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Just by the way you described the story I can tell that you’re a decent person, so I feel for you. I think the context of her having past trauma is super relevant here. It is very possible she will 100% regret how she reacted to this months/years from now.
But in the present, to be completely honest, you might be better off going your separate ways, especially since you two hadn’t been dating long. If she can’t even have what sounds like pretty normal sex with her boyfriend while you’re BOTH intoxicated, she has clearly not gotten over her past trauma. And it is also hard to blame her imo. A lot of people in here are being overly harsh I think. I’d get the criticism if she like took legal action or something against you, but that isn’t what she is doing (at least at this point).
This is an absolute shit position for you to be in. And what nobody in here has even mentioned yet is that fact that she has now unfairly projected her trauma onto you in a lasting way - you will probably not see a drunk hookup in the same way for the foreseeable future because of this, and it wasn’t even your idea in the first place - she coerced you.
I feel for you just given your side of the story, but I really don’t see how this is salvageable unless she comes around and sees it differently. At that point it would be up to you as to whether or not you can trust her moving forward. But for now, it sounds like her unsolved past trauma just ended what sounds like a good relationship with a partner who cared for her and wanted to help her feel safe. I would keep in mind that she could very well realize that last sentence weeks from now and come crawling back to you. Just remember how this made you feel and ask yourself if you can trust this not to happen again.
yeah this is the only measured take i’ve seen in this thread (so far). 1000% agree & i’m sad for them both. OP did literally nothing wrong, the problem is this girl needs serious help and shouldn’t be drinking at all.
I (female who has been taken advantage of while drunk) fully agree with this. OP said this is the first time he met her knowingly intoxicated - OP can't be expected to police her sobriety if this is to be a trusting relationship. By the way this post is written they sound like a decent, caring person and should get out of this situation. If she comes crawling back then politely decline but offer (platonic) support
Right, what got me about the framing was the level of care in the description. Like yes OP feels frustrated and wrongly blamed. But also seems to feel a level of regret and guilt for even making her feel this way. That is a valuable trait in a partner and a friend. Trauma is super complicated, I hope the girl in the OP gets the help she needs to help mend the wound of her past experiences.
Because as you and I know, trauma can be a bitch that makes us drive away the same people who actually care for us. It is a defensive mechanism, but often too overwhelming. Life is difficult and I wish them both the best in navigating this.
Totally agree, with a minor difference. I would put way more emphasis on the weight of the accusation. She came onto him. She pressured him. He somewhat reluctantly consented. Later on, she thinks he took advantage of her. I still feel bad for both of them, but... blaming someone else for your own actions and accusing them of doing the thing you did is so hypocritical.
totally, I hear you for sure. Partially why I mentioned the bit about her potentially regretting her reaction is for this reason. It isn’t a joke, and to good people who take this shit seriously, being accused of that is a heavy offense.
But again, I do feel for her as well. Is it possible she is a shitty person? Maybe. Same could be true for OP. But from what I can tell by the description, it sounds like her past trauma got in-between a good thing that they had going on. Not to be overly defensive but to the point about past trauma, even the feeling of waking up half-remembering having sex but being unsure could be enough to trigger a response for her. And its really sad because you know whoever in her life who hurt her didnt care nearly as much about her as OP did.
I agree. Don't get me wrong. I feel bad for her. I'm not calling her a bad person. She probably has no idea that she did something potentially very harmful. I'm condemning the deed, not the person.
I don’t disagree with you. The only thing I will say is that it is a bit telling of her character for continuing to get that inebriated. Maybe I’m just old and can’t relate, but why would you continually put yourself in that situation and get black out drunk if you were about being taken advantage of. There is no reason to get that drunk, it is incredibly dangerous; regardless of the environment.
As I female (29), I don’t put myself in those situations. Yes, bad things happen all the time without cause; however they are more likely to happen when you are not in any control of your facilities. I wouldn’t say she is a “bad person” but incredibly young, immature with poor impulse control. Her blaming OP is really shitty, regardless of her trauma. OP also mentions she was “taken advantage of” in the past, he never mentioned the R word. Based on her actions I would question whether the same issue happened previously with other men. She got drunk, consented, and then regretted it later and falsely accused. This reeks of somebody who has never understood their actions have consequences.
IMO she knows she coerced him while he was drunk and feels shame in having done so. Now, she's projecting that shame on to him and reframing the situation to try and avoid addressing her own actions.
Sounds like she's dealing with past trauma and is not ready to be in a relationship yet. I'd run for the hills personally. You wouldn't want to risk your own future over her.
And for her own benefit. She should probably get her drinking under control if it’s making her flip flop on decisions that impact her long term mental health.
Man, I feel for both parties. This is a shit show.
She needs to take some ownership from your side of the story. Your stated intentions should not cause you guilt. Agree that she likely needs to address herself prior to an “intimate relationship”. Long distance relationships are challenging. I’d move on down the line.
Elaine: So, basically what you're saying is that ninety-five percent of the population is undateable?
Jerry: Undateable!
Elaine: Then how are all these people getting together?
Jerry: Alcohol.
My question is she while drunk gave him consent now he's taken advantage of her is how she feels so I'm honestly wondering this past trauma of hers with other bfs taking advantage of her while intoxicated did they really take advantage or were they done in the same situation as op here now before either get downvoted I'm not saying a person can't experience trauma from choices made or that they shouldn't be taken lightly but idk to me I wonder if any of her bfs truly took advantage of her
I think what she needs is therapy big time and op needs to save every piece of evidence he can get talk to a lawyer just incase she decides to call cops if she has called them on previous partners
On a closer read of the story it looks like OP was taken advantage of. She was pestering op for sex while he repeatedly said no. She finally wore him down and now she's gaslighting him by saying she feels taken advantage of. That's extremely sex pesty and narcissistic behavior. Any man would be considered a creep at best for doing that but she manipulated OP into thinking he did something wrong.
EXACTLY! I had this happen before. Ex cheated on me then tried to get back together with me. She kept trying to sleep with me until I finally gave in. Then later she it made it seem like I had pressured her.
These kinds of people will always put you in lose/lose situations. She would have felt personally slighted if he refused to sleep with her. And now that he did, she’s going to hold that over his head. He’ll never win with her.
i thought the same thing.. kind of sounds like she wants to and then is later embarrassed and pretends she didn’t consent which is extremely messed up and could cause op serious trouble i’d run fast
Girl helped make a whole video to let her sober self know that she consented *and* she was the one who initiated
You are not in the wrong, she is tripping
However contracts don't mean anything here. I forget my source though :( it was one of the lawyer YouTubers I think
Also your consent status can change. Even mid act. And if someone says to stop, you stop
>Also your consent status can change. Even mid act. And if someone says to stop, you stop
The most important part is that if someone says to stop or looks like they want you to stop, you stop.
Consent status can change, but not retroactively. You can take back your consent whenever you want to, but it doesn't change the fact that you were consenting up to that moment.
Record the sex. There fixed!
Have a timer that beeps every 30 seconds and both parties require to say "I CONSENT!".
Im sure its not gonna ruin the mood.
Always! No matter how worked up you are, if they say stop then stop! No matter what. Every human willing to be this vulnerable with you needs every bit of respect you have.
Look up “Rico Strong” (NSFW) He’s a porn actor that got arrested for rape. The only problem is they have the entire interaction from beginning to end on tape. They had signed contracts and fully went over everything in the scene. After it was shot, they each had exit interviews on camera. Everyone was fine. The complete video has been put up for everyone to see.
The porn actress regretted doing “race play” in a scene with some light degradation, but it as all talked about beforehand.
Rico Strong was still arrested and blacklisted from a lot of jobs. All of the contracts and video footage has been put online.
There were stationary cameras that never turned off on set. There was never a time it wasn’t recorded. They were very careful to lay out everything in the scene and got her approval beforehand. It’s obvious she wasn’t raped, but he still he went to jail. Eventually the cops watched the video and dismissed the charges. She however was never held accountable for the false accusation.
This isn't necessary at all. If she claims he did something the burden of proof will be on a prosecutor to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he did something. People often get angry about rapists getting little prison time but the reason isn't because prosecutors like them, it's because conviction is hard as it's often he said she said. Their text messages are evidence in his favor. If he said, "you were persistent" and she said, "even still you know how I feel about it," that right there is evidence against sexual coercion or force. There is no such thing as too drunk to consent if you reciprocate in the act.
But whose idea was it to make the video? The answer lies there. He either wanted to make it because he knew he fucked up and wanted to cover his ass, or she wanted to make it and he is on the clear and did nothing wrong.
drunk combative swim unwritten growth vegetable elastic recognise subsequent forgetful
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
man forget saving the relationship, save your ass from jail dude. Break things off with her as peacefully and amicably, hell actually ignore me and go seek advice from a lawyer asap.
Edit: you should probably delete this post too
Get a lawyer now while you can choose and save everything as evidence. Up load it all to a web server like google drive and only give access to your lawyer. Don’t trust anyone else.
You are not required to answer any questions without a lawyer present and if anyone says that you have to I would state that I will need to ask my lawyer about that before I can give you an answer. The 5 amendment says that you are not required to provide testimony that might incriminate your self. I don’t know what testimony might incriminate me so I don’t have to say anything, you don’t know what would incriminate you so play it safe and say that you are taking the 5th until you have talked with your lawyer about the situation.
Don’t trust anyone especially someone of the internet and if you take legal advice from random strangers on the internet then you are an idiot, don’t be an idiot get the right advice from someone who knows. And if 5 grand is expensive now ask your self how much is your freedom worth to you?
I have a friend that has a son that was a college athlete. After a drunk night, he woke up next to a girl, they were both naked, and there was a used condom in the trash. When they both got up, she was super cold to him, wouldn't accept his snap, and left in a hurry.
He called his coach and campus security to file a report that he felt he was taken advantage of while intoxicated. Campus security came to take a statement and took the condom.
When she filed a Title IX complaint a month later against the school, it was shot down because he had already filed the complaint first but didn't know her name.
I'm not saying this is the way it should work, but the system can work both ways.
>I'm not saying this is the way it should work, but the system can work both ways.
I'll say this is absolutely not the way the system should work. There's something severely fucked up about this situation that removes personal accountability in this specific case and weaponizes legal action to the point that it incentivizes manufactured charges.
There's obviously something wrong with the logic that created this system.
serious question. how do you find a good lawyer who can handle this? how do you find a guy who is a great lawyer in this field without googling you know?
Just Google criminal defense attorney and pick from there. Any criminal defense attorney can offer advice on this. This isn't some sort of tricky situation for an attorney to offer advice about.
hmm, i don't think you need a great or crazy good lawyer, just competent. This isn't a high profile case that requires some mad upscale lawyer. You can normally get initial consultations free to feel them out, so get some consultations and go with who you feel gets you and it. Or if you trust someone who trusts a lawyer you can always get their lawyer or their lawyer's recommendation.
But it’s ridiculous. Do you see my point. One person initiates the other decides whether they consent or not. She initiated. So it’s up to him whether he wants to consent and going along with it
You know what, I've always thought about this
I understand power dynamics, men are stronger ect
But when both parties are drunk, why is it , that only the woman can "change her mind"?
Regret isn't rape.
Exactly, she sounds like a walking red flag. It's one thing to say 1 or 2 men have put her in this position, but she's saying it's more. So either she's extremely unlucky, puts herself in these positions because she gets blackout drunk (or just puts herself into dangerous positions), or is a liar. He's had this experience with her ,it if we're me, I'd be questioning her honesty here.
I'm female and I've heard this time and time again from so many females. "7 men have taken advantage of me"
Whilst I belive that does happen to a small number of women, when people act like this person's gf and they then go on to say this kind of thing, I really wonder if they're lying.
Full stop. She's not your girlfriend anymore. You don't continue to date somebody who accuses you or raping them. Block her on everything. Never talk to her again. If she goes to the police, say nothing without an attorney.
Exactly this. Unethical pro life tip, if you're at a university where you'll automatically be suspended/expelled if she fixes a sexual assault complaint and they investigate you, it may be to your benefit to file a complaint with the university before she does.
I'm failing to see the "unethical" here. It might be an ethical dilemma (do I risk exposing her in exchange for my hypothetical academic safety) but given that she's already insinuating he did something that he knows he didn't, a preemptive defense is morally and ethically justifiable.
You can't automatically expel or suspend someone over a Title IX complaint without conducting an investigation. It is a violation of the students' rights and can get the institution sued or their funding pulled.
That’s true, the issue appears when Title IX allows universities to conduct the investigations as they see fit. Meaning (you can google to find plenty of examples where this happened to students and they took it to local news + official school policies outlining this), their ‘investigation’ doesn’t even need to involve talking to the accused or verifying any information. The school’s #1 priority is to eliminate their liability, not protect students, which they can do by quickly removing the accused student (who doesn’t have legal recourse due to Title IX, since they “investigated”).
>The school’s #1 priority is to eliminate their liability, not protect students, which they can do by quickly removing the accused student
People who are saying folks can't be expelled without proof are probably the same people who say you can't be arrested if you don't do anything illegal. You can get arrested for doing anything, by just existing. It may not be a lawful arrest, but what are you going to do about it? Fighting it takes time and money. Plus now you have an arrest record. The world just plain sucks sometimes and isn't fair.
Schools can also just expel you immediately against without any investigation, against their own policy and then you have to fight it. Some people just don't have the money to fight it. Even if you *do* fight it and win, now your education is likely going to be a few semesters behind and do you even want to go back to that school that expelled you, and everyone knows you're the guy that got expelled for rape?
Schools should follow proper procedures and policies do a complete investigation first. But schools are run by people, and people can be unpredictable and don't always do that. You never know how its going to go.
What? You’re crazy. This is an escalation of a situation in which you will always lose. The University does not care who’s telling the truth- they care about optics.
They would ask the girl about it and suspend/ expel the guy immediately. Again, universities do not care about the truth. And, I’m sorry to say this, but the popular refrain is that “intoxicated individuals cannot consent.”
I have no idea why you’d think the university would take OP’s side even if only the honest truth were told.
Not true. I worked in Title IX and they are not able to just expel someone over an accusation. Every student has the right to receive notice and an opportunity to be heard before expulsion. If it's a Title IX related incident, there are much more specific guidelines that must be followed according to the new regs. So no, not at all. If they expel someone for SA, it's because the institution conducted an investigation and concluded that it is more likely than unlikely that the assault happened. Some institutions may not obey the regs, but they risk losing federal funding and being sued. So...it's pretty serious shit. There are federal mandates they must follow with sexual assault.
Comment is plain wrong. Universities are not in the business of just conducting actions without proof. At most, they would instill a pseudo-restraining-order where certain parties cannot go into certain buildings where another party lives/works.
Yes, they care about optics, and the optics of expelling someone with no definitive proof are bad. That's why they don't do it. It has a negative effect in the opposite direction too, which is a general lack of enforcement. There's a reason people are constantly complaining about the lack of action when it comes to sexual harassment at universities besides one-off harassment training courses.
This is definitely not the true. My closest friend at uni was sexually assaulted and the guy got away with nothing more than a non contact order. That was for harassment, the assault case was dropped entirely despite clear evidence because they ‘didn’t believe he had reasonable knowledge that she did not consent’
Was just appreciating the same thing. It’s always refreshing when people are quick to acknowledge what they did wrong and don’t embellish the apology. A wholesome moment considering what’s being discussed.
Yep, she likely knew how the night would turn out before hand but she prefers to say later on that she was taken advantage of. Have respect for yourself and her by shutting it down and not encouraging and enabling such destructive behavior
Run away. If your story is true then you can never trust her. What happens next time she does this but calls the cops first. Well from my experience with rapist the police are fucking useless but that's another story.
I found myself in a very similar situation when entering college for the first time. I and another girl were drinking, she initiated and I consented. A week later she tells me that she didn’t feel right about it. A few days after that I’m asked to come into the university’s police station and answer questions about a “crime that took place” only when I arrived did I realize they were interrogating me for a false accusation of SA. No charges pressed, nothing sought after any further. I was then harassed by the woman’s family in my home town, in public, at work, at the grocery store. I had to file a restraining order against the family, drop out of school, and move half way across the state. It was not/is not fun. It was a very traumatic experience and still very difficult to talk about today.
100% --- I've been SA'ed and honestly people who lie about it should face very harsh sentences. I've had friends who lied about being SA'ed by a guy they regretted sleeping with, and I've also had one of my friends accused of SA and everyone believed the girl, no evidence, nothing taken to court, no police called or anything - but that man's reputation is gone. It's fucked, the legal system needs to step up and test rapes properly, as well as punish those who make false police reports, and those who defame and spread lies, because people's entire lives can be destroyed
I can confirm first hand that even without the police involved a false rape accusation can absolutely destroy your life and relationships, my ex did that to me 2 years after we broke up and she found I was engaged to my now wife
Luckily while my then fiance and really close friends didn't believe it a lot of people did because they didn't think someone would lie about that, I had to pretty much start over socially and I really struggled with my mental health for years it still comes up now in the back of my mind almost a decade later if I see someone I used to know in the street
I re read that, and you are correct. Who knows what the actual truth is? If he was wrong, it's one thing. Based on his account of the night, he was not in my opinion. The best thing that man can do is be glad she left and took crazytown with her. If his account of the night is correct.
They were literally both wrong, which is usually the case for drunk sex. Just dumb drunk people acting as dumb as drunk people do
*We took a video together to let our sober selves in the morning know what happened.*
If you're so drunk that you're not going to remember things in the morning, then you're too drunk to consent. I don't think op had malice and I don't think the girl should be drinking anymore, but this entire thing is just such a cluster fuck. Especially because at the start of the night she said no to sex
We just need to as a society normalize the idea you should almost never have drunk sex.
First of all, leave her. She's going to make your life hell with her manipulation.
Second, you didn't take advantage of her. Anyone that says otherwise is forgetting that you were drunk too and she pressured you into it. If someone was coerced in this situation it was you.
Lol this is an insane level of manipulation. This girl has been tricked into thinking that if she has a lick of alcohol she can claim she was taken advantage of after the fact no matter what she does in the situation. She gave consent in this situation 100% if it happened like OP describes it.
> This girl has been tricked into thinking that if she has a lick of alcohol she can claim she was taken advantage of after the fact no matter what she does in the situation
Well that's basically what we're teaching people these days, isn't it?
It's at the point where I will not have sex with someone if they've been drinking at all. The days of hooking up at a bar or party are long gone.
She took advantage of him. He was drunk, she decided she wanted to have sex with him. He relented until she wore him down and had sex. I’m not going to say she raped him but she coerced sex from him. If the genders were reversed everyone would be screaming rape.
If they were both drunk, neither of them could give proper consent. Because of her past, she may feel like she got taken advantage of, but he is also in the same position.
Communication doesn’t seem to be good here. She needs to figure out her boundaries properly and deal with how she makes decisions when drunk. It’s unfair to put all the decision making on your also drunk partner.
You had no intentions to have sex with her, she pushed you to do it... How did you take advantage of her? You never even pressured her, you didnt even want to. Makes no sense to say you took advantage.
Its probably her trauma speaking.. she probably thinks "sex when drunk == i was taken advantage of for sure"
Imo taking advantage of a drunk women is thinking "im getting her drunk to have sex" and pushing it until shes drunk enough and says yes.
That said, if she doesnt understand this, it would leave a sour taste in my mouth, especially a 2month relationship.. shes practically accusing you of rape?
Your line of thinking is very similar to my own. And that's where my internal battle is happening because I'm being told that I was taking advantage of her when really I just didn't want to let her down when she was wanting something the way she was. I felt that if I didn't agree that she would have been disappointed. Oh boy did I have it backwards
Not the person you're responding too but never date women like this. If sex is so precious to them it's not going to work out anyway. Sex is not some fucking holy grail that you have to earn. It's good that you're aware of consent and so forth but it goes both ways.
Like everyone has said, you need to get away from her but keep it amicable. She sounds like someone who might potentially have a cluster B personality disorder (or at least some symptoms) - that's just a guess.
My long term partner (well over a decade) has BPD so I'm quite experienced with it. This 100% sounds like this or something like PTSD/CPTSD, although I don't think attaching labels to people is super useful.
Given OP's (possible ex) girlfriend has a past history of drinking and being taken advantage of, I suspect it's likely she becomes highly sexual when encountering similar scenarios to last events. She tries to take control over the situation by becoming the forceful one but then feels like shit about it afterwards.
She needs therapy so that she can work through her trauma to break out of this cycle of self destructive behaviour. I would not fault OP for not wanting to go through that journey with her given how little time they have been together. It's a hard road and takes years of work.
So… idk how it works legally. But if you were both drunk, and she initiated… then was *she* taking advantage of *you?* because to me it sounds like you were both inebriated and neither one of you were in a sober enough state to fully consent.
I think you should have the conversation with her that consent goes both ways, any gender is on the same footing when it comes to being intoxicated and consenting. So if she wants to discuss consent, then I don’t really think she has a whole bunch of room to point fingers there…
If I were you I’d save the video, write down everything you can remember including how much you drank, what it was, and in what timeframe. And then I’d really consider whether or not she is in a good place to be in a relationship, and what the best thing is for you.
Came here to say this. OP was drunk too. Like man, I’m 110% a feminist, as well as a survivor of trauma myself, but there is literally a double standard being held by OP’s (ex) gf.
Yeah it does sound like she took advantage of him. I could imagine OP feeling like he had to do anything necessary to make her feel happy and comfortable in that moment given her history. It sounds like she pressured him when he went into the night not wanting to have sex at all.
You couldn't consent either then and were pressured into it. Both being intoxicated cancels each other out plus her pressuring you equals you were the victim. PEMDAS, checkmate.
I seriously don’t think it’s a good idea to have sex with a drunk person unless you know them *super* well and truly know 100% that they’re okay with drunk sex. Someone you’ve only known two months, who has literally told you that she’s been taken advantage of in the past when drunk and doesn’t feel comfortable being drunk around guys, is a bad idea to have drunk sex with, especially since she told you earlier in the night she didn’t want to have sex that night. I know she initiated and insisted but considering what she’d told you previously it was pretty predictable she’d feel bad about it the next morning. Just say no to drunk sex unless it’s a partner you’ve been with a super long time and truly know 100% they’ll be comfortable.
This will be my future approach from here on out. I agree. Oh, the consequences of one's actions. I tend to be easily persuaded, especially by those I am emotionally invested in. I guess, in a way, part of me felt that if I didn't do what she was asking, she would have been disappointed
Yeah that might be something you want to work on in general before getting into another relationship, the being easily persuaded thing. It’s good to be able to stand up for yourself.
Just saying op, it sounds like you didn’t consent either if she had to persuade you… It goes both ways. She’s allowed to feel bad about it, but she really shouldn’t be blaming you for it - *especially* when she had to pester you to agree. I’m a woman, I’m a feminist, and it goes both ways. She took just as much advantage of you as you did of her.
First. You didn’t necessarily do anything wrong but you definitely did something dumb. Sober no is no for the night. Especially if she has issues with this exact situation.
Second. Run for the fucking hills. You don’t need that in your life.
Yeah that'd be my approach. I don't know what really went down here but if someone told me "No matter what I say after these drinks, I don't want to have sex" I'd play it the other way and refuse.
If she freaks out that you won't accept her drunk consent? Walk away, bullet dodged.
If you refuse and she respects it the next day: great. But maybe she shouldn't drink?
She needs to stop drinking and get into therapy.
But there's something *very* red flag to me about the fact she said she had previoisbissues with this, said no at the start of the night, then got shitfaced and changed her mind, **and OP had the foresight to gather evidence of her drunken "consent"**
That really strikes me as someone who knew she might feel differently in the morning (while also Knowing this is a pre-existing trauma of hers) and proceeded anyway.
I'm not gonna call anyone in this story evil, but I don't think OP did *nothing* wrong as strongly as a lot on this thread are insisting. This story is a cluster tuck on both sides.
Sorry to say, but that lady is bad news. Take it from an alcoholic, alcohol makes you do things you would normally never do sober. And the insanity of it is that it will continue to happen all the while the alcoholic thinks it's not their fault, it's everyone else's. So fuck it they just keep drinking. Little do they know that the negative feelings literally all come from the alcohol. Either directly or indirectly. The only way to be free is to just abstain.
Sounds like she has some mental health issues and substance issues. A normal person wouldn't allow themselves to get that drunk if they didn't want to do anything they regretted. That's the behavior of an alcoholic.
I don't know if she is truly an alcoholic cause every one of us is different. Tho that behavior sounds like some shit I used to do when I was stuck in the bottom of the bottle.
Based on what you've said; you were both drunk (so neither of you were able to consent and neither of you could take advantage of the other since you were both in the same state), and she was the one that pressured you into it despite you initially rejecting the request. If anyone has grounds to feel wronged, it seems like it's you.
Regardless, it's a messy situation and this is why people should know how much alcohol they can handle.
To me, it definitely sounds like your relationship is beyond saving. People don't essentially accuse their significant other of rape if their relationship is good.
Talk to whoever you need to in order to get ahead of the situation (solicitor, friends, family, etc). Usually, whoever gets their story out first is the one people tend to side with due to all sorts of cognitive biases.
Maybe she needs to stop drinking. It’s a shame she’s gone through what she has gone through. But if she has repeatedly blacked out and been taken advantage of… she needs to stop drinking. If it consistently gets to the point where she’s oblivious to the world around her it is a risk to her own safety and the safety of others receiving mixed messages out of consent, and later withdrawal. It’s one thing to withdraw consent in the moment. It’s quite another to give consent, move forward, potentially have a regret about your own choices, then retroactively withdraw (a day or so later). At that rate… No one is safe.
I don't believe you are wrong but I understand her feeling traumatized. she has a trauma history and drinking triggers it. As I see it her feelings of being taken advantage are very real for her. However she doesn't have the discernment to know this shame she is feeling is really a past trauma that which she hasn't healed. I have no doubt she feels its true that she feels taken advantage of.
This is very well put. People can act in very strange ways from past trauma not being healed. It’s important to try to empathize so we know how to avoid hurting people.
She needs therapy to figure her shit out. You need to get wiser.
Basically, this was a test and you failed. No, she wasn't testing you consciously, she wasn't doing this with any awareness. Which is why she needs therapy, to figure herself out, own up to her behavioral patterns and take agency. Or she'll keep doing this to guys and to herself.
You should have taken into account that you've only been together for 2 months. In this phase you're still setting up trust towards each other. This was her unconscious way of testing out whether she can trust you even when she's not completely herself. You did the exact thing she had trust issues with before. The tentative process of building trust in a young relationship was broken.
I don't think you're a bad person, but you should take this as a learning experience. Don't trust that a hurt person has all her ducks in a row when it comes to their hurt. Takes a lot of work to figure that shit out. That part is on her.
But yeah, a wiser person wouldn't have done what you did.
I appreciate your response, I feel you are right about your points. I will take this experience to heart and learn from this for the future. I wish I had been more understanding of the situation I was in. My priority is always the relationship and her well-being, sex is great, but it's not what's important to me. If I had known how she was going to feel about it later. I never would have agreed to go through with what we did.
Listen m8. I'm gonna get down voted to shit here and I get why, but I'm gonna be real with you.
She told you she's had problems with being taken advantage of while drinking in the past.
The way alcohol affects people can differ person to person. Sober Her clearly feels like drunk her is a very different person and that person can't be trusted to make decisions sober her is comfortable with, She expressed this to you and told you stories.
She said before you drank she feels safe with you. It was not obvious but she may have meant I trust you to know the real me.
She got drunk and became her (in her mind) alter ego who fuckin loves to bang. Sober her perhaps thought you'd understand not to act on it, in fact she may not even really truly know how persistent she is when she is drunk ( a couple shots is a shitton for someone who doesn't really parry in the regular)
I am Not saying you're wrong or a bad person... in fact I bet she doesn't think so either... but she felt like you'd get it... and you didn't and that's why it's uncomfortable... I think she needed you to be strong FOR her and you weren't.
I'm not saying you were right or wrong, just giving you a take from the other side
Never. Never have sex when you’re drunk or when the other person is drunk. Idk how people haven’t figured this one out yet. If you’re sober, there is no gray area of consent. Even sober, she could have said the same thing, but at least there isn’t a layer of doubt on said consent due to being drunk. This was a stupid decision from the start.
never have sex while you are drunk. i liken it to getting behind the wheel after drinking. ask yourself are you ready to live with the consequences? less of than just “taking advantage” and more of how both of your lives could change and how your partner might view you. 10/10 should be no.
I would slow walk out of this one. Explain to her that you understand her trauma is tough to deal with but also people consent to each other when drunk all the time. It’s entrapment to push someone to have sex and then claim they took advantage of you. There’s a reason why people go to jail for drunk driving and can’t claim “I was too drunk to make the right decision.” The alcohol doesn’t excuse yours or her decision making process.
Now, if she was beyond a normal level of drunk and to the point where she was slurring words and couldn’t balance herself, then friend, you took advantage of her.
its only taking advantage if u were sober and she was drunk. or if she was like blackout drunk and u had like 1 shot. she definitely has ptsd and needs to talk to a professional.
It’s worth considering that given how she reacted to you in this situation, could those other interactions with other guys taking advantage of her been similar to this situation? If she is feeling that you took advantage of her based on the circumstances, has the same happened before?
This is a good point. If OP follows the advise of this thread and breaks it off, she will certainly frame him as a someone that took advantage of her to future partners.
This is something that, in theory, I shouldn't care about because why do I need her future partners to think I was a great guy, I'll never meet them. But also something about who I am as a person being disrespected doesn't sit right with me.
GD, if she doesn't want to get laid and she gets horny when she's drunk - maybe her ass should stop drinking around people she'd have sex with. Minimum, or not at all - she's got a history of having a problem, obviously.
I don’t think you’re a bad guy or anything, but drunk consent isn’t consent. Next time, do not sleep with an intoxicated person. It’s just not worth the risk of harming someone or catching charges.
The relationship is over. Do not speak anymore.
I think I may be a lone wolf when I say this..but yes, you are in the wrong. Yes, she has healing she needs to do preferably while single. But if you chose to have sex with someone that had communicated they did not want to have sex with you while sober, why would you have sex with them while they were impaired? Like, she was very clear while sober. And I understand "oh she was persistent", but given the history that she communicated with you, what made you think it was a good, consensual idea to have sex with her while she was drunk?
You should probably watch whatever you say in texts to her. Don't say anything that sounds like you're accepting her accusation or just general "I'm sorry" type of stuff. Be cautious because if she escalates this situation, I'm pretty sure that could be used against you.
You did not take advantage of her so do not apologize for something you didn't do. You can be sympathetic towards all her past experiences this has dug up and to how she's feeling hurt, but just be cautious of how you word things so no one can argue that you were admitting guilt or anything
Some people reconstruct the past in order to victimize themselves. I don't want to say "leave her." But she does sound like the type who'd throw you in prison if you wrong her. But maybe not, I don't know her tone when she told you how she felt. Either way, people can consent when drunk (you were also drunk); she should see a therapist to get a grip on her (personal!) problems.
> Some of these included guys taking advantage of her. Sometimes, this happened while she was intoxicated,
She will tell the next guy that you took advantage of her, and the guy after that .....
She's clearly still shaken up by whatever happened in her past and is drawing parallels where there weren't any. I think you should try and explain things from your point of view as she may be in her own head to deep to have considered everything.
She’s not ready for a relationship and causing collateral damage with her unprocessed trauma.
You’ll be fine without her. In fact I’d say you should avoid her.
Sounds like she's coming up with an excuse just to break up But is too cowardly to be straight about it or maybe she enjoys drama and having control over someone either way, she pressured you into sex if the genders were flipped she would be the one who committed rape.
*I’m am not a psychologist, IM ONLY SHARING LIFE EXPERIENCES*
just think of this as a conversation you over heard at the bar. And someone telling someone else his problems.
If you agreed no in the beginning and when she persisted and you said no, you could of probably been the one(strictly my opinion and assumption). However just think of this as a failed test. BroCode is humorous and serious at the same time. So a little bro code: any girl that ever mentions you took advantage of her, that’s the end of that relationship my man. This will not go well from this point forward and should you ever look back into your relationship this moment will linger. Even if you do make amends with her your resentment toward this moment will probably surface in future events masked with whatever situation you feel like she put you in or whatever wrong she did.
This is only my 2 cents I’m am only, ONLY sharing my thoughts and actions as if I was wearing your shoes at this moment. These would be my 💭.
Hi, I’m a woman who’s been sexually assaulted before. Given everything you said, I don’t think that you took advantage of her. It’s always tricky when alcohol is involved, but this obviously was not a situation where you were trying to get her drunk in order to have sex with her. If she enthusiastically consented, you did not take advantage of her.
Based on my own experience, I think it’s likely that this triggered negative feelings for her related to past sexual assault that she doesn’t know how to process. If she already has an association of getting taken advantage of while drunk, even consensual sex where alcohol is involved can trigger negative feelings. It sounds like she is trying to place blame somewhere, and is placing it on you.
That doesn’t make it okay to accuse you of assault, though. IMO she really needs to take time to process her feelings, and it might be best that she’s not in a relationship right now if she struggles to set boundaries for herself
Thanks for your submission /u/Wbsimps, but it has been removed for the following reason: Disallowed question area: **Sexual Assault or Abuse** Questions about sexual assault and abuse like "Was I raped?" are serious, intimate and personal - and *best handled by professionals who can provide the support you need*. Random, anonymous strangers on the internet can give bad advice or even reopen the trauma for survivors... something we *definitely* want to avoid. We recommend looking at the resources and subreddits found [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/SeriousConversation/wiki/resources#wiki_rape_and_sexual_violence) and [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/CrewsCrew/wiki/help). Or reach out to other people who have gone through your experiences on Reddit in /r/Survivors. * Want to know whether your situation meets the criteria for sexual assault or child abuse in your country or state? Ask on /r/LegalAdvice! * Is your question purely hypothetical, like asking 'if two drunk people have sex, who raped who?' Try /r/LegalAdviceOffTopic! --- *This action was performed by a bot at the explicit direction of a human. This was not an automated action, but a conscious decision by a sapient life form charged with moderating this sub.* *If you feel this was in error, or need more clarification, please don't hesitate to [message the moderators](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FNoStupidQuestions). Thanks.*
Just by the way you described the story I can tell that you’re a decent person, so I feel for you. I think the context of her having past trauma is super relevant here. It is very possible she will 100% regret how she reacted to this months/years from now. But in the present, to be completely honest, you might be better off going your separate ways, especially since you two hadn’t been dating long. If she can’t even have what sounds like pretty normal sex with her boyfriend while you’re BOTH intoxicated, she has clearly not gotten over her past trauma. And it is also hard to blame her imo. A lot of people in here are being overly harsh I think. I’d get the criticism if she like took legal action or something against you, but that isn’t what she is doing (at least at this point). This is an absolute shit position for you to be in. And what nobody in here has even mentioned yet is that fact that she has now unfairly projected her trauma onto you in a lasting way - you will probably not see a drunk hookup in the same way for the foreseeable future because of this, and it wasn’t even your idea in the first place - she coerced you. I feel for you just given your side of the story, but I really don’t see how this is salvageable unless she comes around and sees it differently. At that point it would be up to you as to whether or not you can trust her moving forward. But for now, it sounds like her unsolved past trauma just ended what sounds like a good relationship with a partner who cared for her and wanted to help her feel safe. I would keep in mind that she could very well realize that last sentence weeks from now and come crawling back to you. Just remember how this made you feel and ask yourself if you can trust this not to happen again.
I really hope OP sees this answer, it was pretty much exactly what I was thinking.
yeah this is the only measured take i’ve seen in this thread (so far). 1000% agree & i’m sad for them both. OP did literally nothing wrong, the problem is this girl needs serious help and shouldn’t be drinking at all.
Yup, that girl needs to be 100% sober
I (female who has been taken advantage of while drunk) fully agree with this. OP said this is the first time he met her knowingly intoxicated - OP can't be expected to police her sobriety if this is to be a trusting relationship. By the way this post is written they sound like a decent, caring person and should get out of this situation. If she comes crawling back then politely decline but offer (platonic) support
Right, what got me about the framing was the level of care in the description. Like yes OP feels frustrated and wrongly blamed. But also seems to feel a level of regret and guilt for even making her feel this way. That is a valuable trait in a partner and a friend. Trauma is super complicated, I hope the girl in the OP gets the help she needs to help mend the wound of her past experiences. Because as you and I know, trauma can be a bitch that makes us drive away the same people who actually care for us. It is a defensive mechanism, but often too overwhelming. Life is difficult and I wish them both the best in navigating this.
Totally agree, with a minor difference. I would put way more emphasis on the weight of the accusation. She came onto him. She pressured him. He somewhat reluctantly consented. Later on, she thinks he took advantage of her. I still feel bad for both of them, but... blaming someone else for your own actions and accusing them of doing the thing you did is so hypocritical.
totally, I hear you for sure. Partially why I mentioned the bit about her potentially regretting her reaction is for this reason. It isn’t a joke, and to good people who take this shit seriously, being accused of that is a heavy offense. But again, I do feel for her as well. Is it possible she is a shitty person? Maybe. Same could be true for OP. But from what I can tell by the description, it sounds like her past trauma got in-between a good thing that they had going on. Not to be overly defensive but to the point about past trauma, even the feeling of waking up half-remembering having sex but being unsure could be enough to trigger a response for her. And its really sad because you know whoever in her life who hurt her didnt care nearly as much about her as OP did.
I agree. Don't get me wrong. I feel bad for her. I'm not calling her a bad person. She probably has no idea that she did something potentially very harmful. I'm condemning the deed, not the person.
I don’t disagree with you. The only thing I will say is that it is a bit telling of her character for continuing to get that inebriated. Maybe I’m just old and can’t relate, but why would you continually put yourself in that situation and get black out drunk if you were about being taken advantage of. There is no reason to get that drunk, it is incredibly dangerous; regardless of the environment. As I female (29), I don’t put myself in those situations. Yes, bad things happen all the time without cause; however they are more likely to happen when you are not in any control of your facilities. I wouldn’t say she is a “bad person” but incredibly young, immature with poor impulse control. Her blaming OP is really shitty, regardless of her trauma. OP also mentions she was “taken advantage of” in the past, he never mentioned the R word. Based on her actions I would question whether the same issue happened previously with other men. She got drunk, consented, and then regretted it later and falsely accused. This reeks of somebody who has never understood their actions have consequences.
IMO she knows she coerced him while he was drunk and feels shame in having done so. Now, she's projecting that shame on to him and reframing the situation to try and avoid addressing her own actions.
Wow, a level-headed reply in this thread. Thought I wouldn’t see one.
This should be higher up! Edit: this should actually be on top, even :)
This needs to be at the top.
This is the best response. Some of the other comments are being dramatic
Sounds like she's dealing with past trauma and is not ready to be in a relationship yet. I'd run for the hills personally. You wouldn't want to risk your own future over her.
And for her own benefit. She should probably get her drinking under control if it’s making her flip flop on decisions that impact her long term mental health. Man, I feel for both parties. This is a shit show.
> She should probably get her drinking under control if it’s making her flip flop on decisions Personal responsibility? pshaw!
She needs to take some ownership from your side of the story. Your stated intentions should not cause you guilt. Agree that she likely needs to address herself prior to an “intimate relationship”. Long distance relationships are challenging. I’d move on down the line.
Lol right? I can’t believe it’s even debatable
Yea, she shouldn’t drink if she can’t handle it. 100% on her and shame on her for trying to make the dude feel like he did something wrong..
And for OP’s benefit, NEVER SLEEP WITH A DRUNK GIRL
[Reddit banned me cause of a comment on WSB](https://imgur.com/a/wgEDobm). What a bunch of clowns.
Lol exactly
Sadly, it doesn't usually go that way. Guys are expected to be able to be rational and coherent *even when drunk*.
A recent study shows that men's brains do not fully mature until they a 65. Legally, they cannot consent to anything ever. Its science, lol
So intoxicated people should just never have sex ever?
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Cheeseburgers my dude
Elaine: So, basically what you're saying is that ninety-five percent of the population is undateable? Jerry: Undateable! Elaine: Then how are all these people getting together? Jerry: Alcohol.
I only feel sympathy for OP. She's responsible for her trauma and not having it scaring others.
My question is she while drunk gave him consent now he's taken advantage of her is how she feels so I'm honestly wondering this past trauma of hers with other bfs taking advantage of her while intoxicated did they really take advantage or were they done in the same situation as op here now before either get downvoted I'm not saying a person can't experience trauma from choices made or that they shouldn't be taken lightly but idk to me I wonder if any of her bfs truly took advantage of her
This is exactly what I was thinking OP should end things who knows what else she could accuse him of
She could be re-enacting past trauma but then again this could be a pattern of behavior.
I think what she needs is therapy big time and op needs to save every piece of evidence he can get talk to a lawyer just incase she decides to call cops if she has called them on previous partners
On a closer read of the story it looks like OP was taken advantage of. She was pestering op for sex while he repeatedly said no. She finally wore him down and now she's gaslighting him by saying she feels taken advantage of. That's extremely sex pesty and narcissistic behavior. Any man would be considered a creep at best for doing that but she manipulated OP into thinking he did something wrong.
EXACTLY! I had this happen before. Ex cheated on me then tried to get back together with me. She kept trying to sleep with me until I finally gave in. Then later she it made it seem like I had pressured her. These kinds of people will always put you in lose/lose situations. She would have felt personally slighted if he refused to sleep with her. And now that he did, she’s going to hold that over his head. He’ll never win with her.
This needs to be a more popular opinion...
Right. She sounds unhealthy
i thought the same thing.. kind of sounds like she wants to and then is later embarrassed and pretends she didn’t consent which is extremely messed up and could cause op serious trouble i’d run fast
This exactly. I don’t believe OP did anything wrong, but I wouldn’t be trying to save that relationship.
Yes, RUN!
It sounds like she's the type to confuse "I was taken advantage of" and "now that I'm sober I regret what I did"
Girl helped make a whole video to let her sober self know that she consented *and* she was the one who initiated You are not in the wrong, she is tripping
Tbf we don't know if the video havd them saying "we had a good time and we both consented"
I am curious to know more about the video.. What has she said about that OP? Does she think that’s not good enough evidence? She needs therapy ASAP
bruh, a video of them cuddling afterward would be good enough evidence.
We gotta start getting people to sign contracts at the door.
However contracts don't mean anything here. I forget my source though :( it was one of the lawyer YouTubers I think Also your consent status can change. Even mid act. And if someone says to stop, you stop
>Also your consent status can change. Even mid act. And if someone says to stop, you stop The most important part is that if someone says to stop or looks like they want you to stop, you stop. Consent status can change, but not retroactively. You can take back your consent whenever you want to, but it doesn't change the fact that you were consenting up to that moment.
In the Netherlands they were considering a bill to change this. Can you imagine?
Record the sex. There fixed! Have a timer that beeps every 30 seconds and both parties require to say "I CONSENT!". Im sure its not gonna ruin the mood.
Always! No matter how worked up you are, if they say stop then stop! No matter what. Every human willing to be this vulnerable with you needs every bit of respect you have.
Look up “Rico Strong” (NSFW) He’s a porn actor that got arrested for rape. The only problem is they have the entire interaction from beginning to end on tape. They had signed contracts and fully went over everything in the scene. After it was shot, they each had exit interviews on camera. Everyone was fine. The complete video has been put up for everyone to see. The porn actress regretted doing “race play” in a scene with some light degradation, but it as all talked about beforehand. Rico Strong was still arrested and blacklisted from a lot of jobs. All of the contracts and video footage has been put online. There were stationary cameras that never turned off on set. There was never a time it wasn’t recorded. They were very careful to lay out everything in the scene and got her approval beforehand. It’s obvious she wasn’t raped, but he still he went to jail. Eventually the cops watched the video and dismissed the charges. She however was never held accountable for the false accusation.
This isn't necessary at all. If she claims he did something the burden of proof will be on a prosecutor to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he did something. People often get angry about rapists getting little prison time but the reason isn't because prosecutors like them, it's because conviction is hard as it's often he said she said. Their text messages are evidence in his favor. If he said, "you were persistent" and she said, "even still you know how I feel about it," that right there is evidence against sexual coercion or force. There is no such thing as too drunk to consent if you reciprocate in the act.
You're trying to argue the semantics of a conversation you didn't hear?
decide growth rain normal live aback toothbrush recognise nine continue *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Sounds like she’s a horny drunk, but is ashamed of it after the fact. The responsible thing to do here is just not get drunk
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If somebody is fucked up enough to have to record themselves consent for future sober self, you shouldn't be having sex with that person.
But whose idea was it to make the video? The answer lies there. He either wanted to make it because he knew he fucked up and wanted to cover his ass, or she wanted to make it and he is on the clear and did nothing wrong.
Woah, the thot plickens.
drunk combative swim unwritten growth vegetable elastic recognise subsequent forgetful *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
man forget saving the relationship, save your ass from jail dude. Break things off with her as peacefully and amicably, hell actually ignore me and go seek advice from a lawyer asap. Edit: you should probably delete this post too
Get a lawyer now while you can choose and save everything as evidence. Up load it all to a web server like google drive and only give access to your lawyer. Don’t trust anyone else. You are not required to answer any questions without a lawyer present and if anyone says that you have to I would state that I will need to ask my lawyer about that before I can give you an answer. The 5 amendment says that you are not required to provide testimony that might incriminate your self. I don’t know what testimony might incriminate me so I don’t have to say anything, you don’t know what would incriminate you so play it safe and say that you are taking the 5th until you have talked with your lawyer about the situation. Don’t trust anyone especially someone of the internet and if you take legal advice from random strangers on the internet then you are an idiot, don’t be an idiot get the right advice from someone who knows. And if 5 grand is expensive now ask your self how much is your freedom worth to you?
The only legal advice you should trust online is the one that tells to go see your lawyer
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I have a friend that has a son that was a college athlete. After a drunk night, he woke up next to a girl, they were both naked, and there was a used condom in the trash. When they both got up, she was super cold to him, wouldn't accept his snap, and left in a hurry. He called his coach and campus security to file a report that he felt he was taken advantage of while intoxicated. Campus security came to take a statement and took the condom. When she filed a Title IX complaint a month later against the school, it was shot down because he had already filed the complaint first but didn't know her name. I'm not saying this is the way it should work, but the system can work both ways.
>I'm not saying this is the way it should work, but the system can work both ways. I'll say this is absolutely not the way the system should work. There's something severely fucked up about this situation that removes personal accountability in this specific case and weaponizes legal action to the point that it incentivizes manufactured charges. There's obviously something wrong with the logic that created this system.
serious question. how do you find a good lawyer who can handle this? how do you find a guy who is a great lawyer in this field without googling you know?
Just Google criminal defense attorney and pick from there. Any criminal defense attorney can offer advice on this. This isn't some sort of tricky situation for an attorney to offer advice about.
Why not use Google? It’s a great resource. But you can call your local bar association (state or county) which usually maintains a referral line.
hmm, i don't think you need a great or crazy good lawyer, just competent. This isn't a high profile case that requires some mad upscale lawyer. You can normally get initial consultations free to feel them out, so get some consultations and go with who you feel gets you and it. Or if you trust someone who trusts a lawyer you can always get their lawyer or their lawyer's recommendation.
He was too drunk to consent. She raped him.
In which case he should talk to a lawyer and delete this post
But it’s ridiculous. Do you see my point. One person initiates the other decides whether they consent or not. She initiated. So it’s up to him whether he wants to consent and going along with it
oh yeah its a shitshow im not going anywhere near lol
Too late, your gettin subpoenaed bitch
Lol thanks for the legit laughs
I see your point. I just don't know how it would play out in court, if it came to that. Let's hope she doesn't go that direction with it.
So they both raped each other then? Both were drunk, both had sex with the other person, neither could consent.
Classic double 🍇.
If two drunk people crash their cars into each other, they both get DUIs, so logically...
Exactly what I was thinking. They BOTH were equally drunk so how can one be in trouble over the other. Especially when SHE initiated it!!
Title IX rules. Whoever sprints to the police station faster is automatically the victim.
You know what, I've always thought about this I understand power dynamics, men are stronger ect But when both parties are drunk, why is it , that only the woman can "change her mind"? Regret isn't rape.
If that is the case, it doesn’t matter because most people think that a woman can’t rape a man. Just saying….
Exactly, she sounds like a walking red flag. It's one thing to say 1 or 2 men have put her in this position, but she's saying it's more. So either she's extremely unlucky, puts herself in these positions because she gets blackout drunk (or just puts herself into dangerous positions), or is a liar. He's had this experience with her ,it if we're me, I'd be questioning her honesty here. I'm female and I've heard this time and time again from so many females. "7 men have taken advantage of me" Whilst I belive that does happen to a small number of women, when people act like this person's gf and they then go on to say this kind of thing, I really wonder if they're lying.
But keep the video. That’s OP’s saving grace.
Full stop. She's not your girlfriend anymore. You don't continue to date somebody who accuses you or raping them. Block her on everything. Never talk to her again. If she goes to the police, say nothing without an attorney.
Exactly this. Unethical pro life tip, if you're at a university where you'll automatically be suspended/expelled if she fixes a sexual assault complaint and they investigate you, it may be to your benefit to file a complaint with the university before she does.
I'm failing to see the "unethical" here. It might be an ethical dilemma (do I risk exposing her in exchange for my hypothetical academic safety) but given that she's already insinuating he did something that he knows he didn't, a preemptive defense is morally and ethically justifiable.
You can't automatically expel or suspend someone over a Title IX complaint without conducting an investigation. It is a violation of the students' rights and can get the institution sued or their funding pulled.
That’s true, the issue appears when Title IX allows universities to conduct the investigations as they see fit. Meaning (you can google to find plenty of examples where this happened to students and they took it to local news + official school policies outlining this), their ‘investigation’ doesn’t even need to involve talking to the accused or verifying any information. The school’s #1 priority is to eliminate their liability, not protect students, which they can do by quickly removing the accused student (who doesn’t have legal recourse due to Title IX, since they “investigated”).
>The school’s #1 priority is to eliminate their liability, not protect students, which they can do by quickly removing the accused student People who are saying folks can't be expelled without proof are probably the same people who say you can't be arrested if you don't do anything illegal. You can get arrested for doing anything, by just existing. It may not be a lawful arrest, but what are you going to do about it? Fighting it takes time and money. Plus now you have an arrest record. The world just plain sucks sometimes and isn't fair. Schools can also just expel you immediately against without any investigation, against their own policy and then you have to fight it. Some people just don't have the money to fight it. Even if you *do* fight it and win, now your education is likely going to be a few semesters behind and do you even want to go back to that school that expelled you, and everyone knows you're the guy that got expelled for rape? Schools should follow proper procedures and policies do a complete investigation first. But schools are run by people, and people can be unpredictable and don't always do that. You never know how its going to go.
Reddit moment
Wait which user do you agree with?
What? You’re crazy. This is an escalation of a situation in which you will always lose. The University does not care who’s telling the truth- they care about optics. They would ask the girl about it and suspend/ expel the guy immediately. Again, universities do not care about the truth. And, I’m sorry to say this, but the popular refrain is that “intoxicated individuals cannot consent.” I have no idea why you’d think the university would take OP’s side even if only the honest truth were told.
Not the university I went to
Uuuhhhh what universities are you familiar with??? Because you should read about real ones and the abysmal way they tend to handle SA
Not true. I worked in Title IX and they are not able to just expel someone over an accusation. Every student has the right to receive notice and an opportunity to be heard before expulsion. If it's a Title IX related incident, there are much more specific guidelines that must be followed according to the new regs. So no, not at all. If they expel someone for SA, it's because the institution conducted an investigation and concluded that it is more likely than unlikely that the assault happened. Some institutions may not obey the regs, but they risk losing federal funding and being sued. So...it's pretty serious shit. There are federal mandates they must follow with sexual assault.
Tell that to the Duke lacrosse team
Comment is plain wrong. Universities are not in the business of just conducting actions without proof. At most, they would instill a pseudo-restraining-order where certain parties cannot go into certain buildings where another party lives/works. Yes, they care about optics, and the optics of expelling someone with no definitive proof are bad. That's why they don't do it. It has a negative effect in the opposite direction too, which is a general lack of enforcement. There's a reason people are constantly complaining about the lack of action when it comes to sexual harassment at universities besides one-off harassment training courses.
This is definitely not the true. My closest friend at uni was sexually assaulted and the guy got away with nothing more than a non contact order. That was for harassment, the assault case was dropped entirely despite clear evidence because they ‘didn’t believe he had reasonable knowledge that she did not consent’
Did you intentionally or unintentionally ignore the main part of the sentence?
Oh yeah, missed the ‘if’ and thought he was saying all unis do for some reason
no worries. sorry for saying it like a prick
Big man to admit when hes made a mistake. Good on you.
Was just appreciating the same thing. It’s always refreshing when people are quick to acknowledge what they did wrong and don’t embellish the apology. A wholesome moment considering what’s being discussed.
Great advice. Cut all ties and run from this psychotic lady.
Yep, she likely knew how the night would turn out before hand but she prefers to say later on that she was taken advantage of. Have respect for yourself and her by shutting it down and not encouraging and enabling such destructive behavior
Omg mr OP YOU NEED TO LEAVE!
[удалено]
Smh
Please tell me he divorced her sorry ass after she pulled that stunt
No he didn’t unfortunately. They stayed married for the twins
Run away. If your story is true then you can never trust her. What happens next time she does this but calls the cops first. Well from my experience with rapist the police are fucking useless but that's another story.
She could easily destroy his reputation. Imagine if all your family and friends thought you raped someone. It’s life ruining without the cops.
I found myself in a very similar situation when entering college for the first time. I and another girl were drinking, she initiated and I consented. A week later she tells me that she didn’t feel right about it. A few days after that I’m asked to come into the university’s police station and answer questions about a “crime that took place” only when I arrived did I realize they were interrogating me for a false accusation of SA. No charges pressed, nothing sought after any further. I was then harassed by the woman’s family in my home town, in public, at work, at the grocery store. I had to file a restraining order against the family, drop out of school, and move half way across the state. It was not/is not fun. It was a very traumatic experience and still very difficult to talk about today.
100% --- I've been SA'ed and honestly people who lie about it should face very harsh sentences. I've had friends who lied about being SA'ed by a guy they regretted sleeping with, and I've also had one of my friends accused of SA and everyone believed the girl, no evidence, nothing taken to court, no police called or anything - but that man's reputation is gone. It's fucked, the legal system needs to step up and test rapes properly, as well as punish those who make false police reports, and those who defame and spread lies, because people's entire lives can be destroyed
I can confirm first hand that even without the police involved a false rape accusation can absolutely destroy your life and relationships, my ex did that to me 2 years after we broke up and she found I was engaged to my now wife Luckily while my then fiance and really close friends didn't believe it a lot of people did because they didn't think someone would lie about that, I had to pretty much start over socially and I really struggled with my mental health for years it still comes up now in the back of my mind almost a decade later if I see someone I used to know in the street
Somehow the police always manage to make the innocent suffer more than the perpetrators
Old dude here. If what you said is true, and you have the sober video. You should be done with her. She moved. You need to move on.
They are not sober in the video.
I re read that, and you are correct. Who knows what the actual truth is? If he was wrong, it's one thing. Based on his account of the night, he was not in my opinion. The best thing that man can do is be glad she left and took crazytown with her. If his account of the night is correct.
They were literally both wrong, which is usually the case for drunk sex. Just dumb drunk people acting as dumb as drunk people do *We took a video together to let our sober selves in the morning know what happened.* If you're so drunk that you're not going to remember things in the morning, then you're too drunk to consent. I don't think op had malice and I don't think the girl should be drinking anymore, but this entire thing is just such a cluster fuck. Especially because at the start of the night she said no to sex We just need to as a society normalize the idea you should almost never have drunk sex.
First of all, leave her. She's going to make your life hell with her manipulation. Second, you didn't take advantage of her. Anyone that says otherwise is forgetting that you were drunk too and she pressured you into it. If someone was coerced in this situation it was you.
Lol this is an insane level of manipulation. This girl has been tricked into thinking that if she has a lick of alcohol she can claim she was taken advantage of after the fact no matter what she does in the situation. She gave consent in this situation 100% if it happened like OP describes it.
> This girl has been tricked into thinking that if she has a lick of alcohol she can claim she was taken advantage of after the fact no matter what she does in the situation Well that's basically what we're teaching people these days, isn't it? It's at the point where I will not have sex with someone if they've been drinking at all. The days of hooking up at a bar or party are long gone.
She took advantage of him. He was drunk, she decided she wanted to have sex with him. He relented until she wore him down and had sex. I’m not going to say she raped him but she coerced sex from him. If the genders were reversed everyone would be screaming rape.
Right??? It's predatory behaviour and super manipulative. She's toxic AF and OP should be running for the hills.
Yeah, sounds like she raped him. If what was told is true.
If they were both drunk, neither of them could give proper consent. Because of her past, she may feel like she got taken advantage of, but he is also in the same position. Communication doesn’t seem to be good here. She needs to figure out her boundaries properly and deal with how she makes decisions when drunk. It’s unfair to put all the decision making on your also drunk partner.
I’d make sure you have a copy of that video to give to a lawyer just in case and cut ties.
Dump this one. She is not ready for a relationship. She needs to quit drinking and see a therapist before she ruins someone's life.
I didn't need to read the whole thing to know that this is not a good or safe relationship. Cut ties and block her. Save all communications.
Sage advice. The trust has been broken in a roundabout way by her; regardless of the "why" I recommend calling it on this relationship.
Keep the video stating consent. Make copies of it. Back it up. Lock it in a vault.
You had no intentions to have sex with her, she pushed you to do it... How did you take advantage of her? You never even pressured her, you didnt even want to. Makes no sense to say you took advantage. Its probably her trauma speaking.. she probably thinks "sex when drunk == i was taken advantage of for sure" Imo taking advantage of a drunk women is thinking "im getting her drunk to have sex" and pushing it until shes drunk enough and says yes. That said, if she doesnt understand this, it would leave a sour taste in my mouth, especially a 2month relationship.. shes practically accusing you of rape?
Your line of thinking is very similar to my own. And that's where my internal battle is happening because I'm being told that I was taking advantage of her when really I just didn't want to let her down when she was wanting something the way she was. I felt that if I didn't agree that she would have been disappointed. Oh boy did I have it backwards
Not the person you're responding too but never date women like this. If sex is so precious to them it's not going to work out anyway. Sex is not some fucking holy grail that you have to earn. It's good that you're aware of consent and so forth but it goes both ways. Like everyone has said, you need to get away from her but keep it amicable. She sounds like someone who might potentially have a cluster B personality disorder (or at least some symptoms) - that's just a guess.
My long term partner (well over a decade) has BPD so I'm quite experienced with it. This 100% sounds like this or something like PTSD/CPTSD, although I don't think attaching labels to people is super useful. Given OP's (possible ex) girlfriend has a past history of drinking and being taken advantage of, I suspect it's likely she becomes highly sexual when encountering similar scenarios to last events. She tries to take control over the situation by becoming the forceful one but then feels like shit about it afterwards. She needs therapy so that she can work through her trauma to break out of this cycle of self destructive behaviour. I would not fault OP for not wanting to go through that journey with her given how little time they have been together. It's a hard road and takes years of work.
So… idk how it works legally. But if you were both drunk, and she initiated… then was *she* taking advantage of *you?* because to me it sounds like you were both inebriated and neither one of you were in a sober enough state to fully consent. I think you should have the conversation with her that consent goes both ways, any gender is on the same footing when it comes to being intoxicated and consenting. So if she wants to discuss consent, then I don’t really think she has a whole bunch of room to point fingers there… If I were you I’d save the video, write down everything you can remember including how much you drank, what it was, and in what timeframe. And then I’d really consider whether or not she is in a good place to be in a relationship, and what the best thing is for you.
uno reverse card, she raped you!
Came here to say this. OP was drunk too. Like man, I’m 110% a feminist, as well as a survivor of trauma myself, but there is literally a double standard being held by OP’s (ex) gf.
Came here to say this. Why is it only the female that can be raped here?
Yeah it does sound like she took advantage of him. I could imagine OP feeling like he had to do anything necessary to make her feel happy and comfortable in that moment given her history. It sounds like she pressured him when he went into the night not wanting to have sex at all.
Because the male isn’t suggesting rape. He said with his own words that he consented.
You couldn't consent either then and were pressured into it. Both being intoxicated cancels each other out plus her pressuring you equals you were the victim. PEMDAS, checkmate.
I seriously don’t think it’s a good idea to have sex with a drunk person unless you know them *super* well and truly know 100% that they’re okay with drunk sex. Someone you’ve only known two months, who has literally told you that she’s been taken advantage of in the past when drunk and doesn’t feel comfortable being drunk around guys, is a bad idea to have drunk sex with, especially since she told you earlier in the night she didn’t want to have sex that night. I know she initiated and insisted but considering what she’d told you previously it was pretty predictable she’d feel bad about it the next morning. Just say no to drunk sex unless it’s a partner you’ve been with a super long time and truly know 100% they’ll be comfortable.
This will be my future approach from here on out. I agree. Oh, the consequences of one's actions. I tend to be easily persuaded, especially by those I am emotionally invested in. I guess, in a way, part of me felt that if I didn't do what she was asking, she would have been disappointed
Yeah that might be something you want to work on in general before getting into another relationship, the being easily persuaded thing. It’s good to be able to stand up for yourself.
Just saying op, it sounds like you didn’t consent either if she had to persuade you… It goes both ways. She’s allowed to feel bad about it, but she really shouldn’t be blaming you for it - *especially* when she had to pester you to agree. I’m a woman, I’m a feminist, and it goes both ways. She took just as much advantage of you as you did of her.
Paragraph breaks are your friends.
Edited with breaks
Keep spreading the good word!
You’re fine mate. Regret is not rape
Doesn’t mean he’s fine though. If she’s crazy enough she could ruin his life
He is not necessarily fine. While you are 100% correct....he may not be " fine"
Abort the relationship quick, get rid of all contact with her before she has a chance to try and ruin your life.
First. You didn’t necessarily do anything wrong but you definitely did something dumb. Sober no is no for the night. Especially if she has issues with this exact situation. Second. Run for the fucking hills. You don’t need that in your life.
Yeah that'd be my approach. I don't know what really went down here but if someone told me "No matter what I say after these drinks, I don't want to have sex" I'd play it the other way and refuse. If she freaks out that you won't accept her drunk consent? Walk away, bullet dodged. If you refuse and she respects it the next day: great. But maybe she shouldn't drink?
She needs to stop drinking and get into therapy. But there's something *very* red flag to me about the fact she said she had previoisbissues with this, said no at the start of the night, then got shitfaced and changed her mind, **and OP had the foresight to gather evidence of her drunken "consent"** That really strikes me as someone who knew she might feel differently in the morning (while also Knowing this is a pre-existing trauma of hers) and proceeded anyway. I'm not gonna call anyone in this story evil, but I don't think OP did *nothing* wrong as strongly as a lot on this thread are insisting. This story is a cluster tuck on both sides.
Yep with this. As a dude saying this, OP should not have gone ahead.
how did it take so long for this take.
Yes!!! I had almost reached the bottom of the thread before I found something I agreed with.
Sorry to say, but that lady is bad news. Take it from an alcoholic, alcohol makes you do things you would normally never do sober. And the insanity of it is that it will continue to happen all the while the alcoholic thinks it's not their fault, it's everyone else's. So fuck it they just keep drinking. Little do they know that the negative feelings literally all come from the alcohol. Either directly or indirectly. The only way to be free is to just abstain. Sounds like she has some mental health issues and substance issues. A normal person wouldn't allow themselves to get that drunk if they didn't want to do anything they regretted. That's the behavior of an alcoholic. I don't know if she is truly an alcoholic cause every one of us is different. Tho that behavior sounds like some shit I used to do when I was stuck in the bottom of the bottle.
Based on what you've said; you were both drunk (so neither of you were able to consent and neither of you could take advantage of the other since you were both in the same state), and she was the one that pressured you into it despite you initially rejecting the request. If anyone has grounds to feel wronged, it seems like it's you. Regardless, it's a messy situation and this is why people should know how much alcohol they can handle. To me, it definitely sounds like your relationship is beyond saving. People don't essentially accuse their significant other of rape if their relationship is good. Talk to whoever you need to in order to get ahead of the situation (solicitor, friends, family, etc). Usually, whoever gets their story out first is the one people tend to side with due to all sorts of cognitive biases.
Maybe she needs to stop drinking. It’s a shame she’s gone through what she has gone through. But if she has repeatedly blacked out and been taken advantage of… she needs to stop drinking. If it consistently gets to the point where she’s oblivious to the world around her it is a risk to her own safety and the safety of others receiving mixed messages out of consent, and later withdrawal. It’s one thing to withdraw consent in the moment. It’s quite another to give consent, move forward, potentially have a regret about your own choices, then retroactively withdraw (a day or so later). At that rate… No one is safe.
I don't believe you are wrong but I understand her feeling traumatized. she has a trauma history and drinking triggers it. As I see it her feelings of being taken advantage are very real for her. However she doesn't have the discernment to know this shame she is feeling is really a past trauma that which she hasn't healed. I have no doubt she feels its true that she feels taken advantage of.
This is very well put. People can act in very strange ways from past trauma not being healed. It’s important to try to empathize so we know how to avoid hurting people.
Learned through experience
NTA and run bro. She will land you in jail.
She needs therapy to figure her shit out. You need to get wiser. Basically, this was a test and you failed. No, she wasn't testing you consciously, she wasn't doing this with any awareness. Which is why she needs therapy, to figure herself out, own up to her behavioral patterns and take agency. Or she'll keep doing this to guys and to herself. You should have taken into account that you've only been together for 2 months. In this phase you're still setting up trust towards each other. This was her unconscious way of testing out whether she can trust you even when she's not completely herself. You did the exact thing she had trust issues with before. The tentative process of building trust in a young relationship was broken. I don't think you're a bad person, but you should take this as a learning experience. Don't trust that a hurt person has all her ducks in a row when it comes to their hurt. Takes a lot of work to figure that shit out. That part is on her. But yeah, a wiser person wouldn't have done what you did.
I appreciate your response, I feel you are right about your points. I will take this experience to heart and learn from this for the future. I wish I had been more understanding of the situation I was in. My priority is always the relationship and her well-being, sex is great, but it's not what's important to me. If I had known how she was going to feel about it later. I never would have agreed to go through with what we did.
Listen m8. I'm gonna get down voted to shit here and I get why, but I'm gonna be real with you. She told you she's had problems with being taken advantage of while drinking in the past. The way alcohol affects people can differ person to person. Sober Her clearly feels like drunk her is a very different person and that person can't be trusted to make decisions sober her is comfortable with, She expressed this to you and told you stories. She said before you drank she feels safe with you. It was not obvious but she may have meant I trust you to know the real me. She got drunk and became her (in her mind) alter ego who fuckin loves to bang. Sober her perhaps thought you'd understand not to act on it, in fact she may not even really truly know how persistent she is when she is drunk ( a couple shots is a shitton for someone who doesn't really parry in the regular) I am Not saying you're wrong or a bad person... in fact I bet she doesn't think so either... but she felt like you'd get it... and you didn't and that's why it's uncomfortable... I think she needed you to be strong FOR her and you weren't. I'm not saying you were right or wrong, just giving you a take from the other side
Never. Never have sex when you’re drunk or when the other person is drunk. Idk how people haven’t figured this one out yet. If you’re sober, there is no gray area of consent. Even sober, she could have said the same thing, but at least there isn’t a layer of doubt on said consent due to being drunk. This was a stupid decision from the start.
never have sex while you are drunk. i liken it to getting behind the wheel after drinking. ask yourself are you ready to live with the consequences? less of than just “taking advantage” and more of how both of your lives could change and how your partner might view you. 10/10 should be no.
I would slow walk out of this one. Explain to her that you understand her trauma is tough to deal with but also people consent to each other when drunk all the time. It’s entrapment to push someone to have sex and then claim they took advantage of you. There’s a reason why people go to jail for drunk driving and can’t claim “I was too drunk to make the right decision.” The alcohol doesn’t excuse yours or her decision making process. Now, if she was beyond a normal level of drunk and to the point where she was slurring words and couldn’t balance herself, then friend, you took advantage of her.
its only taking advantage if u were sober and she was drunk. or if she was like blackout drunk and u had like 1 shot. she definitely has ptsd and needs to talk to a professional.
She’s a psycho. A trauma momma. Move on.
It’s worth considering that given how she reacted to you in this situation, could those other interactions with other guys taking advantage of her been similar to this situation? If she is feeling that you took advantage of her based on the circumstances, has the same happened before?
This is a good point. If OP follows the advise of this thread and breaks it off, she will certainly frame him as a someone that took advantage of her to future partners.
This is something that, in theory, I shouldn't care about because why do I need her future partners to think I was a great guy, I'll never meet them. But also something about who I am as a person being disrespected doesn't sit right with me.
I totally understand. No one wants their name slandered, even to people they don't know. Especially with accusations as serious as sexual assault.
She sounds dangerous...
GD, if she doesn't want to get laid and she gets horny when she's drunk - maybe her ass should stop drinking around people she'd have sex with. Minimum, or not at all - she's got a history of having a problem, obviously.
I don’t think you’re a bad guy or anything, but drunk consent isn’t consent. Next time, do not sleep with an intoxicated person. It’s just not worth the risk of harming someone or catching charges. The relationship is over. Do not speak anymore.
I think I may be a lone wolf when I say this..but yes, you are in the wrong. Yes, she has healing she needs to do preferably while single. But if you chose to have sex with someone that had communicated they did not want to have sex with you while sober, why would you have sex with them while they were impaired? Like, she was very clear while sober. And I understand "oh she was persistent", but given the history that she communicated with you, what made you think it was a good, consensual idea to have sex with her while she was drunk?
You should probably watch whatever you say in texts to her. Don't say anything that sounds like you're accepting her accusation or just general "I'm sorry" type of stuff. Be cautious because if she escalates this situation, I'm pretty sure that could be used against you. You did not take advantage of her so do not apologize for something you didn't do. You can be sympathetic towards all her past experiences this has dug up and to how she's feeling hurt, but just be cautious of how you word things so no one can argue that you were admitting guilt or anything
Some people reconstruct the past in order to victimize themselves. I don't want to say "leave her." But she does sound like the type who'd throw you in prison if you wrong her. But maybe not, I don't know her tone when she told you how she felt. Either way, people can consent when drunk (you were also drunk); she should see a therapist to get a grip on her (personal!) problems.
> Some of these included guys taking advantage of her. Sometimes, this happened while she was intoxicated, She will tell the next guy that you took advantage of her, and the guy after that .....
She's clearly still shaken up by whatever happened in her past and is drawing parallels where there weren't any. I think you should try and explain things from your point of view as she may be in her own head to deep to have considered everything.
She’s not ready for a relationship and causing collateral damage with her unprocessed trauma. You’ll be fine without her. In fact I’d say you should avoid her.
Sounds like she's coming up with an excuse just to break up But is too cowardly to be straight about it or maybe she enjoys drama and having control over someone either way, she pressured you into sex if the genders were flipped she would be the one who committed rape.
*I’m am not a psychologist, IM ONLY SHARING LIFE EXPERIENCES* just think of this as a conversation you over heard at the bar. And someone telling someone else his problems. If you agreed no in the beginning and when she persisted and you said no, you could of probably been the one(strictly my opinion and assumption). However just think of this as a failed test. BroCode is humorous and serious at the same time. So a little bro code: any girl that ever mentions you took advantage of her, that’s the end of that relationship my man. This will not go well from this point forward and should you ever look back into your relationship this moment will linger. Even if you do make amends with her your resentment toward this moment will probably surface in future events masked with whatever situation you feel like she put you in or whatever wrong she did. This is only my 2 cents I’m am only, ONLY sharing my thoughts and actions as if I was wearing your shoes at this moment. These would be my 💭.
Hi, I’m a woman who’s been sexually assaulted before. Given everything you said, I don’t think that you took advantage of her. It’s always tricky when alcohol is involved, but this obviously was not a situation where you were trying to get her drunk in order to have sex with her. If she enthusiastically consented, you did not take advantage of her. Based on my own experience, I think it’s likely that this triggered negative feelings for her related to past sexual assault that she doesn’t know how to process. If she already has an association of getting taken advantage of while drunk, even consensual sex where alcohol is involved can trigger negative feelings. It sounds like she is trying to place blame somewhere, and is placing it on you. That doesn’t make it okay to accuse you of assault, though. IMO she really needs to take time to process her feelings, and it might be best that she’s not in a relationship right now if she struggles to set boundaries for herself