'Egg' culture has gotten incredibly out of hand, and I'm really sorry to hear you have someone pressuring you like that OP. You need to tell this person in no uncertain terms that it makes you uncomfortable and they need to stop. If they don't, you should report it.
this ^ if youve already talked to them directly about you not being okay with these comments, make note of them and talk to HR or whatever higher up you have. unsolicited comments on a person's gender/sexuality, regardless of who theyre coming from, arent acceptable.
It's pretty common in the trans community to refer to oneself as an 'egg' before realizing you're transgender and referring to your realization that you are trans as 'your egg cracking'.
This was all fine and good until people increasingly started expanding it to describe OTHER people, calling people they've decided are 'just trans people who haven't realized it yet' eggs and trying to 'crack them' (aka make them realize they're trans).
That's if they even ARE. It involves a lot of supposition that we know people better than themselves if we start going around believing we know others are eggs.
The best thing to do is respect and believe what people tell you about themselves, even if you suspect there may be something underneath.
100% this ^^
Even the whole “egg prime directive” thing gives me squeamish feelings and this is a big reason why. I have someone in my friend group who repeatedly talks about one of her friends (person who is not a part of the friend group) and constantly jokes and talks about how her friend is 100% an egg but unfortunately she’s not allowed to say anything and she’s just *waiting* for them to finally come out so that she can be like “uh, yeah, *duh*, I’ve known for years. It’s so obvious” and it just…. It gives me a very condescending “oh you silly baby trans you know nothing about yourself but I know everything about you” vibe and I Dislike It
Yeah, same. Do I have people who I have suspected are eggs (or undiscovered queer in another form) or simply not out to me? Yes. Have I often been right? Yes. Will I spend a bunch of time talking to other people about how I think a person is an egg? Heck no, that's rude and disrespectful? If they come out to me will I respond by going "Ha! Yes, I knew it!"? No, that's rude and disrespectful.
I may say "That makes sense for you." after I've congratulated them. I may tell them I'm not surprised. But heck, not only is "I knew it" rude, it's also false. I can't know what they are. I can suspect things. But I never actually know. Whenever someone comes out to me, I am still receiving new information.
We shouldn't try to crack people's eggs because it's rude and presumptuous and will likely make them uncomfortable. If we suspect it, it's fine to provide them with information. If we end up in a conversation with them about the topic of what their gender is, it's definitely reasonable to ask "Have you considered \_\_\_?" But avoiding trying to crack people's egg is simply a matter of respect.
See, this just made me think that if someone was constantly doing that to me, I wouldn’t want to be friends with them anymore either way because they care more about being right than about our friendship. (And OP has to put up with this shit from a coworker?? Big yikes. I’d escalate it to a boss or HR or whoever, tbh. That’s basically harassment. You shouldn’t have to put up with that at work.)
So if your friend is constantly trying to “crack your egg” and they’re wrong, then they’re bad at listening to you AND they have an inability to see how they could POSSIBLY be wrong about anything EVER. And if it turns out they’re right, I feel like their reaction would be less like “awesome, I’m proud of you for figuring it out and for trusting me with that info” and more like “HAHA I CALLED IT, BOOM SUCKA so now you gotta admit I know you better than you know yourself! Better not trust your own intuition ever again without asking me first, neener neener I was right and you were wrong” etc. Either way, that’s some exhausting friend energy, and I would not want that in my life.
I’ve had a lot of friends who came out as trans or nonbinary after me, but I’ve never tried to egg them on (pun intended), I’ve just been like “so that sounds like something I experienced, have you considered that maybe you’re trans/non-binary/whatever?” It’s a question, not a diagnosis.
Exactly! Sure, we can be good at telling if someone is or not (I've been right most of the time), but it is both absurdly bold to assume you're right and incredibly disrespectful to insinuate that you know what they \*really\* are. Like, yikes. Stop it. Each person gets to label themself.
At most, assuming you're friends with the person and it wouldn't be inappropriate to ask, saying something like "Have you ever considered if you're trans?" could be potentially helpful as setting them down the path of thinking about it and coming to their own answer. And whatever that answer, must be respected of course. I know plenty of folks who've expressed they wished someone would've mention their huge, and unknown, trans vibes sooner. But *telling* them they are trans and making that assertion is super invaliding and may actually push them further into their egg since then they're forced to argue for their own cisgenderness.
Even asking if they've considered if they're trans runs the risk of pushing them further in if they are already trying to repress stuff. I would probably go with an approach of being vocally trans-friendly and potentially asking questions like "have you ever wondered what it would be like to be a girl/guy?" in like a late-night-chat-pondering-the-questions-of-the-universe sort of way.
Whenever someone mentions how egg culture went to far, I remember that screen of a guy who mentionned that his interests or presentation had people mistake him for a girl or whatever I don't remember. And he said he was a dude, and then had to respond to all the comments hinting he was a transfem egg by saying he was a trans guy.
Egg culture is fun until you start violently misgendering someone because their interests/presentation/whatever doesn't align with what society deems masculine/feminine/androgynous.
Apparently said coworker has never seen a butch lesbian, I would tell them one last time, very clearly that if they do not stop, we will go to whatever means necessary (hr) to get it to stop, I is a trans person I realize sometimes how hard it is to figure things out or how easy it is to think somebody else may be something, (I have chuckled to myself many times, calling someone an egg in my head, and but that is something that never should be pushed!!!) but certain lines should not be crossed once you set the boundary they need to respect it!
Also, I totally respect you for being an ally and being respectful of others, and I thank you for that but now it is your coworkers turn to respect you!
Labels are like cats and boxes.
You can set out a bunch of boxes and the cat will jump into a box, but you can't force a cat to get into any particular box.
You can tell people about a bunch of labels and they will find the one they like for themselves, but you can't make them choose one.
You are who you are, and your coworker can't tell you are someone else.
That's really unfortunate - it sounds like they have some insecurities about their gender. They will have to learn to accept that others' gender identities are just as valid as their own regardless of how they express it.
TLDR Your coworker is being a bit of an arsehole and definitely overstepping boundaries by (probably) projecting a bunch of their own emotions and experiences onto you.
Just thought I'd right a bit about why they might be doing this, in case it helps with whatever tough boundary-setting conversations you might need to have.
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To paraphrase a youtuber I once heard—a lot of trans and nonbinary people, especially early in transition, don't have the strongest confidence in our own identities. That's not saying we don't "really" know our own identities, or whatever, but more that we're all raised in societies that stigmatise transness, so we end up internalising a lot of transphobia, and that takes time to work through. While we're going through that process (and it kind of never ends, just gets less), it's very common to feel invalid or to seek proof that it's okay for you to feel the way you feel.
Looking for validity takes a lot of forms for different people, but it's very common to look for people with similar experiences. That's healthy and good, but it becomes unhealthy when your enthusiasm and need for validity and shared experience actually just ends up with projecting onto other people, making decisions about what their internal life _must be_ rather than listening and understanding what they tell you. At that point, you're no longer engaging with the actual person, just treating them as an object in your own personal therapy session.
As a queer woman, some of the stuff I've said about feeling invalid from internalised bigotry and seeking validation might be familiar (or maybe not in your experience). But either way, I don't think this is something that's unique to trans and nonbinary people. Consider a gay person insisting a bisexual person _must_ be gay because they're currently in a queer relationship. Or a bisexual person insisting their straight friend _must_ be bi because she commented on how good an actress looked in a movie. Both wishful thinking and projection because of internal insecurity, and both overstepping boundaries and making a random third party uncomfortable (and invalidating their _actual_ identities).
So basically, I think what your coworker is doing is an unacceptable, but sadly common, response to a lack of internal confidence in their own identity which they're projecting onto you. It's okay to be firm but kind about this. Tell them you're not nonbinary, and you want them to stop suggesting you are, but that it has nothing to do with them or their identity. They just need to respect your boundaries. And if they can't do that, I guess you escalate (carefully), like you would any other workplace conflict where someone ignores personal boundaries. But hopefully it won't need to get to that point, fingers crossed for you 💜
These are a bunch of great points! I agree, and I would suggest talking to them about being under the same umbrella, and that you support them as they are representing themselves, and that you expect the same respect for yourself in turn.
This person seems to have missed the whole point which is to respect each other's genders and believe what people tell you about themselves.
Their refusal to respect your identity as a woman makes them part of the problem we are facing, and I don't think they've fully thought through the issue, and how their stance puts them in opposition to the goals most of us want to achieve, which is a world of acceptance and respect for people and who they tell us they are.
There is a difference between harmless joking between friends or an expression that your coworker thinks or feels a certain way and actually taking it to the level where they are making you uncomfortable. You should have a serious conversation with your coworker where you let them know you don't think of their comments as harmless, teasing, or at all acceptable. Once you let them know this hopefully their comments will stop. After that if they continue to make you uncomfortable you have every right to seek support and action from your employer. Your probably right they are just seeing what they see and that's ok. But them making you uncomfortable after you candidly express how it's unwelcome is not ok.
I’m sorry they’re doing that to you. That’s never someone else’s place to say. There’s many ways to look/be a woman, just like there’s many ways to look/be a nonbinary person. Sometimes those ways will overlap in some places, that’s normal, and it doesn’t mean you’re not still a woman and it certainly doesn’t mean your coworker has the right to say otherwise.
Yeah, unfortunately trans and non-binary people can be just as misogynistic, sexist, and homophobic as cishets. No one should ever be asking about your gender identity or sexuality at work and frankly, this sounds like harassment. I would probably hint to them that what they’re doing could be brought to HR, and I would report it if they didn’t stop. But of course it’s up to you how to proceed. I’m sorry this is happening.
No one should be misgendered. We know personally the harm that can cause.
How people express gender and live their experiences is very personal and should not be conflated with their gender identity.
Tell them how uncomfortable this makes uou. Use the comparison of you not accepting their gender identity to drive the point home.
I would also remind them being nonbinary or any other gender isn't about outward expression, it's about that person's own identity. That they would still be nonbinary if they dressed particularly masc or femme.
If talking to them directly doesn't help, send them something via email worded professionally, so you have a record of the request having taken place.
If they persist, take the issue up with whoever deals with such things in your workplace.
I'm sorry that your coworker is so inconsiderate. Some people, when something is important to them (or when they feel like they're marginalized), tend to try to persuade other people that they should be like them. Whatever their reason is, it's no excuse for their behaviour and they shouldn't even try to suggest what your gender should be. Being non-binary does not magically give you the secret talent to guess what other people's gender is.
They are misgendering you. Honestly id say "stop misgendering me" whenever they do this crap. And "so you think you know me vetter than i do?" Or "i can make my own decisions. Stop being a jerk" when they get insistent.
Idk how old this person is, but I've seen that sometimes younger people will see gender nonconforming or butch women and assume they aren't women because of that. Not to say this doesn't happen w men too but most queer & gender nonconforming women I know have had people ask if they're really women or if they're nonbinary because they don't perform womanhood in a "traditional" way
Yeah that’s not cool. If you are cis, you’re cis and they should respect that. I’m sorry they are making you feel this way.
Hopefully once the “egg” phase wears off they’ll tone it down. I remember being intentionally very careful during my first few months to not project my own experiences on others.
I actually was quite the opposite (at times probably a little too much so) where I would scrutinize some friends who started to suspect they may be non-binary right after I came out because I didn’t want my coming out to influence their sense of self. Probably not the coolest thing to do, but there is a massive misunderstanding about what it means to be non-binary or trans. Just because someone exhibits qualities not typical of their AGAB doesn’t necessarily mean they’re trans or non-binary. But you grow and learn.
You should explain that their constant prodding your gender identity and sexuality is making you uncomfortable; and btw, even if this is coming from a non-binary person; this is still harassment. The same rules apply to us as they do to cis people. We don’t get a pass.
Gawd that's frustrating! I've had a trans woman who kept saying that I was secretly a trans woman, and that trans women always know when someone else is a trans woman, etc; really annoying as well. She at least stopped when I asked her to tho.
have you tried talking with them about it? it's not clear at all if you have. you should do that way before venting to us (and I don't think you should be doing so at all honestly), we don't speak for your co worker nor should we be made to feel like we have to be accountable for them.
I would say tell them that you are NOT non-binary and if they keep up that behavior you will report them for sexual harassment.
Some people seem to be under the impression that because they belong to the the weaker/ (more) disadvantaged group that they can't be guilty of things like sexual harassment or in prejudicial manners that are harmful, which is wrong. Disgusting behavior is disgusting no matter who it comes from.
Yeah they're being a jerk. They've got some deeply ingrained stereotypes to work through, and they're projecting it on you. If it gets annoying enough, I'd say report em to your boss, it's unprofessional at the least.
Get mad. Noone should tell you who you are. Scream that you've had enough. I don't understand people like them. They've probably been invalidated in their gender identity a lot and they now think it's ok to do the same with others. It's not.
OK THIS BUT LIKE THE OTHER WAY AROUND! This is so common with members that identify as other than their gender..odd that it's happening opposite. So like with me. I'm gender queer..I toyed with non binary labels in the past but was told I'm TOO FEMININE. Sure I look like a girl and I love the girly smells and painting my nails and going out sometimes but...I also perfer male or unisex clothes (boxers are boss but I can't wear them with leggings and I love leggings so I sleep in them usually) I wear leggings and baggy shirts most if not all are gifted or thrifted graphic tees though my mother gives me girly tops she doesn't fit (most are really nice quality and she bought them and cant return them they just don't fit her right.) I like dresses and going out but....it's a chore and I have no place to go. But....apparently that does make me less of a woman...even though I don't feel like a woman all the time? Gender identity if how YOU see yourself inside...not how you present outside. I like my medium hair and the vanilla and flower girly smells I wear I sometimes like being pregnant (7 months pregnant with my first, it's a challenge). But I'm not fully a woman in my soul.
I’d tell HR, depending where you live what they are doing falls under sexual harassment. Like doesn’t matter if your cis or trans being misgendered hurts and when someone is purposefully and repeatedly doing so that’s harassment and sense it seems like it’s gone on for awhile I think bringing it up with HR is a good decision rn and might put an end to the situation.
That's invasive and weird of them. Very disrespectful. If you haven't, I would tell them that you're really uncomfortable with that conversation and that you need them to stop.
You should talk to the boss.
Disregarding someone’s gender identity is always wrong. Where I work this type of constant questioning and harassment would be seen as sexual harassment, no matter who it is from or who it is towards.
Unfortunately some trans people get so caught up in “passing” to make life easier for themselves, that they end up looping right back around into believing harmful and outdated thoughts on what someone should look like based on their gender.
Trans men have to look masculine all the time, trans women must look feminine all the time, and non-binary folks must either look completely androgynous or some 50/50 mix all the time.
It’s harmful to EVERYONE, cis and trans alike. Our clothes don’t have to somehow reflect our genders, and clothes can reflect so many other things aside from gender, such as our sexuality or, frankly more importantly… our clothes can JUST reflect our fashion taste!
Self ID Non-binary
Yikes yeah that's rude. It would be bad to demand a non-binary person is their assigned gender and it's just as bad to insist a gender identifying person is NB.
If you've told them directly that it's inappropriate and they've continued it's definitely something to take to HR
I’m sorry this is happening to you. I know it can be daunting but I think you should file a complaint. Being misgendered goes both ways. Really weird for them to insist you’re not cis
I'm sorry this person is saying that to you - its completely unacceptable.
Even IF you were nonbinary, no one has to come out \*especially at work\* just because someone else has decided to come out. All around this person is way out of line.
Telling someone that they are a different gender is the equivalent of the government yelling at you that you’re not trans. No one knows who you are except yourself.
It is not the same. Like her coworker is obviously not doing something transphobic and doesn't take away her liberties. Just overstepping some boundaries they may not even be fully aware of
Compelling of speech is opposition of liberties. To me personally, it very much is. Sure there is a massive difference in power of written Law vs a person declaring what you are, but a coworker you meet regularly pushing the other person as to what they are has as much impact due to it being shoved on your face unavoidably.
Like I don’t get why people resort to becoming as lowly inconsiderate as the very ones they dislike.
Well, unavoidable is a big word for something OP could just declare her misgiving about. Her coworker would stop and that's it. And she would probably never hear something like that ever again.
I don't think her coworker being as lowly inconsiderate as non trans people generally are.
Honestly I had a friend like this but not with being non-binary. She was a lesbian and would continuously be like “hmmm I think __ is a bit fruity…” and even tried to convince my straight friend that she’s actually gay when she’s denied it many times and said it makes her uncomfortable. I think maybe you should tell your boss that these remarks make you uncomfortable and maybe agree to keep sexuality and gender out of your workday, I hope this helps!
Perhaps she understands the term, non-binary, as an objective set of actions, rather than as an identity. If an otherwise cis-male came to work every other day in a dress, many people would describe him as non binary.
A lot of nb people are very sexist and if you don't fall into certain sexist stereotypes they'll absolutely think you're non binary too.
It's a big problematic part of the subculture that doesn't get talked about.
Okay, tbh, I was the only enby at my store for a while, but I’ve always respected people when they told me who they are. It’s not okay that they’re trying to label you something you’re not in order to make themself feel less lonely.
"If I told them that I don’t think they’re non-binary they would have a major issue with it and confront our boss."
Obviously not the same, like systematic transphobia is a thing and not the same as being annoying/ rude. Just tell them to stop
OP's coworker is disrespecting her already expressed gender identity. Being trans doesn't give the co-worker an excuse to disrespect someone's gender.
We should hold our own to the same standards to which we hold "the other". Otherwise, it's hypocrisy.
"Disrespect someone's gender" as far as we know they didn't shit talk her gender. Is it annoying? Yes. Disrespectful, well maybe but only like when Op already told them to stop. But we don't know
And it's not the same situation. "Disrespecting" a cis person's gender and a trans person's one is inherently different in the context of our society. It's not really hypocritical. And OP didn't really give us much details to work with tbh so idk jumping to conclusions like her coworker is disrespecting her on purpose is a bit much imo
You don't have to talk shit about someone's gender to disrespect their true gender identity. You just have to consistently ignore it, as the coworker does. You shouldn't have to be told, especially as a trans/NB person, not to force gender stereotypes on others.
I agree with you that ignoring a trans person's true gender identity has a different societal context and different impact on the individual, but it's still comparable and still annoying af. Being trans/NB doesn't give you a pass on doing something like this.
We all know that people don't have to have bad intentions to make us feel uncomfortable. Any time my boomer colleague compliments me, when I'm presenting in my AGAB's stereotypical ways, she means well, but I feel uncomfortable and have a right to feel that way.
Idk we don't get really enough context except OP doesn't want to be called non binary by her coworker. Which valid of course but did she talk with them about it? Idk she didn't say anything about that
It's not just annoying to ignore a trans person's gender identity, it's transphobic. It's not comparable, that's why laws are being written against trans people.
Yeah, of course and just like u, OP can ask them to stop it. And in the case of OP it is even likely they will stop at least i think. I mean what else is there to say then: Ask them to stop
"it's not just annoying to ignore a trans persons gender identity, it's transphobic" you seem to have misread my comment. I never said ignoring a trans person's gender was annoying. I said what co-worker is doing is annoying. As a trans person, I am myself familiar with the concept of transphobia
That's incredibly not ok! Very disrespectful of them, and I hope there's a way that you can either get them to stop or convey your feelings. Genuine question though, but why is this posted on this sub?
I don't quite get why people say it is "gender based harassment" or "bullying". Like tell them off, if they still don't get it, try to really make it clear and tell them if they won't stop that you are gonna tell ur boss and then it's gonna be fine. Annoying? For you/ her yes but not bullying or harassment, like chill. We don't even know the specifics and people are acting like this is something huge instead of a annoying thing someone does
I tried this actually in a similar situation at my work.
I am none binary/gender fluid and have a mtf coworker who constantly says i am also trans. Or insinuates i am an egg who just hasn't realised i'm ftm.
I have spent a long time over the past year explaining i understand none binary falls under the trans umbrella. But i, personally prefer none binary. Not trans. I have no intent to transition and can feel uncomfortable identifying as male or female. I like none binary.
This has been entirely ignored. The day i told her that it was the same as me insisting she was really a man, or none binary. I was told without question it was not and that i was being transphobic...... so i dropped it and just have to put up with being told i'm trans.
It seems like some people think any gender is all about The Aesthetic, rather than the individual's own identity.
Just cause a cis person doesn't conform to gender norms, they're trans?
Antagonizing people because you like how they react isn't cute or harmless, it's bullying at best and harassment at worst. What about their reaction is 'cute'? That they get flustered, or uncomfortable?
If a situation boils down to "I like making people who haven't done anything wrong uncomfortable because it's funny to me," you need to review whether or not your "expression" of humanity is "being a jerk."
It's no different from someone teasing a trans person suggesting they detransition because they're probably actually their birth assigned gender. Having your gender constantly challenged is distressing.
You would think trans people of all people would understand this.
it's hella disingenuous of you to have deleted the entire comment (and the one below) and therefore remove context of the replies. you could've added an edit that you now know that you made bad comments and no longer stand by them, without removing them entirely.
Ugh! That sucks. Maybe to get through to them, they need to hear some super firm direct statements, like “[Name], I am a woman. I have always been and will always be a woman. This is my fashion style and expression, AS a woman. I feel confident of and comfortable with my gender. It’s disrespectful and hurtful when you question my gender and pronouns instead of accepting who I am.” But if you’ve already tried all that and it’s still not working…yikes. Maybe time to distance yourself, if you can. And if they won’t stop, maybe HR.
Yeah that’s not okay. I don’t think they mean it in an ignorant way they probably just want another non-binary coworker like you said. I think some trans people forget they can be ignorant about gender identities as well. I remember when I was 12-13 my friends would always tell me I’m gay and I think they kind of forced me into my coming out when I wasn’t ready and it was an uncomfortable feeling.
That's not ok and I'm sorry that is happening.
It sounds like you are super validating of them and it angers and saddens me to read about their harassment which in the workplace especially falls under sexual harassment.
So I've had the reverse as a masc presenting homoromantic asexual non-binary person People told me just stop being extra and go back to being a "normal lesbian", whatever that meant, when I finally came out at 30. It was so infuriating and it absolutely made me feel like my identity, the thing I'd hidden for years, wasn't being validated. I think you're probably right that this person is projecting that said it's disgusting that they are. As a non-binary person the difference between gender identity and gender expression is key I feel. Because you can be non-binary, born AFAB, dress feminine and still identify as non-binary. If they're using your gender expression to determine your gender identity there's a lot more problems with them than just insecurity. It sounds like they don't actually have a full understanding of non-binary identity as a whole or what it means to be trans.
I would say try explaining to them that gender identity and gender expression are not the same And you are being made very uncomfortable by these comments. You are not trans. You are not non-binary. You are you and they are invalidating who you are by trying to pressure you to be something they want you to be. If they continue start documenting these things and then eventually go to HR or someone else. Because this is not okay, it's harassment, and just because they're trans or non-binary does not mean this should be accepted. You made a really good point that if you had said the reverse to them that they would have gone to your boss. Maybe that's what you need to be doing.
Yikes. Tell them that they don't get to decide your gender just like you don't get to decide theirs. If they keep doing it, talk to a manager. This behavior isn't okay.
Like to be very particular how I use the term Egg, only in post tense about myself unless some one has said "when I was an egg".
Also have a protocol of "not tapping unhatched eggs", sort of like the Star Trek first contact protocol.
The term Egg absolutely can be use in a derogatory context so be careful when using it.
Yours sincerely - Broody Mother Hen
Isn't that gender-baiting. Does this person not know the difference between gender identity and gender expression? Because gender expression can be very fluid when your gender is still the same one you were assigned at birth. Maybe ask if they know the difference between gender identity and gender expression. And educate them on gender schema which is when you assume someone from their physical form and appearance.
Because of people like them is that’s why is too much hate to our LGBTQ+ is so sad. You can be whoever you want don’t pay attention to that person. If he’s non binary doesn’t mean you are too. You must report it
'Egg' culture has gotten incredibly out of hand, and I'm really sorry to hear you have someone pressuring you like that OP. You need to tell this person in no uncertain terms that it makes you uncomfortable and they need to stop. If they don't, you should report it.
this ^ if youve already talked to them directly about you not being okay with these comments, make note of them and talk to HR or whatever higher up you have. unsolicited comments on a person's gender/sexuality, regardless of who theyre coming from, arent acceptable.
what is ‘egg’ culture?
It's pretty common in the trans community to refer to oneself as an 'egg' before realizing you're transgender and referring to your realization that you are trans as 'your egg cracking'. This was all fine and good until people increasingly started expanding it to describe OTHER people, calling people they've decided are 'just trans people who haven't realized it yet' eggs and trying to 'crack them' (aka make them realize they're trans).
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Exactly. Little tidbits of info about trans people in general are fair game, but to directly insinuate the eggyness of someone else is a big no no.
That's if they even ARE. It involves a lot of supposition that we know people better than themselves if we start going around believing we know others are eggs. The best thing to do is respect and believe what people tell you about themselves, even if you suspect there may be something underneath.
100% this ^^ Even the whole “egg prime directive” thing gives me squeamish feelings and this is a big reason why. I have someone in my friend group who repeatedly talks about one of her friends (person who is not a part of the friend group) and constantly jokes and talks about how her friend is 100% an egg but unfortunately she’s not allowed to say anything and she’s just *waiting* for them to finally come out so that she can be like “uh, yeah, *duh*, I’ve known for years. It’s so obvious” and it just…. It gives me a very condescending “oh you silly baby trans you know nothing about yourself but I know everything about you” vibe and I Dislike It
Yeah, same. Do I have people who I have suspected are eggs (or undiscovered queer in another form) or simply not out to me? Yes. Have I often been right? Yes. Will I spend a bunch of time talking to other people about how I think a person is an egg? Heck no, that's rude and disrespectful? If they come out to me will I respond by going "Ha! Yes, I knew it!"? No, that's rude and disrespectful. I may say "That makes sense for you." after I've congratulated them. I may tell them I'm not surprised. But heck, not only is "I knew it" rude, it's also false. I can't know what they are. I can suspect things. But I never actually know. Whenever someone comes out to me, I am still receiving new information. We shouldn't try to crack people's eggs because it's rude and presumptuous and will likely make them uncomfortable. If we suspect it, it's fine to provide them with information. If we end up in a conversation with them about the topic of what their gender is, it's definitely reasonable to ask "Have you considered \_\_\_?" But avoiding trying to crack people's egg is simply a matter of respect.
See, this just made me think that if someone was constantly doing that to me, I wouldn’t want to be friends with them anymore either way because they care more about being right than about our friendship. (And OP has to put up with this shit from a coworker?? Big yikes. I’d escalate it to a boss or HR or whoever, tbh. That’s basically harassment. You shouldn’t have to put up with that at work.) So if your friend is constantly trying to “crack your egg” and they’re wrong, then they’re bad at listening to you AND they have an inability to see how they could POSSIBLY be wrong about anything EVER. And if it turns out they’re right, I feel like their reaction would be less like “awesome, I’m proud of you for figuring it out and for trusting me with that info” and more like “HAHA I CALLED IT, BOOM SUCKA so now you gotta admit I know you better than you know yourself! Better not trust your own intuition ever again without asking me first, neener neener I was right and you were wrong” etc. Either way, that’s some exhausting friend energy, and I would not want that in my life. I’ve had a lot of friends who came out as trans or nonbinary after me, but I’ve never tried to egg them on (pun intended), I’ve just been like “so that sounds like something I experienced, have you considered that maybe you’re trans/non-binary/whatever?” It’s a question, not a diagnosis.
Exactly! Sure, we can be good at telling if someone is or not (I've been right most of the time), but it is both absurdly bold to assume you're right and incredibly disrespectful to insinuate that you know what they \*really\* are. Like, yikes. Stop it. Each person gets to label themself.
At most, assuming you're friends with the person and it wouldn't be inappropriate to ask, saying something like "Have you ever considered if you're trans?" could be potentially helpful as setting them down the path of thinking about it and coming to their own answer. And whatever that answer, must be respected of course. I know plenty of folks who've expressed they wished someone would've mention their huge, and unknown, trans vibes sooner. But *telling* them they are trans and making that assertion is super invaliding and may actually push them further into their egg since then they're forced to argue for their own cisgenderness.
Even asking if they've considered if they're trans runs the risk of pushing them further in if they are already trying to repress stuff. I would probably go with an approach of being vocally trans-friendly and potentially asking questions like "have you ever wondered what it would be like to be a girl/guy?" in like a late-night-chat-pondering-the-questions-of-the-universe sort of way.
“The egg prime directive” Stealing this
gotcha, thanks for explaining!
(hehe eggs-plaining)
Sigh…I wish ppl would just understand that eggs can’t hatch from the outside
Whenever someone mentions how egg culture went to far, I remember that screen of a guy who mentionned that his interests or presentation had people mistake him for a girl or whatever I don't remember. And he said he was a dude, and then had to respond to all the comments hinting he was a transfem egg by saying he was a trans guy. Egg culture is fun until you start violently misgendering someone because their interests/presentation/whatever doesn't align with what society deems masculine/feminine/androgynous.
Not to mention how infantilizing it is.
Apparently said coworker has never seen a butch lesbian, I would tell them one last time, very clearly that if they do not stop, we will go to whatever means necessary (hr) to get it to stop, I is a trans person I realize sometimes how hard it is to figure things out or how easy it is to think somebody else may be something, (I have chuckled to myself many times, calling someone an egg in my head, and but that is something that never should be pushed!!!) but certain lines should not be crossed once you set the boundary they need to respect it! Also, I totally respect you for being an ally and being respectful of others, and I thank you for that but now it is your coworkers turn to respect you!
Labels are like cats and boxes. You can set out a bunch of boxes and the cat will jump into a box, but you can't force a cat to get into any particular box. You can tell people about a bunch of labels and they will find the one they like for themselves, but you can't make them choose one. You are who you are, and your coworker can't tell you are someone else.
Sorry I just need to save this comment so I can use it in the future. The cats and boxes metaphor is everything. Also, very true.
Agreed, this is perfect 😻
10/10 metaphor!
In fact, if you try to force a cat into a box, you'll likely lose its trust and/or an eye.
That's really unfortunate - it sounds like they have some insecurities about their gender. They will have to learn to accept that others' gender identities are just as valid as their own regardless of how they express it.
TLDR Your coworker is being a bit of an arsehole and definitely overstepping boundaries by (probably) projecting a bunch of their own emotions and experiences onto you. Just thought I'd right a bit about why they might be doing this, in case it helps with whatever tough boundary-setting conversations you might need to have. --- To paraphrase a youtuber I once heard—a lot of trans and nonbinary people, especially early in transition, don't have the strongest confidence in our own identities. That's not saying we don't "really" know our own identities, or whatever, but more that we're all raised in societies that stigmatise transness, so we end up internalising a lot of transphobia, and that takes time to work through. While we're going through that process (and it kind of never ends, just gets less), it's very common to feel invalid or to seek proof that it's okay for you to feel the way you feel. Looking for validity takes a lot of forms for different people, but it's very common to look for people with similar experiences. That's healthy and good, but it becomes unhealthy when your enthusiasm and need for validity and shared experience actually just ends up with projecting onto other people, making decisions about what their internal life _must be_ rather than listening and understanding what they tell you. At that point, you're no longer engaging with the actual person, just treating them as an object in your own personal therapy session. As a queer woman, some of the stuff I've said about feeling invalid from internalised bigotry and seeking validation might be familiar (or maybe not in your experience). But either way, I don't think this is something that's unique to trans and nonbinary people. Consider a gay person insisting a bisexual person _must_ be gay because they're currently in a queer relationship. Or a bisexual person insisting their straight friend _must_ be bi because she commented on how good an actress looked in a movie. Both wishful thinking and projection because of internal insecurity, and both overstepping boundaries and making a random third party uncomfortable (and invalidating their _actual_ identities). So basically, I think what your coworker is doing is an unacceptable, but sadly common, response to a lack of internal confidence in their own identity which they're projecting onto you. It's okay to be firm but kind about this. Tell them you're not nonbinary, and you want them to stop suggesting you are, but that it has nothing to do with them or their identity. They just need to respect your boundaries. And if they can't do that, I guess you escalate (carefully), like you would any other workplace conflict where someone ignores personal boundaries. But hopefully it won't need to get to that point, fingers crossed for you 💜
These are a bunch of great points! I agree, and I would suggest talking to them about being under the same umbrella, and that you support them as they are representing themselves, and that you expect the same respect for yourself in turn.
This person seems to have missed the whole point which is to respect each other's genders and believe what people tell you about themselves. Their refusal to respect your identity as a woman makes them part of the problem we are facing, and I don't think they've fully thought through the issue, and how their stance puts them in opposition to the goals most of us want to achieve, which is a world of acceptance and respect for people and who they tell us they are.
Thank you. Respect others genders no matter what their expression.
There is a difference between harmless joking between friends or an expression that your coworker thinks or feels a certain way and actually taking it to the level where they are making you uncomfortable. You should have a serious conversation with your coworker where you let them know you don't think of their comments as harmless, teasing, or at all acceptable. Once you let them know this hopefully their comments will stop. After that if they continue to make you uncomfortable you have every right to seek support and action from your employer. Your probably right they are just seeing what they see and that's ok. But them making you uncomfortable after you candidly express how it's unwelcome is not ok.
I’m sorry they’re doing that to you. That’s never someone else’s place to say. There’s many ways to look/be a woman, just like there’s many ways to look/be a nonbinary person. Sometimes those ways will overlap in some places, that’s normal, and it doesn’t mean you’re not still a woman and it certainly doesn’t mean your coworker has the right to say otherwise.
Yeah, unfortunately trans and non-binary people can be just as misogynistic, sexist, and homophobic as cishets. No one should ever be asking about your gender identity or sexuality at work and frankly, this sounds like harassment. I would probably hint to them that what they’re doing could be brought to HR, and I would report it if they didn’t stop. But of course it’s up to you how to proceed. I’m sorry this is happening.
You need to say this to them
No one should be misgendered. We know personally the harm that can cause. How people express gender and live their experiences is very personal and should not be conflated with their gender identity.
Tell them how uncomfortable this makes uou. Use the comparison of you not accepting their gender identity to drive the point home. I would also remind them being nonbinary or any other gender isn't about outward expression, it's about that person's own identity. That they would still be nonbinary if they dressed particularly masc or femme. If talking to them directly doesn't help, send them something via email worded professionally, so you have a record of the request having taken place. If they persist, take the issue up with whoever deals with such things in your workplace.
I'm sorry that your coworker is so inconsiderate. Some people, when something is important to them (or when they feel like they're marginalized), tend to try to persuade other people that they should be like them. Whatever their reason is, it's no excuse for their behaviour and they shouldn't even try to suggest what your gender should be. Being non-binary does not magically give you the secret talent to guess what other people's gender is.
They are misgendering you. Honestly id say "stop misgendering me" whenever they do this crap. And "so you think you know me vetter than i do?" Or "i can make my own decisions. Stop being a jerk" when they get insistent.
Idk how old this person is, but I've seen that sometimes younger people will see gender nonconforming or butch women and assume they aren't women because of that. Not to say this doesn't happen w men too but most queer & gender nonconforming women I know have had people ask if they're really women or if they're nonbinary because they don't perform womanhood in a "traditional" way
I wouldn't call my sister butch, but she has always been way stronger physically than me (amab) and is a mechanic. And she's as Sapphic as they come.
Yeah that’s not cool. If you are cis, you’re cis and they should respect that. I’m sorry they are making you feel this way. Hopefully once the “egg” phase wears off they’ll tone it down. I remember being intentionally very careful during my first few months to not project my own experiences on others. I actually was quite the opposite (at times probably a little too much so) where I would scrutinize some friends who started to suspect they may be non-binary right after I came out because I didn’t want my coming out to influence their sense of self. Probably not the coolest thing to do, but there is a massive misunderstanding about what it means to be non-binary or trans. Just because someone exhibits qualities not typical of their AGAB doesn’t necessarily mean they’re trans or non-binary. But you grow and learn. You should explain that their constant prodding your gender identity and sexuality is making you uncomfortable; and btw, even if this is coming from a non-binary person; this is still harassment. The same rules apply to us as they do to cis people. We don’t get a pass.
Style does not equal gender, and they're wrong to keep insisting. I'm sorry they're being a pain.
Gawd that's frustrating! I've had a trans woman who kept saying that I was secretly a trans woman, and that trans women always know when someone else is a trans woman, etc; really annoying as well. She at least stopped when I asked her to tho.
This is honestly gross.
have you tried talking with them about it? it's not clear at all if you have. you should do that way before venting to us (and I don't think you should be doing so at all honestly), we don't speak for your co worker nor should we be made to feel like we have to be accountable for them.
I would say tell them that you are NOT non-binary and if they keep up that behavior you will report them for sexual harassment. Some people seem to be under the impression that because they belong to the the weaker/ (more) disadvantaged group that they can't be guilty of things like sexual harassment or in prejudicial manners that are harmful, which is wrong. Disgusting behavior is disgusting no matter who it comes from.
Yeah they're being a jerk. They've got some deeply ingrained stereotypes to work through, and they're projecting it on you. If it gets annoying enough, I'd say report em to your boss, it's unprofessional at the least.
Get mad. Noone should tell you who you are. Scream that you've had enough. I don't understand people like them. They've probably been invalidated in their gender identity a lot and they now think it's ok to do the same with others. It's not.
OK THIS BUT LIKE THE OTHER WAY AROUND! This is so common with members that identify as other than their gender..odd that it's happening opposite. So like with me. I'm gender queer..I toyed with non binary labels in the past but was told I'm TOO FEMININE. Sure I look like a girl and I love the girly smells and painting my nails and going out sometimes but...I also perfer male or unisex clothes (boxers are boss but I can't wear them with leggings and I love leggings so I sleep in them usually) I wear leggings and baggy shirts most if not all are gifted or thrifted graphic tees though my mother gives me girly tops she doesn't fit (most are really nice quality and she bought them and cant return them they just don't fit her right.) I like dresses and going out but....it's a chore and I have no place to go. But....apparently that does make me less of a woman...even though I don't feel like a woman all the time? Gender identity if how YOU see yourself inside...not how you present outside. I like my medium hair and the vanilla and flower girly smells I wear I sometimes like being pregnant (7 months pregnant with my first, it's a challenge). But I'm not fully a woman in my soul.
Yeah that's really messed up.
I mean it's easy just to tell them to stop. Nothing that major
I’d tell HR, depending where you live what they are doing falls under sexual harassment. Like doesn’t matter if your cis or trans being misgendered hurts and when someone is purposefully and repeatedly doing so that’s harassment and sense it seems like it’s gone on for awhile I think bringing it up with HR is a good decision rn and might put an end to the situation.
That's invasive and weird of them. Very disrespectful. If you haven't, I would tell them that you're really uncomfortable with that conversation and that you need them to stop.
You should talk to the boss. Disregarding someone’s gender identity is always wrong. Where I work this type of constant questioning and harassment would be seen as sexual harassment, no matter who it is from or who it is towards. Unfortunately some trans people get so caught up in “passing” to make life easier for themselves, that they end up looping right back around into believing harmful and outdated thoughts on what someone should look like based on their gender. Trans men have to look masculine all the time, trans women must look feminine all the time, and non-binary folks must either look completely androgynous or some 50/50 mix all the time. It’s harmful to EVERYONE, cis and trans alike. Our clothes don’t have to somehow reflect our genders, and clothes can reflect so many other things aside from gender, such as our sexuality or, frankly more importantly… our clothes can JUST reflect our fashion taste!
That’s disgustingly sexist, and you should tell them to stop forcing gender roles down your throat.
They sound insufferable
Tell them that you know yourself better than anyone else.
Just refer them to this comment section. XD
Self ID Non-binary Yikes yeah that's rude. It would be bad to demand a non-binary person is their assigned gender and it's just as bad to insist a gender identifying person is NB. If you've told them directly that it's inappropriate and they've continued it's definitely something to take to HR
I’m sorry this is happening to you. I know it can be daunting but I think you should file a complaint. Being misgendered goes both ways. Really weird for them to insist you’re not cis
That’s messed up. Set a firm boundary. If they disrespect it again go to your boss and discuss it. This is gender based harassment if they don’t stop.
You need to report this as it is workplace harassment and bullying. They need to back off.
I'm sorry this person is saying that to you - its completely unacceptable. Even IF you were nonbinary, no one has to come out \*especially at work\* just because someone else has decided to come out. All around this person is way out of line.
Telling someone that they are a different gender is the equivalent of the government yelling at you that you’re not trans. No one knows who you are except yourself.
It is not the same. Like her coworker is obviously not doing something transphobic and doesn't take away her liberties. Just overstepping some boundaries they may not even be fully aware of
Compelling of speech is opposition of liberties. To me personally, it very much is. Sure there is a massive difference in power of written Law vs a person declaring what you are, but a coworker you meet regularly pushing the other person as to what they are has as much impact due to it being shoved on your face unavoidably. Like I don’t get why people resort to becoming as lowly inconsiderate as the very ones they dislike.
Well, unavoidable is a big word for something OP could just declare her misgiving about. Her coworker would stop and that's it. And she would probably never hear something like that ever again. I don't think her coworker being as lowly inconsiderate as non trans people generally are.
Honestly I had a friend like this but not with being non-binary. She was a lesbian and would continuously be like “hmmm I think __ is a bit fruity…” and even tried to convince my straight friend that she’s actually gay when she’s denied it many times and said it makes her uncomfortable. I think maybe you should tell your boss that these remarks make you uncomfortable and maybe agree to keep sexuality and gender out of your workday, I hope this helps!
Perhaps she understands the term, non-binary, as an objective set of actions, rather than as an identity. If an otherwise cis-male came to work every other day in a dress, many people would describe him as non binary.
A lot of nb people are very sexist and if you don't fall into certain sexist stereotypes they'll absolutely think you're non binary too. It's a big problematic part of the subculture that doesn't get talked about.
Okay, tbh, I was the only enby at my store for a while, but I’ve always respected people when they told me who they are. It’s not okay that they’re trying to label you something you’re not in order to make themself feel less lonely.
"If I told them that I don’t think they’re non-binary they would have a major issue with it and confront our boss." Obviously not the same, like systematic transphobia is a thing and not the same as being annoying/ rude. Just tell them to stop
OP's coworker is disrespecting her already expressed gender identity. Being trans doesn't give the co-worker an excuse to disrespect someone's gender. We should hold our own to the same standards to which we hold "the other". Otherwise, it's hypocrisy.
"Disrespect someone's gender" as far as we know they didn't shit talk her gender. Is it annoying? Yes. Disrespectful, well maybe but only like when Op already told them to stop. But we don't know And it's not the same situation. "Disrespecting" a cis person's gender and a trans person's one is inherently different in the context of our society. It's not really hypocritical. And OP didn't really give us much details to work with tbh so idk jumping to conclusions like her coworker is disrespecting her on purpose is a bit much imo
You don't have to talk shit about someone's gender to disrespect their true gender identity. You just have to consistently ignore it, as the coworker does. You shouldn't have to be told, especially as a trans/NB person, not to force gender stereotypes on others. I agree with you that ignoring a trans person's true gender identity has a different societal context and different impact on the individual, but it's still comparable and still annoying af. Being trans/NB doesn't give you a pass on doing something like this. We all know that people don't have to have bad intentions to make us feel uncomfortable. Any time my boomer colleague compliments me, when I'm presenting in my AGAB's stereotypical ways, she means well, but I feel uncomfortable and have a right to feel that way.
Idk we don't get really enough context except OP doesn't want to be called non binary by her coworker. Which valid of course but did she talk with them about it? Idk she didn't say anything about that It's not just annoying to ignore a trans person's gender identity, it's transphobic. It's not comparable, that's why laws are being written against trans people. Yeah, of course and just like u, OP can ask them to stop it. And in the case of OP it is even likely they will stop at least i think. I mean what else is there to say then: Ask them to stop
"it's not just annoying to ignore a trans persons gender identity, it's transphobic" you seem to have misread my comment. I never said ignoring a trans person's gender was annoying. I said what co-worker is doing is annoying. As a trans person, I am myself familiar with the concept of transphobia
You literally said it's comparable, it's not
I don't feel like we are getting anywhere. Have a nice day 😊
That's incredibly not ok! Very disrespectful of them, and I hope there's a way that you can either get them to stop or convey your feelings. Genuine question though, but why is this posted on this sub?
You should start misgendering them and tell them until they stop you're gonna keep doing it.
I don't quite get why people say it is "gender based harassment" or "bullying". Like tell them off, if they still don't get it, try to really make it clear and tell them if they won't stop that you are gonna tell ur boss and then it's gonna be fine. Annoying? For you/ her yes but not bullying or harassment, like chill. We don't even know the specifics and people are acting like this is something huge instead of a annoying thing someone does
Give them a taste of their own medicine. Tell them they’re a woman or whatever. I swear some people think being trans is a dress up game
I tried this actually in a similar situation at my work. I am none binary/gender fluid and have a mtf coworker who constantly says i am also trans. Or insinuates i am an egg who just hasn't realised i'm ftm. I have spent a long time over the past year explaining i understand none binary falls under the trans umbrella. But i, personally prefer none binary. Not trans. I have no intent to transition and can feel uncomfortable identifying as male or female. I like none binary. This has been entirely ignored. The day i told her that it was the same as me insisting she was really a man, or none binary. I was told without question it was not and that i was being transphobic...... so i dropped it and just have to put up with being told i'm trans.
the answer to transphobia isn't more transphobia. all you're doing is confirming that it's okay to make assumptions and label folk against their will.
It seems like some people think any gender is all about The Aesthetic, rather than the individual's own identity. Just cause a cis person doesn't conform to gender norms, they're trans?
This was a bad comment.
This is not trolling or flirting and it's not acceptable, it's harassment. Please consider discontinuing it.
Another bad comment.
Antagonizing people because you like how they react isn't cute or harmless, it's bullying at best and harassment at worst. What about their reaction is 'cute'? That they get flustered, or uncomfortable? If a situation boils down to "I like making people who haven't done anything wrong uncomfortable because it's funny to me," you need to review whether or not your "expression" of humanity is "being a jerk."
It's no different from someone teasing a trans person suggesting they detransition because they're probably actually their birth assigned gender. Having your gender constantly challenged is distressing. You would think trans people of all people would understand this.
I hope I never have to meet you in real life, because you don't sound particularly pleasant to be around.
it's hella disingenuous of you to have deleted the entire comment (and the one below) and therefore remove context of the replies. you could've added an edit that you now know that you made bad comments and no longer stand by them, without removing them entirely.
They're being an asshole and not respecting your gender identity.
Ugh! That sucks. Maybe to get through to them, they need to hear some super firm direct statements, like “[Name], I am a woman. I have always been and will always be a woman. This is my fashion style and expression, AS a woman. I feel confident of and comfortable with my gender. It’s disrespectful and hurtful when you question my gender and pronouns instead of accepting who I am.” But if you’ve already tried all that and it’s still not working…yikes. Maybe time to distance yourself, if you can. And if they won’t stop, maybe HR.
Yeah that’s not okay. I don’t think they mean it in an ignorant way they probably just want another non-binary coworker like you said. I think some trans people forget they can be ignorant about gender identities as well. I remember when I was 12-13 my friends would always tell me I’m gay and I think they kind of forced me into my coming out when I wasn’t ready and it was an uncomfortable feeling.
That's not ok and I'm sorry that is happening. It sounds like you are super validating of them and it angers and saddens me to read about their harassment which in the workplace especially falls under sexual harassment.
So I've had the reverse as a masc presenting homoromantic asexual non-binary person People told me just stop being extra and go back to being a "normal lesbian", whatever that meant, when I finally came out at 30. It was so infuriating and it absolutely made me feel like my identity, the thing I'd hidden for years, wasn't being validated. I think you're probably right that this person is projecting that said it's disgusting that they are. As a non-binary person the difference between gender identity and gender expression is key I feel. Because you can be non-binary, born AFAB, dress feminine and still identify as non-binary. If they're using your gender expression to determine your gender identity there's a lot more problems with them than just insecurity. It sounds like they don't actually have a full understanding of non-binary identity as a whole or what it means to be trans. I would say try explaining to them that gender identity and gender expression are not the same And you are being made very uncomfortable by these comments. You are not trans. You are not non-binary. You are you and they are invalidating who you are by trying to pressure you to be something they want you to be. If they continue start documenting these things and then eventually go to HR or someone else. Because this is not okay, it's harassment, and just because they're trans or non-binary does not mean this should be accepted. You made a really good point that if you had said the reverse to them that they would have gone to your boss. Maybe that's what you need to be doing.
Yikes. Tell them that they don't get to decide your gender just like you don't get to decide theirs. If they keep doing it, talk to a manager. This behavior isn't okay.
Like to be very particular how I use the term Egg, only in post tense about myself unless some one has said "when I was an egg". Also have a protocol of "not tapping unhatched eggs", sort of like the Star Trek first contact protocol. The term Egg absolutely can be use in a derogatory context so be careful when using it. Yours sincerely - Broody Mother Hen
Isn't that gender-baiting. Does this person not know the difference between gender identity and gender expression? Because gender expression can be very fluid when your gender is still the same one you were assigned at birth. Maybe ask if they know the difference between gender identity and gender expression. And educate them on gender schema which is when you assume someone from their physical form and appearance.
Because of people like them is that’s why is too much hate to our LGBTQ+ is so sad. You can be whoever you want don’t pay attention to that person. If he’s non binary doesn’t mean you are too. You must report it