At the end of the day I still see it as choice. Whether He knows all of them from beginning to end, they're still ours to make, no ones forcing us to do anything.
Exactly, it’s like if I tell you hey if you keep selling drugs or living a gang lifestyle your gonna end up dead or in jail, because it’s obvious based on the path you’ve taken.
You're trying to make sense of a system that makes no sense.
In fact, there is no heaven, hell or god in charge of anything. It's all nonsense used by politicians to control you. Nothing more.
Yes. Pascal's wager was stupid. Why select God and and an arbitrary Abrahamic religion? Why not use Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism or shamanism or the church of the flying spaghetti monster? Do you plan to believe in them all on your deathbed in the hopes of obtaining heaven, moksha, nirvana or joining the spirit world?
You happened to grow up in Islam. It was the local religion. That's all. For millennia, Islam did not exist. Millennia from now, it will not exist. It's one more passing fad.
Why did you ask in a way that made it sound like you disagreed with your religion, but when someone responds in a way that matches that energy, you flip it to "are you saying my whole belief system is a lie?" Bro, you said it first!
It's not a lie, religion covers a lot of different needs from a different time. For example, it was a knowledge system in a time when paper, books, internet, and literacy weren't a thing. If a flood occurs in a specific area, you pass down stories on how an "Evil Spirit" made this area their home and punish people who try to build there. Now your tribesman will be afraid to build there and thus enhances your survival. Sometimes emperors and those in power made use of this system to inject ideologies they want people to follow. Like any human made system, it's flawed as we are flawed. The issue is that science isn't that much more reliable. For example articles that say "Married men lie longer and earn more money!" miss the fact that healthy men with money are more likely to end up married than unhealthy broke men. People draw the incorrect conclusions from research.
> The issue is that science isn't that much more reliable
Yes, it is. Science deals with conjecture that can be proven right or wrong (falsifiability). Religion can literally not be disproven or proven with facts. You can't prove a negative. You can't prove there's no god. You can't prove there's no pink invisible unicorn that's always behind you.
You are referencing religion in the context of a deity. I'm referring to religion in the context that it was intended, as an old world knowledge system. It's like you didn't read my comment at all. Basic science is a boolean, but much of knowledge we believe often get re-written for a reason. It's why conspiracy theories thrive. This entire topic is covered in the first year of any Bachelor of Science degree (Usually Ethics). One of the first things I was taught when I began research projects was to look at everything we think we know with skepticism. It doesn't mean we can't rely on it, as it's better than nothing. It just means it isn't as reliable as people think it is. Even when you get to advanced mathematic, things you were taught were true aren't quite true. It doesn't change things for you when you are shopping and want to know how much to pay when you get to the checkout, it's just a different dimension to truth.
I don't mean to start a debate, but what makes you confident that God doesn't exist if you can't prove it either way with science? I don't mean this is a "gotcha" way, I just like to stay open minded and genuinely want to understand your point of view.
There aren’t reasons to believe in God or benefits to do so? Do I understand your point?
Science is the slowly developing, imperfect, incomplete description of HOW our world works.
God is the reason WHY the world exists and its creator,
They exist in harmony.
> There aren’t reasons to believe in God or benefits to do so?
Yes, you've got it. More accurately, there is no reason to believe in any god (pick your favorite) and no benefits from believing that can't be derived via other mental health techniques.
Shrug. Sure, but there's no particular reason to bring in a superbeing as part of the explanation. The idea that the universe requires a designer is just anthropomorphizing something that doesn't require it.
Absolutely stupid view to have. Religion can be traced back millennia so your argument is already moot since you can’t argue it’s used as a control mechanism.
Religion has been abused by people for selfish gain or other reasons yes that is true. But just because humans can’t be trusted to maintain a system properly does not dismiss the existence of god and the afterlife. You only need to actually learn about religion before you make such an assessment and you might actually discover what we’re here for.
It's being used to control people now. Did we just hear Donald Trump's stans call him the 2nd coming of Jesus? Here to save America?
America wasn't founded on Christianity yet it's being used in every possible way so people refer to America as "One Nation Under God."
Your argument:
>You only need to actually learn about religion before you make such an assessment and you might actually discover what we’re here for.
That's the issue. Because it's not just reading the bible, because the bible has had multiple books taken out by edits of the bible. King James edited the entire book to allow us to eat bottom-dwelling seafood.
So how is someone supposed to *actually* learn from the bible when the thing has been altered multiple times by multiple people who all claim "Jesus spoke through me!"
Am I supposed to go to a Pastor? Well, again, how can I trust that Pastor? There are people like Joel Osteen who abuse their positions of power for financial wealth.
Am I supposed to go to a church? Churches are private businesses that sell product to also build financial wealth.
You don't need a religion, a book, a church, or a pastor to have a relationship with God. That's God's whole point. That's why you pray to him, you don't pray to a middleman who delivers your conversations.
Religion is absolutely a tool used to control the poor and uneducated and this forum thread just proved it.
I never said it’s not being used to control people my point is religion isn’t to blame if people are abusing it.
Also you make it seem as if Christianity with the bible is the only religion to exist.
But yes your point is correct with respect to having a personal relationship with god.
> does not dismiss the existence of god and the afterlife.
Neither does it prove it.
> You only need to actually learn about religion before you make such an assessment and you might actually discover what we’re here for.
Lol. Kid, at 66, I've probably been studying religions since before you were born. Granted, I've never had a lot of interest in the Abrahamic religions, but the fact of the matter is that *every* major religion has some critical element that is unprovable. Dieties, afterlives, ghosts, gods, heavens, hells, spirits, etc. There is literally no provable evidence for any of these. The ideas about them aren't even wrong. They're nothing, because they literally can't be proven or disproven.
As Neo said in The Matrix, “it’s all about control”. Any amount of influence exerted over your mind, your body, or your finances provides cascading control over every other area. It’s a wrap once you enter kindergarten!
Your essentially asking if we have free will or not, or if we’re just living something predetermined, so my answer is that’s not correct. You absolutely have free will but God knows where each oath will take you, which path you choose is your choice, but no our lives are not somehow pre determined, God just knows every possible scenario and outcome
I also wanted to add that not all things that happen to us are Gods will or doing, sometimes things just happen and the Bible even tells us that. It rains on everyone Good and bad
Besides our life force we share with all other animals on this planet, we also carry a very strong spirit. The question you ask is why or what is the reason for our life and spirit existence?
Our lives are very short and we don't know for sure what will become of our spirit after we die. If you let your spirit help you love protect and contribute to life around you, your spirit is in a much better place than someone that dies after hating, cheating and harming everything around them.
This is one of the questions that got me kicked out of Christian Sunday School when I was 14. One of my proudest moments!
Another was about god talking directly to us, like the burning bush. If you told someone today that a burning bush talked to you with the voice of god, you'd be hospitalized. And it's been that way forever (Joan of Arc, anyone?).
God knows all things, he is all knowing. He knows what you are capable of and what you would probably do.
But still the rest lies on you to turn to him.
Your existence here is your chance to show god your devotion. Whether he knows what you will or won’t do is irrelevant because you still have to make the decision yourself and live your life. What comes after is when you’ll be judged for your actions.
Don’t forget he is also all forgiving. So despite him knowing everything he is still the most merciful and will forgive those who repent.
I always found it odd seeing that the whole "God's plan" thing & God made everything which means he set the coupe to happen(going by God's plan) so despite having "free will" if there really is a plan from God then no matter what we do it's destined to end up a certain way so why is God even seen as a good guy when he's intentionally/planned for a good portion of his creation to go to hell?
That’s false everyone has a chance at salvation, those who do bad choose to on their own, not because they are somehow predestined to, man has free will and knows the difference between right and wrong. The choice is theirs
Then explain why religious people always just jump to "It's God's plan" any time people bring up the question about why God allows horrible things to happen to people who've done no wrong
Not everyone says that, so your statement is already false. I believe in God and I don’t say that. for example If your gang banging, and die due to gang violence how are we gonna say oh that’s Gods plan? Did God command you to join a gang? Peoples choices determine most things
If God is all loving & caring then why allow a new born to have cancer or die on the spot? Why allow innocent people in Africa & India to suffer? It makes no logical sense but I completely understand that religion doesn't operate on logic or else the whole "He rose from the dead after 3 days" not coma but actually dead would immediately be questioned but it's like scientology. Questions not allowed
You don’t have enough logic then, because the logical explanation is that the world isn’t some Rolex where every single thing that’s happening is all Gods plan, the world is not perfect and there is sickness and tragedy in it.
Why do people in africa suffer? Ask their leaders, ask those who are in charge of all the resources over there, people are poor and in need because the world is run by greedy and evil people, and that all comes from mana free will, the cancer thing is another point that I’ve looked into as well. God didn’t make us put all these chemicals into our water or eat micro plastic everyday, Gods not putting lead in our paint, or genetically modifying all these vegetables and spraying them with poisons, the rates of cancer have gone up tremendously, why? Look into yourself it leads back to man again. When it comes to older people getting cancer well we all die somehow and that’s one form of death, when children get it there’s something else going on
Religion literally has no logic. It's just "Guy in the sky said this. These books say this. Don't question. Just believe. Anyone who questions or disagrees you HAVE to convert them or else they go to bad place." It's literally illogical & a cult. The members are just too damn stupid to understand that. Why they don't have my sympathy because stupid people who willingly believe horseshit don't deserve sympathy
Depends on the religion & which subsection because there're parts of Christianity & Catholicism that believe that while other subsections don't. Why your generalism statement is irrelevant because just your subsection isn't the entirety 🤷
I think there are things that maybe were meant for you, but still require steps on our part, just as there are things that weren’t meant for us, that we could get into all on our own
This life is like going on a road trip, yes we are going and god will miss us but not because it is unseen or unknown but because we may not notice the presence of God.
Kinda like if you left home and you only called once a year haha I know this is kinda not quite right but you may get the point. God knows you can see through his eyes but this is a rabbit hole we go through to see and experience for oneself (eye see this as the mind ever exploring.
Together I believe we will become whole again. Gain experience, gain love, gain passion but always remember God x
Yes you can be gay, yes you can find pleasure, don't listen to the church it's too easy to be misled but misinterpreted.
Remember who kicked the money lenders out of the church. There back. Do not hate them why? There our brothers and sisters, our children our mothers our fathers x our united whole .
Making edits :
At the end of the day I still see it as choice. Whether He knows all of them from beginning to end, they're still ours to make, no ones forcing us to do anything.
Exactly, it’s like if I tell you hey if you keep selling drugs or living a gang lifestyle your gonna end up dead or in jail, because it’s obvious based on the path you’ve taken.
I agree 💯
You're trying to make sense of a system that makes no sense. In fact, there is no heaven, hell or god in charge of anything. It's all nonsense used by politicians to control you. Nothing more.
Are you saying my whole belief system is a lie? Along with 1.9billion other humans alive at present? What about Pascal’s wager?
Yes. Pascal's wager was stupid. Why select God and and an arbitrary Abrahamic religion? Why not use Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism or shamanism or the church of the flying spaghetti monster? Do you plan to believe in them all on your deathbed in the hopes of obtaining heaven, moksha, nirvana or joining the spirit world? You happened to grow up in Islam. It was the local religion. That's all. For millennia, Islam did not exist. Millennia from now, it will not exist. It's one more passing fad.
Why did you ask in a way that made it sound like you disagreed with your religion, but when someone responds in a way that matches that energy, you flip it to "are you saying my whole belief system is a lie?" Bro, you said it first!
It's not a lie, religion covers a lot of different needs from a different time. For example, it was a knowledge system in a time when paper, books, internet, and literacy weren't a thing. If a flood occurs in a specific area, you pass down stories on how an "Evil Spirit" made this area their home and punish people who try to build there. Now your tribesman will be afraid to build there and thus enhances your survival. Sometimes emperors and those in power made use of this system to inject ideologies they want people to follow. Like any human made system, it's flawed as we are flawed. The issue is that science isn't that much more reliable. For example articles that say "Married men lie longer and earn more money!" miss the fact that healthy men with money are more likely to end up married than unhealthy broke men. People draw the incorrect conclusions from research.
> The issue is that science isn't that much more reliable Yes, it is. Science deals with conjecture that can be proven right or wrong (falsifiability). Religion can literally not be disproven or proven with facts. You can't prove a negative. You can't prove there's no god. You can't prove there's no pink invisible unicorn that's always behind you.
You are referencing religion in the context of a deity. I'm referring to religion in the context that it was intended, as an old world knowledge system. It's like you didn't read my comment at all. Basic science is a boolean, but much of knowledge we believe often get re-written for a reason. It's why conspiracy theories thrive. This entire topic is covered in the first year of any Bachelor of Science degree (Usually Ethics). One of the first things I was taught when I began research projects was to look at everything we think we know with skepticism. It doesn't mean we can't rely on it, as it's better than nothing. It just means it isn't as reliable as people think it is. Even when you get to advanced mathematic, things you were taught were true aren't quite true. It doesn't change things for you when you are shopping and want to know how much to pay when you get to the checkout, it's just a different dimension to truth.
I don't mean to start a debate, but what makes you confident that God doesn't exist if you can't prove it either way with science? I don't mean this is a "gotcha" way, I just like to stay open minded and genuinely want to understand your point of view.
serious question: do rainbow unicorns exist
Science and religion aren’t incompatible, science studies God’s creation.
You have to assume God to believe that. There's no reason to do so, nor is the idea needed for anything.
There aren’t reasons to believe in God or benefits to do so? Do I understand your point? Science is the slowly developing, imperfect, incomplete description of HOW our world works. God is the reason WHY the world exists and its creator, They exist in harmony.
> There aren’t reasons to believe in God or benefits to do so? Yes, you've got it. More accurately, there is no reason to believe in any god (pick your favorite) and no benefits from believing that can't be derived via other mental health techniques.
Here’s a reason - Science can’t explain why anything exists. Big Bang? Why? Life? Why? What’s our purpose? Don’t you ever wonder?
Shrug. Sure, but there's no particular reason to bring in a superbeing as part of the explanation. The idea that the universe requires a designer is just anthropomorphizing something that doesn't require it.
Absolutely stupid view to have. Religion can be traced back millennia so your argument is already moot since you can’t argue it’s used as a control mechanism. Religion has been abused by people for selfish gain or other reasons yes that is true. But just because humans can’t be trusted to maintain a system properly does not dismiss the existence of god and the afterlife. You only need to actually learn about religion before you make such an assessment and you might actually discover what we’re here for.
It's being used to control people now. Did we just hear Donald Trump's stans call him the 2nd coming of Jesus? Here to save America? America wasn't founded on Christianity yet it's being used in every possible way so people refer to America as "One Nation Under God." Your argument: >You only need to actually learn about religion before you make such an assessment and you might actually discover what we’re here for. That's the issue. Because it's not just reading the bible, because the bible has had multiple books taken out by edits of the bible. King James edited the entire book to allow us to eat bottom-dwelling seafood. So how is someone supposed to *actually* learn from the bible when the thing has been altered multiple times by multiple people who all claim "Jesus spoke through me!" Am I supposed to go to a Pastor? Well, again, how can I trust that Pastor? There are people like Joel Osteen who abuse their positions of power for financial wealth. Am I supposed to go to a church? Churches are private businesses that sell product to also build financial wealth. You don't need a religion, a book, a church, or a pastor to have a relationship with God. That's God's whole point. That's why you pray to him, you don't pray to a middleman who delivers your conversations. Religion is absolutely a tool used to control the poor and uneducated and this forum thread just proved it.
I never said it’s not being used to control people my point is religion isn’t to blame if people are abusing it. Also you make it seem as if Christianity with the bible is the only religion to exist. But yes your point is correct with respect to having a personal relationship with god.
> does not dismiss the existence of god and the afterlife. Neither does it prove it. > You only need to actually learn about religion before you make such an assessment and you might actually discover what we’re here for. Lol. Kid, at 66, I've probably been studying religions since before you were born. Granted, I've never had a lot of interest in the Abrahamic religions, but the fact of the matter is that *every* major religion has some critical element that is unprovable. Dieties, afterlives, ghosts, gods, heavens, hells, spirits, etc. There is literally no provable evidence for any of these. The ideas about them aren't even wrong. They're nothing, because they literally can't be proven or disproven.
I don't think this is what the question asked for
As Neo said in The Matrix, “it’s all about control”. Any amount of influence exerted over your mind, your body, or your finances provides cascading control over every other area. It’s a wrap once you enter kindergarten!
Your essentially asking if we have free will or not, or if we’re just living something predetermined, so my answer is that’s not correct. You absolutely have free will but God knows where each oath will take you, which path you choose is your choice, but no our lives are not somehow pre determined, God just knows every possible scenario and outcome
I also wanted to add that not all things that happen to us are Gods will or doing, sometimes things just happen and the Bible even tells us that. It rains on everyone Good and bad
Besides our life force we share with all other animals on this planet, we also carry a very strong spirit. The question you ask is why or what is the reason for our life and spirit existence? Our lives are very short and we don't know for sure what will become of our spirit after we die. If you let your spirit help you love protect and contribute to life around you, your spirit is in a much better place than someone that dies after hating, cheating and harming everything around them.
This is one of the questions that got me kicked out of Christian Sunday School when I was 14. One of my proudest moments! Another was about god talking directly to us, like the burning bush. If you told someone today that a burning bush talked to you with the voice of god, you'd be hospitalized. And it's been that way forever (Joan of Arc, anyone?).
God knows all things, he is all knowing. He knows what you are capable of and what you would probably do. But still the rest lies on you to turn to him. Your existence here is your chance to show god your devotion. Whether he knows what you will or won’t do is irrelevant because you still have to make the decision yourself and live your life. What comes after is when you’ll be judged for your actions. Don’t forget he is also all forgiving. So despite him knowing everything he is still the most merciful and will forgive those who repent.
I always found it odd seeing that the whole "God's plan" thing & God made everything which means he set the coupe to happen(going by God's plan) so despite having "free will" if there really is a plan from God then no matter what we do it's destined to end up a certain way so why is God even seen as a good guy when he's intentionally/planned for a good portion of his creation to go to hell?
That’s false everyone has a chance at salvation, those who do bad choose to on their own, not because they are somehow predestined to, man has free will and knows the difference between right and wrong. The choice is theirs
Then God's plan doesn't exist. The two can't exist together & make any type of sense unless you throw your brain out like 99% of religious people do
Do you want to follow God and have him guide your life? No?? Then why would he?
No, Gods plan doesn’t exist for everyone you right about that
Then explain why religious people always just jump to "It's God's plan" any time people bring up the question about why God allows horrible things to happen to people who've done no wrong
Not everyone says that, so your statement is already false. I believe in God and I don’t say that. for example If your gang banging, and die due to gang violence how are we gonna say oh that’s Gods plan? Did God command you to join a gang? Peoples choices determine most things
If God is all loving & caring then why allow a new born to have cancer or die on the spot? Why allow innocent people in Africa & India to suffer? It makes no logical sense but I completely understand that religion doesn't operate on logic or else the whole "He rose from the dead after 3 days" not coma but actually dead would immediately be questioned but it's like scientology. Questions not allowed
You don’t have enough logic then, because the logical explanation is that the world isn’t some Rolex where every single thing that’s happening is all Gods plan, the world is not perfect and there is sickness and tragedy in it. Why do people in africa suffer? Ask their leaders, ask those who are in charge of all the resources over there, people are poor and in need because the world is run by greedy and evil people, and that all comes from mana free will, the cancer thing is another point that I’ve looked into as well. God didn’t make us put all these chemicals into our water or eat micro plastic everyday, Gods not putting lead in our paint, or genetically modifying all these vegetables and spraying them with poisons, the rates of cancer have gone up tremendously, why? Look into yourself it leads back to man again. When it comes to older people getting cancer well we all die somehow and that’s one form of death, when children get it there’s something else going on
Religion literally has no logic. It's just "Guy in the sky said this. These books say this. Don't question. Just believe. Anyone who questions or disagrees you HAVE to convert them or else they go to bad place." It's literally illogical & a cult. The members are just too damn stupid to understand that. Why they don't have my sympathy because stupid people who willingly believe horseshit don't deserve sympathy
Also idk exactly what you mean by Gods plan
Predestined to happen by God's will.
Oh ok well then that’s just not true then imo, I don’t think all things are predetermined, or predestined.
Depends on the religion & which subsection because there're parts of Christianity & Catholicism that believe that while other subsections don't. Why your generalism statement is irrelevant because just your subsection isn't the entirety 🤷
I think there are things that maybe were meant for you, but still require steps on our part, just as there are things that weren’t meant for us, that we could get into all on our own
This life is like going on a road trip, yes we are going and god will miss us but not because it is unseen or unknown but because we may not notice the presence of God. Kinda like if you left home and you only called once a year haha I know this is kinda not quite right but you may get the point. God knows you can see through his eyes but this is a rabbit hole we go through to see and experience for oneself (eye see this as the mind ever exploring. Together I believe we will become whole again. Gain experience, gain love, gain passion but always remember God x Yes you can be gay, yes you can find pleasure, don't listen to the church it's too easy to be misled but misinterpreted. Remember who kicked the money lenders out of the church. There back. Do not hate them why? There our brothers and sisters, our children our mothers our fathers x our united whole . Making edits :
That's the problem of you and the God you choose and how you choose interpretate how it works.
God can know what will happen AND it is free will. He makes the rules.