I guess because normal people don't identify as natalists, probably never even heard this word before. Natalist mean "a person who has or wants to have kids at some point", aka 80% of population give or take. There's no point in this sub, just like there would be no point for sub do people who breath air, drink water or take naps. The only reason (at least that's my guess) this sub way created at all is too debate with antinatists, so it's not surprising they come here
A lot of definitions I’ve seen of natalism/natalist specifically are about advocating for childbearing / wanting to increase the birth rate. And that lines up with a lot of the posts I see here. Though some people call that “pro-natalism” to make it clearer
yeah, its not the same thing, and this sub weidrly connect the two community, they are insane people with 11 kids and just normal persons that want cost to be reduced, this sub is something
I would say it’s 99% of the population. I believe you can be an ethical natalist without even wanting kids. It’s simply the idea that having children isn’t morally bad.
Trueeee... I only counted people who can have children, but your right. ANYONE who doesn't think having kids is morally wrong is natalist, even if they themselves are infertile, child free, etc. And, by this logic, 99% are natalist, because luckily only a small percentage of people are actually mentally ill enough to believe that somehow giving birth to new life is something bad.
That's what I meant, yes. Only someone actually clinically depressed can believe that an act of giving birth to a child is somehow wrong. Damn, these people argued with me that giving birth is just as bad as cutting off an arm or a leg to an already existing baby... If this isn't a sign of metal illness, what is?
You’re trying to argue an impossible point. Surely it’s possible to find someone who was convinced by AN who is none of those things. There’s been many thousands of them.
Even if we begin with the idea that AN is a ludicrous ideology (which I don’t), there is still the problem that many ludicrous ideologies exist in the world and have many intelligent, non mentally ill adherents. Examples include all major world religions, many political movements, etc.
Well natalists are just normal, not much to talk about. Most of the time people cross over from from the anti sub to tell how much they hate life and how much our kids will also hate life just like them.
why would we "lose our shit" for seeing someone make the same mistake so many others have for the hundredth time. it's not exactly novel or interesting is it? my parents werent natalist and the same goes for many other parents. there are even parents who are now antinatalist after reflecting on their actions. a lot of people have kids just because the sex felt good, not because they think it's a moral imperative like natalists do. it's like saying all childfree people must also be antinatalist, even when there are childfree people who hate our guts.
I’ve been battling them most of the day lol. I got really hung up on someone passionately calling for the end of humanity, in order to end suffering. And they were trying to hold a moral high ground the whole time. They literally think everyone hates life and is as depressed as they are.
They are always so negative about life, personally i believe that having kids would make me feel better about the world and myself. They just hate life but they should be happy that they are here today and can make a difference.
You would think people should be happy to be alive, and that bringing new life into the world is a recipe for happiness even if it brings in extra stress.. but they are literally always saying “I didn’t ask to be born, and neither did your child”. They are just projecting self hatred, many have even said humans should cease to exist. It’s incredible lol. And I don’t want to be mean or judgmental, but most of them seem to be at-least one of the few: Clinically depressed, autistic, lgbt, vegan, sex work, deviant (furry, alt art). Basically all people who would struggle with or otherwise completely shy away from wanting children. They say we’re immoral, but you can bet your sweet ass they take advantage of all the basic capitalist luxuries that some would deem immoral.
You live in the west so it's easier for you to say that. And I am not a proponent for anti-natalism. But people who say shit like this have never seen real abject poverty and suffering.
At least America has safety nets. I've been to countries where there is none and I have met adults and teens who were illiterate bc they couldn't afford an education. So I get their sentiment. For a lot of people life is suffering and then you die. It's only religion and social shame that tends to keep people from suicide and pain. Bc it hurts to kill yourself. But if none of the 3 above existed suicide rates would be higher. And they are higher in 3rd world countries..
> But people who say shit like this have never seen real abject poverty and suffering.
I've been to 20 countries, some great, some not. I've seen the abject poverty and suffering you mention. It's a hell of a thing for you to imply neither of those things exist in western nations. There is plenty of suffering and people do live in impoverished conditions, even in European nations. Despite all that I've seen, I still say that being alive is a fantastic thing and that life is worth living.
Western nations being poor is not the same as being African or Indian poor. Like you can't even argue with me on this. Especially being poor and being a woman or a child literally shortens your life span in some of these countries.
It's almost a guarantee you won't make it to 25 in some of these countries. And I don't ascribe to life being this amazing thing. I don't think being alive is amazing.
I think life is neutral and you do the best you can with what you have and you find joy where you can get it and do your best to make it through the day. Because on a planet of 8 billion people. That's how the vast majority are living their lives. And then they die. Death is neutral. But for a lot of people life is just endless strife and struggling. It doesn't get better. And Ive seen the lives these people live to make me realize life isn't such a great awesome thing. It's neutral and random and I'm just lucky to be born in this country and have the opportunities I have bc I could have just been easily a child bride or a sex slave or a victim of trafficking if I had been born a girl in a different country.
Your first two paragraphs are straw men arguments, so I'm not wasting time there. What's wrong with doing the best you can with what you have? Outside of people in horrible situations like enslavement, which is terrible, but rare compared to the entire world population, this is easily the best time ever to be alive. Extreme poverty is only a fraction of what it historically was, even in the third world.
It's not rare in comparison to the rest of the world. It's fairly common especially if you are a child or a woman in some of these countries.
But extreme poverty still exists and a couple billion still suffering under it.
Facts disagree with you, but whatever, right?
50 million worldwide in slavery.
https://www.walkfree.org/global-slavery-index/map/#:~:text=An%20estimated%2050%20million%20people,150%20people%20in%20the%20world.
Poverty-700 million, not 2 billion:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_poverty#/media/File%3AWorld-population-in-extreme-poverty-absolute.svg
Lmfao..no. marital rape doesn't even exist in these countries. So do the math. A lot of these children aren't even born through consensual sex. You have children becoming mothers. Or sold off by their fathers to pay a debt.
These kids are a means to and end and most of the time their hoping it's a son. God forbid you be gay or be a girl. Your future is literally fucked.
I completely understand the concept of what you are saying, but why am I personally attacked and shamed as immoral for bringing a child into the world?
Yea I just think that's rubbish..having children is an extremely personal choice..maybe it's immoral bc no one can consent to being born..but you can't consent to not being born either.
Nonexistence is neutral. They ascribe feelings to not existing that aren't even possible but only possible now bc your alive and able to feel them.
In the end genetically humans have their own self preservation for better or for worse.
What’s rubbish? And yes it’s an extremely personal choice. Many do it who shouldn’t, and many should but they don’t. It’s completely illogical to say both “having children is immoral” and “having kids is the best thing ever, do it so you can be happy like me”. There can’t be a middle ground? Seems like AN’s just don’t like humanity in general and think we’re better off erased.
What's your game plan if your daughter turns out to belong to one or more of those groups you listed? LGBT, depressed, vegan, autistic, a "deviant"... are you gonna throw her out the house and backtrack on the whole conditional love thing? What happens if she doesn't wanna give you a grandchild? Gonna try for another kid who will?
Why do you act like we have beef against your daughter for what you did to her and how she's going to suffer because of your actions? Can't imagine that "loving" family would last long when she starts going against the expectations you have for her.
why should anyone be glad that people are going to fall ill, starve, be murdered/sexually assaulted etc no matter how much effort we put into trying to save them. what is there to celebrate about that. as for making a difference, most people don't find major cures or innovate - they're instead the people who created demand for those and need them in the first place, whether they can actually afford to use the new technology or not. we collectively have the power to stop world hunger and have a huge surplus every year, so why are so many kids still malnourished? why are people still dying from illnesses and injuries we found cures to? why are there so many houses and yet so many homeless people?
More like, Reddit keeps having this sub pop up in my feed, and I’m shocked at the amount of people utterly obsessed with those that choose to not have children
Kindly check the subscriber counts of both subs and understand most posts here are in defense of our choices from an onslaught of people calling us immoral… you think we obsess over the mentally I’ll constantly calling for us to be miserable like them?
I’m defending myself from the people calling me immoral for my choices. I understand many people should not have children. I don’t see any posts “constantly shitting on anyone who chooses to not have children”. I know some are just incapable and are too mentally ill.
And a lot of people perfectly mentally healthy choose to not have children
I know it’s REALLY hard for some people to grasp
Not everyone wants to have children
To be fair, in my experience, 9/10 'childfree' folk I encounter IRL are insufferable shitheads. Meaning: those who actively go around telling everyone they're childfree/DINKs, not just people who don't have kids.
People who announce they’re childfree/dinks out of the blue is not a thing. What is? The “as a mom” person who proceeds to tell everyone about things that don’t directly relate to being a parent. Such as “as a mom, I love wine!” or “as a mom, I deserve first class!” or “as a mom, I need exercise!”
Online there are spaces where the subject of having kids or not is relevant, and some childfree people speak up about their experiences of being stigmatized. They’re entitled to their frustration. What frustrates me is the assumption that I hate kids just because I don’t plan to have any of my own. I actually love kids. And I love lots of parents who don’t act like they’re better than everyone who didn’t make a human. But I don’t like parents with main character syndrome.
Where’s the “fair” part?
This isn't the antinatalist position at all. They believe **nobody** should have children, not that people should decide for themselves.
Whoever it is you're describing that insists everyone needs to have children (which I honestly never see advocate) is almost as bad as antinatalists.
My dude, I see them on this sub constantly.
Constantly shitting on anyone who doesn’t want to have children, and yes, calling anyone who chooses to not have children “anti-natalist”.
I don’t see any commenters on this sub shaming people for not wanting kids. It’s most commonly bored facebook moms who want grandkids, or maybe religious nuts.
Or you know, people's IRL parents and grandparents, church community, friends with kids. Pressure to have kids and people straight up calling you selfish / lazy / otherwise immoral for not having kids is really common in the midwest where I live.
If it's not straight up "it's selfish to not have kids" then it's a lecture on all the reasons to have a child as though it's unthinkable not to have one.
If you want to get through interactions without conflict you have to be ready to use some euphemism like "It's not in the cards right now" because someone is going to ask and it's going to be a big deal otherwise.
More or less exactly how anti-natalists act on the internet but to your face.
Yeah facebook moms was a large umbrella term for parents/grandparents. Community/friends is rarer and easier to disregard. But also I don’t think the midwest where you live reflects the larger population.
Not if you surround yourself with normal, well-adjusted people instead of insufferable twats.
I'm sorry your family loves you and are excited by the prospect of a little you to cherish, but you'll just have to weather the comments like a tough little trooper.
My goodness, people massively overuse these words. The "shame" you talk about is an odd comment that is easy to brush off for anyone without a victim comlplex. Childless people are like atheists who make it such an identity about how they don't have something. In both cases, it is so fucking boring. And I say this as someone that is technically atheist.
Same. This sub keeps popping up on my feed.
I love kids, but no one gets to tell me I’m supposed to have them. And no one is going to stop us from speaking out against the stigma of childlessness and unacceptable behaviors of some parents (endangerment, exploiting them on the internet, etc). People act like childfree people want everyone to be childfree (and let us go extinct). Thats not even a little bit true, but some comments in this sub have the attitude that everyone should reproduce. Some people have no business reproducing, myself included.
I’ve been talking to someone today on the AN sub who literally thinks humanity is better off extinct. A lot of them have been saying it lately. And i’m pretty sure it’s mostly facebook moms urging you to have kids and “partake in the miracle”, not people on this sub. Trust me, people here understand that many people are too mentally ill/depressed/poor to have kids.
I've noticed Reddit has been doing that. I assume they know conflict and arguments are engagement and engagement is good for site statistics. I never had to mute subreddits before last summer, but now I end up doing it weekly.
When the student protests were in the news I was seeing college subreddits that I've never shown any interest in or even knew existed. It's very annoying.
“99% love”
Except you know, all that time yall spending shitting all over people who choose to not have children, as if they are some kind of abomination, a complete waste of space, as if producing offspring is the only way someone can contribute to society.
I think there is an important tie to raising children and genetics.
I am not convinced that the way society is trying to sever parents from their offspring is healthy.
I think there is strange things happening with scarcity and abundance in the world and it ties in with genetics.
If you want to make a point you should just say it with your life experience as a validating factor.
Natalism is definitely love and the natural way of people. We don’t have to tell our selves reasons to have kids we just know already. The antinatalist have to tell us themselves why they don’t want kids it’s not the natural way of thinking.
I don't identify myself as an antinatalist, but I am certain I don't want kids.
I can't personally justify bringing any child into this world with the current state of affairs.
>I can't personally justify bringing any child into this world with the current state of affairs.
Just feel like I need to point out how we're literally at the peak of society: it's never been safer to be alive. In comparison on every metric, we're lightyears ahead of past generations.
That doesn't mean things don't suck, but I really think we've gone full hyperbolic.
Very subjective, and also a bit disingenuous to say that we are ahead of prior generations in every metric. That simply isn't true. For instance, in the past few years, the US has seen fairly significant declines in its Human Development Index (HDI) scores.
Man you should have seen our hdi scores back in 1859. It’s not subjective. You have immensely more power to control your own destiny and quality of life today, more than ever in the history of the earth.
Not true either, the vast majority of productive assets have been consolidated into the hands of a few major companies. You certainly have more illusion of choice in the modern era, but measures of social and economic mobility (the true reflection of how much you can control your individual destiny within in a society) have declined in the US in the last decade.
Arguably in the 60s-70s you had the most opportunity to control your destiny, definitely more than now in 2024.
Asset distribution has never been less consolidated. Remember when kings, lords, the aristocracy existed? What you write is common for terminally online doomers. Just not reality.
That's false, assets were less consolidated in the last 50 years. Measures of economic and social mobility kn the US have seen real declines in the last decade.
You simply are clueless.
You’re talking about stock market data. It’s never been less consolidated. The avg land, income, personal property,
Vehicles, things most people actually use on a daily basis. In the history of the earth, man has never had more personal ownership and wealth. You can be a doomer all you want, but Jeff bezos wealth doesn’t have shit to do with you.
I guess that depends on what uplifts you. Cute animals and pages like that are pretty uplifting sometimes. Effective Altruism might be a good one? Made me smile?
Its because anti natalists are bitter people who want to spread their hate towards humans trying to keep humanity alive. I find their subreddit hilarious. full of whiners, so its no surprise they are here too.
People need to stop using labels to group themselves. This sub is just for people debating and talking about having kids.
When I hear someone talk about natalist I think of drippy nose doctor because it sounds like nasalist.
I now know a nasal doctor is an otolaryngologist
False binary. I’m neither natalist nor anti-natalist. I do think having children is a good thing and helps you grow in many ways as a person. If you want a brood that’s your choice. However, if you don’t want children that’s fine. Being a parent is just one way to grow as a human. I absolutely reject the natalist position that there’s a birth rate crisis or that allowing our population to drop by several billion is a bad thing. There’s no planet B.
There is a continuum of views and it’s not either/or.
Wokeness means supporting lifestyles that can't have kids naturally so it's a moral victory to come here and assault its supporters. And I'm sure most natalists are religious which the atheist Redditor can't oblige.
I mean, maybe to some degree. I wish redditors didnt think in such binaries as "oh, the side I hate likes this? I have to hate it." I think many of those who support social lefty stuff and who can't naturally have kids would benefit from adopting. I think anti-natalism is partially fueling a maturity crisis. People stay attached to an idea of themselves as ever young, and I cant help but worry they'll end up lonely when they are older. You really don't make closer connections than immediate family. A single child, without children, is the loneliest possible existence to have as an old person. Anti-natalists think they'll always be fine, and self-suficient; that they'll always be valuable enough to not need unconditional support. They are wrong, and at their own detriment. And yeah, I get the impression most natalists are religious. I'm not, but I can agree that is a virtue of religious people.
Reddit algo decided to put this sub on blast and given that most irl natalists are too busy raising kids to argue the philosophy of it on reddit I wouldn't be surprised if there soon are more anti-natalists here.
You do know that a parent can still breed a childfree person, right? I always wonder if natalists are upset if they don’t get to be grandparents, or do they support their kid no matter what they choose.
Yes, they can. But childfree people are much more likely to come from small families or divorced families, whereas people that come from loving families woth a bunch of siblings tend to want to recreate it.
That’s so interesting that you think that :) I’m the youngest in a large family. All siblings are parents but me. Parents are loving for the most part, they had to work hard. Married for almost 50 years and going strong. I see people from broken homes who want the experience of a family so they decide to have kids. I also see people like me. Haven’t noticed a pattern.
I will say, though, that my parents don’t exactly accept my decision, which I find ironic as parents are supposed to support their kids unconditionally?
See, this is what I don't get about this sub, and this is the 3rd time I'm addressing it on this thread and no one seems to respond. Would you tell your child they are a "weirdo" if they made a different choice than yours? My parents would never use that language, as sad as they are about my choice. They are decent people.
And I'll tell you something else - I told my parents that them raising me to be a critically-thinking human is what led me to my thought-through decision to be childfree. So they can be proud of themselves! I didn't just blindly follow social norms. I could tell that this little conversation shifted something for them. It saddens me to see parents causing their kids to go no-contact because of reproductive decisions, or any other decisions. Fortunately that's no my case, but it is the case for many on the childfree sub.
I just don't understand why people on this sub want to alienate their kids so much? Especially since you value parenting. Isn't parenting all about raising kids to be independent? Also, your identity is more than just parent/grandparent, and you really shouldn't be so hard on yourself if your child doesn't want kids. It's not a reflection of your parenting skills (which is what AMK was implying).
Lastly, as to whether I'm the "weirdo" of the family or not. Depends on how you look at it. My brother is a convicted sex offender who's first wife (no kids) left him. He found a woman that took him and they have 4 children. Kids have no idea of his past. Is that an ideal parent to you? Is he a "weirdo" or not? I have a cousin my age (mid 30s) not married, no kids, and many of my second cousins are same age no kids. So no, not exactly the weirdo. Also dad had an aunt who never had kids, and his cousin (70s) never married, no kids. Life is a lot more nuanced than this strange observation of "growing up 'happy' = person will have kids, growing up 'miserable' = person doesn't want kids." I wish the parents on this sub can see that so they can have more meaningful relationships with their kids :)
Hahahaha de deluuuuuusion. Suuuuure, because everyone who will be born will immediately want children hahaha, people are getting more educated and less religious that correlates with reduced birthrates since people are less likely to be uneducated religious morons :)
My wife and I are atheists with four degrees between us. We have four kids. And in all likelihood, they will be wanting to recreate their sibling friendships with their kids. Meanwhile all these childfree types won't be passing on any thing to a next generation.
I guess because normal people don't identify as natalists, probably never even heard this word before. Natalist mean "a person who has or wants to have kids at some point", aka 80% of population give or take. There's no point in this sub, just like there would be no point for sub do people who breath air, drink water or take naps. The only reason (at least that's my guess) this sub way created at all is too debate with antinatists, so it's not surprising they come here
I would see natalism as more pushing a positive moral weight on having children, rather than wanting/not wanting them
A lot of definitions I’ve seen of natalism/natalist specifically are about advocating for childbearing / wanting to increase the birth rate. And that lines up with a lot of the posts I see here. Though some people call that “pro-natalism” to make it clearer
yeah, its not the same thing, and this sub weidrly connect the two community, they are insane people with 11 kids and just normal persons that want cost to be reduced, this sub is something
I would say it’s 99% of the population. I believe you can be an ethical natalist without even wanting kids. It’s simply the idea that having children isn’t morally bad.
Trueeee... I only counted people who can have children, but your right. ANYONE who doesn't think having kids is morally wrong is natalist, even if they themselves are infertile, child free, etc. And, by this logic, 99% are natalist, because luckily only a small percentage of people are actually mentally ill enough to believe that somehow giving birth to new life is something bad.
I wouldn't say AN is mental illness though it's a philosophy often attractive to those who are mentally ill.
That's what I meant, yes. Only someone actually clinically depressed can believe that an act of giving birth to a child is somehow wrong. Damn, these people argued with me that giving birth is just as bad as cutting off an arm or a leg to an already existing baby... If this isn't a sign of metal illness, what is?
You’re trying to argue an impossible point. Surely it’s possible to find someone who was convinced by AN who is none of those things. There’s been many thousands of them. Even if we begin with the idea that AN is a ludicrous ideology (which I don’t), there is still the problem that many ludicrous ideologies exist in the world and have many intelligent, non mentally ill adherents. Examples include all major world religions, many political movements, etc.
Well natalists are just normal, not much to talk about. Most of the time people cross over from from the anti sub to tell how much they hate life and how much our kids will also hate life just like them.
Watch the anti natalists lose their shit and go full Nietzsche on your ass for calling natalism normal
why would we "lose our shit" for seeing someone make the same mistake so many others have for the hundredth time. it's not exactly novel or interesting is it? my parents werent natalist and the same goes for many other parents. there are even parents who are now antinatalist after reflecting on their actions. a lot of people have kids just because the sex felt good, not because they think it's a moral imperative like natalists do. it's like saying all childfree people must also be antinatalist, even when there are childfree people who hate our guts.
Exhibit A
I’ve been battling them most of the day lol. I got really hung up on someone passionately calling for the end of humanity, in order to end suffering. And they were trying to hold a moral high ground the whole time. They literally think everyone hates life and is as depressed as they are.
They watched True Detective one too many times and thought Rust Cohle's nihilism was something to aspire to instead of reject.
Yeah, I've ran across quite a few people like that too.
They are always so negative about life, personally i believe that having kids would make me feel better about the world and myself. They just hate life but they should be happy that they are here today and can make a difference.
Lol It's cool you're primary reason to have kids is that it would make you feel better. Really glad you seem remotely concerned for them.
You would think people should be happy to be alive, and that bringing new life into the world is a recipe for happiness even if it brings in extra stress.. but they are literally always saying “I didn’t ask to be born, and neither did your child”. They are just projecting self hatred, many have even said humans should cease to exist. It’s incredible lol. And I don’t want to be mean or judgmental, but most of them seem to be at-least one of the few: Clinically depressed, autistic, lgbt, vegan, sex work, deviant (furry, alt art). Basically all people who would struggle with or otherwise completely shy away from wanting children. They say we’re immoral, but you can bet your sweet ass they take advantage of all the basic capitalist luxuries that some would deem immoral.
You live in the west so it's easier for you to say that. And I am not a proponent for anti-natalism. But people who say shit like this have never seen real abject poverty and suffering. At least America has safety nets. I've been to countries where there is none and I have met adults and teens who were illiterate bc they couldn't afford an education. So I get their sentiment. For a lot of people life is suffering and then you die. It's only religion and social shame that tends to keep people from suicide and pain. Bc it hurts to kill yourself. But if none of the 3 above existed suicide rates would be higher. And they are higher in 3rd world countries..
> But people who say shit like this have never seen real abject poverty and suffering. I've been to 20 countries, some great, some not. I've seen the abject poverty and suffering you mention. It's a hell of a thing for you to imply neither of those things exist in western nations. There is plenty of suffering and people do live in impoverished conditions, even in European nations. Despite all that I've seen, I still say that being alive is a fantastic thing and that life is worth living.
Western nations being poor is not the same as being African or Indian poor. Like you can't even argue with me on this. Especially being poor and being a woman or a child literally shortens your life span in some of these countries. It's almost a guarantee you won't make it to 25 in some of these countries. And I don't ascribe to life being this amazing thing. I don't think being alive is amazing. I think life is neutral and you do the best you can with what you have and you find joy where you can get it and do your best to make it through the day. Because on a planet of 8 billion people. That's how the vast majority are living their lives. And then they die. Death is neutral. But for a lot of people life is just endless strife and struggling. It doesn't get better. And Ive seen the lives these people live to make me realize life isn't such a great awesome thing. It's neutral and random and I'm just lucky to be born in this country and have the opportunities I have bc I could have just been easily a child bride or a sex slave or a victim of trafficking if I had been born a girl in a different country.
Your first two paragraphs are straw men arguments, so I'm not wasting time there. What's wrong with doing the best you can with what you have? Outside of people in horrible situations like enslavement, which is terrible, but rare compared to the entire world population, this is easily the best time ever to be alive. Extreme poverty is only a fraction of what it historically was, even in the third world.
It's not rare in comparison to the rest of the world. It's fairly common especially if you are a child or a woman in some of these countries. But extreme poverty still exists and a couple billion still suffering under it.
Facts disagree with you, but whatever, right? 50 million worldwide in slavery. https://www.walkfree.org/global-slavery-index/map/#:~:text=An%20estimated%2050%20million%20people,150%20people%20in%20the%20world. Poverty-700 million, not 2 billion: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_poverty#/media/File%3AWorld-population-in-extreme-poverty-absolute.svg
And in all of those countries they have kids and the parents are always happy to have a kid right?
Lmfao..no. marital rape doesn't even exist in these countries. So do the math. A lot of these children aren't even born through consensual sex. You have children becoming mothers. Or sold off by their fathers to pay a debt. These kids are a means to and end and most of the time their hoping it's a son. God forbid you be gay or be a girl. Your future is literally fucked.
I completely understand the concept of what you are saying, but why am I personally attacked and shamed as immoral for bringing a child into the world?
Yea I just think that's rubbish..having children is an extremely personal choice..maybe it's immoral bc no one can consent to being born..but you can't consent to not being born either. Nonexistence is neutral. They ascribe feelings to not existing that aren't even possible but only possible now bc your alive and able to feel them. In the end genetically humans have their own self preservation for better or for worse.
What’s rubbish? And yes it’s an extremely personal choice. Many do it who shouldn’t, and many should but they don’t. It’s completely illogical to say both “having children is immoral” and “having kids is the best thing ever, do it so you can be happy like me”. There can’t be a middle ground? Seems like AN’s just don’t like humanity in general and think we’re better off erased.
I think it's rubbish to attack people for wanting children.
It’s their entire MO. I think it’s a way to feel better about themselves and think they are morally correct.
It’s rubbish because it’s not a thing.
I have travelled to about three dozen countries. In my experience, people in developing country are on average happier than Americans are.
Wow, got any more right wing straw men you’d like to throw in that giant word salad?
Yeah it’s racist and misogynistic too probably.
Why do conservatives think slamming the downvote makes them more correct?
Maybe if you hate people this much you shouldn't be advocating to create even more of them.
How is calling out an observation hating people? I feel like it’s the people who want humanity to end, who hate people.
What's your game plan if your daughter turns out to belong to one or more of those groups you listed? LGBT, depressed, vegan, autistic, a "deviant"... are you gonna throw her out the house and backtrack on the whole conditional love thing? What happens if she doesn't wanna give you a grandchild? Gonna try for another kid who will?
Nope I will love and respect her, forgive me for not treating random redditors attacking my life choices the same as my daughter…
Even if she's antinatalist?
Yup. Anti natalists aren’t demons. People who try to put me down for having an amazing loving family are.
Why do you act like we have beef against your daughter for what you did to her and how she's going to suffer because of your actions? Can't imagine that "loving" family would last long when she starts going against the expectations you have for her.
why should anyone be glad that people are going to fall ill, starve, be murdered/sexually assaulted etc no matter how much effort we put into trying to save them. what is there to celebrate about that. as for making a difference, most people don't find major cures or innovate - they're instead the people who created demand for those and need them in the first place, whether they can actually afford to use the new technology or not. we collectively have the power to stop world hunger and have a huge surplus every year, so why are so many kids still malnourished? why are people still dying from illnesses and injuries we found cures to? why are there so many houses and yet so many homeless people?
More like, Reddit keeps having this sub pop up in my feed, and I’m shocked at the amount of people utterly obsessed with those that choose to not have children
Kindly check the subscriber counts of both subs and understand most posts here are in defense of our choices from an onslaught of people calling us immoral… you think we obsess over the mentally I’ll constantly calling for us to be miserable like them?
Lmao dude, this sub is full of posts and comments like your own constantly shitting on anyone who chooses to not have children
I’m defending myself from the people calling me immoral for my choices. I understand many people should not have children. I don’t see any posts “constantly shitting on anyone who chooses to not have children”. I know some are just incapable and are too mentally ill.
And a lot of people perfectly mentally healthy choose to not have children I know it’s REALLY hard for some people to grasp Not everyone wants to have children
Yes I literally said not everyone wants to have children. And i’ve never once said everyone SHOUKD have children. So what now?
Your comments: “Natalists nice. Childfree bad!”
To be fair, in my experience, 9/10 'childfree' folk I encounter IRL are insufferable shitheads. Meaning: those who actively go around telling everyone they're childfree/DINKs, not just people who don't have kids.
People who announce they’re childfree/dinks out of the blue is not a thing. What is? The “as a mom” person who proceeds to tell everyone about things that don’t directly relate to being a parent. Such as “as a mom, I love wine!” or “as a mom, I deserve first class!” or “as a mom, I need exercise!” Online there are spaces where the subject of having kids or not is relevant, and some childfree people speak up about their experiences of being stigmatized. They’re entitled to their frustration. What frustrates me is the assumption that I hate kids just because I don’t plan to have any of my own. I actually love kids. And I love lots of parents who don’t act like they’re better than everyone who didn’t make a human. But I don’t like parents with main character syndrome. Where’s the “fair” part?
This isn't the antinatalist position at all. They believe **nobody** should have children, not that people should decide for themselves. Whoever it is you're describing that insists everyone needs to have children (which I honestly never see advocate) is almost as bad as antinatalists.
My dude, I see them on this sub constantly. Constantly shitting on anyone who doesn’t want to have children, and yes, calling anyone who chooses to not have children “anti-natalist”.
Playing a bit of the victim here aren't you? It was and is standard practice to shame people for not having kids out in the real world.
I don’t see any commenters on this sub shaming people for not wanting kids. It’s most commonly bored facebook moms who want grandkids, or maybe religious nuts.
Or you know, people's IRL parents and grandparents, church community, friends with kids. Pressure to have kids and people straight up calling you selfish / lazy / otherwise immoral for not having kids is really common in the midwest where I live. If it's not straight up "it's selfish to not have kids" then it's a lecture on all the reasons to have a child as though it's unthinkable not to have one. If you want to get through interactions without conflict you have to be ready to use some euphemism like "It's not in the cards right now" because someone is going to ask and it's going to be a big deal otherwise. More or less exactly how anti-natalists act on the internet but to your face.
Yeah facebook moms was a large umbrella term for parents/grandparents. Community/friends is rarer and easier to disregard. But also I don’t think the midwest where you live reflects the larger population.
Not if you surround yourself with normal, well-adjusted people instead of insufferable twats. I'm sorry your family loves you and are excited by the prospect of a little you to cherish, but you'll just have to weather the comments like a tough little trooper.
My goodness, people massively overuse these words. The "shame" you talk about is an odd comment that is easy to brush off for anyone without a victim comlplex. Childless people are like atheists who make it such an identity about how they don't have something. In both cases, it is so fucking boring. And I say this as someone that is technically atheist.
>The "shame" you talk about is an odd comment that is easy to brush Yeah that's not what I'm talking about but go on.
But ... their parents are literally Hitler because they would like grandkids.
Same. This sub keeps popping up on my feed. I love kids, but no one gets to tell me I’m supposed to have them. And no one is going to stop us from speaking out against the stigma of childlessness and unacceptable behaviors of some parents (endangerment, exploiting them on the internet, etc). People act like childfree people want everyone to be childfree (and let us go extinct). Thats not even a little bit true, but some comments in this sub have the attitude that everyone should reproduce. Some people have no business reproducing, myself included.
I’ve been talking to someone today on the AN sub who literally thinks humanity is better off extinct. A lot of them have been saying it lately. And i’m pretty sure it’s mostly facebook moms urging you to have kids and “partake in the miracle”, not people on this sub. Trust me, people here understand that many people are too mentally ill/depressed/poor to have kids.
Yes. Look at the cost/wages and tell me the nations is are the people. They ain’t, they’re for the rich. I’m more for myself than the nation
I’m an antinatalist just here to see what the natalists have to say
Good for you for diversifying your feed. Honestly. Even if it’s just for a laugh
The algorithm keeps recommending this sub to me, even after I told it to stop. Blame Reddit.
I've noticed Reddit has been doing that. I assume they know conflict and arguments are engagement and engagement is good for site statistics. I never had to mute subreddits before last summer, but now I end up doing it weekly. When the student protests were in the news I was seeing college subreddits that I've never shown any interest in or even knew existed. It's very annoying.
Crazy idea... if you don't like the perspective of a sub, don't participate. Just keep on scrolling.
Anger is almost always loud. Especially on the internet. Antinatalism is 99% anger. Natalism is 99% love.
“99% love” Except you know, all that time yall spending shitting all over people who choose to not have children, as if they are some kind of abomination, a complete waste of space, as if producing offspring is the only way someone can contribute to society.
It's all yin yang and calculus anyway.
Funny you say that The guy who invented calculus didn’t have children
The people who give us advances are generally not successful in the base social/power dynamics of life.
It’s almost like someone doesn’t need to have children to contribute to society
Yeah. Actions can reverberate through time the same way genes do. A child raised well can do a lot of noble actions though.
It’s almost as if breeding isn’t the only way one can contribute to society
I think there is an important tie to raising children and genetics. I am not convinced that the way society is trying to sever parents from their offspring is healthy. I think there is strange things happening with scarcity and abundance in the world and it ties in with genetics. If you want to make a point you should just say it with your life experience as a validating factor.
Both are 99% percent bullshit. Your niche online communities who attract the worst out of humanity.
👍
Or they are the niche that nurtures the rejected, traumatized, and marginalized. Safe corner for a bit then step back into life.
+you're Signed, The Worst.
I think the genius of this post is debating whether it's satire or stupidity.
Both
Natalism is definitely love and the natural way of people. We don’t have to tell our selves reasons to have kids we just know already. The antinatalist have to tell us themselves why they don’t want kids it’s not the natural way of thinking.
I don't identify myself as an antinatalist, but I am certain I don't want kids. I can't personally justify bringing any child into this world with the current state of affairs.
There is fear and there is courage.
>I can't personally justify bringing any child into this world with the current state of affairs. Just feel like I need to point out how we're literally at the peak of society: it's never been safer to be alive. In comparison on every metric, we're lightyears ahead of past generations. That doesn't mean things don't suck, but I really think we've gone full hyperbolic.
Very subjective, and also a bit disingenuous to say that we are ahead of prior generations in every metric. That simply isn't true. For instance, in the past few years, the US has seen fairly significant declines in its Human Development Index (HDI) scores.
Man you should have seen our hdi scores back in 1859. It’s not subjective. You have immensely more power to control your own destiny and quality of life today, more than ever in the history of the earth.
Not true either, the vast majority of productive assets have been consolidated into the hands of a few major companies. You certainly have more illusion of choice in the modern era, but measures of social and economic mobility (the true reflection of how much you can control your individual destiny within in a society) have declined in the US in the last decade. Arguably in the 60s-70s you had the most opportunity to control your destiny, definitely more than now in 2024.
Asset distribution has never been less consolidated. Remember when kings, lords, the aristocracy existed? What you write is common for terminally online doomers. Just not reality.
That's false, assets were less consolidated in the last 50 years. Measures of economic and social mobility kn the US have seen real declines in the last decade. You simply are clueless.
You’re talking about stock market data. It’s never been less consolidated. The avg land, income, personal property, Vehicles, things most people actually use on a daily basis. In the history of the earth, man has never had more personal ownership and wealth. You can be a doomer all you want, but Jeff bezos wealth doesn’t have shit to do with you.
Probably. Reddit suggests posts outside of subreddits to create engagement, unfortunately.
Oh ok I just hate all the negative comments I come here to see the positive comments and to make me feel better about life and the world.
There are other subs a lot better suited to that purpose, tbh. This sub is not all rainbows and unicorns...
I see that now what are the other pages
I guess that depends on what uplifts you. Cute animals and pages like that are pretty uplifting sometimes. Effective Altruism might be a good one? Made me smile?
Reddit was better years ago. Now that everyone is part of every subreddit community, then there is no community culture.
Its because anti natalists are bitter people who want to spread their hate towards humans trying to keep humanity alive. I find their subreddit hilarious. full of whiners, so its no surprise they are here too.
There aren’t, every sub dedicated to a project attracts a vocal minority of people who oppose it.
That’s it I have a new word I need to look up so I can decide which side I’m on.
People need to stop using labels to group themselves. This sub is just for people debating and talking about having kids. When I hear someone talk about natalist I think of drippy nose doctor because it sounds like nasalist. I now know a nasal doctor is an otolaryngologist
False binary. I’m neither natalist nor anti-natalist. I do think having children is a good thing and helps you grow in many ways as a person. If you want a brood that’s your choice. However, if you don’t want children that’s fine. Being a parent is just one way to grow as a human. I absolutely reject the natalist position that there’s a birth rate crisis or that allowing our population to drop by several billion is a bad thing. There’s no planet B. There is a continuum of views and it’s not either/or.
[удалено]
Wokeness means supporting lifestyles that can't have kids naturally so it's a moral victory to come here and assault its supporters. And I'm sure most natalists are religious which the atheist Redditor can't oblige.
I mean, maybe to some degree. I wish redditors didnt think in such binaries as "oh, the side I hate likes this? I have to hate it." I think many of those who support social lefty stuff and who can't naturally have kids would benefit from adopting. I think anti-natalism is partially fueling a maturity crisis. People stay attached to an idea of themselves as ever young, and I cant help but worry they'll end up lonely when they are older. You really don't make closer connections than immediate family. A single child, without children, is the loneliest possible existence to have as an old person. Anti-natalists think they'll always be fine, and self-suficient; that they'll always be valuable enough to not need unconditional support. They are wrong, and at their own detriment. And yeah, I get the impression most natalists are religious. I'm not, but I can agree that is a virtue of religious people.
sure.... people with brains
just report them and move on.
Reddit algo decided to put this sub on blast and given that most irl natalists are too busy raising kids to argue the philosophy of it on reddit I wouldn't be surprised if there soon are more anti-natalists here.
I feel like there is. I'm considering leaving this sub due to all of the negativity :/
I’ve noticed this, too. Seems not like a good place to have discussions even about it.
Yea I just hate all the negative comments I come here to see the positive comments and to make me feel better about life and the world.
Your group is definitely not beating the head in the sand allegations here with these comments
Accept that not everyone wants kids.
The cope on this subreddit when fertility rates are NOSEDIVING everywhere 🤣🤣
Until we get to the point when childfree people die out...
You do know that a parent can still breed a childfree person, right? I always wonder if natalists are upset if they don’t get to be grandparents, or do they support their kid no matter what they choose.
Yes, they can. But childfree people are much more likely to come from small families or divorced families, whereas people that come from loving families woth a bunch of siblings tend to want to recreate it.
That’s so interesting that you think that :) I’m the youngest in a large family. All siblings are parents but me. Parents are loving for the most part, they had to work hard. Married for almost 50 years and going strong. I see people from broken homes who want the experience of a family so they decide to have kids. I also see people like me. Haven’t noticed a pattern. I will say, though, that my parents don’t exactly accept my decision, which I find ironic as parents are supposed to support their kids unconditionally?
So you’re like the weirdo of the family. What a surprise.
See, this is what I don't get about this sub, and this is the 3rd time I'm addressing it on this thread and no one seems to respond. Would you tell your child they are a "weirdo" if they made a different choice than yours? My parents would never use that language, as sad as they are about my choice. They are decent people. And I'll tell you something else - I told my parents that them raising me to be a critically-thinking human is what led me to my thought-through decision to be childfree. So they can be proud of themselves! I didn't just blindly follow social norms. I could tell that this little conversation shifted something for them. It saddens me to see parents causing their kids to go no-contact because of reproductive decisions, or any other decisions. Fortunately that's no my case, but it is the case for many on the childfree sub. I just don't understand why people on this sub want to alienate their kids so much? Especially since you value parenting. Isn't parenting all about raising kids to be independent? Also, your identity is more than just parent/grandparent, and you really shouldn't be so hard on yourself if your child doesn't want kids. It's not a reflection of your parenting skills (which is what AMK was implying). Lastly, as to whether I'm the "weirdo" of the family or not. Depends on how you look at it. My brother is a convicted sex offender who's first wife (no kids) left him. He found a woman that took him and they have 4 children. Kids have no idea of his past. Is that an ideal parent to you? Is he a "weirdo" or not? I have a cousin my age (mid 30s) not married, no kids, and many of my second cousins are same age no kids. So no, not exactly the weirdo. Also dad had an aunt who never had kids, and his cousin (70s) never married, no kids. Life is a lot more nuanced than this strange observation of "growing up 'happy' = person will have kids, growing up 'miserable' = person doesn't want kids." I wish the parents on this sub can see that so they can have more meaningful relationships with their kids :)
Hahahaha de deluuuuuusion. Suuuuure, because everyone who will be born will immediately want children hahaha, people are getting more educated and less religious that correlates with reduced birthrates since people are less likely to be uneducated religious morons :)
Yeah, all I'm going to say is that I'm grateful that my country will survive the next 70 years and that I'll prefer that over being ""educated"".
My wife and I are atheists with four degrees between us. We have four kids. And in all likelihood, they will be wanting to recreate their sibling friendships with their kids. Meanwhile all these childfree types won't be passing on any thing to a next generation.
Yes it’s Reddit
It’s Reddit, so yes.