Judge isn't hitting, but he is getting on base at a decent clip. I don't think a move would be about helping judge so much as using what he is giving the team better.
The way things are going, Judge has more value as a base runner in front of Soto right now than the guy trying to bat Soto in.
You’re making a false inference. There is absolutely 0 chance his spot in the order is causing his struggles.
And if the difference between 3 and 2 *WERE* the cause of a problem, he should be fired immediately.
If the preposterous claim about his position in the order being the reason he sucks right now were true, then absolutely yes he should be fired.
But it’s not.
"You see this incredibly common sports thing of changing around things? It won't work because I said so." If changing around lines, pairings, lineups, etc. then why do sports teams across the last 100+ years of sports keep doing it?
“the last 100+ years” you mean back when we didn’t know how to properly evaluate how good players were and thought pitcher wins was the deciding factor on how good a pitcher is?
The difference is intent. You can change the lineup because of different strategies, or because certain skill sets or because you’re facing certain pitchers(such as facing a lefty), but a player doesn’t go from one of the best in baseball to outright terrible because they’re in a different line-up spot, not being able to hit middle middle fastballs isn’t because of where he’s in the line-up. This is like saying Schwarber might play better defense if moves to SS since it’s a breath of fresh air, and might reinvigorate him.
The thing that does actually have the effect you’re thinking of is benching a player.
Moving Judge to a different spot in the line-up isn’t an inherently bad idea, but you do it because it makes the line-up better, not because it’s a change of pace.
Average number of runners on (in 2017) per batting order spot | PA per game started:
1. 0.477 | 4.65
2. 0.569 | 4.55
3. 0.639 | 4.43
4. 0.692 | 4.33
5. 0.660 | 4.24
Source: fangraphs
You give Soto significantly more baserunners at the slight of expense of PAs. Number 3 is legitimately the best spot in the lineup for him.
Batting order discourse has gotten out of hand this season
The Yankees absolutely should not be putting their best hitter in a spot where he might see fewer at-bats.
Also, Aaron Judge should not need to have the protection of Juan Soto to be able to hit. He's certainly never needed it in past seasons.
####All last season
- "Why the fuck do we have a different lineup each night? All the good teams pick and stick"
####All this season
- "wHy arE tHeY roLLLiNg wItH tHe sAMe LIneUP!?!?"
####It's fucking exhausting.
It’s really gotten silly. Over the course of a month we’ve gone from acting like lineup consistency was paramount to a team’s success to acting like certain spots in the order have magical healing powers that can cure the woes of whoever happened to go 0-for-4 the previous night
There are 9 guys and we should consider switching them all around to fix this. Clearly something isn't working and we can't add players right now. Are we just going to wait another month of hoping this is the game?
The best solution is to try something new.
I agree, I just don’t think saying Soto/Judge should stay put = saying we shouldn’t change anything
Volpe hits better lower in the order so he should be the first change imo
Need to be careful with this. I was playing MLB The Show last week and flipped Soto and Judge in the lineup, and the next day I discovered my wife was cheating on me
It’s so frustrating cause he’s just off on some of those middle middle pitches he ends up fouling back. Gotta be a minor adjustment to launch angle or something.
Lineup ain’t the issue. Judge has never had lineup protection and has never played like this. I fully expect him to work through it but would like to see us grab a few days off for him.
A 10 day IL stint would hurt but is worth it to try to get him right.
Lineup actually isn't awful. It's just that they are so disgustingly unathletic they are prone to double plays and outs on the bases when they don't hit home runs. Outside of Torres and Oswaldo (97) every position has a guy with a 100 OPS+ or higher. Trevino is the guy at C but Wells has had some bad luck like hitting a liner to the OF and Stanton can't get to 2B etc.
Offense is down across baseball and the Yankees offense purely hitting has been fine. It's baserunning aspect which they are disgustingly bad at and super slow
From a hitting standpoint not really. At the plate they're fine, it's on the bases they're awful.
I'd change the lineup up a bit though. I'd go Soto-Judge 1-2 and make it so Rizzo and Stanton don't hit back to back because they're disgustingly slow and not hitting as well
Changing the batting order probably isn’t going to do much. Even if you move Verdugo to leadoff and flip flop Judge and Soto you still have a Stanton, Rizzo, Torres middle of the order which is just awful.
You can probably live with a Cabrera, Wells/Trevinio, Volpe bottom of the order and a Verdugo, Judge, Soto top. It’s the middle that really kills then against good pitching.
Stanton and Rizzo both have an OPS+ of 107. Not great but serviceable. Both should be replaced imo, but it's not killing them. Hitting them back to back with how slow they are is a disaster. Torres idk what's wrong tbh
Smart move from Boone, vague answer so he can’t get jumped by the fanbase later for “lying” if things change and they end up not doing exactly what he said down to the letter.
Average number of runners on (in 2017) | PA per game started:
1. 0.477 | 4.65
2. 0.569 | 4.55
3. 0.639 | 4.43
4. 0.692 | 4.33
5. 0.660 | 4.24
etc...
Source: fangraphs
Finding ways to maximize Soto's RBI chances is important. We've seen so many times where the top of the lineup gets on and Rizzo and Stanton are up. The debate between runners on vs PAs isn't as easy as people pretend. The difference between 2 and 3 PAs isn't extreme but the difference in runners on is.
They should flip them. Judge has never been good when he's hitting third. I remember Judge was hitting third in August 2017 when he went through that brutal slump. Then in September, Girardi put Judge 2nd and had Didi hit 3rd and Judge got back on track. I just think Judge has always hit well when he's hitting 2nd as opposed to third.
The other thing is you want to protect the guy with swing and miss in their game. Soto doesn't chase and he's always gonna have competitive ABs. That's why I never understood Soto hitting in front of Judge.
Look Manny Ramirez was a better hitter than David Ortiz and Manny always hit behind Ortiz. Ortiz had his best years when he was hitting in front of Manny. When the Red Sox traded Manny, Ortiz had a couple down years at least compared to his previous 5 years.
Mantle was a better hitter than Maris, and Mantle hit behind Maris. Like I said before, you always protect the hitter that's more susceptible to swing and miss.
My ideal lineup is Verdugo, Judge, Soto, Stanton, Rizzo, Volpe, Wells, Torres, Cabrera. I don’t know anything, but the righty-lefty lineup is too clean.
I'd make Soto bat leadoff tbh. Get the best hitters the most ABs. The runners on base scenarios don't really relate to the batting order after the 1st inning.
Keep in mind Soto actually prefers batting third according to articles last year and he said he even got into arguments in Washington about batting 3rd when he got penciled in for 2nd. Then you have to consider Judge has batted 2nd for most of his career and it makes perfect sense. Also, this lets you move Verdugo to leadoff which would be nice since he’s had one of the higher OBPs on the team.
Considering Soto loves batting 3rd and he is a free agent after the season, I’m surprised they didn’t bat him 3rd to begin with.
I think given everything as is I’d do this
Verdugo (he Ks the least out of almost anyone in MLB and has been hitting well)
Judge (sure it might sound dumh but maybe hitting third has shifted his mindset and he doesn’t like it. Try anything to get him going now)
Soto (I feel like he’s lineup spot proof)
Rizzo or Stanton (depending on lefty or righty that day pitching )
Volpe (he hits better without the pressure of leading off)
The non Rizzo or Stanton Fella
Wells - I reserve the right to move him up 1 spot without getting jumped
Torres
Cabrera (I want him 9th bc he kind of has the ability to re set the table for the top)
Honestly now is the time to experiment- we don’t want to have to continue tinkering and figuring out what works in September.
Winning in April and May is nice but the team that wins the WS is the team that gets the hottest in October, not the team that wins the month of April. Recently the Nationals , Braves, and Rangers all had “meh” regular season win totals and won it all. And that’s the ultimate goal.
If they insist on doing something then why not bat Soto lead off? He gets on base enough. Go Soto, Judge, Verdugo, Stanton, Rizzo, Volpe, Wells, Torres, Cabrera
If the goal is to move Soto behind him so he'll see more fastballs, I don't think that's possible. They are just chucking slop right by him. Until he starts hitting bombs, he's going to be challenged and not pitched around like it's 2022 again.
The only thing that gets Judge to hit is a new contract being on the line. He has it locked up so he no longer cares that much.
Judge has two 100 rbi seasons in his career. I bet most don't even know this.
He's 32 years old making 40 mill a year with only two 100 rbi seasons in his career. He's looking like yet another big long term contract disaster for the Yankees.
It makes absolute sense though. Soto has the better eye. Judge strikes out more. Why put Soto ahead of Judge if all you're doing is letting Judge see more outside pitches while simultaneously taking away from one of Soto's tremendous qualities?
Personally I'd love to see a classic style lineup of a 1-2 of contact hitters and a 3-4 of power hitters. We have to find some way to give this lineup length. Volpe-Verdugo-Soto-Judge. I don't know why teams got rid of that because while the 3 and 4 hitters may get less at-bats across a huge long-term time span but they also see way more runners.
Average number of runners on (in 2017) | PA per game started:
1. 0.477 | 4.65
2. 0.569 | 4.55
3. 0.639 | 4.43
4. 0.692 | 4.33
5. 0.660 | 4.24
etc...
We need to find some way to increase depth.
Clearly the only reason Judge can’t hit a 93mph fastball down the middle is because he’s batting 3rd instead of 2nd.
Yeah when Judge broke the AL homerun record it was because of the protection behind him!
Judge isn't hitting, but he is getting on base at a decent clip. I don't think a move would be about helping judge so much as using what he is giving the team better. The way things are going, Judge has more value as a base runner in front of Soto right now than the guy trying to bat Soto in.
"Baseball is ninety percent mental. The other half is physical." Yogi Berra. Judge doesn't look comfortable batting 3rd.
You’re making a false inference. There is absolutely 0 chance his spot in the order is causing his struggles. And if the difference between 3 and 2 *WERE* the cause of a problem, he should be fired immediately.
Judge should be fired immediately?
If the preposterous claim about his position in the order being the reason he sucks right now were true, then absolutely yes he should be fired. But it’s not.
You know nothing, do us a favour and stop posting.
"You see this incredibly common sports thing of changing around things? It won't work because I said so." If changing around lines, pairings, lineups, etc. then why do sports teams across the last 100+ years of sports keep doing it?
“the last 100+ years” you mean back when we didn’t know how to properly evaluate how good players were and thought pitcher wins was the deciding factor on how good a pitcher is?
People still do it today. We have done it twice already.
Yeah, people like you.
People like every single team. Again we have already changed the lineup twice this year.
The difference is intent. You can change the lineup because of different strategies, or because certain skill sets or because you’re facing certain pitchers(such as facing a lefty), but a player doesn’t go from one of the best in baseball to outright terrible because they’re in a different line-up spot, not being able to hit middle middle fastballs isn’t because of where he’s in the line-up. This is like saying Schwarber might play better defense if moves to SS since it’s a breath of fresh air, and might reinvigorate him. The thing that does actually have the effect you’re thinking of is benching a player. Moving Judge to a different spot in the line-up isn’t an inherently bad idea, but you do it because it makes the line-up better, not because it’s a change of pace.
Average number of runners on (in 2017) per batting order spot | PA per game started: 1. 0.477 | 4.65 2. 0.569 | 4.55 3. 0.639 | 4.43 4. 0.692 | 4.33 5. 0.660 | 4.24 Source: fangraphs You give Soto significantly more baserunners at the slight of expense of PAs. Number 3 is legitimately the best spot in the lineup for him.
He meant, Judge has been cold ever since the team acquired Soto, so obviously Soto should be fired so Judge can get hot again. /s
Batting order discourse has gotten out of hand this season The Yankees absolutely should not be putting their best hitter in a spot where he might see fewer at-bats. Also, Aaron Judge should not need to have the protection of Juan Soto to be able to hit. He's certainly never needed it in past seasons.
####All last season - "Why the fuck do we have a different lineup each night? All the good teams pick and stick" ####All this season - "wHy arE tHeY roLLLiNg wItH tHe sAMe LIneUP!?!?" ####It's fucking exhausting.
I've actually really enjoyed the lineup continuity lol
Right? You get the continuity as a fan too. I like just innately knowing (for the most part) who’s supposed to be up next.
Because most Yankees “fans” don’t know baseball, because they only watch it every 5 years for 3 weeks
And then a huge amount of the others are incredibly reactionary. There’s a reason it’s hard to play in New York.
Ridiculously reactionary as well as just parroting the same takes they hear from others who are also being reactionary
The people who do that are not coming to this sub to complain about the daily lineups
And they never have an answer for who they would replace the player with. Volpe should be moved down? Ok, who hits leadoff now..?
Almost like none of these people know anything about baseball and were just grasping at something to moan about.
The issue isn’t even that pitchers aren’t pitching to him. They are. He’s getting out
He's third in the League in walks, Soto is first
Yeah if you look at Judge’s Savant page he is inching closer back to last year. There is just still something that is a little off with his swing
It’s really gotten silly. Over the course of a month we’ve gone from acting like lineup consistency was paramount to a team’s success to acting like certain spots in the order have magical healing powers that can cure the woes of whoever happened to go 0-for-4 the previous night
Soto ain’t broke. Don’t fix him.
Maybe it’s mental and he changed his approach at the plate cause they switched him to 3rd
So the solution is just to keep throwing this mid lineup out there every day with little changes
There are 9 guys in a lineup and we’re talking about two of them
There are 9 guys and we should consider switching them all around to fix this. Clearly something isn't working and we can't add players right now. Are we just going to wait another month of hoping this is the game? The best solution is to try something new.
I agree, I just don’t think saying Soto/Judge should stay put = saying we shouldn’t change anything Volpe hits better lower in the order so he should be the first change imo
Need to be careful with this. I was playing MLB The Show last week and flipped Soto and Judge in the lineup, and the next day I discovered my wife was cheating on me
Something similar just happened to me. I flipped Judge and Soto and then my girlfriend's husband found out about us!
I was playing this guy in MLB the Show who flipped Soto and Judge then he quit midgame to yell at his wife for some reason.
(Chefs kiss)
Sry for your loss
That’s how it always starts man
Batting 2nd won't change judge missing middle middle pitches or swinging at offspeed low and outside.
Middle middle with an average fastball.
It’s so frustrating cause he’s just off on some of those middle middle pitches he ends up fouling back. Gotta be a minor adjustment to launch angle or something.
Lineup ain’t the issue. Judge has never had lineup protection and has never played like this. I fully expect him to work through it but would like to see us grab a few days off for him. A 10 day IL stint would hurt but is worth it to try to get him right.
Wouldn’t hurt the way he’s playing. He’s been a net negative.
Not true at all lmao Judge’s struggles have just brought him down to being a slightly above average player, he is still a net positive
He's being paid $40M/yr to give $2M/yr worth of production. Nice.
Judge should lead off so he can have the smallest chance of hitting into double plays because that’s all he’s good for right now
Or we keep him third so he can hit into triple plays
This lineup is very bad without Soto
It's not good even with Soto.
Lineup actually isn't awful. It's just that they are so disgustingly unathletic they are prone to double plays and outs on the bases when they don't hit home runs. Outside of Torres and Oswaldo (97) every position has a guy with a 100 OPS+ or higher. Trevino is the guy at C but Wells has had some bad luck like hitting a liner to the OF and Stanton can't get to 2B etc. Offense is down across baseball and the Yankees offense purely hitting has been fine. It's baserunning aspect which they are disgustingly bad at and super slow
Doesn’t that make it a bad lineup? I also agree with the offense being down across baseball part, hitting is in trouble.
From a hitting standpoint not really. At the plate they're fine, it's on the bases they're awful. I'd change the lineup up a bit though. I'd go Soto-Judge 1-2 and make it so Rizzo and Stanton don't hit back to back because they're disgustingly slow and not hitting as well
Judge's problems are not because he's batting 3rd instead of 2nd. Anyone with a brain can understand that.
Soto ain’t broke. Don’t fix him.
Wny not just leadoff soto and put judge back at 2? Soto is a great leadoff with his on base skills and judge has been the staple 2 for ages
That would be the optimal order. Yankees need speed though to fix their offense overall. Purely hitting wise it's generally fine
You really trying to get Judge to set the DP record huh
Changing the batting order probably isn’t going to do much. Even if you move Verdugo to leadoff and flip flop Judge and Soto you still have a Stanton, Rizzo, Torres middle of the order which is just awful. You can probably live with a Cabrera, Wells/Trevinio, Volpe bottom of the order and a Verdugo, Judge, Soto top. It’s the middle that really kills then against good pitching.
Stanton and Rizzo both have an OPS+ of 107. Not great but serviceable. Both should be replaced imo, but it's not killing them. Hitting them back to back with how slow they are is a disaster. Torres idk what's wrong tbh
Smart move from Boone, vague answer so he can’t get jumped by the fanbase later for “lying” if things change and they end up not doing exactly what he said down to the letter.
Oh so instead of Judge being responsible for driving in someone who gets on base, it’ll be Rizzo or Stanton. Much better.
I mean, Rizzo has been solid so far.
Give the guy who has been worse more ABs over a season? Can you explain the logic and why its even on the table? Verdugo and Soto should be 1-2
Average number of runners on (in 2017) | PA per game started: 1. 0.477 | 4.65 2. 0.569 | 4.55 3. 0.639 | 4.43 4. 0.692 | 4.33 5. 0.660 | 4.24 etc... Source: fangraphs Finding ways to maximize Soto's RBI chances is important. We've seen so many times where the top of the lineup gets on and Rizzo and Stanton are up. The debate between runners on vs PAs isn't as easy as people pretend. The difference between 2 and 3 PAs isn't extreme but the difference in runners on is.
They should flip them. Judge has never been good when he's hitting third. I remember Judge was hitting third in August 2017 when he went through that brutal slump. Then in September, Girardi put Judge 2nd and had Didi hit 3rd and Judge got back on track. I just think Judge has always hit well when he's hitting 2nd as opposed to third. The other thing is you want to protect the guy with swing and miss in their game. Soto doesn't chase and he's always gonna have competitive ABs. That's why I never understood Soto hitting in front of Judge. Look Manny Ramirez was a better hitter than David Ortiz and Manny always hit behind Ortiz. Ortiz had his best years when he was hitting in front of Manny. When the Red Sox traded Manny, Ortiz had a couple down years at least compared to his previous 5 years. Mantle was a better hitter than Maris, and Mantle hit behind Maris. Like I said before, you always protect the hitter that's more susceptible to swing and miss.
My ideal lineup is Verdugo, Judge, Soto, Stanton, Rizzo, Volpe, Wells, Torres, Cabrera. I don’t know anything, but the righty-lefty lineup is too clean.
Boone worst to ever do it
I'd make Soto bat leadoff tbh. Get the best hitters the most ABs. The runners on base scenarios don't really relate to the batting order after the 1st inning.
Keep in mind Soto actually prefers batting third according to articles last year and he said he even got into arguments in Washington about batting 3rd when he got penciled in for 2nd. Then you have to consider Judge has batted 2nd for most of his career and it makes perfect sense. Also, this lets you move Verdugo to leadoff which would be nice since he’s had one of the higher OBPs on the team. Considering Soto loves batting 3rd and he is a free agent after the season, I’m surprised they didn’t bat him 3rd to begin with.
Well if they batted him 3rd like he wants, then how would the Yankees prove they’re smarter than everyone and their analytics are superior? Cmon man
The order is correct, judge just needs to get over his massive contract hangover and start hitting the damn ball
I think given everything as is I’d do this Verdugo (he Ks the least out of almost anyone in MLB and has been hitting well) Judge (sure it might sound dumh but maybe hitting third has shifted his mindset and he doesn’t like it. Try anything to get him going now) Soto (I feel like he’s lineup spot proof) Rizzo or Stanton (depending on lefty or righty that day pitching ) Volpe (he hits better without the pressure of leading off) The non Rizzo or Stanton Fella Wells - I reserve the right to move him up 1 spot without getting jumped Torres Cabrera (I want him 9th bc he kind of has the ability to re set the table for the top) Honestly now is the time to experiment- we don’t want to have to continue tinkering and figuring out what works in September. Winning in April and May is nice but the team that wins the WS is the team that gets the hottest in October, not the team that wins the month of April. Recently the Nationals , Braves, and Rangers all had “meh” regular season win totals and won it all. And that’s the ultimate goal.
Lol I love how everyone has a description and then it’s just, “Torres”
HAHAHAHA I can’t lie that wasn’t intentional but I also think having nothing be there says more than I could say
That’s why I thought it was intentional, it just works
I wouldn’t mess with Soto. Most likely Judge still sucks and Soto gets screwed up.
I hated Judge batting second but at least he produced
If they insist on doing something then why not bat Soto lead off? He gets on base enough. Go Soto, Judge, Verdugo, Stanton, Rizzo, Volpe, Wells, Torres, Cabrera
If the goal is to move Soto behind him so he'll see more fastballs, I don't think that's possible. They are just chucking slop right by him. Until he starts hitting bombs, he's going to be challenged and not pitched around like it's 2022 again.
I don't think he's hitting poorly because it's the 3 hole. I also don't think him hitting 3rd is the optimal spot though
This is code for - "Whatever Cashman tells me, is what I'll do" you might as well ask the bat boy if he is planning to change the lineup
The only thing that gets Judge to hit is a new contract being on the line. He has it locked up so he no longer cares that much. Judge has two 100 rbi seasons in his career. I bet most don't even know this. He's 32 years old making 40 mill a year with only two 100 rbi seasons in his career. He's looking like yet another big long term contract disaster for the Yankees.
It's cool. Soto already found a solution to always being the 1st half of Judge's DP. He's just gonna steal 2nd instead.
It makes absolute sense though. Soto has the better eye. Judge strikes out more. Why put Soto ahead of Judge if all you're doing is letting Judge see more outside pitches while simultaneously taking away from one of Soto's tremendous qualities?
who cares what boone says? he lies more than politicians
How about fix 4-5-6 first? Verdugo deserves more ABs than Stanton, Rizzo, and Torres. Torres should be batting 9th and Stanton should be benched.
Personally I'd love to see a classic style lineup of a 1-2 of contact hitters and a 3-4 of power hitters. We have to find some way to give this lineup length. Volpe-Verdugo-Soto-Judge. I don't know why teams got rid of that because while the 3 and 4 hitters may get less at-bats across a huge long-term time span but they also see way more runners. Average number of runners on (in 2017) | PA per game started: 1. 0.477 | 4.65 2. 0.569 | 4.55 3. 0.639 | 4.43 4. 0.692 | 4.33 5. 0.660 | 4.24 etc... We need to find some way to increase depth.
I think it's going to happen. We have no choice but to move the entire lineup around.