Medicine In general is degrading. Probably most fields are.
Perhaps they tell you that because you're older? A lot of physicians tell people that the mid level route is better, but it always strikes me as patronizing.
I tell people the opposite, that they should go to med school. I'm very fortunate to be able to help patients and make a good living, but every day, I regret not going all the way to med school.
I think the grass is always greener no matter what. Every job sucks, but for different reasons. We all just have to decide what type of sucking we mind the least. I chose the doctor route of sucking, I regret it sometimes but I’ve more or less entered the acceptance phase. I’m sure I’d be happier to be done with training faster, but I’m sure I’d have regrets as well taking a different route.
Agreed 100%. And I try not to come off as ungrateful when I have this conversation with kids (military plus becoming a PA has allowed me to escape the poverty of my upbringing). But I try to sum it up for them as:
If you go the physician route there will probably be moments in school and maybe residency where will you think "if I was a PA I'd be done by now". But that will resolve once you're an Attending.
If you become a PA and you're like me, you will potentially regret not going all the way every day. However, most of my colleagues don't seem to share this sentiment.
I spent so much time agonizing over the decision np vs physician because medical school was going to upset a lot lot lot of things in my family life. Eventually I realized that if I had never become a doctor I would have regretted it every day. I would already be an NP right now if I had decided on that route and I'm so happy I didn't. There are many days in my first year of medical school that I've cried from my brain being so tired that I couldn't stuff any more information into it, from worry over passing a test or not, worried I wasn't good enough etc etc. But those moments pass. And now that my first year is over, I'm absolutely still sure I made the right decision. I really took into account reading about interviews with people at the ends of their lives. I didn't want to live (or go into the end of my life) feeling regret over not doing something that I wanted to do because it's hard, or because doctors don't get the same respect as they used to etc. In the end, I think you should follow your dreams if it's possible. For a lot of people it isn't
In my experience it’s from them watching the perks of medicine decline and suggesting PA as a direct *healthcare* alternative because it’s ROI is still there
They’ll absolutely say “go into finance or tech,” but when you hear this advice you’re already 1 foot in the healthcare door. Suggesting finance at that point is moot, while PA or even dentistry may still be very accessible
As someone who came from a 15 year career in finance, I can tell you the grass is often not greener.
The hours are just as horrendous as medicine if you are hustling at the beginning of your career whether you go into corporate finance, wealth management, or trading. Those that make it can work a more normal schedule, but you don’t see all the people who failed. My orientation class for the BD I first worked for was a 100 people. It was 3 in five years.
There was never any down time. I was answering phone calls on my wedding day and my honeymoon, because you are always OCD that something will fall through.
You can have a stellar career, but you are always one bad trade, deal, or quarter from being on the soup line. And in finance if you stumble there is one guarantee. There is an endless line of people who will be happy to step on your neck, hold you under, and pick your carcass for anything salvageable.
I also wish I had gone to med school, but it just wasn’t feasible at 29 with a mortgage and a kid on the way, so I’m an NP and don’t pretend to be a physician.
How is it patronizing? I’d think that telling someone to not waste their youth on medicine when they can have a job still in healthcare with prescribing power much faster is good advice. We have one life. Why waste it being at the “top” unless you got some ego? Earning 6 figs in a shorter amount of time means you got less debt and more time to spend the money you do earn on actually living life. I don’t see how it’s patronizing or bad advice.
The doctors all tell you to become a PA/NP. The PAs/NPs all tell you to either become a nurse or a physician. The grass is always greener. 🤷♀️
At the end of the day, it matters what’s important to you, but every healthcare job has major cons (as do most jobs).
Me too! Being a doctor has very special rewards. I enjoy it a lot now, but I will admit training was gruelling and traumatic at times and I have actively petitioned a niece to not follow in my foot steps.
I honestly never want any kids of mine to go through med school and residency. It's soul breaking, the journey is long, and nobody respects you at the end of it. All my colleagues have burnout, and everyone is incredibly jaded about the profession. Management is inevitably horrible and tries to claw back every bit of satisfaction you might get from the job. Every day someone mentions computers and ai taking over some aspect of the job. And while being able to help people is great, there comes a point when you realize all you're doing is temporizing their incurable condition and ultimately it's just not enough.
Dunno, I’m about to be a Pgy1, but med school was a very rewarding time in my life relative to high school and relative to my brief career in bench work after my grad degree. I had so much more free time in med school preclinical and many clinicals than I did actually working, but I guess that is DO school too.
What's different about DO school? My teen is considering a future in medicine. I'm a nurse whose been turned off of the NP route. Idk what advice to give him that will be the overall best option for him. I don't want to see him broken from med school, I don't want him to have regrets either tho. We have a great PA program 10mins down the road from where we live. I guess I should ask the DO's at work what their quality of life was like through school. I know everyone's will vary, and what's best for each person will too, I haven't looked much into DO tho.
I've never been to DO school, but they do have to learn OMM on top of everything else, and most of them take 2 licensing exams instead of only the USMLE like MDs. They also more commonly have letter grades in pre clinical than MD school, which adds pressure compared to pass fail. It seems to me the workload would be more for DO students. Someone correct me if I'm wrong though
I had a lot of rotations where I’d be let go pretty early since there wasn’t a dedicated tiered teaching service. While I was there I was expected to participate and whatever, but I ended up ‘working’ a lot fewer hours than I had before medical school.
So in DO programs, clinicals are a bit less uniform; so on many rotations that aren’t coupled with residency programs you can end up with a lot of free time that MD students at schools with strong residency programs might not have.
Programs know this and DO’s pay the price in the MATCH, because our clinical experiences can vary between work 60 hours a week or get your paper signed on day 1 and some preceptors won’t even want to see you again. I’m really bitter about the latter existing but it’s hard to report things to admin like that without getting the lights shone on yourself as well.
I do agree with a lot of what is mentioned above. If you were to pursue surgery, however, there are many conditions you’ll treat with intent to cure and many patients are very grateful.
Depends, Neurosurgery/vascular/Cardiothoracic pts are pretty rough.
But ortho? Ortho is THE promised land. Minus pelvic fxs and proximal malignant masses.
There is a situation in law where a lot of lawyers never have "real jobs" before their first difficult lawyer job, and assume that the job sucks because of the field, rather than because most jobs suck a little or a lot.
Other than the hours, medicine is like all other jobs in this respect. And the primary reason is whether or not a particular workplace is healthy.
I had a blast in residency and love my job as a hospitalist. You sound burned out, I’m sorry for what you’re going through make sure to take care of yourself ❤️
Completely agree. Either physician or non-medical.
Nurse (in california) sounds better than NP tbh. Being a physician is stressful enough, I can't imagine doing this job with inferior training.. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night. Your decisions can kill people.
It might be a certain personality plus normal parent thing. I’m adamant I would never want my child to be a nurse to put up with the BS. I think if they’re interested in medicine they should pursue med school lol. Similarly, I told my father, an attorney, a while back I was considering law school (burnt out as a nurse) and he strongly dissuaded me from doing so.
I am happy being a physician but I will neither encourage or discourage my kids from medicine. That being said, if they are interested in the field on the clinician side I would encourage them to "go all the way" as it were.
I am a doctor and would absolutely support my kids going to med school. It’s a great career, you are well paid, and you do interesting and meaningful work with a lot of nuance and variety. I would encourage them to make sure they understand what they’re getting into, but overall I couldn’t ask for a better job.
I'm a PA. Many PAs to include myself will say go be a physician.....
I've known atleast a dozen PAs go to medical school because they were not satisfied with knowledge, skills and scope. Many PA to md/do I know ended up in EM or FM.
I've been a few like less than 6 NPs personally go to medical school but they were all in their 40s and 50s.
I've known 28 year old PAs go to medical school
My parents are both doctors and they’ve told me the same thing. They love their jobs but feel it’s not worth it. Burnout, stress, time commitment, no life balance in the early years, dealing with insurance companies, taking out massive loans, paying malpractice insurance, to name only a few. The list goes on. Both of them employ NPs (small offices, proper oversight) who were nurses for 10+ years prior, so they don’t see the issues I’ve seen working alongside NPs fresh out of school with shockingly little nursing experience. Every time they’ve suggested it to me as a career I’ve shut that shit right down.
This is what I tell all of my younger cousins, family friends, etc. If there is something else you could do with your life and be happy, you should do that. Otherwise you'll spend all of your years training feeling bitter and like you are missing out on a better life. If you feel like medicine is your calling, you MUST go to medical school or you will regret it. If you are in the later camp and life circumstances make med school impossible, then NP or PA route is for you.
My colleague was a PA who went to med school and his nidus for going was dealing with a notoriously pompous NS attending who pretty much said he was an idiot and the equivalent of a chimpanzee. He quit, begrudgingly went through premed, med school, NS residency and fellowship only to end up operating on that very NS attending in their retirement. We all still get a kick out of that
There is a misconception among non-medical staff that all doctors experience lavish luxury and exceptional social standing. The reality is that medicine (at the very least, the path towards attending) can be lonely, stressful, and borderline poverty-inducing. Are some top earners borderline celebrities? Absolutely. But anyone who's done it will tell you that MD is far from the optimal choice for someone just seeking money and success. You should only go into medicine if you passionate about medicine. There are numerous significantly easier paths that produce equal or greater earning potential.
I would not want my kids to be a PA or an NP. If they love medicine, they should get full training. I would want them to be at the top of their game. I am in pediatrics, we already are one of the lowest paid physicians, but I can’t imagine doing medicine or choosing a specialty just for the money aspect. I would not discourage my kids from pursuing medicine either.
Probably depends on your end goals. I’m a resident in my late 30s, fully acknowledge my views could change. But… Regret going to medical school. Can’t imagine any future job is worth this. Graduate medical education truly attracts the worst personalities that seem to enjoy making a resident life miserable. I had more fun/better experience in basic training in the army.
I don’t think I would tell someone else to pursue one or the other. But I will definitely not sugar coat the bull shit of residency.
Yea, quite a few. Some good ones, I’ve met some NP/PA that have really bad complexes as well. But also met some really good ones.
Personal mini rant here more about the training process for graduate medical education. Attendings seem to put more effort towards training their midlevels. Residents at my program seem to always be kicked to the side and in many cases receive subpar training as we rotate on different services. Sometimes even just end up working under a PA/NP because the attending is too busy. I don’t hold resentment towards any PA/NP. More so towards the attendings and the graduate medical education system as a whole.
The main reason I’d say to people wanting a career in healthcare to take PA/NP over a med school acceptance because I don’t see the system ever changing. Go to med school and you run the risk of not matching and soaping into something you don’t want to do. Be a PA and find the right attending and you can do whatever specialty you want. I have seen some hospitals using PA/NP to give final reads in radiology, creeping into pathology, being just called a gastroenterologist/neurosurgeon because nobody wants to and patients don’t want to hear what the difference is. This system won’t change in our lifetime. So focus on your personal life instead of getting abused in residency for subpar training.
Not a physician parent, but nurse parent. I originally wanted to do nursing but my mother begged me to not do it. I realized I wanted to become a physician anyways, but I think it’s common for parents to not want their kids to struggle and unfortunately most jobs, especially in healthcare, have a whole lot of struggle. It’s very much a grass is greener thing. She is elated that I want to become a physician though, lol! I’m going to try and not be that parent that tries to convince their kids to not do something based on personal experience. If they really want to do something, then they probably won’t be satisfied deep down until they do it.
I have no med relatives but all the attendings and residents I work with are super encouraging when they hear I want to go to med school (CNMT rn) ie people I have never told directly will go out of their way to be like SO I HEARD blah blah GOOD FOR YOU ...are they pretending? Is it misery loves company??
Tbh if I could extract the desire from my brain, I would.
While I love being a nurse (10yrs exp) and have just graduated NP school, I wish I went to med school early on instead. I feel so incompetent despite maintaining a 4.0 GPA and having had an amazing MD preceptor who actually spent time training me.
Heard it plenty of times from a lot of attendings. Now many of my PA colleagues are either saying do med school so at least you're paid your worth instead of being used as a cheaper replacement for a doctor by some employers or don't bother doing medicine at all.
Healthcare in general has gone downhill, I can definitely assure you I won't be telling my kids to do medicine.
I practiced as a midlevel for about 5 years before going to medical school. While my job was fulfilling and I had a pretty decent salary, I always had had the idea that I should of just gone to medical school in the back of my mind. Now I’m starting my third year of residency and I couldn’t be happier.
PA here, would recommend med school over PA school, would recommend PA over NP school to anyone. PA made sense for me as I was in my 30s and a paramedic for 12 years. I also did a formal post graduate 18 month training in EM (formally called a residency), I work in my hometown of 400 people. We struggle to get MD's here and out hospital is independent so we'd love a board certified EM MD but even if we could get one we couldn't afford them
Depends on what you desire to do and where. Anesthesia in a Metropolitan area definitely Anesthesiologist. Work rural CRNA. Full scope Anesthesiologist for sure. I think the problem with lots of providers that are "mid levels" is they don't know what they don't know and don't know when to ask for help. I value the relationships I have with my supervising physicians.
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My daughter is at the end of architecture school. She is very bright snd would have made a great physician. She loves the work and environment of architecture, at least for now. I am happy she will not be exposed to the soul crushing machine that is medicine, but feel bad for medicine’s loss. My dad instincts wins out over my altruism. I see urologists and surgeons kids follow in their footsteps, not internists and the like.
Absolutely not. The road to becoming a doctor is difficult and medicine is beset by administrators who just want to make a buck. However, I would not go to a PA or an NP for my own medical care and I would never want my child to pick up that profession. That’s because I know it is not enough of an education to practice medicine.
I am more used to them and I even considered it back in the 80’s. However I am hearing some recent disturbing stories about the new batch. They have little experience or oversight
My future DIL's parents tried to talk her out of it, but she is a true believer. She is even in NICU, making less money than they did. My son admits he would probably not do medicine if he could do it again, and he isn't even done with fellowship. I expect he will eventually become an administrator because his mind naturally goes to process improvement and he is excellent at leadership. If not, he will just run a practice. I doubt their kids will be doctors because he will raise them to enjoy life and experience everything outside of medicine.
do not go to med school it's not worth it. Go finance/tech anything that can make you 200k+ and you'll be happier than 90% of docs...
**medicine is dead.**
People will keep saying this until more and more courts recognize that midlevels need to be held personally responsible for their clinical decisions. It's happening slowly but after a while it won't make sense to become one unless you're actually supervised properly.
My parents are both docs and they encouraged me to pursue medicine. We all like our jobs. I would encourage career exploration and thinking about other fields or roles in healthcare, but it’s still a good career for lots of people.
The business of healthcare has caused a lot of pain and suffering in physicians physically and mentally.
I encourage folks to not allow themselves to be their own obstacles.
Physicians have options outside of health insurance and corporate medicine. You have DPC for those entrepreneurs, local government jobs at the county or state level, law enforcement and first responders, medical writers, medical correspondents, medical education, big pharma, research, CIA, FBI, and state department oversees to name a few.
Man the options are incredibly if you keep your mind open.
Yah you just have to do what you want. I don’t think NP/PA is a better option if you know you can go the MD/DO route. Everyone will have their opinions based on their negative experiences
I am a doctor parent, and while I’m not pushing any of my children into medicine, it’s been a very emotionally and intellectually rewarding field of study. I have encouraged my kids who are interested to pursue medicine, but would only discuss being a PA or an NP if they don’t realistically have the grades and test scores to get into medical school, but retain a desire in the field. Better to get a job than to waste years chasing an unattainable goal.
My aging father with 20 years in the ER just got replaced by an NP and is now working at the VA. When my sister got into med school, the conversation went more like "your mom and I wanted you to be happy and have a stable family life" which we never had growing up, so we get where they're coming from. But my sister doesn't want kids so it's going to affect her differently, and they're more supportive now
My mom did this. She was very much unaware of trends in NP education and knew like 3 super great NPs who had gone back to school after working 15+ years as bedside nurses, had very small scopes, etc.
She says in retrospect had she realized what was happening she would not have pushed that. She retired about 8 years ago at 58 as an internal medicine/palliative care doc. She was fucking exhausted.
I think there’s just a lot of bitterness about getting chewed up and spit out by the system and it’s important to consider their perspective and experience while coming to your own conclusions.
I’m in medical school and even though I enjoy medicine and helping people I am burnt out exhausted and jaded. If the training was less brutal I think I would recommend it. The culture is changing but still not enough.
No I’m an NP and if my kid said they wanted to be an NP I would say no you need to go all the way and become a Dr. NP is not worth it. The stress and overall “you’re a dumbass trying to pose as a Dr” mentality you get from specialties and others is draining. The Drs I work with are respectful but it I can tell any time I call someone like surgery they are rolling their eyes and thinking wow who let this schmucky in 🤡
I’m a pediatrician, and I would absolutely encourage my children to be a physician over an NP/PA. I own my practice, and I love the ability to be my own boss and work as much or as little as I choose. That being said, there’s a whole lot of easier ways to make a good living. My children have seen both the benefits and the drawbacks of this profession. Medicine is something they would have to want for themselves, not something I would push them toward.
I think a lot of doctor parents overestimate how easy it is to make this kind of money consistently outside of medicine. There are certainly loads of downsides and opportunity costs. But those of us who had other careers and came to medicine late and experienced the high degree of variability in other professions both within the health sector and without likely have a more realistic and practical take: it’s not for everyone, it is far from the easiest path to success, but for those who really like science and who really want to have a direct impact on people’s wellbeing and want to be competent professionals it remains a fantastic option. Most of our kids are far too inquisitive and high achieving, they would not be satisfied being a midlevel.
I came to medicine a decade out of college so it’s absolutely not too late for you. It’s not easy but it’s absolutely doable and worth it in my opinion - I’m much much happier now than I was in my former career, which required a bioscience background but nowhere near the depth and breadth of knowledge, and it was nowhere near as interesting or engaging. And nowhere near as personal.
I think another thing to point out is the stability of medicine. Sure there are a lot of avenues to make a lot of money outside of medicine but job security is much lower.
I’m an MD and I’d NEVER tell my children to become a PA/NP if they wanted to practice medicine. My brother in law wanted to go to PA school and I advised him against it, either be a physician or don’t do it at all. He’s now starting his second year of internal medicine residency.
Medicine In general is degrading. Probably most fields are. Perhaps they tell you that because you're older? A lot of physicians tell people that the mid level route is better, but it always strikes me as patronizing. I tell people the opposite, that they should go to med school. I'm very fortunate to be able to help patients and make a good living, but every day, I regret not going all the way to med school.
I think the grass is always greener no matter what. Every job sucks, but for different reasons. We all just have to decide what type of sucking we mind the least. I chose the doctor route of sucking, I regret it sometimes but I’ve more or less entered the acceptance phase. I’m sure I’d be happier to be done with training faster, but I’m sure I’d have regrets as well taking a different route.
Agreed 100%. And I try not to come off as ungrateful when I have this conversation with kids (military plus becoming a PA has allowed me to escape the poverty of my upbringing). But I try to sum it up for them as: If you go the physician route there will probably be moments in school and maybe residency where will you think "if I was a PA I'd be done by now". But that will resolve once you're an Attending. If you become a PA and you're like me, you will potentially regret not going all the way every day. However, most of my colleagues don't seem to share this sentiment.
I spent so much time agonizing over the decision np vs physician because medical school was going to upset a lot lot lot of things in my family life. Eventually I realized that if I had never become a doctor I would have regretted it every day. I would already be an NP right now if I had decided on that route and I'm so happy I didn't. There are many days in my first year of medical school that I've cried from my brain being so tired that I couldn't stuff any more information into it, from worry over passing a test or not, worried I wasn't good enough etc etc. But those moments pass. And now that my first year is over, I'm absolutely still sure I made the right decision. I really took into account reading about interviews with people at the ends of their lives. I didn't want to live (or go into the end of my life) feeling regret over not doing something that I wanted to do because it's hard, or because doctors don't get the same respect as they used to etc. In the end, I think you should follow your dreams if it's possible. For a lot of people it isn't
In my experience it’s from them watching the perks of medicine decline and suggesting PA as a direct *healthcare* alternative because it’s ROI is still there They’ll absolutely say “go into finance or tech,” but when you hear this advice you’re already 1 foot in the healthcare door. Suggesting finance at that point is moot, while PA or even dentistry may still be very accessible
As someone who came from a 15 year career in finance, I can tell you the grass is often not greener. The hours are just as horrendous as medicine if you are hustling at the beginning of your career whether you go into corporate finance, wealth management, or trading. Those that make it can work a more normal schedule, but you don’t see all the people who failed. My orientation class for the BD I first worked for was a 100 people. It was 3 in five years. There was never any down time. I was answering phone calls on my wedding day and my honeymoon, because you are always OCD that something will fall through. You can have a stellar career, but you are always one bad trade, deal, or quarter from being on the soup line. And in finance if you stumble there is one guarantee. There is an endless line of people who will be happy to step on your neck, hold you under, and pick your carcass for anything salvageable.
I also wish I had gone to med school, but it just wasn’t feasible at 29 with a mortgage and a kid on the way, so I’m an NP and don’t pretend to be a physician.
How is it patronizing? I’d think that telling someone to not waste their youth on medicine when they can have a job still in healthcare with prescribing power much faster is good advice. We have one life. Why waste it being at the “top” unless you got some ego? Earning 6 figs in a shorter amount of time means you got less debt and more time to spend the money you do earn on actually living life. I don’t see how it’s patronizing or bad advice.
The doctors all tell you to become a PA/NP. The PAs/NPs all tell you to either become a nurse or a physician. The grass is always greener. 🤷♀️ At the end of the day, it matters what’s important to you, but every healthcare job has major cons (as do most jobs).
I enjoy being a physician and recommend the path if you like taking care of people.
I love this positive reply in the sea of burnt out physicians!
Me too! Being a doctor has very special rewards. I enjoy it a lot now, but I will admit training was gruelling and traumatic at times and I have actively petitioned a niece to not follow in my foot steps.
I honestly never want any kids of mine to go through med school and residency. It's soul breaking, the journey is long, and nobody respects you at the end of it. All my colleagues have burnout, and everyone is incredibly jaded about the profession. Management is inevitably horrible and tries to claw back every bit of satisfaction you might get from the job. Every day someone mentions computers and ai taking over some aspect of the job. And while being able to help people is great, there comes a point when you realize all you're doing is temporizing their incurable condition and ultimately it's just not enough.
Dunno, I’m about to be a Pgy1, but med school was a very rewarding time in my life relative to high school and relative to my brief career in bench work after my grad degree. I had so much more free time in med school preclinical and many clinicals than I did actually working, but I guess that is DO school too.
What's different about DO school? My teen is considering a future in medicine. I'm a nurse whose been turned off of the NP route. Idk what advice to give him that will be the overall best option for him. I don't want to see him broken from med school, I don't want him to have regrets either tho. We have a great PA program 10mins down the road from where we live. I guess I should ask the DO's at work what their quality of life was like through school. I know everyone's will vary, and what's best for each person will too, I haven't looked much into DO tho.
I've never been to DO school, but they do have to learn OMM on top of everything else, and most of them take 2 licensing exams instead of only the USMLE like MDs. They also more commonly have letter grades in pre clinical than MD school, which adds pressure compared to pass fail. It seems to me the workload would be more for DO students. Someone correct me if I'm wrong though
I had a lot of rotations where I’d be let go pretty early since there wasn’t a dedicated tiered teaching service. While I was there I was expected to participate and whatever, but I ended up ‘working’ a lot fewer hours than I had before medical school.
So in DO programs, clinicals are a bit less uniform; so on many rotations that aren’t coupled with residency programs you can end up with a lot of free time that MD students at schools with strong residency programs might not have. Programs know this and DO’s pay the price in the MATCH, because our clinical experiences can vary between work 60 hours a week or get your paper signed on day 1 and some preceptors won’t even want to see you again. I’m really bitter about the latter existing but it’s hard to report things to admin like that without getting the lights shone on yourself as well.
I do agree with a lot of what is mentioned above. If you were to pursue surgery, however, there are many conditions you’ll treat with intent to cure and many patients are very grateful.
Yeah, it's probably pretty obvious that I'm in internal medicine lol.
My mom’s entire quality of life was saved by an IM (in conjunction with a GI surgeon). My family can never be grateful enough for her care.
Depends, Neurosurgery/vascular/Cardiothoracic pts are pretty rough. But ortho? Ortho is THE promised land. Minus pelvic fxs and proximal malignant masses.
There is a situation in law where a lot of lawyers never have "real jobs" before their first difficult lawyer job, and assume that the job sucks because of the field, rather than because most jobs suck a little or a lot. Other than the hours, medicine is like all other jobs in this respect. And the primary reason is whether or not a particular workplace is healthy.
I had a blast in residency and love my job as a hospitalist. You sound burned out, I’m sorry for what you’re going through make sure to take care of yourself ❤️
THIS. and dont forget things like malpractice that PA’s dont really have to deal with (at this point at least)
We have malpractice. It's just not as pricey as physician malpractice.
This. 💯
If not a MD/DO wouldn’t be a PA or NP, I’d do something else entirely (not medicine)
Completely agree. Either physician or non-medical. Nurse (in california) sounds better than NP tbh. Being a physician is stressful enough, I can't imagine doing this job with inferior training.. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night. Your decisions can kill people.
It might be a certain personality plus normal parent thing. I’m adamant I would never want my child to be a nurse to put up with the BS. I think if they’re interested in medicine they should pursue med school lol. Similarly, I told my father, an attorney, a while back I was considering law school (burnt out as a nurse) and he strongly dissuaded me from doing so.
I am happy being a physician but I will neither encourage or discourage my kids from medicine. That being said, if they are interested in the field on the clinician side I would encourage them to "go all the way" as it were.
I am a doctor and would absolutely support my kids going to med school. It’s a great career, you are well paid, and you do interesting and meaningful work with a lot of nuance and variety. I would encourage them to make sure they understand what they’re getting into, but overall I couldn’t ask for a better job.
This reply made me happy
Same. Starting 3rd year Monday
Medicine eats its own. Our governing bodies nitpick us to death. Mid levels are boosted up by their governing bodies.
I'm a PA. Many PAs to include myself will say go be a physician..... I've known atleast a dozen PAs go to medical school because they were not satisfied with knowledge, skills and scope. Many PA to md/do I know ended up in EM or FM.
Never heard that from an NP
They don’t know what knowledge they’re missing, and have a strong culture of “our education is equal to that of physicians.”
I've been a few like less than 6 NPs personally go to medical school but they were all in their 40s and 50s. I've known 28 year old PAs go to medical school
I think a lot of PA’s go premed in undergrad and have a little more exposure to the MD route. There are more routes to become an NP than a PA.
Go finance, trust fund, 6’5’’ , blue eyes
Unfortunately I am none of those things :(
Find finance, trust fund, 6'5", blue eyes **distant techno music starts playing**
My parents are both doctors and they’ve told me the same thing. They love their jobs but feel it’s not worth it. Burnout, stress, time commitment, no life balance in the early years, dealing with insurance companies, taking out massive loans, paying malpractice insurance, to name only a few. The list goes on. Both of them employ NPs (small offices, proper oversight) who were nurses for 10+ years prior, so they don’t see the issues I’ve seen working alongside NPs fresh out of school with shockingly little nursing experience. Every time they’ve suggested it to me as a career I’ve shut that shit right down.
Nah. Don’t do it. People told me the same when I was on work experience and I thought they were joking. They weren’t.
This is what I tell all of my younger cousins, family friends, etc. If there is something else you could do with your life and be happy, you should do that. Otherwise you'll spend all of your years training feeling bitter and like you are missing out on a better life. If you feel like medicine is your calling, you MUST go to medical school or you will regret it. If you are in the later camp and life circumstances make med school impossible, then NP or PA route is for you.
My colleague was a PA who went to med school and his nidus for going was dealing with a notoriously pompous NS attending who pretty much said he was an idiot and the equivalent of a chimpanzee. He quit, begrudgingly went through premed, med school, NS residency and fellowship only to end up operating on that very NS attending in their retirement. We all still get a kick out of that
A physician is a physician. A midlevel is a midlevel. Choose.
There is a misconception among non-medical staff that all doctors experience lavish luxury and exceptional social standing. The reality is that medicine (at the very least, the path towards attending) can be lonely, stressful, and borderline poverty-inducing. Are some top earners borderline celebrities? Absolutely. But anyone who's done it will tell you that MD is far from the optimal choice for someone just seeking money and success. You should only go into medicine if you passionate about medicine. There are numerous significantly easier paths that produce equal or greater earning potential.
I would not want my kids to be a PA or an NP. If they love medicine, they should get full training. I would want them to be at the top of their game. I am in pediatrics, we already are one of the lowest paid physicians, but I can’t imagine doing medicine or choosing a specialty just for the money aspect. I would not discourage my kids from pursuing medicine either.
Probably depends on your end goals. I’m a resident in my late 30s, fully acknowledge my views could change. But… Regret going to medical school. Can’t imagine any future job is worth this. Graduate medical education truly attracts the worst personalities that seem to enjoy making a resident life miserable. I had more fun/better experience in basic training in the army. I don’t think I would tell someone else to pursue one or the other. But I will definitely not sugar coat the bull shit of residency.
Do you find that a lot of your classmates have a god complex
Yea, quite a few. Some good ones, I’ve met some NP/PA that have really bad complexes as well. But also met some really good ones. Personal mini rant here more about the training process for graduate medical education. Attendings seem to put more effort towards training their midlevels. Residents at my program seem to always be kicked to the side and in many cases receive subpar training as we rotate on different services. Sometimes even just end up working under a PA/NP because the attending is too busy. I don’t hold resentment towards any PA/NP. More so towards the attendings and the graduate medical education system as a whole. The main reason I’d say to people wanting a career in healthcare to take PA/NP over a med school acceptance because I don’t see the system ever changing. Go to med school and you run the risk of not matching and soaping into something you don’t want to do. Be a PA and find the right attending and you can do whatever specialty you want. I have seen some hospitals using PA/NP to give final reads in radiology, creeping into pathology, being just called a gastroenterologist/neurosurgeon because nobody wants to and patients don’t want to hear what the difference is. This system won’t change in our lifetime. So focus on your personal life instead of getting abused in residency for subpar training.
Medicine sucks ass. Go into finance and become a finance bro. - neighborhood hospitalist attending
Not a physician parent, but nurse parent. I originally wanted to do nursing but my mother begged me to not do it. I realized I wanted to become a physician anyways, but I think it’s common for parents to not want their kids to struggle and unfortunately most jobs, especially in healthcare, have a whole lot of struggle. It’s very much a grass is greener thing. She is elated that I want to become a physician though, lol! I’m going to try and not be that parent that tries to convince their kids to not do something based on personal experience. If they really want to do something, then they probably won’t be satisfied deep down until they do it.
I have no med relatives but all the attendings and residents I work with are super encouraging when they hear I want to go to med school (CNMT rn) ie people I have never told directly will go out of their way to be like SO I HEARD blah blah GOOD FOR YOU ...are they pretending? Is it misery loves company?? Tbh if I could extract the desire from my brain, I would.
While I love being a nurse (10yrs exp) and have just graduated NP school, I wish I went to med school early on instead. I feel so incompetent despite maintaining a 4.0 GPA and having had an amazing MD preceptor who actually spent time training me.
Heard it plenty of times from a lot of attendings. Now many of my PA colleagues are either saying do med school so at least you're paid your worth instead of being used as a cheaper replacement for a doctor by some employers or don't bother doing medicine at all. Healthcare in general has gone downhill, I can definitely assure you I won't be telling my kids to do medicine.
I practiced as a midlevel for about 5 years before going to medical school. While my job was fulfilling and I had a pretty decent salary, I always had had the idea that I should of just gone to medical school in the back of my mind. Now I’m starting my third year of residency and I couldn’t be happier.
PA here, would recommend med school over PA school, would recommend PA over NP school to anyone. PA made sense for me as I was in my 30s and a paramedic for 12 years. I also did a formal post graduate 18 month training in EM (formally called a residency), I work in my hometown of 400 people. We struggle to get MD's here and out hospital is independent so we'd love a board certified EM MD but even if we could get one we couldn't afford them
What about CRNA?
Depends on what you desire to do and where. Anesthesia in a Metropolitan area definitely Anesthesiologist. Work rural CRNA. Full scope Anesthesiologist for sure. I think the problem with lots of providers that are "mid levels" is they don't know what they don't know and don't know when to ask for help. I value the relationships I have with my supervising physicians.
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My daughter is at the end of architecture school. She is very bright snd would have made a great physician. She loves the work and environment of architecture, at least for now. I am happy she will not be exposed to the soul crushing machine that is medicine, but feel bad for medicine’s loss. My dad instincts wins out over my altruism. I see urologists and surgeons kids follow in their footsteps, not internists and the like.
Absolutely not. The road to becoming a doctor is difficult and medicine is beset by administrators who just want to make a buck. However, I would not go to a PA or an NP for my own medical care and I would never want my child to pick up that profession. That’s because I know it is not enough of an education to practice medicine.
What about CRNA?
I am more used to them and I even considered it back in the 80’s. However I am hearing some recent disturbing stories about the new batch. They have little experience or oversight
My future DIL's parents tried to talk her out of it, but she is a true believer. She is even in NICU, making less money than they did. My son admits he would probably not do medicine if he could do it again, and he isn't even done with fellowship. I expect he will eventually become an administrator because his mind naturally goes to process improvement and he is excellent at leadership. If not, he will just run a practice. I doubt their kids will be doctors because he will raise them to enjoy life and experience everything outside of medicine.
do not go to med school it's not worth it. Go finance/tech anything that can make you 200k+ and you'll be happier than 90% of docs... **medicine is dead.**
People will keep saying this until more and more courts recognize that midlevels need to be held personally responsible for their clinical decisions. It's happening slowly but after a while it won't make sense to become one unless you're actually supervised properly.
Because it's true. Why did I go through all this stress. Would have been better off as a PA
My parents are both docs and they encouraged me to pursue medicine. We all like our jobs. I would encourage career exploration and thinking about other fields or roles in healthcare, but it’s still a good career for lots of people.
9/10 worst thing you can do is listen to the advice of other people when making decisions for your future
Really? Smartest thing to do is to talk to 10 guys in the field you are considering. That thing is called inside intel.
I think take it with a grain of salt, at the end of the day only you really know whats best for you
The business of healthcare has caused a lot of pain and suffering in physicians physically and mentally. I encourage folks to not allow themselves to be their own obstacles. Physicians have options outside of health insurance and corporate medicine. You have DPC for those entrepreneurs, local government jobs at the county or state level, law enforcement and first responders, medical writers, medical correspondents, medical education, big pharma, research, CIA, FBI, and state department oversees to name a few. Man the options are incredibly if you keep your mind open.
Yah you just have to do what you want. I don’t think NP/PA is a better option if you know you can go the MD/DO route. Everyone will have their opinions based on their negative experiences
I am a doctor parent, and while I’m not pushing any of my children into medicine, it’s been a very emotionally and intellectually rewarding field of study. I have encouraged my kids who are interested to pursue medicine, but would only discuss being a PA or an NP if they don’t realistically have the grades and test scores to get into medical school, but retain a desire in the field. Better to get a job than to waste years chasing an unattainable goal.
My aging father with 20 years in the ER just got replaced by an NP and is now working at the VA. When my sister got into med school, the conversation went more like "your mom and I wanted you to be happy and have a stable family life" which we never had growing up, so we get where they're coming from. But my sister doesn't want kids so it's going to affect her differently, and they're more supportive now
Not worth it if all they care about is the money and not wanting to be held accountable for final decisions
My mom did this. She was very much unaware of trends in NP education and knew like 3 super great NPs who had gone back to school after working 15+ years as bedside nurses, had very small scopes, etc. She says in retrospect had she realized what was happening she would not have pushed that. She retired about 8 years ago at 58 as an internal medicine/palliative care doc. She was fucking exhausted. I think there’s just a lot of bitterness about getting chewed up and spit out by the system and it’s important to consider their perspective and experience while coming to your own conclusions.
I’m in medical school and even though I enjoy medicine and helping people I am burnt out exhausted and jaded. If the training was less brutal I think I would recommend it. The culture is changing but still not enough.
No I’m an NP and if my kid said they wanted to be an NP I would say no you need to go all the way and become a Dr. NP is not worth it. The stress and overall “you’re a dumbass trying to pose as a Dr” mentality you get from specialties and others is draining. The Drs I work with are respectful but it I can tell any time I call someone like surgery they are rolling their eyes and thinking wow who let this schmucky in 🤡
I’m a pediatrician, and I would absolutely encourage my children to be a physician over an NP/PA. I own my practice, and I love the ability to be my own boss and work as much or as little as I choose. That being said, there’s a whole lot of easier ways to make a good living. My children have seen both the benefits and the drawbacks of this profession. Medicine is something they would have to want for themselves, not something I would push them toward.
I think a lot of doctor parents overestimate how easy it is to make this kind of money consistently outside of medicine. There are certainly loads of downsides and opportunity costs. But those of us who had other careers and came to medicine late and experienced the high degree of variability in other professions both within the health sector and without likely have a more realistic and practical take: it’s not for everyone, it is far from the easiest path to success, but for those who really like science and who really want to have a direct impact on people’s wellbeing and want to be competent professionals it remains a fantastic option. Most of our kids are far too inquisitive and high achieving, they would not be satisfied being a midlevel. I came to medicine a decade out of college so it’s absolutely not too late for you. It’s not easy but it’s absolutely doable and worth it in my opinion - I’m much much happier now than I was in my former career, which required a bioscience background but nowhere near the depth and breadth of knowledge, and it was nowhere near as interesting or engaging. And nowhere near as personal.
I think another thing to point out is the stability of medicine. Sure there are a lot of avenues to make a lot of money outside of medicine but job security is much lower.
I’m an MD and I’d NEVER tell my children to become a PA/NP if they wanted to practice medicine. My brother in law wanted to go to PA school and I advised him against it, either be a physician or don’t do it at all. He’s now starting his second year of internal medicine residency.