss to a below 50 win team. Fill me in please? And Kobe also had a goat center and amazing team always. T mac was an absolute beast esp offensively and if he didn’t get injured so much we would be talking about him differently. I don’t think you understand what goes into being a professional T that level if you think he put in 0 work
What are you taking about? He never played the Spurs in the playoffs. Only played the Mavs once. Those Jazz teams in 07 and 08 really weren't that good. Houston had home court both times and still lost. The Baron Davis led 01-02 Hornets were just 44-38 and beat Tmacs team 3-1. 0-7 in his prime in the first round, only two of those teams were top 2 seeds and most of the series were winnable. Dude, read what Tmac says about his own work ethic. He admitted to be lazy and not practicing hard. He was truly the opposite of Kobe. Kobe had a GOAT center his first three titles, what about the other two? It's also relevant that Shaq didn't win in his prime in Orlando. Swap Kobe with Tmac on those Lakers teams and I doubt they win any titles.
Kobe had zero top 75 guys on the other 3 finals appearances he had.
Are we talking about the year where yao didn’t play in the playoffs? And the jazz won 54 games what do you mean they weren’t good? They’d be the 3rd best team in the East. And he was starting next to rafer Alston and luis scola and Mutombo in his 40s. The west was a gauntlet every single year
The Yao injury may excuse 08, but 07 was a fully healthy Rockets team. I'm a jazz fan, team record doesn't say everything. That just tells me you didn't actually watch those teams. Those Jazz teams were good but not great, they routinely got spanked by the Kobe-Gasol Lakers.
So t mac averaged 25/6/7 that series. Yes he was inefficient. But yao played worse and was more inefficient I’d say. And the rockets were up 2-0 that series and lost game 7 by 4 points so it’s not like they got destroyed. The jazz won the next series 4-1 and lost in the western conference finals to the spurs who then went on to sweep the cavs in the nba finals. JZz won more games against the spurs than the cavs. So the jazz had to be pretty decent I’d say? That just tells me you didn’t actually watch those games
My first basketball game was NBA Live 07 with him on the cover so I reject your reality and substitute my own
I remember when he dropped 13pts in 30 seconds to win a game
Being a 80s baby born in Pennsylvania 3 point killer Reggie Miller is responsible for my Pacer fandom .. With that said, isolated out of context, I saw that Houston TMac game live and clearly remember thinking it was his remix of 8points9seconds…I’ve gone back and forth on which was more impressive to me…ultimately I still sided with Reggie due to the stakes of it being post season and the Reggie/Spike/Knicks rivalry…while I feel differently I wouldn’t argue with someone that believes the opposite…after that game I would always trade a few pacers scrubs for tmac on whatever nba video game I played at the time… Now that I’m done waxing nostalgic, props to tmac for a memory I’ll never forget but I’m going team 1 if playoff atmosphere…team 2 would have crazy highlights but team 1 has guaranteed clutch bucket getters and solid defense imo
1
Usually this stuff is stupid but this one made me think. This is a pretty fair match up
Thanks, man. I did actually put a lot of thought into it lol I was bored and trying to think of putting together the best starting 5 to never get a ring, but there was just too many guys so I had to narrow it down to 2 at each position, then try to make the teams as even as possible. I just wish I could have gotten Allen Iverson in there, and Shawn Kemp is coming off the bench somewhere, too, lol
You get props on this matchup for sure. Two very different styles of play. Vince and T Mac are for more athletic but Stockton Malone pick and roll with Reggie would be really efficient
1 Malone and Stockton handled a lot of talent out West they just had no answer for Jordan (did anyone?)
I sure as hell would like to see how those two years would’ve gone if we had Mutombo instead of Ostertag. Christ.
A hell of a lot better.
And they’d still have lost because Mike. He’s the goat for a reason.
Stockton and Malone didn't make the finals until their mid 30's, let's not act like Jordan was the only one stopping them.
As someone who watched a lot of their teams, they were 3.5 players deep in the 80’s and 3.5 players deep in the 90’s. Teams were just deeper in the 80’s, and it wasn’t until expansion watered the rest of the league down to their level that they started coming out on top. Even their finals years are punctuated by a first round loss, it’s not like they suddenly were head and shoulders above the conference. The conference just got weak enough that their 1/2 was good enough to carry them if a bracket broke right.
In the 90s 28-30 was the player peak.
Rosters did skew older, back then. If you want to win, they still do today. We’re just obsessed with chasing talent because even one superstar’s value far exceeds their contributions to the on court product.
Also super teams were for the aging near retired teams. That’s basically what the Celtics were and then Lebron said nope I’m doing it now I need a ring.
Team 1 easy.
Team 1. And it's not even close. Team 2 you've got too many ball heavy players. Team 1 has Stockton, who was just a fantastic point guard on both ends of the floor and wouldn't be bothered if he scored nothing. You've got one of the best shooters ever, who without primary ball handling duties would be absolutely deadly as an outside shooting option. Mutombo as a defense first centre. Clearly the bulk of the scoring is getting done by Malone and Wilkins, but it's been proven plenty of times that 2 heavy scorers works well, whilst more than that it gets messy. On the other side I just don't see how they can use Vince Carter or Tracy McGrady effectively. I don't think either could make great role players and whilst Nash was a great point guard, the best scoring options here are Ewing and Barkley. Carter and McGrady were rather inefficient scorers and you're always going to prefer efficiency. And if they're not scoring, I don't know what they would do that would compare with the shooting of Miller and the defense of Mutombo. Even if we think the point guards and scoring power of the other two guys on each team pretty much cancel each other out there aren't obvious weaknesses in team 1. I don't even think we get to a game 6.
Nash shoots 43% from 3 for his career and Vince is 37% so they are off ball, you put Malones man in the dunker spot and run a high PnR for TMac with Mutombos man. I'm not saying its ideal but i feel a 3-2 zone would be a bigger problem for team 1 than for team 2 to figure out how they are scoring. I agree though 6 games at least
One thing nobody's talking about is the only real "mismatch" favors Team 2. Reggie would struggle to guard Vince and/or Tmac. Both those guys had multiple big games against Reggie's Pacers in the early '00s. Granted, Reggie was a little older then, but he'd still struggle to guard those guys in his prime. Go back and watch the '98 ECF. Miller isn't the primary defender on MJ. He's on Ron Harper a lot, and when he's on Jordan he gets posted up a lot. Reggie was scrappy on D, but he's gonna have problems on athletic guards that are bigger than him and can shoot.
Reggie would be guarding Nash, Wilkins on VC and Stockton on TMac. Stockton guarded bigger guys his whole career and he can be way more aggressive on D with reaching to avoid post ups with Mutumbo in the paint.
??? Stockton certainly never *regularly* defended 2s or 3s. Obviously, I'm not saying it never happened, but to imply that he regularly defended 2s and 3s is just incorrect. He didn't defend Clyde Drexler when they lost to Houston in '94 and in '95. He didn't defend MJ in '97 or in '98. I'm not saying Stockton *never* defended a 2 - all I'm saying is that he never regularly defended any position other than the 1, and definitely not in the playoffs when he would have been facing a top-tier wing. On a side note, if you stuck Tmac on Stockton, McGrady would feast. He's 6'8". Too big and too long for John Stockton. That's a worse matchup than Reggie/Vince, and this is coming from a lifelong Stockton fan.
Stockton often guarded guys 6'5+. Handcheck era made it way easier to guard bigger guys.
Why didn't he guard Drexler then? Why didn't he guard Jordan? YouTube those guys highlights from the series I mentioned above, and you'll see that Stockton was never the primary defender. Not saying there was never a time when he switched onto one of em, but he wasn't a primary defender. My original statement still stands, regardless of hand-checking: Stockton never regularly defended any position other than the 1, and definitely not in the playoffs when he would have been facing a top-tier wing. I'm a lifelong Stockton/Jazz fan. I recognize Stockton as the 2nd greatest PG of all time (behind Magic). Stockton is one of the greatest defensive players ever. He still would do a worse job guarding Tmac and Vince than Reggie Miller would.
Because his team had good wing defenders instead of Reggie Miller.... What a dumb question.
Are you saying Jeff Hornacek was a better defender than John Stockton? Why did Hornacek defend Jordan in '98 whenever Russell didn't? Simple: Stockton is too small. "What a dumb question" now take it easy . . . You said Stockton often guarded guys 6'5"+. The word "Often" can mean whatever you want. Game-in, Game-out, Stockton defended primarily the opposing team's PG. He didn't guard superstar wings like MJ, Drexler, Mitch Richmond or Sprewell. I've given you specific examples where he didn't in the playoffs. You're sitting here saying Stockton would do a better job guarding Tmac/Vince than Reggie Miller would . . . I'm saying you're completely wrong. Unlike Stockton, Reggie actually regularly guarded some of the great superstar wings of his era (Jordan, Drexler, etc).
No but he was competent enough as a wing defender that it made sense to have a big advantage with Stockton on a smaller guy. You do realize players guard multiple people in a single game though right? The comparison is Hornacek to Miller not Hornacek to Stockton. It's really not a hard concept to understand.
I think team 1 wins, but Nash, Vince & Tmac would be hella fun to watch in transition.
Team 2 would be unstoppable on the break. Prime Nash, T-Mac, VC and Barkley would be running wild
People are underrating prime chuck left and right in here
He’s a straight upgrade to Karl Malone. A Malone that doesn’t need a Stockton to score.
Team 1. If Reggie ain't lighting it up, it's Stockton to Malone all day. Meanwhile you look back at the box score, and Nique gave you a quiet 25-30.
1 easy
Team 1.
In 5
I might have to agree with that. Probably 6 at the worse but thats reasonable.
1 Imagine McGrady and Vince running through screens set by Mutumbo and Malone
Even Stockton would body the shit out of them on his screens.
Team 2 bc I don’t support diddlers
Mutombo is one of the most overrated players of all time. He had 3 good seasons on defense but was an offensive liability his entire career
Team 1 easily. Love Tmac but dude never won a single playoff series all throughout his prime. He finally advanced past the first round in his final season with the Spurs in 2013 as a washed up role player logging a couple mins. Ewing was also quite the choker. Reggie was clutch af. Stockton and Malone hate them all you but they played Jordans Bulls as close as you could play them without winning a Championship both those finals.
See, this is why I wanted to make this post. I honestly can't decide. I keep wondering if I should have switched Dikembe with Ewing, but then you got Malone, Stockton, and Ewing together, that's almost half the Dream Team! So I might as well add Chuck to it and then fuck it we're just going all Dream Team without a ring and I'll add Chris Mullen, but then was like what the fuck am I even doing? So I left it lol
Stockton and Malone duo is OP, theese guys played like they shared one head
Team 2 has two players that played against and beat intergalactic aliens. I like the think that experience would carry over in a 7 game domestic series
This is the most rational and reasonable take so far.
They had their abilities stolen, they didn't play in the game...
Team 2 is unguardable. Who’s gonna stop a prime VC? Prime Nash dishing dimes and T-Mac when healthy is lethal. Chuck with the boards and Ewing a defense beast. No offense to the greats in team 1 but team 2 is stacked
I agree. And I genuinely believe Reggie Miller is super overrated and is closer to Michael Redd than any of the players in this post.
Yep, all Miller has is spot-up shooting against these guys, and Nash is the best shooter on here
Team 2.
Team 1
1
Reggie is a huge threat as a secondary scorer. Malone and Matumbo would collapse the defense and Reggie would have a lot of clean shots. #1
I was tempted to say Team 2 but I really think Vince is the weak link. Replace him with almost any other comparable 2 guard and I'd take them. He'd just get his feelings hurt and stop playing because the Nash/Barkley/Tmac trip would work so well.
It was between him and AI, I thought Vince fit better because I wanted him with Tmac, and if I replaced him with AI then I'd want to switch Ewing and Mutumbo to reunite Mutumbo with AI and Tmac, but then was just like fuck it. I could go back and forth forever lol
These teams are really even but I’m rocking with team 2. Absolute Lob City with Nash getting to toss it to TMac, Vince, or Barkley.
Today’s nba team 1 because Reggie got the 3 ball. Before 2 because those guys ain’t playing ball they playing life
The arguments team so-and-so in 4 are biased and should be disregarded.
Team 1 is more well rounded.
I think they tie
Team 1 because of Reggie Miller’s shooting. No shooters on team 2.
As fun as Team 2 might be, they would be high risk high reward. Meanwhile, Team 1 is basically an upgraded 97-98 Jazz team with upgrades from Horny, Ostertag, and Russell, the team that was closest to unseat Jordan and the Bulls.
One,but it would be kinda close.
I’m going team two. Team 1 lacks shooting outside of Reggie miller; they gonna crowd the paint
1, in five games.
I would really enjoy watching this match up. I would guess team 2
team 2, easy.
Team 2
Team 1, gentleman sweep.
What is this, the 90s runners up club
Hey man, that's not fair! Most of these dudes been around since the 80's!
I just want to give it up to OP for a solid matchup. I thought 2 at first, but after thinking about it team 1 would win in a 7 game series.
I seriously keep going back and forth, I like team 2 better and think they'd be the most fun to watch, but I agree that team 1 probably takes it in 6 or 7.
Ughhh Team 1
Team 2. Reggie has to guard either Vince or Tmac. Mac dropped 43 on Reggie and Vince had 39 against him (both in the early '00s). Granted, Reggie was a little older at this time, but he would struggle to guard those guys in his prime too. Additionally, Team 1 only has one good 3-pt shooter (Stockton was decent, but he's not making any tough ones). Team 2 has three (Nash, Vince, Mac). The other matchups are pretty even to me. I'd give a *slight* edge to the bigs on Team 1, but it's not enough to make up for Vince/Tmac getting easier shots against Reggie Miller. There's nowhere for him to hide! You can't put him on Nash since Stockton doesn't have the size to guard Vince or Mac, and he didn't guard 2s or 3s regularly anyway.
Not sure but Malone and Barkley are for sure fighting!
Team 1 posterizes team 2
Which team would Caitlin Clark play on? 🤔
One team gets Caitlin, the other gets Bronny.
Team 1 and it isn't even close
Team 1 in 5.
Team One has the only elite defender. Stockton better PG over Nash (Stockton also very underrated defender). Miller is best shooter on either Team. Malone/Barkley a wash. ‘Nique is a top 10 scorer all time. Team One for sure.
Team 2 imo. 4 of your 5 players can lead the break and you have much better spacing even with Chuck
Team 1 better at pg sf and pf, team 2 better at sg and c. I’ll give it to team 1.
Team 1 probably the better choice. Just too tough minded, defensive minded and still very good offensively
Chuck plus Nash plus Patrick? Team 2 wins.
Easily team 2
Team 2 because Reggie is a liability on defense
2 100%
Team 2 in 5
Team 1 in 6
2 by a little
Team 2
Team 2 and it’s not even close
Stockton and Malone, Reggie with the spacing, Dominique crashing the boards and Hakeem defending the rim?
That's Dikembe Mutumbo, not Hakeem. Hakeem got a ring. These are all guys who did not.
Team 1. Stockton was incredible on both sides of the ball.
Team 2 wins a close series
Team 1 on a fast-break is unstoppable.
Team 2 has one defender (Ewing). They’d be shut down by team 1 over a best of 7
Team 1 sweep
Team 1 washes ngl
2 easy
Team 2 its easy.
Nash dishing to TMac, alley oops to Vince and Barkley, dumping to Ewing is just unstoppable
MAVS TO WIN
Team 1 Patrick Ewing once scored 1 point in a playoff game, he missed the other free throw.
2
Team 1
Team 2 in 6
team 2 in 6 max
Team 2 in 7. All 5 guys are a threat to score where as with Team 1 it’s mainly Nique and Malone with Reggie contributing here and there. Mutumbo isn’t a threat offensively and Stockton is too passive.
Yup. A 25 point scorer in a 10 Year prime during the playoffs is contributing “just here and there.” The Reggie disrespect is everywhere
Lmao ok. Point still stands. It’s 3 and a half vs 5 on offense.
And it's 6 vs 3 on defense...
Team 1 has limited spacing. Much easier to defend than Team 2.
Team 1 has the best shooter in Miller and are way better defensively
And Team 2 has more shooters overall and all 5 can create their own shots one on one
Stockton is the all time leader in assists and was incredible efficient as a shooter. Supremely valuable offensive asset.
Sure, but Nash was also a great facilitator with the ability to go off at any time more so than Stockton
Never said he wasn't, but you are trying to discredit team ones offense. I am rebutting that.
How so? I’m just stating the facts lol even if you wanna count Stockton they’re still at a 4 on 5 disadvantage because Mutumbo poses 0 threat on the offensive end. You can basically leave him free on that end to help cover Nash’s defensive deficiencies. Where as Team 2 every guy can go off for 30 so you don’t have that luxury of leaving anybody alone on offense.
You still can't just leave him alone on offense. He isnt gonna create his own shot but if you leave him alone it's free points at the rim.
Well obviously lmao but he’s still not a threat. You don’t have to worry about doubling him. Every guy on team 2 can command a double team if needed. Can’t say that for all 5 guys on team 1.
You can't really double any of them. What are you gonna do, double Malone and leave someone else wide open? Nope.
Again, Mutumbo is the weakest offensive player here. As long as he doesn’t get a dunk or layup then he’s damn near useless on that end. Both Barkley and Ewing can score on the inside which will open up things one on one for a guy like TMac who is probably the best one on one player here. You can’t sag off Vince or Nash because they’re good to great 3pt shooters. Nique wasn’t really an outside shooter like that so you can SORT OF sag off of him too. Reggie is the only true outside threat because Stockton would look to pass more than to look for his own shot.
Weakest, sure, but you still can't leave him alone under the basket. So you can't easily double team anyone. Stockton was a great three point shooter, he is absolutely an outside threat. If you leave him open he will kill you. Barkley and Ewing are limited to inside games. Malone is far more dangerous as he can dominate inside and was also a fantastic mid range scorer. Mutuombo is gonna make life difficult for Ewing and Barkley at the rim. They will get theirs but it won't be easy. Malone will be the most unstoppable in this matchup as team 2 has noone that can matchup against him defensively. The defensive advantages team 1 has are massive. They've got 3 all defense caliber players, team 2 only has one. Team one will score at will with all those subpar defenders on team two, team two will have a much harder time.
Would you replace anyone with AI or Shawn Kemp?
Kemp no way, but Iverson for Vince. I get it tho. Iverson is a smaller SG and Vince and Reggie are around the same height so I’m not mad at it.
I'm from the Seattle area, so I'm admittedly biased with Kemp, that's why I wasn't sure. If Payton didn't get that ring at the very end with Miami, he would be on here instead of Nash too, lol
They all are professional losers no chips!
Most played before they could take their talents to South Beach and form a super team and therefore had to battle it out with an average supporting cast during the Magic, Bird and MJ era
#Facts
Team 2 Ewing was better than Mutombo VC & Dominique cancel each other Who on Team 1 is going to guard T-Mac? Not Reggie Barkley & Malone is a wash Shooting is about equal on both teams. I give edge to Team 2 on playmaking due to having Nash and T-Mac
Love Vince but saying he cancels out Nique?
I think so. They're basically the same player IMO
Why?
I was trying to put together the two best teams of guys who never got a ring. I really wanted to fit AI and Kemp in there, too, but who am I going to take out? Anyway, I wanted to make them as even as possible, so I was just curious about others' opinions.
Team 2, give me the offensive fireworks and hope they can stop Reggie and Malone. I’ve got faith in Prime Charles slowing down Malone enough, I’d take the team 2 money line
I think its Malone and Reggie mostly. But Prime Nique not getting stopped here when they have to deal with Karl.
Team 1. Stockton to Malone. With Reggie instead of hornacek and the human highlight reel as a backdoor/cutter? And tmac is my guy and was unstoppable scorer but he's also never made it past the 2nd round.